RERUN - S2E6: "War & Peace" with Robin Green and Mitch Burgess

Summary

Northern Disclosure – RERUN S2E6: “War & Peace” with Robin Green and Mitch Burgess

Podcast: Northern Disclosure (Evergreen Podcasts)
Hosts: Janine Turner & Rob O'Connell
Guests: Robin Green & Mitch Burgess (Writers/Producers)
Original Air: January 27, 2026 (Rerun of S2E6 discussion)
Episode: “War & Peace” (Northern Exposure, S2E6)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Northern Disclosure delves into “War & Peace,” a standout second-season episode of Northern Exposure. Hosts Janine Turner and Rob O'Connell are joined by writers Robin Green and Mitch Burgess to unpack the episode’s literary layers, unique behind-the-scenes stories, and how an ensemble of literary-minded creatives made Cicely, Alaska, feel both profound and quirky.

The conversation covers:

• The thematic dualities and literary references woven through the episode
• The writing process and the creative culture behind Northern Exposure
• The famous “breaking of the fourth wall” moment
• Reflections on collaboration, community, and the show’s enduring legacy

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode Structure & Plot Highlights

• Plot Recap:
  Dr. Joel Fleischman prescribes Valium to Holling for nightmares; the Russian pop singer Nikolai visits Cicely to organize the town's annual Russian festival, leading to patriotic conflicts and a literal duel with Maurice. Chris holds an annual reading of “War and Peace,” interspersed with commentary; Ed gets involved with a farm girl (Lightfeather), sparking musings on love and literature.

  • [03:06]

• Notable Guest Stars:
  Dana Anderson (“Lightfeather”) and Ilya Baskin (Nikolai) are singled out for bringing authenticity and playful energy to their roles.

  • [02:51]

2. Literary Devices, Duality, and Meta-Layers

• Duality and Parallel Universes:
  Janine Turner frames the episode as a meditation on dualities—literal (the duel) and metaphorical (parallel universes, literary references mirroring Cicely’s narrative).

  • [04:52][05:19][08:54]
    • “Everything was about this sort of parallel universe, the duality and the level of literature references.” — Janine Turner [05:19]
    • “In this parallel universe we call reality, we've scripted in our own duel.” — Reference to a Chris line; quoted by Janine [05:19]

• Weaving Literature Into Small-Town Life:
  Writers filled scripts with references—Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Dr. Zhivago, Machu Picchu, the Acropolis, Henry Miller, Baudelaire—highlighting the show’s unique blend of poetic prose and everyday Alaska.

  • [05:56][07:04][07:45]
    • “He talks about Henry Miller. And Baudelaire had a really great thing with the white cat fur.” — Janine Turner [07:04]

• Fourth Wall Break:
  The infamous scene where characters step out of the narrative to discuss the plot, but still call each other by character names, is dissected. The meta-device worked tonally but confused actors at the time, heightening the episode’s theme of dual realities.

  • [20:38][22:35][24:32]
    • “When we broke the fourth wall, we still referred to each other as Fleischman and O'Connell. …I remember that confusing me at the time…” — Janine Turner [21:37]
    • “It shouldn't have worked, but it really works. I bought it. …it seemed interesting.” — Robin Green [24:21]
    • “As far as I remember, that was the only time we ever did that.” — Rob O'Connell [25:23]

3. The Writers’ Room and Creative Process

• Origins & Team Dynamics:
  Robin Green shares her journey from Rolling Stone Magazine (and Marvel!) to Northern Exposure, her collaboration with Henry Brummell and meeting Mitch at the Iowa Writers Workshop.

  • [09:16][10:12]
    • “Robin originally worked for Stan Lee… and then she was the Only Girl at Rolling Stone. …She went on to write for us, then for The Sopranos, and created Blue Bloods.” — Rob O'Connell [09:16]
    • “My life started again [at the Writers Workshop]. I met Mitch, I met Henry. …all the people who I would spend my life with, other writers who supported [me].” — Robin Green [13:18]

• Collaboration and Unintentional Themes:
  The writers often didn't begin with explicit themes—“one thing might lead to another,” but the layers of meaning (duality, literature) arose organically.

  • [27:44][30:27][30:41]
    • “I don't think we ever did things thematically.” — Robin Green [30:07]
    • “The depth of the analysis that Janine is bringing to it… we were just putting words…” — Robin Green [30:41]

• Punch-Ups, Rewrites, and Shared Credit:
  Scripts often underwent uncredited rewrites for tone, continuity, or depth, with original writers still honored in credits.

  • [37:19][38:16][38:57]
    • “But we had a hand in others… rewriting, probably punching up something…” — Mitch Burgess [37:19]
    • “Josh was really good about always honoring the original writer with a credit.” — Robin Green [38:16]

• Literary Writers vs. TV Writers:
  The staff’s literary backgrounds (not film school) gave Northern Exposure its rich, poetic dialogue.

  • [39:32][39:42]
    • "You weren't out of USC film school to be a television writer." — Janine Turner [39:34]
    • “We were literary writers, and I think that really comes across.” — Janine Turner [39:47]

4. Behind-the-Scenes Anecdotes & Reflections

• Community and Set Atmosphere:
  The ensemble’s chemistry and Cicely’s town feel are echoed in real-life camaraderie among cast and crew.

  • [31:24][34:27]
    • “It's just that sense of community. Don't you. Don't you yearn for it?” — Janine Turner [34:27]
    • “That's why the Brick so works so well for the show, because he could bring everybody together.” — Mitch Burgess [34:49]

• Director Praise:
  Bill D’Elia is credited with capturing subtle actor moments and lending the episode its signature tone.

  • [34:54][35:30]

• Research Before the Internet:
  Writers recall time spent in libraries and hunting for stock footage, a much more analog process than today’s Google-fueled scripting.

  • [04:11][42:10][42:32]
    • “Before anyone could just go to Google and just like Dostoevsky, …those things weren't easy to find.” — Janine Turner [04:11]

• Stories About Iconic Episodes:
  The writers reminisce about episodes like “Burning Down the House,” shared rewriting duties, and production hurdles (e.g., heavy ADR fixes for episodes where dialog didn’t originally fit).

  • [47:18][49:31]
    • “Mitch…thought of the idea where Maurice had a Korean son. …And Burning down the House. …I took those three ideas to Josh as my own.” — Robin Green [48:01]

5. Enduring Legacy & Tonal Identity

• Northern Exposure’s Universe: Benevolent or Non-Judgmental? The team debates whether the show’s “big heart” comes from a benevolent or a non-judgmental universe, touching on creator intent and comparisons to later writers (notably David Chase of The Sopranos).

  • [43:05]
    • “It wasn’t a benevolent universe, he thought of it as… a non-judgmental universe.” — Rob O'Connell on Josh Brand’s view [43:44]
    • “If you think it [non-judgment] comes from benevolence… then it's benevolent.” — Janine Turner [44:00]

• The Show’s Timelessness Hosts and guests reflect on how Northern Exposure maintains its relevance, warmth, and artistic merit decades later.

  • “It holds up. Rob and I talk about that a lot. That the show really… Even aesthetically, it holds up, which we find fascinating.” — Janine Turner & Rob O'Connell [51:24][51:29]

• International Fandom & Literary Impact Robin Green’s book tour in Spain revealed an ongoing, global passion for the show under its translated title “Doctor in Alaska,” underscoring Northern Exposure’s worldwide cultural footprint.

