S3E8: “Get Real” with Michael Katleman

Summary

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Northern Disclosure S3E8: “Get Real” with Michael Katleman

October 28, 2025 – Evergreen Podcasts
Hosts: Rob Morrow & Janine Turner
Guest: Michael Katleman, Director

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode revisits the Northern Exposure season 3 episode "Get Real," focusing on the enchantment of a circus visiting Cicely. Rob and Janine welcome director Michael Katleman for an in-depth exploration of the making of "Get Real," examining its distinctive magical atmosphere, behind-the-scenes challenges, and how the show's quirky, philosophical spirit comes to life both on and off the screen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic of "Get Real"

• Rob and Janine reflect on the episode’s enchanting mood.
  • Rob: “When Northern Exposure works … there’s just something really magical.” (02:00)
  • Janine: “The writing was once again, really top notch and profound and deep and funny and philosophical.” (03:02)
• The circus storyline provided a rich backdrop for visual and narrative creativity, with standout direction, cinematography, and acting all coming together.

2. Behind the Scenes: Directing Challenges

• Michael Katleman shares insights into the complexity of staging and filming the circus.
  • Prepping for the episode required choreographing numerous circus acts and extras: contortionists, stilt-walkers, and jugglers.
  • Katleman highlights the importance of “letting the magic play” via longer takes and fewer cuts (14:45).
• Complex Shots:
  • The memorable, single-take scene with Joel driving into town while memorizing medical jargon, timed so that Bill Irwin’s character (the “Flying Man”) appears to have ‘flown’ to the finish:
    • Rob: “If I screwed up one syllable, we had to go back to one and start again.” (18:20)
    • Michael: “Bill was at number one. As soon as you played that scene, he jumped in a car, sped around … changed his clothes … hauled ass, got to the end mark.” (19:23)
  • The logistical challenges included wrangling a speeding car, a contentious local police officer, and precise timing for dialogue and action.

3. Circus Casting & Collaboration

• Real performers incorporated, including Cirque du Soleil artists and the Jim Rose Circus (16:16).
• All circus performers functioned as extras, enhancing the episode’s atmosphere even when they weren’t the focus.

4. The Spirit of Collaboration

• Janine & Rob discuss the vital importance of collaboration between directors, actors, and crew.
  • Rob: “You knew when it was a good director … we want to be able to say, let’s breathe it, let’s feel it, let’s see how it all works.” (28:19)
  • Michael stresses open communication, flexibility, and making room for improvisation: “If the actors bump on it, there’s a reason for that. You can’t fight it.” (29:24)
• Passion behind creative disagreements is viewed as essential to making memorable art.

5. Standout Performances & Moments

• Cynthia Geary (Shelley) and John Cullum (Holling):
  • Their “big feet” subplot provided humor and emotional depth.
  • Janine: “That little monologue, nailed it.” (07:29)
• Marilyn’s Story:
  • Detailed focus on Elaine Miles' (Marilyn) understated but moving performance.
  • Memorable line: “I’m available but not interested.” (31:12)
  • Scenes featuring Marilyn's family, including her real-life mother as her on-screen mom.
• Bill Irwin as the Flying Man:
  • Multiple hosts praise his silent-but-expressive performance and his collaborative approach to choreographing his dance with the scarf.

6. The Magic of Northern Exposure’s Style

• Visual & Narrative Style:
  • Rob: “Northern Exposure was really part of the cinematizing of television … those moments are very cinematic.” (36:15)
  • The show matured to embrace “air” and silence—moments of quiet that signal confidence in story and character.
• Cinematography by Frank Prinzi:
  • Praise for lighting, camera movement, and visual storytelling (37:19).
  • Anecdote: Frank and Michael’s creative disagreement/clash over camera lens selection for a key scene (50:27-52:39).

7. Iconic “Bear in a Bar” Scene

• Memorable Visuals:
  • The notorious scene of a bear sitting at a bar evokes quintessential Cicely weirdness.
  • Michael: “Anyone that was around that bear was part of the bear team.” (43:21)
  • Practical effects and safety protocols described, with handlers dressed as extras.

8. Emotional & Thematic Resonance

• Artistry and Nostalgia:
  • Rob and Janine reflect on how the episode’s final wide shots evoke a vanished sense of communal play and childlike wonder (47:09).
  • “It has that feeling, just playing in the street, you could play in the street.” (48:04)
  • Michael: “It was such a freeing, interesting, odd world that was normal … just a slice of life.” (46:18)
• The ending emphasizes Northern Exposure’s talent for satisfying, poignant denouement (47:09-48:33).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Episode’s Spirit:

  • Rob: “When Northern Exposure works, you know, there’s a kind of … there’s something sweet about it. There’s a magical quality in spades.” (01:53)

• On Tackling Directorial Complexity:

  • Michael: “When you read the script, it’s one of those scripts you read to go, okay, this is a gem. How do I create this magical, special, beautiful atmosphere?” (14:45)

• On Collaboration:

  • Janine: “Don’t take no for an answer and hold on to your dream. Don’t give up before the miracle.” (11:11)

• On Cast Performances:

  • Rob: “Marilyn, when Bill Irwin first kind of proposes them going out, she’s got a great line. She says, ‘I’m available but not interested.’ Such a great moment.” (31:12)
  • Janine: “That little monologue, nailed it.” (07:29)
  • Michael: “I wanted to make sure we earned that smile [from Marilyn] … when it was there and you saw, wow, this could work, this relationship.” (34:30)

• On Filming the Bear Scene:

  • Michael: “Anyone that was around that bear was part of the bear team.” (43:21)
  • Rob: “Sounds like a joke. Bear walks into a bar.” (43:41)

• On the Show’s Vibe:

  • Michael: “It was such a freeing, interesting, odd world that was normal.” (46:18)
  • Janine: “That scene almost has a sense memory for me. … A feeling like I remember what it was like to just run around all day and the parents have to call you, like come home.” (47:09)

• On Creative Disagreement:

  • Michael: “Frank [Prinzi] and I … got in this discussion that went on for way too long. … We finally compromised and put it on a 100mm lens, which is right in the middle, and did the move.” (51:52)

• On Silence and ‘Air’:

  • Rob: “Early on in the series, they were scared of air … Now we’re in season three, the show's settling into itself and really confident.” (36:15)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:00] – Reflections on the magical feel of the episode
• [10:44] – Michael and Rob discuss career beginnings and lessons for aspiring filmmakers
• [14:45] – Choreographing circus scenes and the cinematic vision for the episode
• [18:20] – The infamous one-shot ‘driving’ scene with Bill Irwin
• [28:19 – 30:19] – Collaboration and the director-actor dynamic
• [31:12] – Highlights from Cynthia Geary and Elaine Miles' performances
• [43:21] – Behind the scenes: how the “bear at the bar” was filmed
• [46:18] – The unique, accepting world-building of Cicely
• [50:27] – Creative back-and-forth over the contortionist’s pullback shot
• [58:34] – Michael’s reflections & hosts’ emotional closing thanks

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Episode Flow and Tone

The episode unfolds with the warm camaraderie and offbeat humor that defines both the hosts and the original series. Rob and Janine bounce between fond reminiscence and technical analysis, often playfully ribbing each other or their guest. Katleman matches their energy, providing both granular filmmaking details and big-picture philosophical insights, always infused with an appreciation for the show's collaborative, quirky magic.

