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Northern Disclosure
S4E12: "Revelations" with Daniel Attias
01:01:43
Rob Morrow and Janine Turner are joined by special guest Daniel Attias, director of Northern Exposure’s episode “Revelations”.
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- [00:01]
Alex Goldman
Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. You may know me as the host of Reply all, but I'm done with that.
- [00:06]
Dan Attias
I'm doing something else now.
- [00:08]
Alex Goldman
I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed. On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems and I try to solve them. Some massive and life altering and some so minuscule it'll boggle your mind. No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you. That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts or@hyperfixedpod.com.
- [00:36]
Podcast Announcer
The Internet gives us a glimpse into the crazy happening all around us. Unhinged behavior, personal secrets, unbelievable coincidences. It's all one big circus. And the RR show is your front row seat. Each week we curate the wildest Reddit stories just for you. Whether you're into hilarious accidents, insane relationship drama, or pure chaos, these insane confessions are sure to make your jaw drop. Listen to the RR show weekly on Mondays via your favorite podcast platform, or get your episodes early and ad free by becoming a member. The RR Show. All of the drama, none of the hassle.
- [01:25]
Jeanine Turner
Hi everyone, I'm Jeanine Turner. Welcome to Northern Disclosure, where Rob Morrow and I walk through every episode of Northern Exposure. Welcome to the show. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button and tell all your friends. Rob and I talk about the fact they're people that don't know about the show. So I don't know how. However you want to do that, just send a little text, say hey, have you checked it out? But welcome, welcome. Today we're going to talk about season four, episode 12, Revelations, which I'm not in, but that's okay. I loved it. It was always Northern Exposure is always wonderful whether I'm in it or not. Rob and I, I always try, we are always trying to remember what were we doing on our day off. I have no clue, but I was probably riding my horse and sleeping. So Rob, welcome to the show. Rob Morrow.
- [02:14]
Rob Morrow
Well, thanks. How's it going?
- [02:16]
Jeanine Turner
Really good, Surviving. Good.
- [02:18]
Rob Morrow
There you go. Surviving is the is. I'm surviving as well. So this, you know, first of all I want to read. You know, we got someone, our production sent me this fan letter that I thought I'd just read, you know, because I. We want people to know that we, we see them and so this is a little long, but I'm going to read it. Hey, Janine and Rob, I loved following the pod, which is great. And reconnecting with the show from the uk, I watched Northern Exposure. As a teenager growing up in Cheshire, just outside of Manchester in northern England, we used to watch the show on Channel 4 on Monday night where all the best and forward looking shows used to be. Watching all the episodes again has been such a treat. Remembering how much I love show, I look back and think how much I look up to Flesh. I looked up to Fleischman and how that influenced me in my life. And of course, like so many teens watching Northern Exposure, I was head over heels for Maggie. I do have a bone to pick though. I didn't think you bigged up the Midnight sun episode enough. A couple of podcasts ago. This was definitely in my top all time three episodes. I thought it was one of Rob's best performances with the long shots and dialogue. I guess the sports angle helped, but it was one episode I always remembered. Oh, and Janine was looking great in that show too. I'm now electric lecturer in art at Design and Art and Design at UK University and work as an artist also. Having lived in London, Ireland and Liverpool, but now, but never America, I feel certain that the show influenced me and in going down the arts route in my life. Anywho, thank you so much for Northern Exposure and the fantastic podcast. Long Live Northern Exposure. All the best, Anthony Ellis.
- [03:57]
Jeanine Turner
Oh, thank you, Anthony Ellis.
- [04:00]
Rob Morrow
So I thought that was sweet, right?
- [04:02]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah, that's so sweet. Midnight sun was a really good episode.
- [04:05]
Rob Morrow
It was a good episode.
- [04:07]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah. And you were excellent in it. Cause you were up all night long and playing that basketball and. Well, thank you, Anthony. I love England. I love Ireland. I've been to Ireland. I've yet to be to. I haven't gone to Scotland, but I supposedly have English and Irish roots. Or maybe they're Scottish. I'm a little confused. I need to do the like saliva test where then everybody has my DNA and can like make a replica of me later. Without a soul.
- [04:32]
Rob Morrow
What's wrong with that? Oh, without a soul.
- [04:35]
Jeanine Turner
I would really like to be here with a soul. I mean, I do think we're becoming Blade Runner. Yeah. Sooner or later. But thank you, Anthony for that. Very, very lovely. And I love your country. It's a beautiful, beautiful place. So in all the surrounding countries and
- [04:50]
Rob Morrow
republics, this is a fun episode. Revelations. We have a great guest. But first I'll just read the synopsis because we know everyone likes to hear that Dr. Joel is stymied by the apparent health healthiness of Sicily's residents. He has no patience upon whom to practice and this throws him into an existential crisis. Chris in the Meantime, has taken a sabbatical to a monastery for his own little bit of contemporary living, but discovers a strange attraction to a brother there. Ruthanne finally pays off the mortgage of her store, but Maurice has a hard time letting go of control he's had over the store all these years. The conflict wreaks havoc on poor Ed, who's stuck between their battling and.
- [05:33]
Jeanine Turner
Andy and Diane wrote it and they're always amazing and they're. The depth of their writing was rich and the way they had their pulse on the soul and the spirit and the world and philosophy, science. I mean every. It was. And before the days of Internet. It's really amazing.
- [05:58]
Rob Morrow
And this is very pro women, this episode. So I think that comes from the fact that they were a couple. You know, there was Diane and Andy together, and so there's always a kind of a respect for women, a fresh respect for women that I like from. From their writing.
- [06:15]
Jeanine Turner
Yes, it was. I love the strength of Peg Phillips with. With that she paid off her loan and standing her own for that certain kind of paint that she wanted that I think it was Desert Sands and how daring comes in and makes sure that like the. Between the two parents want. Find between the two of them. And they end up having respect at the end. But they do. They. They come down pretty hard on each other.
- [06:36]
Rob Morrow
It's.
- [06:36]
Jeanine Turner
That's. I guess a. It was like woo. Okay. But in the end it. It was. It was resolved and the whole situation with. With Corbett, with Chris. With Chris at the. At the. At the monastery. What would they call it? Monastery.
- [06:52]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, monastery.
- [06:53]
Dan Attias
That's what it was.
- [06:54]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah.
- [06:55]
Alex Goldman
They.
- [06:55]
Jeanine Turner
Some. It sounded like the feminine version to me for some reason, but that was a great storyline and the twist at the end. I don't know if we want to give it away. I guess everybody knows.
- [07:05]
Rob Morrow
Oh, well, let's get our guest on. I think I don't want to give
- [07:08]
Jeanine Turner
the surprise away because it's a surprise what happens at the end.
