S3E7: "A-Hunting We Will Go" with David Schwartz

Summary

Northern Disclosure – S3E7: "A-Hunting We Will Go"

Evergreen Podcasts | October 21, 2025
Hosts: Rob Morrow (Joel Fleischman), Janine Turner (Maggie O'Connell)
Guest: David Schwartz (series composer)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Northern Disclosure dives into “A-Hunting We Will Go,” a memorable episode from Northern Exposure’s second season. Rob and Janine recount the show’s character arcs and the episode’s themes, but the main focus is a fascinating and in-depth conversation with David Schwartz, the Emmy-winning composer of Northern Exposure’s music and theme. Schwartz offers rare behind-the-scenes insights into the creation of the iconic theme, the art of TV scoring, and shares the story behind the episode’s memorable closing cue, “Dancing on the Grave.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates and Setting the Scene

• [00:39–01:21] Janine reports live from a hospital parking lot, supporting her mother post-surgery, highlighting the flexible, heartfelt tone of the podcast.
• Rob acknowledges Janine’s dedication, setting a friendly and supportive backdrop for the episode.

2. Episode Details and Creative Team

• [01:40–03:01]

  • A-Hunting We Will Go was written by Craig Volk (his only episode), directed by Bill D’Elia (who helmed some of the show's most iconic episodes).
  • The hosts express admiration for D’Elia’s directorial style.

• [03:01–03:35]

  • David Schwartz is introduced as the guest composer, the creative force behind the beloved theme and all original cues for the series.

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3. Reflections on the Episode: Character Arcs and Themes

• [03:35–08:38]
  • Janine praises Schwartz and the instantly recognizable theme. She describes the episode as “a great arc for Joel” (Rob’s character), exploring his emotional journey from discomfort to reluctant acceptance to resolution around hunting.
  • Rob highlights the show’s ability to “show different points of view about this particular situation," praising the script for balancing multiple characters’ perspectives on life, death, and community.
  • Both reminisce about the vulnerability and authenticity in their performances—especially in scenes where characters “let all the facades down.”
    • Janine Turner [08:13]: “There just becomes this real sort of into-the-soul type of moments...I really love those really vulnerable moments to play as an actor, don’t you?”
    • Rob Morrow [08:38]: “It’s nice to see behind the facade…letting the guard down and seeing who these people are.”

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4. David Schwartz: Origins of the Iconic Score

How David Got the Job

• [10:38–12:03]
  • Schwartz shares that Northern Exposure was literally his first TV composing job.
  • He got the opportunity through Cheryl Block, the show’s co-producer, after working on a small, unreleased film.
• [12:07–13:57]
  • The show’s original working title: North to the Future.
  • After established composers failed to deliver a fitting theme, Cheryl gave David a shot—“All the Pros…they failed. Okay, now it’s your turn.”
    • David Schwartz [12:07]: “Now that’s one of the great mixed messages…they failed. Okay, now it’s your turn.”

Writing the Theme (“I Thought, This Is Whack”)

• [12:30–14:09]
  • David’s first attempt, formed on bass and layered with accordion and samples, didn’t seem “right" to his own ears. He even submitted a more generic “quiz show” sounding theme, which Cheryl immediately rejected.
  • Only reluctantly did he play the now-iconic theme for Cheryl, who loved it.
• There was competition from a Talking Heads song (“This Must Be the Place”), but David’s theme was ultimately chosen.
• Josh Brand’s creative direction: Rather than lean into Alaskan or Indigenous motifs, he suggested Schwartz “go opposite” (“do things from the Southern Hemisphere”), inspiring the theme’s Cajun/calypso feel.

Quote
[15:43] David Schwartz: “He says, do things from the Southern hemisphere. So that was a big, big starting point for me, you know, because it has Cajun rhythms. It’s got like a calypso thing going on.”

The Recording Process and Legacy

• [17:32–18:42]
  • The original theme was recorded in David’s cramped garage, using 2-inch tape and local LA session players.
  • A harmonica player from Alaska (Tolak Olstad) gave the theme its signature sound, after David rejected a more ‘classical’ player.
  • The theme’s lasting reach: Decades later, people in Amsterdam recognize and request it when Tolak performs.

Quote
[18:42] David Schwartz: “He walked in and I said, where are you from? And he goes, Alaska. I said, this is going to work. So it was a sign.”

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5. On-Screen Music: Crafting Cues and Episode Moments

Music Choices in “A-Hunting We Will Go”

• [23:03–25:33]

  • Rob notes the subtle, restrained music mix of the episode—most cues are barely audible, except the memorable closing cue, “Dancing on the Grave.”
  • David confirms composing a “quiet” classical-inspired cue (cello and violin) for the hunting scenes, evoking melancholy.
  • Discussion of the mixture of “needle drops” (existing songs) and original composition, a signature of Northern Exposure. This collaborative environment was rare on TV.

  Quote
  [25:42] David Schwartz: “I just watch picture and what comes to mind...I probably imagined what I felt at the time, that melancholiness. I don't think that much about what does this mean.”

• [27:01–27:39]

  • Josh Brand often directed Schwartz to play against the on-screen mood: “This is a sad scene—don’t make it sad. Can you make this lighter, a little more fun?”

Duality in the Music

• Janine Turner [27:01]: “That kind of juxtaposition, the duality…it's interesting that that existed in the music too.”
• Schwartz affirms that this duality—the tension between comic and dramatic, light and dark—was foundational in all aspects of the show.

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6. The Iconic Closing Scene: “Dancing on the Grave”

• [28:06–34:17]
  • The climactic final scene, in which Ruthanne and Ed dance atop Ruthanne’s future burial plot, is frequently cited by fans.
  • Schwartz describes his composition process as nearly unconscious—the cue “just has a magic that sort of came. I wouldn't change anything about them.”
    • David Schwartz [30:59]: “Maybe two or maybe a dozen examples in my whole music career, where I don't know where they came from, I wouldn't change anything.”
  • Rob notes that the cue felt like a “minor variation on the theme,” adding emotional resonance to the scene’s philosophical message about mortality and celebration.
  • The ambitious use of a helicopter shot (pre-drones) added a grand, cinematic element to the TV moment.

Quote
[31:26] Rob Morrow: “…deals with death outright in front of you…if we could accept the idea that we're going to die, we could live more fully in essence. And so this, I think, episode really explores that and then celebrates it by her dancing on the grave.”

• [34:17–36:32]
  • Schwartz describes fan reactions and his sense of accomplishment with this moment.
  • Technical note: For the polka cue prior to the grave scene, Schwartz engaged musicians with storied backgrounds, allowing him to learn from their deep experience.