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Conclusion

"Get Real" is celebrated as an episode where all elements—writing, acting, direction, and technical craft—align to create the whimsical, poignant tapestry that defines Northern Exposure. The conversation highlights not just nostalgic memories but also the deep creative processes, collaboration, and “little bit of magic” that have kept the series beloved for decades.

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This episode is a must-listen for fans eager to uncover what made the circus episode—and Northern Exposure as a whole—so enchanting, on both sides of the camera.

Transcript

[A]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hello, everyone. I'm Janine Turner, and welcome to Northern Disclosure, our watch podcast about Northern Exposure. You can watch this anywhere on YouTube. You can listen to it anywhere you listen to podcasts. You can watch the show Northern Exposure on Amazon pr. And I am still nursing my mother back to health, so I'm in a rehab right now. I think we're in the other dimension. Like, they talk about quantum physics in this particular episode. Did he run all the way or did he not run all the way past your car? Are we in a parallel universe? Anyway, I'm with Rob Morrow, the oh so fabulous Rob Morrow. Welcome, everyone. And Rob. How you doing?

[B]

I'm doing excellent. Maybe you're in a David lynch episode.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like I'm in a David lynch episode.

[B]

Well, you look great. I'm glad. Thanks for being a trooper and, and sticking it out with us and, and making. Making the podcast today. It's a really. It's a. It's a. It's a. A lovely show. It's called Get Real, directed by our guest, the great Michael Cattleman, who I'm. We're both so excited to have. But this. This show had. You know, when. When. When Northern Exposure works, you know, there's a kind of. There's, there's. There's a. There's something sweet about it. There's a. There's a magical qual. It in spades. I mean, there was just something really magical. And, you know, I was watching it with my wife last night and Deben and she. At the last. At the end, that great moment where Elaine is watching the bus go away, and then you come walking down the street and then I. I'm trying to Juggle and the balls go flying. And there was. It was shot at. Probably at sunset. It looked so beautiful. And she said, you guys must have just had such a lovely time making that show because it just looked like a little bit of magic. And Cattleman captured that for sure.

[A]

I. I thought the show was simple. I think magical is the same word. I really. It just. The Cattleman did a beautiful job with directing this episode. The writing was once again, really top notch and profound and deep and funny and philosophical.

[B]

Diane. Diane Froff. Andy Schneider again.

[A]

26 episodes wrote this one. Yeah, it was really. I love talking to you when they talked about the quantum physics and, you know, parallel universe and the things of that nature. But the shots of. Of. Of, you know, the. The toward the end. And the cinematography. I mean, I think Frank did a phenomenal job of all those torches going off when the, you know, the. The. What is it called? The gal who's doing the legs over her head.

[B]

Contortionist.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. In the. In the leopard. And then behind her, you had these art. All these different kind of torches going and the magical quality. And they pull back on the shot and you see people. It was the combination of the writing and, you know, the acting, the cinematography, the directing and all that. This show, because it was a circus that came to town. The different elements of. Even the shots going down the street where they were balancing the chairs on their noses and whatnot. It must have been so much fun for Michael. So I can't wait to hear about that. But I thought about you, Rob, because you had to learn all that medical lingo. And I know.

[B]

Oh, my God, that one shot. We'll talk to Michael about this. Brilliant, Warner. But, you know, the thing that I want to ask you is, did you notice in the opening of the show that the circus is walking down the street? Right. I think Frank Prinzee was among them.

[A]

Oh, I bet he was. I think I remember that he did that.

[B]

I think. I think he was like. I was like, wait a minute. That's Frank in there. I can see him just saying, let me get in there.

[A]

I did not notice that, but that. I seem to recall that he did it. And, you know, it's funny, Rob, Frank.

[B]

Rinsey is our director of photography for those in the audience that don't know.

[A]

And he's been on the show. He won an Emmy for the show. Do you. For cinematography. Do you. Do you remember specifically filming any of these things? Because there are certain shows. I remember. I remember one thing about filming this show. And I'll tell you in 2 secs. But some shows I watch. Well, okay. I remember a lot of actually filming it. This, I don't really remember anything about filming it. I don't really remember have any tangible memories of any of it except one thing. I remember that Bill Irwin, who played the, the man who was decided to notti. Yeah, yeah. He wanted in a scene to not belt his butt.

[B]

His.

[A]

He did not buckle his belt. He wanted the belt to be loose. And I remember Mimi was like, well, that's, that's so weird. It needs to be belted. It needs to be belted. And Bill's like, no, no, no, I want it. It was like a character choice. And I just remember this character choice that he was making and it was really phenomenal. I remember that, but I don't really remember any of the rest as far as tangibly memories of it. But I love.

[B]

Bill Irwin was lovely in this episode. Just, just such a beautiful presence.

[A]

The dance, beautiful.

[B]

So beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, it was really fun. Do you remember filming anything about this episode?

[B]

You know, I do, I do. It's funny. Like I'm like you. There's times where I can't even remember it at all, as if I'm watching another person. And then there's times where I have these sense, kind of sense memories of like, you know, I think when it was physical, like I had to learn how to juggle or at least juggle badly. And so I remember doing that. I do remember I was such a fan of Bill Irwin. So I remember being in scenes with him and thinking how lucky I was to be, you know, playing with him. I remember, I remember some of those magical moments. I remember there's a moment where I, I, I, I stopped. Joel stops studying and walks and says, just goes into the circus and, and introduces himself to people. I remember that. You know, so there's, there's definitely moments for sure.

[A]

And it's just kind of interesting. There'll be certain shows. I definitely. Anyway, I'm kind of repeating myself, but I really remember it and others I don't. But I thought each character once again had something really amazing to do. I thought John Cullen once again was just this tour de force Broadway actor. Everything he does just has such depth. I thought Cynthia was amazing.

[B]

You know, Shelly, Cynthia was so good in this episode.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that speech when he says it's her feet. I thought she really. That little monologue, nailed it.

[B]

So hurt.

[A]

And I also talked to Michael. If it was that idea to give her that teddy bear, you know at that moment. And then I thought, am I even in this episode? But then the episodes that I have were hilariously written, you know, that you know, she doesn't mean a man. And you know, the girl is in the mist. And then that one line where at the, at the end where she, where she, she goes, I'm going back to him. You know, I forgive him. He did this, but I forgive him. Maggie says, gosh, when a man hurts me, I just, I just want to kill him.

[B]

So our guest today is Michael Cattleman, who's a great director, who I believe. I'm not sure of this he'll tell us. I think he may have made his debut directing on the show, but he went on to more most recently directed and produced FBI International 19 episodes. A great, great show that I was a big fan of Life on Mars. He was a director and producer, Cowboy Bebop directed multiple episodes and produced and was an ep, the Fix the Last Ship. And he started which is interesting as a, as an. I mean he was a musician, which we can talk about a little bit. But before after that he was an ad on such shows as iconic shows as China Beach, 30 Something, the movies Labamba, the Hanoi Hilton, Native Sun Jumping Jack Flash, Predator. So it's an interesting thing when it, when directors come out of being ads, they, they, they, they're usually very organized and together, which Michael was as well as having a great eye and, and I think his being a musician informed his sensibilities in a very unique way. So without further ado, Michael Cattleman, hello.

