S3E9: "Seoul Mates" with Jack Bender

Summary

Northern Disclosure: "Seoul Mates" with Jack Bender

Podcast: Northern Disclosure (Evergreen Podcasts)
Hosts: Rob Morrow (Joel Fleischman), Janine Turner (Maggie O’Connell)
Guest: Jack Bender (Episode Director, TV veteran)
Date: November 4, 2025
Episode: Season 3, Episode 9
Subject: A deep rewatch and behind-the-scenes exploration of Northern Exposure’s classic holiday episode “Seoul Mates”

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on an in-depth rewatch of “Seoul Mates” (Northern Exposure season 3, episode 10), a fan-favorite holiday episode that explores family, culture, and belonging. Hosts Rob Morrow and Janine Turner—stars of the original show—invite acclaimed director Jack Bender (Lost, Game of Thrones) for behind-the-scenes insights, reflecting on the technical challenges, acting process, and the episode’s wider themes of diversity, forgiveness, and unity. The episode is also a celebration of the Emmy-winning work of writers Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Context and Emotional Resonance of “Seoul Mates”

• Award Recognition:
  • [03:03] Rob confirms “Seoul Mates” was written by Diane Frolov and Andy Schneider, who won the Emmy for this script.
  • [03:35] Janine reflects on how, as a single mother, she connects deeply with the family themes in this episode.
• Reflecting Personal Connections:
  • [04:01] Both hosts note stories “run close to home” for the actors, adding to the show’s authenticity.
  • [04:20] Janine praises the episode’s embrace of “all forms of religion” and unity—“our theme song of America… that we all come together.”
• Rewatching Through New Eyes:
  • [04:46] Rob and Janine highlight vivid memories resurfacing from filming, suggesting how time and reflection change their perspectives.

Acting, Directing, and On-Set Dynamics

• Long Hours and Actor Emotion:
  • [06:30] Janine recounts filming while exhausted, and being “a little bit antagonistic,” leading to a memory of Jack Bender’s patience on set.
  • [08:02] Rob contextualizes how the intense scheduling of network TV can cause actors to “not behave”—emphasizing the need for compassion behind the scenes.
  • [09:25] Janine explains the actor’s struggle: “I always tried to bring a lot of emotional duality… and then they want us to put a level of comedy on top of it.”
• Directorial Approach:
  • [13:11] Jack Bender discusses coming in as a new director on a grueling night shoot, highlighting both the technical and emotional demands for cast and crew.
  • [14:35] Jack: “I think episodic TV in the old days of 22 episodes is really hard on the actors, and it’s also hard on the directors.”
  • [13:55] He notes the evolution and improvement in TV schedules, with today’s shorter streaming seasons allowing more creative breathing room.

Behind-the-Scenes Stories & Technical Insights

• The Magic of the Snow (Production Value):
  • [19:35] Jack reveals how a surprise snowstorm transformed the look of “Seoul Mates,” capturing “every angle in this town” for cinematic effect.
  • [20:40] Rob calls Northern Exposure “the beginning of the cinematizing of television” and lauds the episode’s “cinematic and verité” quality.
• Casting Insights:
  • [29:58] Jack explains the realities of episodic TV casting, and tells a vivid story about casting on The Sopranos, noting the power of authentic (even non-actor) performances.
• Collaboration on Set:
  • [36:22] Jack and Janine emphasize the delicate, collaborative dance between directors and actors, especially as outsiders coming into established shows.
  • [44:17] Deliberate, “ragged” choices are celebrated—embracing imperfection, authenticity, and the letting go of rigid TV conventions.

Thematic and Cultural Layering in "Seoul Mates"

• Blending Holidays, Religions, and Rituals:
  • [22:33] Janine and Rob reflect on dialogue around race and religion that might be “courageous” or controversial today, suggesting the show’s ahead-of-its-time directness.
• Humor and Humanity:
  • [41:02] The hosts discuss how TV conventions have shifted, with Rob recalling pet peeves about staging for outdated TV aspect ratios.
• Literary Allusions and Raven Storyline:
  • [44:17] Rob asks about the “raven story,” praising the writers’ blending of Native mythology with Christmas themes.
  • [46:06] Janine celebrates the Edgar Allan Poe references; Jack explains challenges in helping actress Elaine Miles (Marilyn) deliver her big speech—emphasizing adaptability in directing.

Memorable Scenes and Performances

• Bill White (Dave the Cook) and Supporting Cast:
  • [27:11] Rob and Janine shout-out Bill White’s continued growth from extra to integral scene-stealer.
• Maurice’s Emotional Arc:
  • [27:44; 28:28] The hosts and Jack note the subtle power and vulnerability in Barry Corbin’s portrayal of Maurice’s reconnection with his son and lost love.
• John Cullum’s “Ave Maria”:
  • [50:02] Janine marvels at Cullum’s unpretentious, heartfelt performance: “He’s not performing… he’s just singing from his heart.”
• Maggie’s Duality:
  • [54:49] Rob admires Janine’s “moving” navigation of Maggie’s layers—toughness, humor, vulnerability—especially in family-themed episodes.

Industry Reflections & Career Journeys

• Evolution of TV Directing:
  • [42:40; 43:16] Janine and Jack discuss the rise of more improvisational, less rigid directorial styles (Altman, FNL), and the legacy of “messy”/authentic storytelling.
• Game of Thrones/Lost (Jack Bender’s Career):
  • [55:04; 55:52] Rob and Jack geek out over Game of Thrones, with Jack recalling being approached to direct, and ultimately helming the iconic “Hodor” episode.
  • [59:39] Jack marvels at the “French hours” and immense resources on GoT: “10 hour days, feed you all day… in 10 hours you’re done.”
• TV Budgets Then and Now:
  • [62:01; 62:05] The hosts compare Northern Exposure’s budget (starting at ~$849K) to modern prestige TV’s $20M+ per episode, reflecting on economic and creative shifts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the demands of TV acting and directing:

  • “These shows are crucibles… sometimes we don’t behave. We have to take it with a grain of salt.”
    — Rob Morrow [08:02]

• On working with actors:

  • "I can fluctuate between audacity and insecurity, depending on the day. Like all of us, right?”
    — Jack Bender [15:25]

• On embracing imperfection and collaboration:

  • “I love nothing better than when actors have better ideas. I’m very secure… When people have better ideas, whether they’re actors or DP or whatever, I go, fabulous. Let’s do that.”
    — Jack Bender [48:16]

• On the town of Cicely & the show’s magic:

  • “One of the great things about Northern Exposure was…the landscape and the environment informed so much of the story. And then you get the gift of it happening to snow in the Christmas episode.”
    — Rob Morrow [21:35]

• On the show’s themes of acceptance:

  • “There was no one shutting anybody down… there’s just this acceptance, which people could then feel safe… If we could only do that in our culture today.”
    — Janine Turner [52:52]

• On Jack’s approach to directing Game of Thrones:

  • “Every time I said something to any one of those actors, you know what they said? Thank you. And it’s that British actor thing… I learned not to say no too quickly.”
    — Jack Bender [57:34]

• On legacy and meaning as artists:

  • “I feel very blessed to be able to be doing the work at this point that I love… I’m very proud of what I’m doing and feel very blessed to be doing it.”
    — Jack Bender [63:13]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:03] — Confirmation of writers' Emmy win and episode background
• [06:30-09:25] — Acting process, exhaustion, and on-set emotions
• [12:11] — Jack Bender joins, memories as episodic director
• [19:35-21:35] — Snowstorm's cinematic impact, production discussion
• [27:11-28:28] — Supporting characters: Bill White and Maurice’s arc
• [46:06] [46:30-48:16] — Directing Marilyn’s “Raven story,” bench/truck anecdote
• [50:02] — John Cullum’s “Ave Maria”
• [55:04-59:39] — Bender’s Game of Thrones and Lost experience
• [62:01] — Comparing TV budgets (then vs. now)
• [63:13] — Jack reflects on legacy and gratitude

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Natural Banter & Warmth

Throughout the episode, Rob, Janine, and Jack display the same quirky, honest, and affectionate dynamic that has defined both the podcast and the original series. Their conversation is peppered with gentle teasing (“In your dreams, Fleischman”—Janine [64:57]), moments of vulnerability, and mutual admiration. Listeners are treated not just to technical and thematic insight but also to reflections on aging, humility, and creative partnership across the decades.