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7. Behind-the-Scenes: Production Life as Composer

• [36:41–39:11]
  • David outlines the TV workflow: receiving rough cuts, usually having about a week to compose, and the technical challenges of the analog era.
  • Working with union players and session legends (including musicians whose credits spanned Tonight Show, Hollywood orchestras, etc.)
  • Choppy TV schedules often meant creating under time pressure, sometimes compressing the creative process into “a blur” of consecutive episodes.

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8. Other Notable Musical Moments—Historical Episodes

• [42:32–47:18]
  • Discusses scoring the “Sicily” episode (the show’s historical flashback): First time using a 65-piece orchestra; process was daunting but deeply rewarding.
  • Schwartz recalls how sometimes music is called upon to “save” a scene or inject extra emotion, and how balancing subtlety and sweep is a key composer’s challenge.
  • Janine Turner notes that when done well, music “melds with the emotion and carries it further,” but if mishandled, can be distracting.

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9. Meta and Fourth-Wall Moments

• [49:34–50:31]
  • The hosts highlight Northern Exposure’s willingness to break the fourth wall or make self-referential jokes (e.g., Ruthanne referencing St. Elsewhere, or nods to Twin Peaks).
  • Schwartz remembers the episode where Josh Brand broke the fourth wall completely; both actors and crew had mixed feelings but agreed it somehow worked.

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10. Memorable Quotes and Lyrical Moments (with Timestamps)

• [06:35] Rob Morrow quoting Joel: “I’ve never had to eat a patient before.”
• [50:31] Rob Morrow recalling Chris’s line: “Man becomes the food of the divinity he worships.”
• [51:24] Joel to Maggie: “The killing was great. It’s the dying I couldn’t take.”
• [15:43] David Schwartz, on Josh Brand’s creative direction: “...do things from the Southern hemisphere.”

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Notable Guest Moments: David Schwartz

• Gratitude and Retrospective ([51:43]):

  • Schwartz attributes much of his subsequent career success to the supportive, experimental atmosphere of Northern Exposure, saying:

    “...a tremendous amount of gratitude for you and the producers and everyone who sort of let me figure out how to do it on the job and grow with it. And it was a totally unique show...”

• Serendipity and Magic ([52:41]):

  • Schwartz closes with a personal anecdote about running into Rob in Santa Monica after losing his home in wildfires, describing the meaningful “magic” of the moment that brought him to the podcast.

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a testament to Northern Exposure’s creative ambition in both writing and music. Rob and Janine’s chemistry with each other, and with David, brings warmth, wit, and genuine insight into how even a single episode’s music and philosophy continue to resonate emotionally and artistically for decades.

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Important Segments for New/Returning Listeners (Timestamps)

• [03:01] — David Schwartz intro and explanation of music cues
• [10:38–15:43] — Origin story of the Northern Exposure theme
• [17:32–18:42] — Recording the theme; finding the harmonica sound
• [28:06–34:17] — Breakdown of the “Dancing on the Grave” cue/scene
• [42:32–47:18] — Scoring the “Sicily” episode and orchestral experiences
• [49:34–50:31] — Self-aware, fourth-wall moments in the show
• [51:24–52:41] — Memorable quotes and Schwartz’s closing gratitude

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Tone and Style Notes

• In keeping with the show, the tone is nostalgic, philosophical, and lightly comic—marked by honest, human moments and an affection for the artistic process.

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For fans of Northern Exposure, television history, or film/TV composition, this episode offers both heartfelt memories and deep insight into the music and magic behind Cicely, Alaska.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hola, Northern Exposure fans. I'm coming to you with my colleague, my friend, Janine Turner, who is down in Texas. You can see she's in her car. Normally she's in her little home studio, but her mom is in the hospital with a. She had a hip replacement.

[C]

Yes, she broke her hip. She broke the femur bone beneath the right where the hip is. So she had to have surgery.

[B]

So Jeanine, being the good daughter that she is, has been selflessly taking care of her mom and she didn't want to miss this. So she's in the parking lot outside of the hospital. But you look great as always and I'm glad you're here. I'm glad your mom is doing okay.

[C]

Thank you. Thanks, Rob. Good to see you. It's always a breath of fresh air to see you and work, watch the show. It's always a. It's always a inspiration. So thank you. Thank you for your thoughts and appreciate it. Robin, texting Rob through this whole process, giving him the updates you have, and.

[B]

I've been sending my good thoughts and hoping for the best and it looks like it's working out. So this episode is. This is a fun one. This is Hunting We Will Go. And it was written by Craig Volk, who only wrote one episode, which is why I don't really remember him. I don't know if we've never met. And it was. And it was directed by our great friend and director, Bill d', Elia, who, when I was looking up his credits, I knew he directed a lot. He directed six episodes and they're all kind of iconic, or most of them. Listen to the ones Bill d' Elia directed. War and Peace. Only you A Hunting We Will Go, Northern Lights, Unavolto in Le In Verno and Fish Story. Those are some big episodes. And when directors get gigs on TV shows, it's usually not for a script. It's. They just get slotted in and then the script comes along. So he ended up getting the draw of some pretty great episodes. But our special guest today is a friend of mine, a great guy, and a super talented and prolific composer. And he's the one, David Schwartz, who wrote the theme song of Northern Exposure, as well as doing all of the cues, the music cues, throughout the whole run of the show.

[C]

You want to explain what a music cue is?

[B]

Sure, yeah. Well, a music cue is, you know, in a scene, there's different ways music can come on. It can be a needle drop, which is, you know, a song that's already been recorded. And sometimes it'll be a source. It'll be sourced, like from a radio within the scene, or it'll just be background music. And David wrote all of the background music, basically, and he really did an amazing job and has had an amazing career. But did you watch this episode, Jeanine?

[C]

I did, and I'll just say I think David is brilliant. And that theme song is just, as you said, what better word than iconic? You're just going to recognize that like you would the Happy Days, all the great show title.

[B]

What do you call those theme songs?

[C]

There you go. Thank you. But yeah, the theme songs. It's so iconic, and it's wonderful to have him on the show. I'm very excited about it. And yes, I did watch the show. How fun was it, as usual. So I thought it was a great arc for you. I mean, you were devastated about it, then you were excited about it, then you were devastated about it, and then you were resolved about it. So it was a nice arc for you, lots to play.

[B]

Joel, feel, you know, what I was thinking was Joel feels a lot. You know, he's. He's someone who feels, you know, and it was interesting watching his dilemma with. With. With hunting, you know, and, yeah, as you said, embracing it. And I love that first scene with you. You know, you just were so like, this is the world we live in, man. This is history, and this is what we do. This is what human beings do. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with it. And you were so clear about it. It was. I just loved your work in that scene.

[C]

Well, showing the different points of view of a subject.

[B]

Right?

[C]

That's what the show was able to do that it does so well. It's like we're gonna show different points of view about this particular situation, and I love that. I love that. It's just not one point of view. So we were able to see the arc of everybody in the way they perceive things.