  • [16:32]
    • “They brought me DVD sets to sign. You know, who even has a DVD these days? It was very sweet.” — Robin Green [17:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Quote | Speaker | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------|-------------| | “In this parallel universe we call reality, we've scripted in our own duel.” | (Chris, quoted by Janine) | [05:19] | | “Everything was about this sort of parallel universe, the duality and the level of literature references.” | Janine Turner | [05:19] | | “It shouldn't have worked, but it really works. I bought it. In other words, it seemed organic.” | Robin Green | [24:21] | | “You weren't out of USC film school to be a television writer. …You were literary writers, and I think that really comes across.” | Janine Turner | [39:34] | | “Josh was really good about always honoring the original writer with a credit.” | Robin Green | [38:16] | | “Our hands are in more…but we had a hand in others. …rewriting, probably punching up something.” | Mitch Burgess | [37:19] | | “I love the chess scene. …The show could slow down to that extent.” | Robin Green | [33:51] | | “If I'm not my character, if I'm talking about the show as if I'm outside of it objectively, but yet I'm… referencing people’s character names… It was so hard to get our heads around.” | Rob O'Connell | [23:08] | | “That's why the Brick so works so well for the show, because he could bring everybody together.” | Mitch Burgess | [34:49] | | “It was never ordinary about the scripts. …The dialogue was rich.” | Janine Turner | [40:43] | | “We delighted in the writing of it, and we delighted in the show. It was really fun…” | Robin Green | [41:01] | | “It wasn’t a benevolent universe, he thought of it as… a non-judgmental universe.” | Rob O'Connell | [43:44] |

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Timestamps for Essential Segments

• [03:02] Plot Overview & Cast
• [05:19] Parallel Universes & The Literary Duel
• [09:16] Robin Green’s Writing Journey (Rolling Stone to TV)
• [13:18] Iowa Writers’ Workshop Meets TV
• [20:38] Setting up the Duel / Breaking the Fourth Wall Discussion
• [31:24] Reflections on Community—Both On Screen and Off
• [34:54] Directing, Bill D’Elia’s Impact
• [37:19] Writing, Rewrites, and Credits
• [42:10] Script Research Before Internet
• [43:05] Benevolent vs. Non-Judgmental Universe / Creator Intent
• [47:18] Favorite Episodes, “Burning Down the House,” and others
• [51:24] The Show’s Enduring Legacy

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Conclusion

This episode of Northern Disclosure offers fans and newcomers a meaningful window into the creative heart of Northern Exposure, from the challenges and joys of literate television writing, to an honest look at on-set dynamics, to the episode’s philosophical themes. The interplay of perspectives—host, actor, writer—makes for a layered and often meta conversation, echoing the very qualities that have made Northern Exposure such an enduring show.

Further Listening:
For more insights, listen to earlier episodes or check out Robin Green’s memoir, The Only Girl: My Life and Times on the Masthead of Rolling Stone.

Transcript

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[Janine Turner]

Hello listeners, it's Janine Turner. We took a break, but we will be back with new episodes of Northern Disclosures soon. In the meantime, we're bringing back one of our favorite episodes from the archive. Enjoy and we'll see you soon.

[Rob O'Connell]

Welcome back to Northern Disclosure, the podcast that explores the the making, the behind the scenes, the themes, the ideas behind the TV series Northern Exposure. I'm here with my beautiful co host, Jeanine Turner. Jeanine, how are you doing today?

[Janine Turner]

I'm fine, thank you. I have my notes, I have all my notes of all the lines from the show that I loved, I'm sure.

[Rob O'Connell]

Well, you always pick the good ones. Oh, no, you do too. This episode is called War and Peace. It's the season two, episode six episode and it was written by one of our guests, Robin Green and, and Henry Brummell, who was a great writer who passed away, I believe in like 2013 and I think he even won an Emmy. But Robin is here with, with her husband Mitch Burgess, who also was a writer and they were both producers on the show and I'll talk about them in a minute. But this, this show was a really interesting, unique show with some definite unusual touches, even for Northern Exposure. And it was directed by one of our favorites, Bill d', Elia, who went on to have an incredible career directing everything for David Kelly. And we have Ilya Baskin as the guest star. And should I, what should I read the little plot about what it was.

[Janine Turner]

Janine And Dana Anderson was another one of the guest star and she was great.

[Rob O'Connell]

You were saying before we got on you, like really good. She was really, she was interesting. She was a perfect foil for Ed, right?

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, she had that accent, but it just seemed so real.

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah, it did seem real. She was, she plays a love interest to, to Ed Chigak. And it's an interesting story, but I'm going to read the. The audience seems to like these little plot descriptions. So this. The plot of. Of the episode War and Peace. Joel prescribes Valium to Holling, who fears his dreams, but the Canadian gets frightfully groggy and prefers to use another approach. The whole town celebrates the visit of Nikolai Ivanovich Apalanov, a pop singer known even in New York, who organizes Sicily's annual Russian festival. Patriotic bad chess loser Maurice dares him to a duel. Chris holds the annual reading of War and Peace with original side comments. And Ed has a hot night with a saucy farm girl and can considers marriage, but she prefers Chris. It's a. There's a lot going on in this show, aside from all the literary references which all of our, our English lit major writers were having fun with before.

[Janine Turner]

The days of Internet. We just always have to keep saying that, you know, before.

[Rob O'Connell]

That's true. And I think just another housekeeping. You know, if you're, if you're listening to this podcast, you can also watch it. If you want to see the beautiful Jeanine, you can watch on the Handsome Rob Moro. Thank you. You can watch on YouTube on the Northern Disclosure Channel. And. Or if you're watching, you can listen if you're in your car. And then either way, subscribe, because then you'll get all the information about coming events and live appearances that we may or may not be doing in the future and like that. So, Jeanine, tell me a little. What'd you think about this, the War and Peace?

[Janine Turner]

Well, you know, as I was watching the show, I watched it twice this morning. And the second time, all sort of idiosyncrasies and the depth of connections started to hone in, in my brain. And I really love this parallel universe type of duality that they were focusing on. I really love. I know you love science fiction too, Rob, and I really love it.

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah. Talk a little bit more about that. What do you mean?

[Janine Turner]

Well, well, this Tolstoy, there's a line, it's all about duels. Duels. The duel that happens later, the duel within the book when they're reading the Tolstoy because they're reading War. And Chris has this great line in this parallel universe we call reality, we've scripted in our own duel. And so everything was about this sort of parallel universe, the duality and the, the level of. The level of literature references. In this particular episode, I thought the Dr. Zhivago and lines like, shall I Go into some of my lines.

[Rob O'Connell]

Sure. You had that great. You kind of quoted Dr. Zhivago.

[Janine Turner]

Yes, yeah, I did quote Dr. Zhivago, but I'm not sure I wrote those lines down. That was a pretty good. That was a pretty good little monologue.

[Rob O'Connell]

It was great. It was beautiful.

[Janine Turner]

You know what it made me think about? Because it was talking about the skies and the wind swept this and that and the gray steel of the sky. I thought, wow, you know, I still love poetic books like that. Prose that's just almost like poetry. And that's the way they. They used to write. I. I thought, well, I'm going to save one of the things I know you want to talk about to the end, and we can go back and forth, but things that they would say, like he's a Greco Roman bronze medalist. The fact that. That Dostoevsky gambled everything away. The. The. Did. He did the wild. He goes, I want. Marie Holling says, I want to go do the wild thing. Like Tolstoy. The whole reference with John Corbett and Ed. About eroticizing the landscape. No, no, no. He has it with the young girl. Anderson. Anderson.