[C]

That was such a nice introduction. I think I'm going to leave now.

[A]

Hi Michael. It's so good to see you. And this is what a magical, beautiful episode this was. It was just you're directing all the shots, you know, the close ups and the pull aways and. And the magical quality of all the different. Everything that was. You had to orchestrate behind. It's gonna be fascinating talking with you today about the pre production meetings and how you just had. You had to really choreograph these shots that you did. So. But you're wonderful, you're brilliant. We loved working with you. We're so excited to have you with us today.

[B]

Was it. Am I correct in saying that you. This your debut as a director or no?

[C]

No, I actually started on China Beach.

[B]

You directed on China Beach, I see.

[C]

Yeah, that was my first and that was interesting journey to just to get that. And when I decided I want to direct, I was doing. As you said, I was doing a Lot of features. I became. I started as a musician and then got into the film business and really started as a pa, As a production assistant. And I was pretty scrappy, would do everything. And when I was trying to come up some, you know, I would do this on. In fact, I think it was. It was at Hannah Hilton, I'm not mistaken. I was like the 80, the animal wrangler and transportation. Just like anything they said, I go, I can do it. And then I figure it out.

[B]

That's it. You know, I often say to people that that's the way to. You know, I did a similar thing in the theater in New York. I took every single job, assistant, assistant to stage manager, assistant technical director, anything I could to sweeping the stage, cleaning the toilets, anything to get in the building. And it really led me to, you know, to my career. So I think that's. To there who's trying to break in. That's it. Say you'll do anything like Michael and me. Yeah.

[C]

And learn it after.

[A]

And don't take. Don't take no for an answer and handle that rejection and hold on to your dream. Don't give up for the miracle. I think that that's the biggest part of the auditioning is the hard part. The working is the easier part. The working, once you get the job, it's amazing. But getting the job.

[C]

Yeah, but you're right, what you said, Janine, is like. The psychological aspect is really tough because you have to. You have to really want it. It's a tough journey. But once you get there and once you have the opportunity to do what you're so, so passionate about, there's nothing like it in the world. There's absolute. Once you get that little taste, it's hard to go back.

[B]

So how is AD Being an AD how did that help you in terms of directing? Like, not just. I mean, I know you make contacts, which is obviously a good thing, but. But in terms of the skill as.

[C]

A director, my contacts were less so. I think. I think that.

[B]

Well.

[C]

I think that an important aspect of directing is when you ask people to do things. When you're setting up a shot and you're trying to figure out how to accomplish that shot, and you're asking the different departments to do their job, you need to know what they're doing. You need to know. You're asking for something that is doable or not doable or something. And there's a time factor. So I think when A.D. what started as a production assistant first and then becoming an aed, gave Me was, I'm able to go, okay, if I can think of a shot, I know if it's kind of doable, which I can tell you, a shot was very questionable on this episode. It was doable. But then you go in fully prepared and you know what to do. And if it's going awry, you can. You can sense it, you can see it immediately when something's going off and you try and pull it back. So it gave me the skillset to know, kind of at least have a general understanding of what all the departments did and when there were issues and when there weren't issues. So I wouldn't let that inform how I created a shot. But once I created a shot, that element would come in to go, okay, now what I've kind of made up, is this even doable or am I out of my mind?

[B]

How did you end up on Northern Exposure? Did you lobby for it or it just kind of came to you?

[C]

Well, I think, you know, I did a couple episodes. I was new and I went and met with Josh and John and they hired me. I mean, and I believe I met Cheryl too. Actually, I think I met with all three of them and they just. It was one of those things that we hit it off and I was fortunate enough, they gave me a shot because very. I was very new.

[B]

But you were so. I remember from the minute you showed up, you just had a great vibe and energy and I think everyone loved you. You know, I don't think there was anyone who didn't. And you just, you, you, you know, you were a pleasure to work with. Did you just do one show?

[C]

I think I did like three or four.

[B]

Three or four? That's what I thought.

[C]

I think so. I was trying to look back, going back at it, and I. I think there's three. And then I kind of worked with Brandon Falzy for a while.

[A]

Talk to us about when you read the script, what your thoughts were, because it's not your typical over the shoulder, close up master sort of. It was a choreography with a circus behind you all the time. Talk about that. And I think it's interesting too, that you know, the. I don't even know if Frank Prinzie, I guess he could have been, because y' all had to really work together. You heard me probably talking about the contortionist. That shot when you started in really close on her, then you pulled back and you had all those torches going and the lights that. I mean, it's those things take time to set up that kind of shot. But it was beautiful. And the way you choreographed that shot was beautiful. So it was. It's hard to think of all that on the spot. You had to have thought about a lot of that.

[C]

Oh, no, it was, well, well, I'll tell you, it was thought way ahead. And I wanted to, you know, reading the script, it's one of those scripts you read to go, okay, this is a gem. Like, how do I. And how do I create this magical special? I mean, you guys said it's beautiful atmosphere visually as well as character wise, but how do we create this? And so to me, it was like, less cuts. It was like, let the magic play as opposed to trying. Because I think when you get kind of cutty, it's like the sleight of hand. You can go, okay. Like when Chris was in and they were doing the dark gag and you didn't see the sleight of hand when they changed the age. It's like if you cut away from that, you would have gone, okay, well, we cut away and we, we. We missed that beat. So I think when you're setting up, you know, what is magic? Magic is something that. It's that illusion. So how do we support that illusion visually with your guys lives and your guys situation as well as that circus? And how does that interact and how does that work together? And so that was really fun. It was definitely a challenge. I mean, those kind of puzzles I love. And so those things. When you first read the script first, I always read my first time I read it, I'm a fan, I'm an audience member, I'm a fan. So I don't even think about that. I'm just going, oh, my God, this is a great story. And then I can help and I can figure out if the things that are bumping me story wise, I can kind of try and adjust that. But then when you start thinking of the nuts and bolts, you're like, wait a minute, we have to build a circus.

[A]

Seven day. What do we shoot? Was it eight days?

[B]

Eight days.

[A]

And to do it on eight days.

[C]

But we built a circus. So the first thing we did is I looked around for really interesting, eclectic circuses. And the one that I found was the Jim Rose. I don't even remember them. They ended up playing Lollapalooza. But Jim Rose Circus was this cult circus in the 90s, all sideshows. I don't know what I was thinking, but it was like, well, that would be a good idea. So we went to Seattle and we went and saw Them. Met with them, which was amazing. But they were more like. They had contortionists. I wonder if she. That woman actually came from them. I'm not sure, but it was, I think.

[B]

Did we have some Cirque du Soleil people in there?

[C]

Yes. Yeah, she might have been from Cirque du Soleil.

[B]

She looked like she was from Cirque du Soleil.

[C]

Yeah, she was incredible. But it was looking at that, going, okay, we have to build a circus. And so that was a big, heavy lift. Is trying to find this. The characters that work together. So they looked really interesting. They had great personality and they had acts that, as you said, Janine, you know, you could just use as extras, as walking by, you know, on their hands or balancing a chair or doing whatever it is, but not even nod to it. It's just a way of life for them.

