S2E3: "All is Vanity" with Diane Frolov and Andrew Schnieder

Summary

Northern Disclosure Podcast Summary
Episode: Season 2, Episode 3: "All is Vanity"
Guests: Diane Froloff and Andrew Snyder
Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Presentation

In this episode of Northern Disclosure, hosts Rob Morrow and Janine Turner delve deep into Season 2, Episode 3, titled "All is Vanity." They are joined by special guests Diane Froloff and Andrew Snyder—both Emmy Award-winning executive producers and writers for the iconic 90s series Northern Exposure. The episode promises an engaging exploration of the episode's themes, character developments, and behind-the-scenes anecdotes that have solidified the show's timeless charm.

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Episode Overview: "All is Vanity"

Rob begins by providing a succinct synopsis of "All is Vanity," highlighting the intertwining storylines that make the episode a standout. The episode centers around Maggie O'Connell's attempt to gain her father's approval by presenting Joel Fleishman as her boyfriend. Simultaneously, Holling Vincoeur grapples with a personal decision about circumcision, leading to unforeseen consequences. Additionally, the town confronts the mystery of a John Doe corpse, showcasing the community's collective spirit.

Notable Quotes:

• Rob Morrow [02:31]: "This episode, 'All is Vanity,' is a tapestry of personal and communal struggles, all tied together by the overarching theme of vanity and identity."

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Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Diane and Andrew share their favorite moments from the episode, emphasizing the brilliance of the writing and the seamless integration of multiple storylines. Andrew praises the episode's ability to balance three equally compelling narratives, stating, "each storyline was simply mesmerizing" ([02:42]).

They also discuss the controversy surrounding the depiction of Holling's circumcision, noting that certain syndicators were hesitant to air the episode in 1991 due to its sensitive subject matter. Rob adds, "Shelly says how many guys would get their Johnny Pe just to show his babe how much he cared" ([04:13]).

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Snyder [02:42]: "The way the three storylines worked together was a testament to the show's depth and complexity."
• Rob Morrow [04:29]: "Holling decides to get a circumcision to show his love, and that's such a bold move for the character."

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Writing and Production Process

The discussion transitions to the collaborative writing process between Diane and Andrew. They reveal that their partnership began eight years into their marriage, initially writing separately before merging their talents on various projects. Their first joint effort on Northern Exposure involved crafting episodes that would resonate with the show's unique blend of humor, pathos, and philosophical undertones.

Rob commends their ability to create balanced scripts, particularly noting the "male, female balance" in their writing. "Because Diane was there to at least say no. A woman would never say that," he remarks ([12:00]).

Notable Quotes:

• Diane Froloff [10:07]: "We started writing together on 'Alienation' and soon became integral to 'Northern Exposure.'"
• Rob Morrow [12:00]: "Your scripts always maintained a perfect balance between male and female perspectives."

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Character and Story Development

Janine Turner praises Diane's portrayal of Maggie O'Connell, highlighting the nuanced depiction of a woman torn between her desire for independence and her need for her father's approval. "Your push-pull was so palpable," she observes ([16:34]).

The guests delve into the symbolic elements of the episode, such as the totem pole and the town's communal handling of the John Doe corpse. They discuss how these elements reflect the show's themes of community, respect for life, and the blending of individual and collective identities.

Notable Quotes:

• Janine Turner [16:34]: "She doesn't want to be part of her dad's world, yet she's desperate for his approval. Your performance captured that beautifully."
• Diane Froloff [16:56]: "Holling's decision was an act of compassion, showing his complex relationship with vanity and love."

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Impact and Legacy of "All is Vanity"

Rob and the guests reflect on the episode's lasting impact, both on the show's legacy and its audience. They share anecdotes about how the episode's themes resonate with viewers, citing personal stories of how Northern Exposure influenced lives by imparting lessons on hope, love, and forgiveness.

Andrew mentions a touching story where a listener named Justin Vernon formed the band Bon Iver after his mother's passing, inspired by an episode written by Diane and Andrew ([56:53]).

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Snyder [56:53]: "A listener told me 'All is Vanity' inspired Justin Vernon to create Bon Iver after his mother's death."
• Rob Morrow [58:24]: "People have told us how the show changed their lives—founding businesses, relationships, and personal philosophies."

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Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

As the episode draws to a close, Diane and Andrew reflect on their collaborative experience and express gratitude for being part of such a beloved series. They emphasize the importance of streaming the show for new generations, ensuring its timeless messages continue to inspire.

Rob concludes by thanking Diane and Andrew for their invaluable contributions, stating, "You've been a big part of the show's legacy and made it happen" ([62:35]).

Notable Quotes:

• Rob Morrow [62:35]: "You've been a big part of the show's legacy and made it happen."
• Andrew Snyder [63:09]: "Northern Exposure is a classic show that's timeless, and streaming ensures it reaches new audiences."

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Key Takeaways

• "All is Vanity" masterfully intertwines personal and community narratives, exploring themes of vanity, identity, and compassion.
• Diane Froloff and Andrew Snyder's collaborative writing brought depth and balance to the episode, enhancing character development and thematic resonance.
• The episode's portrayal of controversial topics, such as Holling's circumcision, showcased the show's commitment to tackling complex issues with sensitivity and humor.
• Northern Exposure continues to impact audiences decades later, influencing music, personal lives, and inspiring future creators.

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Conclusion

Season 2, Episode 3 of Northern Disclosure, "All is Vanity," offers a rich exploration of Northern Exposure through the expert lens of Diane Froloff and Andrew Snyder. Their insights illuminate the meticulous crafting behind memorable episodes, reaffirming the show's enduring legacy in television history.

Transcript

[Rob Morrow]

The McDonald's Snack Wrap is back.

[Janine Turner]

You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap. Spicy snack wrap. You broke the Internet for a snack? Snack wrap is back.

[Andy Snyder]

Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lick pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control. Fast. Pee pads, Coleman, Petcammer. Fast and fast. And those training T R E a T s faster than you can say sit. Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on.

[Rob Morrow]

Prime.

[Andy Snyder]

Hello. Welcome to Northern Disclosure with Rob Morrow and Jeanine Turner. We're thrilled you're with us today where we walk through every episode of Northern Exposure. Today is season two, episode three. One of my all time favorite favorites all is Vanity, which. And we have special guests today. We have Andy Snyder and Diane Froloff, we call them Andy and Diane. And they are executive producers and supervising producers and writers and they're, they're, they're, they're Emmy award winners and they just. We're, we're family and we're thrilled that they're with us today. We're going to hear all kinds of behind the scenes about this particular episode and just how it works in general. I want to ask questions like, what does a supervising producer actually do? Because we were separate from them. We, we were way up in, you know, the north to the future, and they were in Los Angeles, but. Rob. Hello.

[Rob Morrow]

Hey, Janine. You look cute. How you doing?

[Janine Turner]

Thank you.

[Andy Snyder]

I think I might stick with this hair.

[Rob Morrow]

What do you think? Yeah, I doubt it. Every week as you. So here's the thing. You guys listening in the audience, you can be listening wherever you get your podcasts or you can be watching us on YouTube on the Northern Disclosure channel, and you can see how cute Janine is. But you could also see that pretty much every episode she has a different color hair. So you. Maybe, maybe we'll start a little subcategory of voters. People will vote on which one they like best. I have my Lady Gaga.

[Andy Snyder]

I'm the lady. I'm the Lady Gaga.

[Rob Morrow]

You're the Lady Gaga of podcast. Well, I love that you just say.

[Andy Snyder]

This was your favorite. I'm just curious.

