S4E15: "Learning Curve" with Janine Turner, Cynthia Geary, and Jo Anderson

Summary

Northern Disclosure – S4E15: "Learning Curve" (July 28, 2026)
Guests: Janine Turner, Cynthia Geary, Jo Anderson
Host: Evergreen Podcasts
Summary by Podcast AI

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Northern Disclosure, Janine Turner (Maggie O’Connell) and Cynthia Geary (Shelley Tambo) reunite for a “girls’ night” to discuss the classic Northern Exposure Season 4 episode “Learning Curve.” Special guest Jo Anderson joins them to talk about her role as Jane (the substitute teacher). The trio explore the episode’s main storylines and reflect warmly on behind-the-scenes memories, acting choices, and the show’s ongoing relevance. The group later pivots to reminisce about “Sicily,” the iconic earlier episode where Anderson portrayed Rosalyn. The conversation is rich with insights into character growth, the progressive themes of the show, memorable moments, and the importance of humility and difference in community.

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Key Topics & Moments

1. Opening & Set-Up

[00:44–02:28]

• Janine introduces the episode and guest Cynthia Geary, highlighting the absence of Rob Morrow.
• A quick rundown of “Learning Curve” plot: Marilyn travels to Seattle as Joel worries, Holling tries for his high school diploma, and Jo Anderson guest stars as Jane (also noting her previous role of Roslyn in “Sicily”).
• Janine’s excitement about this “girls’ night” edition and having Jo on the show.

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2. Reflections on “Learning Curve” – Themes, Music, and Guest Direction

[02:28–06:21]

• Cynthia calls this a “quintessential Northern Exposure episode,” noting how every character faces their assumptions and has to grow.

  “Joel learned something about himself, about his assumptions, and you, Maggie, learned something about her assumptions, and Holling has to learn something new.” — Cynthia [02:28]

• Cynthia highlights the show’s use of music, especially the recurring song (Ojibwe Square Dance by Georgia Wetland Larson) during Marilyn's Seattle scenes.
• Janine acknowledges director Michael Vittis, who recently passed away. She and Cynthia reminisce about the changes in the show’s crew and direction between seasons, emphasizing how the cast had to continually adapt.

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3. The Actor’s Memory and Process

[06:21–08:28]

• Both Janine and Cynthia discuss not remembering most episodes until re-watching them, illustrating the focus and “letting go” required in acting, especially for a long series.
• Janine recalls remembering only the most impactful lines or scenes:

  “You're the most vile, odious, pernicious waste of corpuscles I've ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on.” — Janine [07:37]

• Cynthia suggests lines and moments have to be let go quickly in order to move forward as an actor.

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4. Relevance of Storylines: Difference & Assumptions

[08:28–11:10]

• The hosts praise the timelessness of the episode’s central message: respecting differences and challenging assumptions, especially when people appear similar on the surface.

  “Today it’s like we all think we have to have the same point of view, and if you don’t, then you’re just wrong. And that’s very wrong.” — Janine [08:37]

• Janine ties it to her personal experience with her father, an Air Force pilot, and how it informed her portrayal of Maggie.
• Discussion of Holling’s storyline—preparing for his equivalency test and the show’s mention of civics, prompting nostalgia for more robust education in government basics.

  “They don’t even teach that anymore.” — Janine [10:41]

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5. Notable Moments & Background Acting

[11:11–12:31]

• Cynthia highlights the seamlessness of the writing and praises background performances—mentioning a little girl’s captivating, reaction-filled presence in the classroom scene.

  “Just every little detail. The casting directors... cast just the extras in this shot. This young girl had no lines, but her face and her reactions… It’s wonderful.” — Cynthia [11:30]

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6. Welcoming Jo Anderson: Process, Costume, and Context

[13:43–19:03]

• Jo Anderson shares her gratitude for being on the show and podcast. She’s most struck by the show’s commitment to confronting assumptions, and the special resonance of playing a pilot—a rare thing for women on TV at the time.
• Jo reflects on costuming as a revealing detail:

  “They gave me these darling blue kid gloves... it was a time when things were more conservative... I just remember when I got those gloves, I was like, ‘Whoa, they're doing something different here.’” — Jo [19:03]

• She notes the rarity (for that era) of writing for two strong, nonconforming women interacting onscreen.

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7. Acting Challenges: ADR, Looping, & Guest Experiences

[22:28–25:21]

• The group discusses technical aspects of filming, especially the extensive “looping” (ADR) due to on-location sound issues and network TV time constraints.
• Jo shares the challenge (and privilege) of stepping into an established set as a guest, and the importance of being welcomed by the cast:

  “It is a very unusual situation... like being the new kid at the school for a day and having to, you know, be a success at the end of the day.” — Jo [29:39]

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8. Character Depth & Performances

[25:52–33:21]

• Cynthia discusses working with John Cullum (Holling) and their idealistic yet grounded relationship.
• Jo and Janine delve deeper into the process of building a believable guest character quickly and the comfort that comes from great writing.
• They praise each other’s performances for being present, understated, and generous.

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9. The Plane Scene and Apology

[33:23–36:08]

• Janine revisits the pivotal Maggie-Jane confrontation at the plane, highlighting how the argument about feminism and individuality resolves in honest apology and growth:

  “I also was very touched by the apology... You’re right. And we need to do that more in our society...” — Janine [34:29]

• Cynthia notes how such scenes model humility and real learning.

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10. Teaching, Writing, and Passing It On

[36:08–38:50]

• Cynthia describes encouraging her talented daughter, now a TV writer, echoing parallels between their respective career starts.
• The hosts reflect on their luck at landing such a strong, supportive ensemble and writing.

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11. Praise for Elaine Miles & Marilyn’s Storyline

[38:50–42:05]

• Both Janine and Cynthia effusively praise Elaine Miles (Marilyn):

  “Her reactions in this episode, just, oh my God... What you say with your. Without saying anything, just phenomenal.” — Cynthia [38:50]

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12. Why Jane Didn’t Return, and What If...

[42:45–44:09]

• They speculate why Jo’s character wasn’t reprised, likely a change in showrunner (David Chase taking over after season 4), and how Jane might have played a recurring friend for Maggie in another reality.

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13. Portraying "Sicily" and Groundbreaking LGBTQ Representation

[49:11–56:14]

• The conversation turns to “Sicily,” where Jo Anderson played Rosalyn, one half of a lesbian couple who founded the town.
• Jo recalls the courage and vision behind making their love story central, when same-gender relationships were almost never shown on TV:

  “...it was such a subtle...the whole episode was so subtle...But it was. And I feel really privileged to be a part of that moment.” — Jo [56:14]

• They praise Yvonne Suhor, who played Cicely, and share sorrow at her recent passing.

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14. The Power of Enlightenment and Unexpected Teachers

[57:51–59:05]

• Janine ties up the larger moral: that enlightenment can “come from the most unusual places,” reflecting on how the show challenged both characters and viewers to learn from unexpected sources.
• The group cherishes the memory of key supporting actors like Darren Burrows (Ed) for nuanced, understated performances.

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15. The Legacy of “Northern Exposure” & Closing Thoughts

[61:11–63:08]

• Janine, Cynthia, and Jo reflect on how Northern Exposure was genuinely original and continues to inspire new series, even as it streams for a new generation.
• Jo expresses her gratitude for the series and the opportunity to revisit these stories.