[B]

So I know the shot that you were talking about was, I assume, was the one. The one, or that you thought, what could it be done? It's a great moment. I'll just set up for the audience. Joel is. Is driving into town and he's challenged himself with. With learning all of this. These medical techniques so that he can, you know, up his game when he gets back to New York. So wherever we see it, whenever we see him, he's. He's memorizing these tracks of medical jargon. And he's driving into town, running. Running his memorization, seeing if he, you know, just testing himself. And he's got the book on his. On the. On the seat next to him. And he's kind of looking down. He checks that he said the right term. And he stops and he sees Bill Irwin, who's plays Bilotti, who's the. The flying man, who's courting Marilyn. And he ask. Asks if Bill Irwin is kind of stretching, getting ready to run or something. And Joel asks if he can give him a ride. And Bilotti says, no, no, no, or he waves him off because Bilati doesn't speak. So Joel drives through town. This is all one shot right over, over. Over my left shoulder. The camera's on the. On the truck. And then I drive into town and I keep running my lines. I'm running my lines. I'm running my lines. It takes about, I don't know, probably at least a minute of screen time, maybe more. And when I get to town, still one shot. Bill Irwin is there already. And so it's. The illusion is that he flew there, that it works so beautifully. I'm sure I don't remember, but I'm sure I can't imagine. You know, it's the kind of thing where if I screwed up one syllable, we had to go back to one and start again.

[A]

And you had so much dialogue.

[C]

So much dialogue.

[A]

When we think about the flying man, I didn't know if that meant, like, you know, swinging, flying like that, or does he just fly?

[C]

No, he flies.

[B]

Yeah, but did you. So. So how did you come up with.

[C]

That, the best story? Because, again, in the spirit of what I mentioned before, I didn't want to cover it. That would have been too easy to go, oh, he's there. And it's cut. Now, you would just do it with cg. I could hide a cut. So it's like I was trying to figure out how to do this as a oner. So what we set up was you were. If you remember, you were being towed, and Bill was at number one. And as soon as you played that scene, he jumped in a car, sped around. They changed his clothes so he was sweaty. He hauled ass, got to the end mark, and then you're standing there when you got there. So it was one choreographed shot. Now, here's the thing, is that, as you said, every time we had to go back to one, we had to go around because it was a huge trailer around the entire town all the way back. So this was quite the undertaking. And it's one of the shots as it's not succeeding. You're like, what have I done? Why are we doing this? But the best part was I. Don't you remember this? But there was a cop there. I. Officer Mike. So Officer Mike was the one cop in town that had kind of. Sometimes he would get a little contentious with him. I think he didn't like all the tourists coming in or whatever it was. But he came out and we had a permit to do everything. And he sat there with a speed guy. And because. Because Bill's car was exceeding the speed limit to get to one, he tried to shut us down. And he said we were speeding. It was. It was unbelievable. As we're trying to do this, I think he pulled. I think he's tried to do this, like, after, like, five takes on. And I remember I refused to stop. Like, we're not stopping. I think Jim Charleston might have been my ad, if I remember right. And we're both. We're not stopping. And the cops, like, it became a thing.

[B]

All the stories of Officer Mike are so funny. I mean, that's amazing. And I do remember I probably had to end up doing ADR on that stuff because the car must have made noise as he sped off.

[C]

Yeah. And we didn't want any, any, any thought, there's a car there. But that worked. That was so hard on YouTube because the camera's right there. You had so much jargon to do. It had to time out perfectly. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

That's a fascinating behind the scenes story. I mean, just the architect of the speeding car going around so he could end up at the end in one single shot. And then the police officer, Mike, trying.

[B]

To shut you down with the speed gun.

[A]

I was directing the short film that I directed, and I remember I was in it too. So I decided to do at my ranch. I had a horse, I had extras, I had myself. And then I'm trying to, like, set the shot, and then the phone rings and it's the hotel saying that one of the crew members, Poodle had destroyed the room. You know what I mean? It's like 110 degrees. And I'm like, yeah, okay. So it's just the making of a movie. That's what makes it. But when did you do, when did you choreograph that? When did you think about that shot? Was it in the production meeting?

[C]

No, all in prep. Like, in prep. I love, like, prep, to me is the best because again, you can sit there and you. You can just let it go.

[A]

Who are you with in prep?

[C]

Well, it depends. If I'm doing storyboarding, I'll have my DP there with the storyboard artist. But when I'm doing my initial conceptual, a design of the arc of a script, I like to be alone because again, I'm. My camera, I think, needs to be motivated by the characters and motivated by the point of view of the scene. So there's so much thought that goes into as opposed to just a cool shot. So I'm. I like to do. I just. I love that part. So I don't. I like being alone. So you can just get into it. And I put things around, I play and I talk to myself. I used to do this. It's pretty funny. And I. I guarantee I did it there. But I used to do it in restaurants because I kind of like chaos. So I'll go into a restaurant and I'll get a, you know, like a diner or something. I'll sit at a table. I haven't done this quite a bit of time and I'll do all that. I'll sit there and I'll stare and I'll start talking to myself. As I'm playing the different parts. And I remember I was. When I was in Vancouver one time, someone came up, the witch came up to me and complained and said, you're really kind of freaking these people out.

[B]

Do you use scriptation?

[C]

I love scriptation.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Kidding me. It's the best thing ever.

[A]

What is scriptation?

[B]

It's an app for. For scripts that, you know, it's every department. It's great for every department, but I helped them develop it.

[C]

I know that. I remember that.

[B]

But they. It helps you.

[A]

You.

[B]

You can. You can. You know, I don't know if you do this, Janine, but as an actor and, and most specifically as a director, I write tons of notes in the script, you know, and then once I'm directing, I'm writing shot lists and I'm, you know, usually in the old days, I would add a piece of blank paper so that I could draw up, do my drawings and, and, and then put in the, the, you know, the set diagrams and all that stuff. But with scriptation, you can just all do it seamlessly. And, and what, what made me fall in love with it initially was that, you know how you get six drafts before you start shooting. So I was always rewriting my notes. My weekends would be spent rewriting my notes. Time I'd get to shooting, I didn't even have time to rewrite them. So I'd be walking on a set with three scripts trying to remember which one had the note. And scriptation takes all your notes and moves them seamlessly to the next draft so you don't have to do anything. And it also keeps them in one place so if you lost your script, you just have to, you know, get a new iPad and you're. You're back in business. Anyway. I don't want to do a commercial for scriptation, but I'm glad you use it because it really. It's a. It's a game changer.