[Rob O'Connell]

Lightfeather.

[Janine Turner]

Dana Anderson.

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah, she plays Lightfeather.

[Janine Turner]

Yes, yes, Dana Anderson. And the part about eroticizing the landscape because she loves this whole motorcycle became a sexual type of thing. And he says Henry Miller. He talks about Henry Miller. And Baudelaire had a really great thing with the white cat fur.

[Rob O'Connell]

Right.

[Janine Turner]

I wrote it down. Vast steel gray skies. That was from Dr. Zhivago. I did write one down.

[Rob O'Connell]

And that's so. So perfectly descriptive of. I mean, when you watch the movie, those skies were vast and steely gray.

[Janine Turner]

They were. You want me to keep going? My other few more? Just. I have a few more.

[Rob O'Connell]

It's either you. It's up to you.

[Janine Turner]

Okay, well, the. The whole outraged honor of Russian arms. That was another line at the dog. And then there was this great reference, Rob. And I don't remember exactly who said it, but I think it probably was Chris. It was from the Machu Picchu to the Acropolis. I thought that that was really amazing. And of course, there's a funny line between you and I when we're flirting at the end when I say, yeah, you know, underneath that whiny, abrasive exterior of yours, I sometimes get a glimpse of something manly. Those were the. Those kind of Lucy comments, you know?

[Rob O'Connell]

I mean. I mean, I love what you're saying. I didn't quite follow the. The. The. The dual. Dual things. And. But. But You, You. Because we're not dealing with dual realities. You're just saying that we were. That the. That what was in the. The novel War and Peace was being represented in our show.

[Janine Turner]

Well, he talked about the parallel universe, and the parallel universe is a duality and how we are carrying out a dual. At the same time as they're talking about the duel in the book.

[Rob O'Connell]

So it's a double entendre on the word duel, is what you're saying.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, we're kind of having that parallel universe thing happening where there's suddenly there's a duel in the town between Maurice and the Russian, and that there's also a duality talking about in the book. But then that duality of what's happening there is also happening here is sort of like a parallel universe.

[Rob O'Connell]

And then, you know, I get what you're saying now. And then the play on the word duel as well is interesting.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. In the play on the world duality.

[Rob O'Connell]

I think our literary writers who will bring out now Robin Green and Mitch Burgess, are super smart and talented. And I always remember them being so open and insightful and calm and just a great presence when they're around. And whenever their name was on a script, I, you know, I would get excited because I knew it was going to be interesting. Robin originally worked for Stan Lee. I don't know if you know that. Janine, she was at Marvel Comics and then she went on to work. She was. She was the Only Girl. There's a She's a Novel autobiography out that I read, which is so charming and should be a movie. I don't know what's going on with that, but it's called the Only Girl. And it's, it's. It's subtitled My Life and Times on the Mast head of Rolling Stone. She was the only girl at Rolling Stone magazine. And the stories are just amazing.

[Janine Turner]

Wow. That should be a movie. I'll play the part, Robin.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'll do it.

[Robin Green]

Okay.

[Rob O'Connell]

But so. So she went on to come to write for us, and then she went on and her and Mitch became writers and producers on the Sopranos. And Mitch, you know, wrote for us and was a producer and involved in many shows include, and then went on to write for Sopranos and. And the two of them together created the show Blue Bloods. I don't know if you know that, but that's a lot of checks in the mailbox on that one.

[Robin Green]

You know it.

[Mitch Burgess]

And how do you think we got.

[Robin Green]

This house in Shelter Island?

[Rob O'Connell]

And I'll just say that they were. They were. They had 11. They were nominated for 11 Emmys for Sopranos, and they won three, I believe.

[Robin Green]

But no, I had another one for Northern Exposure.

[Rob O'Connell]

That's what I was going to ask.

[Robin Green]

Oh, yeah. It was the first one that we won as a team, you know.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, okay. Best show, right?

[Robin Green]

Okay, I have that. But I mean, actors were not allowed.

[Janine Turner]

To walk on the stage. But we'll talk about that another day.

[Mitch Burgess]

You guys were the first SAG people. Remember the first SAG Awards, weren't you guys?

[Janine Turner]

We were one of. Yeah, didn't we win that, Rob? We were nominated for best.

[Mitch Burgess]

They didn't have the SAG Awards. No one could understand why. Didn't have one for the talent.

[Rob O'Connell]

So, guys, what I want to ask you. Did you come to the show together as a team? Was that the way it worked?

[Robin Green]

No, no, I worked. How did I get on that show? Oh, I know. I met John Falzi at Iowa, and I met Mitch at Iowa. And Mitch used to play ball, you know, basketball, with John Fauci, who was one of the creators of the show.

[Rob O'Connell]

And that's the Iowa. The Iowa Writers Workshop. And Henry, which is a renown for the audience, that's a renowned writer. So many great writers have come out of there.

[Robin Green]

Everybody goes through there. Everybody came at one point, either lecturing or as a student. But Henry was my teacher. He was a seminar teacher. At 24 years old, Henry won the Houghton Mifflin Award for fiction. He was like a really fine literary writer, and that's who I knew. I met him at Iowa the year that I met John.

[Rob O'Connell]

And Henry's the co writer of this. And then you go on to write with your professor. That's amazing.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, well, you know, it sort of was validating that he got into television, too. Do you know what I mean? Because I didn't become a literary writer. I became a television writer.

[Rob O'Connell]

So John brought you on and Henry happened to be there?

[Robin Green]

Yeah, well, they had children at the same school or something, and John was at someone's house, and he saw Henry's name on a parent list.

[Rob O'Connell]

John was at Iowa, too? Yeah.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, well, he was in Iowa. That's how I knew him.

[Janine Turner]

Let me clarify. Let me clarify this. I know we're talking about the Iowa Writers Camp, but. But were John and Henry from Iowa?

[Robin Green]

No, no, no, no.

[Mitch Burgess]

Henry at the workshop, John's at Connecticut.

[Janine Turner]

Okay, so they were all just from. They were all just there for the workshop.

[Mitch Burgess]

The workshop attracted.

[Robin Green]

You know, it was. I had already had my Rolling Stone career, and I went there just to relax for a few years, you know what I mean? And retool. And my life started again. I met Mitch, I met Henry. I met all the people who I.

[Mitch Burgess]

Would spend my life with, other writers who supported.

[Janine Turner]

So you went there for two years? You went there for two years?

[Robin Green]

Well, I stay to wait for Rich to graduate from college. He was my. Yeah, I'm older than. But he was my student.

[Rob O'Connell]

There's a lot of student teacher relationships here.

[Robin Green]

Yes. And he was my best student.

[Mitch Burgess]

We were adults.

[Rob O'Connell]

So you came on the show, Robin. And then. And then. When did Mitch come on?

[Mitch Burgess]

Probably 92 I came on.

[Robin Green]

I had a show of my own that summer. When you did the pilot, when you did the six. The original six shows.

[Rob O'Connell]

The original eight.

[Janine Turner]

Eight.

[Robin Green]

Was it eight? Wow. Okay. Because I had cbs, their wisdom had given me my own show. And it was just, for various reasons, didn't work. But I was so lucky because I got to go on the show with Josh and John. John remembered me from Iowa. This was years later. It was like eight years later. What?

[Mitch Burgess]

Yeah, keep going.