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Notable Quotes

• “Quintessential Northern Exposure episode...the characters grow and they’re always confronted with something, some belief, or something they took for granted.” — Cynthia [02:28]
• “Two women on that plane, two pilots...I thought, wow, that’s something you’d see today and not think twice about. But my God, 35 years ago, I wasn’t seeing that.” — Jo [19:03]
• “It’s Maggie. I mean, the fact that you were able to take that in and learn and, and say I was wrong and apologize, I mean, I think that’s something we need more today in our lives and in real life.” — Cynthia [34:34]
• “Her reactions...just phenomenal...what you say with your—without saying anything. Just incredible.” — Cynthia (about Elaine Miles) [38:50]
• “A series so original, and it was from such an original time. There’s only one Northern Exposure.” — Jo [61:59]

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Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 00:44 | Janine introduces episode and guest hosts | | 02:28 | Episode’s themes of confronting assumptions | | 04:20 | Acknowledging episode writer/director and changes | | 06:21 | The actors’ memory and “letting go” of lines | | 08:28 | Relevance of the storylines for today’s world | | 11:30 | The art of background acting—classroom scene | | 13:43 | Welcoming Jo Anderson | | 19:03 | Jo on costuming & gender representation | | 22:28 | Location sound & looping (ADR) anecdotes | | 25:52 | Cynthia on working with John Cullum (Holling) | | 29:39 | The challenge of being a guest star | | 33:23 | The plane scene: differences and apologies | | 38:50 | Elaine Miles and Marilyn’s quietly powerful story | | 42:45 | Why Jane didn’t become a recurring character | | 49:11 | “Sicily”—groundbreaking LGBTQ representation | | 56:14 | Courageous, subtle storytelling in “Sicily” | | 57:51 | Enlightenment from unexpected sources | | 61:11 | The series’ legacy and streaming today |

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Takeaways & Final Notes

• Northern Exposure endures as an example of TV at its most thoughtful and progressive—challenging societal norms, celebrating difference, and crafting complex, multi-layered characters.
• The cast’s chemistry and mutual respect contributed to its legendary status, as did its willingness to give space to guest performers and quiet moments.
• “Learning Curve” stands out for its deft interweaving of character arcs, emotional confrontations, and humor—all delivered with the series’ trademark warmth.
• The “Sicily” episode is recognized for its groundbreaking depiction of an LGBT love story, handled with empathy and subtlety well ahead of its time.
• The podcast guests continually circle back to gratitude for the opportunity to be involved in such a formative show, one that continues to resonate with new and old fans alike.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. You may know me as the host of Reply All. But I'm done with that. I'm doing something else now. I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed. On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems and I try to solve them. Some massive and life altering and some so miniscule it'll boggle your mind. No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you. That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts [e-mail]

[B]

foreign.

[C]

Hi, everyone. Welcome to Northern Disclosure, where we walk through every episode of Northern Exposure. And today we have a very, very special show for you. The show after our phenomenal live show last week. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special GU co host. I'm so excited. I've wanted to do this for a while. And it's Cynthia Gary. Welcome back, Cynthia Gary.

[B]

Hi.

[D]

Thanks for having me back.

[C]

Oh, yeah, this is fun. We're having girls night.

[D]

Yeah, it has been fun. Janine.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Rob's unavailable, so I'm like, how about Cynthia? This will be so much fun. So we're having girls night, right?

[B]

Like rockin.

[C]

We're rockin.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, so today's episode is season four, episode 15. It's entitled learning Curve and the bio, the bio of it, so to speak. The synopsis is when Marilyn Elaine Miles decides to take a trip to Seattle. An apprehensive Joel Rob Morrow tries to make all the arrangements. Holling John Cullum struggles to get his high school diploma. So that's kind of the. I have a little bit to do with our special guest today. And I think I'm gonna go ahead and tell you our special guest today sometime we wait. But our special guest today is Jo Anderson, who portrays the, the teacher in this episode. But she also, ladies and gentlemen, you all know those focused fans who are listening. She portrayed Roslyn in the iconic episode Sicily. So this is going to be a great episode. We're thrilled to have her with us today. So, Cynthia, what did you think about this episode?

[D]

I thought this was like a classic, quintessential Northern Exposure episode. And what I mean by that is it's, it's, it's the. One of the things that I love about this show is that you see the characters grow and they're always confronted with something, some belief or some, something that they took for granted and they'll, and they, they have to rethink it and think about it. Again, and they're, you know, they're just assumptions about themselves, about other people. And this is one of those classic shows where, you know, Joel learned something about himself about his assumptions, and you, Maggie, learned something about her assumptions, and Holling has to learn something new. And I thought it was really fun. I also love the music in this show. It really. There was a song, and I actually looked up the artist, Native American artist, the song that was playing all throughout Marilyn's travels in Seattle. And I just loved the song, and I thought it was so great so that I had to look her up. And the artist's name is Georgia Wetland Larson. And the song was Ojibwe Square Dance. And I thought that it was just great. So if you happen to catch the show again and you're curious about the artist, that's her. And it was fabulous.

[C]

I did notice that music. I agree with you. It popped out. It just sort of popped out of the entire show. And I will say that it was written by Jeff Fleming and I think as Jess. Written by. As Jeffrey Fleming. Oh, Jeff Fleming. But Jeffrey Fleming. And the director was Michael Vittis. He directed this one. And I think. And then he came on. He was there as our. Our kind of producer on set producer, I know, at the beginning of season four. So I guess this may have been the first one. He actually directed 15 episodes into season four. So he was with us season four, five and six, and we just found out he passed away.

[D]

Yeah, Michael was wonderful.

[C]

Yeah, he was. And he was 90 years old. And that's a good, long life. It never feels long enough, though, does it? So we. We will say thank you to Michael Vittis and we respect you and thank you for being our companion and our guide on the set and for directing this wonderful episode as well for two years, which was a big transition for us because after season four, season five and six, we no longer had Joshua and John. We did for season four, but five and six, we did not. So he had to bridge the gap.

[D]

Yeah, it was a big change.

[C]

Yeah, it was a big change. It was a big change. It was a big change. A lot of changes.

[D]

Well, we had David Chase come on then as this showrunner. Creator. And showrunner, not creator.

[C]

Well, yeah, yeah. So he was there. David Chase, 5 and 6. And we had a new cinematographer. We lost our entire cinematographer team. But we'll talk about today's episode, which is Learning Curve. And do you remember? I mean, I know we watch it. We go, oh, yeah, okay. Right. But did you remember the intricacies of the scenes. Wow. I do remember one thing, which we'll talk about when we get Joe on. I remember one thing. But do you, like, do you actually remember? Cause, I mean, it was. Or do you just see it and then your memory is triggered?

[D]

No, I have to admit, I don't. I mean, it's. It's. I think when you're in it, you're so focused on the scene and doing the work and doing that. I certainly don't remember the big picture and the whole. The way that the show comes together. It's really been just. Just such a treat to watch it now, 30 years later and go, wow, that was a. You know, that was so well written. Written and to notice the music and it is a great show and. And all of those things. But, no, I don't. I mean, it's. I think when you're in the middle of it and you're doing it and it's. You know, you're. You're literally just, okay, can I. Can I make this scene work? And what do I need for this scene? At least that was me. So, no, it's gone. And as an actor, I think you let those lines go and everything go, because you can't hold it all in your head.

