S3E10: “Dateline: Cicely” with Jeff Melvoin

Summary

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Northern Disclosure: S3E10 “Dateline: Cicely” with Jeff Melvoin

Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Evergreen Podcasts
Co-Hosts: Rob Morrow, Janine Turner
Guest: Jeff Melvoin (Writer/Producer)
Episode Focus: Deep dive into Season 3, Episode 11 of Northern Exposure (“Dateline Sicily”) with writer/producer Jeff Melvoin.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Northern Disclosure is a nostalgic and insightful exploration of “Dateline Sicily”—a beloved episode from Northern Exposure’s third season. Rob Morrow and Janine Turner, the show’s original stars, are joined by celebrated writer-producer Jeff Melvoin to unpack the episode’s themes, unique writing process, and the collaborative magic that made the show iconic. Together, they reminisce about craft, on-set memories, and the delicate tone that defined Northern Exposure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jeff Melvoin’s Journey to Northern Exposure

[07:04 - 09:56]

• Jeff describes his career trajectory from Remington Steele and Hill Street Blues, then several years in development.
• His wife urged him to watch Northern Exposure; he was skeptical at first but quickly became a fan:

  “I watched it and I said, okay, you’re right. It is as good as you say it is, and it will never last because it’s too good.” (08:23)

• He landed the job after showing passion—passing up a more obvious fit for “I’ll Fly Away”—and his first original script was “Dateline Sicily”.

2. The Unique Northern Exposure Writers’ Room

[11:39 - 18:01]

• Compared to other shows, the Northern Exposure process was less about a conventional writers’ room and more about direct, one-on-one collaboration with showrunner Josh Brand.
• Josh’s management was described as a “private hospital”—writers needed to deliver at a high level with little hand-holding.

  “A lot of people went through the doors of Northern Exposure in the first couple years...he didn’t have a lot of patience with people who didn’t get on his wavelength. For whatever reason, I got on his wavelength.” (12:13-13:17)

• Jeff credits much of the show's brilliance to Josh Brand’s editorial vision.

  “Josh was really the show. It was coming through his sensibilities and he was the one...making the decisions.” (13:45)

3. Constructing “Dateline Sicily” – Themes and Storylines

[14:40 - 22:32]

• The central theme sparked by Josh Brand was: “What if trees are sentient—what would that mean for Cicely?”

  “Josh coming in with an idea that trees are sentient...What if, you know, plants can really feel and communicate?” (15:06)

• Maurice’s newspaper storyline and Adam’s paranoia intertwine with the trees’ storyline, although seemingly disparate, all connect under themes of ecology, media, paranoia, and truth.
• Janine points out the storyline’s contemporary relevance:

  “If you take that to today’s modern technology...people are listening. But it was about the trees...at the end...there had been a chemical spill and the trees were screaming.” (17:11)

4. The Writing Process: From Idea to Teleplay

[18:01 - 21:11; 24:50 - 40:33]

• Jeff likens writing to “mud wrestling”—messy, iterative, and non-prescriptive.

  “I’m very wary of books that are prescriptive...to me, it’s more like mud wrestling...you go back and revise. It’s very...iterative.” (18:19)

• Often, storylines would diverge from initial concepts; structure emerged from passionate, sometimes chaotic, creative sessions.
• Josh Brand avoided rigid outlines:

  “We didn’t work with outlines in a formal sense...I would give [Josh] a transparent outline...but Josh forgot about the outline almost as soon as you turned it in.” (40:33)

• This approach created room for deep, authentic storytelling and allowed for last-minute inspiration or necessary script overhauls.

5. Crafting the Show’s Distinctive Tone

[21:29 - 24:16; 30:12 - 32:06; 35:21 - 39:40]

• Melvoin compares Northern Exposure’s delicate tone to a soufflé—just a few feet off the ground and easily ruined if mishandled.

  “Sicily existed just a couple feet off the ground, and it was like a soufflé...if you had the wrong conditions, it would collapse.” (35:24)

• New writers often misinterpreted the show’s magical realism, going too far into sci-fi or fantasy and missing the tender, grounded magic that made the series special.

6. Performance and Collaboration

[24:50 - 32:31]

• Janine and Rob praise John Corbett, John Cullum, and Barry Corbin for their nuanced performances.
• The exceptional cast and crew, especially director Michael Fresco, amplified the scripts’ strengths.
• Jeff notes how often the finished episode exceeded his imagination, emphasizing the rare collaborative synergy:

  “This is by far the show that most reached your own imagination of what a show, of what a script was.” (24:50)

• The show cultivated an “egoless” environment; everyone focused on making the best episode, not on personal credit.

7. The Magic of Production

[32:31 - 44:58]

• Jeff recalls never seeing the editing room—final cut was exclusively Josh’s domain.
• There were few last-minute rewrites (“rainbow scripts”) because advanced prep was prioritized.
• Melvoin lauds the art department, especially Woody Crocker, and the importance of giving departments time through ample pre-production:

  “There’s a direct correlation between the amount of time you have to write and rewrite and the art department to prepare and the quality of the show.” (44:37)

8. The Episode’s Cinematic Qualities

[28:38 - 32:06]

• Rob and Janine discuss Michael Fresco’s subtle but impactful directing choices, especially the seamless “oner” shot and atmospheric lighting.
• Janine fondly recounts on-set memories, even giving a humorous shoutout to finally getting the wardrobe she wanted for Maggie.

9. The Lasting Impact of Northern Exposure

[34:32 - 35:21; 50:58 - 52:31]

• Jeff still considers Northern Exposure the literary and professional high watermark of his career:

  “There just can’t be a better show to work [on].” (35:06)

• Janine echoes this sentiment from an actor’s perspective:

  “This is by far the best written show I have ever had the pleasure of acting...” (38:56)

• The show’s legacy endures—fans continue to watch for comfort, recovery, and rediscovery.

