S3E11: "Our Tribe" with S. E. Cupp

Summary

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Northern Disclosure – S3E11: “Our Tribe” with S.E. Cupp

Podcast: Northern Disclosure (Evergreen Podcasts)
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Rob Morrow & Janine Turner
Special Guest: S.E. Cupp (journalist, commentator, and Northern Exposure superfan)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Rob Morrow and Janine Turner revisit "Our Tribe," a standout entry from the third season of Northern Exposure. This week, they welcome S.E. Cupp—CNN commentator, writer, and podcast host—as their very first non-production guest, bringing fan insight and a generational perspective. The conversation focuses on the episode’s themes of community, belonging, and transformation, alongside rich behind-the-scenes anecdotes, reflections on contemporary television, and the enduring magic of Cicely, Alaska.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Behind the Scenes: Direction, Writing & Set Design

• Credits: Written by David Assael (noted for blending tribal themes and emotional resonance); Directed by Lee Shallat Chemel—the rare woman director on the show (only two total across 110 episodes).
  • "[Lee] did a terrific job with this. I don't know why we didn't have more women directors… back then there were less women in the DGA and things like that." — Rob (02:15)
• Notable Visuals:
  • The rooftop scene between Maggie and Holling, praised for its romantic, mystical cinematography—a built set, unusual for the show which typically shot outdoors (03:03–04:04).
  • Attention to shot composition and allowing dialogue and performances to breathe.

2. Acting Challenges & Choices

• On-Screen Craft:
  • Janine and Rob discuss the effort behind high-energy scenes, including repeating physical actions for multiple camera angles.
    • "You bring it in the master. You gotta do it again in the wide… you did a fabulous job." — Janine (06:36)
  • Technique for appearing out-of-breath: "What I probably did was run in place and held my breath until I thought I was gonna die… because you hear me, you could hear me. I could barely breathe." — Rob (06:08)
• Notable Improv:
  • Rob’s choice to eat lasagna with his hands: spontaneous, memorable, and messy.
    • "I don't know whether that was written or I did it… my wife was so grossed out. I could just feel her thinking, like, 'oh, my God, who is this person I'm married to?'" — Rob (27:19)
  • The challenges of authenticity in eating scenes, fake props, and coffee cups (28:17–29:31).

3. Iconic Dialogue & Memorable Lines

• Janine recites her favorite poignant lines from the episode:
  • "You're out in space alone against this galactic vortex of disapproval…" — Joel (07:06)
  • "You can't hang out with 5 billion people." — Ed (07:33)
  • "Emotional weather report: Cloudy with a chance of rain." — John Cullum/Holling (08:10)
  • "Sometimes it's hard to avoid the happiness of others." — Janine (08:13)
  • "No coming into consciousness without any pain." — Carl Jung quote, referenced by Chris, discussed by Rob and Janine (08:30)

4. First “Superfan” Guest: S.E. Cupp

• Fan Perspective:
  • S.E. Cupp’s personal history with the show, starting as a 10 or 11-year-old, and the sense of discovering a new kind of male archetype.
    • "The Crush was on Dr. Fleischman… an archetype I had not seen before… Smart, Jewish doctor from the city who's a baseball fan? Like, this is a guy I could… aspire to know or be with." — S.E. (09:57)
  • Parental bonding: Northern Exposure offered rare “thought-provoking but appropriate” family viewing alongside Murder, She Wrote and Jeopardy! (11:07)
  • The impact on Cupp’s intellectual curiosity, philosophical interests, and even her travel to Alaska (13:18–13:57).

5. Themes: Family, Tribalism, and Transformation

• Tribes Beyond Blood:
  • Recognizing Cicely’s community as a found family—“We have become each other's family in the, like, tribe.” — Janine (19:58)
  • S.E. on the warmth of 'Our Tribe:'
    • "You just feel like, oh, great, I have this adopted family now." — S.E. (33:12)
• Transformation:
  • Fleischman’s journey from outsider to tribe member; incremental character change and the challenge of maintaining growth while retaining core character traits.
    • “I see an incremental, you know, change. I do. And I remember trying to be conscious… he's got to be moving forward. There has to be a residual, you know, net result from these events…” — Rob (35:09)
    • “His heart and his compassion had to be revealed to him before he could take ownership from it.” — Rob (35:18)

6. Storylines and Supporting Character Highlights

• Marilyn’s Performance:
  • Marilyn’s subtlety and power—her disapproving silence and tiny, expressive smirks
    • "Those looks she gave me were so penetrating, you know, and unnerving…" — Rob (14:43)
  • "I've grown accustomed to your monosyllables." — Joel (15:24)
• Holling’s Romantic Subplot:
  • The surprise and sweetness of Holling’s storyline—audience expectations subverted (25:07–25:29).
• Goat Antics:
  • Dizzy Gillespie the goat, unpredictable set moments, and the pleasures of improvisation (30:20–32:11).

7. Philosophical & Religious Layers

• Intertwining Belief Systems:
  • Dialogue between Joel’s Jewish background and the Native American spirituality woven through the episode
  • Spiritual ambiguity:
    • "Do you believe in spirits?" "No, but they wouldn't care if I didn't." — Joel & Ed (40:46)
  • "Memories do have a kind of spiritual realm to them, you know? They do." — Rob (42:18)
• Exploring Existence and Questioning:
  • "No coming into consciousness without any pain." — Citing Carl Jung, relayed through Chris (46:15)
  • The show’s gentle, human approach to existential debate—encouraging questioning as a form of growth (46:51).

8. Reflection on Television: Then and Now

• Contemporary vs. Classic TV Pacing:
  • Northern Exposure’s deliberate, ‘slow TV’ pace—contrasted with today’s rapid-fire, twist-heavy storytelling.
    • "There's a desire for immediate gratification in a lot of storytelling… this show slowed you down." — S.E. (48:59)
  • Importance of shows “that aren’t violent, but offer hope.” — Rob (18:55)
• Creative Freedom & Network Dynamics:
  • Showrunner Josh Brand’s fierce creative independence, network pushback on controversial topics, and the rarity of such autonomy today (50:07–53:29).
  • Lack of a traditional writers’ room; scripts more like short stories in literary quality (53:32).

9. Devices & Writing Tools

• Chris in the Morning:
  • Recognized as a device for inserting big philosophical ideas and music into the show (50:47).
  • Joel as the “straight man,” Maggie as the complicated, capable outdoorswoman, and Shelly for comic relief (51:02).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• "You're out in space alone against this galactic vortex of disapproval." — Joel [07:06]
• "Emotional weather report: Cloudy with a chance of rain." — Holling [08:10]
• "No coming into consciousness without any pain." — Chris quoting Carl Jung [08:30]
• "They wouldn't care if I didn’t [believe in spirits]." — Ed [41:18]
• "Memories do have a kind of spiritual realm to them, you know?" — Rob [42:18]
• "There's something timeless about it. I'm amazed how it doesn't look dated or rarely looks dated to me." — Rob [18:31]
• "Northern offers hope." — Rob [19:18]
• "Even through all of that [frustration], it just… you knew it was going somewhere that was going to pay off… you have this adopted family now, was just so beautiful." — S.E. [33:12]

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Other Highlights & Fun Anecdotes

• Goat Hijinks: Dizzy Gillespie was actually hard to manage on set; unexpected animal behavior led to some unscripted comedy.
  • Goat drinking from Joel’s coffee cup was spontaneous (“we just rolled with it”). — Rob (31:42)
• Eating & Prop Pet Peeves:
  • The entire panel bemoans fake food scenes and empty coffee cups—acting “ugly” and keeping things real is the preference (28:17–29:39).
  • "Never do anything you don't want to do, have to do 40 times." — Marlon Brando, quoted by Rob re: repeated eating scenes (28:17)

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Generational Appeal and Relevance

• S.E. is now rewatching the show with her 11-year-old son, noting how contemporary viewers—used to faster media—respond differently to the show’s lengthier, more philosophical scenes (16:53–17:18).
• "What was interesting is [a fan’s] daughter loves the show… that's always good to hear too, the rising generations, because I think the rising generations really need to be able to have their brains slow down a little bit." — Janine (18:08)