[C]

Yeah. I usually, like, if I have a. You know the episode recently where I had that big, huge speech about Catherine the Great and the horses, and it was apocryphal and whatnot. That was a big speech for me. And I remember. I would accept. You're the most vile, odious, pernicious waste of corporals I've ever had the misfortune lays my. Lay my eyes on. I remember that one.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

That was like, for the first season. I've always remembered that line because it was so great. You're the most vile, odious, pernicious waste of corpuscles I've ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on. That was to Fleischmann, of course, from Maggie to Fleischman. And I remember that. And I remembered that scene about Catherine the Great. But to echo what you're saying, the minute I would. I would memorize those lines, and we. We'd be intensive. We'd be in it. But then if you asked me to say that line when I got in the car to drive home, I wouldn't remember it.

[D]

Right. Well, I. I think we have to let go of that stuff because you just can't hold. Or at least I haven't figured out how to hold all of that in my head. And Go on with my day. But I mean, you have a great speech in this episode too, with Jo. I mean, you know, the whole speech you gave, which we'll, I'm sure, discuss with her, but I love it.

[C]

Yeah. And once again, that confrontation with Jo's character is. Fits right into today.

[D]

It's amazing. It's so relevant.

[C]

Yeah. Always. Always. It's like, okay, today we all think we have to have the same point of view. And if you don't have the exact same point of.

[D]

Of me that.

[C]

Than I do, then you're just wrong. And that's, to me, very wrong. We all come from different cultures. We've tried. We. We've migrated and immigrated here from all over the world, and some that were originally here as the indigenous people. It's like we're all going to think completely differently. So why do we insist that everybody thinks the same? So I. I really loved that whole storyline with Joe and Maggie. Well, it wasn't Joe. What was the name of her character?

[D]

Jane.

[C]

Jane, right. So Jane and Maggie had that. But I thought it was revealing and current.

[D]

Yeah. I just love that this show always challenges our assumptions if you're a female pilot. So I assume that we're the same and that Maggie does that you believe the same things, and when you haven't, you don't know her.

[C]

My dad used to say to me, who was a pilot, right. He was a West Point graduate, but back then it was Army Air Force to choose, and he chose Air Force. And he always used to say me, oh, no, you know, you can't be a pilot. I'm like, why not? Because you're too emotional. You know what I mean? You're just too emotional. And he kind of thought women were too emotional to be pilots. I mean, he was a pilot. He was a test pilot for, you know, like Sam Shepard in the Right stuff from the 1950s in West Point, you know, from 53 to 57, which was still square meals and everything. So it's like, oh, women, you know, women being pilots are too emotional. But I learned from that comment to betray Maggie, you know, less emotional because I am very emotional. But Maggie was not at times. She could be, or she kept it brewing. But your storyline with Holling, which, you know, I have a foundation and we work with a lot of kids about history. And I found it really intriguing that in that test where you're helping prep him for the equivalency test for high school, that you're actually talking about the government, you know, how the government works. And the checks and balances and this and that. I don't even think they do that anymore. They don't even teach that anymore. What were your thoughts about that?

[D]

I knew that you would like that, knowing, you know, your involvement. And it was great. And I assume they still teach that in school about how our government works, but these days I'm not sure if it does work that way anymore.

[C]

Well, they might teach it loosely, but I never thought it would be on an equivalency test.

[D]

Yes. Right.

[C]

Would you. Anything else you want to say very quickly about your storyline? And it was so sweet. And he passed. I didn't really remember the whole episode. I'm like, oh, good, he passed. Oh, good. And then when he stood up to tell that whole story about, you know, getting in a fight with somebody and that little girl. Did you notice that little girl against the wall who kept just going, her

[D]

reactions that were so great. That's the other thing this show. I mean, just every little detail. The casting directors. And this was probably the local casting director, Patty Callas, who cast just the extras in this shot. This young girl had no lines, but her face and her reactions. When Hauling is telling this story and reading his essay about it's a bloody. And how he has this. They sent this guy to jail and he's come back and all this and he's going to beat him up. And it's just. It's wonderful. I mean, it's a testament to the writing because the writing is so good that you could just react honestly and. Which was. I think everybody in the show found it true from. From an extra who walks through to. To you and I. Yeah, the little

[C]

boy with the glasses. But that little girl upstaged him every time because she just had those expressions which I thought were really fun. Well, let's bring Joe in. Ladies and gentlemen. I want to introduce our next guest, and her name is Anderson. And she portrayed not only this character, Jane, which was after she portrayed the iconic Rosalind in our Sicily episode, which won all kinds of awards at the. At the very end of season three. And she's just a phenomenal human being. Wonderful actress, a writer, Many, many, many talents. And you may remember her from Beauty and the Beast with Ron Perlman in the day. And she played Julianne Mercer in jfk, which I think is really co. JFK is still, you know, Oliver Stone. I would love to talk to you about working with Oliver Stone, but she has a huge legacy of credits. But we. I just think it's awesome, too, that our producers loved her enough to have her play Rosalind and then have her play Jane as well. And as I'm watching this episode, I thought, were they prepping her to take over my role? Because I'm like, I think they were prepping her to take over my role because we have similar work. We work similar and everything, but. Ladies and gentlemen, Jo Anderson. Joe, welcome to the show.

[E]

Thank you so much. Jeanine. Hi, Cynthia. I am so, so touched and so privileged to be able to be on this podcast. And I was unspeakably, immeasurably honored to be on your show. And to go back twice was just a dream come true. It was really special. And you guys still, even just what you're doing now is special. So thanks for having me.

[D]

You look the same.

[C]

Yeah, she does. You look great.

[D]

You look fabulous.

[E]

It's Zoom.

[B]

It's.

[E]

You know, I've got the phone, lighting and everything. You know, the zoom. This Zoom world or the Internet world. You know, you can light things. So thank you. I should just say thank you. But you all look great. You know, we all look great on Zoom.

[C]

I have on my. I have my special light, which I wish I could just attach to my body and just have on myself all the time. And then I have on the blur. Yeah. It's not really totally real, but nevertheless, it is what it is. But you do look awesome. And thanks for joining us today. I don't know. I don't know whether to talk about this episode first and then. Cicely, why don't we talk about this episode first and then Cicely?

[E]

Yeah. Can I first say two things? One is, Cynthia, I was so impressed, actually, with the way that you distilled not only the series, but also this episode and breaking it down into that every week, you know, people were overcoming their assumptions, and they were always confronted with something to kind of redefine or see themselves differently. And I thought, oh, my God. That's kind of my humble knowledge. I wasn't there every day of shooting for six seasons, but that seemed to be exactly the distillation of the series and certainly the distillation of the episode. So that was just really beautiful to listen to. And thank you. You're welcome. And then I was so touched and really also impressed that your dad's a pilot. And then it sort of shed light on the episode and kind of how you. You were coming into that episode personally and as a character as well. But I had no idea that your dad was a pilot and what a legacy to come from and then be able to portray on television as beautifully as you did.