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Summary

This “Seoul Mates” episode of Northern Disclosure offers an illuminating, heartfelt, and often funny deep dive into one of Northern Exposure’s most beloved holiday episodes. It draws out beautiful lessons about collaboration, adaptation, and the messy, magical process by which great television is made. With candid stories from both sides of the camera and reflections that feel as relevant today as they did on 1990s TV sets, the podcast leaves fans—new and old—both satisfied and hungry for next week’s rewatch.

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Transcript

[Rob Morrow]

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[Janine Turner]

This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh. An ice cold Diet Coke isn't just a break. It's your chance to catch your breath and savor a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing. Still the same great taste. Diet Coke make time for you time.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, hello there again. Welcome back to Northern Disclosure. I'm Rob Morrow and I got the beautiful and fresh looking Jeanine Turner over here coming to you from Texas. And we are back with another episode of the podcast. You know, if you are listening, you know, you can watch it Also on the YouTube channel on the Northern Disclosure YouTube channel. Or you can, as you know, probably listen to it wherever you get your podcast. So thanks for tuning in. I just want to say to everyone who's been watching, we, we do read the, the comments and there's so many lovely, so many people have said so many lovely things and it means so much to us that, that, well, the, the original show affected you, but that this one is, is rekindling that or bringing a new sense of awareness about what, what went into the making of it. And all the comments and feedback is, is, is really meaningful and, and I just want to say I appreciate it. So how you doing there, Janine?

[Janine Turner]

I'm fine. At least I'm not sitting in my car being chased by the trash truck and police cars.

[Rob Morrow]

That's right.

[Janine Turner]

Which was two episodes ago. And then one episode ago I was sitting in my mother's, you know, hospital room. So I'm back in my house. Though I'm still my mother's full caregiver, so I'm a bit harried, but I'm fine. And you know, I will also say that everybody can watch Northern Exposure again on Amazon Prime Video.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, Amazon Prime Video, except I think in Canada they tell me that in Canada it's not available anymore for some reason. That's what I heard.

[Janine Turner]

I don't know if that's universal about that.

[Rob Morrow]

That's right. Get on that.

[Janine Turner]

I will, I will. I'm in my overalls today. See, I'm in my overalls.

[Rob Morrow]

Very cool. That, that seems appropriate for your farm life.

[Janine Turner]

Still missing a couple of longhorns got to go out and chase them down a little bit later. But I'm thrilled to be doing this episode. Rob. I think this episode is that Diane won the Emmy for this episode.

[Rob Morrow]

It is Diane and Andy. The writers of this episode is called Soul Mates. It's season three, episode ten, written by the. The great team of. Of Diane Froloff and Andy Schneider, and they did win the Emmy.

[Janine Turner]

But I kind of remember that. That she went up herself to receive this. Does it say that she wrote this?

[Rob Morrow]

No, they wrote it together. They always wrote together.

[Janine Turner]

Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, for sure.

[Janine Turner]

I mean, I remember that she was up there, and I remember her with her little children.

[Rob Morrow]

I'm sure they were up there together.

[Janine Turner]

So it doesn't say that. Just she wrote it on this.

[Rob Morrow]

No, definitely not.

[Janine Turner]

Okay. Okay. Well, it's very profound. Of course, as a single mother, you know, whose father was never around till she was, you know, basically 21 year, 22 years of age, I can really relate to this episode. And I just had a Comic Con you and I both did with Barry, and I did another one for Dallas with Barry, and he was telling me all the stories. You know, Barry. This storyline of Barry's runs close to home for him, too.

[Rob Morrow]

He's got. Yeah, it's interesting. Once again, we have these corollaries. I'm always amazed. There's always something in everything I do that kind of is somehow connected to my personal life, and it just blows me. Blows my mind. And. And it usually is a. As a. I take it as a harbinger of good that I'm in the right place, you know, somehow.

[Janine Turner]

Well, it's another beautiful episode, don't you think? And I love the way it embraces all forms of religion over the holidays and how, once again, everybody is unified. It's like, you know, our theme song of America. Really? I can't pronounce in Latin. How do you say it? Like a plubrius unum or whatever, you know, that we all come together and that we all came together around freedom of religion and the different religions are exposed in this. I think it's a beautiful story.

[Rob Morrow]

It's true. And it. There's something, you know, it's funny this. This episode. I remembered so many of the moments, you know, watching it. I was like, oh, yeah, I. I remember the experience, which. I don't know. You know, we've talked about. We don't often feel, but I remember, like, you know, you tr. You know, working you. Dealing with your foot, you know, and. And you.

[Jack Bender]

You.

[Rob Morrow]

You used to kind of Sprain your ankle. And I, I just remember the moment, like, so clearly. Maybe it's just that our minds are open now that we're watching and talking about the show so much. But, you know, our guest is the, the great director, Jack Bender. And, you know, his, his career is, is, Is amazing. And, and I, I, when I was watching the show last night, he just has such a. And this was early on. I mean, he'd been around a bit, but this was early in compared to what he's done since then. And yet he had such a nice touch with all the actors, you know, with the way the scenes were staged, with the choice of where the camera was. It just, There was just. It was just a nice, it was a comp. There was a confidence to it and a light touch that I think served the material really well.

[Janine Turner]

I think so too. And I like the blend of, you know, masters close ups. There were some nice blends of that. But I have a memory from this show which we'll talk to Jack about. I have a memory of being in your cabin and we were filming around that Christmas tree. And I don't know what, what time of year we were filming it. I mean, we were always, what, about five weeks ahead? Do you remember?

[Rob Morrow]

Probably. But it was snowing, so it was snowing. It had to have been close to.

[Janine Turner]

Well, your, your cabin would have been on the set. And I just remember. We'll talk to Jack about this. I remember that we were so tired and, And I remember being sort of a little bit antagonistic and Jack. And I remember Jack, like, leaning back against that Christmas tree, kind of like, okay, you know, And I remember afterwards, I felt sort of guil. I must have been sort of demanding in some sort of way. And, and I remember you said to me, it's okay, Jeanine. We're tired. You know, we work long, hard hours. It's just the end of the year, it's like we're tired. And I remember the camaraderie that you and I had. And I remember that Jack was so persevering and understanding of that. And I also look at that, Those scenes that I had, which I think any great director with working with actors, which he was one of them, will understand what the actor is trying to bring to the scene and, and understand that they're not just dealing with the actor, the personality, like Janine Turner, the person they're dealing with, Janine Turner, the actress, trying to portray Maggie o' Connell and what she's feeling. And those, those, those feelings were very Depressive for her, you know, she was. She was very depressed. And. And so you kind of bring that in because you never know when they're going to say action. So you kind of bring it in to the rehearsal and all kind of like stay in that kind of zone. And I realized now I was really trying to bring that depression that she felt into those particular scenes. So I was a little forgiving of myself. Years I remembered that I, for some, somehow I gave Jack trouble. I don't remember.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, you can apologize.

[Janine Turner]

Maybe he remembers or maybe he doesn't remember.