[B]

Right because we're dealing with death, too. Because then you have the Ruthanne storyline, which we'll talk about. I don't want to give away because it's just so beautiful. But you know, that. That dealing with death as well, in different ways. So I really liked it. I'll read the little. You know, there's a longer. Should I read the long one or the short one?

[C]

Oh, I think the short one.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

All right. The short one's pretty short. It's. Chris and Holling head out on their annual hunting trip when Joel asks to go along. Ruthanne has a birthday but wants to avoid a fuss. Shelly organizes a party for her.

[C]

Oh, no. But Shelly didn't. Ed did.

[B]

You're right. That's right. Ed did it. Well, I guess Shelley put it together, but Ed. It was Ed's idea or something like that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They were both involved. But you're right. Ed was. Ed was the impetus for it.

[C]

And it was so funny, you know, I thought when the three of you go hunting, how Halling just like, okay, we did it. Let's go. You know, he wants to get back to Shelley. He doesn't want to be with Shelley anymore. I mean, without Shelley anymore. And then, of course, you know, Chris of the morning, John Corbitts, just his ethereal and verbose. His usual sort of quoting philosophy. And then you just got so incredibly excited about it. It was funny.

[B]

And then he's, you know, he's got that great line. I love this line. I've never. At the end, he says, I've never had to eat a patient before.

[C]

Ye. And I thought it was interesting the way you were kind of okay with that. I mean, that was. Wouldn't that put the cherry on the top of the arc? Wouldn't you say?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, you know, we've talked about it a few times now, but the. Watching the Joel changes a lot in the arc of the overall series. And this would be a pretty significant one, you know. And I have to say, when I was watching, I felt all of us, you know, from you in the first scene to me, to Corbett to Barry to Peg, you know, everyone was kind of settled into their characters by this point in the series. Right. There wasn't any guessing. Like, we were very, I think, sure of what we were doing, and it shows. I think the work is a little clearer and more confident at this point in the series. Do you agree?

[C]

I agree. And I just keep thinking about that scene at the end where you've been crying watching Old Yeller. And Black Stallion, by the way, Black Stallion is a great movie. Great movie.

[B]

Yeah. I haven't seen it in a while. I should love to watch it again.

[C]

The Horse and. But you were. You had your. You know, you hadn't shaved in a couple of days. Your hair was a mess, you were tired and crying. And I love those kind of scenes. Like, I had one. Was it just last. Last episode with Adam in the bar, you know, where I was hungover, my mascara was fine, my hair was flat. And I love those moments because what happens is we just let all the facades down. We as a characters, as the actors with the character, and there's just becomes this real sort of into the soul type of moments of that character where you get to see who they really are, not who they pretend to be or, you know, peel the onion. You're a little bit deeper. And I really, really love those really vulnerable moments to play as an actor, don't you?

[B]

I agree. Yeah. It's really. It's nice to see behind the facade, as you say, and, you know, letting the guard down and seeing who these people are. And, you know, I think we always went for it. You know, Joel's hair is so weird. I can't even. I was trying to think, what is going on with that hair in there? Like, it was, like, just bizarre.

[C]

But you mean in that scene? In that scene?

[B]

Yeah, in that scene. It was just.

[C]

I didn't notice. But that's good.

[B]

Vanity.

[C]

That's good.

[B]

Anyway, let's. Let's bring out David. So let me tell you about David Schwartz. For those of you out there in watching and listening, you can also watch on YouTube on the Northern Exposure channel. You can listen wherever you get a podcast. David Schwartz is a. Is a, you know, a composer who has incredible credits. He most recently on the Good Place and Arrested Development, which he wrote every note of every cue. And he also did the theme song for Deadwood. And his credits on and on and on and on. And one of. He did win the Emmy for Lucy and Desi, which was directed by the great and lovely Amy Poehler. And. And we were blessed to have him. And he. I call him a friend. I see him. He helped my. My daughter get into school. He's got a great family. His daughter's a very, you know, successful and talented songwriter and performer. And his wife, everyone, it's just a great, great family. And we're pleased to have you here. David Schwartz.

[D]

Well, I couldn't be more excited. And I agree what you were saying about this episode and Rob you commit to every one of those changes. You hate hunting, then you become philosophical about it. Then you love hunting and just how strongly you commit. And you have this wonderful foil and Janine, who just, you know, get over it, Fleischman kind of thing. And it starts that the beginning of this episode is epic. And I agree with you that, like, in this season, things started to both solidify and change. And it may be a golden period, not just this episode, but the ones around it.

[B]

Can we talk a second about first how you ended up on this gig, and then how the theme song, which is, you know, as Janine said, iconic. As soon as you hear, like, you know, two notes, you kind of know where you are. So how did you end up getting the gig?

[D]

It's a good story. I hadn't done any composing at all. The first piece of music I ever wrote for television is the Northern Exposure team.

[B]

Because you were a musician?

[D]

I was a musician, yeah, as a bass player. But I did a little, little film for a friend of mine that never got out. But One of the 25 people who saw the little film was Cheryl Block, who's Northern Exposure co producer and is still a close friend of mine.

[B]

We love Cheryl. We got to get Cheryl on the show soon, Jeanine. I don't know why we haven't got.

[C]

Yeah, I've been talking to Cheryl, so I think it'll be happening soon.

[D]

I know she wants to do it, and I've seen her fairly recently. But Cheryl also would take chances on directors, on actors. She'd hire people that she thinks would be great but hadn't done it before, and that was totally me. I hadn't done anything. I had done this one film that didn't come out, and because they didn't have the budget to finish it. And after that film, I decided I want to be a composer. And I didn't realize, like, anything how challenging that was. So I spent about a year and a half sending out cassettes, because it was cassettes. Then no response. And then Cheryl calls me up out of the blue and says, hey, we have this show called north to the Future, where that was the working title before it became Northern Exposure.

[C]

Oh, I didn't know that. Did you know that, Rob?

[B]

I think I did. Yeah. I think I did.

[D]

It wasn't even set. That was what she thought it might be called. And she said, we've tried everybody in town, and we don't like anything. So you want to give a shot now? That's one of the great mixed messages, like all the Pros, people who have done major movies, TV shows, they failed. Okay, now it's your turn.

[B]

So this is like an audition that you. You're going to write a cue or you're going to write a song, and they're going to listen to it, and that'll be your.

[D]

I was so green. I didn't know what it was, but I felt it was serious, you know, because you get calls, you go like, well, anyway, I would always say yes to everything. I still do. So a few minutes later, I guess it must have been an hour later, someone shows up from one of the major agencies. Caa. Maybe it was the ca. Whatever. Someone hands me a script, and that was it. So I started writing right then. And the first thing that came out of me was basically the Northern Exposure theme. It's hard to tell how close it was to the final version, but I thought, this is whack. I just couldn't understand it myself. I play it back and said, no, this doesn't sound like a TV theme.