[Robin Green]

And John remembered me from Iowa. And I was writing restaurant reviews at the time for the LA Times, and they were funny. And John said to Josh, she could write for the show. She's a literary writer. She knows. So I wrote a script, my first script, and quit my job as I had a job as an editor on California Magazine under Harold Hayes. You know, I had a job, but, you know, then I went in television, and that's really when my life began, because I loved television. I loved writing in that way with heart. You know what I mean? It wasn't journalism. It was really expressive.

[Rob O'Connell]

And Mitch. So Mitch came on when?

[Robin Green]

Well, yeah, the third year. The third season.

[Rob O'Connell]

Did you pitch him?

[Robin Green]

No, no. I mean, there's a real story behind it, and that's in the book. And it's not a really pretty story involving and Andy and Diane, but I was having trouble at work.

[Rob O'Connell]

Oh, that's right. I forgot. Give us a little bit of this.

[Robin Green]

So Andy and Diane's like, really squishy.

[Rob O'Connell]

You can't do a truncated version.

[Robin Green]

Well, what happened?

[Janine Turner]

We've had Andy and Diane on. So they were on a trip.

[Robin Green]

I know, I know.

[Mitch Burgess]

And they were.

[Robin Green]

They popped up at Sopranos at the end, too.

[Rob O'Connell]

Let's just talk about. We're talking about Andy. We had them as a guest a couple episodes ago. That's Andy Schneider and Diane Froloff, who were producers and writers on the show as well.

[Robin Green]

And I had worked with Andy on David Chase's show. My second year in television, almost grown before Northern Exposure. So I was having trouble at work coming up with ideas. There was more to the story, but the short version is that. And Josh said. He really put it to me very harshly. And I didn't really understand that Andy and Diane were behind it, but I got demoted. My title changed because of a demand they made.

[Rob O'Connell]

Wait, you went from what title to what title?

[Robin Green]

I don't know. I think I got to keep my producer title. But I want to say one thing, though. You know the book that you mentioned.

[Rob O'Connell]

Rob, which I love?

[Robin Green]

Well, Spain brought me there for a tour last year in April, I went on a tour through Spain, and because Northern Exposure doesn't translate into Spanish, they called your show there Doctor in Alaska and after. And I thought people would want to hear about the Sopranos, but they really wanted to hear in Spain about Northern Exposure.

[Janine Turner]

We have a huge following in Spain. I did some international press for Spain. Just huge.

[Robin Green]

They brought me DVD sets to sign. You know, who even has a DVD these days? It was very sweet.

[Mitch Burgess]

It was really good that the show's finally getting seen again.

[Robin Green]

I'm glad it's.

[Rob O'Connell]

Can you guys talk a little bit about how an idea. This is such a complex episode with so many layers. How does something like this come about? How did it. Do you remember it all?

[Robin Green]

Well, here's the problem is that I don't. And my name is second in the credits. So it's possible that Henry wrote it and then I polished it or something. I don't know. Maybe I had one of the storylines. I don't remember. I know some of the lines that are mine, because you tend to remember.

[Janine Turner]

Okay, so what are your lines? Tell us some of your lines.

[Robin Green]

Don't you have anything better to do than watch me live? Which is. You know, Holling said it when everyone was watching. I mean, it's something I say to Mitch on a regular basis, you know, so I know that's my line. But the others. I watched the show with such detached pleasure this morning because I could just enjoy it. And it was so rich. It was great to see everybody again, of course, but it was so rich, and there was so much story. And I honestly can't remember if Josh and John made this story. I know Henry had a huge.

[Mitch Burgess]

Were they plotting it out? Were Josh and John plotting out the episode?

[Robin Green]

They used to plot out the episodes, and they let. They used to take story credit, but then they stopped. And I think that they probably had a lot to do with that. I think they probably worked with Henry on it. They must have worked with me, but it was just 40 years ago.

[Janine Turner]

30. Well, a good 35.

[Robin Green]

You know, I remember every insult that's ever been given me, but I don't remember.

[Janine Turner]

That's human nature, isn't it? Well, you know, I think that one of the questions I loved the, the reference, reference references to literature, you know, whether it was Henry Miller or Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, whatever it might have been. I thought that it was so rich in that regard. And I just have to say it again. It's before anybody could just go to Google and just like Dostoevsky, I love Dostoevsky. He's my favorite author. Crime and Punishment is probably my favorite book. But the fact that I didn't know he died as a gambled everything in his life away. And of course that wasn't something you could find on the Internet back then. So it was. But I know Rob and I would love to talk about the breaking of the fourth wall.

[Evan Ross Katz]

This episode is brought to you by FX's the Beauty Official Podcast. Join host Evan Ross Katz on the Official podcast for FX's hottest new series the Beauty, taking you behind the scenes with its amazing stars as discuss the show's most jaw dropping moments. Featuring Evan Peters, Anthony Ramos, Jeremy Pope, Ashton Kutcher, Rebecca Hall, Bella Hadid, Meghan Trainor, Isabella Rossellini, Jessica Alexander and Ari Grayner. Search FX is the Beauty? Wherever you listen to podcasts, how do.

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[Janine Turner]

I remember being there in the snow. I remember the cool of air. That was real snow. The beautiful. It looked beautiful there. But I have a question and my question is when we broke. I think I probably had this question at the time too. It's coming back to. It's all coming back to me now.

[Rob O'Connell]

Maybe we should set it up a little, Janine, just so the audience knows what we're talking about. So, so let's just. So. So there's a duel. Because Nikolai and Maurice are feuding. Have always.

[Janine Turner]

It was an American, Russian thing. It was. It was like a democracy versus communism element to it as well.

[Rob O'Connell]

Absolutely. And also they have this traditional. They always are in competition and they. They play an annual chess game and Maurice accuses Nikolai of cheating and Nikolai takes. I think it's my glove, and slaps Maurice in the old traditional way that you. You ask someone to have a duel and that they're going to have a duel out in the middle of a field. And the whole town, of course, like everything, it becomes a spectator event.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. And everybody's excited about it, except Fleischmann is like. Do you know what happens when you're like, you're shot and then you bleed and then. But then all of a sudden when they're marching and they're going to kill each other, we break what we call the fourth wall, which is. Means we. We jump. We jump out of character. And. But. But then we didn't jump out of character. And so they said, stop rolling. Or it was kind of. That kind of thing. It was. Then, let's not. Let's talk about this. The next scene is really good. So we were talking to each other at this actors. But what I found to be really interesting we could. Which could fit into this whole duality, you know, parallel universe type of thing, is that when we broke the fourth wall, we still referred to each other as Fleischman and o'. Connell. So we broke the fourth wall as actors, but we didn't refer to each other with our own names. We still refer to each other in our character names. And I'm curious what you. If y' all remember that. I remember that confusing me at the time, if there was a reason for that.

[Robin Green]

Well, when I watched it this morning, I was amazed how well it worked. And it was so subtly done in a certain way because Rob talks about our sophisticated television audience, you know, and we can't. There's no good solution. And it became really a description of a writer's room and the various. Somebody refers to the fifth revision. And it was made obvious that there had been several ways that writers who had painted ourselves into a corner, quite frankly, couldn't figure out a way out.