[Rob Morrow]

But I just want to point out, you know, someone was telling me someone kind of big in the industry the other night was telling me about an actor on a show who's, quote, like a nightmare and really, really, you know, bad. And I. I walked away thinking, I'm. I don't doubt that this person probably did some stuff that would. That they wish they hadn't or that wasn't the best of themselves. But I just want to say that these. These shows are crucibles, you know, they are. They are very difficult to do on the week in, week out. Again, I think to your point about the actors have to bring on. Have to tap into these emotions, and they have to do it, you know, and keep it alive all day. Like, when we get upset in life, we try to get over it as fast as possible, but as actors, we have to find that pain and maintain it for 12, 15 hours. And so sometimes we don't behave. I mean, I think at our age now, we. We don't misbehave. But when we're younger and we're trying to understand it, yeah, we act out or we get demanding, as you said, or. And I just think you have to take it all with a grain of salt. I'm not. I'm not suggesting that we need to, you know, that people should be able to be, you know, misbehave. I'm just saying that we have to take it with a grain of salt. When you hear stories about an actor.

[Janine Turner]

I think there's a happy medium of what you're trying to bring to the scene. That emotion you have to hang on to. Because I always. We talked a lot about this, Rob. You know, I always tried to bring a lot of emotional duality or, you know, like a lot of triple, quadruple feelings of what she was feeling, which then. And then they want us to put a level of, like, kind of comedy on top of it. But I didn't feel like get there until I. I peeled The Onion and got to 3, 2, 1, you know, all the way back. So it's a fine line between grace for what the actor is trying to bring and the actor trying to bring it on action. Like a thoroughbred running out of the gate, you know, at the Kentucky Derby and, and directors appreciating that. And then the actress or the actor also has to say, okay, I gotta, you know, it's a real. It's interesting behind the scenes kind of experience that people might be interested to hear. And we need to bring Jack in. But that kind of thing that the actor's up against, it's like I've got to be able to bring all this emotion and have it there on action, but I got to be able to be, you know, kind to the crew and good to the crew and empathetic and conscientious of other people's feelings. And I think you and I did that on the whole, as my mother says, most of the time, really well. But I just remember in this particular scene, in these scenes in your. With the Jack leaning against the tree with his arms crossed, looking at me.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, let me, let me. I'm going to read the little synopsis and then I'm going to list some of his credits. We'll bring them in. So the synopsis of this is called Soulmates. The Sicilians Await the Raven Pageant. The town's annual Christmas.

[Jack Bender]

Right.

[Rob Morrow]

Joel gets his first ever Christmas tree. Maggie finds out she's not going home for Christmas. And Shelly becomes nostalgic for past Christmases. And Maurice gets a new family. So Jack Bender, his credits are amazing. You know, he. He went on to. After he directed. He only directed one episode of Northern Exposure, probably because his schedule filled up quickly thereafter, but he did. I think he's currently on a show called from which he's an executive producer. He's directed 17 episodes. He directed two episodes of Game of Thrones that I can't wait to talk to him about because I consider that one of the top five best shows ever. He directed eight episodes of the Last Ship. He was also EP under the Dome, nine episodes. Also EP, 43 episodes of Lost. Okay, that qualifies him for, you know, something putting him in his own category as well as being EP and four episodes of Sopranos. So as far as I'm concerned, he's directed two of the. The best shows in the history of television.

[Janine Turner]

Or three or four. Four, if you include ours.

[Rob Morrow]

Okay, let's bring out Mr. Jack Bender.

[Janine Turner]

Jack Bender.

[Jack Bender]

Hi. Good to see you both looking so well. Let Me, Let me. Let me just. Based on listening to everything you guys just said, the one. I remember that night. And by the way, I have often told people about the show that because I love the show. And actually it was the first time, aside from an ACE Award I was nominated for, although my younger daughter said daddy was emanated, which I kind of sounded. Emanated. I sounded like the Pope. And not quite.

[Rob Morrow]

I'm going to steal that. I like that.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, they emanated. Hannah said that. But I will say that I think episodic, because I inherited the show. I remember you guys were running long hours. It was late October. Ish. November, very cold. And it wasn't expected to snow, which I'll get into. Which was the good grace of that episode that it did.

[Rob Morrow]

Looks so beautiful.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. Oh, my God. But I inherited the show as the new director. Coming in at 10:30 at night on a Thursday. Okay. You know what it's like to be working all week, getting into those hours. And I come in, you know, with as much positive energy as I can have. And everybody's going, okay, here we go.

[Rob Morrow]

Wait, so what do you mean? I'm just not clear. Wait, so 10:30 at night is when I started.

[Jack Bender]

That was my first day with you guys. Oh.

[Rob Morrow]

Because we were so into shooting nights that you. Your day didn't start till 10:30 on the next. On the first day of the episode. Wow.

[Janine Turner]

Maybe that's why I was tired.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. No wonder. Of course.

[Jack Bender]

But what I wanted to say was, I believe, and I come from the theater like you do, Rob, but where there's time to establish relationships and all that. And I think episodic telev. And I think it's better now with these streaming shows because you do 10 episodes, you do eight. The show I just finished that Mary Louise Parker is starring in with some other wonderful actors. The Institute, based on Stephen King's book. And we're starting the second season of that. But I will say that I think episodic in the old days of 22 episodes is really hard on the actors, and it's also hard on the directors.

[Rob Morrow]

We were doing 25, by the way.

[Jack Bender]

There you go. Right as we were on Lost. It was insane. But I'm saying that here comes a new director. You know, you probably never even had time to look up anything I had ever done if you would have cared and not saying you should have. I think I probably came on as Josh Brand's friend because I was friend and still am friends with Josh. And it's 10:30 at night. And we're doing this scene that's emotional and all that stuff. And I remember having certain discussions with both of you guys in terms of how irritated. Because at the end of the scene, Jeanine, you have to walk out, I believe. Or Rob walks out, one of you is pissed off and leaves the other one, you walked out. And I'm just saying that I think it's not easy. And by the time you get into a rhythm with somebody, and I'm not saying that the director has to always know best. Right. It's like being a parent. I think being a good director is you have your group and you try to create an environment or add to an environment to get the best out of everybody. And over the years, that I've gotten much less insecure than I was then. Although I still say as an artist and I'm a painter and a bunch of things, but. Or director, I can fluctuate between audacity and insecurity, depending on the day. Right. Like all of us. Right. And so I'm just saying I don't walk around thinking, I know best. I know if it comes to that and someone asks, I'll go there. But so I'm just saying I'm empathetic to what you're saying about the beginning of that. And I think it's hard, as much of a blessing as it is, to be carrying a show where you're doing 25 episodes. You guys were in season three, and it's not that easy on the director who's coming in, wanting to do the best they can do and not force you guys into any square hole, being around Peg or vice versa, whatever that is. So I think the process is kind of difficult, and it's gotten better when people aren't having to do 25 episodes anymore.

[Rob Morrow]

I agree.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. They're. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

You've done. You. You'd done a fair amount of episodic by the time you came to Northern. Right. But it didn'. Not to the degree of. Of eping and directing multiple episodes on shows.

[Jack Bender]

Correct. Correct.

[Janine Turner]

We didn't have Google back then either. Right. And. And so we went from Fright, you know, Thursday 1 and 1 episode ending 1, to Friday, starting a new episode. And as you said, it was probably 10:30 at night, which I guess we can give ourselves a little grace. You know, we were tired, but we didn't have Google back then. Right. And nobody came into us and said, this is your next director. This is what he's done. You know, no one prepped us. It was Just like, here's this new person. Not that we didn't respect you and know that you had to be good to be there, obviously, and. But it's. It is true that it was before Google.

[Jack Bender]

Well, it's before all that stuff.

[Rob Morrow]

So Josh. You knew Josh, and that's how you ended up on the show?