- [07:11]
Rob Morrow
Okay, well, we'll talk about it when we get him on. This is a great director and just a great guy. He directed five episodes of Northern Exposure. Also has a book out on directing called Directing great television inside TV's new golden age. For any of you directors or just showbiz aficionados, it's. I read it and it's chock full of really great information. And so for you directors out there, definitely pick that up. But this is a director who's. This is Dan Adias and he directed tell me lies eight episodes. Lucky Hank. Two episodes Billions, which I was on three episodes. Penny Dreadful. It goes on and on. Homeland, eight episodes. The Marvelous, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Snowfall, Castle Rock. Americans, five episodes. I mean, his. His credits go on and on and on. I could spend the whole. I could extend our whole podcast here reading his credits. But welcome the Great Dan Attias.
- [08:10]
Dan Attias
30 years later. It's great.
- [08:12]
Rob Morrow
Dan. What. Where. How did you start out in showbiz?
- [08:16]
Dan Attias
Ah, well, I. When I finally realized I wanted to be a director after college, when I got into law school and realized that wasn't for me, I. I actually studied to be an actor for about three years. So I wanted to do that, but that wasn't. Skills were best suited, and I found directing, and I started an MFA program at UCLA in directing and didn't have a thesis film, so I didn't want. Couldn't finish it. And instead of just hanging around, I applied to the assistant director's training program, which still is going on at the dga. It's a way to kind of apprentice and become an ad and so I did that for about two years as a trainee, two years as a second AD And I worked on some big shows. I was a second AD on ET Extraterrestrial, and. Oh, cool.
- [09:06]
Rob Morrow
I just saw his new movie. I just saw Disclosure Day.
- [09:09]
Dan Attias
And what did you think? I didn't see it yet.
- [09:11]
Rob Morrow
I loved it. I really loved it. It's just a big Hollywood original blockbuster. And it's fun and it's interesting and intriguing, and there's some maybe plot issues and things like that, but who cares? It's Spielberg, and he's just a master, and he takes you on a fun romp.
- [09:29]
Jeanine Turner
I'm in LA this weekend, so I'm gonna go to Westwood, California and watch it on a big screen.
- [09:35]
Rob Morrow
Oh, there you go. Well, you want to see it in IMAX if you can, Janine? Okay. Century City. There's not. There's not a lot of theaters in Westwood open anymore.
- [09:43]
Jeanine Turner
Really? They close those big, huge theaters. How sad.
- [09:47]
Rob Morrow
All closed. Yeah. Yeah. But, Dan, what was Spielberg? You must have learned so much. I just was listening to a podcast and Seth Rogen was talking about when he did. When he did the Fablemans, he would stand, you know, next to Spielberg with an iPad and pull up scenes from his movies and say, how'd you block that? How'd you shoot that? Like, and Spielberg loved to tell him.
- [10:08]
Dan Attias
Yeah, well, he's. I mean, he's got the gift. I mean, he just. He just. The way he would just approach things and just see things and know what he wanted. And you just kind of would be listening. And he designed something and it was genius. I mean, it's hard to know what his process is because he just was so instant with his solutions. I mean, I'm sure he thought about it in advance. But, I mean, there's a famous story about. What's the World War II movie, the famous Saving Private Ryan. I mean, it was a story about him, like, having designed this massive sequence for the opening landing or something based on the scout. And when they got there to shoot, somehow the sun was not where. I don't know, he had been told it was gonna be. And they couldn't shoot in the whole. And he just, like, said, well, give me a minute. And he turns, like, in a very short amount of time, he designs this incredibly complicated sequence of the landing and the whole thing.
- [11:05]
Rob Morrow
It's one of the most extraordinary sequences ever put to film. I mean, it's amazing, right when you
- [11:11]
Dan Attias
have that kind of storytelling gift and knowledge of kind of where the. You know how the audience is receiving something and you're. I think you have to be. This is kind of something I talked about in my book, actually. But I think as a director, you always have to have. You know, you have to be part audience and part storyteller at the same time. Because you're constantly having to know where the audience is at every moment. By kind of being that audience at every moment as you watch it. Where am I now feeling? Where do I want to be? He just does it. And it's kind of impossible to describe.
- [11:56]
Rob Morrow
So how'd you come to Northern Exposure?
- [11:58]
Dan Attias
Well, so I got. When I became a director and started working in television. Northern Exposure is such a great show. And I really, really longed to do it. And I was doing. I kind of cut my teeth episodically on the Original Beverly Hills 90210. I did like 20 of those episodes the first four seasons. But I was desperate to do Northern. Cause that was by far the smartest show. It's like something I also say in my book, which is talking about the golden age of television. Northern should definitely be in that. Even though it's kind of before what's considered it, you know, golden age is kind of set it like Sopranos and Beyond. But Northern at any age would have been. You know, I think it suffers from the fact that it was ahead of its time in a certain way.
- [12:50]
Rob Morrow
I think so. And I think it also. It teed up a lot of those shows totally.
- [12:55]
Dan Attias
And in terms of not going for the easy laugh or having sophisticated, nuanced stories and characters that you couldn't just say are good or bad or formulaic. Every story and Revelations is a great example of it. Just like you said, Rob. It's like they had their own every show. It's like a one off. It's like a little movie. And the writers were free to explore really interesting ideas, open ended questions. And the humor just always greatly appealed to me. It was so sophisticated and nuanced and hilarious. This kind of. I think I heard Josh talk at one point about in a newspaper article at the time. He says he always thought of this show as kind of the confrontation with the other. It's like when you meet the other and what happens. And it was a perfect. I mean, your character, total fish out of water coming to these strange characters in Alaska, which I don't know if it's come up in your show before. And I was always tickled. I've heard it said about Alaskans that they say in terms of finding a man there for a couple, it's like the women would say, well, well, I know, finding a woman, whatever. Well, the odds are good, but the goods are odd.
- [14:12]
Rob Morrow
I love that.
- [14:15]
Dan Attias
Yeah. And they're trying to get away. They don't really. And it's like they're all their own people. They don't want to be, you know, conventionalized. And so what a brilliant place to set it. And so that was just. I just loved it. And the humor always was funny and fantastic and how I got it, I'm not really sure. I had done some David Kelly shows like the Practice and stuff. So I guess those were the higher prestige shows at the time. And somehow I get called to do it. And Revelations was my first episode. I wound up working on the last three or four seasons, whatever it was a total of five episodes.
- [14:54]
Rob Morrow
I remember working with you, that was just such a. You just have such a nice calm. You were talking about Spielberg knowing what he wants, you know, what you want. And yet, you know, like the great directors, you don't shove it in our faces. You kind of let us explore and find it. And I do remember that specifically, it was a calm. You were a calm presence from the minute you arrived.