[A]

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[C]

No, it's a game changer. And also just to be creatively, because you can doodle on it, like you said, you can erase it easy. You put thoughts down. You can do more stream of consciousness. Because I think when you're working on a script, you go, oh, do I want to write that in my script? And now you can. The minute you have a thought, you can do it. And then you cross reference that thought. So. So when I back to this one, I'm trying to think of all those. You really. It starts with the characters and the story. And so you're on. How do I tell the story? Like, it's not to be master. Over. Over Matt, you know, it's like, what shot? How do you evoke emotion out of the audience? What are you trying to tell? Whose point of view is it? How you try. There's so many things that go into it, so it's hard to do with someone else because rightfully so, all those people have their own agenda. Like, the DP wants to make it as pretty as possible, and he's. Which they should. They. They want to. You know, they may have a certain agenda they're trying to do. And every department, I find, is doing the best they can. Like the Mimi story, you said with wardrobe, it's like she wanted that belt buckle, but Bill wanted that belt unbuckled. They both had their heart, was in the right place, but it was different agendas there. And Which I always find fascinating because it's the director's role, I think, to welcome that, like, because that's healthy, but then be able to decipher and go, okay, we still have to tell this story. And this is. This is the point of view of the story. So that works. That doesn't. That works. That doesn't. Let's do it. That's, to me, the fun of it as it gets to set as, you know, we bring new people on till you guys, you know, come set. You guys have a whole, you know, point of view, which is. I love at that point, because then it's totally fresh. You guys know the characters better than anyone. And then if you've done as a director, your homework, right, you should be able to receive all that.

[B]

And so my guess is, as a musician, improv would help you As a director. Right. Because you are kind of. You do once that. When you're right, once the actors show up, they're bringing in all these notes and. And rifts and stuff that you didn't expect.

[C]

And if you don't. And if you don't hear that, like, the best ideas. And you have to be. You have to know what you're making well enough that when that idea comes through, you know, I can't tell you times I've gone, oh, my God, that's amazing. Absolute. So you can still keep the story on point, but that informs it and it becomes a much better story. That. I love that process.

[A]

And, you know, Rob to explain and Michael to explain that to the listeners a little bit more. As we're kind of working through this, directors have their vision, their thoughts. They're kind of, as you're saying, Rob, you know, you're shotless and all. But then Rob and I, you know, I remember we would walk on the set and. And you knew when it was a good director or a director that was maybe, you know, gonna not be a collaborative spirit. Because we, as actors, we walk out there and we don't know often when we're blocking it want to be pigeonholed into a specific thing. We want to be able to say, let's breathe it, let's feel it. Let's see how it all works. But then there has to be this sort of, you know, coming together meaning of the minds, where you get a little bit of what the actors may say. It's not comfortable for the. I don't think I want to sit here. Or can I get up and walk around here? Talk about that, Michael. Because when you have kind of your vision and then the actors come in and say, oh, that just feels. I don't think I could do that. Or they might say, great. It feels completely perfect. But that. And we have so little time.

[C]

Well, I think that, like, again, if the directors thought it through properly and they're. If they're specific about certain blocking and their blocking is motivated by character, performance, story, then it should be in the right zone. And if it's not, if. If you guys. If the actors bump on it, there's a reason for that. You can't fight it. There's a reason. So then you have to hear that and go, okay. And you explain what the goal was. Like, if the goal was to create angst. And then that's really, to me, the discussion. I could say, well, I felt there should be angst in this scene. And then you may have a much better way of doing that because you have to sell it. At the end of the day, you have to sell it and you have to make sure it's yours and you feel good about it. So if we know that, okay, you're going for angst, and that makes sense, I can get there. But what if I do this and this is this instead? And then, because we're going for the same goal and you guys feel more comfortable with it, I find that that's. You can't really lose. You can only win there.

[B]

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole, but there are these actors that don't want to do what a director says just because they said it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're like, that's hard. Because you're like, okay. I had an actor once say to me, my character doesn't sit. And I was like, really? Really? He doesn't sit.

[C]

Right. Okay. Right.

[A]

Oh, I've seen that. I've. I've seen episodic, you know, directors come in and the actors just woo. It's. It's. It's a real battle.

[B]

That's. That's hard. It's hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is hard because then you. Because. Because what we're talking about is logic and reason and the best idea winning. But when you have someone, someone who's just being stubborn because they have issues with authority or whatever, you know, then. Then that's a real challenge.

[C]

Yeah, I've been in those situations for sure. Those are. Those, you know, can't win.

[B]

No, you can't really win. But so, so, yes, I remember saying to an actor, okay, tell me what you want to do. Just tell me what you want to do. I'll do it, you know, because I couldn't. But I want to talk a little bit about Marilyn's performance, which was so lovely. Right. Janine and Cynthia's. I mean, Marilyn' when Bill Irwin first kind of proposes them going out, she's got a great line. She says, I'm available but not interested. Such a great moment. And she kind of doesn't. She just resists him and then finally gives over. And there's such a. You know, I love when the characters we had last week when we had a big episode involving Peg, when we start to see other dimensions of some of the secondary characters and they're moving and just as moving as all the other characters. And this was a lovely one. I mean, going home. I don't know if we'd been in Marilyn's home yet. And that by the way, the woman playing her mother is actually her mother.

[A]

Oh, and I want to say something about that. I was so grateful. Rob, you remember all this, right? That you had the four actors around the round table, and they were actually around the room. The table. You know, so many times directors want to cheat and put all the. All the actors kind of on this side of the table. No one would ever eat like that. You know, it's like, wait, people sit across from the table for each other. And I. I looked at that, I thought, oh, you actually did that. Which creates much more coverage. You know, you have to go around in so many different angles. But I. And I thought, oh, yay. You know, they're all. They're all actually around the table. But that was the interesting thing about the show. You had this kind of mystical, magical, creative opportunity. But you also, as you keep saying, Mike, you had a lot of character. You had Cynthia's character and John Column's character and Marilyn's character. And even my character kind of came in and had. That was kind of touching in certain kind of ways with. She's playing tough, but she really didn't feel tough. And then Rob's character trying to, like, create, you know, Fleischmann something new. It was really, I think, a great blend of all. Everything.

[B]

How about the Cynthia with the big feet? Like, where. Just. I wonder if Cynthia or Shelley. I don't think Cynthia had particularly large feet. Feet?

[C]

I don't think so.

[A]

Well, symbolic of one of those little things that can just ruin a relationship, potentially.

[B]

Size 11.

[A]

Yeah, right. Men's 11.

[C]

I know. That was great. And the gum on the shoe when she put her foot up.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Did you. Was it your idea that she hold the teddy bear?

[C]

I actually don't remember at all, but that was such a great moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They were so good. And John is amazing. I mean, they were both so good. It was such a great, beautiful argument.

[B]

I love that when she. You know, when Shelley gets to be strong because she's so often not that strong, you know, and so she really was like. She just took her stand, you know, and it was. And it was. Whatever. It just bugged her that. I mean, she was so hurt when he said she had big feet. She played that so well.

[A]

And one of my favorite Marilyn moments, Elaine Miles, was when he was doing the dance, which she did so beautifully, you know, with. With the. With the ribbon or whatever. And then you kept cutting that look on her face, and she had that smile on her face.

[C]

That's how I say that's like. I think the one time she smiled. Great.

[A]

And you cut to it, like, three times.

[C]

Yeah, it's like. Because the whole time she's so deadpan, and she's so playing it, and it's hard to get. And I thought she was. And so I wanted to make sure we earned that smile that when it was there and you saw, wow, this is. This could work, this relationship. And the way she communicated and that was just the beautiful writing, too. Is that how she had those conversations and understood them? And then when Joel said, you guys talk, and she's like, yeah, what are you talking about? She's like, normal things.