  “I just think that what we’re talking about and why people watch it in times of need...it was just such a humane show.” (51:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the writing process:

  "To me, it's more like mud wrestling...You get an idea, it throws you to the ground, you throw it to the ground, you roll around a bit."
  — Jeff Melvoin [18:19]

• On the show's tone:

  "Sicily existed just a couple feet off the ground, and it was like a soufflé...if you had the wrong conditions, it would collapse."
  — Jeff Melvoin [35:24]

• On cast and crew synergy:

  "We are playing with the New York Philharmonic...Our job is to give you the music that will make it come out."
  — Jeff Melvoin [22:32]

• Memorable dialogue from the episode:

  “I could rip your heart out and show it to you while it’s still beating.”
  — Adam, as remembered by Rob [47:49]

• On writer competition and collaboration:

  "It was a competition, for sure, but it was a competition to write your best, recognizing that your best is going to be a little different than what they do..."
  — Jeff Melvoin [38:12]

• On the show's lasting effect:

  “I felt at the time, this is it...It's not that the rest of life has been a disappointment professionally. It's just you recognize almost like an athlete these conditions are never going to be about.”
  — Jeff Melvoin [52:31]

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Key Timestamps

• [07:04] Jeff discusses joining Northern Exposure
• [09:56] First writing experience—“The Body in Question”
• [11:39] The true creative leader: Josh vs. John
• [14:40] Genesis of “Dateline Sicily”—sentient trees idea
• [17:02] Maggie and the trees—tying A and B plots together
• [22:32] Writing for a “world-class orchestra”
• [24:50] Seeing actors bring scripts to life
• [28:38] Praise for Michael Fresco and on-set atmosphere
• [30:12] Intentional cinematic ending: letting scenes linger
• [35:24] The “soufflé” metaphor for the show's tone
• [38:12] The friendly competition among writers
• [44:36] Ample preparation time led to quality
• [47:49] Adam’s memorable threat to Maurice
• [52:31] Jeff reflects on the show as a career high

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is warm, reflective, and full of mutual respect and gentle humor—just like the original series. The hosts and guest exude a sense of camaraderie and nostalgia, often finishing each other's thoughts or breaking into laughter. Technical insights are delivered in an accessible, storytelling way, suitable for both casual fans and TV insiders.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This podcast episode is an in-depth, behind-the-scenes masterclass in how Northern Exposure’s literary magic was born—centered on the classic episode “Dateline Sicily.” Through heartfelt reminiscences and candid shop talk, Rob, Janine, and Jeff illuminate the soul of the series: the careful balance of whimsy, humanity, and subversive depth that has kept Cicely, Alaska, alive in viewers’ hearts for over thirty years.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Janine Turner]

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[Rob]

Hello friends.

[Janine Turner]

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[Rob]

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[Janine Turner]

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[Rob]

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[Janine Turner]

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[Rob]

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[Jeff Melvoin]

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[Rob]

Hello there. Welcome back to Northern Disclosure, where my lovely co host Janine Turner and I talk about episodes of Northern Exposure. In this particular one, we're going to be talking about Dateline Sicily, and we have one of our writer producers, Jeff Melvoin, joining us in a few minutes. And he's just a great guy and a super smart, talented writer and producer and he has an incredible career and it's going to be fun to catch up with him. I just always love talking to him. How you doing there, Janine?

[Janine Turner]

I'm, I'm well, Good to see you, Rob. And, and I am. He's one of my favorite writers who. Just phenomenal writer, producer. So it's, it's exciting to have him on the show today. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And this episode was very, as usual, but I mean, in particular very intricately brilliant. So we will get down to the nuts and bolts of that.

[Rob]

Yeah, I mean, he's, he's written a lot of Northern Exposure.

[Janine Turner]

He, he wrote the episode, the two episodes, I believe, where you and I, finally, Flashman and o', Connell, finally have a role in the hay. And then we forget, or Maggie forgets that she had the role in the hay. Do you remember that?

[Rob]

I do remember it.

[Janine Turner]

Excellent, excellent episodes. I think he wrote both of those, but he can tell us.

[Rob]

I'll give you a little synopsis of the episode. This one's called Dateline Sicily. It was season three, episode 11. In it, Maurice attempts to enliven his newspaper by hiring a new and mysterious reporter. Maggie tries to tell Joel about Tom talking trees, but he's not listening. And Chris becomes a co owner of the Brick when Holling receives an unexpected but long overdue tax bill. What'd you think of this episode?

[Janine Turner]

Oh, as usual, they're all like little short stories, aren't they? I love to read short stories. I read Leo Tolstoys and Chekhov short stories. And every one of these scripts is just like a little short story. And. And again, I think one of the things of note, you know, if it's not on the page, it's not on the stage. So. Jeff's writing was phenomenal, intricately brilliant, as I said earlier, if you listen to all the details and the things that are said. But the acting, again, was very most superb. I thought John Corbett did an excellent job. It was a kind of gave him a little more to do. And I thought he carried that depression he was feeling of a soggy Alaska time period and not feeling happy about his life and walking through that resolve and that arc. I thought John Corbett did a wonderful job. You always do a won John Colum always does. Barry Corbin, I thought, had some really top notch moments in this show as well.

[Rob]

He's so funny.

[Janine Turner]

I'm an absolute tree hugger. I love trees, love nature. I believe they talk. I talk to my plants. I talk to the trees. So Maggie and I had a lot in common and I really liked that last scene between us. Rob. I thought that was a good scene. Very, very. In a nutshell, that's what Maggie and Connell were always about. It's just like talking on two different wavelengths, but trying.

[Rob]

But it's. Yeah, it's sweet. There's a tenderness, you know, Joel cares about her feelings, you know, in this episode. And he shuts up, you know, instead of being pushing it, you know, to the end, you know, she just says, can you just listen? Can you just, you know, stop? And he sits and you can tell, he's like, okay, let me see what I can learn here. It's a sweet ending. It's an interesting ending for. I wonder if that was how it was written. But yeah, and I agree with you, this is a. You know, the nice thing about Jeff's writing is they are like little short stories. It's contained. It's a very, it's self contained. It works unto itself as well as kind of carrying the characters forward. And I agree with you about. Corbett had a kind of melancholy that we hadn't seen, which was interesting. And I look forward to talking to Jeff. Should we bring him in? Sure. So Jeff Melvoin wrote, he was a producer, executive producer on the show. Wrote 18 episodes. 18, that's like a fifth almost of our, of our full output. He, he also wrote and, and produced army wives. He produced 96 episodes, wrote four designated survivor where he hired me. And I had one of my favorite little arcs in a lot in a while. He wrote two of those, produced 33, Killing Eve Al, early edition with my friend Fisher Stevens, Hill Street Blues. Even so, he's got an incredible career, and he's always interesting to talk to. And. And I remember when we were making the show, he was just such a great. Whenever we got to be with him, he just had such a calming, you know, insightful presence. So there you go, Jeff. We teed you up.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Now I can only disappoint. Thank you.