[B]

What did you write? What did you write it on? Piano or bass or a harmonica? What?

[D]

I started with the bass line because I'm a bass player, and my goal in life at that point was to get my bass perfectly recorded. So I probably spent 90% of my time on that. On a friendless bass bass that I had. Had made.

[B]

Right. It's got a great line, right. It's like.

[D]

No, that's the melody ball. That's the baseline. And it's still hard to play. And then I added accordion and other things, but I wrote it on a keyboard. I don't think I had a real piano at that time. And I just filled in the instrument. They were very crude versions of the kind of sampled instruments we have now. But then I tried to replace everything with real instruments, but Cheryl walks in, and I played her the quiz show theme that I had written. My alt. You know, it totally went against my gut, and Cheryl's very straight ahead.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. What. What quiz show wasn't made yet?

[D]

Maybe I didn't say this. Well, so not. Not your quiz show.

[B]

Oh.

[D]

So. So I wrote the theme as we know it. Pretty much a crude version of it, but I didn't trust it. So I wrote what I thought a TV theme would sound like. And listening back, I don't have the one that. The second choice. To me, it sounded like a quiz show, right?

[B]

Like Jeopardy. Like do do do, do do.

[D]

Yeah, it's. It sounded like a TV theme to me. And the Northern Exposure theme, which I Had written first. Didn't sound right. Cheryl comes in and this is very Cheryl. She goes like, oh, that's not very good. We can't use that. And she's walking out the door and goes. She's very direct and I love that about her. There's very few people in television who. I don't know what it's like to work with her now, but that's what it was like then. That's no good. And. And she said, do you have anything else? And I had the actual Northern Exposure theme, and I hadn't played that to her. And she said, oh, I really like that. That's good. I'm going to play this to Josh and John. But we have a song from. Oh, God, Talking Heads, David Byrne, that now you'd be competing with. And Josh and John really like this song from David Byrne and Talking Heads.

[B]

Do you remember which song?

[D]

I think it was this Little Town, I think is the title of it.

[B]

Right, right. There you go. That would be a great song.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, it was.

[B]

Because we used some Talking Head songs in Needle Drops over the.

[D]

Right. It was very big at the time and really influencing things. And I think also before that, I should say that I had a conversation with Josh and I'm saying, like, I'm not finding much inspiration in music from the indigenous people of Alaska. He says, well, go opposite. It was just classic Josh, too. He says, do things from the Southern hemisphere. So that was a big, big starting point for me, you know, because it has Cajun rhythms.

[B]

It's got like a calypso thing going on.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. Which was also a big thing. The Buena Vista Social Club was happening, I think, around that time, which was an influence on the show anyway. And Josh. I should go back one other step. I knew Josh because our sons were in the same preschool class. And Cheryl said, Josh goes like, well, I don't want to hire David because what if I don't like him later? Instead of like, oh, I know this guy. That would be good. He had a fear that it wouldn't work out and therefore he shouldn't listen to me. That's funny. So I play Cheryl the real theme, the David Byrne song is in play. And about, I don't know how many days later, Cheryl calls me up and goes like, oh, we're going to use your theme. And I can't believe it, because I had nothing. This is the first thing I ever wrote, literally, except for this little movie that didn't happen.

[B]

Amazing.

[D]

So I'm totally tripping out. I'm really excited. And she goes, and we'll see you tomorrow.

[B]

Wait, see you tomorrow to record it?

[D]

No, to spot the whole show. But I didn't even know what that meant.

[B]

Oh, you were being hired. You didn't even know you were being hired as a composer for the whole show.

[D]

I didn't know I was the composer. And now I'm. I go from excitement to pure fear, you know, like, I don't know how to do this. I don't know what I'm doing, you know. And I called up my friend who had just gotten the job a year before that of 30 something, and I say, what do I do? And he goes, well, you'll just do it. And I said, Like 30 years from now, am I going to remember that? And he was right. I remember that, that I'm just going to do it. And he said, well, you're guilt based and fear based, so you'll get it done one way or the other. And I love that advice. And that's Snuffy Walden. He's still a good friend.

[B]

Sure, he's great. Great composer. Listen, when you recorded this, what was the. Where was it recorded? Like, was it a. You know, I guess I hope I don't get too granular for the audience because I'm a musician, I love music. So. But like, I'm curious how this was recorded. Was it live? Like with a group in a live studio?

[D]

It was the 2 inch tape in my little garage that wasn't big enough to hold the equipment that had it in. Almost everything was real because then I started to get musicians and even Josh, when I talked to him after, it seemed like they were accepting the thing. Can we try it with a horn section? Can we try? He had about five suggestions and it was a fake harmonica and they really liked that. And I got the best harmonica player in town. I would hire top session players figuring it's the only way to do it right. And they hated it because he sort of had a classical sound. So they said, can we go back to the fake harmonica? And I said, no, we can't. I hate it. So I hired a guy named Tolak Olstad who. I'd done some R B track with it and his idol was Stevie Wonder. So he had that harmonica sound. And he walked in and I said, where are you from? And he goes, alaska. I said, this is going to work. So it was a sign. And I just heard from Tolak, who lives in Amsterdam and was playing a gig there. And he said he got off stage and these young people 30 year olds came up and he says, are you Tolak? And they start singing the Northern Exposure theme to him in Amsterdam last year.

[B]

Ren and I like that. Anyone. Whenever we hear someone who's 30 years old watching the show, we're happy.

[D]

And last night I was at a composer function and so many people, it's sort of in the atmosphere again, you know. Recently they haven't talked, been talking about more recent work. But people came back and one of the executives at csac, the royalties organization, says, I always listen to the theme when I watch that show. I've been watching it and usually I skip the themes of shows. And I said, well, that's the greatest compliment.

[B]

That is a great compliment.

[C]

I have a question and I would like to talk about the instruments that were used. And when it goes da da da.

[D]

Da da da da da da da. Right.

[C]

What instrument was that?

[D]

First of all, excellent singing example. Okay, that's the chromatic harmonica, which is not like Rob, I'm sure you and I can play harmonica. But a chromatic is just a. You're out of wind in a second, you know, if you blow in, it's a different note. No, that's a regular harmonica. It's very hard to play. It has a little button. Stevie Wonder is the master too. Steelsman is the jazz master. So that's the main instrument. But I think the, the da da da da. The what brings you to that note is the accordion. And my friend Mike Thompson played the accordion, I think when we re recorded again for the record. But I think I played it on a sample there or maybe Bill Elliot. I played the fretless bass. I brought in one of the great percussionists of all time, Luis Conte, a true Cuban in temperament and musicality. And he didn't know me at all. And he was like. He came into my garage and just looked like, oh, this kid is just. He has no experience. I'm just gonna do this. And he played the greatest thing. And you know, there's an intro to the song where it goes pop, pop, pop, pop pop on the congas, right? And so when we did the record version a year later, Josh says, oh, I need the 3 minute version like it exists. And I said, Josh, it's pretty hard to make this one minute version. I think it was 107. And he goes, we'll make it, you know. And I've never worked with a producing team like Northern Exposure. The best. I learned so much. All of them have incredible musical taste. Andy and Diane would talk about Alvin Baer against Stravinsky. Martin would come up with stuff just. I won't spot it out of his butt. But, you know, Martin liked two things, Stevie Nixon and Fleetwood Mac. And yet he researched music every week and found stuff and would want to play every song he's ever heard against every part of the show he spotted.