[C]

Well, it was really fun for my dad. It was really fun for him because he was an Air Force pilot. And then he flew for Braniff International for 25 years. And then after that, he flew private, and after that, he flew planes to Alaska, to the North Slope. So in his late 60s, early 70s. So he was subliminally, I think, very much a part. Even in the audition, probably. I think it was just, you know, kind of in my heritage. It was probably a little bit there. But, Cynthia, I do agree with what you're saying. Every episode, there seemed to be a stair step of enlightenment. What do you think, Cynthia, as you kind of mentioned, you want to build on that.

[D]

I mean, I just think that that's what we see in the show. It's throughout. I mean, over and over again in every episode. And I loved that this one really, you know, I mean, even the title, Learning Curve. I mean, it's all about growth. But I love that the characters, other. The other characters and guests and everything will spur them, but they find it themselves. I mean, you know, you as you and Rob, and you have to. You eventually find it yourself. And I think that's a really beautiful part of the show. And I love that little subtle. It clicks something in. It clicks with you.

[C]

Yeah. Well, there's a humility, I think, to the actors and a willingness to learn, and that's why they're so lovable, because we've all run across people who just can't. They just can't in real life.

[D]

That is hard. I mean, it's hard to hear and hard to take in. Oh, maybe I was wrong about that. So I think that they are. They're beautiful characters. I mean, even with all his quirks and Rob's character, Joel, I mean, it's every. I just loved in this episode his paternal instinct to Marilyn and the way he loves her and takes care of her and is worried about her. It's really sweet.

[C]

Yeah. And she says, I figured you would, like, I figured you'd be here. Jo, do you remember anything specifically about this episode or when you watched it? Did it just trigger? Because I'm like, oh, wow. I didn't even remember I had all those scenes with you.

[E]

I didn't either. First off, we had such a wonderful conversation the night before. Then when we started to have a fight, it kind of upset me a little bit. Like when I was watching the episode and we were fighting, I'm like, oh, we could. We could, like, talk about that a Little bit nicer. I mean, but so, no, I didn't remember all the scenes. And I had not seen this since the first time I saw it. And the other episode, you know, Sicily, I think I have seen it at least once since then, so that's a little closer in my memory. But oddly enough, when I saw those blue kid gloves that they gave me to wear, it was like it all kind of came back.

[B]

And.

[E]

And it came back and I think for a lot of reasons. One is it was so stunning at the time. And I've been thinking a lot about this in terms of not only this episode, but also Sicily, who dealt with the same gender relationship, which in 19 was it 91, 92. This did not happen on network television. And so. So I've been thinking a lot about context. And. And even when I saw those blue, like, they were like darling blue kid gloves that they put on this otherwise, you know, bomber kind of outfit, even in wardrobe, it was a time when things were more conservative. At least that was my experience whenever I was working. There was more of a cookie cutter kind of broadcast network television kind of wardrobe going on. And I know it may be a tiny little thing and nobody else noticed it. I just remember when I got those gloves, I was like, whoa, this is a whole nother. They're doing something different here. Even though I already knew you guys were. Even if I can say the behind the scenes thing, I was a very vegetarian all the way back in the day. And eating on sets was really a challenge. Like, really a challenge. I had to make sure I wouldn't lose weight during if it was a long shoot because I had to make sure I had my own food because, you know, there was nothing. They'd steam broccoli or something. And I remember the guys that you had for catering and. And even craft service, but especially the caterers. I remember they were making garlic bread with, like, fret. They're making homemade bread with garlic. Do I have this correct in my memory? They were doing, like, it was one of the first sets I was on where I was fed properly during the day. And so there was just a lot of smaller details that kind of came back when I was watching the episode. And of course, in the scenes, I forgot we were talking about sensory work. And sometimes for myself, the beauty of shooting outdoors is such a treat because it takes care of so much. You know, we're already in the element that we're in. We don't have to kind of dream anything up. And I remember that scene very well. The Scene where the two of us on the plane talking. And again, when I saw that, keeping in mind the context of the time that it was done in. And I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but it was very rare to see two women dressed like that and two women in a scene together. Almost all scenes were like, with guys or about the guys, which sounds archaic now, but that was pretty much my experience. There's exceptions to this, but when I saw these two women on that plane, two pilots on this plane, two very different looking women coloring, everything about who we are looked visually so different. I thought, wow, that's something you would just see today and not even think twice about. But my God, you know, 35 years ago, I wasn't seeing that very often. I wasn't seeing that at all. And I did experience this as well with some other extraordinary executive producers and some other great sets that I was on. But it was still rare to be a woman on a set and feel comfortable, respected and safe. And that was also something that kind of came back as I was watching. As I was watching the episode.

[C]

I wondered when I was watching that because I could hear a lot of background noise in the scene where we're both by the plane. And I love that we're both by the plane and two female pilots, but we have differing points of view. I think that was really cool.

[E]

That was a point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But I remember I could hear all that background noise, background noise. And I thought, how much of this did we have to loop? You know, because they were really big on looping on the show. I don't know if you remember anything, but one thing I remember, and I don't know if it was this episode or not, I remember showing up one time with the plane and they had picked a location right by the freeway and by the four. Cynthia will relate to this by four seasons in we knew how much they looped us, you know, made us redo the words. And so you become. You can't relax into a scene because you go, oh my gosh, they're going to make me loop it. And oh, I hear this. And oh my gosh, they're going to make me loop the whole thing. And I remember one day I ride them. Like, why did you, you know, why did you pick a location that's right by the freeway? But I could hear. And I don't know if that was our scene or not, but you could hear a little bit of. Because I'm sure I had many scene by the plane, but I went do you remember looping on this scene at all?

[E]

I. I don't remember on this scene, but I did. I won't point it out, but I did see a really bad loop that I did in this episode. I was like, oh, oh, tell us.

[C]

Go ahead and tell us.

[E]

It's so obvious. I probably would. It's a. It's a cutaway. Do. Do I really have to point it out? It's so bad.

[C]

No. No, you don't. Well, I'm with you. We'll leave it in the glory of it as it is.

[B]

It was just.

[E]

Fortunately, it was one word. So there you go. If anybody, like, has nothing better to do in their life and they want to go look for that. That bad loop, you're welcome. It's just one word to cut away from.

[D]

Just to interject. One of the reasons we had to do so much ADR and looping two was because we always shot two or three minutes extra. I mean, our scripts were a little long so that our producers and executive producers and writers when it. When they sent the film back to LA so that they could edit it. And typically scenes would get cut off at the end and to make it all fit in, because, again, it was network TV and it had to fit so that there was a commercial break and you had to fit in this 50 minutes. So we always knew that some scenes were going to get cut, little pieces were going to get cut here and there. And that's another reason. It wasn't just that, you know, that we. I mean, we were. We were shooting on next to freeways and planes would fly over and et cetera. But it was also. Even the stuff that we did in the studio. And it would get edited and cut, and we'd have to add one little word like that to make it fit in the timeframe for television.

[C]

That's a good point. That's a good point. Because we went into it always thinking, what scene is gonna be cut today out of this episode?

