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Northern Disclosure
S2E8: “Jules et Joel” with Jim Hayman
01:05:15
Director Jim Hayman joins Rob Morrow and Janine Turner this week to discuss the Northern Exposure episode “Jules et Joel”.
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A
Hello Northern Exposure fans. We are back with yet another Northern Disclosure episode. My co host, the beautiful, vivacious Jeanine Turner there in blonde mode this week.
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B
My Rod Stewart look.
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A
Your Rod Stewart look. You look very rock and roll. You look very nice.
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B
I think that a little like flip at the top, you know, you're right.
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A
It's got the kind of spiky thing going on. How you doing, Janine?
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B
I'm great. I'm great. I'm always better after watching one of our episodes and I mean that sincerely. It just sort of brightens my life. And you were terrific in this one, so we'll get to it. But your tour de force, Rob, you were fabulous.
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A
Thanks. It was a lot. It was fun and challenging and this we're talking this week about an episode called Jules et Joel and it was written by Stuart Stevens, who's an interesting guy, is a very well regarded political consultant, has mainly on the Republican side or at least until fairly recently, and has consulted with everyone from, you know, he kind of ran Mitt Romney's campaign back in the day and was consultant to George Bush and real interesting thinker on, on world events. And I, I, it just be interesting.
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B
To get him on the show, wouldn't it?
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A
I know. I realized that these are he only did two episodes and we've done the first one. Brains know how. Brains Know how.
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B
Right, right, right.
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A
And this one. So maybe we'll get him. But he's a, he's a great guy and and I'd love to get him. Andy Bunker, a deep thinker. And a deep thinker for sure. And then this was directed by our pal Jimmy James Heyman, who is just an incredible guy first of all and a great director and started as our dp. He was the first Northern Exposure DIRECTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY and then this episode is his directing debut. And so I just want to remind the audience that if you are listening, you can also Watch us on YouTube on the Northern Disclosure channel. And if you're watching, you can listen in your car and wherever you are, hit subscribe. And we're so happy you're here with us. Janine and I have been having a great time doing this, and getting to reminisce and hang out with someone like Jimmy is just a great gift, you know, Janine, you know what's weird about showbiz? We get to bond with people in a very deep, intimate way because the work insists on that. We're up at 2 in the morning, we're vulnerable, we haven't eaten. You know, we get connected to people for a long period of time, and then you don't see them for, you know, 24, 30 years. And Jimmy, I've seen some, a bunch, but not enough. So I'm glad he's here. I'll say in introducing him that he is, you know, he's a very, very well regarded television director. He went on from Northern Exposure to direct and produce shows like Joan of Arcadia, where he directed, I don't know, nine, ten episodes at least, and was the director producer on the show Ugly Betty. He had me on as director, by the way, on Joan of Arcadia three times. And then he went on to produce and direct NCIS New Orleans, where he also had me on as director and did I don't know how many zillion episodes and directed a zillion. And he also is an amazing photographer, which being that he started as a DP would make sense. He told us that he's got a Rembrandt thing going.
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B
He loves Rembrandt.
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A
I think he definitely great with light and we'll talk about that for sure. And he's got a book coming out pretty soon of his photographs, so people should pick that up. And I guess without further ado.
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B
No, no, no, no, no. Hang on. We have to talk about the show a little bit.
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A
Okay, you're right, you're right.
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B
Rob and Jimmy are great friends and I think he's fabulous, so. But I do want to talk about the show.
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A
This is the synopsis that I have here, which says it's for Jules. On Halloween, Joel hits his head in a fall, causing his twin brother Jules to come to Sicily. Jules quickly takes over Joel's personality and professional life. Chris prepares to meet a criminal from his hometown.
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B
Yeah, I, I thought, I thought the show was once Again, incredibly profound. And I texted Joshua Brand, our creator, about it this morning. I said, you know, look, wow. What. What a. What have been. I didn't say benevolent universe, because I.
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A
Don'T think he likes that. You know what I mean?
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B
I said, what. What a genius you were, and what an amazing show. And I'm so glad I was on this. This journey. And I want to talk about your performance, and we can get into the. To the details, but I. I wrote down. It would be great to have Stuart Stevens on, because it's hard to know as. As actors who really wrote what, because sometimes Stuart, people submit a script and then the executive producers take over and add things. But if you don't mind, I want to read, I thought, because I think we want to just really focus on you in this episode. But, Chris, John Corbett was amazing in this episode.
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A
Absolutely. And it was an interesting departure for his character, which I guess is the point of the episode.
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B
He was very. He's all about Halloween and what. You know, I get the duplicity within all of us, but he was. He. He really played that vulnerability and fear really well. And fear is one of those really difficult things to handle.
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A
That's what's. That's what I mean by. It's like. You don't usually see that in Chris. That's why, you know, interesting.
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B
He played it simply but profoundly. I mean, you could really see what was going on. I just thought it was a terrific performance as well. But here is his monologue at the end, and I'd like to read it. It's not that long, but I love philosophy. I think you do too, Rob. We love. We love words. We love philosophy. And I love Hegel, and I. And this is. This is niche, but nevertheless, the dialectic is referring to Hegel. But here. Here's the summation of the show, which I. When they saying Somewhere over the rainbow and the Kansas thing, I started to get chills. And then when I heard this monologue, I started to tear up because it just quote, there is a dark side to each and every human soul. We want to be Obi Wan Kenobi, and for the most part, we are. But there's a little Darth Vader in all of us. Because the thing is, this ain't no either or proposition, because we are talking about dialectics, the good and the bad merging into us. No, you can run, but you can't hide my experience. Face the darkness, stare it down and own it. It's like brother Nish says, being human is a complicated gig. So Give that old dark night of the soul a hug and howl at the eternal. Yes.
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A
Yeah. It's so great. It's a lovely speech. Yeah, it's really brilliant.
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B
But with the darkness that's in with all of us, and we just give the. Give the dark side of the. You know, howl at the. Yes. And I just thought that was really profound. And it's what you're dealing with in the jail, you know, with Freud, these two sides of yourself. Right.