[B]

He ended up being very influential, I think, on the show.

[D]

Martin totally, and Steve Turner behind him, you know, in a quieter way. But they would all find music and it was great. So what was I saying? So I had the accordion came in and Louise played the percussion. But when I had moved between the writing the original theme and having to do the record and we could not get his Kunga sound to sound anything like it in the new studio. And I said to Louise, I said, we have to match this so it sounds the same. And he goes, man, I didn't know who you are. I just brought some shitty Kungas that someone gave me as an endorsement. I said, can we get those? He says, no, man, I sold them to some student, you know, I love that. So we had to use those. Ba ba ba ba ba. The first little intro. We had to take those and put them on the new version. And then afterwards, once the band was playing, you didn't hear the difference.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

So let's. Let's get into this. This episode a little bit. So are there. There didn't seem like a lot of cues, save for the ending, which we'll talk about later. What. What. What came out to you because. And they were. I think the mix was very low because I was listening for one cue that I liked. I think when Maurice was in the radio station as the guys are going out hunting, there's some sounding something kind of quasi classical underneath, but I couldn't quite decipher.

[D]

You Are right. Everything about it. It's the quietest mix, except for the tune that we chose this episode for, which is Dancing on the Grave. But I watched it a number of times and I said, is that a record? Is that me? And that's one of them. And I went as far as playing my brother in law, who's a classical music expert. I said, did I write this or. I did. It was just a cello and one other instrument.

[B]

It's really beautiful. It's just quiet.

[C]

Where was the churro?

[B]

I think underneath the scene where just when Joel and Holling and Chris are going out to hunt, Maurice takes over Chris's duties at the radio station.

[C]

Rob, you're always so good about explaining things to the audience. I mean, we might want to explain that a little bit more. It's just like the music underneath is maybe, as you said, like a needle drop, which is a Dwight Yocum or whomever. But it also was something composed originally and that just. That just drops in underneath, like, as you're talking about when we go into the. When you're going hunting. And how does that. How does that work? I mean, do you think, okay, I hear a little bit of this, I hear a little bit of that. Do they tell you what kind of music they want?

[D]

This show is the most interesting in that way because it was a real combination of the needle drop, what Chris played at K Bear and the jukebox. And because everyone had great musical ideas, they'd bring this stuff in. Oh, we're going to play Dwight Yogam here. Now, whether they could get license to use that or not would be interesting. But we had so many great records. We had David Byrne, we had, you know, just every artist at the time. And other times, that's the thing we did. We weren't using current pop records. So when we started, I had very little composing cues to do. But that was sort of the time that, you know, now if I do a drama, it's almost the full drama end to end. But then it was a small part of the combination. And as. As the seasons went on, they'd start going like, oh, well, can you write something that's in the jukebox? Or that Chris plays on the radio? Which was. And I would just always say, yes. But to this day it's pretty unusual.

[C]

In the hunting scene. What made you think that? Where they go hunting? Fleischmann and Hauling and Chris and White. What made you sing cello?

[B]

Right. Because it's a good point, Janine. Because it's a melancholy, which I Guess underlies Joel's issue. There's a melancholy to that, that cue.

[D]

It's hard to remember the original inspiration at that time, but I just watch picture and what comes to mind. And I had that instrumentation for the dance on the Graveseed. So I had one or two violinists. I don't know if the same violinist played both parts or I had two. I remember Karen Briggs was the violinist that I remember. She might have played both parts. And I had a cello. So that's what was the instrumentation of the show to me. Now, sometimes that would change around. Producers would move it at the mix. They'd have to put it in a different episode, but it's very variable that way. But I had that instrumentation. And then I probably imagining what I felt at the time, you know, that I just felt the melancholiness. And I don't think that much about what does this mean?

[B]

And interesting.

[D]

Josh would often say, well, you know, this is a sad scene. Don't make it sad. Can you make this a little lighter, a little more fun? Or the other way around? You know, we need a little seriousness to this, and how can we get that in there? Josh was very. You know, when I went to other shows, they were like, sad. Someone's crying. Write sad music in a mic. It was more literal.

[C]

That's so symbolic, because, Rob, you and I talk about that all the time. That. That kind juxtaposition, the duality within our spirits. You know, the yin and the yang, you know. You know, Maggie o' Connell's rich from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, but she moves to Alaska to cut her hair off and shoot her own deer. It's that kind of duality within the spirit that I love about our characters. It's interesting that that existed in the music, too.

[D]

I think it's built into the entire architecture of the show in the acting and the writing in the music. And Josh was just magical that way.

[C]

Interesting. He plays against it a lot.

[B]

By the way, I just spotted the Emmy back there over your left shoulder.

[D]

I did not place it for this podcast, but it's very well placed.

[B]

That's the second Emmy we've had on the show. We had Frank Prinze's Emmy, and now we have yours.

[D]

Nice.

[C]

Yeah, that's really awesome.

[B]

So. So getting back to the. To the episode, what. What other cues or ideas jumped out at you when you were watching it?

[D]

Well, you know, to me, it's all about that last scene, which is really big. And I get more letters on that scene than anything else, or emails. More accurately.

[B]

All right, well, let's. We'll go to the last scene. I was going to save it to the ending, but it's such a. It's one of the great, as far as I'm concerned, one of the great moments in a show that had a lot of great moments. And we're talking about the end of the episode where Ed buys or, you know, somehow gets a plot of land. Ruthanne is dealing with. She's dealing with. With mortality or, you know, she's got some issues about getting old and dietary restrictions. And Ed all of a sudden is aware that she's going to die.

[D]

And.

[B]

And. And he. He tries to. And she's turning 75. Peg was only 73, by the way, and she's turning 75 in. The EP gives her this plot of land on top of a mountain with this incredible vista view, which is where she would like her to be buried. And Ruthanne has the idea of dancing on the grave. So you take it from there, David.

[D]

Okay. Well, I think Ed is really pivotal to this episode. I mean, there's so many different things in this episode. But Ed realizes, oh, people he loves can die. And instead of just accepting that he wants to do something, he wants to make a grand gesture or just a loving gesture. And so he gets this piece. And I remember being intimidated by the scene. I will say there's two things. The theme of the show, the Northern Exposure theme, and I have to credit Morty the moose, to go back to that, because the way the two juxtaposed made something that was greater than, you know, the sum of its parts. But wait, what do you mean?

