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Northern Disclosure
S3E5: "The Body in Question" with John Vreeke
01:00:23
Rob Morrow, Janine Turner, and John Vreeke look back at Northern Exposure's “The Body in Question”.
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- [00:00]
John Vreeke
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- [00:11]
Janine Turner
Save yourself money today.
- [00:14]
John Vreeke
Increase your wealth.
- [00:17]
Janine Turner
Customize and save. We save.
- [00:21]
John Vreeke
That may have been too much feeling.
- [00:22]
Janine Turner
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by.
- [00:28]
Rob Morrow
Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. The new Popeyes and Hot Ones menu is fire flavor.
- [00:34]
Janine Turner
Trust me, because I'm about to eat it. That hits right away. Attempt the Popeyes Hot Ones menu in stores.
- [00:40]
John Vreeke
Love that chicken from Popeyes.
- [00:43]
Janine Turner
Limited time in participating US Restaurants. Hello everybody. I'm Janine Turner. Welcome to Northern Disclosure, where my fabulous co host Rob Morrow and I walk through the episode and talk about the stories behind it and reminisce about the good old days with a really amazing show. Once again, I was just, the news was so depressing and I thought, I don't even want to listen to this. I thought, I know, I'll go watch Northern Exposure. And it made me so happy. Rob Mora, welcome to the show.
- [01:23]
Rob Morrow
Thank you. Janine, how you doing today?
- [01:26]
Janine Turner
I'm fine. I'm just fine.
- [01:28]
Rob Morrow
I, I get your point. You know, the show is a kind of salve, you know, for the hard times and definitely takes us to another place. And you know, what's in what I was thinking about, Janine, sometimes I the episodes, there's aspects of the shows that are not my favorite, you know, there's parts of stuff that I don't either it's something I've done or either writing or the directing or something that I don't. But almost every single time by the end of the show, I am completely transported and moved. And in this particular episode, that ending, I felt so inspired, you know, and moved. And that's, I think the show has this amazing way of pulling it together at the end, you know, and in this one I really felt that with.
- [02:26]
Janine Turner
A wonderful sense of intellect, philosophy, intellectual, you know, stimulation, quirk, romance. I happen to love this episode, by the way, is the body in question. It was written by Henry Brummell, who was a fabulous writer, went on to win all kinds of awards and work. They stole him away to I'll Fly Away, which was always a little resentful of those type of things. But he was one of our edit story editors, but also one of our top notch writers and it was directed by David Carson. And our guest today, by the way, is John Vrikey who associate producer, but also was in charge of the extras on the set and the background actions. And that was pivotal. Pivotal aspect of the show. Talk about collaboration and painting on a painting to bring it all to fruition. But, Rob, I thought, first of all, your performance in this show was excellent. You had quite the arc. And I wanted to go down into the nitty gritty of the show a little bit. I thought this show was so profound, and I have all these lines about it that I do want to share some of them because. Because of the Prof. The pr. I thought the writing was profound. And you're acting in the arc at the end and at the end when you. The ending when, you know, Ezekiel came and all of that. But at the end when you and I had that little moment and then you smiled and.
- [03:49]
Rob Morrow
You mean Elijah. You mean Elijah, right?
- [03:51]
Janine Turner
Yeah. What I say. Ezekiel. Elijah. Right. Elijah came. Thank you. But at the end, you and I have this moment and you smiled and had this kind of electricity. And I thought there's really nothing better than when Rob smiles and brings on the kind of charm. But it was also an arc of settlement, I think, for what your character. So your character traversed such a wide variety of emotions, but we all did. And I have specific memories of this show was philosophy, philosophical and talked about the things I love. I love philosophy, history. And do you. Do you change history? And there are lines here. The truth. This is. Came from John Corbett, who I thought looked like he was right out of France the whole time.
- [04:37]
Rob Morrow
He did. He looked great.
- [04:39]
Janine Turner
We might need to read. You want. You want to read about the show before I start talking more about it?
- [04:43]
Rob Morrow
Johnny's such a star. You know, you just look at him.
- [04:45]
Janine Turner
And it's like, well, they had him dressed. They had him dressed in that kind of open collar thing. I think they worked it. They made him look like right out of Miss.
- [04:53]
Rob Morrow
Absolutely, I'm sure. Okay, so here's a synopsis. The audience likes this. And by the way, if you are listening to us, you can also. And you want to watch us, you can on the. On the Northern Disclosure YouTube channel and, you know, hit subscribe because that lets us know you're paying attention. We love getting all your notes and. And, and responses to the episodes. It means a lot to us. But here's the synopsis. While fishing on no Name Fork, Chris stumbles across a human body frozen into a block of ice. He retrieves it, along with the man's presumed belongings. His boots, his hat, his watch, and his diary, the latter revealing him to be of French descent and containing evidence that Napoleon was not at Waterloo, but rather in Alaska with his companion, Pierre, who had been frozen for 176 years. While Pierre is stored in Holling's walk in freezer, he causes disturbances in town. Joel starts thinking about history. Maurice dreams of a new business scheme. Holling curses his genetic background, and Shelly worries about fertility because Maurice is busy trying to make money off of Pierre. Ed takes a job at Ruth Ann's store, and she helps him through an artistic crisis. He sent his film script to someone in Hollywood for evaluation. It comes back rejected, and Ed feels dejected. But through Ruthan's telling about her own sons, he regains his confidence. In the end, some Indians steal Pierre out of the walk in, smashing Maurice's latest scheme.
- [06:31]
Janine Turner
Beautiful scene at the end with the music coming up and they're off in the canoe, and then, you know, Marilyn is there watching it secretly in the trees. That was also awesome. But I want to go through some of these lines because I think, as I do, first of all, the Ruthanne and Ed Chigliak moments were terrific. But he goes, would you like some coffee? I have instant coffees of the world, which I just thought was really sweet, but I didn't know. It's really kind of fun, too, that Maggie threw out that she spent a year at the Sorbonne in France.