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A
It's so summed up the entire episode in a perfect way. Yeah, the whole idea. And it's interesting that Joel is going through this now, you know, as I watch the show again, you know, with some relative objectivity, you know, I see the chronology of the characters, evolutions, and it's an interesting one that this is one where Joel starts to get in touch with another side of himself and he starts to see himself. And I think he admits. You hear him admit to himself, aside from. To the fictitious Freud, that he's attracted to Maggie, you know, and he never really owned that before. And so it's a real step. There is a progression of these characters, and it's interesting to note.
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B
Yeah, there is. And the. The way. I also liked at the end when she. Maggie o'. Connell. O' Connell and Fleischmann are having dinner as the real. You were the real Fleischman at that point. And she talks about the night before, which had been your brother, and you didn't know anything about. She figures it out, but she didn't judge you for it.
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A
You're right.
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B
And I think that's when my kind of teariness started inside. It was this knowing that she knew what had happened. She was onto it, but she just accepted it.
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A
I clocked that, too, I thought. And she was also so compassionate in the. I don't know if it's the penultimate scene, but where the wizard of Oz kind of thing at the end, which, by the way, is a number of times we introduced that motif, you know, kind of riffing on wizard of Oz in the show. We do it again. But you're so compassionate to Joel, which is nice. All right. So with no further ado, the great Jimmy Heyman.
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C
Thank you. What an intro. I actually was hoping you weren't going to turn me on. You guys were just going to keep talking about the show. It was so interesting. But I'm happy to be here. Happy. Happy to reconnect with old friends. Lovely.
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A
You look great, man. You look great. And I love that you got the guitars back there. Glad you're playing. So, Jimmy, you started as our dp, and Josh was talking about Josh Brand, the creator, who was one of our first guests. He was our first guest. He talked about how he had seen a movie called Tokyo Pop and that you were the DP on it, and you must have been. I don't know if you were just out of nyu, but shortly thereafter. Right. And you went and did this movie.
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C
You know, I just to give a little backstory, when I got out of nyu, I had gone to school with two students who became friends from Hong Kong, and they made a film with a Chinese actor called Chow Yun Fat, who went on to become quite a big action hero, you know. But it was this tiny romantic comedy, and we shot it in Chinatown in New York, and it won a bunch of awards in Hong Kong. It got me to Hong Kong. It was very successful. And then I became known in that sort of indie film world in New York that was burgeoning at the time as the guy that could shoot in the Far East. I'd never been there. I shot in Chinatown. So that got me. Well, I worked out a Jim Jarvis movie. So then Tom DiCillo and I went to Japan and did a movie together. And then I got Tokyo Pop, so I went to Tokyo and I did that. It starred Carrie Hamilton, who was Carol Burnett's daughter.
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A
Oh, that's right.
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C
And it was about a young rocker who goes to Japan, and she's tall and blonde and, you know, very clearly what they call a gaijin.
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A
And so Josh saw this, and then what, he called you in to meet with him?
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C
You know, I didn't meet with Josh. I. I had a phone conversation with Matt Nodella, actually, and I think he came through Three Arts, a manager there named Irwin Stoff, who at the time was repping my wife. Right. And. And he put me together with Matt Nodella, and I sort of got the job site unseen. I was thinking I might show up in, like, really thick glasses with a white cane.
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A
And, like, before we get to the directing part of it, can you talk a little bit about, you know, you established the look of the show and, you know, and then we had two other DPs that came in, Frank and Gordon. Gordon. And they kind of built on and did their own thing, but it was all building on what you did, and it was very cinematic, very. Not traditional tv. How'd you all get to that place?
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C
Well, I think they were really bold, Josh and John and Matt, and they hired a guy who'd never done television before. So I brought my indie movie look to the show. And because the show was. Was set in such a natural environment, it lent itself to being lit a little bit stronger, a little more contrasty, using light through windows, using natural light, trying not to flatten things out. And I was always a proponent of moving camera and long takes, and that fit well with their storytelling. So, in fact, I noticed the opening shot of you putting your dinner together. It's a long shot of you take the TV dinner out, you burn your hands, get some wine, then there's a knock at the door.
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A
You're right. Janine's always talking about that. Jeanine's always talking about the movement. Right, Janine? And. And also she talks about the light. She loves the lighting, too.
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C
Thank you.
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B
Well, and the. The. The ability to just rest the camera on people's faces, which is missing today. It's this kind of frenetic. No one has more than a second, you know, and so it goes back and forth and back and forth. I mean, Downton Abbey. By the end, this poor actors had, like, four lines. You know, they had to come in, like, four lines and cut. You're into the other scene and the ability to. To let that play and then to go. To see. By the way, because we like to stick with the episode. I know our. Our listeners and viewers like to watch that. That when the. You know, the trick or treater. That was a great scene. And I thought that took its time. Today, that scene would have been cut within the first third. But the fact that it kept going and kept going. And then, Rob, when you got sprayed with the. I mean, it was all simply. It was funny, but the nuances, to be able to take the time, I think. And by the way, I just have to say a little something. I have a question for both of you. Right. Was that in the microwave, that dish. Because these are the things. You can't put foil in the microwave.
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C
Exactly. I saw the same thing. It was like, whoa, there's tin foil there. That's gonna blow up.
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A
That's funny.
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C
Of course, at the time, maybe it.
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B
Was an old oven, though. Maybe it was an old oven. Like a.
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A
No, no, it was a microwave. We just cheated.
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C
I just. I just think all our old. You know, all the old bachelors on the show were like, oh, yeah, Microwave tv?
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B
Well, no, in the biz, we call that creative license.
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C
Yes, well put.
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B
That was funny, Rob, when you had that hot food in your mouth and we're trying, you know, you couldn't breathe and getting. It was all very Jimmy, Jim and Rob, you worked really well in directing that little moment. I mean, you can't, we can't gloss over these moments.
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A
No, definitely not. I just want, I just want to talk a little more about the establishing of the look, because I think it's the one, you know, because we have Jimmy here and just. Was there a lot of, was there any conflict in it with the network or anything? Did they, did they give you a hard time about how it was looking or did they just kind of embraced.