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, I was doing a show called I'll Fly Away, which was John and Josh's other show. We all met in baby group. Once again, you were talking about life and work, doing that.

[Rob Morrow]

It's amazing how many people get work from their. From. From going to do things with their kids. Baby group.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, we. We started. We were in. Our wives got to know each other, and a bunch of us were in the Lamaze class together and then had babies around the same time. And there were some actors, there was Josh, there was me. And so. And we were as incestuous as possible in terms of trying to work together. And so I had done a bunch of the episodes of that other show, and I never was around. And then he asked me a few times, and then I was available. And you know what I will say. And I said earlier when we were talking, Rob, I've been very fortunate to catch good waves. And thankfully, when I caught the waves, I was able to ride the wave and deliver because it's a combination of the right place at the right time. But I will say that I lucked out with that phenomenal script.

[Rob Morrow]

It was a great script, a very special script.

[Jack Bender]

Oh, my God. And Andy. And Andy and Diane did write it and won the Emmy. They were emanated, but they actually were really emanated where I was just kind of emanated, but nevertheless. So that's how I knew Josh and I came to do the show. And then scheduling never worked out, and all that jazz. That happens. But I was very proud of that show. It was wonderful. And one anecdote, if I may, about the snow and talking about when you have good fortune, and that was they had written a whole bunch of stuff for John Corbett to say, which was, it's an unseasonably hot Christmas in Sicily. The town was Sicily, wasn't it? Did I make that up?

[Rob Morrow]

That was the. Yes, it was. We shot in Roslyn, and the fictitious town was Sicily.

[Jack Bender]

Sicily, yeah. So it's an unusually hot Christmas. So we don't think we're gonna get snow because there was no prediction that we were gonna get snow one morning while we're shooting. And we hadn't shot those scenes with John yet on the Radio. I wake up and it's snowing. So I called the line producer. I forget who. And I said, Matt Nodella. Yeah, can we get another camera? I'm shooting. Can we get another camera and shoot the. Out of every angle in this town.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, so smart. Those shots are so great, too.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. And we did. One of Josh's favorite shots he always talked about was when I think it's Barry and his. His son and somebody. They're walking across. I think it's snowing. They're walking across. It's a high shot, the street. And he said they were just like ducks in the snow. He said it was. And I was. I said, doesn't it plague when we were talking about editing? And I said, well, we sit on it a long time. He said, I'd sit on it twice as long. It's so great. But we got very. We got very lucky with the snow, right?

[Rob Morrow]

And it's like, you know, one of the great things about, you know, I talk about Northern Exposures being this. The. Somewhat. The beginning of the cinematizing of television, which you went on and capitalized on shows like Lost and. And. And. And. I mean, Game of Thrones is the apotheosis of the cinematizing of television. But when you get the production value like that, it. It had a very. You know, the way. I don't know if you. Or a second unit person went out and shot that. Those shots of the town and stuff, but it had a very cinematic and. And. And verite. It felt authentic. You know, it just. It didn't feel contrived. And it's. One of the great things about Northern Exposure was that all of that, the landscape and the environment informed so much of the story. And, you know, and. And then you get the gift of it happening to snow in the Christmas episode.

[Janine Turner]

I mean, that's just the duality within each character. You know, in. In the last episode, I. The. Where we had the carnival coming to town, you know, Maggie had all these dialogues about, you know, you don't need men and all that, but you could tell that she really wanted a man, you know, and in this duality, it's like, I don't want to go home to my parents. I don't want to go home to my parents. And yet she actually did. And then Fleischman was like, I don't want a Christmas. You know, I don't know, but he gets a Christmas tree. But then again, you know, he brings it to Maggie, which is really beautiful. Little touching scene.

[Rob Morrow]

He cared so much about Maggie in this episod, you know, of how she was dealing. It's a very. The evolution of the characters in this season is very profound. You know, that he goes out of his way. I mean, first of all, that Joel even contemplates having a Christmas tree is a growth or an opening. And then that he brings it to you because he cares about you is.

[Janine Turner]

It'S sweet, beautiful thing. And the way Maurice, you know, John Corbett says, well, because he's not white. You know what I mean? And that's why I think the show today would maybe it would have to be really courageous people to do the show today because they were willing to say things then that today people be like, their hair would be on fire, you know. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price. When you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Rob Morrow]

When cool creamy ranch meets tangy bold buffalo, the whole is greater than the.

[Jack Bender]

Sum of its sauce.

[Rob Morrow]

Say howdy partners to New Buffalo Ranch sauce only at McDonald's for a limited time.

[Jack Bender]

A participating McDonald's. One of the things I always loved about the show was that it was ragged and the people were ragged and imperfect, like all good drama is. But. And the town itself, as you said, Rob, lent itself visually to that raggedness and imperfection and the fact that we all struggle and. And how innocent the world was then. I mean, when we look around us now and we see the shitstorm, excuse me, that our world is in and how unforgiving we all are. I've written a couple of art storybooks because, Rob, you were talking about writing a novel. I know that language and words is not my oeuvre. I know that I can write dialogue. If I write a screenplay, I can know how to direct it and all that stuff. But in terms of the use and the beauty of construction and language and all that stuff, it's not what I do. I'm a painter. I've been a painter since I was 14. And I've done a couple of books and I'm going to get you guys a copy. I have a new one coming out called Born Worried, which is. Which is kind of autobiographical, neurotic, but also exaggerated.

[Rob Morrow]

But these are Paintings?

[Janine Turner]

No, he has a book. He has a book.

[Jack Bender]

It's a combination. In fact, Stephen King wrote about my first book. If ever there was a storybook for adults, this is it. Because I combine paintings or paintings that express certain things I'm talking about or certain characters. The point I'm making is that during COVID I was sitting around with one of our dogs and I looked up at a diptych I had painted and it was two small paintings with a hand coming across in flowers. And it said, I am sorry. And I thought, who do I have to apologize to that I haven't apologized to Now? I've. At that point I had gotten much better because I could have been a. I don't think I was on your show, but I. There were times that I could have been a much better person that I was in terms of expressing displeasure or whatever the hell it was.

[Rob Morrow]

But that's what we're talking about. It's like it's. It takes. You have to learn how to deal in these pressure cooker situations with your emotions. It's like that's the maturity that we, we have to go through.

[Jack Bender]

Right. And this book is basically filled with characters and dogs and people all who have something to apologize for.

[Janine Turner]

A dog has something to apologize for. That's interesting.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, the. My dog for peeing all over my expensive rugs. For sure. I want a lot of apologies.

[Janine Turner]

Listen, I'm in my bedroom with three dogs and a cat, so.

[Jack Bender]

Hey, hey, Janine, we have.

[Rob Morrow]

You beat.

[Jack Bender]

My wife and I have five dogs.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, at one point I had eight.

[Jack Bender]

Right, There you go. There you go. So the point is, is that we all, as Woody Allen wrote Crimes and Misdemeanors, we. We all screw up. We're all imperfect. Some of us, God forbid, our misdemeanors, we commit some crimes. Hopefully not either. But in terms of apologies, it's a book about, you know, maybe sometimes saying I'm sorry for something you did is not a bad thing. So you guys will laugh. I'm going to get it to you. I'll make sure I figure out a way.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, that sounds great. I'd love to read it. Yes, yes, yes.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, one thing I wanted to do, Janine, is do a shout out to Bill White, Dave the cook.

[Janine Turner]

Well, he's no longer living.

[Rob Morrow]

I know he's. Well, he's rest and rest in peace to Bill. But I just wanted to say, you know, he was such a. He started as basically an extra and then they, they made him more and more of a Character. And he's such. He's so integral. Integral to. To the show, ultimately. And. And he had a couple nice moments in this episode.