- [15:15]
Dan Attias
That's very nice to hear. Well, you know, as a form, as training, having trained to be an actor, I have. All my sympathies are with. I mean, I recognize how difficult it is and how unique everyone is and how difficult it is to kind of inhabit a whole nother set of imaginative circumstances and be yourself, but be true to the story and the character's background and all that stuff. It's an amazingly challenging situation, and you're right there. And then when they say roll, it's on film. So I get how hard it is. So my bias has always been partly because I felt I wasn't good. I mean, I felt I. You know, I got in my own way so much at the time that I. I really have a value of not getting in the actor's way. The challenge, of course, is I have to be the storyteller as a director. So I have to make sure that what you guys are choosing or coming up with molds into the story, advances the story, conveys the necessary pieces of the structure of it that move the story along. So that's the dance. But I really appreciate you saying that.
- [16:21]
Jeanine Turner
I think that that's because you trained as an actor, you know, initially. That really shows in the way that you relate with actors and find the humanity within every scene, in the way you're talking about. Spielberg did the same thing, and you did it the same. Well, in the same way. And I just watched Sugarland Express that Spielberg's. One of his first movies. Do y' all remember that one?
- [16:43]
Rob Morrow
Yeah. It's got Goldie Hawn, right?
- [16:45]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah, Goldie Hawn.
- [16:46]
Rob Morrow
And then she's got Wyatt. Her son is in Disclosure day.
- [16:51]
Alex Goldman
No.
- [16:51]
Jeanine Turner
You're kidding. Wow. Okay. Small world, which. I'm gonna go see this. But in Sugarland Express, there was such a complexity of humor and tragedy and suspense, but also humanity. The way he directed Goldie Hawn in the Bat, in that back seat, to have all those meltdowns and all those emotions. And what I find about Spielberg, which is very evident, I think, in Northern Exposure, but maybe on a bit of a more calm scale. Spielberg. I just watched Close Encounters the other day, right?
- [17:22]
Dan Attias
Man.
- [17:22]
Jeanine Turner
Richard Dreyfuss and his wife, they were going nuts, right? They were throwing things and the passion. They're all this. All those kids are everywhere. He really. I love the way he shows the underbelly of humanity. Everyone's like, oh, I have to be, you know, perfectly positioned. And I'm the great mother, and I'm the great father. But he shows the real world. Families arguing, children out of control. And I think that you have a knack to do the same thing, Dan, to just show the sense of humanity which really revealed itself, I think, especially. Well, I mean, I guess you saw the chaos between Maurice and Peg, you know, in this show, Maurice and Ruthanne. But you also see that Struggle of humanity with the Chris storyline.
- [18:06]
Dan Attias
Well, let me jump in, because that's one of the things I really loved about the script and the episode was I had a bit of a meditation practice at the time, and I still do. And I loved. And I'll just say, parenthetically, there's a very famous meditation teacher. His name is Jack Kornfield. I don't know if you guys know him. He's been doing it forever and he's written many books. And around that time, in the mid-90s, I went to a retreat. He's still doing his thing, but I went to a retreat that he was running. And I had just. For some. I brought a VHS member, VHS of Revelations. It was just like the year I had done it, because I thought I'd love him to. Because it's such a brilliant, hilarious look at meditation. I mean, just what. But, Rob, you went through that scene with Marilyn that I could sit for five minutes. Of course I could sit for five minutes. That was just one of my favorite scenes of all time. It's like the way you kind of, you know, what was revealed is like we all live with this assumption of who we are. We're totally in control of ourselves. We're the master. To me, you know, we're this little self that I identify with. I'm a doctor in Alaska, I'm a director in Hollywood, or, you know, that's who I am. And I can. I'm in control of it, you know, and it's like meditation just throws the lie at that because we don't control our thoughts.
- [19:23]
Rob Morrow
Well, what's funny is I remember shooting that scene and having a hard time. I didn't. You know, it's funny where the. Where we're different from our characters and similar. There's certain ways I'm very much like Joel, and there's certain ways I'm very different. And I'm a big. I meditate for. I meditate every day for a lot. A long time in the morning, but
- [19:40]
Jeanine Turner
not during Northern Exposure days. It's new, right?
- [19:42]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, you're probably right. But I knew. I always knew I was going to be a meditator. I always knew it. And so when I took it on, I took TM 15 years ago or something like that, I. You know, it just was natural evolution for me. And I remember getting an argument. I don't know if I argued with you, Dan, but maybe with the writers that I just was like, anyone could sit for five minutes. Five minutes is such a short amount of time. And I was so. I was so against it, but I went with it. And obviously I. I gave it my whole self to it. But it does play really well when I watch it, in retrospect.
- [20:21]
Jeanine Turner
Well, the problem is you can't. You can't. On television. You can't meditate for five whole minutes.
- [20:26]
Dan Attias
But they were very smart, the writers, how they constructed it. Because. Because I just. Watching it again, because I realized too, look, when I sit and meditate, even, you know, to this day, you know, it's like there are times when I just can't concentrate.
- [20:38]
Jeanine Turner
It's just.
- [20:39]
Dan Attias
I got to get up. I got to get up. You know, that's everything that you demonstrate is us looking around. Looking around.
- [20:44]
Rob Morrow
Most of the time in meditation. I'm thinking of other stuff that I
- [20:47]
Dan Attias
shouldn't be welcome to reality.
- [20:50]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:52]
Dan Attias
But they don't have Marilyn staring at you. And that's what was so great about the construction of it. Cause just watching it, it's like, first of all, what a magical character she was.
- [21:03]
Rob Morrow
And so great in this episode.
- [21:05]
Jeanine Turner
Yes.
- [21:06]
Dan Attias
And it's like. So every time. I mean, I was recognizing. Okay. You know. Cause I think that's what we do when we watch shows. We identify. Right. And the great actors invite you in, so you feel it's kind of your experience. So it's like, you know. Yeah, yeah, I know that completely. I mean, the tapping on the finger, you know, it's like. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I'm there. Okay. I'm doing that. I'm calming myself down. But then you look at this person who is Buddha, you know, just staring at you.
- [21:33]
Jeanine Turner
It was that juxtaposition of the Native American spirituality, you know, the way they do meditate and they commune with nature and whatnot, and her ability to do that. And then Fleischman, who's very New York City high energy, it was a fabulous yin and yang, you know, to show that juxtaposition. But I loved at the end when she held her hand out like. Like this. Yeah, she held her hand out. She followed you out. And she goes, where's my money? You know, and, you know.
- [22:01]
Dan Attias
You know what's interesting? I. I often, when I direct, I try to kind of sense into what's the gestalt of the show. It's because, you know, there's just. Just different storylines and a well constructed episode of television. The storylines kind of comment on one another, you know, and it's not always obvious. And it's not obvious in this one because, you know, Ruthanne and. And, you know, And Maurice. And it's like, what does that have to anything or Chris and all that. But there is a common thread. And the thing that I really noticed is that the ways we lie to ourselves, the way we don't look at reality, at truth. And that's what meditation is. It's just in a way it's like what is here now? And it's like. But if it interrupts our agendas or creating our sense of self or it's like that's when we have trouble. But it's like the reality is we try to get away from it. Marilyn was just there to remind you of the reality. You can't get away from any of it. None of your games, none of your distractions. You can't feel better even for a moment. Like I'm doing really okay. It's a minute and a half. No, you haven't, you haven't sat at all. And it's like this. Other storylines are similar to that in a way. Because like I'm thinking like with, oh, I don't know, like Darren is so funny with Maurice. It's like he's just always trying to understand what's the truth here. And these other Char and Maurice and neither of them can acknowledge their real feelings and they keep justifying like they're the ones who really should be self righteous. And they're all. And it's like Darren is just like the meta. He's like the Buddha in the room. He's in that relationship. He's like the Buddha. He's just trying to. What's really true right now.