[B]

What do you mean?

[D]

Well, when you had the moose and my theme.

[B]

Right. You're right. It is. It is the juxtaposition.

[D]

My theme wouldn't have worked with Maurice driving his car through town. I mean, Maurice is the greatest, of course, but, you know, there's something. Whoever, you know, put those two together. And I think it was a lot of an accident and the moose, you know, being kept in the town somehow. And it just. It just was the show. And I think the music blended in a way that. Well, you know, what I do is write music to picture. And every time it amazes me. And, you know, someone can say, this doesn't feel right. You can do it 10 times and you're going to get 10 different results when you put music to picture.

[C]

Right.

[D]

The point I was going for is that the dance on the grave music and the Northern Exposure music, maybe two or maybe a dozen examples in my whole music career, where I don't know where they came from, I wouldn't change anything about them. Which a lot of times I go, I could have done this better. I could have done that better with some other piece of music. But these just have a magic that just sort of came. I started writing, I probably put my hands to a keyboard and it just was different than anything.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know. But you know what's interesting, though, to me, when I was listening to it last night, when I watched the show again, it felt like a kind of subtle minor variation on the theme.

[D]

I could see that the accordion.

[C]

And.

[B]

Yeah, there's definitely references which may have been unconscious or conscious. Unconscious. But it's a great. You know, what makes it. The music really distinguishes that scene. Well, the idea of dancing on your grave is. Is. And. And, you know, I love. What I love about this episode is it deals with death outright in front of you so much in our world. So, you know, there's a great book by a man named Ernst Becker that's called the Denial of Death. And the premise is that we are, as human beings, we spend our existence in denial of death, and that's what creates all our problems. And if we could accept the idea that we're going to die, we could live more fully in essence. And so this, I think, episode really explores that and then celebrates it by her dancing on the grave. And then you put this beautiful music that you wrote that is just magnificent. And then they have a helicopter, which we never used on the show, and it's circling this precipice. And. And there is Ed and Ruthanne dancing. And it's. To me, I. You know, again, out of a show that had many great moments, it's right up there as at the top. And. And. And you. You really hit a home run with that.

[D]

Well, first of all, your speech about the book about death, I thought could have been lifted out of the show as a script. The way you're talking about the philosophy of death, that was beautiful. But, yeah, I would have liked to be in that meeting when they decided, how are we going to shoot this? And let's get a helicopter. There weren't drones then, you know, watched it again. I got. Oh, they had a drone shot. That's cool. There were no drones. They were waiting for the helicopter. And I wonder if that was Josh's idea or someone up in Seattle.

[B]

Well, it was probably Bill d' Elia again. Bill d' Elia did such a great job. He directed. First of all, he was Just a pleasure to work with. But he really did. He captured so much in this episode and allowed. I think Janine would attest to this too because I noticed something in the performances. It's subtle, but he allowed me the actors to breathe. He allows the moments to breathe. And it's why he did so many of our great shows.

[C]

Well, that's what I like about the show in general was the. And back in the way they used to film shows in the 90s and before they did allow actors to breathe and to moments to settle, which I think is kind of a lost art.

[D]

And if it's not a good show, it could feel slow. But our show just felt like it just works that way to have a little time to let people breathe. And that scene is interesting too because it starts out really intimate. The two of them standing there, this great relationship between young Ed and Ruth Ann. And the actors seem to really enjoy each other. And it starts on a close two shot and it's a little bit bittersweet. We're talking about her death. And then it just goes to this grand scale and not. Whoever just thought of the helicopter shot, whoever okayed it, you know, that got okayed in that time. Yeah, let's go for a helicopter here.

[B]

You're right, because that's expensive.

[D]

And it just worked out. I got a lot of comments over the years. People asked me for that tune. And it's a nice thing that people have a feeling about it to this day.

[B]

Was there any other cues from the show that you. That jumped out at you?

[D]

Well, just a sort of funny thing because right before that there's a friend of mine, a music editor, the great Erica Weiss, who I've worked with before she found the cue sheet, we couldn't find it. She went back to BMI's old records and so I could see what's on there. And right before that there's a two minute piece called Polka Dance. And I just thought that was a track that they found from some polka library. But no, it's me. I saw it on the cue sheet and I had two of the greatest musicians. Frank Morocco, who played accordion on the Godfather, could play poker accorded. So I got him in. And it's the kind of thing, you know, you give them some chords and you said like you guys got this, you know, and they were fine with that because they could do that. And I think it was paid most on clarinet. Who was the sound of Benny Goodman in those Benny Goodman story movies. So one thing that I. I started out my Career hiring senior musicians, you know, who had been in big bands, who had been in symphonies, and I didn't have to have them play, like, current pop songs. They could, you know, I could learn from them as much play for me. And it was really a great experience and very cool. I grew up in New York and in Great Neck, where I grew up, a lot of my friends. Dads were studio musicians and they played on the Tonight show, and they were kind of legends. My parents were visual artists, so that's another interesting subject. But when the Carson show moved to California, some of those players moved out here. And so I would hire Snooki Young, the great trumpet player, and I'd talk about my first girlfriend's father, Bernie Glow, one of the great trumpet players, and he would start crying, and I didn't realize how important this was to them.

[B]

Oh, man.

[D]

So. And I got to learn from those guys. And they would always say, go union. You know, And I already was union, but they were concerned about my pension, you know, and they'd come in and they do 10 minutes of, like, what now would be called corny jokes. And we don't have time to do 10 minutes of jokes.

[B]

You're probably not even in the same room anymore.

[D]

Right, Right. My guitarist is a mile away. I usually do him remote. He's one of the greatest people and musicians I've ever worked with. The great George Deering. He works four sessions every day.

[B]

Let me ask you something. Like, how did it work in terms of you would get the episode, you would get a rough cut, and then you'd have how much time to write the cues?

[D]

I think a week would be the most. It was more civilized then. And you'd always be hearing, oh, we're going to get. You don't usually get it locked, but Northern started having shows that didn't fully lock. They would lock after music sometimes. So I think, like a PA would bring it over sometimes in the middle of the night, you know. Now it's all done on the Internet. But I loved when the PAs come over because I think, what's happening at the office? What's the feeling about this? You know, it was like my spy into the camp, you know, you're watching a VHS tape. Yeah, yeah. And. And then I had really troublesome hardware that would lock my computer or.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So that could lock up. And sometimes you'd keep on restarting because you want to play this note. And it might take 20 seconds to lock up. Now all that's instant. The technology is much better, but I was using 2 inch tape, which is, you know, the standard of, you know, 24 tracks. Rob, you know about this and it, it sounded great. I still go back and say that sounds better. Like, how can we get to there again? And it's hard to go back.