- [06:59]
Rob Morrow
I love hearing that. Wait, that's interesting. Like. So is that the only time it's referenced that you were at the son that.
- [07:06]
Janine Turner
That I can remember.
- [07:08]
Rob Morrow
Right. Again, it's these, these contradictions in the characters, which. These little revelations. Also, Holling, you know, there's a lot of revelations. There's Joel, you know, that Joel's family was from Poland, that hauling, you know, was of, of a blue blood of French descent. You know, these, these aspects that we don't know, that we keep hearing about these characters.
- [07:29]
Janine Turner
Oh, yeah, and that scene, we're jumping around here a little bit, but that scene. David Carson directed it, and I loved his directing because you got wide shots, but you got these amazing close ups. And, you know, I like the. I like both. I like all types of shots, but I always like to make sure there are close ups. And I didn't really get any because your actors always look at this until the end, which was an interesting choice, and it works, actually. But that scene with Holling that you have, where he is revealing to you that he was from French aristocracy, and he's so ashamed about the whole thing, just simply played with over the shoulders shots and close ups that's one of the rarely does that happen. We're always moving, walking, talking, cooking, lifting, doing we. And that. It's one of the rare moments that I remember for seeing that long where you were actually. Did you catch. You know, y' all were just close ups on your faces. And boy, was. Was John Column once again amazing in. In the Deliverance. Like, he's just, like, right off the theater and the things that were said there. And Rob, my favorite close ups of you were with Elijah. And I loved that no one else could see him, but you could. There you go with that mysticism again. But your eyes. And once again, those were close ups that just played in close ups. There was. Nobody walked around. Just stood right there. And I think that plays beautifully in the midst of all the action. And I think a lot of times we were just always in action and we didn't have a lot of time for those delicious close ups. But those close ups on you with Elijah, your eyes were just, like, doughy and big, and you were relaxed, and it was simple, and yet it was so profound. You had a real innocence and eagerness about you in that scene.
- [09:17]
Rob Morrow
Thank you. I mean, I really like David Carson as a director. I remember responding to him right away, and he. I wished he had done more. I think he had done three episodes. But he was very specific. He was from England. I think he was from the theater. And he just could really talk the talk as well as create these environments, as you said. You know, it was. The blocking wasn't contrived. It was innate to the scenes. You know, it served the scenes. And he had a great touch. And I also just want to point out that it's the first time I think we have a real back. We get Ruth Ann's backstory, you know, and she becomes her character steps out of the store and becomes, you know, we start to see her, and she really emerges as a real integral part of the town.
- [10:07]
Janine Turner
Yeah, Sid. Yeah. I really loved that they would just let the camera rest on those kind of. And the scenes, the. The level of dialogue, which. I do want to read some of this. The dialogue was so rich and so complicated. I have one of. One of Colin John Colum's Holling's lines here. And I felt for you, Rob, knowing how you struggled, you know, with all these. Having to say all these terms and whatnot and. Okay, so here's some of the lines I like. Right. I love the line rain on your cadaver. I thought that was really funny. That was in there somewhere. I'm not even exactly sure. He talks about. You're from New York. Maurice does. And he says the innate. With your New Yorker, with innate skepticism, natural sense of supremacy, of superiority in the way of the world. I thought that was funny. Another line was the most crucial piece of equipment in any mission is the man in charge. I thought that was a profound line. The whole question.
- [11:07]
Rob Morrow
We could substitute man or woman.
- [11:09]
Janine Turner
Yeah. Of course, science used generically. Right. Was. Was Napoleon really at Waterloo is just a great concept.
- [11:18]
John Vreeke
I love.
- [11:19]
Janine Turner
If you can't count on history, where does it end? This was your dialogue, Rob. Did Washington cross the Delaware? Did Joshua never fight the battle of Jericho? And so it talks about that. And then. Then the end of the line was. It's like opening a trap door to oblivion. Great lines like opening the trap door to oblivion. Very, very po.
- [11:49]
Rob Morrow
It's really the. You know, it explores the stories we tell ourselves, you know, and I mean, they say that history is. Is written by the victors. It's not always fact, which is. You know, that's the. The kind of dialectic argument that in the. In the church between Chris and. And Joel, you know, they talk about what's fact and what's truth and what's. What's the difference. And I think that's what the show explores a little bit. And. And also about ancestry and what we carry through us. That's a big theme in the show. You know, I.
- [12:29]
Janine Turner
There's a line there.
- [12:30]
Rob Morrow
Yeah. He said that we are. We are just our genes, you know, and that this information that we carry from history comes through us, gets expressed, you know, in who we are. And those are profound, as you said. It was profound. Those are the profound ideas at the crux of this particular story.
- [12:50]
Janine Turner
I have that line of John columns. Very tricky line to say, by the way, which he did masterfully, of course. We are all just genes. Joel. Think about just Jeans Joel. Those three J's, the alliteration. We are all just jeans Joel.
- [13:05]
Rob Morrow
Right. Because he felt that he was, you know, a victim of his gene pool and that it would. That if he. He needed to deny it, otherwise he can carry on in some of the horrible things that his ancestors did. So he was in denial about it, which he has to kind of reconcile. That's his story in the episode.
- [13:25]
John Vreeke
Yes.
- [13:26]
Janine Turner
And then. I just want to read three more. Robin, I'm finished. Maggie has a great line to Fleischman. When you're in angst, she says, you come here with a limited grasp of the world. What's wrong with doing that? Oh, what's wrong with doing that? No, challenging that. Something like that. It was a good line. In other words, you come here with a limited. What's. What's wrong with losing that? I guess it's not really losing, but maybe that's what it says. And then at the end, with the great monologues that I figured you probably wrote some of this down that John. John Corbett, Chris in the Morning was doing the truth. Twists and turns. The facts remain the same.