- [23:48]
Rob Morrow
What I came up way with in terms of thematically, you know, the gestalt of what you're talking about was this notion of control.
- [23:56]
Dan Attias
Yeah, well, in meditation you have to give that up. Right? Right.
- [23:59]
Rob Morrow
It's like all the stories seem to revolve around that.
- [24:02]
Jeanine Turner
And the way I relate to it is self will run riot. You know, giving your will to, whether it's meditation or higher power, whatever that might be for you, God, Holy Spirit, whatever it is. It's the reminder when you go into these meditative states that there's something more than who we are. But what's hard to do is to let go of the self will and to say, okay, I'm here for a purp purpose and I need to accomplish something, but my self will run riot is kind of in the way. And in meditation we kind of have to get it out. Like, oh, I need to do this, I need to do that.
- [24:34]
Dan Attias
I totally agree with you. And even beyond that, a lot of meditation, teaching, and everything is not only you have to get rid of self, will you have to get rid of self that it's like, there's no self here. And what is so great in the episode is it's like. And I really appreciated this just watching it is how it ends towards the end. Richard Cummings, Bernard, it's like, he's hilarious because it's such great device, having this DJ spew all this brilliant wisdom. First it's Chris, and now it's Bernard comes in. And I remember being really worried because I hadn't worked with Richard. And I thought, God, how can anybody be like Corbett? You know, it's like he's. But he really did. I mean, he played that same kind of whimsical, kind of in touch with something. And I loved with the scene, Rob, when you drive out in the woods, let's go play basketball. And he. And he's just saying, no, you got, you know, really what you got to find out is you're nobody. You don't even exist. It's like you got to just sit. None of it means anything. You're nothing. You know, and it's like, that's when you say, okay, I'm going to go sit. But it's like, in a way, he's stating the spiritual understanding that none of us can really accept. And what I loved is, of course you can't accept it. I loved is at the end that what kind of cinches the episode together for me is when you. You're down and out. You're out back out there in the woods, say, forget it, I can't take anymore. And he said, he does the Zen. He like, says, I'm sick. He backs off, trying to give you too much truth at once, which you can't take. He says, this poor soul needs his attachments, and I'm gonna give it to him. I'm gonna not be so purist as I was before, saying, no, don't you see? None of us mean anything. We don't even exist. It's nothing. He says, I'm sick. So he gives you back your identity, and then you come alive and life can go on.
- [26:26]
Rob Morrow
It's a wild phenomenon. Like Jeanine, to your point about will and stuff, like, you know, as I said, I've been. Now it's pro. Over 15, 18 years of me meditating every day. And as I said, it's like, you know, often these days, an hour, hour and a half. And yet most of that time is spent Thinking. But what blows my mind, blows my mind. What blows my mind is that I will be off and running for so long on some thought tangent. Ambition will, if you will, before I know it. And it'll be like, I don't know how much time goes by where I'm like, oh, my God, I'm just spending this all this time thinking and that. That's just a man. And I'm like, not an. A great. An expert meditator, but I've done enough that I should be able to catch it right away. But it goes. It can be five, 10 minutes where I'm like, thinking about the job I want or the house I want to build or whatever it is.
- [27:20]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah, Rob, you and I are so much alike. That's what I'm realizing more and more and more are how much alike Rob and I are in our passions and our searches and kind of the trajectory of our. We even both have one daughter. You know, I just think that there's this kind of bond between us that's even spiritual. But what I've started doing is I just hand it over to the Holy Spirit and I just say, okay, I wanna control this, and I want this to be a certain way. But obviously, you know, at 63 years of age, I finally realized I can't. I can't get in. I can't argue my way or debate my way into someone seeing what I need them to see. And I need to just let go of it and turn it over to substitute whatever your religion is, higher power gods and Buddha, whatever. For me, it's the Holy Spirit. And I have just been turning it over, going, okay, you know what you do, you deal with this. It's like you go into this situation and it's been amazing. I mean, it's been amazing to see when I let go of it, to see the results that come forth from it. I mean, right now, I can't think of as. You know, I hearken back, I'd have to go through all my memory bank to figure out the moment. But it is truly amazing when we let go and let God, whether it's Buddha or Hebrew or Muslim or Christianity, whatever it may be, to just say, you know what? I'm gonna give this to you, and I'm gonna try to connect to that. And I guess that's what's happening in the storyline with Chris when he goes to the monastery.
- [28:52]
Rob Morrow
And by the way, we should throw out that the great Steven Root plays Brother Tim. Stephen Root is just such a. He's on a Show I'm watching now called Widow's Bay, which is really fun on Netflix.
- [29:03]
Dan Attias
He's always fantastic.
- [29:04]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, Always fantastic. And this. He was a young man, you know, he was. You know, it was 75 years ago, whatever it was.
- [29:11]
Dan Attias
And he was so dry and hilarious the way he. Yeah, I mean, it's like. That's something northern always does is. It's like it punctures stereotypes. And it was so great about going to the monastery. And you have Chris, who's full of idealism. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna wear a hair shirt. I'm gonna be like St. Thomas Aquinas. I'm gonna be. You know. And he goes there and he says, no, yeah, it's Castle. Yeah. Why would.
- [29:35]
Rob Morrow
That's so funny. That's such a great northern exposure. My wife was watching, and she was. She caught that. She was like, it's so funny that they would have cassoulet.
- [29:43]
Dan Attias
Yeah, yeah. And then he asked for hair shoes. Oh, no, no. We stopped that a long time ago. And then. And then he goes. And then also. And then he doesn't get off the hook either, because nobody gets idealized so that during confession, you know, Steven Root can't deal with what. I don't want to hear about that. Oh, my God. No. Dun, dun. You know, it's like, you know, so nobody gets off the hook. We're all just human beings trying, and. And we're all imperfect, and we never going to get enlightened. It's just. We're going to do our best, and there'll be moments of grace.
- [30:11]
Jeanine Turner
We're going to have stair steps of enlightenment. Right. We won't reach full enlightenment till we pass, I think. I don't think. But there's stair steps, and we may go two step, you know, two steps up, one step back. Two steps up, one step back.
- [30:24]
Dan Attias
But you never stick on the plateau. That's you. You're going to fall again. Fall down again. Yeah, yeah.