[Rob Morrow]

No, no. Well, yes. No, no. My favorite was when, when Corbett was on. It was just kind of wild.

[Andy Snyder]

Oh, you liked the blonde. Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

Yes.

[Andy Snyder]

Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

Okay, fine. Enough about me. Let's talk. Think about me.

[Rob Morrow]

But I love that, first of all, I love that this is one of your favorite episodes. What is it that. That that is made it one of your favorites.

[Andy Snyder]

I, I thought the writing, of course, was simply brilliant and the way the three storylines were all equally as fantastic. And a lot of times the third storyline is sort of like, okay, but each storyline was simply mesmerizing. And the way they. They worked in with each other, the profound lines which, you know, we always write down our favorite lines that happened the. The way that the man died and they didn't know who he was and started to love him. And the town halls. I always love the town halls. And of course, we'll talk with Annie, Diane about this. The whole controversy of the turtleneck versus the crewneck, you know, was certain. Certain syndicators wouldn't air the show back in 1991. They thought it was too controversial. To a couple, not many, because we're talking.

[Rob Morrow]

We're talking about how Holling. John Cullum, played by John Cullum, who we just heard we're going to be having on as a guest on the show.

[Andy Snyder]

Yes.

[Rob Morrow]

For all those who are wondering, Holling decides to get a circumcision in his 60s because. And I. I wrote this down because Shelly says how many guys would get their Johnny Pe. Just to show his babe how much he cared. And so he decides to try to get a circumcision. And there's some great sequences and. And as Janine said, it was controversial at the time. And, and some, some networks or some. What do you call it? What are they called?

[Andy Snyder]

The syndicators.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, syndicators wouldn't put it on affiliates, affiliates. That's right. You're right, affiliates. I should also say that Nick Mark directed this, and Nick Mark directed nine episodes. I mean, he. That's almost like a tenth of the entire series. So Nick Mark is a. Is a big. And he was such a sweet guy. You remember him?

[Andy Snyder]

I do. I did. Rick as. When Rick came back as a dog, was with him as well.

[Rob Morrow]

And he was a lovely guy.

[Andy Snyder]

Directed beautifully, beautifully directed.

[Rob Morrow]

Some beautiful. That. There's a fantasy sequence with Holland, a dream sequence with Holling fearing his circumcision. But he was. He was a real big part of the show, as are Andy and Diane, who are, I think, you know, as crucial to the. To what Northern Exposure is and became and its success as anyone. They came in very early and eventually, for all intents and purposes, were running the show and, and certainly writing some of the best episodes.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, ditto. I agree with that. And you know, Rob, I finally remembered the first set. Remember? I couldn't remember the first studio because it was. First two seasons were enough.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, you did? Oh, good. I'm glad.

[Andy Snyder]

And the reason I remember it is because Annie and Diane, we, we would eat lunch upstairs. Do you remember that? We would get our food and we'd go upstairs and I was like, oh, okay. I finally do remember that first studio and Andy and Diane's the first time I ever met them. They came upstairs and said hello to us in that. I remember the first time I met Andy and Diane.

[Rob Morrow]

It was, that's a good memory.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. So it was obviously very important to me and it's because it stuck with me. I, I finally remembered. But you know what else I thought was really funny in the storyline and now you want to walk through the actual plot was this hilarious situation with Maggie o' Connell with her father coming into town.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, it's so great.

[Andy Snyder]

Wearing that pink hat and those pink mittens. And when I calls her Margaret. Yeah, Peanut. Calls her Peanut. But that scene that, you know, obviously Nick Mark directed very well of the, you know, it would have been a long dolly, you know, where I'm walking really quickly and I'm looking for you and I'm tripping and I'm looking for you to make sure. I don't know, I, I, I, I don't always laugh at my own stuff, but I just thought that was hilarious. I thought it was the setup, the writing that gave me the opportunity to portray that was, was really a lot of fun.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. And I'm just gonna read a little one line synopsis of the episode for people who either don't remember or haven't seen it yet. This episode, all is vanity is Maggie purports Joel to be her boyfriend to gain her father's approval. Holling comes to a very personal decision and then it doesn't it. There's, Wait, there's more Here, let me see. Oh, this. Holling impresses Shelley with chivalrous bravery, but a remark from her makes him inquire about circumcision not recommended for an adult man, according to Joel. After Chris broadcasts the locally unprecedented procedure, Holling dares not pull out, no pun intended. Maggie pretends to be her visiting father, Frank O'. Connell. She has a perfect boyfriend without warning Dr. Joel Fleishman that he's the man for the job, so he enjoys overdoing it. Mayor Maurice commandeers first Ed as the outdoors more guard, and then Joel as a reluctant coroner to help him start the investigation for a John Doe corpse who is soon claimed by the locals, although nobody knows him. Interesting. Yeah, I mean that the, the whole thing with this dead body is fascinating and it, the way it's played out, you know, that they. They don't have a morgue in Sicily, so they have to just put him outside. And the whole town comes to mourn this person who they don't know because I think it's one of the great features of Northern Exposure is the. The basic respect for life in general, you know.

[Andy Snyder]

Absolutely. And there was a great line, I've been trying to look for it here, that, that when John Corbett, you know, Chris in the Morning is speaking, it just talks about, well, we live each day like pre. Oh, no, that was Maurice. This is a great line. We live each day like a pre flight check.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

Am I. Am I prepared for liftoff?

[Rob Morrow]

You know, I love that.

[Andy Snyder]

That was really great. And then also the way John. Chris in the Morning has the great speech. I'm trying to look for Andy and Dime will probably remember when out there with. And then I read the sonnet, which is my. I don't.

[Rob Morrow]

So beautiful.

[Andy Snyder]

That was my all time favorite. It still is my all time favorite poem.

[Rob Morrow]

And I'm a poem so beautiful.

[Andy Snyder]

And. And then Shelly says, man, she really can write.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, let's. How about we bring them in? You want to bring them in?

[Andy Snyder]

Yes. Okay. All right, great. So, ladies and gentlemen, let's bring them in. Maybe they can remember some of these lines. I wrote all these notes, you know, very quickly. Ladies and gentlemen, the great, the wonderful, the award winning, this just truly beautiful human beings. Andy Snyder and. And Diane Froloff, everybody.

[Diane Froloff]

Hi.

[Janine Turner]

Hello.

[Rob Morrow]

So good to see you guys.

[Janine Turner]

Likewise. Very happy to be here.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. Oh, it's a joy.

[Rob Morrow]

I have such great memories of the work. The work. Every time I read a script with your name on it. So. So this is a married couple who've been writing for, I don't know, 100 years together. And they, they, they went on to go to write on the Sopranos after and the Chris Isaac show there. There's such incredible variety and, and in their writing and, and humanity and pathos and humor. I'd love to know first how you guys came to be writing together and then how you ended up on Northern Exposure.

[Diane Froloff]

Well, we didn't start writing together until eight years into our marriage. It took us that long to work that out.

[Rob Morrow]

You were separate, you were writing separately.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah, we were writing separately. And then we were hired onto the same show. We were hired onto Alienation and. And then we did a summer show with Robin Green. With Robin Green called Room for Romance.

[Rob Morrow]

I never heard of that one.

[Janine Turner]

Well, brief lived and. But it, it introduced us to cbs.

[Andy Snyder]

Yes.

[Janine Turner]

And they Recommended us to Josh and John when the. When Northern had been picked up for the second season, you know, it was never expected to go beyond that first summer episodes.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, we know. Because there was no support for it. They didn't even. They just dumped it, basically.