- [14:03]
Rob Morrow
There you go.
- [14:04]
Janine Turner
Truth is beauty. Beauty is truth. So it would. I don't know. I couldn't get enough of the show. I thought that was.
- [14:11]
Rob Morrow
Well, he reads from Proust at the end, which is, as you know, deep into memory, as you can get. Proust writes with such, you know, endless detail about the past. It's from a book called remembrance of Things Past and talk about profound. It says it's really profound about memory. And, you know, it's. The show brings up a lot of cool ideas, and that's one. And it brings them together in a way. I like the way it comes full circle and that Pierre is returned to where he belongs. So I want to talk about. So John Vrecke, aside from being just a great guy, was instrumental in. In, as Janine said, painting the canvas that was Northern Exposure. He was responsible for all the background players, the. The quote extras, which there are numerous. And they, they define the landscape of the show. And sometimes they're unsung and sometimes they get their moments. But he, he. I remember how hard he worked. He would have to go out and find people and get. And, and, and it really enriched our show. And he did such a good. Beloved by everyone in the company that eventually Rob Thompson, one of the executive producers, made him an associate producer. And then he went on after the show to direct a lot of Theater in D.C. he was at the. The Woolly Mammoth Theater Company and the Mosaic Theater Company and did a lot of new works and, and was a real important presence in the D.C. theater scene. And now he lives back in Seattle, where he was when we were doing the show. And I think without further ado, we're going to bring him out.
- [16:09]
Janine Turner
John.
- [16:10]
John Vreeke
Hey, Janine. Hey, Rob.
- [16:13]
Rob Morrow
John, it's so good to see you. Thanks for coming and hanging out with us.
- [16:17]
John Vreeke
Well, you know, thanks to you guys. I got to tell you something. For 30 years, I mean, you know, I didn't think much about Northern Exposure. For five years we sat, we worked and worked and worked, and that was our lives. And then suddenly it was done. And then we Went on with our lives in all sorts of different directions. And then. And so I didn't think about it that much. Oh, every once in a while, I was always proud of it. People said, well, you know, what's on your resume? What did you do? Well, I, you know, I used to work on Northern Exposure. And now you say that to kids and they go, oh, yeah, my grandparents used to watch that. I'm just amazed by this. But I had no idea until you got ahold of me at the beginning of this week, Jeanine. I go, what the hell is all this about? So I go on YouTube and I see these. I watched the whole interview you did with Rob Thompson because Rob and I were good buddies. And then I watched the one with Josh Brand because that was very informative for me. I didn't know so much. And Josh is, man, what a smart man. And by the way, he and I are exactly the same age. I may be like one year older than Josh is. And I watched the one with Cynthia, and I particularly watched the one with Elaine, because I'm going, I wonder if my memory of how she got cast in the show lines up with hers. Because I thought, I'll bet you they're gonna ask her about that.
- [17:42]
Rob Morrow
Did it line up?
- [17:43]
John Vreeke
Yeah. Yeah. Well, my timeline's a little bit different, but, you know, memory is weird. But yes, it lined up. She was sitting in the lobby having delivered her mother to Patti Callis office to put her on tape. And Patti was in the back working with Armenia, you know, just having her recite some lines.
- [18:03]
Rob Morrow
Patti was the local. The local Seattle casting director, Pat.
- [18:08]
John Vreeke
Patty was responsible, you know, for hiring somebody to do the extra. She hired me to do the extras and to be a stand in, by the way. So those first eight episodes, I was running around trying to get people for the shows, and on days there were no extras, I was one of the stand ins.
- [18:26]
Rob Morrow
Oh, I don't remember that. Who were you standing in for? Anyone in particular?
- [18:28]
John Vreeke
Well, I was the utility stand in because we had a stand in for you. We had a stand in for Maggie, and then we needed a third stand in.
- [18:36]
Rob Morrow
Most audience will know this, but just in case they don't, a stand in is someone who. Because when they're doing the lighting, sometimes it's a lot of time. It takes a lot of time. And the actors have to kind of conserve their energy or take a minute to kind of get focused. And so they bring in someone who has the same kind of coloring and size and they stand in as they set up the shots.
- [18:58]
John Vreeke
Right? Yeah. And so I just want to express. So I went down this rabbit hole, I started watching these episodes. I watched this question. I had to watch it twice because the first time through I'm going, whoa, I missed so much. And my big question for you guys is, do you think 2025 theater, I mean, television audiences get this kind of rich, rich in depth stuff, or do you think it would even work today?
- [19:27]
Rob Morrow
Well, one of the things about the show is that it can appeal to all kind of levels of intellect, if you will. You know, you don't have to be a histor or a philosopher or a poet to understand the universal aspects of the themes of the show. And I think that's why ultimately it was successful back when it first aired and why it continues to be. Because it can appeal to different frames of reference. You know what I mean?
- [19:56]
Janine Turner
It appeals to the heart, the soul. Right. And the mind. And so whether you're looking for an intellectual stimulation, if you're looking for kind of a wisdom, sort of religious, kind of theological, that's there, or if you. If you just want to listen with. Emotionally, with your heart and how the.
- [20:16]
Rob Morrow
Characters feel or humor or may, and.
- [20:18]
Janine Turner
It makes you laugh and then there's the sexuality there. I just think anyone, they can pick and choose sort of whatever they want to do.
- [20:24]
Rob Morrow
I want to point, I want to just say something before we jump in about John. You know, John was so important for an aspect of my career that I don't know if a lot of people know about. But this week we. We tape this show sometimes about a month in advance. But this week, the great Robert Redford passed. On September 16th. I was thinking about you, Rob and John when. When I was asked to audition for that movie, Quiz Show, I did this movie that Robert Rector directed and he became a mentor for me. And when I was asked to audition, I couldn't because I was shooting the show and they asked me to go on tape, which is now kind of the norm of how actors audition. But back then it wasn't. And I didn't know how to do it. And I went to John Vreeke and I said, can you help me? And we put together a camera in the conference room and of the studio and John taped and read with me and I ended up getting the part. And I just wanted to say, you know, that that changed my life. And so. And still reverberates in my life. So.