[D]

That's my excuse for not, remember, bring anything. Because back in the day, that's what I just watched the show to see. What did they cut? Did they cut my scenes?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, when we watched them the day, it was a whole nother deal because we were so young and we were so passionate and we were thinking about ourselves and the scene and whatnot. Well, Cynthia, what are your thoughts about the whole. About your scenes with Pauling and Joe? You had some scenes. Didn't you have some scenes at the bar with. Y' all had scenes together?

[E]

Well, he's such a pro. And he is a gentleman.

[B]

He is.

[D]

He's. He's so lovely. I mean, it's so. Again, I feel like, so lucky and fortunate that my first series out of the gate and one of my first acting jobs was working with John Column every day. And, I mean, just. It was amazing. What an amazing gift. And this episode just kind of highlights that in the fact that I love Holling and Shelley's relationship because it's idealistic in. They cheer each other on, they support each other. It's great. And you. Hopefully the audience believes it. I mean, Shelley loves Holling and thinks he is the bomb and vice versa. And I just love the fact that anything he does, she's behind him 100%. But she's not going to let him quit. I mean, she wants him to be the best she can.

[E]

He can be.

[D]

And I love this scene where I come into his teacher conference like his mother. And I mean, it's just. It's typical. Northern Exposure turned everything on its head. I mean, I end up being the parent and tutoring him for his equivalency exam and, you know, come into his teacher conference to see how he's doing and check on him. And, you know, it was just fun.

[C]

And, Jo, your work in the episode, since we studied in similar ways, it's hard. We had been doing our characters for four years, basically, right, three years. We're in our fourth season and we were in the groove and we kind of had it. And it's so hard as a guest star to come in and have to find that character immediately from showing up at 6am and boom, here's your first scene, and it might be the last scene that's first and all this. And I was captivated by the way you were in the scene. So you obviously made certain choices, personal choices that you brought to the actual character, but you were just rock solid and intriguing and I wanted to watch. But beautiful work. To walk into an episode and boom. And the way you delivered that in such a profound way.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[E]

And it is daunting to be, I guess, stars kind of experience that, because you do have to do exactly what you said. But again, you guys, I remember the first time I met you, Jenny, and you came in, I think, did you just fly in from somewhere? Because I know when we talked you said you were flying out somewhere, but I think maybe tell me if my memory is right. I was in a makeup chair and you come swooping in, and I think you had just flown in or you were up all night. And I just looked at you, and you were across the trail, and I was like, you have the most incredible skin. I said, if I was, like, on a plane or up, I forget what the circumstances were. I'm like, you just have the most incredible skin. And you just kind of were so warm and kind to me. And all of you guys were. You know, it is a very unusual situation. It is like being the new kid at the school for a day and having to, you know, be a success at the end of the day. And that's so there's not even any time. Right. So thanks for saying that. But you guys just made it easy, and I'm sure you made it easy for everyone who visited and was fortunate enough to be on your show. I'm so sorry, what was the question?

[C]

Well, there wasn't probably a specific question, but, I mean, I think that the choices that you made for all the actors that are listening, you know, when you walk into, you had to bring a history. You had to bring a full, complete character. And you were in that room, which you and I both know was some strange place that you were taken in a van to. It's almost like, you know, you're. It's almost like they pick you up, they take you to some strange location, you walk into some room, and then they say, okay, we're going to start this scene in about 15 minutes. And you have. You have to immediately make it. I felt like that home, I mean, that schoolroom was your schoolroom. But I know to do that as an actor, because you probably just had your vegetarian burrito and into hair and makeup, and you arrive someplace you'd never seen before, and you're walking in and you have to make it so real. And so I was intrigued with the choices that you made and how you, as an actor got yourself to just be rooted.

[E]

I had the advantage of having been there before. I wasn't coming in cold. And it makes you feel. If you get asked back again, then there's that element of, well, I guess I did okay the first time. You know, you don't feel. I didn't feel as naked as one can when you first hit a set cold like that, so. And I also, you know, I can't remember the process, but I do remember my thoughts about going back a second time. And I kind of just. I kind of went back in. As I kind of in my body, I kind of felt like Rosalind, you know, a few generations reincarnated.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Kind kinda like. I just kind of had that in my imagination, when I was not that much younger than when we shot this, but I was teaching at risk kids and teaching theater and teaching other subjects and stuff like that. So I've been. I was comfortable enough in the classroom, just comfortable enough to be in a classroom and just listen to, which I think I might not have been aware of as that part of the process if I hadn't actually experienced that personally. So I guess I was. I was just. Like I said, I can't remember exactly my process, but. And then whenever we were outside, it just sort of fed everything. Because being on that plane, I mean, I could just feel that. And then. I mean, it goes without saying, but it needs to be said. Janine. I mean, the scenes that we had, you just. You just show up and are so centered and so generous and, you know, you can't. Everybody knows, and it's cliche to say it, but you can't play a scene by yourself, you know, then it's hard when you're doing all the work and there's not anybody in that scene with you. So all those scenes were just, you know, I've been in situations where, you know, the other actors competing with you. And you can be subtle or not so subtle, and, you know, no one can do good work in that situation. It's really hard to. So the writing is just so subtle, and so it's like singing a perfect song. You don't have to push anything. You know, you can just let that moment speak for itself because, you know, the next moment is properly written and the next moment is properly written. So it kind of just kind of goes. So it just makes it more comfortable to be able to show up and do what you do without trying to bolster the sales because, you know, the sales are already bolstered perfectly, you know, Beautiful.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The scene at the plane between the two of us where we'd already had the scene in Ruthanne's store where you say, oh, a woman. I wouldn't trust a woman to do that. And I loved the differing points of view on that. I mean, and then it was. And I loved your character stance. Like, hey, you know what? You can't. You can't pigeonhole me. I can think how I want to think. And you didn't give on your character didn't give on it either. It's like, this is just what I believe in. I'm entitled. And why can't we be that more. More that way in our society today, where people just can believe the way they want to Believe. And that's okay. They want to believe that way within reason, of course. But, but there, that scene at the plane, I remember there was your, your pressing, and I'm sitting there, and there's that look where I look down. You know, you can see that Maggie's not very happy, you know, that you're telling her what to do, and she's still carrying a grudge, and you kind of knew that that was coming. But I also was very touched by the apology. I don't know what you think, Cynthia. I thought that apology was very touching. You know, she's able to say, you know what? You're right. And we need to do that more in our society, too. You're right. And you said, apology accepted. And we ended on a good note. I'm like, oh, that's so great. What did you think about all. CYNTHIA?

[D]

Well, again, it was, you know, I feel like a broken record, but it's, it's Maggie, I mean, the fact that you were able to take that in and learn and, and say I was wrong and apologize, I mean, I think it. That's, that's something, you know. Yeah, we need it more today in our lives and in real life. But I just, I think that it was really lovely. I was thinking about that scene at the playing where you guys and I just. Jo's line where she says, I have a sister and you're not her.

[B]

And

[D]

your delivery was just fabulous because it was so, I mean, you didn't, you know, it was tough, but it was just, like Judy keeps saying, grounded and very understated. And it was really great. I mean, you can. I believed that Maggie heard her. And after that speech, I mean, it was the way you delivered that last line, it made the. Your turnaround, Janine and Maggie believable that, you know, she went back and thought about it. And I think that, you know, I don't know if you were directed to play it that way, but it was a lovely choice.