[Janine Turner]

You know, I remember, Jeff, you know, your wonderful, wonderful writing and the way that we would, you know, be tired when we were acting or we would mess up the lines or whatever, and all the dailies that y' all would see that sometimes weren't shut off in time. You know what I mean? But I'm curious what it was like to watch all the dailies of all. No one really knows what that even is anymore. It was the work captured on film that was transferred to video. The thing you all watched to see our work. And because we all were in LA and we were in Seattle. I mean, it's really interesting to talk about what it was like to write your work, your script, and to watch all of us as actors bring that to life. And then to watch the dailies, to see us kind of sometimes get it immediately and sometimes struggle. Was that interesting to watch the dailies of your own work on the page? And this was your. Was this your first show?

[Jeff Melvoin]

No, I mean, this was my, like, fourth show. My wife tells me not to start with my first show because it dates me, but Remington Steele was my first show in the early 80s with Pierce Brosnan, Stephanie Zimbalist. And then I did Hill Street Blues. Then I did four years of development and coming out of development, then it was Northern Exposure. So it was my third show. And what I remember about TV back then, and it's very different today, is there really was a kind of a hierarchical progress that you made. It was a real business. And if you got a good start, you could hopefully depend upon moving up the ladder and hopefully moving up the ladder of quality as well. And starting at Remington Steele at MTM was great. Hill Street Blues was, you know, the apex of one hour drama when it came out. I learned a lot in my four years of development. I wrote, I think 11 pilots and three got produced and none made the fall schedule, which was probably a good thing for me in my marriage, but. And then I was going to try movies. I was very frustrated with the development process, and. And my wife said, you've got to watch this new show that just came out. It's called Northern Exposure, and I think you'd be great for it. And she told me about it, and I said, it can't be as good as you say it is. And she said, you got to watch. And I resisted watching it, and. Because, remember, you guys started with eight episodes, and then there was another eight. And so she insisted that I watch it. And I watched it, and I said, okay, you're right. It is as good as you say it is, and it will never last because it's too good. And then they ordered another eight. And at that point, my agent said that there was an opening, and I said, absolutely, I would be interested in doing that show. And I interviewed with Josh, and the last thing I had written was a pilot for Harry Belafonte. It was a serious work where he wanted to play a copy of In New York. And I'd written this, I thought, very intricate story about a guy trying to find his roots again who had kind of gotten distanced from what he had been. And I won't go into details about that, but it was a very socially pertinent piece. And Josh had read that and said, based on that, I think you'd be better for this other show we're doing, I'll Fly Away, which is about civil rights in the South. David Chase was doing that show. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. You don't get it. I said, I know Fleshman, you know, he said, I write that show, and I. I made my case, and. And they hired me, and. And the first thing they gave me was this script called the. The Body in. Well, I. I retitled it the Body in Question. It was about this Napoleonic soldier being found in a block of ice.

[Rob]

Wait, so that's the episode where we break the fourth wall? Yeah.

[Jeff Melvoin]

No, no.

[Rob]

Oh, that was Robin and Mitch. That was Robin and Mitch. I forgot.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. Just. Just like the Trebuchet show, you know, the Flinging, the Piano. Robin and Mitch and then Soulmates, which was Andy and Diane, as it turned out. My first six. Well, each season I wrote six episodes, but the first season, I wrote four rewrites and two originals, of which Dateline Sicily was the first. And. But there had been a lot, I think, as John and Josh. And by the way, John and Josh interviewed me. And then John went on to work on Going to Extremes, the medical show that was set in the Caribbean. And So all my work was with Josh for all of that. But they gave me the script by Henry Brummell, who was a terrific writer. I don't think his sensibility fit the show. In any case, I read the script, Josh and I talked about it. And I just had a feeling for the series in general and this particular episode in particular said, I know what to do with it. And I gave it a page one. And I mean, with full respect for. For Henry. I have a little anecdote about that too, but because we were friends afterwards.

[Rob]

Let me ask you something though, about. I always felt it's funny because based on what you just said about John going off to. To do Going to Extremes, which lasted, I think, a season, similar idea of a kind of Fish out of Water, Doctors in the Caribbean. But I always. My. My sense is that this. If you had to say Northern Exposure was more Josh than John, do you think that's the case?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Well, it was for me because I never really got to know John. I mean, continuing my story, he plays into this because I did a complete rewrite on the script and was called back in to meet with Josh and John. And Josh was delighted. And you know, Josh was a very tough taskmaster.

[Rob]

Very hard. Yeah, tough.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. I mean, he's the most brilliant guy I've ever worked with or for. And a brilliant editor, just generally brilliant. But he was also, in terms of his management style, he was clinical. I mean, what I've said is that there's two types of shows, at least back in the broadcast heyday. There's teaching hospitals and there's private hospitals. And when you start, you want to be in a teaching hospital where you have a benevolent senior resident who will take you on rounds and let you see all the patients and treat a few, but will intervene before you kill anybody. That was what Remington Steele was for me. It was a lighter show, self contained episodes. And I had a great boss in Michael Gleason. And I learned a lot. And then Hill street was also. Hill street was a step up in terms of seriousness. And then working on my pilots, I learned a lot as well. And by the time I got to Northern Exposure, I felt, okay, I'm ready for a private hospital. And in the private hospital, all they want to know is, can you do the neurosurgery? And if you can't, not only do you lose the patient, you lose your job. And a lot of people went through the doors of Northern Exposure in the first couple years. A lot of talented writers and whatever, for whatever reason. Didn't connect with Josh. He didn't have think a lot of patience with people who didn't get on his. Get on his wavelength. And for whatever reason. Whatever reason, I got on his wavelength and he was tickled with the draft that I turned in, which was.

[Janine Turner]

Which show. A Body in question.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. The Napoleonic soldier in a block of ice.

[Rob]

And.

[Jeff Melvoin]

John was in the room when we were talking about it, and John Falzi wanted to criticize it a little bit. He had some comments. Josh just cut him off and said, no, this works. This is it.

[Rob]

That's what I mean. That confirms my hypothesis that Josh was really the show. John was kind of. I mean, not to take anything away from John and his talent, but it just always seemed to me that Josh was the heart. It was coming through his sensibilities and that he was the one that was making the decisions. Yeah.

[Jeff Melvoin]

And in this case, again, with full respect to John, because the show is brilliant. But I never talked to John again.

[Rob]

Oh, my God.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. That was the last time I even saw.