[Rob O'Connell]

So all the actors, all the actors in the cast start arguing about the plot of the episode as if they were an audience, and they reference the fact that the audience is sophisticated. And again, I would say this is probably yet another literary illusion in a kind of post modern device where we step out and start talking. But I do remember Janine, I remember. I remember us kind of going, wait a Minute. If I'm not my character, if I'm talking about the show as if I'm an. As if I'm outside of it objectively, but yet I'm talking to. I'm saying I'm referencing people's character names, which is it. It was so hard to get our heads around. And. And I remember Josh just saying, well, you know, something like, well, that's just the way it is. You know, just. Just do it. And nobody made it. And I think. And the way we. You know, it's so great the way we get out of it. They never really. They never really deal with it as a device. It's just kind. I think maybe they were. You guys might have been thrown in the writing room of how to end it. So all of a sudden, Elaine says, as Marilyn says, let's go on to the next scene. It's better. It's really good.

[Janine Turner]

Yes. And then she is actually playing the piano when Ilia is singing his song. I'm like, oh, look, that's Elaine playing the piano.

[Robin Green]

I will say about the duel and breaking the fourth wall, it shouldn't have worked, but it really works. I bought it. In other words, it seemed organic. It seemed interesting.

[Janine Turner]

Maybe it's interesting that we didn't say our names, because that's done a lot today, right? People just look to the camera and they talk to the camera. It was never really that familiar. It was like, we're breaking the fourth wall, we realize. But then again, we're still kind of us, but we're not us. And I guess you can look at that as an alternative universe kind of interesting sort of thing. But at the time, it was really confusing to us.

[Robin Green]

But it worked. But it. It did work.

[Janine Turner]

It helped us slide back into it at the. In the next scene. I think the fact.

[Robin Green]

Because it had the same playful tone of the show, because if I'd said.

[Janine Turner]

I was Janine, then Janine had to get back into character.

[Robin Green]

No, that was harsh. That's a whole different.

[Mitch Burgess]

That would have been really confusing.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Janine Turner]

When you break the fourth wall, though, you are. You are an actress referring to the scenes. But. But I think it's kind of interesting, is what I'm saying, that we didn't become Jeanine and Rob because then we could slide right back into it.

[Rob O'Connell]

As far as I remember, that was the only time we ever did that.

[Janine Turner]

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

[Robin Green]

Yeah. There was a hue and cry. You know, I don't know if it was from the viewer or it was from you guys or what? But it was. I don't think you'd want to do it again. I think we got away with it in that instant. And I did not notice that you kept in your characters names. That probably really helped. Somebody was thinking, maybe Josh. I don't remember. I don't rem. But I will say. Well, I will say that Henry is probably responsible for all of the knowledge about Dostoevsky and Tolstoy and all of that, all the literary stuff. And I think that the breaking of the fourth wall is a kind of literary conceit. And it worked like that in some literary way.

[Mitch Burgess]

I thought it was totally with the show. You said tonally with the show.

[Robin Green]

It was in the tone of the show.

[Rob O'Connell]

It was in the tone of the show. But I do remember, as we talk about it, I remember we were. I think we might have even lobbied to say, let's not do. I can only imagine that the network was like, please don't do it again.

[Janine Turner]

It was really, really fascinating. I thought the entire show. Talk about the duality of it. I think duality was. Was one of the main major themes. Everything had a. Had a. I guess, wonderful duality was with. With the young character. I can't. What is Anderson?

[Robin Green]

Light feather.

[Janine Turner]

Light feather. She was sexual. She was sexual, you know, but the duality in that is she loved the words. And that was so rich because that fit with. Rob and I talk a lot about the three storylines, you know, fitting in together. The fact that she loved the words fit into the fact that we were reading Chekhov or. No, Tolstoy. We were reading Tolstoy and that. Everything, you know, so it was everything about the character and the duality. Talk about the duality. Because I thought that was really interesting.

[Robin Green]

I can't. I don't. I'm not a good thinker in that way. But what I really think about that storyline is that she was a really good actress. This flat affect, that she had this expressionless tone. But I don't think theoretically in terms of duality, and I can't. I don't think even in the writing of it, in the room we ever thought of it like that. It's wonderful that you can take that from it. But I don't think there's an intention there.

[Janine Turner]

But, you know, that's what they do with poetry. What do you think they were saying in that particular stanza?

[Robin Green]

I wish Henry were here.

[Mitch Burgess]

That's very common with scripts. It's very common in scripts that people take different things of it, you know, when we were in the room, a million, million rooms. And you think. No, I don't think anybody's thinking that.

[Rob O'Connell]

Right. The whole Cyrano thing is interesting. Like everything's literary, you know, that was.

[Janine Turner]

A duality, too, because it wasn't really him.

[Robin Green]

I really wish that Henry hadn't was here. I wish he hadn't died. A and B, he could really explain everything because he really does have this huge literary sense or so.

[Rob O'Connell]

In order to kind of woo Lightfeather, Ed goes to Chris because he doesn't feel like he has the words at his disposal. So he has Chris write this letter which is, you know, riffing on the Cyrano device, and Chris writes all these allusions to motorcycles and stuff, and it ends up backfiring. But. But it's really charming, all of that. I think my favorite literary reference was Nikolaj calls Shelley a Nabokovian jewel.

[Robin Green]

Yeah. You know what I love? I loved when Chris said to Lightfeather. That was it. Baudelaire did a lot of really interesting. With cat fur. With wet fur.

[Janine Turner]

Yes, I mentioned that earlier. Yes. Yeah, I had that earlier. He talks about Henry Miller and that bug lair. Todd did an interesting thing with cats.

[Robin Green]

Eroticizing.

[Janine Turner]

Eroticizing, yes.

[Robin Green]

The landscape. And so I guess that's a duality right there. But because, you know, the landscape isn't erotic. Well, I guess it is eroticized. But who was it that wrote about Katz fur? Was it Baudelaire or was it in.

[Janine Turner]

The script, it said Baudelaire.

[Robin Green]

No, Fleur de. Oh, it did, yes. Baudelaire, Fleur de mal or something.

[Rob O'Connell]

Hey, Henry. Henry, can you pick out the themes that were in play in the episode?

[Janine Turner]

You mean Mitch?

[Rob O'Connell]

I mean Mitch. Henry, of course I'm calling you, Henry.

[Janine Turner]

Henry, come talk to us from the parallel universe. But.

[Robin Green]

No but just like.

[Mitch Burgess]

But Henry was a real intellectual. I mean, he was the real.

[Robin Green]

But we don't. We never. I don't think we ever did things thematically. I don't really.

[Rob O'Connell]

I can't believe that. I don't know how.

[Janine Turner]

That I can't imagine.

[Robin Green]

I think that one thing might lead to another. Do you know what I mean? Might inform the other. But I don't remember us ever trying to tie things together thematically.

[Rob O'Connell]

And when you watched the episode, did they not jump out at you?

[Robin Green]

I know what you're talking about? I do know what you're talking about, but I don't think it was done with intention.

[Rob O'Connell]

Right. That's so fascinating because I think the.

[Robin Green]

Depth of the analysis that Janine is bringing to it about duality and all that stuff. You know, we were just putting words.

[Mitch Burgess]

In actors, but who beat the story out.

[Robin Green]

The story.

[Mitch Burgess]

The people who beat the story out are the ones who put the scenes in it. So I don't know.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, well, I know in episodes that were my idea, which I don't think this was. I think this must have been Henry, who unfortunately can't speak to this, and I must have come and worked on it afterwards, which I had to do sometimes, you know, to punch up a script or something like that. But I think I'll ask Josh. We see Josh. He lives here on the north floor.