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C
It and you know, we were lucky the way we morphed into a hit show. Our first two seasons were at eight episodes. We were a summer replacement. People didn't pay as much attention. There wasn't as much weight on success on the show, you know, and then you gained enormous success. And so by that point, you know, they couldn't argue the look, I believe, because the audience was loving it, you know, So I, I never, I don't ever remember getting, getting notes, you know, to light the faces more or, you know, get close ups or any of that sort of typical network visual response you would get. I will say that I think our second director was a guy named Peter o'. Fallon.
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A
Yeah, he was great guy, great director, great guy.
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C
Sort of came from the same background as me and he really urged me to, to support my own look, to not flatten it out, to not worry about what the network might say. I remember once we were doing a scene in your office, in the outer office, and we basically lit everything as if it was coming from those large windows. And then I would fill it in a little bit and we lit the wide shot and Peter looked at it and he walked over to the fill light and he put a screen in front of it to make it less right. He said, this is what you want, isn't it? And I went, yeah. He said, well, stand by that. And so I really, once I had support from someone I respected in the, in the, in the world, right then I really embraced it. Yeah.
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A
And it's interesting, you know. You know, I remember very distinctly when directors would show up and I would either disagree or not. Wasn't sure what they were asking me to do. I would always look over and get either a head nod from you or a shake, you know, and it would, and you were always like, my ally. I was like, and if you, if you shook your head no, that'd be like, okay, I know I'm holding my ground here and I'm not doing it or I'm agreeing to what they're Saying and was. So you knew you wanted to be a director at that point.
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B
Well, can. Hang on. Can we still talk about the lighting, Rob? Because I interject. Okay. You know, it's interesting, Jim, because at the time I remember being really frustrated that I didn't have more light on my face.
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C
You know what I mean?
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B
I was like, what's this have. What's this thing? And why are all my, like, rash showing and all that? But, but looking back and comparing it to today when they light and post, which drives me nuts because it's like we're back to that flat white light you're talking about in a lot of, A lot of shows on television where it's just sort of, you know, back almost to the, to the days of, of, of. Of Cary Grant and whatnot, when they had those huge lights that just blew everything out. And so I look at that and I'm like, well, I don't like that. You know, that's just, that's just every, you know, it's that new HD thing where everything in the room is lit and it's all lit really brightly and it has no nuance.
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C
So there's no levels of lit.
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B
Yeah, there's no, like. And, and so I really apprec. You know, what you were doing and that kind of Rembrandt thing that you created and that you weren't afraid to let it be, what naturally it would be. So I just want to say I've grown to really appreciate that, but it's lacking in a lot of, maybe not big time movies, but a lot of these cheaper little movies that they do, they just do this light. I did a movie the week they go, oh, we're not worried about it. We're going to light it in post.
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C
Oh, my God.
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B
Yeah, it's like they just go turn it up and put the lights wherever they want. And it doesn't. So you had a real artistry to what you were doing.
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C
I appreciate that. Thank you so much. But I also feel like maybe I let you down a little bit without. No, without explaining to you that we were taking great care and lighting you, you know, and now you know that we had some maybe little filters going on there and, you know, we always tried to bounce light opals became my.
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B
Best friend, you know. Did you use any, did you use any opals?
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C
Absolutely.
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B
Yeah. You should explain to people what opals are.
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C
Well, there are a series of filters that soften the edges. They soften the light a little bit so they make it look like it's Not a hard light hitting a face, but a softer light that wraps around a little bit. And we always use soft light. We never use. Maybe in big shots, we would use some big, you know, edgy lights. But. But there was a basic classic lighting where you would. You'd light one side of the face. You let the other side of the face go a little dark. Yeah. And then opposing back, you would add a little bit of a rim light to just kick up the hair. And it was a kind of a standard lighting thing. But we always worked out a way to make it seem like it was coming from the lamp or it was coming from the window or so that you never sort of looked at it and said, oh, this feels like a studio picture.
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B
So often today there's light coming in on the actors, but you can't. Then on the actor that happens to be in front of the light, you can really see their face. And then you turn around the actor, that poor actor that has their, you know, back to the light, and you can't see their face at all. I mean, it's just like, whoa, can I see their face? So you did a really good job of having that kind of artistic Rembrandt artistry look, but we still could see our faces. So I applaud you for that.
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C
I had good subjects.
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B
Well, we had fun. It was the first. The first first two seasons. It was quite. You know, we were all. We were all fresh. You know, we were fresh and passionate about what we were doing in our own ways.
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C
I also think that we were a family, as Rob had mentioned earlier in the program that we were up in, you know, Rosslyn Washington. You know, no one bothered us. You know, the closest to a suit coming was Cheryl Block coming up from the company, and she was just part of the family. So we were sort of left to our own devices, which made it work. Bonded. We worked hard, we played hard. And there was a movie years ago based on Madea where the actress gives this speech that we're all. We're a family, and we come together and it's so intense, and then we're dispersed to the winds, you know, and so that adds. If you have that, it takes the work to another level. It did for me.
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B
Rob was talking about that in the opening, how close we all were. And what's amazing is that we've. We've. We've dispersed, but now we're back and we. There are a lot of jobs I've done where I wouldn't have this kind of camaraderie. Or this sense of connection and we just had really something special going. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real and so is the relief from EBGLIS. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
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- [25:21]
A
Jimmy, I want to talk about. So when you you knew you were gonna direct. I guess before early on when you were a dp, you wanted to direct.
- [25:31]
C
No, I'll tell you what happened at the end of the first season because what you were talking about how you and I have this connection and you could rely on me. I think that the DP in an episodic show is that that's part of his job. He's the continuum.
- [25:51]
A
Absolutely.
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C
Directors come and go. You're always hoping they're going to bring something new, something good. But the DP is the one who's there and makes sure that there's A line of continuous.
- [26:07]
A
So when did you ask to direct an episode?
- [26:10]
C
Well, so I didn't. Josh took me out to dinner at the end of the season, and he. In the midst of the dinner, he said, have you ever thought about directing? And I said, well, no, not until right now.
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A
That's amazing.
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C
And he said, well, if we come back, you should direct an episode.