[Rob]

Because he was. He was off. Yeah, he was doing other things. But let's. Let's get into this show a little bit. Like what? So Dayline, Sicily, how does that come about? Are you given a premise and then you build an outline from that? Or. Or did you just come out of the whole cloth and said, oh, let's do. Let's. Let's imagine if Sicily had a newspaper. You know, how did that happen?

[Jeff Melvoin]

It's a good question. And frankly, the mists of time have kind of clouded my specific memory of it. But the way things work in a more traditional teaching hospital type of broadcast show, the writers room would meet as a whole. The writer would suggest things. The showrunner or designated number two would run the room. And the showrunner, if the showrunner weren't in the room all the time, they would check in regularly and. And make course corrections in the story. And that's not the way things really worked on Northern. It was more one on one with Josh and then some discussion. But out of the run of the show, Andy and Diane and Mitch and Robin and I wrote the great majority of episodes. And I think it took a while to find his starting five, so to speak, in basketball terms. And so that's why there was a lot of rewrites initially, because they were trying different writers out. And then kind of my audition piece, even though I was already hired, was the Andy Burmel script and the body in question. But what would happen in this. What I remember, my specific memory of this is Josh coming in with an idea that trees are sentient. And Josh is. He's got an academics. And so I don't think I necessarily knew what sentient even meant at the time. So I said, what are you talking about? He said, you know, the trees. What if, you know, plants can really feel and communicate? And I don't know where Adam came into the picture, but that was. The nub of the episode was sentient trees.

[Rob]

That's funny. I would have thought it was the opposite, because I was going to ask you. Thematically, the two. There's two storylines and maybe a mini storyline with Janine, but with Maggie, but. But there's really two story. An A and a B. And the A is clearly the Sicily, the dateline Sicily, the. The newspaper storyline. But you're saying that it started with the tree storyline and that became the B storyline. But they're. They're not really. I mean, did. Did you watch it recently?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah, I did.

[Rob]

And they're not really related, are they?

[Janine Turner]

They're related in relationship to what was in the newspaper because they had talked about the trees in the newspaper.

[Rob]

Oh, I see. You're right. You're right. That's a good point.

[Janine Turner]

No, you didn't believe that Adam was sincere with what he was doing. And I think that's an interesting point of this episode is Adam was actually right this time. I mean, we always talk about Adam's a liar or this or that, but he was right about everything. And if you take that to today's modern technology, where it's like, how did you know I was 54th in my class? How did they know how I breathe when I'm having sex? I mean, that type of stuff, right, that people are listening. But it was a. It was about the trees, and that was in the newspaper. And then that Maggie went to check all that out, and then at the end, they were right about the trees, that there had been a chemical spill and the trees were screaming. So I think in a way, that was the A storyline. It would just had to be funneled into different ways to bring that about. Right. Jeff, would you say that's kind of was sort of the premise that just went in two different directions?

[Jeff Melvoin]

It's, you know, to me. And I do a fair amount of teaching. I've currently been. This is my fifth year of teaching at the Peter Stark program, the producing program at usc. And my course is on script development. And then I. I've done a lot of teaching over the years, and. And when I talk to people about how do you learn to write? Of course, the biggest lesson is just. Just try it. But I'm very wary of books that are prescriptive about this is the way you do things, because they almost make it seem like a menu. You lay these things out, and then you find your midpoint. You do this. But you guys have both been involved in writing. To me, it's more like mud wrestling. I mean, it's like you get an idea, it throws you to the ground. You throw it to the ground, you roll around a bit. It's very. You go back and revise. You say, well, then this is going to happen. Which means I got to go back and do this. But then if I do that, then I have to adjust this. And I think in this case, I get a concept. I get a conception of more like something very, very much like the construction of an atom, that there's this nucleus and everything kind of grows around that. Because you wouldn't have thought, as you say, Rob, that an idea about talking trees would have been the starting point for this particular story. But especially when you approach writing episodic television as a profession, your job is to create problems and solve them and to ask questions. So you say, and I'm not sure this is exactly the way things got constructed, but it would be plausible to say, okay, talking trees. How do we get into a story about talking trees? And I think we had Adam involved in the mix, too. And then you start saying, well, how do you make that into a story? And you say, well, you've got Adam in the mix, so Adam is back in town. And then somehow the idea of Maurice in the newspaper. I had been a journalist for seven years before I started working in this business. The last five, I was a correspondent for Time magazine. So I had some insight into the news process. I will say, jumping out for a second, looking from the outside in on this episode and being 30 years or so since, I've really thought about it. As Janine said, there's a lot of interlaced thematic material and story material in it having to do with ecology, paranoia, actually having a basis in truth, about government, spying, with the place of media and how we exploit media and this idea of ownership and how ownership can destroy what you've loved if you hold something too close and possess it. And they all seem to kiss, as we say, thematically, without being on the nose. And to me, that's part of the genius of Josh and John in creating the show, because they created this laboratory. I almost think about that city and the old Superman that lived under glass. I think I forget exactly what it was, but it's like they created this.

[Rob]

This.

[Jeff Melvoin]

This really magical place with this amazing mix of characters. And within that, so many things were possible.

[Rob]

You know, when you talk about it, it makes sense to me. Like, I hear what you're saying, and it's. And I think what I liked about the episode was because in a way, they seem disparate. But now when you talk about it, I get it. But what's interesting is that it's not on the nose, you know, that they do. They. They do work. Like, the episode completely feels like a contained thing. That works to me, but it doesn't feel like everything's connected in an obvious way. Also, it's interesting, you know, Adam. Adam. You know, they. The. You know, what Janine was talking about a minute ago was like, this idea that he's right in this episode, but that's the beauty of it. Like the. He is a pathological liar, but then he's not. You know, it's like. And. And the way you guys balance that in the writing, because you're like, you know, you don't know whether anything comes out of his mouth is true or not. And then sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. I think even some of the things he said in this episode early on you just would do. One would be dubious of, you know, but it was very, very well, very well structured.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Ultimately, you know, working with you guys, I mean, the cast was so outstanding. And so it's like you have these instruments, and if Rob and I are both guitar players, and we know that when you pick up an instrument that's really terrific, it's just a pleasure to be able to play it. And that's the way I think we all who wrote the show felt about you guys, and the directors, too, and the art department and everybody is that we are playing with the New York Philharmonic or the Berlin Philharmonic. We have the best instruments that anybody could play, and our job is to give you the music that will make it come out. And the connections that get made when you're working on that wavelength are some things that I don't think the writer can even necessarily say that you were in full control of. I mean, I see things now when I look at that episode that I think, boy, that's really amazing. The stories within stories and almost a Russian dial quality, because another theme. Another theme really is storytelling in itself. You know, Adam is a fabulous. I mean, he seems to make things up, but we're Spellbound for it. And Maurice says at one point, boy, he does spin a good yarn, doesn't he? And then he's selling papers. He's selling papers by trying to tell a good story. And then when I just look at the episode as a whole, I said, I'm just interested in knowing what's going on. This is a really good story that's just entertaining in itself. So it's kind of meta that the episode itself speaks for the importance of good storytelling. And again, I only. I see myself as part of a greater whole, of which you guys were a huge part.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, that's so beautiful.