[B]

Yeah, the analog days.

[D]

And, you know, I had a professional engineer that would come in and mix it. Now whoever's working with me, we mix it together because I'm always mixing, you know, they want to hear the same day the idea. It goes back and forth. It has its advantages too. But there was more formality to the schedule then.

[B]

So let's talk about maybe throw it over the whole arc of what you did. 110 episodes. Like what does anything, any other memories or cues or anything come to mind about millions? Did it ever get harder or less harder or easier?

[D]

At times it was very hard and. But, you know, I was flying by the seat of my pants because I had never done anything. So I always was in, you know, in that mode of like being a fraud and, you know. But it somehow worked out because one.

[B]

Thing the audience doesn't remember. No, it realizes that there's this thing they call compression in post production where you're shooting. We were shooting 25 episodes at this point a season. And at the beginning, you know, we start shooting and there's like six weeks before air. But by the end of the season, by the spring, there's like sometimes days before the actual cut is finished and it's getting on the air. So you must have been, you know, really challenged to write fast.

[D]

I just finished the end of the second season of man on the Inside with Ted Danson. And like the last three episodes were just like a blur together. But in Northern, I usually had pretty close to a week. There might have been ones where I had three or four days. I'm not accurate about that, but I do remember when we got to 100 shows in post production in LA, they sent us all a patch and they told us we could sew it on our own jackets. I think you got the patch sewed on by, you know, the costume crew up there.

[B]

There were two patches. I have a jacket. It's one of the Krug jackets we got. And it says Northern Exposure over here. And then there was. There was a 50 episode patch and 100 episode patch.

[C]

I don't know that I got that jacket.

[B]

No. Yeah, you did. The patch wasn't. You have to put the patch on. So I think wardrobe sewed it on for me. But the jacket was. It was very it looked like Holling. The jacket that Holling wore, it's kind.

[D]

Of a thick, brown canvas. Yeah.

[C]

Huh. I don't even know if I. I probably have it in my storage house somewhere. But I don't remember the. I don't remember the patches or anything like that. That's interesting. I don't know. That's funny. I don't really.

[B]

Speaking of dress, how about when Fleischman shows up to go hunting? I know.

[C]

That was hilarious.

[B]

I look like Elmer Fudd. I look like a kind of incandescent Elmer Fudd or something. Like that hat, like, I can't believe I wore it.

[D]

You carried it well. What was I just thinking? The first time I met. I think I went to a wrap party, and we didn't have big ones, but I met you all, and it was surreal to me because I had been, like, all my waking hours staring at you on a tiny little TV that I was watching the picture on. And it was, to me, like you had stepped out of the tv. I was so overworked at that point that it was surreal to actually, like, oh, you're actually different people than your characters. That's how green I was. And same thing. When I came up to Seattle a couple of times to work on stuff, it was really a magical experience. I couldn't have had a better first show.

[B]

Why would you come up to Seattle to work on stuff?

[D]

There was a musical episode where everybody was supposed to sing, and then it just became Cynthia. Just singing.

[B]

That's right. We were all supposed to sing. And then I think it got too complicated. Was that it?

[D]

Well, you didn't like your singing, but you got big laughs. And then for some reason, you weren't liking singing, and it just became Cynthia, which worked fine. But before that, there were tons of meetings, and Josh was leaving the show at the time, or we knew he was leaving. And it's that thing. And I've experienced this before. Everyone walks in with their favorite album. So all the producers come. We're at a big desk, and someone's carrying Aretha Franklin, and someone's carrying Beethoven, and someone's carrying, you know, a score from a Broadway show. And they say, okay, go. You know. So I came back with different ideas. I hired a collaborator, and we sort of came up with sort of rolling. Someone had suggested the Rolling Stones. There was no identity that worked. And we ended up. I ended up writing acapella songs. I don't think that there was anything. And the only one that survived the edit was Cynthia, who was great. Such A great sport about it. And she's so. It was just. It was very Cynthia. It felt right on her and not right anybody else.

[B]

She's a good singer, too.

[D]

Yeah. And I think everybody in the show could sing, and everybody. I think we. I wasn't there, but they had everyone sing on tape to show to the producers and me.

[C]

I think it would have been great if all of us had sung. That would have been ahead of its time as well. It would have been super, super cool. I have a question for you, though. What about the Sicily episode? What kind of where we were back in time.

[D]

Right. That was a big one. And Rob and I discussed that as one. That's the first time I ever used an orchestra. So I came to the Santa Monica building at Lantana, and I see Josh out front, and.

[B]

I'll just tell. That's where the post production was done, at a building in Santa Monica called Lantana Film center, where a lot of TV shows and movies did their post production.

[D]

Right. But we were the first people in that building. And it would, like, sort of echo in the hallways. No one was there. It was like a ghost town. And everyone. All the post production was in Hollywood or in the Valley. And we moved into there, and we had a great soundstage there, and it was great. But I see Josh and he goes, like, have you seen the show? I said, no, I'm going into spot it now. He says, well, it's not good. Can you get an orchestra of 150 guys or people and just put music all over it? So I said, well, Josh, I'm not going to fake it here. I've never written for an orchestra. I've played in them, but 150 is way too many. He says, well, then, what's a lot? And I said, 65. And that's what I got. I got an orchestra of 65. He says, okay, let's do that.

[B]

That's so funny. So he didn't like the episode.

[D]

Right.

[B]

I thought the episode was great.

[D]

It was totally great. But musical spotting is all. And sometimes I realize this, oh, this is not about the music. This is about they didn't get something when they were shot, and they'd like to make it work better, and how can we do that? So there's a big part of it that's not just story and everything story, but it's about, like, how can we smooth this over? How can we fix something?

[C]

Well, it's about getting the emotion. And I can't tell you how many times that's a really Fascinating insight that you just told us. But how many times I think about a scene where maybe the actors are having their moment, it's a love thing or it's sad or whatever it may be, and they want to pull the heartstrings. It's when that music comes up underneath it that really helps that wave crest to pull the emotion. And music can do so much where even if the emotion's missing, to bring emotion to the scene. So I'm sure he was looking for a little more emotion and swell of the heart. But I noticed that a lot, I think, would this scene be as moving to me if it were not for this queue of music? And then to do it the right way is like a brilliance. And to do it the wrong way, it becomes very jarring and obvious. I mean, music. I've seen so many movies and TV shows and documentaries where the music is just horrendous and it takes you away from it. But so making the music meld with the emotion and carry it even further is a great talent. And so you did a fabulous job with that, David.