- [21:25]
John Vreeke
Yeah, thank you. I'm not seeing any residuals, but good, I'm glad.
- [21:39]
Janine Turner
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- [22:36]
John Vreeke
But this show, when I watched it, I was so. At first I thought, wow, just got to use your brains to keep up with what's going on here. By the time you get to Joel's dream, you know, he's fallen asleep in the freezer and his great, great, great grandparents come in this ultra orthodox Jewish family. And then who is it?
- [23:08]
Rob Morrow
Isaiah Elijah.
- [23:11]
Janine Turner
Okay, we've said Ezekiel Elijah and clearly.
- [23:15]
Rob Morrow
We'Re not dealing with any Jews except for me.
- [23:17]
John Vreeke
Yeah, right. No Jews here. Except. But what I want to say is that, you know, what you're saying about the multi, how the show can appeal to so many different layers of people and within individuals, the emotional, the intellect. I was completely captivated by it and you know, I was there when it was made, but it was so long ago that I almost completely forgot about it. The first scene and the last scene were really second unit scenes and where it was just me, David and Charleston. Charleston. Jim Charleston was the ad on that. And we brought John out and then in the end we brought Elaine out and the three Native Americans in the canoe. And you know, you talked about David Carson. I remember David being one of the older directors that came in and you know, I was there for all 110 episodes. So I met all these directors and I found David to be more laid back, more easy to get along with and didn't take himself quite as seriously. He and Jim Charleston used to joke about everything and it always kept a bit of a lighter touch. I don't know if that was your experience, but that was mine.
- [24:39]
Rob Morrow
It was just a very calm. There was no histrionics. It was just a kind of calm presence.
- [24:46]
Janine Turner
You can see that. I think as we've been talking about in the show, I think a lot of times directors come in and they want to prove themselves. They want to do something really extraordinary and different, or they just want to be more modern about it. And the way these close ups were punched in at very pivotal times of the storyline. Just the way Rob and Elijah stood there in the forefront with the family in the background and had just. They just stood there. That. That's sort of an old fashioned form of filmmaking. And since he was older, that's probably why it was a little bit like that, which quite frankly I like. But that just. Just goes to show there's something to be said for wisdom and age.
- [25:28]
Rob Morrow
As I get older, we'll tell ourselves. You can call me and tell me that every once in a while, Janine.
- [25:34]
John Vreeke
Yeah, yeah. So I have so many thoughts. You know, when we started out, because I developed the background, I had to hire all these extras and Josh and John came to me and said, we're in Seattle. One of the advantages of being in Seattle is that we can get a much more complex set of extras. Not from central casting. Do not hire wannabe actors. We're not interested. 50% of the background needs to be Native American. 50% needs to be, you know, guys who work in the logging industry. So not only did I, I mean, we went to reservations. Elaine Miles was instrumental in introducing me to some of her acquaintances in Pendleton. They came from as far as Pendleton, Oregon and Yakima, Washington to be extras when we needed extras in Rosslyn. So we had this incredible mixture. We also had a very small group, I would say four or five that were kind of regulars that were homeless people in Seattle.
- [26:45]
Janine Turner
Really?
- [26:47]
John Vreeke
Yeah. Well, we didn't tell people that, but Ross always. I said, okay, go pick them up, bring them in. Because we'd given them $50 a day. We're feeding them as much food as they want. And it was always good food. The caterers were great and they took ownership. And that's what separates out, I think, the Northern Exposure background from most shows.
- [27:09]
Rob Morrow
Wait, so whose idea was it to do the home to get homeless people? Yours?
- [27:13]
John Vreeke
Oh, probably. I don't remember. I guess I must have just met somebody who knew somebody and, you know, I would always say, okay, you want to be on the show? Can you send me a Polaroid picture of yourself? Because it was all visual, you know, and every once in a while we had to send somebody home early because maybe they had been drinking or something. So it wasn't always perfect, but it created an atmosphere with the Native Americans and all these small town folks from upper the coastal areas of Washington state of owning the show. They were very, very proud of It.
- [27:58]
Rob Morrow
Yeah. And their faces were so great. And I think when we talked about that episode where Ed made the short film, which episode was that? Janine Anim.
- [28:06]
Janine Turner
Animals Are Us.
- [28:07]
Rob Morrow
Animals Are Us. And at the end of it, you know, he has that film and there's they, they. He cuts to all these people and the, you know, people. Inhabitants of Sicily that were faces that I'd never seen. They weren't even regulars in our extras pool. And yet they were so distinct and it just. The beauty of the, the face, you know, of it was captured, you know, and, and, and how much a story is told in someone's lines in their face. They were just always great. Wherever you looked on the show, there was something interesting going on.
- [28:43]
Janine Turner
The town halls, which I love. The community gets together in the town halls. We had one in this particular episode which was, it was just magnificent. Everybody standing up and giving a little sort of Patrick Henry speech and the turns of people's minds. I remember before we get to the, the, to. To the, the characters in, in the room that you cast, I remember sitting there thinking, this is a big jump for Maggie, right? Who the whole time was like, let's just go with it. It's so interesting. Why can't you open up, you know, Rob Fleischmann? Why do you bring all. Plug it, you know, why do you bring all these, you know, regular, you're not willing to be open minded type of thing. And then. So she's sitting there and then on like a dime, I stand up and I say, yeah, you know, maybe we shouldn't. Whereas. But I. There was a wide shot where you did kind of. I tried to play it a little bit. You could see maybe my mind thinking about it before I stood up. But everybody in the course of the show sort of had a kind of an arc of their feeling about the entire thing. But the way everybody stands up at those town halls and Rob, you stood up at the end and everybody. And then of course, you've got Maurice there saying incredibly, you know, stark things. And you know, I brought. Earlier in the show there was a. Oh, was it in that? He goes, well, you know, we have a Jewish doctor. And it was just like so, so stark. But then you cut to the beautiful heritage of the Poland Jewish family and the great grandfather of Fleischmanns and all that. So it was sort of setting it up in a way, kind of emphasizing, teeing it up. But the people that you had talk to us about the people you cast and what in, in that room, it was very full what do we have like 50 people in there? And what was that like to direct those people at the time?