[Janine Turner]

And they were amazed that people tuned in and they picked up that second season. And that's when we came on to the show. And then we were on for the rest of the run.

[Diane Froloff]

But we. We first started writing on Alienation together.

[Rob Morrow]

How does that work?

[Janine Turner]

We actually started like, each would write an act, but that led to potential divorce.

[Andy Snyder]

That's what I was wondering.

[Janine Turner]

We literally write everything, every scene together.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

We're always together at the time.

[Diane Froloff]

We don't give notes.

[Rob Morrow]

We don't. I want to point out what's so distinct about your scripts. Always was the male, female balance. You know, the female. You know, there was. You know, because when guys write women, it's. It's Sometimes it's hard to capture that real difference between the men and women. And I always remember that. That. Because Diane was, you know, there to at least say no. A woman would never say that or something like that. Or, you know, Andy would have some, you know, represent thoughts about how a guy would be. I thought that it gave a great balance. Is. I would. I would assume that aspect worked into all your writing.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. And. But Diane would be a little more direct. She would say, don't do that. Women hate that.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. I'm sure.

[Andy Snyder]

You know, I love the title all is Vanity. I've remembered that forever. And then, of course, it's from Ecclesiastes 1, 2. All is vanity and a Chasing after the Wind, when Solomon is finally like, what's life all about? You know, all is Vanity. Talk about how you came up with that title, because I think that was just a great, great title.

[Janine Turner]

That was you?

[Diane Froloff]

That was me.

[Janine Turner]

Diane had many, many years in the Lutheran church.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

So she was very conversant with old and New Testament. So. And that became. That was the theme of the episode. In every episode we wrote, we would always look for some kind of unifying theme. And each of those stories is a reflection of that which comes together at the funeral.

[Rob Morrow]

Where would the themes come from? Would they be. Cause you would break a story as a. With Josh and John or just on your own? How would that work? And then the theme would emerge after you started writing or before, you know, it depended.

[Diane Froloff]

Sometimes the theme would come first, and sometimes as we were developing this story, we would say, oh, this is what it's About. We always ask ourselves, what is this about? What are we. What are we saying here?

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, we might have nifty ideas for stories, but the question is, but how do they tie together? How do we make this feel, even though they're disparate stories? How do we make it feel like a whole. In some way?

[Andy Snyder]

Well, I have a question. Do y'. All. Would y' all get together in a production meeting, you know, and kind of plan out this whole second season? Like, we want to. Let's establish Maggie's father and let's establish. Let's bring, you know, Fleischman and. Because that was. That was kind of almost the flirtiest Fleischman in o' Connell had ever been. You know, Rob and I talked about that scene outside with the spaghetti straps, you know, when I gave him closure for Elaine was sort of the beginning. But this is now it's kind of stepping up. You could see the electricity and the banter was. Wasn't always so rough. It was a little flirtatious. But did you do plan out the whole second season and say, these are the character arcs that we want to see in this particular season? And is Josh in the room with you when you. When you're doing that?

[Janine Turner]

Sometimes we'd have a vague notion of where we'd want to go, but the episodes and the seasons almost had a life of their own, and they would sort of point you how far to go, when to pull back. There was very rarely a grand scheme.

[Diane Froloff]

We were also watching you, you know, and seeing, oh, this works and this is good. Or this really annoys Maggie.

[Andy Snyder]

So we got it.

[Diane Froloff]

We had.

[Rob Morrow]

That's interesting because it's. Because, as Janine pointed out, the. A couple episodes ago, she plays my surrogate fiance, and here I come in and play it. You know, we turn the tables and I'm playing her. Her surrogate boyfriend. Yeah. Which. Which must have come. You must kind of building on that. What The. Thematically, the. We have the body. The story of the John Doe body. A guy shows up in. In. In Joel's waiting room, and he's dead and nobody knows who he is. And the town has to deal with the corpse without having a coroner or a morgue. And then you have Janine's story, Maggie's story, Margaret's story, peanut story. And. And how she told. Tells her father that. That she's got this, you know, classically, you know, catch a Jewish doctor from New York. And then she's got. And then we have the. The. The circumcision storyline with Holling what I can see. The. The circumcision one seems like an interesting kind of ironic twist on vanity, but the. And I guess the. The dead body is this the notion of mortality and ultimate vanity after the wind all is. What is. How is the vanity of Janine's storyline, Maggie's storyline?

[Diane Froloff]

Well, she wants to please her father. She wants to present herself in the image that she knows he'll like or she believes that he'll like. So that's her vanity. She wants to live up to what she thinks her father wants.

[Janine Turner]

Janine, we gotta compliment your performance, because here's a woman who, on one hand, doesn't want to be part of her dad's world, on the other hand is desperate for his approval. And your sense of. Your push, pull in, that was. Was so palpable. And your vulnerability in that situation is just great.

[Rob Morrow]

I so agree. And that. And how adorable you look in that pink hat and the frilly collar and the. And the gloves that have the string that's attached.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah, the little girl. The little girl.

[Andy Snyder]

But, you know, it's all on the page. It's on the page. You know, if it's not on the page, it's not on the stage. And. And y' all wrote it.

[Rob Morrow]

And.

[Andy Snyder]

And some of these. Thank you for that compliment, by the way. I really appreciate it. And. But you gave me those opportunities. And. But the. The opening lines, even. It'd be fun to talk about these lines that you. You came up with. Oh, and I, you know, they love to hear behind the scenes, that people are listening. Want to know behind the scenes, I have a pet peeve. And a pet peeve of mine is when someone's carrying a suitcase or a box or something, and, you know, there's nothing. Right.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

And so I wasn't going to lift off the back of the truck unless they were really heavy. It's like, make them really heavy so that I'm not looking like I'm carrying, you know, a really airtight. But that when. When Fleischer walks by, he goes, there's a little ice over there. I'm like, you can help. And he's got this great line like, oh, I wouldn't see you talk about Calamity Jane. Why would I want to interfere with Calamity Jane? You're the torch bearer of the pioneer spirit, you know, and then I come back and say, why were you born, Fleischman? A mosquito has more utilitarian value. Utilitarian. You. The. The tapeworm. Those are great lines.

[Diane Froloff]

Those are so.

[Andy Snyder]

Did Y' all not come up with that?

[Janine Turner]

It was always a challenge for Maggie to insult him without using any obscenities. So we, we would often use insect references, lizard references, virus references to that.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, like you're the most obnoxious. What is it, Rob? I say it all the time. You're the most vile, odious, pernicious waste of corporal souls I've ever had the fortune to lay my eyes on.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, yeah, There you go. Oh, that's interesting. That's illuminating because now we know why those are all the Right. It forces you to write better lines.

[Andy Snyder]

Right.

[Rob Morrow]

Because curse words are easy, you know.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Janine Turner]

And I'll say one other thing. So you know Rob's whole line about helping and his Calamity Jane thing? Josh said this was early on. He said you can write him a ton of lines, just have him go on and on because he's a New Yorker and he's a talker, and if one line is good, give him three in there. So that's why it kind of. Your speeches would often build in that way.

[Rob Morrow]

It's funny because I used to say that if Joel could say something one way, he'd say it three way. Like it was, you know, I mean, normally for the sake of brevity, you'd be cutting speeches because there was a qua. You know, almost redundancy. But it was part of his character.

[Janine Turner]

But. And you had a great ability to build the intensity as the line went on.

[Rob Morrow]

Right, right.

[Janine Turner]

So it kept like it played because the energy kept rising within that line.