[Janine Turner]

That's another thing that I simply love. And I talk about it every episode because I think we yearn for it. And that's why people love Northern Exposure so much, is just the community that we're all always there together, whether they're playing chess, you know, where everybody's there in the bar. You know, Rob's Fleischman's there looking bored. You know, Cynthia and I are smoking. You know, Maggie Oconnel, Donald and. And Shelly, they're smoke. We're smoking cigarettes. And it just has a. The whole town is there to experience it. And I want to give a. A call out to Peg Phillips, because, God bless her, she passed right after the show wrapped. And this was kind of a real. She had the most to do, I think, in this episode so far, really, yet. And she just did a wonderful job. And. And I want to give a shout out to Catherine, who did the costumes, the hat that. The Russian theme, and the little hats that Peg Phillips had on with the scarf around her neck. And Peg Phillips, really, I thought she played Ruthanne in the corner store, and the way she lit up the screen I thought was really beautiful in this episode. So there you go. Peg Phillips, we miss you.

[Rob O'Connell]

I agree. You know, I always say that Chris. You guys gave Chris such interesting stuff, and the way he wields his spirituality in. With his literary sensibilities is always fascinating. How he takes responsibility, this integrity.

[Mitch Burgess]

He.

[Robin Green]

He.

[Rob O'Connell]

He represents such integrity, you know, he. He takes responsibility for his karma, you know, and. And yet he. And he's so. But he's so open to what, you know, the way he deals with Ed wanting to get married. He's like, you know, yeah, sure, get married. Get one under your belt. You know, it's just so like, get.

[Janine Turner]

One under your belt. That's a great line. Get one under your belt.

[Robin Green]

I love the way he blew off lights on there, too. So Sweet.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. He can't be with a girl who has freckles. It's like, I can't be with a girl. Yeah, I know. I was like, put some freckles on her. But. But, you know, there was a. There was a moment that I thought was so great because she sat down and he put his hand on her top of her head. Kind of like a paternal little thing, like, I'm going to. You know, I'm going to connect you with literature. And he starts teaching. I thought. Did you catch that, Rob? It was an actor thing, but I thought that was a wonderful little moment.

[Rob O'Connell]

So sweet. And then. And then at the end, he looks like Yoko Uno with the. With the. With the beret and the glasses, like, oh, ye.

[Robin Green]

I love the chess scene. I love the fact that the show could slow down to that extent. And, you know, and Rob was the only one. He's, like, in that ad for the Philadelphia Inquirer. He's the only one who's bored because it was, you know. But it was done with such humor. That scene. It was just brilliant that you all knew about chess and everything.

[Janine Turner]

I loved the. I thought about the art direction and Woody, once again, we talk about him almost every episode as well. But the big blanket with the Velcro chest, pieces that were moved.

[Rob O'Connell]

I mean, I thought, that's so clever.

[Janine Turner]

But it's just that sense of community. Don't you. Don't you yearn for it?

[Robin Green]

I do.

[Janine Turner]

I live up here in the country, and I'm. I'm trying to get all. All the neighborhood together. I'm starting to have, you know, community parties, but not like, block parties, because we're all sort of far away, but just to get together and. And get to know each other. And I had one at Christmas, and now we're gonna go ride horses together and do things together. But that's sort of a lost community art.

[Mitch Burgess]

That's why the brick so works so well for the show, because he could bring everybody together.

[Rob O'Connell]

Right, right. And we should also, while we're throwing out, we should again just say how great Bill d' Elia was as a director. You know, I mean, he really. He really. All of the kind of nuances and touches. And, you know, you talk. Janine, you talked about Corbett's gesture, Chris's gesture to Lightfeather. You know, the paternal thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill said you. You know, as an aside to John to do it. You know, he just had a great. Yeah, he was. Really. Had a great, great sensibility he was a great eye.

[Janine Turner]

He was also very kind, wonderful with which to work.

[Robin Green]

You gotta remember, we were down in Los Angeles in the writing room, and we weren't there up in Seattle nearly enough, you know, but you were all together up there in this isolation kind of. You know.

[Rob O'Connell]

I know I'm of two minds about that.

[Janine Turner]

What's your other mind?

[Rob O'Connell]

No, one. One. One on one mind. I like that. You know, as the show, in the beginning, it was hard, but once we got kind of on. On a roll, I like that we could kind of make decisions on the fly without having to get LA involved, you know, and so it was. It was.

[Robin Green]

You're allowed to do that, really?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Rob O'Connell]

You know, I mean, not in any major way.

[Janine Turner]

Like, what just surpasses us.

[Rob O'Connell]

Like, whereas when we first started shooting, if it was raining and the line was, hey, it's such a beautiful sunny day, you know, you'd have to have three calls and shut down production. But eventually. And so I think that served it. But I do remember whenever you did come up, you guys, it was always, you were just such a warm and smart presence and your talent preceded you. So it was just. We felt lucky when we did get to have you up there.

[Janine Turner]

And how many episodes did y' all write for the show?

[Shopify Advertiser]

18. 18.

[Rob O'Connell]

Wow.

[Mitch Burgess]

Our hands are in more.

[Robin Green]

But we had hands. You know, we had a hand in others. Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip hop.

[Janine Turner]

We'll remind you of your childhood without.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Making you feel incredibly old.

[Janine Turner]

Kraft Mac and Cheese.

[Robin Green]

Best thing ever.

[Janine Turner]

And talk. Talk about having your hand in others.

[Mitch Burgess]

Rewrite. We did most rewriting.

[Robin Green]

Rewriting, yeah.

[Mitch Burgess]

Probably punching up something didn't quite get to the standard that they wanted or.

[Robin Green]

Just for continuity sake. Yeah.

[Rob O'Connell]

Which means also a lot of people don't realize that you may see in television and in the movies, I guess you may see someone get credit and they may not have written. There's a lot of writers that have made great careers off of scripts that they didn't write. Because what happens is if you're a producer on a show like. Like Robin and Mitch, you are, you know, and the script comes in from a writer who's not a staff writer. The, The. The showrunners, Josh and John would, would, you know, maybe not be happy with it. And they'd hand it off to Robin for a weekend and say, hey, Robin, you know, make this thing work, you know, and then. But Robin wouldn't get credit. You know, she'd get her regular credit.

[Mitch Burgess]

But she wouldn't ne. Got you Got paid.

[Rob O'Connell]

That's. You got real credit?

[Robin Green]

We got enough credit.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, interesting.

[Robin Green]

And Josh was really good about always honoring the original writer with a credit.

[Rob O'Connell]

Right.

[Robin Green]

It was really.

[Janine Turner]

Which is nice because, you know, I've written a. I've written what I call a Broadway musical because it's going to make it one day, no matter how long it takes me. But it's a musical. And, you know, playwrights have a lot of power, you know, in the theatrical world. But in this film world, you know, if an actor. If a writer sells his scri. To say, you know, Tom Cruise from Mission Impossible, it may change a thousand times. And the writers just excluded. So it was nice that. That. That there was this family affair and that y' all were always included and a part of the process. And you were exactly. You were producers, too.

[Robin Green]

Well, television, the writer has more power.

[Janine Turner]

Right, right. And the executive producers are the bosses. Yeah.

[Mitch Burgess]

There's not that many writers, and there wasn't that many writers of North Exposure or any of the shows were more on the surprise. Me and Robin, Andy and Diane, Jeff Melvoyne, and we bring.

[Janine Turner]

Jeff Melvoin was wonderful as well.

[Rob O'Connell]

Henry was a staff. Yeah.