- [26:31]
A
Josh was good that way. He brought a lot of people up. And also, I just want to point out that Jimmy Libboy, who was our operator, became the DP for the prep episode and the shooting of this and did a great job. And I think you were encouraging of that.
- [26:46]
C
Yeah, I like the idea. First of all, Jimmy's a DP in his own right, but also, keep the family together. You know, everyone gets a chance to move up.
- [27:00]
A
So this is a big episode for your first time. I mean, you remember how crazy that was.
- [27:05]
C
Oh, my goodness. I will say this before we start talking about specifics of it. Having watched it now, 20 years after we made it, and having been, at the time very focused on the. The visual sleight of hand of having you play two characters, when I saw it this time, I realized what made this episode so spectacular was not that stuff, but was the performances and the writing.
- [27:43]
A
Right.
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C
Because, Janine, you were so honest and thoughtful and truthful in those scenes with Fleischman from the beginning where you think he's pulling a ruse on you through that ending, as you talked about when you. You. You. You know what's going on, and you let him be that. And then Rob realizing it, and you have that first moment of connection at the dinner table. It's just beautiful.
- [28:13]
A
Yeah.
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C
And Rob, I mean, you're. You just blew my mind because not only did you play two completely different characters, which you completely. Whichever brother you were, were totally committed to that brother. But then you had to take it to another level where the brothers exchanged characters. So there were. Now you're in a multi layered.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah.
- [28:44]
C
Performance. And I see all the layers playing. I see your brother trying to be Joel, and it peeks through at times, and then he covers it and vice versa.
- [28:58]
A
Well, it was a great collaboration. Thank you. You know, and you. You. You. I remember really, you know, you and I kind of in the corner trying to figure it out and trying to find those nuances, because I think that was the hardest part was when the brother played the other brother and was trying to act like he was the other brother. It was very confusing and. But the. The. I remember when we first saw the script, the the question became, okay, how are we going to do this? In a way not like the classic Bewitched, locked off camera, you know, which to the audience, if you understand the. When, you know, in. In the past when they used to do a character playing to playing against himself, playing opposite himself, you'd have to lock the camera in place. You'd shoot one side of them in one costume and then you'd have them come and change costumes, come in the. And then, then they'd roll back the film and you'd film it again and you'd.
- [29:51]
C
You.
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A
And you'd get the other side. And as long as they didn't cross that middle line, they'd be okay. But. But Jimmy was determined and I think everyone supported you in that. In doing something different. Now at that point, Michael Fox had done Back to the Future where he was, you know, playing against himself and other characters were playing games. So there was this new technology. Maybe you could speak of how you got to that.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah, so I lobbied really hard. I felt like in the first scene, when Jules shows up, if we could have a shot where they crossed each other in the frame just as if it was two different characters, two different actors, we would sell that it was real. And there was a. A new system called motion control Camera. So what would happen is you would. Using a computer, you would.
- [30:53]
A
It was Vista Glide or something like that, right? Yeah, that was the company name. Yeah.
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C
But it sounded like really high end stuff. Right. The camera would do a shot, then while the actor changed, the camera would roll back to the number one position and then through the computer, repeat that shot. Exactly. Moving the camera, tilting, panning, whatever. Right. So we did the first half, which I believe was Joel coming in, and we ran the shot and we had.
- [31:29]
A
A double dressed as me, acting. Acting with me.
- [31:33]
C
Right, right.
- [31:34]
B
Well, why don't you talk about that for a second? The, the. Your stand in was doing your double work right from behind and all that.
- [31:40]
A
I'm not sure if it was my stand in. I think it was. They brought in someone who really matched me physically. Peter never didn't really.
- [31:49]
C
I think we brought. We. I thought we cast an actor to come.
- [31:52]
B
Okay. Because that's a really important element. Like when you're on your face and you're doing a hug. It was a. Another actor.
- [31:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [31:59]
C
Well, we'll get to that too, because he was wearing an earwig. So. But anyway, so just to finish this side of it, it. We do the first part, Rob goes off to change into Jules. The camera is now going back to number one. And it's nothing more than just a tripod with a camera on it on a little flat dolly on rails. And I'm watching it move back to one and it goes past the number one and falls.
- [32:27]
A
Oh, no.
- [32:30]
C
And I was like, that's not going to work. Sorry. So then we had to bring you back and do it again.
- [32:38]
A
Right.
- [32:39]
C
And then we went back. So now it's like, okay, well, I got them to spend all this money.
- [32:45]
A
It was a lot of money. I also think it added two days onto the schedule.
- [32:48]
C
Yeah. Which is typical for the way I work anyway, but. And then you came back as. As Jules, and you had an earwig. And so you were listening to the.
- [33:02]
A
Jokes just for the audience. Just for the audience. An earwig is like a little hearing aid, basically, that hides the ear.
- [33:09]
C
Like, but you don't see it at all.
- [33:11]
A
They don't do it. A lot of people are just listening to this just so you know. You know what I mean? So Jimmy was pointing to the earphone. So I'm wearing this little ear thing where I'm hearing the playback of myself when we had done it as the other character.
- [33:28]
C
But unfortunately, you're also hearing the playback of the stand in.
- [33:33]
A
Right.
- [33:34]
C
Right. So we start the first take at. I'll never forget this. And we're like halfway through the take and you. You just. All of a sudden, you just go, I feel like I'm on acid. Because you're trying to talk over the stand in and listen to yourself. It was.
- [33:57]
A
And the trickiest part is not only do you have to do that, you have to remember where. Now there's nobody opposite me. So it's just an empty space. And I have to imagine where when I was playing Joel, I walked, I sat, I stood. You know that that's where you feel like your mind's splitting in half.
- [34:15]
C
Yeah, But. But honestly, you know, when we got it, it was flawless. And I think the fact that we spent the time to set that up visually, then from then on, we really did lock frames and over the shoulders for the majority of the. Really, I think for the rest of the episode. And we had a great stand in for you. So you bought the over the shoulders without any question.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah.
- [34:42]
C
And the differentiation between Jules and Joel was so distinct and so specific. You just bought it.