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Reflections on Legacy

• The universal nature of the show's themes—search for belonging, found family, transformation, and hope—explains its lasting appeal and discovery by new generations globally.
• "It finds the similarities in our differences and that’s a good thing." — Rob (43:11)

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:09] Intro & Housekeeping
• [02:15] Direction, Writing, and Set Insights
• [04:56] Rewatch Reflections & Acting Stories
• [06:45] Favorite Lines from "Our Tribe"
• [09:41] Introduction of S.E. Cupp
• [11:07–14:13] S.E. Cupp on Being a Childhood Fan
• [14:43] Supporting Characters: Marilyn & Holling
• [18:31] On Timelessness and Nonviolence
• [19:58] Thematic Conversation: Family & Tribe
• [25:07] Holling’s Storyline & Romantic Surprises
• [27:06–29:50] Goat Antics & Eating Scenes
• [33:12] Emotional Payoff & Found Family
• [40:46] Religion, Spirits, and Philosophy
• [46:15] On the Necessity of Pain for Growth
• [48:59] Comparing TV Then and Now
• [50:47] Writing Devices & Chris in the Morning
• [53:29] Writers’ Room & Showrunning
• [54:18] S.E. Cupp on Favorite Episodes
• [55:39] The Joel–Maggie “Will They, Won’t They” Dynamic
• [58:59] Final Reflections on Escape, Tribes, and Family

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Final Thoughts

*“Our Tribe” artfully encapsulates Northern Exposure’s core: empathy, self-discovery, and the importance of collective belonging over individual alienation. The allusions to contemporary media, insights on television writing, and S.E. Cupp’s fresh fan view make this episode accessible, entertaining, and heartwarming—even for first-time listeners or those new to Cicely, Alaska.

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Northern Disclosure continues next week.
Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

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Transcript

[Rob Morrow]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Jeanine Turner]

Hello everybody. I am Jeanine Turner. Welcome to Northern Disclosure, where my handsome and brilliant actor and friend Rob Morrow and I walk through all the episodes of Northern Exposure. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks for joining us. Of course you can watch on YouTube or you can listen anywhere you want to listen. And we have a great show today. It was actually a wonderful show entitled Our Tribe. So, Rob Morrow, howdy.

[Rob Morrow]

Hey, Jeanine, nice to see you. I know you're up against it. How's your mom doing?

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, prayers for my mom. It's just she's 88, what can I say? And I'm her sole caretaker and broken her hip. Now she has afib and it's a lot.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, she's lucky to have you. Yeah. This is an interesting, sweet show. It was written by David Asal. I think that's how you pronounce his last name. I don't really remember David, but he wrote six episodes including. I know, one of your favorites, Russian Flu.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, I loved Russian Flu. And this one had the similar kind of tribal feeling and I have some thoughts about that too. It was kind of dawned on me, but yeah, yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

And it was directed by Lee Shallot. And. And then she has a. She's hyphenated. I think since we worked with her and her name is, I think it's Shamel. Lee Shallot Chamel. And Lee only directed one episode. I thought she did a terrific job with this. I don't know why. You know, I was thinking about we only had two women directors. I believe in 110 episodes. And, and I always love women directors. I don't. I didn't know why we didn't have more. The other was Joan Tewksberry, if you remember who Worked with Bob Altman for years and years, and she was lovely. And I remember Lee being, you know, you know, great. So I. I don't know why. I guess back then there were less women in the DGA and things like that.

[Jeanine Turner]

That's what I'm gonna say. There just weren't a lot of female.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Jeanine Turner]

She had a good sense of.

[Commercial Announcer]

She did.

[Jeanine Turner]

Now that, you know, there was kind of. That. I loved her angles. I love the way things just played, too. Like where you and Ed are underneath the trees. It just stayed in that shot, you know, and you. And you just listen to that beautiful dialogue. And. And also that. That scene on the roof with John Colum and I. And then I'm just kind of looking up and talking. I thought that was a very sort of poignant, sensuous shot. I thought, love that.

[Rob Morrow]

And, you know, the whole thing was built, you know, and it had a romantic, kind of mystical quality because of that, you know, the stars were closer because it was a, you know, backdrop. And there was, like, the little bit of the brick sign in the lower left hand corner. It was a beautiful set and very unusual for Northern Exposure. We tended to be. When we were outside. We were outside. I mean, yes, I guess we did. We did build some outdoor sets, but. But something like that. It's unusual to. To see on the show. Don't. Don't you think? And it looks.

[Jeanine Turner]

Are you talking about where I was on the roof and that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. I tried to remember back. I'm like. I don't remember climbing up wherever we were, because we had.

[Rob Morrow]

No, no, that was a build.

[Jeanine Turner]

But weren't we. And we had to still kind of climb up or. No, they just.

[Rob Morrow]

I don't think you had to climb far.

[Jeanine Turner]

I mean, it was a platform.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, I'm sure a little bit, but not a ladder. It was just a platform, you know, And. And. And very well done. And I thought.

[Jeanine Turner]

And, you know, they never. We never really. It was kind of fun the way Maggie came in. She was all energetic. You know, she had all that energy. She was just.

[Rob Morrow]

What is that about? It never paid.

[Jeanine Turner]

I don't know, because it didn't really go anywhere.

[Rob Morrow]

I know. I was like. I thought you were going to have this whole episode where you hadn't been sleeping and you're drinking coffee and, like. And also, it was really funny. You. I don't know whether you did this intentionally or not, but you kind of sl. You know how Kramer on Seinfeld slides into A room you kind of slid into the bar like you almost crashed into it. But I don't know what that was about. It didn't either.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, I don't really remember the show, quite frankly. I don't really. Maybe I remember the telescope. I maybe remember filming with John Cullum in the telescope, but the rest I kind of really don't remember. So I didn't know what was going to happen. But I have to say, you did a phenomenal job. What a great show for you. I didn't. It was kind of one of these kind of sleeper ones. So it's not the ones that we always think of as our favorites, but man, you were good and I loved your hair. It was kind of longer and, you know, it's just kind of sexy. And you were in all those angst ridden moments you had to portray. And then running across the street when you thought you were going to be.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, I know I looked at that and thought, oh my God, if I had to do that again, I'd be like, maybe he should walk fast. I was running so hard. I was like Dustin Hoffman in Marathon Man.

[Jeanine Turner]

Right. But what people don't know is that you had the wide shot. Well, maybe they do know, but for those who don't know, and so you're physically running and then when it cuts into the, the radio station with Chris, you haven't been running. And so we have to recreate that. I had to do that so many times. You have to. And we have to do it in Cliffhanger. I had to do a zillion times, but I would always go run around, run around, run around, run around, run around before they say action, you know, and then, and then run in the room because you have to. How did you get that energy back up the same kind of way?

[Rob Morrow]

Well, if I know me, what I probably did was run in place and held my breath until I thought I was gonna die. And they probably rolled the camera. And then when I was about to pass out, I ran into the shot and you know, because you hear me, you could hear me. I could barely breathe. I don't. I wasn't faking that.

[Jeanine Turner]

And then you had to do it again in the other camera angle, because then you go sit down. And I think that that's the, that's the kind of craft that we as film and television actors have to create.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

You bring it in the master. You gotta, you gotta do it again in the wide. And the cowboy, when you're standing, when you're sitting, but you you did a fabulous job. I have some favorite lines ready.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, let's. Let's hear him. Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Okay. All right.

[Essie]

He.

[Jeanine Turner]

When she's not. The. That scene when you're talking about how Marilyn refuses to speak to you with Ed and they're packing up your things, that thing you have, that great speech. You're out in space alone against this galactic vortex of disapproval when someone doesn't speak to you.

[Rob Morrow]

Sure.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah. You're out in space alone against this galactic vortex of disapproval. That's. I know people who operate that way with loved ones in it. That really described it. But that was a good, good scene. Oh, oh, oh. When you were talking about. Was it. You were talking about with Ed, about how we kind of all come together now, like a global village type of thing. And then Ed gives you a look and he says, but you can't hang out with 5 billion people.