[Rob]

Yeah. So lovely. Thank you.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, that's so beautiful. And, Jeff, that takes me back to my original question, which. Which was about watching dailies. What was it like when we're separated by, you know, a few couple, you know, by Oregon. You know what I mean? California to Seattle to Washington state? And when you write it and then you see the actors act it and you're watching the dailies, what was that like? It must have been, really. You just kind of already talked about a little bit. But is there any. I mean, were you. What was it like to see all of it come to life?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Well, I will say that this is the. By far the. The. The show that most reached your own imagination of what a show, of what a script was. When you saw the dailies, the art department was so much on the top of their game, the actors and the directors, that it was very unusual to see dailies that didn't reflect what you had going on in your mind when we were writing something. And if anything, the beauty of working with a good cast and good directors is that they bring even more to it. It was very rare that you'd see a line reading or an interpretation that somehow jarred you from what you had in mind. And by the way, when that happens, at least half the time, it's better than what you had in mind. But it's just. When you're. It's just kind of jolting sometimes. But. But I will say that in terms of the actual dimension of working on that show, because having now run a number of shows myself, what happens in the editing room is the final rewrite of an episode. And there wasn't a lot of final rewriting that was going on in a significant way, because the shows were. They really were written to within an inch of their lives. I mean, for Josh, by the time when I talk about being in a private hospital on a lot of shows, when you turn in a script to the showrunner. They're going to put their marks all over it, rewrite things. Even if they don't change scenes, they're rewriting dialogue. All Josh really wanted to do was say, should this be a semicolon or an ellipsis?

[Rob]

No way. Oh, my God.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, he. The things that he would change or he could insert. And you guys can see this in some of the shows, especially between your kind of dialogue, is that there'd be a dialogue between the two of you, and he might insert, like Maggie saying, huh. You know, just trying to get the rhythm. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't. Everything he was doing had to do with just the most sophisticated, polished notes, the little grace notes on it. Yeah. And so. And if you. If a script needed more work than that, you didn't last very long.

[Rob]

Yeah, well, there were a lot of writers we've noticed, Janine and I. They'll pop up on their. On the credit and we'll be like, I don't know who that was. Like, it'll be a name. We've never, you know, because they were there for one episode. But I want to just say while we're here, that Michael Fresco directed this episode, and he did such a lovely job. He. He directed ultimately 12 episodes of the show. And like you, he was a regular, you know, person that we, you know, want. He was part of the. The fabric of the show and. And we loved him. He was going to be on this episode, but we had some technical difficulties, but we'll get him on on another episode. But there was. There were many. Like, Janine, that's that scene where you and I are walking down the street. It starts past my office and we go into the. It ends with us in a brick. It's a oner on a long lens and a dolly. And it was so lovely, you know, just the way he designed that shot and brought it. By the end of it, we. We finished the last lines. It's over my shoulder onto you. And we go into the brick and we continue the conversation. But he had a lot of nice touches, you know, and I don't know why. Maybe. Did you notice that the lighting seemed a little different? I love the lighting in the brick. Like when. When Shelley and Holling come down late at night into the brick, there was something different about it to me. And also, he had a lot of. You know, there were a lot of struggles that I realized watching this episode, because there was rain. There was clearly real rain. And then there was clearly rain that they had to manufacture to match it because I just know how things go. And like it was, you know, it must have been the rainy season, so he must have been carrying those rain trees and, and to match it. But there was a lot of wet in this show. Did you notice that, Jeanine?

[Janine Turner]

I was really thinking about how wet it was and remembering Rob. I could like smell it as I was watching it. I remember the smell of Sicily, of, you know, Rosalind Washington and the dampness in the trees and the fires burning and just how wet and cold we all were all the time. And I thought about that too. Robin. I do want to give a shout out to Michael Fresco because I worked with him again on Strong Medicine. He's a fabulous director. He added so much movement to this show without letting the camera steal, become the star. And I don't like it when the camera becomes the star. But he was able to still make it work in an organic way. And lastly, I will say to everyone who's been listening to every single episode, I'm so glad that Maggie is finally out of those horrible pants that made me look 10 pounds heavier than I was. And Rob, I am finally in my dark navy blue side zip pants. I'm really excited about that.

[Rob]

Well, you looked good.

[Janine Turner]

I'm in sorrel boots instead of those weird like boots that came up like this because we've been talking about that. Jeff. I was wearing these God awful jeans that made me look a thousand million pounds heavier. And I remember I walked into the directors and I said, they're like, you need to lose weight. I'm like, I don't really, like, look at me. I don't know that I need to lose weight. I just think I need a different like costume on. But anyway, it was, it was fun to see how you're right, Rob. That the cinema, the cinematic quality. Right, Jeff? That really made a difference in the bringing, like Rob often says, a completely different character.

[Jeff Melvoin]

I went back and looked at the script and by the way, in terms of the weather conditions, because when you were shooting that, the original line from, from Chris, the opening scene was, it's a chilly. I think he says It's a chilly 28 degrees or something. And it was changed on the day to soggy because it was, it was so raining. But you know, talking about Michael Fresco and his touch and he was terrific in all departments. He was great working with actors and he's great with camera. And I always believe that form files function. I mean, he didn't intrude with the camera. He chose his shots to tell the story in the most graceful, natural way. And the show itself, I think, moved really well because of that. And we were talking beforehand, Janine, about the last shot, which is very cinematic and also very unusual for tv. It's a. It's a kind of medium two shot of the two of you sitting in the woods. And it. And it hangs on it for 10, 15 seconds before it fades. And you had asked, was that written? And it was, but it wasn't written. Quite the last thing was. Joel says, what do I do? Maggie says, just listen. And Joel says, and by the way, in terms of the punctuation, you say, what do I do? Maggie says, just listen. Joel. That, that. That. Okay. And those. Those ellipses are really important in terms of the rhythm. They both stand still, listening. A beat. They whisper, Maggie, Anything? Joel? No, Maggie. That, that. That. We'll give it a few minutes, then try someplace else. Joel says, right. And the last line in the script. And as they sit listening to the trees fade out. But it was Michael's touch, you know, that gave it that. That extra bit of poetry and just let the sign. And it's also to Josh's credit that they didn't cut out. As soon as the point was made. They let the scene continue.