[Andy Snyder]

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[Rob Morrow]

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[Andy Snyder]

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[Rob Morrow]

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[Janine Turner]

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[Janine Turner]

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[Rob Morrow]

Dairy free your mind. Visit sodeliciousdairyfree.com thanks. Well, it was well written, for sure. And I just want to just mention while we're here that John McCann played Frank O', Connell, your dad. And he was. He was just perfect. Classic.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, he was really, really, really good. He was. And Rob, some of your looks were really spot on. Oh, and Column had a great look. This is. This is a tribute to John Column's acting. He's. You could see him thinking about whether to do this. And there's a simple. You know, it's funny. Meryl Streep is always like this. Meryl Streep. There's only always one moment in the movie that you remember. You know, many moments, but there's always a one moment that you walk away with remembering what she did. And Rob, no, John Column is in Holland's bar and he's thinking about whether he wants to get be circumcised or not. And Joel, Joel walks in. Fleischman walks in and says, hey, can I have a cup of coffee or something? And. And call him. I don't remember the exact words. It would take too much time to look it up. But Column says something like, coffee, sure, but you can tell he's not thinking about coffee at all. You know, he's thinking about, oh, Rob walked in and what am I. His mind was somewhere else where he. It was really a good acting moment. I thought that moment where he goes up to you, Rob, and then Shelly comes up and says, isn't he brave? You know, I also liked the twist that you give Rob at the end, the Fleischmann at the end where he's making it all look super dangerous. You know, he. He kind of. He kind of found a way to not do it after John Column comes and he's drunk at his house. And that was a sense of humanity. I think everybody in the end comes to their moment of resolve and goodness. Maggie confesses. You know, Shelley loves him. Anyway. Everybody in the town loves the dead body. That's what we talk about a lot was so wonderful about the show is this sense of just humanity and everybody cares. Cares about one another. But that scene with Rob where he makes. He's making the, you know, the scalpel look really bad at the end and whatever those instruments he's holding, like, okay, come on, strip now. And Shelly's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That was a. Wasn't that a pre. Thought of Fleischman's. To think I'm going to try to get out of it this way. And then he just happens to see that on his neck. What were Yalls thoughts about that?

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, well, he knew that Holly was desperate not to do this, but wouldn't stop it out of his vanity and love for Shelley. So it was an act of great compassion on Fleischman's part to scare him to death and scare Shelley.

[Diane Froloff]

And I want to say, Rob, you were so tender and delicate in the scene with Holling, when you're discussing the operation and you know, about where it's going to take place.

[Andy Snyder]

Well, there were some great lines in there.

[Rob Morrow]

And again, Nick Mark, you know, got to give credit to Nick Mark there.

[Diane Froloff]

Oh, I'm sorry. So glad you mentioned.

[Janine Turner]

I think the only time that the word penis was used in the script was in a medical sense.

[Rob Morrow]

You're right.

[Janine Turner]

But Shelly never uses that word. Holly never uses that word.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

Oh, yeah. Well, I was just going to say in that scene that you're talking about where Rob was really compassionate. I'm sorry, I don't have all the lines, but he says he wants something new, and he's talking about getting a circumcision. He goes, new, like. Like hip or something. Like pleated pants, like an earring. But. But you. You had it done, right? He goes, yeah, but I'm Jewish. It's in the contract. You know, those are some. Those are some great lines of work.

[Rob Morrow]

Where did the turtleneck metaphor come from? That was genius, too. Did you guys make that up? Or is that a. Commonly used. By the way, I just want to tell the audience we're talking about lines in the movie where Holling refers to. Or Shelley says, you can get a. You can have a crewneck, meaning a circumcised Johnny, as she says. Or you can have a turtleneck, which is the uncircumcised.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. When she says, let's look at the pictures. You know, my. My friend had a nose job, and we got to see all the pictures of the before and after. That was hilarious, too.

[Rob Morrow]

Where did that come from? Did you guys make it up? Yeah, probably.

[Janine Turner]

That's.

[Rob Morrow]

It's funny. It's great. It's really clever. Well, let. Janine was talking a little while ago about the controversy. Do you remember any of that in terms of the affiliates?

[Janine Turner]

I actually did not remember that.

[Diane Froloff]

No, I didn't. I don't.

[Andy Snyder]

Do you remember it wrong? Do you remember?

[Rob Morrow]

I do. I mean, I vaguely remember it for sure, because I know there was a few times whenever we touched on any kind of, you know, potentially controversial thing, there would be a couple Stations that. That would. Would bridle.

[Andy Snyder]

Well, this was. Even though it speaks to the innocence of the days, doesn't it?

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm curious, you know, Janine and I talked about the show, something we picked up. We're not sure where we picked it up, but we both love it. And we refer to the world of Northern Exposure as a benevolent universe. And we were talking to. We had Josh Brand, the creator, one of the co. Creator of the show on, and we were talking to him about it and he didn't mention it, but he sent me an email shortly after saying, by the way, I never said it's a benevolent universe. That's too sappy for me. It's not a benevolent universe. He thinks David Chase might have said it in a derogatory way.

[Janine Turner]

No, Josh always referred to Sicily as a non judgmental universe.

[Rob Morrow]

That's what he said. Which is very different and still equally interesting. But do you remember ever hearing the phrase benevolent universe?

[Janine Turner]

No, it was always non judgmental.

[Rob Morrow]

Right, right. That's funny.

[Andy Snyder]

I like benevolent.

[Rob Morrow]

I do too. Janine and I are using it.

[Janine Turner]

The result of non judgment is benevolent. I think that's the result of that.

[Rob Morrow]

But you know, he would say, he said to me, no, there's no, you know, the universe doesn't have a. What do you call it, a dog in the, in the race. You know, that it doesn't care how things turn out. And I think Janine and I maybe being a little more optimistic, you know, you know, want to believe that and I get it. I mean, I understand the kind of materialistic view of life that, that it's non, you know, that it's not that there's no dog in the race, but, but not judgmental is, is a specific thing.

[Andy Snyder]

But I love that non judgmental leads to benevolence. You know, that's kind of a. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

That'S a good way. We'll use that. We'll steal that.

[Andy Snyder]

But, you know, and, and I want to touch on something. We were talking about dialogue and how you couldn't say curse words or things of that nature. So you had to come, you were forced. And that's one of the things I loved about your writing. Every, every script that you wrote was like a short story. It was so exciting just to read it. The intricacy of the philosophy and the, the words that, the choice of words that you had to do is really fascinating. And, and there aren't any words like stuff or huh. You know what I mean? It was. There's no slang you have. You really had to work harder. But because of it, it was so much richer.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah. We had books strewn all over the floor.

[Janine Turner]

This was before you could Google.

[Andy Snyder]

I know.

[Janine Turner]

We used to go to the library.

[Rob Morrow]

What. What's that?

[Andy Snyder]

What kind of books would you get at the library?

[Diane Froloff]

We read a lot of Campbell.

[Janine Turner]

Joseph Campbell.

[Diane Froloff]

Joseph Campbell.

[Janine Turner]

And poetry.

[Diane Froloff]

And poetry.

[Janine Turner]

Because Chris on the radio was always using poetry.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. And philosophy. Philosophy.

[Janine Turner]

Philosophy, yes.

[Diane Froloff]

Yes.

[Andy Snyder]

And psychology.

[Diane Froloff]

Psychology, yeah.

[Janine Turner]

So we have these books like An Idiot's Guide to Hegel.

[Andy Snyder]

That's great. I love Hegel. I love Hegel. Right.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

We mentioned the dia. Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

The dialect thesis.

[Janine Turner]

Anti.

[Rob Morrow]

Thesis.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, we trotted that out.