- [34:55]
B
Yeah. Rob, let's talk about that for a minute. Rob. Cause I think there are a couple of funny lines they love to hear about the script and whatnot. But there was that moment when you are now. Now as flash Your, Your flight, your Jewel, your jewels, portraying Joel. And you walk through the town and you're saying hi to everybody, and this man walks up and goes, how are my test results? And you said, oh, you made an A. You know what I mean?
- [35:16]
C
Yeah.
- [35:17]
B
And then. And then you go in, then you're doing your first exam and you've got the, the stick in your own mouth and you want to put in the other guy's mouth, and you don't know how to do the, The. The. The blood pressure. All those elements were really funny. But. But I. I'm curious, Rob, about your choices as an actor for the New Yorker Jewels. I mean, for the kind of slick back. I mean, that you changed your tone of voice even for that. So you want to. I think people would be interested to know about that a little bit.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah, for sure. You know, it's funny watching it, being the critical person I am of myself. It seemed. It seemed a little too much with the distance. You know, if I were to do it again, I would have dialed it back a little. You know, it just seemed a little. It works for the piece because it's in Joel's head, so I could justify it that way. But yeah, Yeah. I mean, I don't remember who I based it on. You know, you see a little dairo in there, like, and. And I think, Jimmy, there's a. There's a moment where I'm talking to the mirror and I'm saying, like. And we're kind of riffing on the you talking to me thing.
- [36:18]
C
Talking to me. But I think we ad lib that whole.
- [36:21]
A
I think we kind of went off like.
- [36:23]
B
And that's Dustin Hoffman. Are you talking to me walking?
- [36:27]
A
No, no, no. You're talking to me as Taxi Driver. I'm walking here as Dustin. I'm walking here.
- [36:36]
C
Which. Which you do in another episode.
- [36:38]
A
Right, Right.
- [36:39]
B
Yes. Which we've already done, I think. And we'd already done. Right. I thought you had kind of a Hoffman thing going.
- [36:46]
A
Yeah, I think it's more. It looks like the expressions and I don't remember.
- [36:49]
C
I'm sure if I thought about it.
- [36:50]
A
I wouldn't have done De Niro. But, like, looking at it, I can see my expressions, you know, that kind of like where I'm tilting my head, you know, that kind of De Niro stuff. But yeah, I mean, the goal was, per your question, Janine, was to. To. And I think, Jimmy, you know, and I talked a lot about this, was really distinguishing the difference. So I. I did lower my register a little. Bit, you know, got into my groin, if you will. You know, he's a guy that comes from his groin. You know, he's.
- [37:20]
B
Sexual predator was higher to me. Your voice was higher as Jules, kind of.
- [37:25]
A
Yeah. No, it's. No, I don't think so. At least that's not when I looked at it.
- [37:30]
B
Okay.
- [37:30]
C
Also, I will say that we. We give the audience that, too, because when you first, you know, change over from Joel to Jules and we have the scene with the mirror, we see you finding. You take the time to find that voice.
- [37:49]
A
Right, right.
- [37:50]
C
You know, that's where you talking to me happens. And so, you know, we just were very good at bringing the audience along in the process, so they became part of it. You know, at least that's how I felt when I watched it the other day.
- [38:07]
A
It's an interesting. It's the story itself. First of all, you know, Jeanine, what's interesting is that it's one of the rare shows that there's only two stories. Right. And I'm not even sure exactly, but as having watched it this morning as well, the Joel is the A story, but the B story is Chris Stevens, and I think Chris is in reality and Joel's is in his head.
- [38:32]
C
Yes, but remember when we first shot it, Freud didn't exist. That. That those scenes were not shot in the initial episode.
- [38:44]
A
What do you mean? Oh, I didn't know that.
- [38:47]
C
Yeah. So what happened was we shot it as.
- [38:50]
A
Wait, let's just. Let's just explain in case you don't know that. So. So I get arrested as. As playing Jewish. Playing my brother, and I end up in jail. And then all of a sudden, in crazy Northern Exposure fantasy, like Sigmund Freud shows up and starts doing sessions with me.
- [39:09]
C
Right. So we shot it as this last episode of season one. No, I'm sorry, season two. And they cut it and they felt like it. It didn't. It wasn't working for them. So they decided to add your arrest and the sessions with Freud because then it made clear that Jules and Joel are just two sides of Joel's personality.
- [39:41]
A
Right, right, right.
- [39:43]
B
Which goes back to the Obi Wan Kenobi and the Darth Vader.
- [39:46]
C
That's exactly right. Exact. That's how it all tails together. That's why John Corbin's character and Frank Anderson's character, the bomber, are both the size of the same person.
- [40:00]
A
Right, right.
- [40:02]
C
The little guy just wants to be noticed. He sees himself as insignificant. He sees John Corbett as being the tall, handsome guy who has everything. And yet John Corbett sees himself as insignificant as well. And so that everybody has these dual personalities.
- [40:20]
B
And that's what I love about Northern Exposure, by the way. Not to interrupt, but is the duality of our characters.
- [40:26]
C
Well, I just think that's what. That's what says that the writing was so elevated. And I think. Honestly, I think networks didn't think they. There was an audience that had the brain capacity to embrace stories like this.
- [40:41]
A
Yeah.
- [40:41]
C
And they found an audience of. Of smart, intellectual, you know, not necessarily upper middle class, but people who liked more interesting tales.
- [40:55]
A
We got high brows and low brows. That's the interesting thing. There was a lot of people that the references went right over their head, you know, that they. And they didn't care. You know, they didn't feel like they were being, you know, that it was pedantic or something, but they. But they still liked the humanity of it. And then if you were, you know, intellectually inclined, you could find all this great stuff. I love the notion that, you know, that part of the kind of idea is getting a break from yourself. You know, that's what. That's what Joel needs, is getting a break from himself, you know, only to. Only to discover himself.
- [41:34]
C
Yeah. And I think it was an opening for Joel in his acceptance of his new life, because by the end of it, it. He. He comes to terms with his attraction to Maggie. And he. In a way that sort of broadens to. He comes to terms that he's living with a group of people that are basically good people.
- [42:01]
B
He comes to terms with his dark side, too, don't you think?
- [42:04]
C
Yeah, because he wants to play.