[Janine Turner]

He did. I agree with that. He did. And that was not introducing his parents. And then.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

Was so sad.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, it's also sweet. You know what fascinated me when I was thinking, I don't know, Jack, when you were watching it again, is that Maurice seemed to forget the woman, you know, that he. That he had this. This son with. And. And this. In the course of the story, he remembers her. And it's such an interesting thing because it's so interesting the way memory works, you know, that it. When it opens up, I guess we were talking about before, like, now that we're immersed in the history of this show. I'm remembering things that I didn't remember before, but I found it fascinating when Maurice finally remembers her and his heart opens. You can see him just kind of open to her.

[Jack Bender]

I remember shooting that scene.

[Janine Turner]

Tell us about it.

[Jack Bender]

Well, it was around the kitchen table, or am I dreaming that it was. I remember shooting it. I remember just technically wanting to do a little slow push in on him and a few things like that. Not getting too fancy because I'm still a big believer in style and content coming together versus style over content. Unless that's what you're doing. If you're doing a Marvel movie, God bless, You know, make the. Make the ride. But. And I just remember how wonderful he was in that scene. And. And I remember the pleasure it was to help guide him to do that. I don't know that he needed a heavy hand as a conductor, but I remember working with him and how wonderful he was in that scene.

[Rob Morrow]

No, you can tell because you.

[Janine Turner]

You.

[Rob Morrow]

There's. I mean, you know, Barry's always great. He's just a great actor, but there was something about the vulnerability that he brought that he opened in that. In those moments that I. That jumped out at me as feeling like it was something different. And I'm sure you helped him because, you know, he was. He was a receptive actor, or he is a receptive actor. And.

[Janine Turner]

And she was wonderful, too, I thought.

[Jack Bender]

The wife. Yeah.

[Janine Turner]

Yes.

[Rob Morrow]

The.

[Janine Turner]

The Mother of the sun was cast really well. As well as the sun was cast really well. And I loved how the grandson had on a leather jacket like Ed, you know, always wears. Were you a part of that casting process, Jack? Did they include you in that?

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. Yes, I remember being involved in some of it. But I also know that, as we said in episodic and the train and the way it moves that if a director comes in to do one of the shows I'm doing, you know, they may or may not, depending on the timing, be involved. And I've. Well, there's a story about Northern Exposure that's amazing and not, Forgive Me, the Sopranos, which I won't get into about casting.

[Rob Morrow]

No, let's hear it.

[Jack Bender]

You want to hear it?

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah.

[Jack Bender]

I did an episode. Oh, by the way, I met David Chase when I was doing I'll Fly Away for Josh and John. And we remain friends because he was a. He was a. One of the head writers on that show and an exec producer and then eventually he came over to produce your show for a while.

[Rob Morrow]

He hated our show.

[Jack Bender]

Well, David, David, I'm sure doesn't hide what he dislikes or doesn't like.

[Rob Morrow]

He did a. He did not. It didn't inform his behavior at all except on, you know, occasional aside. But he. And he did a great job as far as I'm concerned with the show.

[Jack Bender]

But.

[Rob Morrow]

But in, in retrospect, it was revealed how much he hated it.

[Jack Bender]

Well, he said to me, well, I'm finally writing a show about my mother, which was the Sopranos, right? And. But I was doing an episode there were. About Johnny Sax, about a bad joke that Joe Joey Pants or somebody says about a big mole on the ass of this woman who was overweight. And the joke was Johnny Sack was married to an overweight woman and she had a big ass was written in the script. And he tells the joke and it kind of becomes the joke heard around the world where now the two families are going to go to war over this joke unless there's an apology and this woman is overweight. So I said to David before I got there, who are we going to cast? Are we going to cast some wonderful New York actress and put her in a semi fat suit? Are we going to. Or do you know someone who's terrific? He said, oh, we already cast her. And I said, really? Who? And he said, she was in the show last season and of course I had watched them all and I said, who did she play? He said, she played Johnny Sack's wife. I said, what scene? He said, at the wedding. So I go back and I look at the episode and they're at a wedding and she is standing next to Johnny Sack, who is a wonderful actor whose name escapes me. And the bride, they walk down the line and they say, and. And she goes, congratulations in a New Jersey accent and then moves on. That was her right she, God bless her, she was a paralegal.

[Rob Morrow]

She wasn't even an actor.

[Jack Bender]

No. Who came to an open casting call for extras on the Sopranos. She lived in New Jersey. And I said to David, david, this part is huge. She has to break down eating candy bars. I mean, oh, my God. He said, you're great with actors. She'll be great.

[Rob Morrow]

Don't you find that sometimes non actors, if they're willing and open, they almost are easier to work with than actors because there's no baggage of technique and stuff. Like, if they have an innate talent and you, as being a good director, understand the process. Sometimes when I've worked with non actors, they end up delivering such poignant performances, which I find fascinating.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, no, I think you're right about that. And I just remember that she didn't understand what a line off camera was versus coming into it. I mean, there were just so many basic things. And I'll say it again, God bless her. She was wonderful. And I don't know that she's here with us anymore, but she. There was a lot that she didn't understand, and I don't think she ever thought about acting a day in her life. And yet, as you said, had a reality that sometimes is just the alchemy of what you get.

[Janine Turner]

That's a tribute to your directing, you know, that you were able to get her to those places.

[Jack Bender]

My favorite thing is to work with actors at this point who, you know, you just go, thank you. You know, and you don't have to push and pull or do anything that. And yet, at the same time, part of our job as a director, to let the actor. Let the actor, and sometimes help the actor give the best performance they can, which hopefully you agree with, which is the case of most. Most of the times I work.

[Rob Morrow]

And you were an actor, right?

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, that's right.

[Rob Morrow]

So that helps, too. Yeah.

[Jack Bender]

I wasn't a very good one, but I was.

[Janine Turner]

I think that that helps that you were an actor. Right. But. But there's an artist in so many different venues. But there's a. There's a collaboration that I think can happen. Right. With trained actors to come in and. And just chisel. Because Rob and I both directed, you know, but to chisel that performance and. And to bring little nuances and. And the difference that it can make when. When you have an open actor, even a trained actor. Right. But that's open to listening. And actors be very careful and episodic, too. Right. Because, like, I can be taken down the completely wrong path here. So you kind of have your. You're kind of a little bit on guard. But to be able to get past that and to kind of find that sense of collaboration is really a beautiful thing because you can bring that talent that the actors trained to bring, and you can bring a little bit of what you're trying to say and the nuances, it can make all the difference in the world. And I may have talked about this before, but this was a looping line in the movie I did with Brian Brown, Dino De Laurenti's Taipan and Communist China in like 1980. 83. 83. You know, but in. In looping, he took my hand and I was looking this way. And then when they're looping, they wanted me to turn around and go, you know, just that little.

[Rob Morrow]

And.

[Janine Turner]

And it made the biggest difference. And. And so I just think there are so many nuances that. That can help develop a. A performance. And so a lot of times when actors win best actor, whatever they may be winning, or the nominations, there's a lot of time the directors who've come in that have helped them get to that point.

[Rob Morrow]

Point.

[Jack Bender]

I think you're absolutely right. It's a combination and it's different, which is one of the reasons episodic tv, when you guys did Northern Exposure and I joined you for the one, it was like an eight day, seven day shoot. Eight, Eight, okay. Eight day shoot. And by the time you get comfortable with my style of communicating or not communicating, whatever the case may be, and I get comfortable with, and. And you guys get comfortable with me and I get comfortable with you to make you realize I'm never going to force you to do anything that you really think is insane. You know, that's not why I'm here. And so I think that there's. I think that the nature of that is difficult. Why. Which is why I think it's better now in the process, most of the time, there are a couple of directors, depending on the amount of episodes that are being done, who alternate or whatever so that everybody. World of imperfection that we all live in. Everybody. You get who I am, what I bring to the party. I get who you guys are, what you bring to the party. Knowing that you want to stand alone. My. You know, I let actors float around a set to rehearse a scene, you know, and then figure out what I want and need or what I need to change. And lots of times the actors know best.