[A]

Well, how. She knew exactly. She knew exactly what he was saying, and he didn't even do sign language or anything. He would just sort of do emotion. She would know exactly what he meant.

[B]

How did that dance with the scarf come about? Do you remember? Is that written that way or.

[C]

If I recall, it was written that he dances with a scarf. But then we pretty much put it together on set. And Bill is also a choreographer, so he had a big say in that. You know, he was. We did that together, he and I, and that just evolved. Yeah, he was amazing. But that dinner table, too, that scene with Marilyn's family was one of those, I thought was just a fun scene because we just let it breathe. You cap. We were able to capture how uncomfortable and odd it was. And the best part of that is, like, I think the audience, at least I even felt when I was rewatching it because it had been so long. I'm going, oh, I wonder how this is going to go. This is so uncomfortable. This is like, this is not working. This is crazy. And then her mother leans in and goes, I like him. It was so good because she was just like. It was just a great moment. Like, wow, this is. It's just peaceful. It's a wonderful little time. We don't have to. To fill up the space of talk. We all are relating on an even playing field. It's, you know, and even. We're communicating without words. It was just so great, which is.

[B]

A real evolution in the show itself, because I think as it went on, you know, I have, I, I. I don't know if I coined the phrase, but I feel like Northern Exposure was really part of the cinematizing of television. And, you know, those moments are very cinematic. They're not typical television. You know, they're, they're. They're. Early on in the series, they were scared of air. They were scared of any kind of Air. They'd stuff. You know, we'd ADR anytime we were on our back and there was a pause, they'd just fill it with some jargon. And even if it didn't work. And so it was kind of. I feel like, you know, we were talking about in the last episode, too. Now we're in season three. This show settling into itself and really confident, you know, that it could do something like this show. And again, you know, we do it all the time. But hats off to Woody Crocker, because those sets, you know, those. And the lighting that. And I'm sure Frank had a lot to do with that too. But all the magic lighting in the background was just so beautiful.

[A]

It was. And you did a great job moving the camera. You know, Michael, we talked a lot about. One of my pet peeves is when the camera becomes the star, you know, or even the lighting. Like, let's just. It, like, I have a window on me right now, but with my backs to it, my face would be completely dark. It's like there's, like, too much realism, if you know what I mean. But you did this perfect blend that the camera was creative and moved and was fluid, but it didn't take you out. Sometimes I think the camera becomes breaking the fourth wall almost. You become too aware of it. And you did a wonderful job of letting the camera tell. Help build the emotion of what you were trying to say or the creativity of the magic. Magic of what was trying to happen. But, you know, I have a question for y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

At the end, when Maggie sits down.

[B]

With the fortune teller, which is such a sweet moment. Janine, you're. You were so sweet that your face was just like you had nowhere else to turn.

[C]

You're like, I'm not gonna be happy, am I?

[A]

I'm not gonna be happy, am I?

[B]

No.

[A]

And you know what? I had. I could tell even in that wide shot where everybody's leaving and. Oh, and I think someone's hugging beside me, maybe on the street, Shelly and Holly. And they're hugging beside me, and I'm all alone. And it was interesting because I'm always trying to bring the emotion, the emotion behind it all. And I didn't have any kind of coverage on that at all. It was a big wide shot, but I thought I could still feel it. I could feel how Maggie was feeling at that moment. Which is why it's important, I think, as an actor to bring that emotion to the master shot. Because there are a lot of people that say, save it for the Close up. And we'll save it for the close up. But I could. That's a good example of why bring it to the table for the master. Because I could really sense that emotion.

[B]

But what.

[A]

My. What my question for you is, when the fortune teller was reading and she says, that's it. Because she didn't say much, right. It's like, you. Like, you're mechanical. And then she started saying, oh, well, you're gonna find a man, you're gonna marry, and you're gonna have three kids really soon. You think she was making that up?

[C]

No, no, no. I think she believed she knew it. But I think there was a lot in there that she didn't want to tell you.

[B]

Right. You can see that look on her face.

[A]

So she really saw that she was going to get married, but she wasn't going to be happy. That's what Maggie picked up.

[C]

She left that part out.

[A]

And then she went up to that complete stranger and started saying, I'm not going to be with you.

[C]

That was great. Yeah, I forgot about that part. That was fantastic.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, God. I just keep wanting my clothes to change and my hair to grow. He was like, oh, my God, those clothes were so horrible.

[B]

Horrible.

[A]

I mean, it was just like, it'll evolve. It all starts to get a little better.

[C]

You brought up hope. Make sure you get your performance in the wide shot. And I think that goes back to the director. I think the director has to explain what the plan is. So if the director says, look, this is just gonna play almost big, wide, this tableau, so we can tell all the stories at once at the end, then, you know, that's gonna happen. But they can also say, look, I plan only to be in this for a millisecond. I just want to set it up, but then I want to get in. So I think that goes back to just good communication on the set and having a plan, rather than just kind of shooting a bunch of stuff and hoping it. Because, you know, you just want to make sure that if everyone knows what's going on, you get those best performances.

[A]

Because what really matters is well said. And a lot of times, if the directors don't say that to you, you know, it's good to ask, like, is this. Are you going to do any coverage on this? Because then you know what. How to save your performance.

[C]

And that's fair. You can't be expected to do something 30 times. You know, I wouldn't want, you know, you. That's.

[A]

Oh, I have. I've had to do it let's just.

[C]

Say when you do it, it should be. It should be because of some really horrible reason. It should be the normal.

[A]

No, no, I know. Well, a good director will save that. Because like on Cliffhanger, that scene with the horses, we filmed that scene, that scene, one scene, for like 14 hours. It was very emotional. And so I had to hold that in every shot. It was just really kind of crazy.

[B]

But anyway, so what else do you remember? When you were watching the episode, what else jumped out at you?

[C]

You. I don't know. I think that. I think that it was just a great crossing and a good kind of just melding of these two worlds. And it was really lovely seeing that circus and all these free spirits bring out that in you guys. You know, that everyone kind of bounced off each other. And there's this. You know, and I think that was the great thing about Northern Exposures. You take this situation, that it was a big fish out of water situation. You take. Because the entire town was almost that. And you take that and you go in this. Where maybe it would have been a different outcome. They touched everyone in that town, pretty much.

[B]

That's a good way to put it. That's funny, because I couldn't figure out why. I mean, the show felt unique unto itself. And I think that's a great way to put it, that the whole town was a fish out of water. You know, it's interesting with the dog at the end.

[C]

How about the dog grabbing it at the end?

[B]

So great.

[A]

Oh, and wait, wait. There was a bear in the bar. What about the bear in the bar? How did you film that?

[C]

Well, the bear actually was on the street walking up. The bear was in a handful of scenes and. Which was kind of amazing because I think that I did a show that had. I did a show called Zoo, which had a million animals, you know, and it's so difficult to do. And I remember looking back at that and looking at that bear in there and it was just hanging out with everybody. Like, it was just. It was amazing.

[A]

No, but how did you. How did you film that? Because there was a bear right next to someone at the bar, eating. You didn't have a bear that close to an actor, really, did you?

[C]

We did. I think we did back then.