- [30:29]
Jeanine Turner
Oh, yeah. No, no, we don't get there, I don't think until. Until we die.
- [30:32]
Podcast Announcer
But.
- [30:32]
Jeanine Turner
But I love the way at the end when she breaks her vow. Vowel.
- [30:38]
Dan Attias
Vow.
- [30:39]
Jeanine Turner
Vow. That's my Southern accent. She breaks her vowel. She breaks her vow and comes in and says. And reveals that she's a woman, that he's been attracted to a woman the entire time he thought he was attracted to a man. He says, what about your vow to silence? You just broke it. And she said, because I thought this was something that was important, that was more important. I thought you needed to know. And I thought that was really cool
- [31:07]
Dan Attias
to, you know, that mirrors, too, in a nice way what Bernard does. It's like he leaves his being so purist about what he's doing. He breaks. He basically says, okay, I'm going to do what I was trying to convey to Fleischman, that he should just accept that he's nothing. No, I'm going to give it to him back because it's not right for him. She does a similar thing for him because she sees he's suffering so much. It would not be right action, so to speak, to make him suffer so much. I'm going to let him know. Know. If it bothers you so much to have been attracted to a man, I'm just going to point out to you you weren't. If that. If you're. If that's what's hanging you up.
- [31:46]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah. And that was distracting him from reaching God. Right. So when, when, when he could let go of that, then it's like Rob talking about all the, you know, the house I want to design and things of that nature. When he could let go, she did. She gave him a real gift. I think sometimes God guides us to do. To do those things for people that through us, if we're open to, like, let go of that. And then he. He could perceive. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to get started and do something with it. Everything you need to start selling is there from day one, from setting up your store to getting paid. That means less time worrying about setup and more time actually building your business. Creating, selling, growing, and hearing that first sale come through. And Shopify checkout keeps it easy by helping more customers finish their purchases. And when they come back, the details are already saved. One tap and they're done. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial@shopify.com Northern. That's shopify.com Northern. Don't wait. Head to shopify.com North Northern today.
- [33:12]
Dan Attias
So let me. Let me talk for a minute about that storyline, because there's some stories from the. From the filming it which I think are kind of interesting or interesting to me. I really connected to this story and I felt like in. In just about every instance, I really knew where I wanted it to go and where the humor was and all that. But one area where I. Where Josh really kind of of changed what I wanted to do was at that time, I was doing a lot of work about men's work about, like, the, you know, feminine and the masculine and all that and these different principles. So it really interested me where the story went, which was, you know, at the end, Chris comes back and is announcing to everybody that I did get a revelation. And the revelation is that when you're just so purely masculine that you're not in touch with God, that really woman has to be part of any real spiritual realization. And that's when they show the. You know, the women around Sicily and all that, which I thought was very beautiful. But I. So I started thinking, okay, so Chris is. Is drawn to this. And I think the subtext of the story to me was he was actually drawn to this woman. But. But the fact that she wasn't revealing that she was a woman. He thought she was a man. And so then he started getting confused and his whole sexual identity. And then when she reveals she's a woman, you know, really what's being restored is that both masculine and feminine have to be a part of any spiritual realization. But I thought that the reveal of her should be this transcendently beautiful woman, because I was thinking she's like the eternal feminine. And I had. I had cast some people that were close to that I thought just were like, you know, that anybody would look at and just think is, oh, my God, a goddess, Something like that. And I cast someone. I didn't get who I wanted. And then we went to Seattle and I cast somebody else. And then Josh made us reshoot that.
- [35:18]
Rob Morrow
Oh, you're kidding. Wait, you had a. Wait, you shot it with a different woman?
- [35:21]
Dan Attias
Yeah, Well, I mean, I also shot the reshoot, but I shot it with someone who was more kind of just spiritually magnificent.
- [35:30]
Rob Morrow
That's amazing.
- [35:32]
Dan Attias
And he wanted someone who was just kind of of. You know, I'm saying these words. I don't mean them to be pejorative, but it's like he's someone who's kind of plain and down to earth and just kind of not any kind of feminine ideal that we normally associate. Just someone who seems like, okay, I'm just a woman, and this is what I want, but when. And so I always thought, oh, we missed something by doing that. But as I watched it again, I thought, well, first of all, she had a kind of beauty, but it's a real beauty. It was just natural.
- [36:01]
Rob Morrow
I agree, Dan.
- [36:03]
Dan Attias
Right. That you don't have to be this beautiful male ideal of the feminine. You know, it's like women are tough and real and. And can take care of business.
- [36:12]
Rob Morrow
And going against the trope of television is a. Is a. Is a good thing, I think. And Josh does that all the time, you know, and, and. And man the balls to reshoot something. I mean, how often.
- [36:24]
Dan Attias
How.
- [36:25]
Rob Morrow
Tell me, how much do you reshoot something in television these days?
- [36:28]
Dan Attias
Yeah, very. I can't think of. Yeah, well.
- [36:31]
Jeanine Turner
And where. Where did you reshoot it and when.
- [36:33]
Dan Attias
When in Seattle, I guess. Yeah, that's a good question. It must have been. He saw Daly's early on and he said shoot it before. It was probably in the context of the whole schedule.
- [36:43]
Jeanine Turner
Did Corbett have to reshoot too, like his reaction to her?
- [36:47]
Dan Attias
No, because they were never in the same shot in that scene, she just comes in the door and takes off her hood. So it was an easy reshoot.
- [36:53]
Jeanine Turner
But I mean, initially he saw the initial actress, correct?
- [36:57]
Dan Attias
Yeah, he did.
- [36:58]
Jeanine Turner
So that's also. That's interesting because that's in a way a manipulation of the actor's performance because he was respond to a certain woman.
- [37:06]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, but that's good. I think that works good for it.
- [37:10]
Jeanine Turner
But he might have responded differently to the other woman in an equally interesting and valuable way, but with a different tweak.
- [37:17]
Dan Attias
Or he might not have.
- [37:19]
Jeanine Turner
But he might have. I think he might have.
- [37:21]
Dan Attias
You know, that's one of the tensions, I think, in creating these shows is, you know, and actors. I get your sensitivity to it, but actors, performances do get manipulated different from now. It's not to say they wouldn't have done a similar thing or something better or something worse, but that's just, you know, like, you know, that's just. I think part of the. The process. It just. You get into the editing room and often reactions are changed just by how you edit it.
- [37:47]
Rob Morrow
For sure. I think it's cool. I think it's a cool way to have. To have him gone through to. To have him see something that he felt, you know, was like the classic beauty. And then in reality it was just this. This normal woman.
- [38:00]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah. No, but Rob, how would. How would you have really felt, though, Rob, because you're a stickler about these things, right?
- [38:05]
Rob Morrow
No, I think I disagree. I would have loved it. I mean, I want to be manipulated.
- [38:10]
Jeanine Turner
No, you don't. You never wanted to be manipulated on set.