- [30:40]
John Vreeke
Well, you know, you're dealing with people who first off probably never even thought about being extras on anything. I remember going to a number of reservations up in Marysville, which is just north of here, and there was a reservation and I had set up an appointment to meet the elders and anybody else who wanted to come in. And here's this guy who comes in and talks to a crowd of Native Americans saying, okay, we're making this show called Northern Exposure. And they said, Ryder. They were very skeptical, very. They said, uh huh. Going to make fun of the Indians, cowboys and Indians. Going to make fun of us, are you? And I said, well, from what I've read, because we hadn't even started yet, what I've read, no, it actually is going to turn out to portray the Native Americans in a very, very positive light. And I think that's true. I think Northern Exposure is one of the first shows that did that. And you know, they. So you get $50 a day, you get the $50 for waiting, you do the acting for free.
- [31:47]
Rob Morrow
Was it that much, John? I always. Why do I think it was $30?
- [31:50]
John Vreeke
It was $50.
- [31:51]
Rob Morrow
It was 50.
- [31:52]
John Vreeke
Okay, it was 50. Yeah, yeah. And if an extra got a little feature, they usually bumped it up to 100. But, but so you asked me how, how that works. So they would come into the extras room and I would do a quick, you know, so being an extra, like for instance, if you're in the background in the brick, you can't really make any noise. And yet you've got to be animated. You've got to look like you're having a conversation with your friend, like you're eating your hamburger and you'll be given food and stuff, but you've got to keep it very quiet because the sound required needed to be very clean. And then, you know, in post production in la, they usually loop people's voices in, you know, just to keep, to make that reality and they embrace that fully. And then for a scene like the town hall scene that you're just describing, you know, that day I knew that they were going to be more featured than the usual just generic background scene. And I don't know, I guess I just went through my files and I found the people that. By then, because we're in the third season now, I had gotten to know everybody. I knew every one of them by name. And I was. And you know, sometimes it's like, who's available who can come in that day. And so I think I just ended up picking the people that seemed to be most interesting. And then the ads often would say, hey, John, could you move that person over there? Or to the second assistant to Bob Lozier.
- [33:36]
Rob Morrow
And they were providing their own clothes, too, or they got clothes.
- [33:40]
John Vreeke
They were always requested. They were always told what to wear, what not to wear. And so most of the time, the clothes would come in, but then the wardrobe department, Mimi and Nina would go check them out. And if something was like. Like too fluorescent green or something, they would. You know, they had a whole rack of extras, clothes, in case extras came in with the wrong thing.
- [34:03]
Janine Turner
And makeup, too. They had the hair and makeup. Had to look at them as well.
- [34:07]
John Vreeke
They had to look at him just to make sure that we're not doing anything that, you know, would call attention to itself. But. But they didn't get hair and makeup. They. They were not made up.
- [34:17]
Janine Turner
No, no, I'm not. I'm not saying that.
- [34:19]
John Vreeke
Yeah, but they. You're right, Janine. They. When we started out in the. I think it was in the pilot or maybe the second episode. It must have been the second because Josh directed the first one, right? I don't think Josh directed the second one.
- [34:34]
Rob Morrow
No, Josh directed only one.
- [34:36]
John Vreeke
Right. Just that. Just the pilot. So I think it was the second one. And I was still learning. I mean, I. I had never been on a film set before that first day. I was on Northern Exposure, so I was.
- [34:46]
Rob Morrow
When did you come out of the theater in Seattle? That was your background?
- [34:50]
John Vreeke
Yeah, well, I'd come out. I had lived in. I was a resident director at the Alley Theater in Houston for about 10 years. Then I had moved to Seattle, and I was trying to start a career in Seattle, and we were both. Anyway, I ended up working for Patty Callas, and that's how I got this job. So there's a request for a Native American. Now, Native Americans can look like you and me. They're called urban Native Americans, where the haircuts are very contemporary, or the more traditional Native Americans, of which Elaine Miles part. Where the men wear. Keep their hair long and sometimes wear traditional clothes. So this director wanted a Native American, and I brought him in, and he goes, this guy doesn't look Native American. So he went to the makeup trailer. They put on some horrible wig with braids. All that was missing was, like, a feather and brought him to the set. And somebody, I forget who, went, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what we're doing here. That's not. You know, because the show was trying to figure out. You know, it evolved as time went on, just like Elaine's character grew because they learned that they could give her some more lines. Just like Peg Phillips. You know, you mentioned Peg Phillips in this episode. I don't know if you knew this, but Peg just started out as a featured extra to sit behind Peg, who played Ruth Ann. Ruth Ann, right, sorry, Ruth Ann. And she was already, I would say, almost 70 years old, having just graduated from the University of Washington Theater Department, and she was a featured extra. She might have had a line or two. She went home and wrote longhand pages and pages and pages of her own bio and gave it to the producers down south, Josh and John and Andy and Diane. I think they took this thing and they used aspects of the film.
- [36:50]
Rob Morrow
I didn't know that. That's brilliant.
- [36:53]
John Vreeke
But it's also. Peg was damn smart, wasn't she? Because she wanted to. She wanted to be a regular on that show. Right.