[Rob]

It really is sweet.

[Janine Turner]

We might want to give a nod to sound because the way they brought in the wind and the sound had a big post. Both. Both. The sound was always exceptional. Glenn, Glen Metcalf was our sound on stage with us, our sound mixer on stage. But then in post, you. They had to bring in to the wind and the trees. It sounded. You know, we had an exceptional team all the way around.

[Jeff Melvoin]

I never set foot in the editing bay as a producer on the show that was exclusively Josh's province. And it. And by the way, on most shows, the showrunner has the final cut. Certain showrunners are more open to letting writers come in and at least see the cuts as they're being made. But that wasn't Josh's style. So it was like our job was to write the best scripts we possibly could. And in his way of running things, and he may have changed over the years, there was just never an invitation to participate in the post process. So, Jeanine, in terms of how carefully we were looking at dailies, it was for our own edification and satisfaction. But the extra role that dailies play when you're actually responsible for the final cut is you're looking for performance and thinking about how the thing's Going to fit together. And we didn't have any of us those responsibilities while Josh was in charge, which at the time, it didn't bother me. It still doesn't bother me. It's not quite the way I do it. I like to have the writers feel more involved, but to be honest, they don't have much more to say than we did. By DGA rules, the director has four days with the film when they're done, and then turns over to the. To the. To the showrunner.

[Janine Turner]

That's the thing everybody has to give. Do you know what I mean? It's like. And that's the. If you are a power control freak, you're in trouble in this business, right? Because, I mean, writers have to give to the executive producer and the directors do their cut, but they have to give to the, you know, the executive producer. Actors can do their part, but then once they do their part, we can say we liked take one better than take three, but in the long run, it's not going to matter. So everybody has their. Even their power at that moment, but it's fleeting because it's really going to be how the whole everybody works as a team to put it together.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Right. And what's important in an environment like that is that it's about making the best possible show, not about ego, not who's going to be able to lift their leg on something. And that's the way it definitely felt with this show. I mean, I think we all felt, the writers, that we were just trying to live up to the ideal of what Northern Exposure was. And I knew even as I was going through it, this is going to be the high watermark of my career from a literary point of view, which is a strange feeling to have when you're in your 40s and saying there just can't be a better show to work.

[Rob]

Wait, so do you do maintain that now still after all these years?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah, I'd say that the. Yeah, I think from a. From a literary high mark, it's just like we were given the privilege of writing that show. And I've loved the other shows I've worked on and always gave 100% to them, and I'm very proud of them.

[Rob]

Are you the one who coined the phrase about the souffle?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah, yeah, I used it. I don't know if I'm the first one.

[Rob]

Tell it to Janine or tell the audience. It's a great.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Well, the key to writing the show was that Sicily existed just a couple feet off the ground, and it was Like a souffle. It was very delicate and if you had the wrong conditions, it would collapse. And it's interesting, outside writers, when they would write spec scripts, there were often almost sci fi elements or very mystical elements to it. And I'm saying, boy, is that what they think the show is? I mean, we did have all sorts of spiritual qualities to the show, but again, it was that mix. You can't get too high off the ground or it's not our show anymore and it can't be completely grounded. One of the interesting things about the show's appeal was that this was such a great community of characters. But if you examine what the community was, there were no children, there was one married couple. It was a very interesting assortment of individuals, but you bought it. The glue was the same glue that kept the show together. Even an episode like Dateline Sicily, it is that same souffle quality. There was just something. Such a delicate balance of qualities. And again, I credit Josh and John for creating it because for me, I feel very fortunate to have gotten on the wavelength of it. I've written a number of pilots. They didn't make the schedule, as I said, but I've been blessed by being able to work on shows where it really resonates with my personal tuning fork. Remington Steele was a really good example, but there's never been a better example than the Northern Exposure. I just. I know these characters. I know this world. And even though it was hard to write these things, there was another aspect to writing it that was fascinating, which is that Andy and Diane and. And Mitch and Robin are brilliant writers. But we all wrote different scripts. And I don't know if you've noticed as you look, whether you can say, well, that definitely sounds like a Mitch and Robbins script and that's like an.

[Rob]

Andy and no, this one stands out very distinctly. Like, there's definitely your voice. You know, there's certain things, you know, and you. I think you write Joel really well. You know, there was certain little, little nuances that I appreciated watching it. And I remember when you know lines like, I'm not a child of nature, I'm a child of asphalt and. And toxic waste or something like that. Yeah, you can. I think your voice is clear. And I also think that's the beautiful thing about the show is that there were there. It had these dynamics to the writing. It wasn't all one voice, except it was cohesive because of Josh.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah, that's the point I was going to make is like Andy and Diane's latest script would come out. And I would just marvel at it. I would say, how did you possibly write this script? And the same thing with Robin and Mitch. It's like, I could never have written that script in a thousand years. And then my script would come out, and they would be equally complementary. So we were. It was a. It was a competition, for sure, but it was a competition to write your best, recognizing that your best is going to be a little different than what they do. And so I've never been in an environment like that either, where it truly was a friendly competition to write the most outstanding work you could do. And the products were, as you say, Rob, distinctly different from one another, but they were all consistent with what the show was.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, it's interesting what you. But if you think about it, Jeff, Andy and Diane wrote as a couple. Mitch and Robin wrote as a couple. You were writing by yourself. So that's kind of an interesting note as well. And I want to circle back to that, but I will also answer a couple of questions back. This is by far the best written show I have ever had the pleasure of acting, to be involved as an actress. I mean, it was just. I've never been in a show since that was as beautifully, mystically, magically, beautifully written. I mean, I'm a writer. Rob's a writer, you're a writer, and I'm a poet, too. And it was fascinating to hear you talk about the ellipses, you know, the dot, dot, dot, or, you know, whatever it might be. It's a rhythm of writing and the kind of. And I love hearing how you talked about how to write. I mean, I know there's a lot of structure. You do this in act one and this in act two. But I just write stream of consciousness, you know, and then try to go back and fit it into whatever it needs to be and let it. Let it absolutely flow. But it's. It's fabulous to hear all of these things. And I want to know where Adam went. Like, before it wraps. Where did Adam go? I mean, it's like, do you think, like, where'd he go? Cause that was so quick. And then he just disappeared. And also, I had a question for you. There was a scene when I went into Rob, and I was talking to him, I guess, about the trees or. Oh, no, I wanted the stethoscope. I wanted the stethoscope. And then all of a sudden. All of a sudden, it cuts out very abruptly. Do you remember? Was that one of those scenes that were cut, like, because it just did not feel Finished. Did you catch that in the rewrite? I mean, when you watched it, rewatched.