- [38:13]
Rob Morrow
No, no, I want to be manipulated to get the performance, if any. If someone can do something, for instance, if someone can do something off screen to make me have the right reaction, I want it. I don't care whether it has anything to do with the thing. I want to get the truth.
- [38:27]
Jeanine Turner
True, but if you had Reacted. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing. We're just being philosophical. If you had reacted to. To a certain woman and you gave that reaction to that woman, and then later you find out they put a completely different woman in there that you might have reacted to differently, I can't imagine you would have just been like, oh, super cool. I just. That doesn't seem within your. That's not the Rob Morrow I worked with.
- [38:52]
Rob Morrow
Well, it's the Rob Morrow I am. And it's the concept that Dan's explaining to me about what they were going for, and then what they got to me is brilliant. So I would have welcomed it.
- [39:03]
Jeanine Turner
It's an interesting thought. I mean, in the long run, you have control. Talk about control, right? I mean, the theme. The theme of the show.
- [39:10]
Rob Morrow
When I was doing the movie Quiz show, there was a scene where I had. I nail Ray Fines. I kind of nail him. And I was so committed to that that. That I. I was a little intimidating. And when we came around to do his. And he has to act like it's. It's nothing. He has to act like he doesn't care. Right. So you see me go, you're guilty. Right. But then you see his reaction. He's like, I didn't do anything. Right. And came time to turn around on Rafe, he asked me, he said, would you do me a favor? Because every time I. When I'm working with an actor, I always say to them, when they get to their closeup, would you like me to do anything different? Because I know what they want to get may not have to do with what I'm giving. So I said to Rafe, I said, is there anything you want me to do different? He said, yeah, would you play it as if I'm totally innocent? And so I did the scene on his closeup completely different than what I did on mine. And so he was able to.
- [40:07]
Jeanine Turner
Easy.
- [40:07]
Rob Morrow
It was easier for him to react to the. That he wasn't guilty.
- [40:11]
Jeanine Turner
But he was still reacting to you and your performance.
- [40:15]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, but it was manipulating his performance.
- [40:18]
Dan Attias
No, he wasn't. He wasn't reacting to the character's performance. He was acting to the actor, manipulating him.
- [40:24]
Jeanine Turner
But he was reacting to what you were giving him at that moment. And what I'm saying is the girl was different, and he didn't get a chance to react to that girl at that moment.
- [40:34]
Rob Morrow
It's the result.
- [40:35]
Jeanine Turner
He still had the chance to look at you giving him that and feeding him that he could repeat. Respond to.
- [40:41]
Dan Attias
I'm going to Wade into this and maybe get controversial. But I think it's important for an actor to understand their own limitations, because I promise you, a director and the audience do understand those limitations. And sometimes it's not possible if you're telling a certain kind of a story. I'm not saying this is true about the Corbett scene, whether whatever he would have done, but sometimes when you're telling a story that is requiring a certain level of being from a character that maybe they're not capable of reaching, like, for example, being as attracted or as moved by a woman who is ugly, say, not that she was at all, but just like, you know, to be romantic and feel these feelings towards someone who has a beauty of soul but is like, you know, but they'll only be able to reach that they know themselves well enough that they need someone truly beautiful to see. You know, it's like, because we're manipulating for the audience to receive a story, and it's like. So I think there's no shame in what Rob is saying. It's like, if Ralph Fiennes understood, I'm not gonna be just. Because when someone attacks me, I'm not going to be able to hold that poise. So I'm going to ask you not to attack me because the character has that poise. But I don't. You know what I mean? And since we're all engaged in trying to tell a story for the audience, I think there's a time to just understand ourselves well enough to know when we're not serving story and when we need help.
- [42:07]
Podcast Announcer
Yes.
- [42:08]
Jeanine Turner
I studied with Mira Rostova, a Russian coach, about not just looking at your perspective, but about looking at the script's perspective. And what is it that you're supposed to deliver to the script? All I'm saying, and I can give you a flip side of this, too, which will fit in the peg hole of what y' all are talking about. But all I'm saying is he still had Ralph Fine, still had Rob Morrow, and he was still responding to Rob Morrow, giving him what he needed. And when you. When you take a response someone gave to a certain actor and then that actor has changed, it is like a crazy violation of the response the actor might have given. It might have been completely different if. If Corbett had looked at a woman who wasn't, you know, the typical beauty, and he would have gone, oh. And he would have looked deeper, and his reaction might have been different. On the flip side, to fit into what y' all are discussing, there's also the aspect where an actor makes a choice of what. What resonates with them for that resolution. And that choice can be pasted on any actress. So I think that fits into what you're saying. There, There are two ways to look at it. I mean, if I make a choice with my acting coach and say when I. I need to. To be triggered to have this kind of emotion, I may not get it from the actor that's there. So I'm going to substitute it with somebody, somebody in my life that would have triggered that. Then it wouldn't have mattered who was standing there. So that fits into what the two of you are saying. And I think. I think the bottom line is this is what Plato hated about actors. You know what I mean? He didn't think actors were any kind of esteem because he says, you're not living the reality. You're protecting, pretending. So in the long run, we're all pretending we're not. We're pretending to be something that we're not. So, I mean, I guess we get really philosophical on the point as well. But if you as an actor have made a choice, it's really not going to matter because sometimes the actor doesn't give you at all what you want. Like Ray Finds. You know, it was very generous of you, Rob, to say, do you want me to give you something different? And then Rafe signed Ray Finds. That's really a fascinating story. And that Ra said, yeah, will you give it to me this way? Because there are a lot of times actors do not give you what you need, so you have to substitute that person anyway way so it wouldn't have made it any difference as to who was standing there. So I can see both sides of this. But I certainly wouldn't say actors are irrelevant to the process. That's not what you're saying, Dan, is it?
- [44:24]
Dan Attias
No. My God, they're critical. They're the only. The most important part of the process.
- [44:28]
Jeanine Turner
Okay, I didn't know what you were saying. When actors aren't really, you know, don't really matter. It's really about the. The piece. I mean, I don't think that's the case.
- [44:36]
Dan Attias
No, nothing. I'm saying directors don't. What matters is the experience we're creating for someone. It's like whoever, you know, it's like any. Anyway, I don't want to get into the weeds on this, but of course, I'm not saying acts don't matter.
- [44:48]
Rob Morrow
Where did you shoot that monastery, Dan? Where was that? In Seattle proper. It looked like I could see water.
- [44:53]
Dan Attias
Yeah, there Was water. And I was noticing there was a cloud cover on some of the later stuff. We couldn't really see it.
- [45:01]
Rob Morrow
Well, was it a mansion or an actual monastery?
- [45:04]
Dan Attias
It was a mansion. And all the interiors were built on stage by the great Woody Crocker. I want to just mention one other thing that I. I noticed too, I got a kick out of is the Ruthanne Maurice Darren story.