[Janine Turner]

We've actually talked about that, that there can be sketches that directors do, storyboards that Directors do the thoughts in their mind and pre. About how they want the camera to be. And then the actor walks in and says, you know, I don't think I can sit there. And to get what you just said is a beautiful thing, because we don't always get that with directors. And you don't always get directors. They may be trained technically, but they don't understand emotions. So you obviously understood both. But to let us to. It's hard as a director to say, okay, I visualize it this way, but I got to give the actors the ability, as you say, to quote, unquote, float around the room and then reassess how you want to direct it. That's hard to do on the fly.

[Jack Bender]

Well, it's also. When I was starting out from the theater, I was very insecure and everything was the proscenium to me. Right. So a lot of my shots would float around the room and move. And back then, the moving camera was kind of cool. Everybody liked it. It wasn't just over shoulder, single, over shoulder single. You know, like so many shows that are formulaic like that. And yet it was my way because I didn't really understand lenses. I didn't really understand telling stories through, you know, in the theater. It's movement and lighting and the actors movement that controls, like the picture you're painting and the focus on stage as opposed to in film, where the camera is the focus and what you're looking at story wise and why and how to frame it so the actors are the center of it and they're telling the story. So it's. It's. It's something I had to learn.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, it's funny. I think the biggest lesson I ever had as a director was I had done what Janine said, I had storyboarded, I had worked everything out. And I came on the set to shoot and I was really tight schedule, and my actor came in and said. I said, okay, you're gonna sit there. And he was like, you're gonna come in here. And he's like, no, that doesn't make any sense. And like, everything went out the window that I had planned. And all I just remember was seeing a flash of every director I had ever said no to from that day became the easiest. I'm one of the easiest actors for directors now because I just was like, what do you want me to do?

[Janine Turner]

You know, Rob, I remember so many things between the both of us. I'm sure you remember things about me, too. Rob was like, I'm not sitting there. I Don't agree with sitting there. Why are we so close together? And I'm not about to do it. And then I'm sure I did the same thing. But. So, yeah, it does change your perspective, doesn't it?

[Rob Morrow]

But it's funny, one of my pet. Because you've brought that up before. One of my pet peeves back then was because of the. The aspect ratio of the television, of the screen then. It was square. You know, it wasn't rectangular, like. Like we have now. And so the convention was to stick actors as close to each other. So you'd come in a room, a giant room, and you'd be like, shoulder to shoulder, and I'd be. And I think I was, you know, almost anticipating the evolution of it because it was like, why would anyone ever stand like this? And when I'm watching those shows, not just me, but even back in other shows of that time, I can see those moments, and it just. It takes me out of the scene because I just think nobody would stand that close to each other.

[Janine Turner]

Yeah, but sometimes the camera has an illusion, right? It feels tight to us, but in the camera it doesn't. So there's a little bit of give and take there.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah, but I think, yeah, there's.

[Rob Morrow]

It's.

[Jack Bender]

And there's no step rule about any of it. But I do think that in back then, television was very boom. And if an actor got up in a chair, you would zoom across the room to follow the actor. I mean, because God forbid anybody walks across a room that you don't see for an instant or whatever. And it's. It's. I think one of the things that MTV did was it took all those rules, all those bag of tricks, threw them out the window, or I should say put them in a big bag, like, pick up sticks, mixed it up and threw it out there, you know, because television. When I started directing television, if you had a scene where somebody was on the phone, like Rob, let's say, this wouldn't have been Northern Exposure. But before that, when I started, you're on the phone, you called Janine, and you're kind of looking left, Janine, you had to be looking right for some very strange reason, because you could have been on a beach and you could have been, you know, at your office, and there's no confusion where anybody is. But the convention was. You had to be looking at each other to cut from one to the other. And I remember going, why on a show? And. And the why was valid, although the first time I did it that way, and never did again. But there were those kind of rules. And MTV just said, tell the story. Figure it out. You can break the rules. And I think that's one of the things that did, really, that helped.

[Janine Turner]

You know, Rob and I have talked a little bit about this, too. I. I did Dr. T and the Women with Richard Gere and everybody else in the world. Farrah Fawcett for Dr. T and the women. And Robert Altman was famous for that. It's just like, do whatever you want, Walk wherever you want, say whatever you want. And. And I thought, how in the world do they edit this? And then I did Friday Night Lights. I did our dark A season on Friday Night Lights and no direction. It was like improv. And I thought, how in the world. I felt sorry for the editors, but they didn't worry about any of that, you know, matching or those type of things. I mean, I think. I think there are times where it still matters, but I think, once again, it's finding that happy medium.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, you and Jack Nicholson said, yeah, what? Matchings for sissies?

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. I just think you. You want it to be as alive and fresh as possible. And I actually prefer angles. I like it a little messier, I like it a little ragged. And I. You know, you try if you're ending up doing a scene with the two of you and you do some wide shot and you're in the room, and then there comes a point where you're going to get the coverage if need be, and you go in and you do that. But the idea of matching over shoulders. We used to measure the distance when I started doing episodic, because God forbid, the distance of the camera and the lens, the 50 millimeter lens or whatever, wasn't exactly the same one we were using on Janine. If you were in that show years and you long before Northern Exposure, I think the imperfection keeps something alive and ragged in the spontaneity. I love when that happens.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, I agree. I think we should talk a little bit about this raven story, which fascinated me. It's such an interesting tale and the way they wove it into the Christmas story. It's not really inherently a Christmas story, I think, but the corollaries between the Christmas story and the raven story are fascinating. And again, it speaks to the literariness of our writing team because that they were able to take this and build a whole episode basically about it.

[Janine Turner]

Hi, I'm here to pick up my son, Milo. There's no Milo here who picked up.

[Rob Morrow]

My son from school. Streaming only on pcup.

[Jack Bender]

I'm gonna need the name of everyone.

[Rob Morrow]

That could have a connection.

[Jack Bender]

You don't understand.

[Janine Turner]

It was just the five of us.

[Jack Bender]

So this was all planned?

[Janine Turner]

What are you gonna do?

[Rob Morrow]

I will do whatever it takes to.

[Janine Turner]

To get my son back.

[Rob Morrow]

I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other.

[Jack Bender]

All her fault.

[Rob Morrow]

A new series streaming November 6th, only on Peacock. Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours all began as nothing, Just a blank page. Was a blank page cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas. Start on Mac.

[Janine Turner]

Find out more on apple.com Mac.

[Jack Bender]

Well.

[Janine Turner]

They even quoted Edgar Allan Poe. Edgar Allan Poe, My favorite poet.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. And it was also the way it was delivered. Marilyn, right? Didn't. Isn't it? Wasn't it Marilyn that she. She delivered? That's that long story. And how nervous. Do you remember how nervous she was that day?

[Rob Morrow]

So. Well, you could see it in her. I mean, she did it twice, by the way, in the episode. She did it first to me on the street, and then she performs it later with the troupe.

[Jack Bender]

Yes, but on that street scene, I wanted it to be. And we rehearsed it with her walking across the street, and you guys joined. And somewhere in that walk across the street, she starts this story. And she was. And I could see how nervous she was. And she had a big story to.

[Rob Morrow]

Tell that was the biggest she had up to date, for sure.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. And I thought to myself, okay, I gotta find a way to sit her down so that, you know, that's organic to the environment.

[Rob Morrow]

It's all coming back to me as you're telling it. I remember.