[Andy Snyder]

I read my Socrates Desart philosophy book.

[Rob Morrow]

It's interesting, the Joseph Campbell of it. Cause, you know, in a way, the.

[Janine Turner]

The.

[Rob Morrow]

The net. The net effect of the entire series, you know, is a lot on your shoulder. On the two of your shoulders. And I remember arguing with Josh early on that Joel needed to change in. In the kind of. In the Joseph Campbell sense of the hero's journey, you know.

[Andy Snyder]

Can we explain to people who Joseph Campbell is?

[Rob Morrow]

Sure. Well, then why don't we let these guys? They're the experts.

[Janine Turner]

Well, he was a great historian of mythology and comparative religion, and he wrote books explaining that the. How myths across different cultures and times share very common themes and commonalities.

[Diane Froloff]

And he talked about the hero's journey that you're referring to, Rob. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

And Star wars is based on his writings.

[Andy Snyder]

Yes.

[Rob Morrow]

But, you know, but I used to argue with Josh that. That, you know, in the hero's journey, the hero, you know, comes back, you know, learns something, is transformed by the experience, and there's a lot of kind of, you know, common imagery and. And that. That change that the hero goes through to transform and comes back to the. To the world, to his town, to his society, with some kind of knowledge or something, some gift or boon or something. I used to say he's got a. You know, Joel's got to change. Because sometimes I felt like he was stagnating like that, that he. He should have learned certain lessons by now, you know, and it was. I used to fight with them about wearing clothes. You know, I wanted to wear clothes that were more reflective than the environment, not. Not wearing loafers in. You know, and, you know, it just. At a certain. Initially it was funny, but at a certain point, he's. He would adapt. But my. My point is, Josh said to me, if we do 100 shows, Joel will be the same as he was on the beginning. And I remember thinking different. And then Josh and John left the show after 66 episodes. And you guys. I mean, even though David Chase came in, right, you guys were really, for all intents and purposes, kind of running the show. Is that correct or am I right?

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, we shared those duties, but yeah, we were executive producers then and yeah, we worked together.

[Rob Morrow]

And you took Joel on a journey that I don't think Josh. Josh never watched any episode after 66, so he doesn't know what happened to Joel. But like, I think he really. I mean, I remember talking to you guys about it. The transformation by the end of the series was, was profound in terms of someone changed.

[Andy Snyder]

Well, you kind of changed, but you left and went back to your original beginning. So I don't.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, but that's the hero's journey.

[Diane Froloff]

Yes.

[Andy Snyder]

You go back. You go back or the home. The Elliot and the Odyssey.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Diane Froloff]

You re. You return to your village, changed.

[Andy Snyder]

That's very much the Iliad and the. That's Homer, right?

[Rob Morrow]

Absolutely.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

So what was the difference between writing when Josh was there and then when he was. Do you. Is there some kind of demarcation where something happened? I know, I know story wise, things changed, but.

[Janine Turner]

Well, I, I just speak. Josh is brilliant and he really set the tone of the show. He has a great sense of humor, a great sense of irony, and he. It was his line, a non judgmental universe that we kept playing into and.

[Diane Froloff]

We kept playing into his idea of the woods.

[Janine Turner]

So. Yeah, so when he and John left, we still wanted to keep the show grounded in what it was. I think the idea of Joel's journey to that village was just part of like, well, what do we do now? What do we do? How do we expand this universe? And, and we. Because we also brought in another doctor, so it was like we had to do something.

[Andy Snyder]

I wasn't very happy about that. You know, it was like, why are we trying to bring in another doctor to. That's like the same as Rob. I mean, that, that, that was a. I wanted Marilyn to be the doctor, you know, like, do something really original. Like, let's, let's do. Why are we trying to. Because you couldn't replace Rob, right? It's like, no, no, that's a whole nother story. But. That's a whole nother story. But anyway, the specific question, I guess was about the structure of the writing. But can I ask you a question about what a supervisor supervising. Because in these credits I noticed that, Diane, you were supervising producer as well as executive Weren't you executive producers already?

[Diane Froloff]

Initially.

[Rob Morrow]

Initially they might have been in this show.

[Andy Snyder]

What were your credits?

[Janine Turner]

Well, originally we were given. We had different credits. And then as it. As it was clear that we were a team and Universal says we're not going to pay you two salaries. You guys are a team.

[Andy Snyder]

I think you're listed twice here. It's like, Diane, you were exact. You were supervising producer. And then you both. Both your names were listed together. Maybe that's because you both wrote it. Is that what I saw that was possible? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[Diane Froloff]

But then. Yeah, and I. That's where I started out. And then, and then.

[Andy Snyder]

But what was your title, Andy?

[Janine Turner]

Because I don't know, maybe co. Exact or something. Because I had.

[Andy Snyder]

Yes, yes.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah.

[Andy Snyder]

Okay. So Diane was supervising producer, and then Andy, you are co. Executive producer. So tell us what a supervising producer does.

[Janine Turner]

It. It's meaningless. No, I mean, those terms are so elastic.

[Diane Froloff]

No, I would.

[Andy Snyder]

In my mind, a supervising producer would be someone that's going to the music, making sure the music's going into the loop. So who does that then?

[Diane Froloff]

We did all of that.

[Janine Turner]

We did it together and we. But it was. Titles are given out for various reasons.

[Diane Froloff]

I hadn't earned in time that title.

[Rob Morrow]

It usually means. So they can pay them less than executive producer. That's really what it comes down to.

[Diane Froloff]

Well, at that point, when I came on, it was Josh. He was.

[Janine Turner]

Josh and John were the executive producers, but was they kind of bifurcated? John went on to All Fly Away and Josh stayed with Northern. That's how they split their duties.

[Andy Snyder]

See, I don't think I knew that. Did you know that, Rob?

[Rob Morrow]

I did know that and Josh talked about it when he was on. But I always felt that the, The DNA of the show came from Josh more than John. Even when he was around at the beginning, it just. The sensibilities when Josh talked about the show resonated for me. When John. I mean, John was great and everything, but I didn't feel like it was from him. His loins as much as it was from John was.

[Andy Snyder]

John was a much darker, deeper sort of intensive soul. And Josh is. Is this brilliant, but he, his kids, he's more cerebral and, and. And everything has a quirkiness and he has. He has kind of a sense of humor about things. I mean, that's just. Was always my hit. John was always a very intensive character. So I'll Fly Away was a more intensive drama, but Northern Exposure was more quirky. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

Do you two remember anything about the episode? Did you Watch it just recently to prep for you.

[Janine Turner]

Yes.

[Andy Snyder]

Yes.

[Rob Morrow]

So did anything stand. Come out at you in terms of memories of. You must have been there. You tended to come up together, I think. Right. So you were. Because these guys were in LA writing, but they would come up. You never. You never moved up to. You were there a lot. Once in. Once in the later seasons, but you weren't there on. You didn't live there, right?

[Diane Froloff]

No. And I wish we could have been there more, and I wish we could have always had a writer there. That was one thing we came away thinking after doing the show was how important it was to have a writer on the set. That. And we always have done that after that because it's just not the same having, you know, telephone conversations and it. I think what happens is you get an us and them kind of situation when you're divided up like that.

[Janine Turner]

Some.

[Andy Snyder]

You know, I agree with that. And then we ended up having to do a lot of that. That exemplary writing that came in looping. We were made to do it in looping.

[Rob Morrow]

And an interesting. I think it's an interesting point because for the listeners, you know, they. They would write the show in la, send the script up to us, we would work with the director and shoot it. But, you know, the realities of shooting can sometimes differ, no matter what's on the page or how good it is. And so you could be walking down the street, or it could start to rain, you know, and no one anticipated it. So the problem we became was if we needed to change a line saying instead of, oh, it's so sunny today to, oh, my God, it's raining, or it would be.