- [42:05]
A
That's the whole time. That's the whole thing. And also, like, you know, what I love is that he, you know, he says, as Jules to you, Maggie, he says, you know, I'm sensing some, like, subtextual kind of thing going on here, you know, and, you know, he's admitting that there's something going on. Like he's using this disguise, you know, like a mask in the classic sense, to kind of reveal, you know, that they are attracted to each other.
- [42:39]
B
It was through your alter ego. Right. When you. Only when you're portraying Jules, could you show your attraction to Maggie.
- [42:47]
C
That's where you had the confidence to be honest with your feelings.
- [42:52]
A
Jules is all ID and Joel is all superego, is what they say.
- [42:56]
C
That's exactly right. And I particularly love when you finally, you come to that understanding, you say something like, what I really want to do is liquor all over like a postage stamp. Did I tell you I Collected. Collected stamps as a child. I mean, it's like, so hilarious. But then you look over and Freud's sleeping.
- [43:18]
A
Right, right.
- [43:21]
C
I just thought it was. And also, just the way you gave that line as Jules spoke, you brought this sort of Bowery Boys, hunts hall.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:33]
C
30S Damon Runyon vibe to it.
- [43:37]
A
You know, that's a good. That. That's. That. That's probably the reference, Janine, that. That I probably was either or consciously drawing on. Because I love those movies as a kid. The Bowery Boys movies.
- [43:47]
C
Yeah.
- [43:47]
A
And there is. I can see that now that you say it.
- [43:50]
C
And it was such a quintessential New York vibe. Those guys. You know, there was an actor named Hunt, Saul, who was inevitably throwing out malaprops the whole time in this sort of Bronx ease accent, you know, And I think that he brought Jules into that.
- [44:10]
B
And then Rob to. To play Jules, you first. You play Jules as Jules and Joel as Joel. And then you played Jules as Joel. Joel was Jules. And so talk about that a little bit. I mean, having to step into a character that's like Jim was talking about earlier, you know, that. That you weren't just playing Jules anymore. You were playing Fleischman pretending to be Jules.
- [44:32]
A
That was the tricky part. You know, that was the hardest part of it, was how much. How much Joel should peek through, how much I should be. How good an actor is Joel, you know, how much can he make, you know, so. So. And I think we. We did a lot of takes and. And we would kind of feather in, you know, moments of. Of letting the audience see that it was Joel, you know, and. And it was just. It was a process of gradations, I think, just trying to. To each take, trying to figure out what we should add or subtract. And. And Jimmy was a great. You know, it's amazing that was your first time directing because you.
- [45:13]
B
That was a big show. For our first time directing show, that.
- [45:15]
A
Was a big show. Yeah. But, you know.
- [45:18]
C
You know, what was great about it? Because, of course, it's easy when you come from being a DP to. And you. Now you're directing to sort of. Sort of hide behind the visual needs of the show, because that's your comfort zone. But because the acting and the characters were so complicated, it forced me to not look at the lighting anymore, but to really work with you to find those gradations. And I think that you're right. We did a bunch of takes because I think we decided we didn't. We didn't want Joel to be too Good. An actor.
- [45:57]
A
Right.
- [45:58]
C
Because it's Joel, you know, and the audience needs to actually literally be reminded periodically that this is Jules playing Joel, you know, or Joel playing Jules.
- [46:12]
B
There needs to be a little slip every now and then, right?
- [46:15]
C
Yes. So the ability to let the other characters slide through in moments was very delicate and very important to the story. I think it worked really well.
- [46:30]
A
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C
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A
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C
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A
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C
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B
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- [47:34]
A
But there's certain giveaways that I'm fascinated with. Like, again, I said, you know, I said a few minutes ago that, that the John Corbett, the Chris storyline seemed like it was in reality versus my storyline was in, In. In my head or was the whole thing in my head? Because when John, when Chris comes out after he gets the threatening call from Frank, played by Raymond o'. Connor.
- [47:59]
B
Terrific, by the way.
- [48:01]
A
He was excellent. I remember when he.
- [48:02]
C
Ray Anderson, I believe.
- [48:04]
A
I thought. No, I thought Raymond, Ray, Ray. Raymond o'. Connor.
- [48:09]
C
Oh, sorry.
- [48:10]
A
But he. I remember when he showed up, we were all like, oh, this guy's. This guy's great. But. But when, when, When Chris walks out into the office to kind of get some solace from Maurice. Maurice is so dismissive, you know? You know, and it just seems just.
- [48:26]
B
Go, you know, just like.
- [48:29]
A
Right. Which seems like not what Maurice would do. So it made me think, okay, wait, is he. Are they all in my head? You know, but why would I be imagining.
- [48:36]
C
Oh, I didn't imagine that. I thought Maurice was laser focused on Officer Symansky.
- [48:43]
B
Yes, that's what I was thinking.
- [48:46]
C
He was moving from his groin at any time to, like, deal with Chris's, you know, neurosis. That's what I was gonna say. That's what I was gonna say. It was so great.
- [48:58]
B
And, you know, with Chris, that. The way John Corbett could throw out this. This poetic, philosophical genius. Brilliant. You know, we all did. We all had these great monologues. Cause the writing was so amazing. But when. When he's up again against the. The. The Raymond. Raymond o' Connor character, I forget his. His name was a Frank or whatever.
- [49:21]
A
Frank. Frank.
- [49:22]
B
And he's saying, I'm short. I'm short. Do you see how tall you are? I'm short. And then. And then Chris in the morning just rattles off all these things. Well, how about Napoleon? How about so and so? He was only 5:2, and he conquered all of Europe. You know that.
- [49:36]
C
And you see Frank go, okay, talk.
- [49:42]
B
About the little bombs. The little bomb cables that were coming out of his vest. Talk to us. You must have had something to do with that. Talk about that.
- [49:49]
C
Well, I think we knew we had to. We had to show that obviously he was strapped to a bomb, but it was probably a little chilly out, and. And we didn't want to do the, you know, the whole, you know, vest of dynamite, so. And also, it sort of made him a little bit. A little trailer being all bundled up with just a couple of sticks of dynamite sticking out. And then he was holding.