[Jack Bender]

I remember it walking across the street. Street sitting down. And I said, I don't know. It was right near this little area that was kind of a park, but not. Not that big. And I said, let's just get an old bench here and let her sit down. Because there was something so genuine and unpretentious about her telling you this story. She was telling a story. And I said. And I knew that it would help her. And I remember you saying, I don't. I don't want to sit on a bench. And I said, okay, let's find something else. And then you said, let's get a truck here, a pickup truck. I'll lean against that. And I said, great. Which is what we did. But that was one way to. I found, to help her not be panicked having to tell that whole story, you know, across the street and on the move and it. And then of course, the last one where we saw it, and it was beautiful.

[Janine Turner]

I mean, to me, that what you, the story you just told is the epitome of the art of great directing. You know, saying, well, Rob, saying, I don't know if I want to sit on that bench, like, okay, I'll bring in a truck. And just throwing it all together when you're under the clock and the snow's coming and it's dark and everybody wants to go home and like 2am you.

[Rob Morrow]

Know what I mean?

[Jack Bender]

Not to mention 100ft of dolly track, which we laid down. But the truck was great. And I will say the truck was a better idea. I love nothing better than when actors have better ideas. I'm very secure. I'm not. I'm much more secure in the world of work than I am in life, let me put it that way. But I, I, I know when I have good ideas. I know what I bring to the party. At the same time, when people have better ideas, whether they're actors or DP or whatever, I go, fabulous. Let's do that. It's such a relief. And not feel like you have to be the one. But I also learned that being married to the same woman since we were 30, you know, that you give up needing to be either the man, the this, the that, the smartest one, that, this one, the that one. And as a parent, too, you know, you just learn that, you know, you gotta shake it up a little bit. You know what I mean?

[Rob Morrow]

I'm off track. No, no, I'm with you. Absolutely. I think, you know, parenting is a great example because you, you, you really have to let go. You have to be there for them, but you have to let go. I mean, we're all parents, and I.

[Janine Turner]

Think life is not black and white.

[Jack Bender]

No, not at all.

[Rob Morrow]

And the best idea winning is to me, I'm so, It's so joyful to be in an environment where the best idea wins, you know, where if I have it or you have it or a grip has it, you know, whatever the best idea is that it just, it creates a synergy that, that, that, that's, you know, you can't, you can't bottle. It's hard to bottle it.

[Jack Bender]

No. And it makes everybody feel like they're a part of the greater good, you know, which is important.

[Janine Turner]

Talk about John Column singing Ava Maria. I mean, the briv.

[Jack Bender]

Oh, my God.

[Janine Turner]

Broadway star.

[Jack Bender]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, once again, there were many gifts in this episode that I was lucky enough when I said yes I'll direct north Northern Exposure to get that one. That was one of them, you know, him singing that. And it was at the bar, wasn't it?

[Janine Turner]

I think it's in the church.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh, that's right. You're right. It was in the church.

[Janine Turner]

He created a manger scene for her, I think.

[Jack Bender]

Oh, that's right. That's right. It was just. I mean, the whole thing was so special. And. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was on the page.

[Rob Morrow]

But, you know what's so beautiful about it is. And again, I think I noticed this with a lot of the performances.

[Jack Bender]

That.

[Rob Morrow]

John does that sings that song so gently and so un. Un. He's not performing, you know, he's not. He's not showing us. He's the great Broadway John Column. He's just singing from his heart and it's so gentle and. And it makes it much more powerful than if he really went off. And I just. I really appreciated that. Aside from. He has a beautiful voice and you could listen to him sing the phone.

[Jack Bender]

Book, you know, I. I was very lucky. I did a show called Mr. Mercedes with Stephen King and. And with the great Brendan Gleason. And Brendan has quite a wonderful voice. And Brendan also sang in a scene we did in a bar. That's why I was crossing that over. And. And once again, it was thoroughly real and unpretentious. And I just think the more. The more humanity and flawed humanity we can bring in to the stories we tell, you know, so that the audience can say, oh, God, what. What if that was me? You know, what if I was on a plane and I crashed on an island with all those people? Then you learn from being there how to be a better person, how to be a better doctor. And it's true of your character. And I think that that's. Without being preachy. That's what was so wonderful about Northern Exposure. It never preached. It never preached from on high, you know, it preached from just. We're in the huddle, all of us together, trying to figure it out and get through our lives.

[Janine Turner]

They didn't have to, though, because there wasn't anyone in the town shutting another person down down.

[Jack Bender]

Well, that's true.

[Janine Turner]

And so it's. When it's. This is the great life lesson of Northern Exposure. If we could only incorporate it, like, into today's culture. There was no one shutting anybody down, because when you shut somebody down, the response is to go, you know, and. And to, like, argue. So it was the ability that everybody just, like, you're this way, and I accept you, and you're that way.

[Rob Morrow]

That's a great point.

[Janine Turner]

Everybody has a different point of view, and you're. We're. Love you. It's very. It's very spiritual if you think about it. It's very. The essence of Christmas. But. But it's Northern Exposure. We know what. Everyone was just willing to kind of go along and go along, and we're all here in Alaska, and we're trying to survive. I equate it to when I modeled in Dallas, and all the models with each other were very, you know, bitchy, for lack of a better word. But when we got to New York City when I was 15, all the models were really nice to each other because we knew we had to survive the city. You know what I mean? And so there's just something about this outback of Alaska and everyone's come there that there was just this acceptance, which people could then feel safe to say what you just said, Jack. Right. They felt safe to be fallible, to say, I'm gonna make mistakes. And I don't know if we could only do that in our culture today. Just like, okay, we're all not perfect.

[Rob Morrow]

Janine, you know that just about some of your performance in this was so. There was so. It was so moving, you know, the dilemma you were wrestling with. And. And also the humor. Like, when you come in the bar, I think it might be your opening of the episode. You come walking in, you do this, like Lucille Ball, Pratt fall, and. And you get up and you. You give the sweetest look to me, like, sorry. You know, like, it's like, you can't deny that you did it, you know, but your. Your character doesn't generally apologize for being, you know, a doofus or whatever. But it was sweet. And I. And. And. And, you know, it's so. It's. Whenever we see Maggie dealing with her family, you know, and the.

[Jack Bender]

The.

[Rob Morrow]

The.

[Jack Bender]

The.

[Rob Morrow]

The. The juxtaposition of what her life is now to what it was, you know, she was such. She was raised in such a different way. You know, she was this. What. She was a debutante, basically, right in. In Grosse Pointe, Michigan. And. And, you know, here she is a bush pilot. And when we see that contrast, which I think you do really well, it's really charming. And I just wanted to point that out.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, thank you. I was allowed to have a little tear. We talked, Jack, that They never let me have any emotion on the show. You know, it's like. It's a comedy. It's a comedy. But I was, I saw a little tear. I'm like, oh, yay. Occasionally I could break through. Well, thank you, Rob. Everything you do is beautiful and genuine.

[Rob Morrow]

Thank you. Before we wind down, Jack, I got it. You got to talk a little bit about Game of Thrones. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jack Bender]

Well, I was asked by David and Dan from the beginning to do the show, and there were reasons I couldn't go to Ireland and do it.

[Rob Morrow]

So this is before it's on, before it's aired.

[Jack Bender]

Oh, yeah. Before season one.

[Rob Morrow]

Because the thing about it was, it was not a show I would be drawn to. And I came to it probably late because I was like, dragons. No, thank you. But it is, to me, arguably, if I had to say, it would be the number one greatest show in television history. All things being equal, Right. When you think about production and cinema and acting and story and scale and budget.