[Janine Turner]

It would.

[Rob Morrow]

It would take calling la, getting the right person on the phone, getting the permission, you know, and we would lose time and frustration. So I think your point, Diane, is. Is really valid having. Having the writer there to see. Oh, yeah, it's, you know, it's. It's. It's not sunny today is a good.

[Andy Snyder]

And I wish y' all had been up there with us, you know, it was just. There was this. We didn't get to know you very well. We worked so many long hours, we rarely saw you and.

[Rob Morrow]

Except they had the best Emmy parties ever. I still remember them. They had the best food. We would go when we got the nominated, we would come into town, we would all fly in and get on our. Our. Our evening wear, and then end up at like, one or midnight at. At Andy and Diane's great house. And are you still. Is that the house? I'm Wearing. No, no, in Los Feliz.

[Janine Turner]

I think it was in Los Feliz. That's right.

[Rob Morrow]

And you remember, Janine, you remember those spreads? There was. I just remember being. I was probably stoned and drunk at the time, you know, by the end of the night. And they would have these like elaborate dessert spreads that were just like, you know, it was just like every kind of brownie you could eat. And it was always great because I think, to your point, Jeanine, that's when we would sometimes meet people that we never. Assistant editors.

[Andy Snyder]

And I'm like, well, who's Cheryl Block? You know?

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Andy Snyder]

I think the first time I met Cheryl, maybe she'd come up to the set and I love Cheryl Block. But I mean, I remember one of the first time I ever knew which they picked us up at the hotel or something, and I was in the back of their car with Darren. Darren Burrows. They picked us up to take us somewhere and. And I was in the back of the car and I'm like, oh, I was so. You know, it's funny how naive we could still be at that age, right? I'm like, am I in a Rolls Royce? You know, I'm in hot Beverly Hills. I think I'm in a Rolls Royce. And I don't think I actually was. But it was also new to us.

[Rob Morrow]

We should say. Cheryl Block was instrumental in making the show. She was. Her title is actually producer, which in television tends to mean the person who really makes it happen, you know, in terms of getting all the elements coming together, you know, the bridge between creative and logistics. And she really. She was extraordinary. I think. You guys. You guys agree?

[Diane Froloff]

Oh, yeah.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, yeah.

[Diane Froloff]

Oh, yeah.

[Janine Turner]

You know, we haven't seen Cheryl in a long time, but we maintained a relationship long after Northern. She knows she's. She went into. She became an executive and she worked for Lifetime for a while and then another production company. We haven't talked to her recently. ABC.

[Andy Snyder]

We saw her at the ABC. ABC or NBC. We did that special in about 2008, remember Rob, with Josh, you and me and.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, was she there? I don't remember.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, she was there.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, that's right. All right. She. She. She now is. Has a company with Leslie Linka Gloucer and they do interesting tv. They just did that Robert De Niro Netflix show, post apocalyptic thing. That was really interesting.

[Andy Snyder]

I have a question about the writing. May I go back to the writing? Okay. When, when we were on the. When, when the. I thought it was really fascinating that they put the, the body out on, you know, in the air for. In the. In the snow. In it for a vigil. And then I thought it was wonderful that this town folk came to pay homage to him. And then little bitty trinkets, like little plastic yo yos or whatever, on. On his gr. On his table with him. And then. Rob, did you catch it, too? There was this great shot with a little deer.

[Rob Morrow]

I know. I was like, what? And it just happened to be there.

[Andy Snyder]

And then we had that totem pole. The totem pole was. I don't know if we moved it or whatever we did. It was all. I mean, always there, but there was the totem pole. There was the deer. There were mounds and mounds of snow. And I'm really interested. We brought more snow in because I don't think we ever got that much snow. And then you had him. But did y' all write in the script you. Geez, I wish I had them all. How I wish I had all those scripts. But, I mean, it. Did y' all write in. Do you have all of them?

[Rob Morrow]

Every single one. Everyone that I was in.

[Andy Snyder]

I don't know. Maybe I. But I kept my favorites, and maybe they're in this. I have a huge storage house, so they're probably in there. But the. When it. When the little, like, the yo yos were put on the table with. With the. The man who had passed with his body there. Did y' all write that in the script?

[Janine Turner]

Yes. I don't. I don't remember how many specifics, but we did write that idea that they were honoring him with little things, little offerings.

[Diane Froloff]

So I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it was. Nick had something to do with the specifics of.

[Janine Turner]

And Woody, you know, the production designer. I was going to say one thing about, you know, putting the body out on a table in the middle of town. We were always looking for ways to. I could play the town and play the environment, even though some of it was crazy, but people believed it. People would say, you know, I grew up in a town just like Sicily, and it is true, like, in the winter in that part of Alaska or north, you can't dig in the ground. It's permafrost. And you have to, like, store the bodies outside or somewhere where it stays very cold. So it's great to be able to use elements like that to just explain.

[Andy Snyder]

Show the environment and just the historic aspect of life that people miss. And ironically, I think that's why it's so popular even today is people miss that simplicity of life. It's like, oh, there's not a corner. Oh, wow. People had to exist in the wild west or in the north, or they had to figure out a way to make things work amongst themselves. It's really sort of federalism at its best. They have their own town hall and they're gonna figure it out themselves. Right, right. I, I mean, and Holly's there. I don't know if he was the mayor at that time. I don't even if we had a mayor, but Holly's there and he gavels everybody in and gavels everybody out, and it's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's so American.

[Rob Morrow]

He was the mayor, I think, until you challenged him.

[Andy Snyder]

Oh, yeah. I don't even remember that. Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

All is democracy, I think, is the.

[Andy Snyder]

Did I win? Did I win?

[Rob Morrow]

I can't remember. We'll get there.

[Andy Snyder]

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[Rob Morrow]

So here's an interesting question. David Chase, right, right. Came on and, and he's, he's on record publicly for not loving the show. He did not like it. He didn't think it was good. He thought it, I think. And Josh says that he thinks he's the one who came up with the phrase benevolent universe as a, as a derogatory, as a kind of like that. It was too, too Pollyanna. You know, in some way, I, I, first of all, I really liked him and, and I knew, I, I know he had issues being there, you know, that he took it for a quote, a paycheck. Again, this is public record. I'm not speaking out of school. But how was that experience? David Chase is arguably one of the great television writers in history.

[Andy Snyder]

Oh, you're putting him on the spot now? They worked on both shows, man.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, I know, but I'm not looking for them. I'm curious. Like. Well, I'm curious what they. How that. What that relationship.

[Janine Turner]

I'll tell you this. David Chase is endlessly creative. So whatever his feelings about the show, it never came out in the writers room. It was always like, oh, this would be. This would be cool. What if we did this and what if we did that? You know, he came up with a lot of great ideas.

[Diane Froloff]

We had a lot of fun with David and we had a lot of fun with the writers in the room. That was, you know, I think the.

[Janine Turner]

Episode where Maurice has a wax figure made of himself. Do you remember that one? And then it troubles him. He's got this look alike. I think that was David's idea.

[Diane Froloff]

Oh, I was gonna tell a little story about David when we were.

[Rob Morrow]

Do it, please.

[Diane Froloff]

Okay. So we went up to see. Up to the set to see you, and we checked into a hotel and we get a call from him and he says, I think my room is. Is too big. I think that you should have the room because there's two of you and there's just one of me. So we said, okay. We took our rollerboards up there and we get to the room and the door is open a crack. And we call David, David. And we go in and he has staged a murder scene.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh my God.