[Rob Morrow]

Right? Yeah, yeah. And interesting. By the way, it's 5 billion. That's 1993 or 90. 93, I think. May we have now 8 plus billion people on the planet. Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

But it symbolizes what's happening with our society today. We kind of think we're hanging out with people because we're watching and texting and streaming. But you. But we can't, quote, unquote, hang out with 5 billion people. Okay, this was a great line. I'm gonna use this one. Emotional Weather report. Cloudy with a chance of rain.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Did you catch that? That was John.

[Rob Morrow]

Of course. Yeah, it was lovely.

[Jeanine Turner]

Emotional weather report. Cl. Reality with a chance of rain. I only have a few more. Sometimes it's hard to avoid the happiness of others.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, that's profound.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, that's profound, isn't it? Another really profound one. No coming into consciousness without any pain.

[Rob Morrow]

Wrote that down as well. Carl Jung.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah. Carl Young. I liked him. I think I would have liked him a lot better than Freud.

[Rob Morrow]

I think you're probably more aligned with. With the Young than Freud.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's what I thought I just said.

[Rob Morrow]

You did. I'm just saying. You are. I agree with you. Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

So those are my favorite lines. And those are some profound lines. I mean, it's not every day you get to watch a show and hear lines like that.

[Rob Morrow]

So always, always interesting insights on the show. So. So this is an interesting show for us. This is the first time we have a guest who has not worked on the show. She is. I think she would call herself a super fan. She's really lovely, charming, smart. She is se. And she is CNN's SC Cup. And she also hosts the podcast off the cup with SC Cup. And she's written for everything from the. The Washington Post Daily News to the American Spectator to Newsmax Slate. I mean, she's just a. She's just a gem of person. And every time I see her, she tells me how much she loves the show. So here we have SE cup as our first non participatory guest. Hey, Essie.

[Essie]

I'm so honored. Of course. I'm a super fan. That. That is the. That's how you describe it. Yes. I'm a super fan.

[Jeanine Turner]

I saw a clip once when Rob was on your show, and you were talking about the crush that you had on Rob. Right. And I thought, what a good show for you to talk about, because Rob looked really sexy in this show, didn't he?

[Essie]

He did, but the Crush was on Dr. Fleischman. This is important because Rob and I need to maintain a friendship.

[Rob Morrow]

That's right. I got my wife.

[Jeanine Turner]

That is fine.

[Rob Morrow]

She's got her husband over there.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah.

[Essie]

Well, it does not become awkward because my crush was on Joel Fleischman. And it was real.

[Jeanine Turner]

It was real.

[Essie]

This was. I told Rob at the time and on the pod, like an archetype I had not seen before, like, of a man that I could, you know, aspire to know or be with. We just hadn't seen it at, you know, 10 or 11 or 12 or however old I was. And I just thought, wait, smart, Jewish doctor from the city who's a baseball fan? Like, this is a guy I could. This is a guy out there for me.

[Rob Morrow]

And you grew up where, Essie?

[Essie]

Boston.

[Rob Morrow]

Boston. And so you started watching the show. You say you were 10, 11, somewhere in that ballpark.

[Essie]

Whenever it started is when I started watching.

[Rob Morrow]

Now, I know you're. You're an intellectual, so were you already kind of predisposed to that? You know, there probably wasn't a lot out there on TV like that, Right? I mean, what, Twin Peaks, maybe saying elsewhere.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Essie]

Which I wasn't interested in. And there were very few shows we could. All my parents and I could sit around and watch that was both, you know, you know, thought provoking, but appropriate. You know, I was over kids shows for sure. And it was like A Murder She Wrote in Northern Exposure, Right?

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Essie]

And. And Jeopardy. And the news. And so, like this. These were the things we all watched together. And I loved this show so much. I loved the escape of it. I loved the pace of it. It wasn't, you know, it was so slow. And, I mean, that in a good way.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Essie]

And it was deep. I thought of myself as a deep thinker as a child, you know? So I really liked. I really liked that it went to, like, deep, deep thoughts. And all of your relationships were just so great and fleshed out and wonderful. And it was quirky, and I appreciated the dialogue. You know, I'd later come to work with Aaron Sorkin on some TV projects and, like, just really appreciated the attention to the dialogue. Jeanine rattled off some great lines, but, like, one of my favorite from this episode was just you say, what's that? And Ruth Ann says a line, right?

[Jeanine Turner]

So I haven't seen. Right then. And he says, I haven't seen one of those in a long time.

[Essie]

I loved. That's a line. I mean, these callbacks to life in the city and where you came from were just so expertly put in. You never get a chance to forget that Joel doesn't want to be there.

[Rob Morrow]

Joel, right.

[Essie]

You know, you never get a chance to settle in, and you're always reminded that Joel comes from somewhere else.

[Rob Morrow]

So when you first. So you must have, like, this must have ignited some interesting kind of explorations for you, you know, in terms of literature and philosophy. And it must have. You must have kind of. I'm sure you went and got the books that we talk about. Did you love. You must have loved Chris Stevens then, right? I mean, of course.

[Jeanine Turner]

Of course.

[Rob Morrow]

He's my favorite character. He's my crush.

[Essie]

Yeah. I mean, he was a little as.

[Rob Morrow]

Well as Janine, as well as Maggie.

[Jeanine Turner]

Oh, thank you.

[Essie]

Right. Yeah. He was a little too hippie dippy to be my crush. Right. You were my. You were Dr. Joel. The city doctor was the crush, was the fantasy. But. But I just loved his, you know, his radio wisdom. And it also, It. It sparked, like, a love of wanting to get out and see more. And, you know, many years later, I'd go to Alaska and I. I've been to Alaska three or four times now.

[Rob Morrow]

Did you go to that? You know, there's a town there. There's a town there that says, we shot there. And they actually make money. There's, like, signs and Isn't it Talkeetna? Is it talkeetna?

[Essie]

That's what I thought. I've been to Talkeetna, and I remember seeing Northern Exposure stuff kind of around.

[Rob Morrow]

And they tell people, yeah, I was there, too. I mean, I just. I remember we touched down. I was up there for the Iditarod, and we went cruising around in a plane and Touched down places. And there was. I think there's more than one place that says we shot there. But for those of you out there in the audience, we shot the show, as you know, in Seattle. And Which. Just. Which worked well. It did look a lot like Alaska. I mean, where we shot in the mountains.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, Roslyn did. Roslyn. Yeah, exactly. And I thought Marilyn was excellent in this episode.

[Rob Morrow]

She was so good. And those looks she gave me were so penetrating, you know, and unnerving. I mean, even watching them now, I.

[Jeanine Turner]

Have a favorite one. When you're at the dinner table and. And they're. And she's. She's sitting there and you're across the table, and he says, joel, you. You look kind of, you know, like you're upset or something. And she said. She goes, I tell him that you look like that all the time on her face. She would. She would have, like, little. And I'm probably paraphrasing that line a little bit, but she would have this little, tiny, tiny, tiny smirk, you know, but it wasn't. She wasn't really going to let it out, but you could see that it was there.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. And Joel, like, spews, like a tube of. Of. Of linguistic paste. He just spews and spews and spews. And then Marilyn says nothing. And I love when he says to her, you know, I've grown accustomed to your monosyllables. You know, she just says, yes, Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

That was a great scene, Rob. Well played. And then when she walked away, and you're like, okay, okay, okay, I'll do it.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, she's. She's really good in this one.

[Jeanine Turner]

But you know what it showed Fleischman. Fleischman. Rob, confused today. Are you Fleischman or are you Rob?

[Essie]

Is it.

[Jeanine Turner]

It showed the redeeming quality to all the characters in the town, is that in the end, even if we would scream and holler and carry on and not want to do something, there was a. There was empathy. There was care and empathy for the other person, compassion for the other person. And I think that that's a rarity in today's society as well.

[Essie]

But.

[Jeanine Turner]

But the. The way that you really cared, you didn't want to upset her, and that's the reason you did everything. And. And that just shows that Fleischman is brass as he could be. Actually had a heart.