[Jack Bender]

And. And also acting and the directing and all that stuff was really superb. I, I will end the shooting. So in any case, there were a few times I said, no, I couldn't do it. And then it ended up that I had this period of time. And they called again because once again they had an episode not unlike Soulmates, which was Hodor, right, Which was an iconic episode, and they wanted me to do it because of this episode. I did one of the many on north on Lost, but it was about going in and out of time and this and that, whatever. And so I was reluctant because I thought, what the hell can I bring to this show that's the most popular show in the world? Probably one of the best shows ever made with. They know how to do it, they're great, all the actors. I'm going to be this guy who walks in and goes, hey, everybody, I'm here to direct. And I'm going, what can I do? And I ended up my wife, actually, and my agent. And I will say agents frequently push us to do things sometimes that aren't the best choice. We've all experienced that, and sometimes they do. When is the right choice? In this case, it was the right choice. I had time and I said, okay, I'll do it. And I thought I was going to be going to Dublin for eight weeks or whatever it was I thought originally. And it ended up being Belfast. So being a little bit of a neurotic eater, I'm going, oh, my God, I'm going to be eating boiled meat for how long? Not knowing that Belfast is amazing and a real foodie place, aside from being a great place, in any case, I, I, I go There. And I find that everybody is so open. And I had a lot of ideas about the theater troupe that was traveling and things for my theater days that we could do. The production designer was a genius, is a genius. And we. So I found that they were exceptionally open. And of course, not being a jerk, I was completely open to what they knew we needed to do. And the actors. Here's the interesting thing. There are. Janine, you talked about being, you know, having a bug one day or being upset one day or being cranky one day, which happens to all of us, which I don't remember, actually, that I just remember the first night and that it wasn't Easy starting at 10:30. But I found that most of those actors. And also I will say that I don't over direct because I know better. I direct when I really have something to say to add to it or that I think we need to go down this street a little more or whatever. And every time I said something to any one of those actors, you know what they said? What if I was on the wrong show in the United States that was that big a hit episode, season five. And I went up to one of those actors, if it was the wrong actor on that show and had a suggestion, they'd probably say, go screw yourself. What do you think? You know what, what can you possibly tell me? You know what they said? They said, thank you. And it's that British actor thing. And also. And, and it was great. I had a wonderful experience and I learned not to. Or not to say no too quickly.

[Rob Morrow]

But wait, we're talking about 58 days to do two episodes or one episode?

[Jack Bender]

Two. No, no, no, two. No, no, two.

[Rob Morrow]

I mean, that's amazing. I mean, the. So how many pages are you shooting a day?

[Jack Bender]

Like, you know, I can't even remember.

[Rob Morrow]

I know that sometimes probably nothing with all those big scenes, like probably two pages.

[Jack Bender]

Well, yeah, but I had to. I. I remember one day I had the two wonderful actors, Lena and somebody else, and. And then one other little scene on the stage and it was 2 o'. Clock. And the DP, who had won multiple Emmys for shooting that show and other shows, I was lucky enough to have be my dp. And I looked at him and I said, I. I got every shot I want. Do you want to do anything else? He said, no, we got everything. It's great. So I said to the actors, is there anything you guys want to do that we haven't done or try something or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they said, no, we're great, but we're not done, are we? And I went, yeah. And they said, what? This was one of my first days shooting with them. And I said, I. And they said, oh, my God, everybody flogs it to death. We're shooting. But it was French hours. Have you guys ever had the luxury of French hours? 10 hour days, which is what I still try to adhere to, even here in Canada. I don't want to do the 12, 13 hour days and French hours. They feed you all day this wonderful food and you keep working, and in 10 hours you're done.

[Janine Turner]

Oh, my gosh. We work like 14, 16 hours on Northern Exposure. They would send us home at like 2am, 3am, right?

[Jack Bender]

So that's one of the reasons the 50. But I also had four days plus for CGI and this and that and oh my God, you know, it was endless. And I kept saying to everybody, I don't think I mentioned this, but I said, you know what? If these episodes aren't good, I should burn my DGA card.

[Rob Morrow]

You know, because you had so much time and money and the scripts were.

[Jack Bender]

Great and the actors were great. All I could do is screw it up.

[Janine Turner]

How many episodes did they shoot a year? A season?

[Rob Morrow]

12, I think.

[Jack Bender]

Well, also, yeah, but it's funny, Rob. I did hear a few times, oh, we can't afford that. That. And I, I, I got very friendly with the exact producer. And I said, come on. I said, really, HBO is just throwing money at you guys. He said, no, actually, we, we don't have any more. We can't do that.

[Rob Morrow]

And I said, janine, we're talking $20 million an episode.

[Janine Turner]

Wow. What were ours? Ours are like a million dollar an episode, I guess. No.

[Rob Morrow]

Well, we started at Believe it or not, the pilot was shot for 800. And like, like, it's, it's, it's the, it's the number on the population of the town, like $849,000, I think, I think we got up to 12 pretty soon. And, you know, we were patterning around 18 probably, you know, as we got into the, this, like this, this episode, which, you know, again, relative to it was, it was average for what a show costs then, but now the whole, the whole world has gone upside down in terms of budgets. I mean, Succession. They're spending 25 million an episode, you know, and they're shooting forever, but they're great shows. So as an audience member, I'm, you know, bring it on.

[Janine Turner]

Well, when you do less, you can do more like that. I I think when you, when you're shooting less episodes. Well, Jack, you're a treasure. I'm sure our audience is just going to be thrilled to. To have to listen to these stories that you have to tell and the body of your work. And it's so much fun to see you 30 years later.

[Jack Bender]

I know. You know what? Time is not what we thought it was, is it? No, no, it just isn't. And we really. I feel very blessed to be able to be doing the work at this point that I love with people I love. Halifax is a long way from Los Angeles, where I live, and I miss my wife who comes and goes, and my daughters and dogs and everything. But I will say I'm working with exceptional people here and I would take them anywhere. And to be doing work that I love, that I'm proud of, it may not be lighting the world on fire like, like Game of Thrones or any of that, but I'm very proud of what I'm doing and feel very blessed to be do. Asked to be doing it.

[Rob Morrow]

We're thankful for have you giving us some of your valuable time. It's been really fun. This has been a great episode, Great stories and.

[Janine Turner]

And I'm glad. You don't remember when I gave you grief in front of the Christmas tree. No, I don't even remember what it was. I don't. I just. We were just tired. And now that you said it was 10:30 at night when we were starting, I guess I can give myself a little grace.

[Jack Bender]

Meeting the new director. Right?

[Janine Turner]

The new director at night. And we'd been probably finishing the other one.

[Jack Bender]

All right. This is a real pleasure for me. I'm so glad you asked. And next time I run into you, Rob, or Janine, it'll be hopefully at a restaurant where we could laugh and talk more. And I will get you my book. I am sorry.

[Janine Turner]

So this was a fabulous episode. What great behind, behind the scenes stories. And we look forward to seeing you next week with the o' Connell and Fleischman podcast, Northern Disclosure.

[Rob Morrow]

Actually, I think it should be Fleischman o'.

[Janine Turner]

Connell. In your dreams, Fleischman.

[Jack Bender]

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen.

[Janine Turner]

Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson.

[Jack Bender]

And Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.

[Rob Morrow]

Here we have the Limu emu in.

[Jack Bender]

Its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Rob Morrow]

Fascinating.

[Jack Bender]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us.

[Rob Morrow]

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[Jack Bender]

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[Rob Morrow]

By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Jack Bender]

Men need a store that has the right thing for their thing. Like a Kenneth Cole suit made with.

[Rob Morrow]

Choflex fabric to keep them cool at.

[Jack Bender]

Their cousin in law's third wedding in the middle of July. Whatever the thing, Men's Wearhouse has the clothes for it. Love the way you look. Men's Wearhouse.