[Diane Froloff]

And he's the body on the floor.

[Janine Turner]

He's lying on the carpet. A lamp is turned over and.

[Rob Morrow]

Did you buy it?

[Janine Turner]

No, no, it was ridiculous, but it was hilarious.

[Andy Snyder]

Of the Sopranos?

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. Well, by the way, there is a. In an episode after I left, there's like eight episodes or something. One of them is. Has a lot of foreshadowing of the Sopranos. It's like the doctor Phil comes from a gangster kind of a mob family or something. And there was really tones from. From Sopranos. But how did. How many of you. So you. You guys and Robin Green and Martin Bruce Lee. Who else went on to the Sopranos? Anyone else did Mitch or.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, Mitch Henry.

[Rob Morrow]

Henry.

[Janine Turner]

Henry passed away. I'm trying to remember what year he. He died in. But he. He was not on Sopranos.

[Andy Snyder]

Where is Martin Bruce Lee now? Do you know? Know?

[Janine Turner]

Yes. Like Texas or is he in Texas? Well, Minnesota. He's from Minnesota.

[Andy Snyder]

Texas or Minnesota, That's a little.

[Janine Turner]

No, Well, a little different, but I think he. He's not in the business. I think he inherited like a house. I want to say Texas. I could be wrong.

[Rob Morrow]

We're going to track him down. We're going to track him down for sure.

[Andy Snyder]

Music. The music in this show was amazing.

[Janine Turner]

He was a force for that. He was great.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. And the Fiddler on the Roof, you know, you played Fiddler on the Roof.

[Rob Morrow]

I love that. And it's subtle. It's just so subtle underneath. Like, it just kind of gets very quiet, but it's there. It's a great texture.

[Andy Snyder]

And there was jazz. Like, just. Yeah, jazz playing. I mean, the music was. Was so. It was so amazing. And. And this. This show was really great. I'm trying to think more about the show that we might want to talk about on this particular show. So there was. There was a scene where the father, at the end, he says, you know, I'm not a fool. So what do you think? What was he saying there? You think he'd figured it out early on that, yeah, Joel wasn't really my boyfriend.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah, he had.

[Janine Turner]

Well, certainly. Particularly when Joel is overdoing it with the bungee jumping.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

But he does. He gives me a couple looks throughout the episode where you see him going, wait a minute, what's going on here?

[Janine Turner]

Right.

[Rob Morrow]

And being a good father, he kind of lets you come to it on your own, I guess.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, but you wrote. Everything you wrote was so rich. The characters had. Had a lot of different layers and characters going on. I always talk about it as sort of the juxtaposition or what is it? I always say. I always say everybody had a sort of a ying and a yang. There was. There was a. I guess that harkens back to how we started the show, which is when you wrote as a team, you have Maurice, you know, the big astronaut, you know, but then he would cry and get kind of sensitive or iron Diane's underwear, you know, his. There's always this juxtaposition within the duplicity in the characters. And you even talked about, oh, I have a question for you, Rob. This is. You might have some of these, too. You talked about the fact you had that Maggie o' Connell and Gross point. I didn't get to write it all down, but she had been a beauty queen. I guess you established that she'd been a beauty queen, and she was always been kind of scared to go to camp. And that was me. I had been a little beauty queen up until the age of six. After that, it was over. But I was scared to go to camp. And yet I'm this outdoorsy girl. I live on a ranch right now. I'm hiking through the woods, and, you know, I just fell and hurt my rib, and I'm looking For my bull that's injured and all these kind of stories that I have. But. But then also the Shakespearean sonnet. Did y' all know that was my favorite Shakespearean sonnet?

[Janine Turner]

Well, it could be my favorite Shakespearean song.

[Andy Snyder]

So it's just. I. Because. Because we read these things, like, my mother loved Orange Marmalade. And suddenly my mother comes to town and she love. In the show, Maggie's mother, and she loves Orange Marmalade. And you just go, okay. You know, it's like, are they listening to my phone calls? It's like, what's happening? How do y' all get it so right? But were you thinking that? Did you know any of those things about me or. It was just kind of a parallel that happened.

[Janine Turner]

You know, the great thing about being able to write for Northern and for five years was you could trot out all your own interests and things that you just tickled you or delighted you or fascinated you. You can make a story about it.

[Diane Froloff]

But no, we. We didn't know those things.

[Rob Morrow]

But, Janine, I think it's an interesting point about the yin and yang. You say. Because it's so revealing. You have such an understanding of Maggie after this episode, because of knowing this other side. The smoking thing is interesting. I jumped out at me because I was like, what is that? It didn't seem. It didn't seem in keeping with the prissy kind of, you know, girly girl that was. That the debt was the dad in the dad's eye of his daughter. But, like, she was just nervous. Is that it?

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, I think so. She was just.

[Janine Turner]

Well, I could also argue. I could also argue that, like, her mother's generation, everybody smoked and that.

[Diane Froloff]

And that was a sign of sophistication.

[Andy Snyder]

There you go.

[Rob Morrow]

I mean, that's the way it looked.

[Andy Snyder]

The way kind of holding the cigarette.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, right.

[Andy Snyder]

Do you prep the directors? Do you sit down with the directors and say, okay, you know, when she lights this cigarette, it's a sign of society, of the times, of her mother. Do you give them these little kind of insights? You know, at least here and there, I know you can't do it on anything we do.

[Janine Turner]

I don't remember. Remember that specific one, but yeah, we always have tone meetings with the director.

[Diane Froloff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

And they go through each scene and talk about them, and the director will say, here's what I'm trying to do. For instance, the dream sequence, which such. What was the rules about dream sequences? Because they. They were.

[Andy Snyder]

We.

[Rob Morrow]

I. I think it'd be interesting. Janine Maybe if someone cut together all the dream sequences, because they were. And this particular one was. Was very funny and. And poignant. It's where Holling is imagining the nightmare of having a circumcision. And the town is there. Like they are, you know, watching the dead body in town. They're there kind of as spectators.

[Andy Snyder]

Hilarious. They're all there to watch the circumcision. I mean, it's hilarious. And I started to watch the next episode, just kind of went to the next one and I saw that I'm having a dream sequence where I'm all dressed up in black lace and we're playing Clue or something.

[Janine Turner]

I remember that one.

[Andy Snyder]

And I'm like, don't leave Joel. Don't leave Joel. Don't leave Joel. And those were always so fun for me because I could get all dolled up. I loved that because here I played this no makeup, outdoorsy girl, but I still had this kind of Janine in me too. That was a Texas girl. You know, I love to be able to have these flashbacks or these dreams where I could put on a lot of makeup and slick my hair back and those. I was always like, yay, I get to play dress up today.

[Rob Morrow]

Were there rules about those or anything like guiding principles or how often you could do them or. Because they came and went. There were. Period. There were phases where you wouldn't have them.

[Janine Turner]

Well, we would use them to illuminate the inner thoughts and worries and concerns.

[Diane Froloff]

Of the character, but we didn't want to overuse. Yeah, we were cautious about that.

[Andy Snyder]

Well, and sometimes you would just click. Like in one of them. I think it was with season one, though, where suddenly Rob's in the movie theater and suddenly it clicks on the movie screen. Very Woody Allenish. And the young Joel Fleischman's talking to him. That wasn't necessarily a dream. That was kind of just a fantasy.

[Rob Morrow]

Right? Fantasies. But they were all. But they were of a. Of a keep. Of a piece. And I. I love them. I'd love to see them all strung together. Anything else from the show that. That when you were watching it, that stood any kind of behind the scenes memories or flashes of, you know, idea how things came to be?