[B]

Yeah. I think the bear was chained, though, underneath the lens. Yeah.

[A]

Well, it doesn't mean the bear couldn't reach over and just claw you to death or take a bite.

[C]

No bad things could happen.

[B]

But it was a trained bear. But they were very. I do remember when they Had a bear. Because we've had it in other episodes. Everyone you're told. I remember the call sheet having big bold letters. You know, do not make any loud noises on the. The set. Be quiet. Don't approach the bear. Don't wear perfume. And there was a cage right off the set where the, where they would. The bear would go between takes and.

[A]

But I've got to go back to the bear. You didn't just put a extra next to the bear. That was probably the bear handler.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no. We had the trainers dress up, so anyone that was around that bear was part of the bear team.

[A]

But I mean, how often do you see a bear sitting at a bar? I mean, quintessential.

[C]

Just hanging out, just hanging out. And no one looks. And that's the beauty. No one looks twice. No one's like.

[B]

Sounds like a joke. Embarrassed. Walks into a bar.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly. So fun.

[A]

Rob does. Michael Rob. Does it make you want to just go back and refilm this? What a joy, right? What happy days.

[C]

It really was. It really was because you were so free.

[B]

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[B]

That last scene made me, you know, there were just. Look, you know, I hate to be Pollyanna because there were hard difficulties making this TV show over five, six years, but there was so much joy and, and appreciation. And I could just tell in that moment at that, that last shot, the weather was perfect. You know, we weren't cold because we were wearing lighter clothes. The, the light was beautiful. It was, you know, there's something great about. We were talking about wide shots, but there's something so freeing for us as actors when we're in a wide shot, because when you're in a close up, you know, you can't go like that. You know, you have to kind when you're in A wide shot, you can do anything. So it almost feels like you're not acting, you know, I wasn't acting. I was just playing with balls on the street. And a dog came and. And. And the light was perfect. And you think, wow, we're making something here that is, you know, an entertainment with hopefully some. Some artistic, you know, ideals, you know, involved.

[A]

And.

[B]

And we're getting paid, and we're. And we're living this. We're in this beautiful place. And I could just feel that coming off the screen.

[C]

I think that that. I mean, you nailed it. And I think that that was a big part of Northern Exposure. And as far as coming in to direct and being part of that world is that it was such a freeing, interesting, odd world that was normal. So it wasn't like this world's odd. It was odd. When you look at it, there's a bear at the bar. But for the filmmaking and the story, this is just a slice of life. And I think that when you can capture that slice of life, I go, this is what happens when you look down the other street and you go to this town. That's what was so beautiful about it. There's no. It wasn't judgy. It was just what it was. There was, you know, whatever relationship was there. It's what it was. And we didn't judge it. We didn't think about it. It's just life as it is. And if it's big feet or it's someone that doesn't talk, you know, it's just the way it is. Which was so fun to do the.

[A]

Shot that Rob's talking about at the end, there were so many. I remember Rob and I were in the van together, and I was talking about how wonderful the show was. And Rob's, like, one thing they know how to do in the show are endings. You know, the. The endings are always really fabulous. But in that shot, the way I remember, I kind of jumped. I kind of started to play around a little dog, you know, I did a little something fun there at the end, too, as you. As you run by Rob. But doesn't it remind you of growing up in the 70s, you know, before iPads and iPhones and television, like, sucked the soul out of all of us? I mean, in the 70s, we could go out and run and play and be in the fall air and be in a town, a community, where it was fun to do, and that's just sort of dissipating. And I think that's one of the fun things at Least our generation. That scene almost has a sense memory for me. A feeling like I remember what it was like to just run around all day and the parents have to call you, like come home. But not on your cell phone, for sure.

[B]

No, it has that feeling just playing in the street, you know, you were playing. You could play in the street.

[C]

But then I think when that bus pulled away and you have a little goodbye from Bill and see everyone and doing what they're doing. To me, it was so nice just seeing that they left. But they had a lasting effect. Like, as they left, everyone was touched by this traveling circus. And did their bus really break or were they there to just loosen everybody up? You know, were they. Were they put there for a reason?

[B]

Well, that's the cosmic. Kind of. The cosmic thing that always informs so much of the show. Did you. You, I'm sure, weren't involved in the casting of Bill Irwin, but did you talk a little about.

[C]

No, I was. We talked about.

[B]

Oh, you did?

[C]

Well, I just remember. Maybe I wasn't intimately involved at that time, but I remember we had names coming up and trying to figure it out.

[B]

Did you know him?

[C]

I didn't, but we wanted someone that was a mime. Like, that was. Our goal, is to find someone that was a mime. Someone that was a dancer. Someone that was really good with their movement. So if they weren't a mime, just a dancer, just so they could be fluid with everything and make that as a language and try and be as. As communicative as they could with, you know, just in a lyrical way. And so Bill checked all those boxes we got. Bill, I remember we were ecstatic. That was like, such a win.

[B]

And he was fun to work with. Was that amazing?

[C]

Lovely. Yeah. I mean, come on. He was on Sesame street, right? How can you know? He was fantastic.

[B]

He comes back for one more episode.

[A]

Maybe the belt thing was on that episode. Because I seem to think it was a town hall or something when that happened.

[B]

Right. Because I don't remember it from this episode.

[A]

Yeah. I kept looking to see if there was a belt that wasn't done up in this show. I didn't see it.

[C]

Yeah. I didn't remember the belt moment.

[A]

And I just marvel again to have created all of this in eight days.

[C]

Well, I'll tell you something interesting. I was trying to remember what shot it was. And I think it was the shot with the contortionist that we start close on her face and we pull back, we ran, we lost the light. We were shooting that in In Roslyn. And we lost the light, if I remember right. So we had to put that on stage. And so we basically took out the walls in the bar. We took out the big wall and built all that on stage back at our sets.

[B]

Wow. I have no idea. I could not. It was so seamless because it cuts against. Wow, that's amazing.

[C]

That's Frank Prinzian. So we ended up. Up. We. I'll tell you a funny little behind the scenes on that too. But we ended up pulling back and we pulled that one wall that was the back wall to the bar, so the bar was still in. And we set up a huge piece of track and just did a pullback and played it in one shot. So I did all the other stuff, the wide stuff in town. I remember losing the light. It was just a nightmare. Like, okay, we'll stage it between Woody Frank's amazing lighting. But it was pretty funny because Frank and I, we kind of butt heads a little. I love Frank. And actually, I brought Frank. And Frank shot another series with me. He did Life on Mars with me. And so Frank and I remained close. But on that shot, we had such a different perspective of how that should be done. So I wanted to take a 300 millimeter lens, which is a really long lens, so the actors would be way far away, and then do the same move, pulling back. So I had them pull the wall and everything. Frank, because he didn't like that. I want to use the 300 millimeter. And we would be like, just going like that. And that's fun in a good way. I love him. He goes, okay, let's put a 28 on sticks right here, which is the widest lens on sticks with no movement. I'm like, what? So we ended up getting in this, I'll say, a discussion that went on for, like, way too long. It was way too long. We were both being such brats. And we both were like, like, adamant that our way was right. Everyone's kind of just waiting for these two children to stop arguing. So we finally decide to do it. We completely compromised and put it on 100 millimeter lens, which is right in the middle, and did the move. And I remember I was laughing so hard afterwards. Like, what we looked at. What was that about?