[Rob Morrow]

No, and also that you're right. And everyone celebrates his kind of, you know, his. His transformation into this tribe at the end. And you come and just out of nowhere and kiss Me on the cheek. Like, just celebrate, you know, it's some. There's been some kind of rite of passage.

[Jeanine Turner]

Mm. It was an excellent show.

[Rob Morrow]

Essie, you've seen all. You've seen all the shows, I'll bet.

[Essie]

Oh, yeah. And I'm doing. I saw them all at the time and I'm starting to do like a rewatch with my son, who's 11. He watched one. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, the pace is so different. I don't know you could make this show today. And so he's not used to like, like a 10 minute scene that's in one place of just, like dialogue.

[Rob Morrow]

I think you can make it. I mean, there's shows like. Severance is very slow paced.

[Essie]

Severance is my favorite show currently on.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, it's up there. It's high up there for me.

[Essie]

Oh, I love it. But what I love about Severance is, you know, it's the mystery and it's such a thriller. And there are so many questions that it sets up in the beginning that are like, very slowly unpacked over time. And in a similar way, Northern Exposure is sort of slowly unpacked over time.

[Jeanine Turner]

It lets the poignancy of the philosophy of the show and it lets it marinate. Well, we talked about that, Rob, you know, like the souffle that just has to sort of bake, and that's what happens. But, you know, I went to an event last night and the chancellor of the college walked in and. And she walked in with her husband, and he was a huge fan of Northern Exposure. But what's. What was interesting is he said, my daughter loves the show. Let me take. Let me take a picture of you right now so I can send it to my daughter. So that's always good to hear too, the rising generations, because I think. I think the rising generations really need to be able to have their brains slow down a little bit.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, there's a weird phenomenon that, that. That's happening, you know, a lot of. Around the world a bit, you know, in countries where younger generations are discovering the show and seeing something fresh. I mean, I. I always think that it. There's something timeless about it. I'm amazed how it doesn't look dated or rarely looks dated to me.

[Jeanine Turner]

And it's also not violent. We haven't talked about that much, but it's not violent.

[Rob Morrow]

Right, I agree. I mean, that's, to me, what I, as an audience person, I'm searching for shows that are not violent. I mean, I watch them because they're Good. But, like, I want, you know, that's why I like the show. Stick with Owen Wilson. You know, it just, it's got a heart to it. And it's not, it's not, it's not maudlin or, you know, or. Or treacly or anything, but it, It. It's hopeful. You know, I want hope, right? And Northern offers hope.

[Jeanine Turner]

And, you know, I sent last week, I believe it was last week, Jeff Melvin, one of our. Our favorite writer producers, Essie was on, and he talked about the fact that, you know, there was only one married couple and, you know, no pets, nobody had a pet. And I thought, you know, that's interesting. So today, when I was watching, when I realized we're all each other's family, except for Holling and Shelley, who are married. The rest of us are. We don't have our family around you, our mothers, and they come visit. Right. But it's just ourselves. We have become each other's family in the, like, tribe.

[Rob Morrow]

You could say that that year that the title of the episode, Our Tribe is, you know, not just about the.

[Jeanine Turner]

Native American tribe, but about our tribe.

[Rob Morrow]

Hey. So we get asked to, you know, promote all kinds of things on this show, but this one for me is so easy because I. I love digital frames and Aura Frames has, you know, risen above head of the class in terms of. Of digital frames. I was an early adopter. I'm a. I'm a hobbyist as a photographer, and I made the transition from film to digital photography years ago and almost, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, when the digital frames first started coming out, I got one instantly and I loved it. Except that it was such a hassle to load photos that basically what happened was I put the photos in and it lived that. That's all I could get those photos in. And I never went back to it again. So it was great for those photos. But with Aura Frames, which is so genius, you can load them with the app. You get the app, you put your photos in there, and they're in there, and then you can add and add and add, and it's the coolest thing, is giving a gift. So, for instance, I went on a trip recently with my mom and my sister, and when I saw this Aura Frames, first of all, it's a beautiful frame itself. It just looks great on a table, but it comes in a really cool box. And I thought, I'm going to give this to my mom for the holidays coming up. And what I can do is I can load all the my videos with sound and all the pictures from the trip and I can have my sister do it simultaneously. You know, she lives far away from me. She puts it in and when my mom gets the gift, she opens this beautiful box, she plugs it in and there's our whole trip video with sound and pictures. And then she can even add her own. So this thing's a no brainer. And then you can, you know, you can keep adding photos really easy. And that to me is the thing. It looks good and it's easy to load the picks. So I can't say enough about how cool this is. I'm hoping that Aura frames, now that I said such nice things, they're going to send me a couple more because I, I want to give them as gifts and I want one for my own. Now I've given the one that they gave me away. So what I'm going to tell you is a couple things. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Northern at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code NORTHERN. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jeanine Turner]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix from the creator of Homeland. Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series the Beast and Me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice and doubt. You will not want to miss this. The Beast in Me is now playing only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored job to find the right people with the right skills fast.

[Essie]

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[Jeanine Turner]

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[Jeanine Turner]

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[Essie]

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[Jeanine Turner]

Terms and conditions apply.

[Essie]

Yeah, and no, no kids. Sometimes kids are used as, you know, a device, right? And you really had to get into this family of grownups without the bells and the whistles, the pets and the kids and the romantic besides the two of you, you know, storylines that would drive it. Like you really just have to get into life in this small town.

[Rob Morrow]

And the pets are part of that. Pets are animals. It's always amazing to me.

[Jeanine Turner]

The goat in the show was great.

[Rob Morrow]

The goat, Dizzy Gillespie, who I named Dizzy. But the opening shot has. I. I think those are llamas.

[Jeanine Turner]

Llamas, Llamas.

[Rob Morrow]

No reason. Like, it's just, like, never explained. Never explained, which is great. And that's all we. We had. Ann Gordon.

[Jeanine Turner]

Did you see Ann Gordon there? There was a shot with the American flag, and you're walking down the street, something, and she's. The dog is standing up with his paws on her shoulder, and she's feeding it. Did you.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, I didn't catch that.

[Essie]

No, I saw that. I thought. At first, I thought it was Shelly because of her bangs and her hair, but I totally saw that, and I was like, oh, huh, huh.

[Rob Morrow]

Holland was so, so. He's so loving when he gets flummoxed and confused and, you know, unsure of himself. And I. I love that storyline with him trying to rediscover this relationship through.

[Jeanine Turner]

The star, a lost flame.

[Essie]

But it's so unexpected. And, you know, as you're seeing Holling, you know, shut down the brick and turn people away and act kind of weird about it and, you know, receiving these packages, you're kind of. The mind goes to. Well, what's he doing in there? In my mind, the cynic, you know, he's doing something he shouldn't be doing in there.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, me, too. I went there, too.

[Essie]

Yeah, well, yeah, because even though that would never come from him, his character, but you're still like, well, it's got to be something kind of shameful. And to have. You'd never guess in your mind that this is what he was there doing, and it's so romantic, and you just feel for him. But what a lovely storyline. What a lovely storyline, because they could have gone in a million directions there.

[Jeanine Turner]

That's true. And there was that moment, though, when I said he and I were talking, and he goes. And nobody knows except me and her, his ex flame. And now you. And the little look I got on my face, you know, the little smile. I thought, oh, that. That's a nice bond. Because I always love. I love everybody in the show. But, you know, that. That was a fun little bond for Column and for Maggie to have, because you don't always see that. But I have to say, on one of the scenes, I really loved as well, Rob, we got to talk about yours, because you had so many good scenes. So many. But when Maurice walks in at the end and Corbett wants to go to drive 200 miles to a bar. And he goes, son, I'm gonna take you. I've seen that look, you know, and it didn't end up well. I thought, oh, that's when that family thing hit me.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. And it's interesting. That bar is. The next bar is 200 miles away in sleep. Mute. Right. We were isolated. They never ceased to overemphasize the isolation, you know, that we were. You know, that the characters had. Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Oh, Rob, can I tell you, when you ate the lasagna with your hand. We gotta talk about that choice. It reminded me very much of Elf.

[Essie]

Of.