[Janine Turner]

I know one thing. It was probably the first episode that we wrote that was produced. The first one in our. We wrote like 25, 26 episodes in the course of the series, but that was probably the first one that was the. Because it was the second season. It was the third episode up.

[Rob Morrow]

That's amazing. A quarter. So you guys are responsible for a quarter of the shows. That's extraordinary. And so we have to give you so much credit for, for giving. You know, Janine and I both have this experience. We go around the world to this day, and people tell us how the show changed their life, you know, how they found their mate because of it, or they found their occupation, or they found where they wanted to live, or they found some philosophy or some, you know, literature or poetry or something, you know, And I think it's just a real, a real credit to you guys, you know, for, for. I got a great story on artistry. Yeah, let's hear.

[Janine Turner]

So you remember we did one called First, First Snow, and it was the idea, like, how the town embraces. It's become a holiday, the first snow of winter. And we created this idea that they say, Bon Iver. Bon Iver. And like, happy, happy winter. Happy winter. And then there was a guy who was taking care of his ill mother who had cancer, and they watched Northern Exposure every week. And then when she passed away, he formed a band called Bon Iver, and it's a popular rock band to this day.

[Rob Morrow]

It's huge. Justin Vernon, we're speaking to him. He's coming on the show.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, give him our best.

[Rob Morrow]

He's, I, I'm a huge fan of his music and, and, and, and. Exactly. It's a perfect example of, you know, John Mulaney. I don't know if you guys know that. John Mulaney told me the reason he's in show business is because he, he saw the show when he was 8 and it made him think. It was the first time he ever thought, oh, someone's writing. Someone actually wrote this and that. He started to, to follow, you know, his path towards showbiz because of Northern Exposure. But it's a, it's a real, it's a, it's a gift to, you know, to be able to, to be a part of something that has meant some so much to so many. Don't you?

[Andy Snyder]

On a deep level? Yes, yes. I mean, I think on a real benevolent level, yes. A very, a very soulful level. I, I, I called my, my State Farm. I don't know if I've already talked about this on another show, but I called my State Farm agency the other day, and this young woman answered the phone and she goes, oh, my God, you're doing familial exposure. She goes, that show changed my life. You know, that show made me feel so happy. It gave me such joy. Thank you, thank you, thank you for the Show. I mean, that's what people say. And I. I just think because it touched on hope, you know, it touched on love, it touched on forgiveness and this non judgment, non judgmental universe. Everybody wants to live there, right? It's a place where people go, I want to be there. And Rob and I have talked about the fact that in this age, in day and age, where it's so factious, it's a wonderful place to. I don't know, I was in it, so I know I'm not very objective, but I'm kind of thinking, oh, I got so much to do today. And I'm like, oh, God, I'm so tired. And then I put on the show and I'm suddenly happy, you know, I'm like, oh, my God, this. I'm just. I enjoy watching the show and all the cast and we've all talked about the fact that it's fun for us to watch it now, you know, because. And I've watched it a couple of times throughout the past 30 years in pockets. But, you know, when we watched it originally, we're like, why did they cut away from my close up there? Well, wait, they took out an entire scene and. Oh, I had to loop that line. But I still. I would always love the shows when I watched them. And I'd get in the vans with Rob as we were heading to set, and I'm like, rob, wasn't that show wonderful? And Rob was always a little bit of a cynic. He was like, yeah, it was okay, you know, but Rob would always say, but the endings are always so good. And, you know, it wrapped up well. I mean, everything came together at the end where it was a beautiful place to be.

[Janine Turner]

We often did montages at the end to see how each character had come out of their story and where they were at.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Janine Turner]

A lot of them.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, you're right, now that I think about it. But I never put that all together. You're right.

[Andy Snyder]

There was montages at the end. What are you talking about, David?

[Janine Turner]

You know, you would juxtapose. Maurice is doing this, Ed is doing this, Fleischman is doing this. And you do like three or four or five little moments that just showed where the.

[Rob Morrow]

Each of the main characters, usually with a great song.

[Janine Turner]

Great song. And that was Martin. Bruce Lee, right?

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, well, but montages, usually when there's music and you're. You're kind of flashing back and showing everything. I don't. I don't. There wasn't one in this episode.

[Diane Froloff]

No, no, There was not. We didn't do it.

[Janine Turner]

And they. And they didn't have dialogue. It was just music over a visual of the character.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah, no, we remember those. I don't remember those.

[Janine Turner]

Watching them. You'll see them, huh?

[Rob Morrow]

I remember them. Yeah. It's a good.

[Andy Snyder]

I don't think we've had one yet. Yeah. Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

We have for sure.

[Andy Snyder]

With all the characters.

[Rob Morrow]

Absolutely.

[Janine Turner]

All the characters had a major story and to see where they came out at the end. So if there was a big Maggie story, and we would have a little moment with Maggie doing something at the end, being thoughtful, doing this, doing that. So just to show. Well, I can't remember, but we did it a number of times.

[Rob Morrow]

Absolutely. Well. So I just want to thank you guys. It's a. It was just so great to see you and to hear about your insights and. And your amazing career. I mean, you guys, you've been involved in so many cool shows. I mean, Sopranos, I think, is arguably the top five best. One of the top five best shows in the history of television. And Northern Exposures in. In the. In the Mix and. And it was a. You know, looking back on it, I just. I always remembered how thoughtful and kind you were and open to, you know, talking to us and helping us. And you're. You're. There's a reason that you've had the success you've had. I mean, you're. Aside from your talent, you're both really great producers and people. So it's nice to. To look at you. I haven't seen you in ages.

[Diane Froloff]

No.

[Andy Snyder]

And you. Look at you. You look great. Both of you just look exactly the same. It's so much fun to see you. To see you both. You have to come back because to have written so many episodes in executive.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, 25 episodes. You're gonna see us a lot.

[Rob Morrow]

We're bringing you back. That's a. We'll take that as a commitment.

[Andy Snyder]

All right. Yes.

[Janine Turner]

This is a great pleasure just to.

[Diane Froloff]

We're very grateful for this, and. And, you know, and we have so much gratitude for being able to do that show, which. With you guys. And it was a wonderful time for us.

[Rob Morrow]

Cool.

[Andy Snyder]

It was a wonderful time for us, and I think that's why we're doing this, because we. And why we're. I'm so happy the show is streaming because I believe it's a classic show that's timeless and not. The Rising generations don't have DVD players anymore. So it's great that it's streaming and people have the opportunity to see it and that we can. And that this, this is kind of a nice sort of a kind of package where people can hear a little behind the scenes and gives the show a real legacy, which I believe it deserves. And, and you, you both are a big part of that legacy and made it happen. As I said, if it's not on the, it's not on the stage. If it's not on the page. Right.

[Rob Morrow]

All right. I love that phrase, by the way. Janine.

[Andy Snyder]

Yeah. Oh, thanks.

[Janine Turner]

So do we. We love that.

[Rob Morrow]

All right, so we're out of here, huh?

[Andy Snyder]

Okay, well, thank you. Thank you. Come back.

[Janine Turner]

You're so welcome. Welcome. It was a pleasure.

[Andy Snyder]

So much. And Rob. Okay. We'll be back next next week with season two, episode four, and thanks for joining us. And we'll be back next week. We're signing off o' Connell and Fleischman.

[Rob Morrow]

Actually, it's probably better to be Fleischman, o'. Connell.

[Andy Snyder]

In your dreams, Fleischmann. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.