[E]

I appreciate that. And do you. The way I really enjoy how you think. CYNTHIA do you. Are you. And we don't have to go there if you don't want to, but are you writing and directing because you have this, you have a, you have a, you have a, you know, the wider bird's eye. It comes easily to you. It seems to come foremost to you. So I'm just curious if that's something you're doing these days.

[D]

I'm not writing and directing. My daughter is a writer, and so I am a. I am an encourager. Of great writing, but she writes for television. And she. Right went to film school. And I've tried and decided that it wasn't worth public consumption, and so I would just not do it. But I enjoy great writing.

[C]

Her daughters had the same meteoric rise that Cynthia had. Cynthia, I hear I'd been slaving for 12 years and 10,000 auditions, or whatever you want to say, hit my head, my big break. And Cynthia just. It was fresh out of college. It was like her second audition. And she books Northern Exposure. And then her daughter's the same way. Of course, her daughter just is obviously a phenomenal writer, but she just graduated, and all of a sudden everyone's vying for her stories from Netflix and everything. I thought. So when Cynthia and I were talking the other day, I said, cynthia, she's just like you. I mean, you both just come out of the gate, you know, your racehorses out of that gate.

[E]

Wow.

[D]

This isn't about her, but, but, but she is a very hard worker, and I'm very, very proud of her. And, and, you know, she deserves it. She's worked hard.

[C]

Yeah, that's really fun. Well, I know everybody wants to hear about Cicely and, and I'll just, you know, to concur with what you're saying, Jo. I think that it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And we. I'm sure I've touched on this with Rob before, but it's wonderful to work with actors like you, Cynthia, like you, Joe, like everybody in our main cast that. That bring it and challenge you and take you to the higher level. And I know we've all worked with actors who didn't do that, who, you know, didn't want to be there for the close up or just didn't want to give it to you back when you're on your close up, or they weren't really. They don't really care. They don't really have the passion. And that's incredibly disappointing when you are a dedicated actor to work with people that just aren't on the same kind of mission as you are. So on this episode, we were really blessed with that. And I know we need to move on to Cicely, but is there anything else we want to wrap up on this episode?

[D]

I have to say, I think it was one of Elaine Miles best performances. Her reactions in this episode, just, oh, my God, as an actor, what you say with your. Without saying anything, just phenomenal. She had looks to Joel when he was telling her about all of the plans he'd made for her and this and that. And the way she looks when she gets off the plane in Seattle. And you have her driver standing there with whirlwind. Her last name on the card. And she kind of looks at him and then she turns and she just keeps walking. It just. It's fabulous. I mean, she just. What an incredible actress. Her. I think it's a really great acting lesson for people to watch. Elaine Miles, what she can do with one word or no words.

[C]

So true. And I'm really glad you brought her up, because I didn't. We don't. I didn't mean to leave that whole storyline out because. Because she.

[B]

We. We.

[C]

Episode after episode. There's an episode recently where she and Fleischman have a bet and fly the staring contest. Like, who can be silent the longest? And she wins it. And he's all mad and he's throwing. And she holds her hand out like money. You know, what she could do is. With a look. It was. It was truly phenomenal. And people she talks about. She's been on the. A couple of times. And people on the grocery store lines, you know, stop her. She was iconic because that's the second time I've used that word today, or the third. But people just loved the individuality of that character and the uniqueness of her character and the way that she portrayed it and delivered it every, every time. And that was a sweet storyline. I even liked this. When Rob finally finds her, though, I wish he'd take that hat off. I never thought that that baseball hat was Fleischman. You know, that was Rob being. That was a Rob hat. That was not a Fleischman hat. So I can say that he's on the show to, like, take me on. But when he show and the elephants are behind him, you know, and they're sitting there and she said, I thought this was a great place to have lunch and to see that side of Rob. Cause you don't see Fleischman's character.

[D]

You see it.

[C]

You know, he cares about o'. Connell. He cares, but he really. That he was that upset about her. And he goes to the police officer. He's like, well, you can always check the morgue. And he finds her. He finds her. And that was a very sweet conclusion to that scene.

[D]

Well, I think the speech he gives to the police officer when he's looking for. And he first arrives to Seattle is. Is pretty special, too, because he's trying to describe her. And the guy is like, oh, well, you know, she probably met some guy in the airport lounge. And Joel is like, no, you don't understand. She's better. She's better. But the writing was just so brilliant in that he's like, she's better. She's simple.

[E]

In an elegant way.

[D]

Yeah, in an elegant way. But. And the. And the. You know, the detective is, like, simple, like developmentally impaired. And it's like, no, no, no, no. She's brilliant. And, you know, it's just, like, beautiful writing.

[E]

No, I also realized when you were. When you first brought up her storyline that, I mean, it's. It was so simple. But I just realized this, is that they had one person leave. They had Elaine leave, and they had this other person come in because the teacher was. Flew in to do, like, a teaching. And then. And then Elaine is found, and then the teacher flies out.

[D]

Yeah. All the storylines weave in and out and weave together.

[E]

Yep.

[C]

And Jeff Fleming wrote it, which is really great. We know Josh and John always tweaked it. And I was thinking, Joe, it's just amazing to me, really, watching you in this episode, that they didn't bring you back for more. And all I can think about probably was that shift because Josh left.

[B]

Oh.

[E]

Oh, interesting. Oh, wow.

[C]

And I bet. And then we had David Chase, who took the show in a whole nother direction, which is a whole nother show, or many shows with that later. But I think that I bet if John and Josh had been there, your character would have returned.

[E]

Oh, that's really nice thing to say, but they just decided to keep you.

[C]

Well, I'm not saying they would replace me. I hope not.

[E]

Nobody could replace you.

[C]

They always worry an actor's gonna leave. You know what I mean? But I'm surprised they didn't bring you back just to be a consistent figure, you know, a pal of Maggie's, you know, someone that the two pilots. Yeah, I could see that in a writer, director point of view, I guess, that that relationship could have been developed.

[E]

I saw it in the scene when we were on the plane. I was like. I had the same thought. I thought. Because I'm kind of always thinking, like, you guys, too. So I'm thinking, what a great relationship. Because. Because. Because I just never. This was not something that we were seeing at the time and really not something I've seen in a long time. So, yeah, it would have been really swell.

[C]

Couldn't you have Cynthia? I could see that. I could see that she could have been a recurring character.

[D]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah. Most mentality. But the rr. We had an earthquake at the end of season four, you know, When Josh and John left, it was just sort of an earthquake. Okay, well, and thanks for bringing up Elaine, who always does a fabulous job, and everybody adores her as we do. We. And once again, Cynthia, your work with. With wonderful. Holly. We'd love to get him on, but he's, like, 95 now.

[D]

He's 96.

[C]

96. Yeah. But that relationship was really wonderful. And. And he did it. He. He won. And I like the look on your face, Joe, when you walked into the bar and, you know, there was a happy moment for you. It's like, this is something I like.

[B]

Like.

[E]

Yeah. And by the way, you were lovely always, Cynthia, to say, you know, you just. Everybody just had such a light touch, so. Yeah, I just didn't want that to go on set.

[C]

Well, yeah. Cynthia, the way. The way you always. The way you always have that simplicity, and yet it's deep.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Because your character could have been flighty or sort of, you know, but it. Tna. Ish. Kind of like a Baywatch. Right. But you weren't smart. You were. And I love when there are always those beauty pageant analogies.