[Robin Green]

No, he was staff. Definitely a producer of some kind. But he was just starting off his career, you know, in television.

[Rob O'Connell]

And he was your teacher. I find that. I love that.

[Robin Green]

I know we read Proust for one entire.

[Janine Turner]

But see, that's why the shows were so great. Y' all were literary writers. You weren't out of USC film school to be a television writer.

[Mitch Burgess]

We were older, too, and we were old. We weren't 26 years old, you know.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, but you were literary writers, and I think that that really comes across. You know, Rob and I worked with a lot of directors in 110 episodes or whatever. We. We both did. But you could tell that there's some directors straight out of USC film school. Right. Who knew technically what to do, but didn't know how to talk to actors at all, you know, so it's just great when you get. You get a duality there and the fact that y all had a literary sense that you could bring to the scripts, because there was nothing ever until the end, I believe, ordinary about the scripts. The scripts were always profound. The dialogue was rich. It was interesting. There weren't things like huh or stuff or, you know, there were no. There were no colloquialisms there. There were not any slang things. It was beautifully written. As I'm a. I'm a writer, so I grammatically is kind of my thing. Grammatically, it was written beautifully. It was. It was literally.

[Mitch Burgess]

You know. But when it really got rolling, we tried to outdo ourselves, like me and Robin, we tried to outdo Andy and Diana Melvin. Habit. We read them, like, with competition, a good natured competition. We were really firing up by three years. The third year I was firing up so long.

[Robin Green]

We delighted in the writing of it and we delighted in the show. It was really fun, really fun to write.

[Rob O'Connell]

Did you guys have anything like, how did it work in post? Did you work in terms of overseeing an edit or. It was just. If you wrote the show, did you oversee the editor?

[Mitch Burgess]

Josh?

[Robin Green]

I think Josh and John did that stuff.

[Mitch Burgess]

Right.

[Janine Turner]

So you didn't really Bruce Lee?

[Robin Green]

No, I don't think we did. I remember being in the directors. Yeah, and the directors. And you know, when you add dialogue at the end, I want to know a couple of those.

[Rob O'Connell]

Adr. Yeah. So, wait, so you didn't weigh in on cuts?

[Robin Green]

No, I don't think so.

[Rob O'Connell]

That's interesting.

[Robin Green]

Josh was very much the boss, and John, you know.

[Janine Turner]

Well, I was even looking at the opening scene of all the random edits in John Collins and Holling's Dream. I mean, those were some cool things to pull. And once again, they were not easily found. I don't even know in that day how you would go find all those clips. How do you find them now? We're so used to Google. How do you go find. How would they find all those random clips to pull together for those crazy dreams that Hollywood.

[Robin Green]

I have to believe that that would be Josh and John, because I don't remember any discussion.

[Janine Turner]

I don't know where you. Where would you even go, Rob?

[Rob O'Connell]

I mean, they have libraries and they were categorized. And you would just say, you know, you'd go.

[Janine Turner]

You'd have to go to a library or something. I mean, they weren't on a computer.

[Rob O'Connell]

Well, no, but you make a phone call and someone would.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, but think of all the different cuts. There were like 30 different cuts in that opening. There were 30 different cuts.

[Mitch Burgess]

You always said it was before the Internet. We practically lived in the Beverly Hills library researching these scripts. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, it took a lot.

[Rob O'Connell]

And those clips may have all come from one library. So you could kind of go and. And look at what's there.

[Janine Turner]

You might go to an MGM lot.

[Rob O'Connell]

Like Universal, like a Dr. Chivago, you know, that was whoever. Whatever studio. MGM, maybe.

[Janine Turner]

But I mean, it was like. It was like freeways falling down and things falling from the sky and.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, Stock, stock, stock.

[Rob O'Connell]

Foot.

[Robin Green]

What did Josh talk about with you?

[Rob O'Connell]

He talked about so much. He gave us so many insights, you know, and, you know, one of the big distinctions that we came away with, Deneen and I kept think. I don't know where we got it, but I. But we think it might have. I haven't figured this out yet. I want to get David Chase on here, but I think David Chase said it derogatorily that he called the show a benevolent universe. And. And Janine and I both like that. We understand why it may not be completely realistic, but Josh told us that it was not a. It wasn't. He didn't think of it as a benevolent universe. He thought of it as. What was it, Janine?

[Janine Turner]

Non judgmental universe.

[Rob O'Connell]

Non judgmental universe. Which. Which is more. When I watch the show, that's. That's from an objective point of view. That's probably more. That's going after.

[Robin Green]

That's.

[Janine Turner]

I think it depends on where non judgment comes from. If you think it comes from a benevolence, you know, to love.

[Rob O'Connell]

That's a good point.

[Janine Turner]

Then it's benevolent. I think it depends on your ideology.

[Robin Green]

Well, Josh and John had seen this movie with Burt Lancaster with it and the actor, you know, it took place in Scotland or something.

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah, it was Local Hero.

[Robin Green]

Torture me if I needed to watch that.

[Rob O'Connell]

Local Hero by Bill Forsyth, starring my friend Peter Riegert.

[Robin Green]

Oh, Peter Rieger. That's the name I couldn't remember, but I think they took. They said that that was the tonal inspiration because that was a non judgmental universe. And of course, David Chase was very much. I mean, Sopranos was the very judgmental universe.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, right.

[Rob O'Connell]

Well, that's why I was gonna ask you what. So you were there when David came in, right?

[Janine Turner]

Yes.

[Mitch Burgess]

Yeah.

[Rob O'Connell]

And what was the difference when he. David Chase, who in the audience, y' all know, went on to write, as far as I'm concerned, one of the top five best shows in the history of television. The Sopranos, which Mitch and Robin went on to work on and. And produce, and also Andy and Diane and also Martin, Bruce Lee. So he took some. He took people from Northern Exposure. But what was. How would you say the show changed when he came on?

[Robin Green]

Well, you left.

[Rob O'Connell]

No, no, no, not for two years. He was there for. I left. I left. I left for two years. Right, yeah, he was there for two seasons.

[Robin Green]

One season. Well, I thought that he brought in, you know, that comedian and everything.

[Rob O'Connell]

He was there for that, but I was. But he was. I worked with him a lot. I did A lot of episodes. Oh, yeah. I don't know.

[Robin Green]

I feel like after John and Josh. Josh and John left.

[Rob O'Connell]

That was after 66 episodes. Josh and John left.

[Robin Green]

Wow. Well, that's a long. That's a lot of episodes. But that's true. In television and network, you do a lot of episodes. But I think we did some very good work with David. But I would say that David was very resistant to the show, but he didn't let that get in the way of his delivering the show, if you know what I mean.

[Janine Turner]

I absolutely agree, but the tone of it changed.

[Mitch Burgess]

But, you know, he. I mean, David came from a. He's a great TV writer, and he really delivered the good. He knew how to do story work. A brilliant guy. But he did change the topic. Exposure.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. And then we got a new cinematographer, too, and suddenly everything was dark.

[Robin Green]

That's interesting.

[Janine Turner]

I don't even rem his name, but suddenly everyone.

[Rob O'Connell]

We had three cinematographers. Jimmy and I'm in a washroom. Jimmy Haymon established the look of the show, and then Frank Prinzy came on for a couple seasons, and then Gordon Lonsdale came on and.

[Janine Turner]

Thank you. Yeah. And he was. Not that. He was a bad cinematographer. It just got dark. The show got dark. But anyway, I don't think this show needs to become dark.