- [50:16]
B
He was holding his.
- [50:17]
C
Like he's got the thing. And then, you know, we staged it. So he keeps walking around Chris, you know, as he's ranting about his insignificance and his size. I just thought it was delightful. And. And John was so sweet.
- [50:34]
A
Yeah.
- [50:35]
C
This guy, you know, he was so gentle. And it was a side of Chris that I'm not sure we had seen before.
- [50:42]
A
No, that's what I think. The point of the episode is that both. Both of these characters reveal stuff. You know, how about Marilyn when she. The way she clocks Jules? I mean, she's just so on to him.
- [50:54]
C
Well, she. He says, bring the next patient. And she just looks. She's got that lollipop in her back, right? She just goes into the Hong Kong, goes number six. She says, josh Brand could not get enough of her. He just thought she was. You know, he had that vision. He saw what an integral part she would be to that show. With. With very small, you know, tidbits of humor, subtle humor was, you know.
- [51:28]
B
Well, and I loved the moment, too, when Darren Burrows, who played Ed Chigliak, comes up and he knows instantly, Rob. Right. That. What is it? You were Jules trying to play. You were Joel trying to play. You were Jules. I don't know what moment, but he picked it up. He knew. Do you remember that moment?
- [51:44]
C
Yeah. He says it's an Indian thing. Yeah.
- [51:47]
A
We don't get lost in visages.
- [51:52]
B
He knew that who you were portraying to be wasn't the real you because he could read your real soul. And then Marilyn could do that as well.
- [51:59]
C
Right. And then Elaine is the same way, and Joel's jewel says so. And, you know, and she went. She does not. Yeah, but that. You know, that just that part of a storyline that has that sort of esoteric sensibility of. Of nativism. Nativism, you know, and Native Americans and that there are different groups of people that see things differently and we should embrace this, you know.
- [52:29]
A
Yeah. That comes out in the series a lot, you know.
- [52:32]
C
Yeah.
- [52:32]
A
I mean, it was a really. They definitely honored the Native culture, which I love, and it's great to remember that as I watch it and get reminded of it.
- [52:42]
C
Right.
- [52:42]
B
Rob, did you have fun playing the two different characters? I mean, really kind of being. I will just say that I played the. This kind of hardcore natural Maggie all the time. And when I had got to. When I had the opportunity to have a dream or a flashback or play a, you know, an Eskimo and with long hair in an igloo or to be sexy, I really loved to have that opportunity to look different. And it was so interesting as an actress, you know, it's not this just CSI thing every day, you know. Did you really enjoy Rob being able to kind of turn on the charm and be this kind of cool? It's so opposite of what you were playing daily. That must have been fun.
- [53:23]
A
Yeah, it was absolutely. You know. You know how it is. It's like we. No matter how interesting the character you're playing on a TV show, monotony sets in relatively quickly because, you know, you're doing the same thing over and over. So when we would be given these chances to do something different, it was always fun. But, you know, the challenge is we're doing it on such a short schedule because for the audience, you know, we get these scripts, if we were lucky, you know, they were pretty good on Northern Exposure in terms of getting to them, getting us the scripts in advance. But it usually was four or five days maybe, where the actors would get the script and start to be able to look at what they were being asked to Do. So I probably had four or five days to think out with Jimmy to figure out how I'm going to play another character and play my regular character while I'm shooting the other. The previous episode. So it's really tacky, but I don't think. I don't remember ever thinking, I don't want to. I wish I didn't have to do this. I mean, we'd rise to the occasion, but it was a good thing we were young.
- [54:27]
B
Yeah, well, even now, it's challenging. It's so much fun.
- [54:31]
C
Yeah, so much fun when. When you're doing an episodic show. Because I've run a bunch of shows now that it. There's the redundancy, that sense of, oh, yeah, okay, we're gonna do this now. And so when you given the opportunity to stretch out in another direction, as daunting as it might seem, everyone gets juiced. You know, one of the great things I found in Northern Exposure, I tried to carry it on in other shows once I started producing was everybody read the scripts, everybody was invested in the storyline. The dolly grip would be, you know, literally would say, well, maybe we should move on this line. What about, Wouldn't that be nicer? You know, I mean, everybody was doing their best work. Everyone's job was the most important. And I think I tried to carry that on through my career. I think it's very important.
- [55:31]
B
Like, how did you do that? Did you say to the team, be sure to read the script?
- [55:36]
C
In so many words, I said, you know, what I used to say was, look, I want, if I think as a director, as a producer, obviously, everything, I'm kidding myself. So I want everybody to be involved and bring ideas, bring thoughts. And of course, you know, I'm an eagle maniac, so I'm the one who's going to make the decision. But I want that involvement. And so I think once you give license to a casting crew to do that, it just elevates the work because.
- [56:10]
B
It empowers everybody and everybody feels important. And I think that starts to happen to actors later in a series run where actors have grown and they want to direct or they want to change their characters a little bit. And then sometimes you get stifled with like, no, you got to remain exactly the same. But wait, I've grown. But it's hard, but it's really empowering that you gave them that sense of collaboration where they felt that, oh, I'm doing more than just pushing the doll. You know, I can maybe have an impact of where pushing the dolly I mean, that's a beautiful thing. I love collaboration. It's one of my favorite words.
- [56:43]
C
Yeah. And I also think that we were lucky because first, as I said earlier, we were off by ourselves. So people, we just did what we did.
- [56:52]
B
You didn't have a bunch of executives breathing down your.
- [56:55]
C
Right. But we also, the writers were very open to questions and adjustments. I've been on other shows where. No, no, no. There's a comma there. You have to pause for a sec. You know, where they are ironclad, word specific, which is stifling.
- [57:17]
B
And then I've worked on shows where it's all improvisational. It's all improvisational. Well, they'll let you just be improv. Just go ahead.
- [57:24]
C
Yeah, I don't. That. That makes me nervous a little bit.
- [57:26]
B
I know. Well, like I was on Friday Night lights. Right. Season three. And then I worked with Robert Altman in. In Dr. T and the Women. And they were both completely improvisational. And my first thought was, well, I feel sorry for the screenwriter, you know, I mean, the scriptwriter. But the second. The second thing is like, how do they edit this? There were no matching there. No, they didn't care. They had three cameras. How they edited something like that, I have no idea.