[D]

Well, you know, Miss Northwest Passage. I will. I will admit that, you know, I would get these scripts and I'd read this dialogue and go, oh, my God, how am I going to say that? How am I going to deliver this? And, you know, honestly and truthfully and not, you know, and I don't know, sometimes I look at it and go, ugh.

[B]

Ugh.

[D]

Terrible. But. But, you know, I really had. I feel, again, so fortunate to be playing opposite John Cullum because he made it so easy. If I just went, okay. You know, I'm like, I'm. I'm gonna believe this.

[B]

And.

[D]

And it was easy. And with the two of you and you. You alluded to it, Joe, just the. All the actors and the writing, and it's such a gift to come in to something like that where everything is where you love it and you think it's good. And, I mean, because I think we've all been in positions where we've had jobs where we're like, all right, this is not good. And it's just. I felt lucky every day to be there and to be working and to be working with you. Janine, with our fabulous guest stars, with you, Jo, with John, with Rob, with everybody. Elaine. You know, it was just. It was a gift. So I would look at these lines and in my little brain would go, oh, my God, for a second, and then I'd go, wait a minute.

[C]

Wait a minute.

[D]

What is it? About what's. What do I. What are they trying to say? And. And then it was fun.

[C]

The deeper message where you wanted him to succeed, you know, because you loved him. And so it didn't. Whatever he wanted, you would want that. And, well, it was. It was wonderfully portrayed. And. And we can all relate because we're spoiled on this show. You know, we're spoiled. And you go on to another show and it was just like, oh, I want off the. Because it's not at all what Northern Exposure was. And I expected it to be Northern Exposure, but there's kind of only one. Well, let's talk about Sicily in our remaining time, because I know everyone who's listening. The Focus fans, as Kurt taught us recently, Sicily was just a pivotal, epic episode. And you portrayed Rosalind, the founder of the city. And you did come in for the first time then, and that was your first episode. And it was a period piece. It was so incredibly different. I found my character really sort of boring because I was. I don't know. I didn't. She didn't have that Maggie thing going. So I always thought it'd be really cool if we played different type of characters. Like what, Cynthia? What if you had come in and played, you know, the young Maggie? That probably wouldn't have worked at all. And what if I had played the young prostitute? You know, I just think it might have been more interesting to have us. Or if they're going to have me be a young prostitute, sort of Maggie, I should make it much more interesting. I don't know. But you were amazing, Cynthia, because I think you had more. More to do in the episode than I did. But I also left early, but. And, Joe, you were amazing as Rosalind, and we worked with the wonderful Yvonne, who we have been discussing, has passed away, who played Cicely. And we want to send out Yvonne Sohor. We want to send out our prayers with her and Michael Vittis in this episode because she was a very delicate and delightful Cicely. But I know our fans want to hear about your insights about coming on the show and playing Rosalind.

[E]

Well, can I just say, speaking of Yvonne, I didn't get to know her that well because they would pull her at every moment because she was rehearsing this dance. So we didn't spend really much time together except when we were, like, in the car or, you know, when we were, like, in. In a scene, and we only had three scenes, really, actually together. So she. She was so subtle, and it came through in that dance. And When I saw it recently, I just went, oh, my God. And also a credit to. To the editors and just. Just the producers in general who allowed so much time. Like, they didn't allude to this dance. We saw this whole dance that was happening. And the time, you know, on television was like, that's a lot of beautiful, exquisite time. And I was really. I was really taken with that. And Yvonne was really. She was really special. I thought the casting was absolutely inspired, that she was Sicily.

[C]

Do you have any. What were your challenges? I remember my scene in the field with you. You're working the field, and I go in. I'm all confused about. And it was a delight working with you. An instant connection. But do you remember that scene we did in the field together?

[E]

Yes, I remember that scene. And now that I remember, because I was thinking about the scene in the field with the planes, too. I was so nervous getting onto that plane. I think I had a couple of technical things in the dialogue, but I remember being so nervous, I had to talk to myself, like, down, you know, And. And there was also something about that scene in the. In the field, I think, also, too, because there's scenes that, you know, are essential, like, to the relationship and. And that are. That are more essential to the relationship or the. Or the story line. And that. That scene in the field where I kind of lay out that, you know, there's other options and. And the whole psychology of. Of men and women and in love and whatever. I was a little daunted by that scene. But again, everybody in the crew, it was easy to decipher one's own concerns and nerves, at least for me, because there was nothing outside that I could go, well, I'm a little nervous because, you know, there was nothing. It was just such a great set to be on. So it was really that. So I remember being. Being nervous. I do remember being very concerned about whether or not I was going to be able to pull up driving this car. I mean, it was a real Ford TT or whatever that car was. You know, I come in the entrance and they gave me a couple lessons. And, like, everything, you know, they're like, ready to shoot. Okay, so the guy disappears. Like, I do remember that. And I'm like, oh, man. And again, you know, Yvonne was just so graceful at everything. So it was really nice to be in the car with her. But I guess a parent, something. I pulled it off or I made a mistake and it worked. I don't know. But that. Those. Those are pretty tricky things to. I was trying to clutch at the time in my life. So I guess that helped because it had some. Some original, what would now be a cave clutch. But that's just technical, I think. I think what I remember most of all is feeling like we're telling a story that is. That doesn't get told again. You know, I'm thinking in terms of context that these two women were lovers and partners and revolutionaries and groundbreakers and that the producers brought this on. I mean, it was still 1991 for context. Two years later, like two years later, I was in a series and it was a lead storyline. I was this doctor and I was in relationship with an African American doctor. And the scene called for a kiss, just called for a kiss, but it wasn't written in. And I asked if we could kiss and they said no, the network will not allow it. So two years after this episode was shot, a white woman and a black man were not even allowed to kiss. On what number was it? Maybe NBC. I don't want to say that with that. I think it was NBC. So when the scene happened where it's so much more emotional now, knowing Ivan's not with us, so, you know, when she gets sick and then she. She gets shot like that.

[C]

So we're back. We had some technical difficulties, but we're back and I have Jo on the phone. So we found a way to make this work because we have this fabulous opportunity to be speaking with her and we didn't want to of like loser. We want to finish the episode. So Joe, welcome back. You were talking about how once again, you know, Northern Exposure was sort of ahead of its time with what it was willing to do in the 90s.

[B]

So I know we had a technical difficulty, but I was speaking regarding the episode in the context of the early 90s when things were not dealt with on national television the way that Northern Exposure did with this particular episode, which was a same gender relationship. And when the scene, you know, we found out recently that Yvonne Suhor is no longer with us. And so talking about the scene where she's. Where she is told is a little extra emotional, I suppose. So anyway, the scene when I'm holding her in my arms, when we're on the ground in rehearsal, my inclination was to come very close to her, not to kiss her, but to be as intimate as possible in the moment and emotionally intimate. And after a rehearsal or between some takes in rehearsal, I went up to Rob Thompson, the director, and I asked him because I knew the times we were flipping in and I knew Brock had Cast television. And I said, is it okay if I lean in to kiss her? And he didn't blink an eye. He said, yes, of course. Do whatever you need to do. Which implicated. Which implied even if I wanted to. Which that moment. But it was really stunning and really, I think, brave and courageous. It was one of the many brave and courageous moments of the series. And. And of course, they kept it just as it was done. And again, there's kind of no way. It was such a subtle. The whole episode was so subtle. It didn't scream, this is a groundbreaking moment on television. But it was. And I feel really privileged to be a part of that moment.