[Rob O'Connell]

They were all different. They all brought a different aesthetic, and I think each one kind of defined it in their own way. And. And, you know, I.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Over.

[Rob O'Connell]

When I watched the whole series, over six years, I found sex always interesting stuff all throughout. Even the last 10, which is very controversial, those last 10 episodes. But. But I thought they were. There was interesting stuff always. Mitch, what. What do you. Do you have any specific memories of shows that you. That you love, that you were involved in, that you were wrote?

[Mitch Burgess]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, I wrote without so much credit. Without. You know, the one where Maggie burns down her house. I don't know if I have.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, my God. That's one of my favorites. It's not what you fling. It's the fling itself. So did y' all write that line? You wrote that line.

[Robin Green]

We wrote that show. We really did write that.

[Janine Turner]

There were T shirts. It's not what you fling, but it's the fling itself.

[Robin Green]

Yeah, but you said to your mother, you ruined my life with your divorce, and then you ruined my life by burning. You know, it's just wonderful. You were sitting on a bench with her. I remember everything about that show.

[Janine Turner]

And her espadurles, her espidural shoes. Remember her espadurl yeah, but are you.

[Rob O'Connell]

Guys not credited with that?

[Mitch Burgess]

Oh, no, I think.

[Robin Green]

No, that we were. But let me tell you, I didn't cover too much. Here's what happened. I was having trouble coming up with story ideas. Although I think I did come up with that one, Burning down the House. But Mitch, I said to Mitch, and we started working together at this point, think of some ideas. And he did. He thought of the idea where Maurice had a Korean son. Remember that show, the Korean Sun Comes? It's a perfect Maurice story. And Burning down the House. And there was one other one. And I took those three ideas to Josh as my own.

[Mitch Burgess]

Anyway, we had some shows, but we.

[Robin Green]

Didn'T get to write the Christmas one because he had promised it to Andy and Diane. And they wanted Christ to come to town, but he liked this one better.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, Christ coming to town. That would have been cool.

[Mitch Burgess]

When I first started, we did this. Remember the Three Amigos? That beautiful one with the snow.

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Mitch Burgess]

Where they're coming, dragging the body from, you know.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, that was their big show on the horses and everything, wasn't it? Okay, sure.

[Mitch Burgess]

The problem was that it didn't really work when they put it together. So the film was. Got together, but the story, the dialogue didn't work. So we had to go to an ADR stage. We probably wrote adr. All the dialogue is, when you see it again, it'll be on back, the backs of people. They won't be incorrectly. And I said to Robert, why don't we just write the dialogue correctly the first time? ADR stadium.

[Robin Green]

Well, it had a directing problem. Storytelling just wasn't paced. And so the show had to be repast and recut and then ADR and then a musical score.

[Rob O'Connell]

It's coming back to me now. I remember.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, they all had eight hours of looping.

[Mitch Burgess]

We had, like, days of trying to figure out the dialogue on people's back. And what else was good? I mean, there was a lot of, you know, Shelly has her baby. That was.

[Robin Green]

Oh, Shelly having her baby. That was a good.

[Mitch Burgess]

I mean, you guys didn't like Bus Stop. Remember the Bus Stop episode?

[Robin Green]

Ruth Ann didn't like Bus Stop.

[Janine Turner]

I don't remember Bus Stop.

[Mitch Burgess]

Yeah, they were gonna put up.

[Robin Green]

The actors turned on each other, you know, but they weren't actors. They were townspeople. Well, you know, but they wanted more lines.

[Mitch Burgess]

We'll talk about this one more. It's fun stuff too, huh?

[Rob O'Connell]

We're gonna. We're gonna wind it down here. But we love having you guys and we hope we can bring you back again. We.

[Mitch Burgess]

We'll.

[Rob O'Connell]

You know, I'm sorry that I didn't.

[Mitch Burgess]

20 times.

[Robin Green]

I hope we were good guests, and.

[Janine Turner]

I hope you were great guest. Great guest. And look, you know, there. The great thing about podcast is you can say it how it is. And. And obviously, I. I want to just go on record. I think David Chase is brilliant. You know, it's just. It was different for our show, and I was very possess. Protective of it. You know what I mean? But I think it's. It's wonderful that. To have y' all here and to see your faces again.

[Robin Green]

I'm gonna be 80 this month, you know.

[Janine Turner]

80. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Wow.

[Rob O'Connell]

You look great.

[Robin Green]

Horrible. It's like a nightmare.

[Janine Turner]

You look great. You look awesome. And.

[Mitch Burgess]

I'm glad you guys brought this thing together again, because it's a. I'm glad you're talking, but I'm glad people are getting to see the younger people. Yeah, it's fun.

[Rob O'Connell]

It's fun.

[Robin Green]

It really lasted. It lasted well.

[Rob O'Connell]

Wow.

[Janine Turner]

It did. It holds up. Rob and I talk about that a lot. That the show really.

[Rob O'Connell]

Even aesthetically, it holds up, which we find fascinating.

[Robin Green]

Yes, I think that's true.

[Janine Turner]

Common themes that I think people want even more today than they ever wanted, which is the benevolent universe.

[Rob O'Connell]

For those of you out there. Remember, read Robin's book. It's really. It's really charming. And you'll get a sense of her. It's called the Only Girl Girl My Life and Times. Yeah, it's really fun.

[Robin Green]

And it's got all the dish in it, you know?

[Rob O'Connell]

Yeah, there's. There's some. There's some. No extra in there, too. Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

There may be something about me in there. I don't know.

[Mitch Burgess]

We had a blast writing only good things. We had a lot of fun writing the shows. It was.

[Rob O'Connell]

It was great to see you guys.

[Robin Green]

And great to see you, too.

[Rob O'Connell]

I'm so glad you're continuing to keep writing and creating, and I look forward to whatever you guys breathing also.

[Robin Green]

Breathing is.

[Rob O'Connell]

And breathing, I think.

[Janine Turner]

Breathing. My dad used to always say. But I would say, dad, how you doing today? And he'd look at me and he'd say, I'm still here.

[Mitch Burgess]

See you guys again.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah.

[Mitch Burgess]

If you need to ask questions of anything we wrote. Shoot.

[Janine Turner]

Rob.

[Robin Green]

No, you can give me notes. Us notes about, you know, our performance.

[Janine Turner]

No, come back because we have 110 of these. These. So it'll be great to have you come back.

[Robin Green]

And y' all were awesome talking about it.

[Janine Turner]

And I echo what Rob said when whenever we saw your name on a script, we were very excited. And it was always a joy to see you on the set when y' all visited. And, and it was just great fun to see you eight years ago or so. And that was a lot of fun.

[Robin Green]

There's a lot of good feeling here, too.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah.

[Mitch Burgess]

Bye. Bye.

[Robin Green]

Thank you for having us.

[Mitch Burgess]

Okay, thanks.

[Janine Turner]

Bye.

[Mitch Burgess]

Bye.

[Janine Turner]

So we'll see you next week. You can also, if you haven't heard the other episode, you can go back and listen to the previous episodes as well.

[Rob O'Connell]

And hit that subscribe button.

[Janine Turner]

Hit the subscribe button and you can watch it on Amazon Prime, Prime Video, whatever it's called. And Rob, I'll see you next week. And we're signing off from o' Connell and Fleischman.

[Rob O'Connell]

Actually, I think it's. I think it's a Fleischman, o'.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Connell.

[Janine Turner]

In your dreams, Fleischmann. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen.

[Robin Green]

Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.