- [45:23]
Rob Morrow
By the way, you got such a great performance out of Ruth Ann.
- [45:26]
Dan Attias
Yeah, she was really good. And Barry was great, too. And Darren was great. I loved him so much. And there was just one little thing that I was really pleased about watching again was because Northern always has these kind of odd moments. Like, how did that happen? It's like this kind. It's a very spiritual show, as I think you both feel. It's like, you know, with the Native American side of it and all that. It's like always suggesting there's more here than meets the eye and what's really going on. And characters surprised. And there was this one little touch I loved, which is when, you know, he's totally befuddled. He's confronted with this impossible situation. Maurice is telling him, you gotta quit your job. And Ruth Ann. And I loved how, like, the scene with Barry, like, doing the things and is telling him. He's just, oh, I think I'll go clean out the aquarium. And this is like. It's all perfect about miscommunication. How we're all in our own little worlds of thought. You know, Barry's obsessing about Ruthanne, and Darren is obsessing about his job, what I should do next. And it's like Barry is leading him to say, quit Ruth Ann. But he thinks he's talking about cleaning the aquarium. And then finally he. Oh, he tells him. And then the next time he goes through the same drill with Ruthanne, she. He starts a little bit about his job and how much she done for him. And he just went right to it. You want me to quit? So he learned. He learned. But then when he comes up with the Hayley Mills idea of having the video and that he was going to set this up for them to come. I was thinking, okay, so how can we make this funny and interesting and really make it personal? Because when you talk to a video screen, a camera, you're just looking right the lens so that, you know, it's like you just. From whatever you're looking at the television, it looks like the person's looking right at you because you're just looking at the lens. But I Wanted Darren to, like, look like. Imagine that he knew exactly where these two people were going to be.
- [47:28]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, that was funny.
- [47:29]
Dan Attias
I love that Maurice stops and Ruth Ann stops. He turns, he says, well, like Maurice, you've got to understand that so and so happens. And Ruth Ann. And he keeps doing this. And. And it's like just a subtle little thing. First of all, it made it personal.
- [47:43]
Rob Morrow
Like, I caught it. It was a great. It was a great. It was really cool.
- [47:46]
Dan Attias
Yeah.
- [47:46]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah.
- [47:47]
Dan Attias
But it's just a very hilarious thing. Like, how did he go to do that?
- [47:50]
Rob Morrow
And by the way, nowadays, Dan, you can. You can put a. You can project an image onto the front of a lens and almost like a teleprompter. And so you can look at. You can look as if you're looking at a person.
- [48:04]
Jeanine Turner
How many times have we all acted to the. Which goes right back to imagination and making your own choices. And it doesn't matter what actress is really standing there. I mean, you can. You can look at both. I, at least I presented both sides of the coin. But I mean, so many times, like on Leave it to Beaver, the kids couldn't work anymore. They had to go off stage on Cliffhanger. We weren't on the mountains. And you're acting to an actual ex. So how cool it would be that now they can put that person there. Is that what you're saying, Rob?
- [48:29]
Rob Morrow
No. There's a technology now. You know how a teleprompter will put words over the lens, so you're actually looking in the lens, but you're seeing the words. You can put an image there, whatever
- [48:38]
Jeanine Turner
image you want to put there.
- [48:40]
Rob Morrow
Right, exactly. Yes.
- [48:42]
Jeanine Turner
Fascinating.
- [48:43]
Alex Goldman
That.
- [48:43]
Jeanine Turner
So that's really, really interesting. And you know what I. What I liked about. Well, first of all, I thought it. They were very intense with each other. So, Dan, that was a. That was a cool choice. They were angry. You know, on Northern Exposure, we usually kind of temper it with a little bit of humor, a little bit of, you know, multi layers or whatever, but they were really ugly to each other, you know, without. And I think the thing that works for Fleischmann, o' Connell so much is we might be ugly with each other, but we always have had that underlying sexual tension, which sort of gave another level to what we did, and a little bit of humor. And with the two of them, that was just intense, you know, dislike and anger. And as a child of parents who divorced and married each other three times and married to other people in between, I mean, I can relate to Darren and Darren's like, ed, how am I going to deal with these two people? And sending that videotape was, but, but also, it may be a bit of a fairy tale, but the fact that it worked, that the two of them said, oh, okay, it didn't. I mean, it's very rare. I mean, most people can't with one videotape say, oh, you know what, you're right.
- [49:46]
Dan Attias
I agree, I agree. And the story kind of built in an acknowledgment of that by how subtle it showed that it worked. Like, he comes into the store and it's so spare. And Ed is back there looking, oh my God, what's going to happen?
- [50:02]
Jeanine Turner
The desert sands paint.
- [50:04]
Dan Attias
Yeah, you can tell Maurice is doing everything he can not to say, why the fuck isn't it the same color? And he's just stopping himself. And she says, I mean, it's just like so spare and one thing. And then Ed just kind of has a smile. It worked. I mean, it acknowledges just what you're saying, how hard this is to do. And then you really appreciate the effort all of them are making on this. It was very touching.
- [50:29]
Rob Morrow
Maurice has that great line which sums up his character so well. When he goes into Ruth Ann's store and he says, give me a box of 12 gauge shotgun shells and some Emory boards.
- [50:45]
Dan Attias
And then he like. Or when he storms out before he's, I'll never set foot in this quarry again.
- [50:51]
Rob Morrow
Right.
- [50:52]
Jeanine Turner
That's what I love about Northern Exposure. I, I talk about that all the time. How he was this at masculine astronaut and yet he would iron, you know, what was her name? Samansky. Officer Szymanski. He, he, he would iron her underwear. You know, it' I mean, that Maggie o' Connell could be from Grosse Pointe and she was a bush pilot. I love the way they built all that in. Your character didn't have that much contradiction, did it, Rob?
- [51:18]
Rob Morrow
I think there was a lot of contradictions in him.
- [51:21]
Jeanine Turner
But I mean, you were from New York and you wanted to go back
- [51:23]
Rob Morrow
to New York, but he kept finding things that he loved about being there. He kept finding reasons that, that, that he loved to be there. He kept finding the redeeming quality. He kept finding the spiritual. He kept. His evolution is a kind of a, you know, a hero's journey of, of, of spiritual.
- [51:39]
Dan Attias
I want to say something about your character too, but you were going to ask me something for a minute, talk about something.
- [51:44]
Rob Morrow
Well, I was just going to say that, you know, at the ending, it's kind of like A tribute to women, you know, we were talking about before. But you know, that was so beautifully shot.