[B]

It's funny, though, like. Like, I think I re clocked when I was watching the episode that moment, because I remember thinking everything. There was a lot squeezed into the frame and it didn't seem proportional to when the wide shots were. So I was like. I didn't know. I couldn't tell you exactly what happened, but it definitely caught my eye. I was like, something's not kosher here.

[C]

You could be more. Right. And I kept. When I was watching again, I'm going, wow. I overcorrected there. And I remember I kept putting people in. Brought back just the memory because I was seeing the backing, which looked like stage. So it was like some plants and a thing, and they hung up, you know, some, you know, black set piece, you know, And I was like. Because it had to look night. And we strung the lights. I'm going, oh, this is what kept throwing people in. And before you know it, everyone's like, this next.

[B]

It's such a. You know, the fear of, like, when we're, you know, for the audience, you know, it's not unusual for us to be. Or for anyone when they're shooting, to lose the light, as Michael said, and have to pick up a shot in another location. I did a movie, my first movie, called Private Resort with Johnny Depp and me. And we're in a scene, and we shot one side of the scene with me with the Atlantic Ocean behind me. And then we shot the reverse on Johnny with the Pacific Ocean. We shot that in California with the Pacific. And then it cuts together and it's seamless.

[C]

Like, you never know.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you know, I have to tell you, though, it's. Once again, it's. It's. It's intriguing to hear all that went into that shot that it was on two. There was. One was on location, one was on the set. I had no idea, because it really made an impression on me, I think, of the whole thing. That's one of the shots that I remember the most. The scene that I thought was that the most magical. So it worked.

[B]

Right. Which is also great. Janine. It's like, why, you know, someone like Michael has to fight you. You know, you had to fight for that shot. I mean, I don't know if you had to fight to pick it up, but you had to get your vision. And in DPs, it's a tough. It's a tough dynamic with a D. I bet you in subsequent episodes, you had less difficulties with Frank. Right. I think when. When DPs, when DPs first encounter. Director especially a young, inexperienced one, they realized really tend to test them to see either unconsciously or consciously.

[C]

Yeah. No, Frank's. And Frank's lighting is absolutely beautiful. She can't. Like, again, I said earlier, it's like everyone has an agenda. It's not a mean agenda. It's agenda. And I do want a DP that what they care about most is making it as beautiful as possible. Then, you know, we'll crush their soul and their heart when we have to change this shot. But you want every person in every department trying to bring their au.

[A]

Well, I would take passion people that. You know what, I love working with Rob because I always felt that he was passionate about making it as a fellow actor, of bringing everything he could to that moment. As I was, I was like, completely committed to every scene that I did. I would rather have passion, right, and have a discussion, you know what I mean, like you and Frank had, than have someone that just kind of shows up, let me do it, and I'm gonna go and go back to my trailer and get a massage. You know, there's someone that doesn't really care about what they're doing. And that's the. That's the dynamic that. That you would hate to lose that. I mean, you always, obviously have to keep it within confines and all that kind of stuff. But I mean, passion is a beautiful. Passion could be a beautiful thing. And it's wild to think of in the arts. And when you're asking people to think emotionally and creatively, to then want to stifle that and everybody and say, oh, you need to behave, behave this way. Because when you do that, you stifle that energy. I always say the actors, you know, we're emotional people. We are trained to cry or do whatever we need to do. On action. One, two, three, action. It's kind of like a racehorse, a thoroughbred in the races. You know, the gates open, they gotta go. And so it's crazy that you have, whether it's a director or cinematographer, the actors that set you have all these emotionally creative people coming in that you would think that they shouldn't be able to have those moments occasionally because they. That's part of the genius.

[C]

Now you. You 100%, you want that. You want that from everyone. And it's just a matter of managing it and having it all goes back to communication with again with the director and the actors, the director and the dp, the actors and the dp. Like, everyone just has to communicate. And then you kind of. You get it. You may not like the answer. You know, he may not. You know, Frank maybe didn't like that answer, but at least you're kind of figuring it out together and something good comes from it.

[A]

So many times Rob and I had to be squished in a scene Together, you know, and in one shot, we may rebel, but eventually there are times you just have to do it right. Or a director might want some compromise. There has to be an element of compromise. But that doesn't mean you can't have the passionate discussion beforehand, too, though.

[C]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

Did you have any memories of working with Diane and Andy, the writers and producers?

[C]

They're fantastic. I mean, the writing on the show is amazing, and the writers were joyed, at least from my experience, were amazing to work with because you get these gems of scripts, and of course you'd have questions and you want to make notes, you want to make change, you want to do that. You know, it's just we all process things differently and look at it from a different lens, but they were just super talented and a joy to work with. I loved it and Josh, too, and, you know, so, you know, everyone on that show is just. It felt like a good vibe. But you're right. I remember because the earlier shows, as you mentioned earlier, they were so afraid of air that they were. They were doing adr. They were just having you guys talk over every little space. It was kind of interesting. This episode worked because of the air.

[B]

Yeah. I think it was an adage that in comedy, you know, you can't have any air, which I don't think is true, but it was a.

[C]

You know.

[A]

Well, at least we didn't have a laugh track. Laugh tracks.

[C]

Driving me nuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So at least we didn't have that.

[B]

Well, I think we're gonna wind down here. Michael, it's been so great. If there's anything else you want to talk about in terms of the show or anything, now's your chance.

[C]

No, it's just so good catching up with you guys. It really is great seeing you guys and watching that show brought back such great, great memories. Just what a wonderful slice of time.

[B]

You know, maybe we'll ask you to come back when we get to one of your other episodes and we can talk again.

[C]

I would love that.

[A]

Yeah. Michael, you have such a beautiful energy, you know.

[C]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

I remember it was just a joy working with you, and you just have a beautiful energy, and you're so talented, and this show is one of the highlights of the 110, so great job.

[C]

That's a lot of shows.

[A]

Yeah, I know, but it was really special this week one. So you did a beautiful job, and this makes me want us to go. I want to go to. Back to Roslyn and work with both of you again. It's like let's do it.

[C]

Let's do it. I'm really close, actually.

[B]

That's right. You got an easy to drive there.

[C]

Drive. Exactly.

[A]

Oh, that's nice.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Thank you. Wonderful show. All right, well, we'll see. We can't wait to get together with y' all again next week. And we're gonna sign off now from. Okay, o' Connell and Fleischman.

[B]

Actually, I think it should be Fleischman o'.

[A]

Connell. In your dreams. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson.

[C]

And Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media. I'm Bobby Finger.

[A]

And I'm Lindsey Weber. Our podcast who weekly is everything you need to know about the celebrities you don't think of us as your cheat code to People magazine. Your glossary for Hollywood, a shortcut to understanding pop culture at large. For the past eight years, Hooweekly has.

[B]

Been telling listeners everything they need to know about the celebrities they don't who.

[A]

Weekly airs twice weekly with brand new episodes on Tuesdays and Fridays. Listen and follow Hoo Weekly An Odyssey podcast, available now for free on the Odysee app and wherever you get your podcasts.