[Jeanine Turner]

Of the Elf, the movie, you know, when he's shoving all the food in his mouth, but to eat the lasagna with your hand. And then you did it again. Talk. Talk to us about that. That you didn't, like. Go, wait. Maybe because you looked. For a minute, I thought. You thought, maybe I should be using a fork. But that's not where you went with it.

[Rob Morrow]

I don't know whether that was written or I did it or whatever. It's how it came about. But we were watching it last night, my wife, and she was so grossed out. I could just feel her thinking, like, oh, my God, who is this person I'm married to? He's disgusting. It was so, like, you know, I guess if you're so starving, that's what you do.

[Jeanine Turner]

But it was a great choice.

[Essie]

Great.

[Jeanine Turner]

You know, it was a great acting choice because in all those years of acting classes, right. It's like, take it way out there. Take it so far emotionally. I remember I did an audition once, and the director said to me, you've got more on you than that. I'm like, okay. So I went back in. I was, like, full, thrown, emotional. I took the table and tossed it over. Whatever. He goes, yeah, that's what I was talking about. You got the job now. You know what I mean? But it doesn't mean you keep it there. You can't. You can bring it back. But I loved that choice that you made because it was so far out there, and it takes guts to do that. Most actors get a little intimidated by the camera and whatever, and you got to kind of keep it in this little box. You just went all in and just. You took it out there.

[Rob Morrow]

And mind you, you know, Marlon Brando said advice to actors, never do anything you don't want to do, have to do 40 times. So you see me eat that, but you're thinking, I probably did that like 15, 20 times. Oh, God.

[Jeanine Turner]

You were full.

[Essie]

It's Funny.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, there's a meme, believe it or not, I, I, for one reason or another, I've had to do a lot of eating scenes in my career. And there's a meme on the Internet about it. Like, people talk about me eating, like, eating billions. I had these scenes where I just stuffing my face in Quiz Show. I was stuffing my face in Northern Exposure. There's so many scenes that, that it's caught people. Some people think it's like, the greatest eating they've ever seen, and some people are repulsed by it. But it's so funny every time one of those scenes pops up, you know, someone. I noticed that on social media.

[Jeanine Turner]

I have a real pet peeve. I have a real pet peeve. Two pet peeves. One, when you're watching an eating scene and nobody's really eating.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, that's part of my reasoning. Yeah, I agree with you.

[Jeanine Turner]

Let's be ugly. So I would always, always eat. But the other thing, I hate. And y' all have seen this, and now you're always going to think of me when you see this. Coffee cups that don't really have any coffee kills me.

[Rob Morrow]

I'm with you there.

[Jeanine Turner]

Bags, like suitcases or boxes that have nothing in them. I'm like, with you there. Oh, there's nothing in that, but, like.

[Essie]

You know it every time.

[Rob Morrow]

Or you look at dinner scenes with, with, you know, you know, macho actors, and they're like, eating a piece of lettuce, cutting it up and just eating it. Yeah, that's.

[Essie]

Yeah, we can tell. We can tell when that happens. We can tell.

[Rob Morrow]

I never understand why they, you know, it's so obvious. You know, it's just. It feels like to me, everything that you can do where you don't have to worry about acting, you should do. So as a director, I try to, you know, if there's something in the bag, you should have it. It affects the way you, the way you behave, but that's. I'm right. I'm with you on that point, Jeanine.

[Essie]

Let me ask you this. You know, the goat plays prominently in this episode.

[Rob Morrow]

Dizzy Gillespie.

[Essie]

Yeah, Dizzy Gillespie. And there are times where we just hear a random crash in your office at your house. Was. Was that like the. Whoever handled the animals said, he's just gonna go and break stuff, or was that, like, added in? Or did you just have to be like, this goat is here, and I'm just supposed to let this go? Break. Whatever it breaks.

[Rob Morrow]

It's probably both. You know, clearly, you know, I could tell that we were just kind of going with the flow. In some of those scenes, go wasn't on screen. It was either added later or it was done in practical. Someone like an assistant director was off screen making the noise so that I could react to it.

[Jeanine Turner]

Or.

[Rob Morrow]

Or they had the goat on set. But usually if the go wasn't in the shot, it wasn't on set. You know, they. They would get rid of it because of that. For that very reason.

[Essie]

Yeah, they're not very. I mean, they're trainable in. In a way, but, like, they're loud. They go where they want to go. I mean, it seemed like that could have been a very, very chaotic.

[Rob Morrow]

But you can tell when I'm walking with the leash and I have the goat, you can tell it's like I'm struggling because I'm, like, holding the leash.

[Jeanine Turner]

It's not a dog.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

Well, I like the scene when they talk to us about the scene where the goat comes up and starts drinking your tea out of the coffee cup.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Essie]

Was that plant.

[Jeanine Turner]

I mean, obviously you can't train a goat to come drink out of the coffee cup, so. Talk about that a minute.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, it looked to me like it was spontaneous because then it spilled all over the table and, you know, I didn't do anything about it. So I think it probably. It probably was spontaneous and we just rolled with it. I mean, that's. That's the fun of it, is just seeing what happens. I wouldn't mind seeing the outtakes because I'm sure there's a lot of weird outtakes, you know.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, those are great moments. Those are some of the most golden moments when things happen like that. But the goat. The goat was. You saw Ann a lot in that show, our animal trainer, because that's funny.

[Rob Morrow]

I didn't see. Where else did you see her?

[Jeanine Turner]

No, no, no, I.

[Essie]

You.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, you mean just the effects of her. Oh, I see what you mean.

[Jeanine Turner]

She was on set with you handling the goat as the animal wrangler off camera. Yeah, yeah. In other words, you were working with Anna.

[Rob Morrow]

Absolutely. I get it. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Because of. Because of the goat and the way you have to give away all your things, but you didn't know you'd have to really give away all your things and then you don't really get your things back.

[Rob Morrow]

It's a cultural conversion, they call it. Right. And then I love when Chris says. Chris says there's going to be a flesh sacrifice to come. Right. That's when that running.

[Essie]

Yeah, that's so good.

[Jeanine Turner]

That was a good scene.

[Rob Morrow]

So good.

[Essie]

But I love that in the end. In the end, you know, it's a plaque. Like, you get a plaque, and. And they're like, let's eat. And you're like, that's it.

[Jeanine Turner]

And it says bingo. It says bingo above, you know.

[Essie]

Yeah, bingo. But, like, charting your resistance, you know, from the beginning of the episode to your succumbing at the end of the episode and then having it actually not. Not be as bad and actually having it kind of work in the way I'm sure they intended it, where you just feel like, oh, great, I have this adopted family now, was just so beautiful. And those scenes with Ed in the woods, like, it was all just really beautiful. And you got the sense, even through your frustration, because you act incredibly to show us how frustrated you are and nervous and scared and annoyed at times. Even through all of that, it just. You knew it was going somewhere that was going to pay off at some point. Like, there's a plan here, and it's actually going to be okay. It was really. It was beautiful.

[Jeanine Turner]

I don't think he did know that. I don't think he did know.

[Rob Morrow]

I don't think he consciously knew it. But I think, you know, there's something about the. The transformations that he makes, the kind of metamorphosis that he makes over the arc of the. The who show, you know, that are. It's fascinating because they're just, you know, he takes one step forward and one step back because, you know, the next week, he's just going to be the curmudgeon he was. And. And. But he. But. But I. I don't know if I'm imagining it or projecting it, but now watching these shows with some distance from them, I see an incremental, you know, change. I do. And I. And I remember, you know, trying to be conscious of that when we're shooting it was that he's got to be moving forward. There has to be a residual, you know, net result from these. These events that he's. He's forced to go through them. But, you know, you. You could make an argument that another character would just say, hey, this. I'm not doing it. You know, you. Like. But he doesn't. He kind of like. Like, I guess to your point, he kind of knows on some level that he has to go through this.

[Essie]

Well, but.

[Jeanine Turner]

But that's what I went back to, because you were a good person. You had empathy, you had heart, and that was. That was Leishman's saving grace.

[Rob Morrow]

You're right. That's a good way to put it, Janine. And. And it's like that. It's almost like his heart and his. His compassion had to be revealed to him before he could take ownership from it.