[B]

And also, a lot of times music, you know, to the contrary is like. I was just watching a show the other night that I was, you know, that it got silent a lot. And I thought, oh, it's so rare, especially in network tv, where they allowed silence. You know, there was often a lot of, you know. And I feel like it leads the audience in ways that aren't necessary. So it's a balance, right? It's like, what's appropriate for this particular moment. But sometimes, like, when you do procedurals, you know, they're just wall to wall, you know, symphonic. Not symphonic synthesizer music, just constant. And it. I always feel like it does this piece of disservice and they underestimate the audience's ability to respond. You know, they feel like they have to lead them, you know, like, here comes the bad guy. Doo doo doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.

[D]

Well, that's how those shows work.

[C]

But that's what I was saying. If it's done wrong or, you know, gratuitously, it takes you away. But it's an art to it, to doing just enough, as you say, Rob, to do it at the right time. And, Rob, remember we talked last week in the show that I had that scene with Adam in the bar and there was no music.

[B]

Right. That's a perfect thing. Yeah.

[C]

I'd be interested to know why they made that choice. Do you know, David, you remotely remember that?

[D]

I don't remotely remember that. But sometimes I would say silence. Not in a scene like that. I would say, here's what I wrote. But it's really working without it, too. So sometimes that's a choice, but. And I think our show and our producers never wanted it to be obviously dramatic or overly dramatic. There was always a subtlety, and they were always playing the other side. Sicily may be an example where I really got to score like people score movies. And it's emotional and it's western. And for me, it was so exciting to hear my music played by an orchestra. And I only had a few days to turn that around.

[B]

What's that? I gotta remember, is that like a kind of Aaron Copeland thing going on there?

[D]

That's probably the biggest influence is Copeland and those scores. And so we had the 65 players, and there's a lot of drama before it. I didn't realize when you hire an orchestra, I guess they knew I was green. So certain players would come. Someone doesn't want to sit next to hit him. And I can't believe you hired this bass player. He's trouble. I said, look, this is my orchestra. We're going for it, you know. And the day before, the big orchestra contractor in town, the great Sandy Decrescent, called me up and said that someone from Seattle called and said that we pay everybody $150 at the door instead of union. And she's going like, they don't know who they're talking about. I said, no, Sandy, that's not going to happen. I guarantee you that we're fully union. Because it was different between the Seattle production and the la. And we got together on the Sony scoring stage and I had John Williams engineer, and it was just. Music is never more exciting than at that moment. You know, after post, it gets to be less and less and quieter and quieter. But the full orchestra on the Sony scoring set. I think it's now the Barbra Streisand scoring stage. It's just, you know, I don't get to do it enough. And in those days, the composer had parking spot number one. Now I'm parked a mile away.

[C]

But was that the season when you won the Emmy?

[D]

No, I didn't. I was nominated for a Grammy in Northern and. And I won BMI awards for Northern.

[B]

He won the EPI for. For the Emmy for Lucy and Desi.

[D]

Right. That was. That was like four years ago. Five years ago.

[C]

Okay, okay, got it.

[B]

So there's a couple things that I, you know, just because I know the audience likes this, you know, just Talking about, I mean, first of all, when I come out in that ridiculous hunting outfit and, and Shelly says, do you look like a Creamsicle? But also, again, once again, they, they. The. There's these self referential moments that happen throughout the show. And, and I think Ruthanne says to, to Ed, have you been watching Sane Elsewhere reruns with Josh grand and John Falzy created or co created. You know, so I think those are, those are always interesting that they're willing to have those moments. They, they, you know, they also the way they paid homage to Twin Peaks and, and other shows. I think it, there's something interesting about that that they were willing to kind of, you know, kind of look past the, the fourth wall, if you will.

[D]

Do you remember the episode where Josh breaks the fourth wall?

[B]

We talked about it. We did it.

[D]

Yeah, I remember almost a rebellion and we all had a conversation.

[B]

I think everybody, I think everyone in the, on the, on the floor, so to speak, the actors and the producers and directors and then the people in, in la, everyone was kind of like, wait a minute, this is jumping the shark. But it ended up being. And it just worked and it was a one off.

[C]

But the interesting thing about that Rob and David is that we broke the wall, the fourth wall. But we kept our characters names.

[B]

Yeah, it was fascinating.

[C]

Instead of breaking the fourth wall and becoming Rob and Jeanine. So it was kind of bizarre. And I think that they didn't even. No one even really thought about it. We talked to the writers like we, I don't know, we didn't really think about it. But if you're breaking the fourth wall and we're going to expose that, it's. We're really making a movie. It was interesting that we didn't even use our own, our, our real names.

[B]

So some of the other things that jumped out at me was man becomes the food of the. This is something Chris says. Man becomes the food of the divinity he worships.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

I love that line.

[B]

It's great, right? I also love when Joel howls and he says, I mean again, is it man against nature or man one with nature? Which is kind of the ultimate theme of the show. I love how he wrestles with that. And, and again. And just from Bill d' Elia's point of view, that shot of the bird on the examination table, I don't know if you guys caught that. The scene starts on the bird in the foreground and me in the background, kind of, you know, contemplative of what I've done. It's a great shot. And Joel says to Maggie at the end, it's the killing was great. It's the dying I couldn't take.

[C]

That's a great line, too.

[B]

Great line. Yeah. There's a lot of. Lot of meaning in this show. And David, you, as always, I feel like we could keep going, but we have to kind of wind it up. Unless there's anything you want to share before we do, we're going to close it out.

[D]

Just a tremendous amount of gratitude for you and the producers and everyone who sort of let me figure out how to do it on the job and grow with it. And it was a totally unique show. And after that, I didn't know where to go. I didn't get jobs for a while. And I realized, oh, I had this situation that was just really golden. Of course, I was lucky enough to have a great career to this day. So gratitude and what a great way to start. It was my school for learning how to write music for picture.

[B]

Well, you graduated and I adore you personally. I look forward to seeing you. I know we keep talking about writing a song. I hope we get to that. But thanks for coming on and to the audience, you know, thanks for bearing with Jeanine's technical difficulties, but she's a trooper and she rose to the occasion.

[D]

You embraced your inner Texan, your real Texan. I'm gonna say one more thing here that after the fires, and I don't wanna go into this, but, you know, we lost our home in the fires and moved and everything like that.

[C]

So sorry about that.

[D]

Thank you. So I was in a music store in Santa Monica and I was playing a guitar. Cause I needed to have something to write on. And I was buying this guitar, sitting on an amp. And into the front door comes Rob, and he's on the phone and just talking away. And he looks at me and says, oh, you won't believe it. I have Janine on the phone. Will you do our podcast? That's a short version of it, but there's a little bit of magic in coming to this point, you know. And Rob bought an electronic drum set. I have that guitar here. And, you know, sometimes things are meant.

[B]

To be, you know, that's a perfect way to end it. So. So thank you, audience. Thanks for tuning in. And David, I think we're gonna ask you to come back another time down the road. And if you think of a particular show, maybe the Sicily show actually is the one to get you back.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

We will ask you to come join us.

[A]

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.