- [37:00]
Rob Morrow
But I also think she probably was doing it just because she wanted it to. What she was doing to have meaning. And it just shows that if you just invest in what you're doing, it can lead, you know, and. And what a fascinating. I had no idea about that. I mean, I didn't even know. I thought she was just cast as. As a. As a. As a regular, as Ruthanne. But she was an extra at first. Basically.
- [37:21]
John Vreeke
She really started out as a featured extra the very first time she was on. But it very quickly evolved because they liked her a lot. They. They actually had told me what they were looking for was something a little bit more maternal, a more granny type with, you know, your little permed white hairdo to sit there. And then Peg. And I thought, well, you should take a look at Peg. And they did. And so that's how Ruth Ann evolved in the show.
- [37:50]
Rob Morrow
It's amazing how much influence you have on the show. You know, it's just amazing. It's, I think, your own song for so much of what is great about the show.
- [37:59]
Janine Turner
But, you know, John, it's really fascinating to me to hear these stories because you sort of created the kind of template, you know, the kind of. Of the. The. The aspect of the painting that brought the richness and the. The. The. The integral part of the culture and. And whatnot to. To the show. And you just did a superb job. Not to mention, there were a lot of. A lot of shows where they had to walk and say, go on action. And you. You choreographed all that in the background. So you had the director for us, but then everybody who might be sitting, and there were a lot of shows where they're walking. Remember that show when, when John Corbett, everybody wanted to kiss John Corbett, you know, you had a lot of people walking by saying, hey, hey. Hi, Chris. Hi, Chris. Hi, Chris.
- [38:40]
Rob Morrow
That's mainly the ads department, but I.
- [38:42]
John Vreeke
Think, yeah, Rob is correct. I mean, I always delivered the extras. And then the second AD primarily was the one who operated the background. Rarely would a director actually step in unless he was bothered by something or other.
- [39:00]
Janine Turner
But you were around a lot.
- [39:02]
John Vreeke
I knew that if I could make myself useful beyond just, you know, delivering the numbers of extras they needed, that I could. Well, I would learn a lot because again, as I said, I had never been on a film set and I learned so much about camera acting, about how a show is put together, how a show is shot. And I remember right in those first episodes that Bob scotus, remember that producer at the beginning, we were standing in. In Rosslyn and I was standing next to him and Bob Lozier and the first AD, whose name I can't remember, this is before Pat McKee and before Jim Charleston. And they were running around trying to make things happen. And SCOTUS looked at me and says, well, help them out. And I went, okay. And I went in there and I. And I became their helper.
- [39:55]
Rob Morrow
But that's a great thing. Again, it's the same thing like Peg. And it's a great, It's a great lesson for people that want to be involved in show business. Learn. It's like, get yourself around a set and be helpful and it could lead to good things.
- [40:09]
John Vreeke
Yeah, be helpful, learn. I mean, I was terrified the first few episodes that I would do something really stupid because they, you know, like walk into a scene as it was rolling or something. I was just terrified because I. Because it was all so new to me. And just even learning stuff like Rob and Janine, you both know, it's very distracting to have somebody in your eye line while you're, you know, focused on being there and being as real and in the moment as you possibly can. And then suddenly there's a well meaning extra standing on the outskirts looking at the scene where they're taking their focus. And it's just stuff like that that, that these extras embraced. They learned about it. And so they were always very respectful of the.
- [40:59]
Janine Turner
That adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who.
- [41:12]
John Vreeke
Navigates life on their own terms effortlessly.
- [41:16]
Janine Turner
They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions.
- [41:25]
John Vreeke
They know the rules, but behave as.
- [41:27]
Janine Turner
If they do not exist. The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.
- [41:35]
Rob Morrow
Upgrade your laundry routine with a durable and reliable Maytag laundry pair at Lowe's. Like the new Maytag washer and dryer with performance enhanced stain fighting power designed to cut through serious dirt and grime. And what's great is this laundry pair is in stock and ready for delivery when you need it the most. Don't miss out. Shop Maytag in store or online today at Lowe's. Let's talk about a little bit about the episode and some of your observations per, you know, the background, but also in terms of. Of how the story affected you, watching it again and what you noticed.
- [42:24]
John Vreeke
So, you know, I think you said it in one of the interviews. I forget which one. Maybe with Rob or with Josh. But Northern Exposure can affect you in a very, very personal way. So what I took from this episode is it was all about identity. It was about Fleischmann's identity as a Jewish person and how his heritage informs who he is. It was about Darren's identity as a filmmaker that was so challenged. And he, you know, I am a filmmaker. Okay. That's my identity. But it got challenged. And then he managed to break free of that. It just. It was so great. Holling's identity as a horrible, horrible person because of his background. The whole city's identity as a town that embraces their culture and respects their culture, as opposed to the identity that Maurice was fighting for, which was, you know, putting this frozen Frenchman in some freezer in the middle of Main street and then sell tickets, creating a much bigger. I mean, that was what Maurice was always about, trying to get. Trying to make Sicily, Alaska, a much, much bigger metropolis.
- [44:01]
Rob Morrow
And also, how could he monetize any situation?
- [44:04]
John Vreeke
Yeah. So I was just moved by all that and how all those three storylines connected up and. Yeah, particularly the ultra Orthodox family. Do you want a little story about how we almost lost that family?
- [44:25]
Rob Morrow
Absolutely. Wait, it's a real family.
- [44:27]
John Vreeke
I'm gonna. Oh, boy. Memories is a weird thing. I think it was. Or a combination of a few families. So I got the order. You know, as time went on, I mostly focused on special things like that, the extras for the. For the Seder, for the Passover dinner that Joel observes with that. What was that great actor's name that played?
- [44:53]
Rob Morrow
I was trying to look it up.
- [44:54]
John Vreeke
Alan. Alan.
- [44:56]
Rob Morrow
Alan. He was so great. Like, he's not on the IMDb. And he was. I remember him from my childhood of watching him. He was just great actor.