[Jeanine Turner]

And.

[Rob Morrow]

And over the series. That's his journey.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah. And it also gets really boring for actors to play the same thing over and over and over and over. The same note, for sure. But I. I think that we were so lucky with these scripts. I mean, they really were like short stories. It was just. They. You know what? They should be. These scripts should be compiled into a book. You know how they did that with Hamilton? They were. They were selling the script. You could buy the script in a book. They should sell these scripts. Come, you know, compile. Oh, we should talk to somebody about that. We wouldn't see any money from that. But, I mean, that would be really cool to have all our select scripts put in a book.

[Rob Morrow]

Right? I mean, you can get them online.

[Jeanine Turner]

You can.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, you can get a lot of them, for sure.

[Jeanine Turner]

Really? Like where?

[Rob Morrow]

Just. Just look up Northern Exposure script in the episode. Like, Because. Because when I was writing something, I was looking. I was looking at a lot of scripts, for sure.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah. I've got them in some old box somewhere.

[Rob Morrow]

You know what's interesting in this is back, you know, Maurice. Up until this episode, we always thought that Maurice was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts. Right. And then all of a sudden, it's revealed that he wasn't for the first time. It's like a contradiction. You know, when he says Alan Shepard, you know, got the shot that he didn't get. That's. It's an interesting. I don't know if that was accidental or it was to the point where they were like, oh, whatever, no one's going to notice it.

[Jeanine Turner]

Did he say he was one of the seven ever?

[Rob Morrow]

It's implied a lot. Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Maybe Maurice wants people to kind of think that, and he. Because everybody. Everybody, in a way, in the show was sort of revealing something they don't reveal to anybody else. And maybe the moon made him do it, because I. Holly, never revealed to anybody else about the star, but to me, and maybe Maurice this. And it was interesting when we went back to that last. Last shot, by the way, There was. Y'. All. There was no moon. It's like the moon had gone away. The moon was a big focus in all the outdoor shots.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, that's very observant when you and.

[Jeanine Turner]

Ed are lying there. It was a shooting star, but no moon.

[Rob Morrow]

That's Interesting.

[Essie]

But also in that scene where he's revealing that Chris is asleep, he's not really telling anybody, he's telling us, the audience. But like Chris is asleep in the back of the car. Maybe this is Maurice's confession, you know, for himself.

[Rob Morrow]

I'm wondering if that was even John Corbett. I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone standing.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, no, it looked like him. So lumbering and you know, that was the other thing. There were a lot of night shoots in this and the ice and snow were on the, on the ground. So it was actually really cold. I started wearing absolute fur, fur lined vest underneath my jacket. So when I, when people meet me they go, you're not as big as you looked on tv. I'm like, well I had a fur line vest thing and then I had coat over that. Then I, you know, sorrel boots and big socks and lots of gloves and a hat. But it was cold. But also. Oh, night shoots. There were a lot of night, the night shoots.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it did. They. And they take, they take a toll because you're flipping your schedule and you're going to bed when you should be waking up and all this. It's. They take a toll. But I just was thinking about the moon, how everyone saw, you know, it was interesting the way each of us had our observation of the moon, you know. Janine, you said you saw Mick Jagger and Ron Howard. I don't think you ever referenced them in the show before. But the. It's interesting. Like that's not who I would think, you know, all the guys that Maggie ends up with, none of them resemble Mick or Ronnie Howard.

[Jeanine Turner]

That's true. Maybe that's when she was at Grosse Pointe. Michigan debutante. She was. Yeah, she was not the man obviously, but.

[Rob Morrow]

And Ed sees a bunny, you know, I see pizza face.

[Essie]

Yeah, bunny so good.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, everybody does see what they want. And you know, I might add to that jacket that they gave you. That vest was gorgeous.

[Rob Morrow]

It was pretty nice. I wonder if I ended up with it. I wouldn't be surprised if I have it.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah, that was beautiful. That's a beautiful jacket.

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[Rob Morrow]

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[Essie]

I also love the way this episode in particular tackles religion, because you. You know, Joel talks a lot about his tribe in Judaism, and then there's also the talk of the spirits, and. And there's a great line where you and Ed are under the tree, and you say to him, well, do you believe in spirits? And he says something like, no, but they wouldn't care if I didn't.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Essie]

And it's like, oh, right. You know, like his version was, they're there whether I believe or not, they're there. And your version is, I haven't seen them. I don't know if they're there. I have no proof. I've got no. I've had no visions. No one in Flushing's ever had a vision. I don't know. But his point was, they wouldn't care. They don't care if you think something happens after we die or not.

[Jeanine Turner]

I love that. And, you know, Maggie talked about it, too. Now that I think about it, Maggie talked about it, too. She makes some kind of correlation with that saying, everybody's just right here, you know, we just can't see them, which is very much.

[Essie]

Yeah. When Holly's trying to make sense of Eleanor's gone, and what do I do with that? And I missed this. I missed the star. And you said, we're all here, and she's not really gone. And. And earlier, Joel, you. Rob, you talk. Joel talks about memories. We're there in memories. And Ed's like spirits, and you're like, no, memories, memories. That's how we live on.

[Rob Morrow]

It's a fascinating distinction, because it made me think, you know, I mean, there's. It made me think that memories do have a kind of spiritual realm to them, you know? They do.

[Essie]

Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

There's an ether to them. They float up into your. Into your consciousness, and. And they carry so much, almost like. Like things are carried in the midst of air, you know?

[Essie]

Yeah. Well, the whole episode is everyone kind of trying to whittle down. How do we get to a place where we all speak the same language on this stuff? My tribe versus your tribe, My version of the afterlife. Vers versus your version of the afterlife. And who's really gone, who's not gone? What's a memory, what's a spirit? And you're all coming from your lived experiences and you're having these conversations in your own way, but they're all related and they're all getting at kind of the same existential angst, which is so.

[Rob Morrow]

Fascinating, which is what it, you know, all of so much of culture and religion is that, you know, when I, when I back in the day studied and compared religions, you know, I was amazed how the similarities of what was going on in the heart of them all and the essence of them when you get away from the doctrine and you know, and that's again, I think what brings us why the show offers some kind of hope is that it finds the similarities in our differences and that's a good thing.

[Essie]

And it also doesn't shy away from these big questions which are hard to answer, impossible to answer, and certainly hard to answer in an hour long television show. But to dive into those, the questions that matter most. Right. I remember for, for my, for my master's dissertation, I studied the devotional practices of religious people and sports fans.

[Rob Morrow]

Sports fans. Oh, interesting.

[Essie]

So much common ground and you know, you know, why you become why you're a Jew versus why you're a Yankee fan. Very capricious. You were born, you were born into it by geography, by passed on from your dad. You don't generally choose either of these two things and get the faith of these two things is really, really huge and overwhelming and it's not evidence based. You, you love the Mets because you love them even though they let you down every year and you know all of these things. So when you're describing your tribe, you're like, well, what am I? Well, I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a Jew, I'm a New Yorker, I'm a, I'm a Met fan or a Knicks fan. I think you say I'm a Knicks fan.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, Knicks fan.

[Essie]

Yeah, a Knicks fan. And like these are your identities and it doesn't sound weird to put a Jew with a Knicks fan, even though one you'd think would, would hold much more weight is much more important. And, and, but they're not, they are as important of a tribe to you.

[Jeanine Turner]

Except when you're dealing, when you're dealing with sports, you're not really dealing with the afterlife. And I, or you know, your spirit and it's like you might like have a tribe that you all love the sport and you know, you love the, whatever the sport, but it's not about the afterlife. It's not about spirits. And. And I think what happens in this show is the questioning of spirits. And, Rob, I loved when you're lying. That line when you're lying there with Fleischman, I mean, with Ed, and you say, do I have to believe in spirits to get a vision?

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Essie]

What's the requirement?

[Jeanine Turner]

The classic philosophical. And we were talking. You're talking about questioning. It's just the questioning that they're not afraid to question and. And to kind of cross those borders. And today, everyone kind of feels shut down, like, you can't do that. But they say, I'm going to question it, and I can question it, and that's okay. And that's. That's the whole. We talk about it a lot, Rob. Right.