[Jeff Melvoin]

It, I saw that the cut was rather abrupt. I mean, your character says, you're gonna laugh at me, so they're not gonna laugh. And. And then the next thing he says has to do with what's going on in this town and what Maurice has unleashed. I've got the script up on my other screen, and I'll take a look at seeing what was going on there. But in terms of what we were talking about before, about almost the egoless nature of putting together something that's such a construct of so many people. I have a story about Josh that is unique in terms of the showrunners I've worked with, which is that a. We didn't work with outlines in a formal sense, whereas every show I've worked on before and since has had outlines. And I'm a big believer in outlines. But we didn't submit outlines to the studio and network. Josh and John had a reputation for being rare, ornery. In fact, when I was brought in to talk about getting on staff, there were some discussions the show was going to be canceled because they were so recalcitrant and difficult to work with in regards to the network and studio because they had such a strong idea what they wanted to do. So consistent with that, I would have discussions with Josh, and I would make extensive notes, stream of consciousness dialogue, and then I would cut it down to two or three pages of what I call the transparent outline and give it to Josh just to get him to look at the structure and get his nominal approval. But most showrunners, when you turn in an outline, they expect the show to follow that outline. And if they don't, depending on the showrunner, they could be very upset. Like, what happened to that line? What happened to that scene? You're not supposed to deviate from the outline without at least getting in touch with them. Josh forgot about the outline almost as soon as you turned it in. And the story that illustrates that is one of the early scripts I was given to work on was a rewrite. And I took the original outline, took the script. I said, okay, the script really doesn't do justice to the outline. I rewrote, just like I did with the body in question. I rewrote the script, and I turned it into Josh. I walked back to my office, and by the time I got back to the office, I had a message. Josh wants to see you. I go to his office, and he's turning the pages, and without looking up, he says, does this get any better? And now I knew because I was already in with him as a writer that I didn't take it personally. I mean, he was talking about the story. I said, no, not really. He said he just took the script and threw it away and says, we have to start over. I went back and looked at the outline. Josh wrote the outline. So I'm thinking, who, who is, who does that? And another aspect about our show that I think needs to be mentioned is we had the blessing of time because most shows you couldn't afford to throw away a script maybe two weeks before its prep date. But we were ahead of that because it was ordered as an eight episode series, then ordered as another eight episodes. And when it was fully picked up, it was winter, and they knew they didn't have to go back into production until the summer. And rather than just sitting on their laurels, Josh and John knew it was time to pump those scripts. And so by the time I joined the show on episode 17, there were seven or eight scripts already in work, many of them done. Most shows, you're lucky to have three or four scripts in advance. And that lead time gets eaten up as the season progresses.

[Rob]

It's true. We were never really. We were never, we were never fight. A lot of shows, you're, you're getting rewrites, you know, as you're shooting, you know, but, but Northern was pretty good about giving us the full script by the time we hit the floor.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Oh, yeah, and the art department will be upset if they didn't get a script two weeks before its prep date. And I don't remember a lot of rainbow scripts on, on our show for, for. Just to explain that every time you have a revision, it comes out in different colors, page and so on many, you know, green, pink, yellow, blue, red, and by the time, pink and yellow. And by the time the script is done, you might be even on the second white pages. You know, we've all worked on shows that have had that degree, and I don't remember that happening at all.

[Rob]

I think you're right.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. There's a direct correlation between the amount of time you have to write and rewrite and the art department to prepare and the quality of the show. And I always emphasize that to writers that Josh and John deserve credit for building that margin of safety so that he could throw a script out and say, we're starting over without gumming up the works.

[Rob]

It's a great point you're making because it does. It allows the other departments. I Mean, you know, Northern Exposure was so cinematic, and it was cinematic because all the departments got to contribute. And Woody Crocker, who we always sing his praises as the production designer, was given enough time to create these illusions that were sometimes very intricate. I mean, the last show we did, we had a circus come to town, you know, and it's like he had to create that, you know, within 10 days, usually probably at the best, but. But at least he wasn't, you know, putting it all together at the last minute, which. Which is, you know, often the way it works on a lot of network tv.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah, there's. There's something. There's a common expression called the production triangle, which consists of three good, fast and cheap. Pick two. If you want it good and fast, it won't be cheap. If you want it cheap and fast, it won't be good. And then what was the third? And so the big thing in Britain, they certainly know this, is that the more time you have, the more you can save money because you can plan.

[Rob]

The third triangle would be cheap and good. But that's. That's hard.

[Jeff Melvoin]

That won't be fast. That won't be fast. Yeah, that's the last one. And that's usually what the solution is if you have limited money. But, Janine, to answer a question about where did Adam go? He went to somewhere, a shelf of our imagination, maybe a little bit like Frankenstein floating off on the iceberg and only to be retrieved when necessary. I mean, one of the great lessons of writing, Raymond Chandler said, when things get dull, have a man burst into the room with a gun. And that's. That is a good principle. And so I think that we were always trying to surprise ourselves and. And delight ourselves with what was going on. And so Adam is one of those things that is. It's just like. It's such a surprise. It's the equivalent of a man entering a room with a gun in our world.

[Janine Turner]

What I'm referring to, though, is that they're in the two shot, right? And they're right there. And. And then he says, shh. You know, listen. And then within a millisecond, he's gone. So what I didn't mean, like, in the course of the scripts. I just meant it was so quick. It's like, did he jump into the water? Did. Did he sneak off so quietly? You know, it's like, where did he. That was quick. It was sort of like an ascension to the heaven, you know, like in the. The Bible. You know what I mean? It was kind of like well, where'd he go?

[Rob]

That's the mystery of Adam. You never. You never know.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Here's what the script says. Adam, he's concentrating company. Two men and a woman or a very small man. Maurice turns his head, listens for a long beat, nothing. He turns back. Adam's gone.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

That's so fun.