- [57:50]
A
As Jack Nicholson said, matchings for sissies.
- [57:54]
C
Yeah. You know, my first job at a film school was with Robert Alt.
- [58:02]
B
Oh, you're kidding. What was it?
- [58:04]
C
He directed two one act plays called Two by South. There was a playwright out of New York, Frank south, and he. One of them had Alfre Woodard in a solo performance. And the other, I don't remember, the male actor. And it was for a fledgling cable network called ABC Arts, which didn't last. But I remember that at the end we had a little party when we did the last shot. And I was. My job basically was to take a big black and put it in front of a light and make lightning through a window. That was my job. You know, he was directing and we found each other standing next to each other and I was. He did all these amazing shots through mirrors and moving camera.
- [58:55]
A
Talk about long takes.
- [58:57]
C
Yeah, right. And I was complimenting him on it and he said, yeah, I don't know, Jimmy, do you think that last shot in the mirror really is going to work?
- [59:06]
A
Well, you know, it's funny. I was at. I think about this every single time I start a project. I was at a dinner in a restaurant, in a private room, maybe 12, 15 showbiz people. I'm next to Robert Altman. Dessert comes, he pulls Out a joint in the restaurant. Restaurant lights it. We start smoking. So he and I are passing the joint back and forth, and I got really relaxed. So at some point, I. We were talking about everything, and at some point I said, why do you make movies? You know, the way a stoner would say, why do you? And he said. He looked at me and he said, for the sole experience of making them, period. And it's something I think of every time because I. He's made masterpieces and he's made some not great movies, but. But every time I run into an actor or someone who worked with them, they say it was the greatest experience of their career. And so it was because he set that tone as you're talking about, where everyone was there to have an experience. It wasn't just because you were a dolly grip that you couldn't sit in, or you were. The black guy was creating lightning. You couldn't talk to the director about his shot. And I think that's a great thing to keep in mind.
- [60:22]
C
Know. I think that that is a good thing to. To bring to mind every time you start a project, because it is that. This brings us right back to the beginning of this conversation about how we created this family and everyone felt part of the process. And what we remember now is we look at the work and go, wow, we did some pretty damn good work there. But in the middle of it, it. We were just enjoying the process, you know, and giving each other the room to create, you know, well, we have.
- [61:00]
A
To wind it up. But I just want to say, first of all, it's been so much fun. I feel like we could keep going, but I have this real distinct memory of being on the street on the last shot of the episode, and you and I kind of falling into each other in a hug because we were so exhausted and we knew we got through it. We didn't know what it was going to be, but. But I just really remember that.
- [61:24]
C
And I. I remember that as well. Yeah, there is that. Amazing. Like, finally, all. All the tension in your body kind of sags a little bit. Like, we did this.
- [61:38]
A
I love completing things. I love the. I love when I can. When I get in the car and it's over and I'm like, I'm done. I can. Because. Right, Janine, this pressure, even if you look calm, cool and collected, there's an anxiety, a performance anxiety, even if you're a director or dp, not just an actor, but that it's in you. And until you're released from that, there's a pressure.
- [62:04]
B
Well, there's kind of a heightened adrenaline rush, you know, where, you know what you have to get through and the long hours and long days and the last lack of sleep and then having to. I think that one of the things that's so amazing about what we do is it's. It's, especially from an actor standpoint, is, okay, 1, 2, 3, action. And you just, boom, have to have it. And that's one of the things I remember learning with both of you on the set is like, how do I go sit in my chair in the corner and get into where I need to be? Cause I was trying to bring that kind of emotional levels and whatnot to my performances. But there's such a heightened. Heightened anxiety. And then there's a letdown when it's finally finished. And I always find I don't know what to do with myself. Myself when it's over. A or B, I get a cold. You know what I mean?
- [62:47]
C
Always get sick. Always get sick. But I think that was really accurate, Rob, that. That directors, DPs, everybody has performance anxiety. Whether you're in front of the camera. I mean, that's just part of our, you know, sort of collective neuroses, I.
- [63:04]
B
Think, because everybody says action together, right? If you're pushing the dolly or holding the light or whatever, it's exists. It's this sense of performance on action. And I remember one of the craziest things that I remember to. To this day is when I wanted to try to get to that emotional level, right? And I might not be there yet. And I'd say, can I just have a few seconds? And Jim Charleston, usually right, would say, yeah, okay, everyone just give Janine a few seconds. And then the pressure was horrible, right? Worse, everybody got really, really, really quiet. And they're all, like, waiting for me to, like, get to this emotional state of my life.
- [63:35]
C
If he had just quietly, you know, said, sure, take a minute, you know, now.
- [63:39]
A
Well, Jimmy, thank you so much for. For, for coming on. I hope we can get you on again. It's just.
- [63:45]
C
I love to. This is so much fun. So much. And I just want you to know that I got a call from a old, old friend in Boston who said that she's loving your show, loving the podcast. So you're doing good work.
- [64:01]
B
Well, you brought it. You brought it to light.
- [64:03]
C
You brought it to light. Brought it to light. That's a good phrase.
- [64:07]
A
You're right.
- [64:07]
C
I like it.
- [64:08]
A
Maybe that should be the title you brought.
- [64:10]
C
Could be Bringing it to life. I'm gonna take it.
- [64:14]
B
Glad I could collaborate on that process.
- [64:17]
C
I'm gonna give you. I'll give you your due.
- [64:20]
A
No way.
- [64:21]
C
It's okay.
- [64:22]
B
So next week we're gonna have another great episode. So for tonight, I say good. See you later everybody. From o' Connell and Fleischman.
- [64:32]
A
Yeah, actually, I think it should be Fleischman o'.
- [64:34]
B
Connell. In your dreams, Fleischman. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen.
- [64:46]
A
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C
From cryptids and alien ABD to listener submitted hauntings, we bring you creepy stories every single week.
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We try to keep each episode pretty.
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C
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- [65:52]
A
Podcast as bizarre as you are.