- [45:03]
John Vreeke
Yeah. So I went out and found them. I forget how I found it them, but they were ultra, ultra orthodox. For real. Like really, really real. But I talked him into it and said, the show is wonderful and you'll be well represented. And here's the storyline. I always told extras a storyline. So instead of just getting thrown into a scene, they. What the hell's going on? They knew the context of what they were doing. It just. Just made it a little richer for them. And so here's this ultra orthodox family. They were the first on the call sheet that day. And I don't know if you remember this, Rob, but they came in at like five in the morning because hair and makeup had to work with them. They didn't dress like that, you know, Joni and Rebecca and Mimi and all of them had to put them together so that. So they got an extra early call. I got there at five in the morning too, to sort of, you know, oversee. I always hand out the little sides that you get for the scenes, but they weren't prepared because it was too early in the morning and there wasn't an assistant there yet. So I went, oh, screw it. And I got my own script, which I scribble on and write notes on, and I made copies of my script to hand to all of the parents and the children.
- [46:26]
Rob Morrow
It's amazing. I mean, your dedication is so beautiful because it really informed the end product. It's. So you went to such. You went so far to make sure that people understood what they were participating in.
- [46:39]
John Vreeke
Right. So in this case, you know how a scene ends halfway down a page and then instead of they. They start the next scene. The next scene was Maurice and you. And Maurice, he comes in and he's in his bathrobe. And in the production meeting for this whole thing with Shawn Markland, he and I were joking around. What's Maurice doing? His bathrobe.
- [47:01]
Rob Morrow
Shawn Marklin was our great prop master the first two seasons.
- [47:06]
John Vreeke
And he said something obscene and I wrote it down. I'm not going to tell you what he said. I won't do that. But I wrote it down in pencil or in pen on my script. Not thinking ahead, I handed this script to the kids. To the children. The head guy goes up to the director and he shows him this and he says, here, see that? See that there? See that there? If he's going to do that, then we can't be in the Show. So they almost walked. And the director calls Rob Thompson over. And I'm walking over going, oh my God. And I just come clean. I just say I am so sorry. And I'm running around getting all the scripts out of the kids hands and I'm saying, I'm so sorry, please don't go away. That was entirely just an inside thing with me and my colleagues and it was stupid and I should never have made a copy of this. And I explained the whole thing and they stayed. But I don't know how you. If you knew how close we were to that.
- [48:12]
Rob Morrow
I kind of vaguely remember vaguely something going on with them, but it was beautifully shot, that scene. And they were. And they were all so interesting and their faces. It was a. And it's a powerful moment, you know. And you, you know, Janine was talking about the way, you know, he shot that in such a, you know, it's a. Basically a wide shot with the two of us on each sides of the camera in, in a kind of closer to the lens. But it's such a. It's so cinematic as opposed to the standard kind of television.
- [48:44]
John Vreeke
Yeah, well, it was, it was a. Not a flashback. It was a dream sequence. And I thought it contributed to that feeling of being a dream sequence.
- [48:53]
Janine Turner
The wonderful actor that was in it, it with you, Rob, I was trying to look up his name.
- [48:58]
Rob Morrow
It was Alan something. He was great.
- [49:01]
Janine Turner
And I think when. Rob, you're a fabulous, wonderful actor, obviously the man who played Elijah was John Column is. And just the fact. And then we had our little interplay like that at the very end of the show. But I'm not putting myself necessarily in that category of a great actor. But when you have great actors, you can just let the camera sit there, there, you know, and, and just let it play on their faces and let the actors do what they do best. And I think sometimes there's so much noise in movie making now, moving cameras, action, cutting back and forth really quickly that you lose just the storytelling of through, through the actors and that sense of humanity. And I also want to say that when we're talking about the, the scope of the show and what was beautiful about the show. Show, there was something that everybody did in the town. They all listened to one another. Everybody had a different point of view about it. Well, I want to do this. Well, I want to do this. Well, it's this. When I believe it's this. Well, we shouldn't do that. Well, we shouldn't do this. Nope. Everybody had a town hall. They listened to each other. They grew from it. They didn't shut everybody down. They. They allowed each other to. Like you were talking about the dialectic, you know, which the philosopher Hegel talks about, to kind of. Kind of have this dialogue that moves everybody in the end to a higher state of enlightenment. And we certainly are lacking that in our society today. And I think that's one of the reasons it's so nice to go to Northern Exposure. Because you can. You can just be in this place where. Where people may say weird things and do weird things. But in this particular episode, everyone had their differing point of view, but there was a synop. There was this kind of a synthesis at the end where people.
- [50:43]
Rob Morrow
I just got the actor's name. It was Alan Miller. Who played Alan Miller.
- [50:47]
John Vreeke
Alan Miller.
- [50:49]
Janine Turner
I'm glad. Thanks, Rob.
- [50:50]
John Vreeke
I take your point about everybody listening. There's a room full of many of them, Native Americans. And again, this goes to the point of creating such a positive image in our television show. That 25 million people see every week about the Native Americans, that they're smart enough to sit in that room and engage in the kind of back and forth that Chris in the Morning is having with Dr. Fleischman is having with Maurice. And then Peg's interjections are hysterical. You know, they always gave her these kinds of really heady images to interject. And. And so I thought that was great. And then you talked about the humor. I just wanted to get. I mean, a lot of your lines that you wrote. I wrote them too, so I'm not going to repeat them. But when Cynthia, when Shelley comes into your office, plunks her butt down on your exam table and says, you need to check me out because I think my womb is barren. And then you say, okay, we bring Holling in. We'll do some testing, hauling. No, no, no. And. And you say, well, you know, we have to check things out. And she says. And I forget exactly how it went, but she says something like, oh, you know, Dr. Fleischman, I've been around sperm a lot. Who else but who else but Shelley, in all her innocence, can say a line like that without any other innuendo of any of what exactly that means? But it was his. It's hysterical. It was so funny.