[Rob]

I also love his line in that scene where he says, when they're kind of mano a mano going at it, and Adam says, I could rip your heart out. And I could rip your heart out and show it to you while it's still beating.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Janine Turner]

I love hearing how Josh allowed all of you to work, sort of stream of consciousness. I love that. To me, that makes sense. It makes sense that the show could be this. Because I think in order to get a show that is this brilliant from all of you, the writers that were just Robin and Mitch and Annie and Diane and you, it has to kind of just be. Let's just let it flow. Let, you know, let it all just. Let's let our imaginations just. Let's just do it. And then we'll fit it back into this when we need to. And to circle back to what Rob was saying in the beginning of the conversation. I think that's what this whole show was. It was gonna be like, okay, it was the trees, and the trees talk. But it kind of went all these different directions, and it came back. And I really love hearing that outlines were something that didn't always work, because I'm not a big outline person. I'm a very much stream of consciousness person, because I think when you're in an out, you're confined. Okay, I've got to fit this into this thing. And then you're. You can't. You can't just. You know, I. I won a writing contest in third grade, and they just gave a topic like, it's a monkey in a tree. Right. And I just went, oh, monkey in a tree. And I just did it and started writing, which I happened to win, but it's because I didn't get locked down in kind of. So it seems like Josh allowed that kind of atmosphere. And it's one. It's really interesting to hear how y' all were so in advance you could let that happen, where you could just let these crazy things happen and these crazy things be said before the Internet, I might add.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Yeah. What I say is that when I teach is that the outline is a map. It's not the journey. You have to go on the journey. And sometimes the map Coincides with what you expect. But sometimes, oh, it looks better over there. And that was very much Josh's attitude. And there's. Yet there's another. There's a Yiddish expression, Rob, that I use all the time, which is, if you don't know where you're going, every road will take you there. So you have to have some sense of direction, or you end up nowhere. But between those two poles. I mean, all that mattered to Josh at the end of the day was, does the script work? And if it worked, he didn't care how close it adhered to what we talked about before. And if it didn't work, what did he say? But that's what we agreed to. That was. That was not an acceptable excuse. So it really was a. You know, I look at that period of time, and it really was charmed and a gift. And the planets just have to align. And as we all know from our experiences since, that they don't always align. And in some ways, it's, you know, it's a little miraculous, the whole thing. And people. I was at an Inferno function last night, and somebody said, oh, my mom just had her hip replaced. And while she was recovering, you know what we did? We watched Northern Exposure on Amazon.

[Rob]

I hear so many people, so many people's recovery involves Northern Exposure. It's so interesting.

[Janine Turner]

My mother, every night, she's like, turn on Northern Exposure. Turn on Northern Exposure.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Jeff Melvoin]

I just think that what we're talking about and why people watch it in times of need of comfort or solace or just cheering up is that it really was, as I used to say at the time, it's the human comedy. And I emphasized the human. It was just such a humane show. And it all was. Us veteran writers who we know how to do car crashes and bodies being discovered and all this melodrama, and we didn't have those tricks. I said, our car crashes, our dream sequences, our, you know, we. You know, it. Our act outs could just be a raised eyebrow. You know, it was not. We were working at the. At the height of our powers and trying to outdo each other in the best possible way every week from. From the writer's perspective. And then. And then had the joy of seeing you guys put it on its feet. And so it was this loop that was constantly feeding itself. And, yeah, I mean, I'm just eternally grateful at that opportunity. And like I said, Rob, I felt at the time, this is it. It's not that the rest of life has been a disappointment professionally. It's just you recognize almost like an athlete these conditions are never going to be about. This was the top of my game.

[Rob]

That's a great place to wrap it up. You're so lovely, Jeff, and I think you put smile on both Janine and I's face. So many of your anecdotes and revelations about how the show was put together, and. And, man, it just wouldn't have been what it was. I mean, you, You, You. You give the show so much credit, but without you, it would not have been what it was.

[Jeff Melvoin]

So.

[Rob]

So we. We thank you.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Well, it's great to see you guys, too. I mean, I must say, it's the sign of something that's really meaningful as it feels like it's only been a day. You know, I look at you two guys, and I said, it's. We pick up where we left off.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, it's been like 30, 35 years. It's just like nuts. 34. 34. Yes. Well, Jeff, it was wonderful to see you again. This is a real treat. This is a. This is a joy. And I think this show that Rob and I are doing and Evergreen has been sponsoring for us to do, and Scott McCarthy and all the people are involved in producing it, but it's a great sort of nugget of. Of the classic quality of the show, and it leaves a legacy where people can really understand what was going on behind the scenes. So I thank you for joining us. It's wonderful to see you. I haven't seen you. I saw you about 20 years ago with my daughter. But it's great to see you, Rob. Always fun to. To recapture these moments. Jeff, thank you for all the wonderful scripts. And I. One of your scripts I put up for the Emmy the year I was nominated. I guess you'll have to come back. You'll definitely have to come back.

[Rob]

Yeah, we'll get you back for sure.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Be my pleasure. Okay.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that's it. And we look forward to seeing you next week. And we're signing off from o' Connell and Fleischman.

[Rob]

Actually, I think it should be Fleischman o'.

[Janine Turner]

Connell. In your dreams, Fleischmann.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen.

[Janine Turner]

Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson.

[Jeff Melvoin]

And Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media, I'm Bobby Finger.

[Janine Turner]

And I'm Lindsey Weber. Our podcast who weekly is everything you need to know about the celebrities. You don't think of us as your cheat code to People magazine. Your glossary for Hollywood, A shortcut to understanding pop culture at large.

[Jeff Melvoin]

For the past eight years, who Weekly has been telling listeners everything they need to know about the celebrities. They don't.

[Janine Turner]

Who Weekly airs twice weekly, with brand new episodes on Tuesdays and Fridays. Listen and follow Hooweekly and Odysee podcasts, available now for free on the Odysee app and wherever you get your podcasts. What if you love old movies, but you're also trying to cut down on your screen time?

[Jeff Melvoin]

Stop this progress before it just People.

[Janine Turner]

With blindness or low vision can enjoy films with something called Audio Description, which turns this it's amazing.

[Jeff Melvoin]

Into this it's amazing.

[Janine Turner]

With a flurry of punches, Joe drives Gilbert across the rain. Check out Movies for the Blind, a weekly podcast of classic and cult films with no screen required. Subscribe now. Where you get your podcasts.