- [51:54]
Dan Attias
Oh, thanks, thanks. Yeah, it's just. Well, I mean, it's like that's the thing I love about directing and you come to different shows and why I so valued Northern Exposure because when I direct, I have to totally immerse in the sensibility of the show because I have to learn the language so I can speak it in my voice, so I can advance it, so I can kind of. And that's why I love coming to different kinds of shows because I grow every time I do it. And Northern has such a beautiful human sensitivity and non authoritarian kind of, you know, it's like an appreciation and awe, really awe about life that you never can really know and you can always be surprised and all that kind of thing. And it's so just a very human quality. So that's what I, you know, tried to bring to all the whole show. But that episode, it's like what I mean, those moments just what are the simple daily rituals that people go through that aren't. They don't experience those rituals, that's their lives. But it's just the beauty of a little girl and the beauty of three girls walking across the street, you know, high schoolers or just, you know, wanting, talking about a boyfriend or what. And you little girl playing. It's just these kind of each eternal moments that are every day around us if we stop to appreciate them. And it's like that's where Chris kind of gets at the end. It's like we all have our agendas and it's such a male oriented kind of achievement kind of thing. Like even spirituality. It's like it started out as a thing to achieve for him. I'm going to go off and become, you know, it's like you realize. No, you don't. It's letting go. It's just being here, you know, and it's like. And the women in the story just objectify that. And I think that's the part Marilyn kind of occupies in the whole, you know, the whole panoply of the show. And I just wanted. I was thinking about your character, Rob, because I so love Fleischmann. I think, I think it's some of your best work, I gotta tell you. I just think it's an amazing performance. Yeah. Because you're so human and so funny and so heartbreaking and like we totally get you this kind of energy. And I was thinking what would happen. I know there were efforts to bring the show Back. Like, advance it forward. And I was thinking, where would Fleischman be now? Because, I mean, we left you going off to this village. But I was thinking, you know, you're the one character. I mean, Fleischman Teals, to me, like, the one character you almost don't want to see change. I mean, it's like you're rooting for him to kind of become more comfortable with himself or with life or whatever. But, you know, but he's so enjoyable. And I was reflecting on a conversation I had with Hugh Laurie on House, you know, and he was such a great character, Right? And I remember the second or third season, I asked, I said, hugh, where do you think? You know, where do you think this character. Where do you want to go with this character? What do you think? Where does he evolve? And he says, I don't think people want to see him evolve. I think people want to tune in to see this character. And it's like, if he evolved, he wouldn't be that character.
- [54:50]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah.
- [54:50]
Jeanine Turner
To build on that, Dan, I would say that one of my sayings is, you can't ask a leopard to change his spots. Right. So I think we can evolve as much as we can. We can grow. We can have levels of enlightenment. Enlightenment. But at our core, you know, we're not really gonna change that much. You know what I mean? We might become more accountable. We might, you know, try to be more patient.
- [55:17]
Podcast Announcer
But.
- [55:18]
Jeanine Turner
But the who we are is kind of who we are. And it's almost, you know, it's just like I might be more tempered with it, but I'm still going to respond as. As the challenger that I am, as the advocate that I am. Am. As the seeker of justice that I am, I don't think any of that's going to change.
- [55:36]
Rob Morrow
I'm not so sure about that. I might disagree.
- [55:39]
Jeanine Turner
Well, I can change, though. I can change the way I deliver those things.
- [55:45]
Rob Morrow
Yeah, your behavior can change. Your essence doesn't change, but your behavior changes.
- [55:50]
Jeanine Turner
That's what I'm talking about. You can't change your spots. So it's like, I might go about it a different way. I may have learned to mature. I may have learned to back up. I may have learned, you know, all all kinds of ways at 63, to deal with things differently than I would have at 27. But still, the core of the challenger and seeker of justice and everything that I am, the love I have for family and friends, it's not really gonna change. And I think that to the core of what you're Talking about Dan Fleischman might have evolved, but he's still gonna be. He's still. He's gonna be a challenger. Cause he was a challenger.
- [56:23]
Dan Attias
Yeah. It's just in stories, I think there are some sets of characters that you really love to see evolve and grow. And then there are others that just feel like, you know, in a certain way, the great appeal is, I mean, like Archie Bunker you would never want to see, never saying anything mean and nasty again. It's just like you're waiting for him to do it and. Or, I mean, you know, it's. I don't know.
- [56:46]
Rob Morrow
It's in the comedy drama thing. It's the difference between comedy and drama. I think comedy wants their characters to stay the same. But I fought very hard for Fleischman to change, and Josh completely disagreed with me. You know, he said to me, literally, fleischman's gonna be the same as he was in first episode and 100 episod. And I was like, no way. And I really kind of helped influence where he went, because to me, I want my characters to change. I'm not talking about characters I play. I'm talking about characters I watch. That's why I watch. I'm not watching life. I'm watching someone to inspire. So to me, it's important that if it's a comedy, I get your point. But if it's a drama. And we were obviously a dramedy, but the dramatic element dictated plot for the most part.
- [57:30]
Jeanine Turner
Rob, you did do such a beautiful job. And when they replaced Place, you, which is. Remember, I thought it should be Marilyn as the doctor. There was just. There was. It was just so obvious, the difference of intensity, of spirit. So you brought such. It's like the fifth. The last season is like. I don't know if I can barely even watch it, you know, but you brought such intensity to your role, and you did a beautiful job. And, Dan, I would just say in closing to you, how refreshing is it to be 30, 35 years later and you remember all of these details about your directing and what you were trying to achieve in Episode? I mean, I think it's stellar, that, and very refreshing. So I thank you for bringing all those elements to the show today and what a wonderful director you are, and I hope you'll come back. Now, did I play Marilyn and Bus Stop? I don't remember.
- [58:19]
Dan Attias
Yeah, you. And it was Corbett played the cowboy who. He can't kiss you because he can't admit that he really loves you. And it's like he, you know, he's really attracted to you, and he just freaks out about it.
- [58:31]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah, I. You'll have to come back. But. But you're amazing, Dan. What. What a blessing you are to our culture. And, Dan, thank you for being.
- [58:39]
Rob Morrow
Thank you for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. I know you got a lot going on in your life, and so thanks for taking the time. And we will ask you to come back again. No doubt. So thank you.
- [58:47]
Dan Attias
Awesome.
- [58:47]
Jeanine Turner
Yeah, we'll talk about Bus Stop. I think that'd be a great one.
- [58:50]
Dan Attias
Well, there's some other good ones in between, too, so I hope. Feel free. Feel free.
- [58:54]
Jeanine Turner
Well, if you want to come back five times, we'd love to have you come back.
- [58:57]
Dan Attias
Sign me up.
- [58:58]
Jeanine Turner
Awesome. All right, so now we're going to wrap the show, and we'll see you next week. And for now, we're signing off with o' Connell and Flowers Fleischman.
- [59:06]
Rob Morrow
It should be Fleischman o'.
- [59:07]
Jeanine Turner
Connell.
- [59:07]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah.
- [59:08]
Jeanine Turner
In your dreams, Fleischman.
- [59:16]
Dan Attias
Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen
- [59:19]
Jeanine Turner
Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson
- [59:22]
Dan Attias
and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.