- [52:38]
Janine Turner
She had another great line where she said, oh, well, we've had frozen people in the freezer before, or something like that. Like, this isn't our first, because. And that's true, though. You know, when they die in the winter, they can't be buried.
- [52:52]
Rob Morrow
I think Holling says that line, by the way.
- [52:54]
Janine Turner
Really? I thought it was.
- [52:55]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, no, I think Colleen says it.
- [52:57]
Janine Turner
I would like to ask you about Bill White, who played Dave the cook. And I believe in this show, it might have been his first line because he walks through and has two lines when we're all congregated there, which are always big shots to do, by the way, when you have the entire cast there and you have to get close ups of everybody and whatnot. But he passed away a couple of years ago and he was really integral to our show. If you would talk a little bit about. It's about time to wrap here. But if you would talk about casting him, because he was delightful.
- [53:27]
John Vreeke
Yeah, Bill White was an extra. I remember they said, hey, can you pick somebody to be in the kitchen in the back? So I brought Bill in and he started. You know, he embraced it totally. And then, like you said, I think this episode might have been the episode where they actually started giving him some lines. I don't know that they ever gave him the status, like Elaine or Peg. I think they kept. I don't know about whatever contract they might have had with him, but he was a featured extra.
- [54:00]
Rob Morrow
Well, John, is there anything else you want to. Because we're going to wind it up here. Is there anything else you want to share before we do?
- [54:07]
John Vreeke
Okay, so just quickly, you're coming up to the great episode Soulmates. And, you know, I'm a stage director. One of the reasons that I had some success in that culture of Northern Exposure for five years is that I was smart enough. I was already 40 years old by the time we started shooting. I was smart enough to keep quiet, look around, not offer too many suggestions, if any at all. But at the end of Soulmates, Marilyn and this trip of Native Americans do the Raven Story, their version of Christmas. I mean, that episode had everybody's version of Christmas. John singing Ave Maria, you making a Christmas tree, and giving it to Maggie. I mean, I got emotional watching that. I just checked that out again. The reason I checked it out is I directed that whole sequence, the Soulmate sequence, not the camera work. But they said, okay, here's a rehearsal room. Find the Native American dances. I went to Tilikum Village, which is right across Puget Sound on Blake Island. I don't know if you ever explored Blake island while during your time in Seattle.
- [55:24]
Rob Morrow
I did. I was there.
- [55:26]
John Vreeke
They were professional dances. I brought them in, we rehearsed them. We came up with some choreography. Elaine also had something to say about it. And there it was, all this Whole thing that I choreographed, and I just was very. That was very happy time for me. It was very satisfying. And I think that episode won a Peabody Award.
- [55:50]
Rob Morrow
When we cover it, we will definitely give you attribution. And, John, it's just been great to catch up with you. I'm sorry it's so short. We feel like we could go on for hours, but maybe we can get you back again down the line. If there's any particular episode that you feel, maybe it'd be good for you to come on, let us know.
- [56:13]
John Vreeke
I'll look ahead. I'll do it. I'll do it. I've had so much fun since Janine first got a hold of me four days ago. Watching these episodes and watching the interviews. You guys are great interviewing people and getting them to open up. John Corbett hasn't changed a bit. You know, one of the things that the cinematographers complained about with John, this.
- [56:34]
Rob Morrow
It'S always moving, right.
- [56:36]
John Vreeke
They kept saying, john, we're tight on you. You got to try to stay still. And I loved his story about how he never read the scripts.
- [56:48]
Rob Morrow
Right. Amazing. There's a great lesson for me in all of John Gordon Orbit about that. You know, he just. He's alive, you know, and that's what. That's what you see.
- [56:58]
Janine Turner
He had an innocence about him, and.
- [57:01]
Rob Morrow
It becomes incumbent on the. On the show to capture that. So he's just there and. And we have to capture it. Fascinating. But.
- [57:09]
John Vreeke
Yeah. So I'm going to show you this picture. This was Yomi.
- [57:12]
Rob Morrow
Oh, yeah.
- [57:13]
John Vreeke
Can you see that? Remember him?
- [57:15]
Janine Turner
He was one of the shots in. In Ed's movie.
- [57:18]
John Vreeke
Yeah, he was in a lot of the episodes. He died during the fourth or fifth season. The New York Times called me and said, who is that extra? Can you send me a picture? This little man who, the first day on the set refused to go to the caterer truck because. Oh, no, no, I can't do that. Yes, you can. You got to go eat. He never complained. He took care of his mother. And then one day he just up and died. But New York Times, and the title was Yomi Roethlisberger We Hardly Knew. Yeah, I love that. New York Times. This guy.
- [57:59]
Rob Morrow
That's amazing.
- [58:01]
Janine Turner
I just want to say, John, that it's a treat seeing you again. What a joy. You obviously are a consummate professional. You go the extra mile. You just are artistic and intelligent, and you always had a smile on your face. You were always kind and loving. I have the most wonderful memories of you, and I just. Thank you for joining us today. Excellent, excellent stories. I mean, really, really fun behind the scenes today. So it's just wonderful seeing you and I hope you'll come back.
- [58:30]
John Vreeke
Well, thank you so much. Listen, because of my unique position as the producer that never had to make decisions that would would, you know, maybe not make you too happy. I, I was, I always felt such fondness for both of you.
- [58:50]
Janine Turner
Well, listen, thanks for joining us today for this season three episode five Body in Question, which is one of our more philosophical, intellectual, poetic shows. And Rob Morrow, always, always a joy seeing you and we'll see you next week. So we're signing off from, from o' Connell and Fleischman.
- [59:09]
Rob Morrow
Actually, I think it's probably better to be it should be Fleischman o'.
- [59:13]
John Vreeke
Connell.
- [59:15]
Janine Turner
In your dreams, Fleischman. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.