[Rob Morrow]

And questioning leads to. Leads to. You know, it's not easy to question things. You know, it's. It's.

[Commercial Announcer]

And.

[Rob Morrow]

And I think Chris says something really profound at one point. He said, you know, I think he's quoting Young maybe, where he said, you got to lie down sometimes. You got to lie down with your pain.

[Jeanine Turner]

Oh, I wrote that line down, didn't I? Did I write. Is that one of my lines? Well, I put no coming into consciousness without any pain.

[Rob Morrow]

Right. He wrote. He. He elaborated on it. But he first, in that. In that monologue, he talks about, you just gotta lie down with your pain. And I think that means, you know, looking at yourself like we're talking about and. And. And challenging yourself and asking these questions that we all have within us. I mean, we're all curious.

[Essie]

Yeah, but the way you all get at those questions, not just in this episode, it's just very human. It's very simple. It's not complicated. It's not trying to be edgy or. It's just really like the human existence, the human experience, and the kinds of conversations you'd have in real life about these really big, esoteric, you know, existential.

[Jeanine Turner]

Questions, the ease with which that happens. Sometimes it's not. I thought about that too. Right. Sometimes it's not. Maggie gets mad, you get mad. Holland gets mad, Maurice gets mad. But the bottom line is there's always a resolve at the end of it and acceptance at the end of it.

[Essie]

But, you know, there was an early episode. I don't remember all the details. There was an earlier episode, remember, where. Where Maurice wants to shut down Chris's radio show.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Essie]

Because he doesn't like the music and the conversation. Right.

[Rob Morrow]

Because he's playing. He's playing. Is it the Broadway musical Stuff.

[Jeanine Turner]

He was talking about Walt Whitman. He was talking about Walt.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Essie]

What's cool about that? In my memory, the whole town came behind Chris to say. Kind of to say to Maurice like, you got to open that up again. You can't. You can't shut him down. You can't tell him what. What to play or what to say. And it was done in a really cute, non. Political. Non. You know, it was just done in a really nice. A small town way, the way it would happen in a small town.

[Jeanine Turner]

But in the end, Maurice accepts it. Yes. Explains it. And then they both say they're sorry. You know, Chris says he's sorry. He says he's sorry. So once again, it's that kind of going around full circle. Yeah. Resolutions.

[Essie]

Yes.

[Jeanine Turner]

Resolution.

[Rob Morrow]

It's fascinating. I mean, I'm keep coming back to how these shows were written, you know, like, what they must have gone through because they're so carved out, you know, they're so thought out without being, you know, without being preachy. And I can't think of. Can you. Do you. Is there anything you watch in this day Se. That. That. That similar to this, or what. What would be anything?

[Essie]

No, I find a lot of TV today. Then this isn't a value judgment. It's true of very good tv and I think not great tv, but, like, there's a desire for immediate gratification in a lot of storytelling. And that's for all the reasons you can imagine. And I think what this show does so well. Did so well. Was slow you down. You were the perfect. You, Dr. Fleischman, were the perfect vessel to take the audience through this journey of slowing down because, you know, your character had to slow your change of pace in your way of life. And so we did, too. And it allowed for these larger conversations and thought experiments, and you had to slow down. And I just don't know that there's a lot of that in today's storytelling. You know, a lot of it is like, zooming ahead and flashing back, and you're getting some kind of payoff all along the way to keep. To keep you, you know, your attention on it. And I just don't think this. Worried about that.

[Jeanine Turner]

No. And Josh wasn't gonna let anybody tell him what to do. We've been hearing a lot about that. Not the networks, not this, not the studio. He was gonna do, you know, whatever he wanted to do, however he wanted to do it.

[Essie]

Was there ever pushback? Was their network.

[Jeanine Turner]

Well, I think there was pushback. I think they said they wanted to get rid of, you know, the show and him at one point, because it was. But. But the show was such a success despite. And that gave him the ability to continue to do whatever he wanted to do. And one thing, Essie, with what you're talking. Talking about, it's interesting is I've realized, especially with Chris in the Morning, they had the greatest. What's the word, Rob? Like, the greatest tool to mouthpiece to be able to put anything philosophical they wanted to say.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

Mouth. Yeah. An avatar.

[Essie]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

And they could. Good. Good word. And they could put any music in there through Chris. That was a great. I kept trying to think of the word, but it was a vehicle. It was a great device. Thank you. It was a great device.

[Essie]

Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

So each one of our characters, and it's really. Rob, I was really aware, too, with your. Your character in the show, how you were always like, the straight man. The straight man. The straight man, the straight man. And everything around you was. Was funny. You know, like what Ed would do was funny. The thing the. The goat was funny. You know, Marilyn was funny. So you're kind of the straight man for everyone else, and they bring in the comedy around you, which. Which makes it worth. But I don't know what Maggie's device. What that device would have been, except just to show an outdoorsy, complicated kind of character. I don't know. But you really, really see it, I think, in your character, and you see it in Chris in the Morning, just that they could. They could put anything they wanted in his mouth. As a writer, you know, that's kind of cool because we're all writers. You know, it's like, wow, anytime I want to say something, I could just go over here. And the other one that put they. The Shelley. Right. They could put anything silly in Shelly's mouth that she just played perfectly, you know, because she played it with such innocence.

[Commercial Announcer]

So.

[Jeanine Turner]

So it was. It was pretty cool.

[Rob Morrow]

There was pushback from. You know, initially, network really tried to challenge Josh. There were certain shows that, you know, like when they dealt with gay themes, that. That. That, you know, certain. Certain affiliates wouldn't air episodes.

[Jeanine Turner]

No, they didn't want to air the Circumcision show, too.

[Rob Morrow]

Circumcision show as well. But they. They ordered. After the initial two orders of eight, they ordered 50 episodes, which was unprecedented. And once they did that, that gave Josh and John an immense amount of power because, I mean, I guess technically they could be fired, but at that point, they were. They were investing in them and. And they had ultimately total autonomy from Then on, I mean, they didn't even. I. They must have submitted scripts, but they. They didn't have notes calls. And I don't even think they were getting notes calls on the episodes. At a certain point, they were just.

[Jeanine Turner]

Handing them in, and they were way ahead in schedule. We found out, too, through Jeff Melvine. They really thought things through and had them.

[Rob Morrow]

Even though they would sometimes throw out entire scripts, you know, they would get a script in and just chuck it.

[Jeanine Turner]

Wow. They were so ahead.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. Josh is amazing. He's, you know, I. It's just, again, you. You appreciate from the distance, some. Some objectivity. Josh is one of the two creators. John is not with us anymore. John Falzy. But I always felt that the show more represented Josh's sensibilities. And as we talk to more and more people, that's clear, you know, he was really driving the ship.

[Jeanine Turner]

He was a taskmaster, they say.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

And I like that too. You know, I like hearing about that. That really brilliant people, you know, can go out there in the world and they can be tough, you know, and they can. They can have. They can have high standards for people and say, this isn't good enough. Don't like it. Go. I mean, suppose he would say that. Nope, don't like it, go. Make it better. Nope, nope, nope. And. And people don't go, oh, my God. You know, how could he talk to me like that? It's just like, he's a genius. He had a high bar, and then everybody rose to that bar and wanted to get there. It was like, you know, the Rising Tide, so.

[Rob Morrow]

And there was no real writer's room, which is interesting. They didn't have a writer's room. They just kind of. He worked separately with different writers, and.

[Jeanine Turner]

They competed with each other.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

We know that now. They competed with each other as we've had them all on.

[Essie]

Oh, wow.

[Jeanine Turner]

Huh.

[Rob Morrow]

Do you have other show episodes that stand out? Like, when you think about the series.

[Essie]

Like, oh, I mean.

[Jeanine Turner]

That'S hard. That's like saying name your favorite movie and you can't think of a single movie at all.

[Essie]

It is hard. But I think for me, as a young girl, all the times you two did your dance.

[Rob Morrow]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Essie]

Was exciting for me because I adored both of you as characters. And I related to Maggie because hard charging and, you know, knew what she wanted. And so I always loved your interactions. Whether they were not pleasant in the beginning, but sort of the underlying chemistry you could see and then the progression. I think that was always my favorite part. Cause Ultimately, I was still just like, you know, a prepubescent girl.

[Jeanine Turner]

You were a tween.

[Essie]

I was a tween. Yeah. And so. Yeah. And I. Yeah, I think all of those moments were really fun for me to see and watch.

[Jeanine Turner]

Well, and talking about devices, that was our. We filled the sexuality kind of sensuous spark because you really weren't going to get that from Holly and Chris really never had anybody, you know, Ed, maybe Maurice didn't really have any. So that we were kind of filling that checklist, you know, let's say.

[Essie]

Well, I think you needed it because Joel was young and you were young, and the idea that he would be there for four years or whatever was hard enough to stomach. If he was gonna have to do it and be, like, celibate, like, it was gonna be really tough. So I think an audience needed the promise, the potential that you might have some kind of relationship while you're there.

[Rob Morrow]

And no easy trick. The spark was interesting to watch, but there was not. That is so hard to do to write, like, keeping people apart because that's what they had to do. It was like they had to bring us close and. And. And then pull us away without seeming contrived, you know, that. That's a real. And they did it really well until, you know, but once you do it, you know, it's over. And, you know, I don't know.

[Jeanine Turner]

Well, that's why Maggie had to forget it. Remember, Maggie forgot one of my. Jeff Melville wrote that. That was when I first favorite scenes. I'm outside the car. I'm like, no, we didn't. No, no, no, no, we didn't. Yes, we did. No, we didn't. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

They were probably just seeing if the audience would buy it, and then they could just say it never happened.

[Essie]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

So even when we did it, it wasn't really done because we had to, like, erase it so we could still have the, you know, the potentiality that it could be done later.

[Essie]

Yeah, right. Exactly.

[Rob Morrow]

They only. They only consummate once. Is that true or is it they. They.

[Jeanine Turner]

I was just thinking that I. I.

[Essie]

Was just thinking just once.

[Rob Morrow]

I think it's a few times. Right. Because there was.

[Essie]

I think it's more than once.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. There's one in the tent, I think, when Ed show. Oh, Ed shows up and there's a storm and you and I are out in the tundra, and then there's. There's one later in the. In the series where there's the gun goes off.

[Jeanine Turner]

I. I don't have to see Him. I don't remember. I do know we had. We had lots of. What's the word? Sensuous scenes together where it could have been implied.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Jeanine Turner]

You might not have seen the follow through. It's like we cut away and go. I think this is probably what's happening here. But the audience just didn't get to see it.

[Essie]

But it was enough to keep us invested in the. Yeah. In your storyline.

[Rob Morrow]

Well done, for sure. I was impressive the way they. They pulled that off. Well, this has been great. Essie. You're such a. It's so nice to have someone. Isn't it fun, Jeanine, having someone who's not part of the show, but she feels like she could have been. We could have cast you somewhere in there, could have had you coming out of the Brick and it would have worked.

[Jeanine Turner]

Exactly. And you certainly have the intellectualism for the show. You know, you certainly have that mark. And by the way, I'd love to read your thesis because I think that that correlation. Tribal and religious and the. And football. Because my thought I would. I'd like to read it if you ever let anybody read it. But it sounds wonderful. My dad was a football player for West Point Military Academy, so. And he was a all star football player in Athens, Texas, at his high school. Oh, wow. Football was like God in our house.

[Essie]

Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

All the time. And if my mother walked in the room and they. The Cowboys fumbled or something, it was my mother's fault.

[Essie]

Fault.

[Jeanine Turner]

Because you walked in the room.

[Essie]

That's great.

[Jeanine Turner]

Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

That's funny.

[Jeanine Turner]

My parents.

[Essie]

There's.

[Jeanine Turner]

There's a play right there. My parents. But yes, Essie, it was a joy to see you again. We can't really remember we crossed paths in the past, but.

[Essie]

I don't know. But this was such a joy and escape. Right. From what a crazy week this is. Has been in the world. In my world of politics. This is so nice to spend an hour talking about something else.

[Jeanine Turner]

Is it?

[Rob Morrow]

Maybe. Maybe you'll come back again.

[Jeanine Turner]

Okay.

[Essie]

I'd love that. I'd love that because I am. I'm watching them in order again because it's just. It's a really good.

[Jeanine Turner]

That's been one of the greatest parts of doing the show is that we have to watch it. And I was watching it this morning and it was just. It's like a Valium, 100%.

[Rob Morrow]

It's like. Yeah.

[Jeanine Turner]

My mother used to always say she would take me to the movies. I lived in New York, 15 tomorrow. And I was in LA at 17 with my mom. And we would go to Westwood Village and go to all these huge movie theaters. And my mom would just always say she loved to go to the movies because it was two hours of Escape.

[Essie]

But this is particular Escape, where it's like, literally turning your dial down. It's so nice. It's not Escape into action and suspense and heart pounding. It's the opposite. It's such an antidote to what's going on. Fun. So I think everyone should watch it.

[Jeanine Turner]

They. They wanted us. They kind of said Rob and I were Hepburn and Tracy. You know, a little bit of that. Remember that, Rob? So that would have been the movies of that. Of that era. Yeah.

[Essie]

Oh, I love that.

[Jeanine Turner]

But I was all. I.

[Commercial Announcer]

We.

[Jeanine Turner]

I was older, so I wasn't seeing Hepar and Tracy movies, obviously. Well, this has been. Essie, great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. And rocks, guys. Yeah, it was so fun. Thank you.

[Essie]

So fun. Thank you.

[Jeanine Turner]

And I'm glad you have a crush on Fleischman so that.

[Essie]

So we can still talk without it being weird.

[Rob Morrow]

And I know. I know what. I know. I know what the SE stands for, so I love having that.

[Essie]

Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

[Jeanine Turner]

You're, like, the only one, I guess, who knows that, right?

[Essie]

Like.

[Jeanine Turner]

Like I was the only one that knew Holly and had a star for a woman that.

[Essie]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jeanine Turner]

Okay, well. Well, thank you. And so next week, we look forward to seeing you. Next week, we're gonna sign off from o' Connell and Fleischman.

[Rob Morrow]

Actually, I think it should be Fleischman o'. Connell.

[Jeanine Turner]

In your dreams, Fleischman.

[Essie]

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.

[Commercial Announcer]

Hi, I'm Wil Wheaton, and I am so excited to tell you about my new podcast series, It's Story Time with Wil Wheaton. You may recognize my name from my acting work in television shows like the Big Bang Theory, Leverage, and Star the Next Generation, or from a movie called Stand By Me. You may recognize my voice from one of the hundreds of audiobooks I've narrated, including number one New York Times bestseller, Ready Player One, John Scalzi's award winning Collapsing Empire trilogy, or even my own best selling memoir, Still Just a Geek. When I'm not reading stories, I am listening to stories. And I was a massive fan of my friend and and mentor LeVar Burton's podcast, LeVar Burton Reads. When he finished his final season, I realized how much I missed it. So I asked him if I could take a shot at picking up where he left off and to my delight, he gave me his blessing and I got started. It's been a long time, a lot of work, and absolutely worth it to bring you incredible stories that I love, pulled from the pages of Uncanny Master magazine, Lightspeed on Spec, and others. You're going to meet authors you don't yet know you love, including some who are being narrated for the very first time. I will take you with me as we travel together through time. I will take you to meet some gods. We will watch people fall in and out of love and more. It's Storytime with Wil Wheaton is available wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you'll join me.

[Jeanine Turner]

What if you love old movies but you're also trying to cut down on your screen time?

[Rob Morrow]

Stop this progress before it is too late.

[Jeanine Turner]

People with blindness or low vision can enjoy films with something called called Audio Description, which turns this it's amazing into this it's amazing. With a flurry of punches, Joe drives.

[Essie]

Gilbert across the ring.

[Jeanine Turner]

Check out Movies for the Blind, a weekly podcast of classic and cult films with no screen required. Subscribe now. Where you get your podcasts.