[C]

Well, once again, I think it focused on just the element of love and let all the other noise fall to the ground, you know, that it was. Let's just focus on the humanity of the situation. And. And it was done. It wasn't in your face, you know,

[B]

it wasn't in your face. And also too. These weren't just two partners. Two women who were partners and lovers. They were radical and came in and did this. Created a town and like a puddle of mud, you know, just in the most sophisticated and elegant and visionary way. So it was just. It was. It was just so big. And also too. One of the things I loved about this episode that I have forgotten was how every time they would flash back to Joel and the gentleman who was telling the story, there was one more of you guys. And it was just so subtle, like nobody knocked on the door. You just were like showing up to have. It was kind of. You just sort of manifested at the feet of this man telling this story. And I thought that was just such a. A subtle and clever and really imaginative way to bring everybody into that episode. Your love story, Cynthia, with Holland, was especially beautiful. And I have forgotten Kafka. I've forgotten everything, you know, but it just. It was just an absolute pleasure to be able to watch it again, to see how well done it is.

[D]

One of the iconic Northern Exposure episodes. I mean, what a fabulous episode.

[C]

Well, enlightenment, I think the kind of. The moral is. And this happens to me in life all the time. Enlightenment comes from the most unusual places where you wouldn't really expect it from the person from whom you would never expect it. It's like if you believe in God, it's like God can work through all kinds of situations and all kinds of people and has. I mean, if you read the Bible, I mean, it's was just all kinds of people. I mean, God worked through, didn't matter. It didn't matter. God worked through them all. So it was an enlightenment that was shown down from a different type of situation. But that really wasn't even the focus as much as it was just the enlightenment of what, as you say, Joe, what they brought to the town, their sophistication, their culture, how they lifted everybody up, they enlightened everybody. They got Darren's character out of the mud.

[B]

Wow. And it was all through his eyes. I mean, that was what was so profound about it, was that it was coming through human dam. That young boy who went through what he went through and it was just. He's such a good actor.

[C]

He is. He didn't always get enough, did he, Cynthia? Aaron.

[D]

No, but I, I again, he's another one, you know, he could do so much with a look in one word. And, and yeah, it was, it was great.

[C]

Yeah, it really, it really, really was. And Cynthia, that, that relationship, I, you know, it's so funny because, I mean, I think about the episode. I just remember you with the broom out there, outside on the steps.

[D]

You remember more than me, Janine. I just have to. This is so off subject and everything, but I see your cat's tail in the shot. You have to pick her up so that everybody can see.

[C]

Say hi.

[D]

Say hi.

[C]

That's Bonnie Bell, Tigress, who wants to be in my lap during the show. And then she gets hair all over me. And I think I'm somewhat kind of allergic, but I just haven't dealt with it. But yes, it was a beautiful episode. And, and then, you know, I think they put it up for the Emmy and Frank Princey won, won Best Prince.

[B]

He won for cinematography, which was just, I mean this, the cinematography. And it was just beautiful. Yeah, I thought so. Beautiful. So that was, that was a. Well deserved.

[C]

Yeah, I thought he did an amazing job. And then when he left at the, at the end of this season too. And so that's why 5 and 6 were so radically different. And I remember that speaking of Holland, you know, Frank would always light John Cullum in a beautiful manner. And they're the ones that taught me. And those who've listened to all the episodes know I've talked about this. Do you want to take a picture or make a picture? It was David and David Fredericks actually who taught me that. But Frank, for every image of Frank's cinematography was like that. It was like making a picture. And not all cinematographers are like that. I mean, there's a lot of great cinematographers out there, but we were lucky to have to Be working with Frank.

[B]

Frank.

[C]

And it was a beautiful episode. And it's a shame about Yvonne, God bless her.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[E]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Really young. Pancreatic cancer, I think they said, right.

[B]

Watching that scene where she gets so really tough and just, you know.

[C]

But we've got. The amazing thing is we have her imagery on. It's embedded forever, and people can watch her. I think about what our founding fathers are. People in the Middle Ages or before you times of. I mean, all throughout time, they didn't even sometimes have a photograph left of the people. And it's beautiful that we have this legacy of her work on Northern Exposure.

[B]

Beautiful part. She was just. She was illuminated and she was illuminating in this part. You know, just her face. I mean, there's that one take of her face when she just looks up, I think, when she gets out of the car. And wow, how did they get. It was like, perfect casting.

[C]

We had a great, great conversation today. And Joe, thank you. What a treat. And, Cynthia, it's so much fun to be doing the show with you and Joe. It's just a real, real special episode podcast for us that we got to talk about two episodes with you, and that you blessed us in such a beautiful way with both the episode Sicily and Learning Curve. And you came on for such a long time today. Thank you.

[B]

You. I can't. I'm just thrilled to have been part of this. And I didn't even know that Northern Exposure was streaming. And just quickly, I was. Cynthia, I was telling Janine that the series had been in the forefront of my mind because I was watching something on Netflix. I think it was. It's not important the name of the TV series, but it was clearly similar in many regards to a lot of similarities to Move and Exposure. And I thought, God, you know, they're either inspired or they're ripping them off. I'm not sure which one. But it certainly wasn't original. And I think that a series so original, and it was from such an original time. You know, you had Seinfeld, Northern Exposure, and Wonder Years all on the airwaves at the same time. I mean, there was when people talked about the golden age of TV in the 2000s, I'm like, you know, what happened in the early 90s? And you guys were certainly a part of it. So your invitation to come onto this podcast, and for me, learning that the series is now, thankfully streaming worldwide is really, really exciting.

[C]

Thank you. Thank you for coming on today. Jo, wonderful to see you. Cynthia, it's so much fun. Co hosting with you. The next show is Love's Labor Mislaid. And this is a show I put up for the Emmy, which, looking back, I think I shouldn't have. But it's a lot of fun because Maggie forgets she had sex with Fleischman because it was too traumatic. It was great writing. It was written by Jeff Melvoy. But Cynthia, I'll see you next week as well. I look forward to it.

[D]

Me too. Thank you so much, Jo. It was such a pleasure getting to reconnect with you.

[B]

Wow. Thank you so much. Same Cynthia. Thank you.

[C]

And thank you all for watching. Don't forget to hit subscribe and share with everybody because so many people don't realize that we have this podcast. Like, oh, there's a power there as Joe's talking about. They don't realize that it's actually the show itself. Northern Exposure is streaming on Amazon prime. So go subscribe to these podcasts and whatnot so that you never miss one. And we'll see you next week. Thank you so much for joining us.

[E]

Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McConaughey for Workhouse Media.

[A]

Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. You may know me as the host of Reply all, but I'm done with that. I'm doing something else now. I've started a new podcast called Hyperfixed. On every episode of Hyperfixed, listeners write in with their problems and I try to solve them. Some massive and life altering and some so miniscule it'll be boggle your mind. No matter the problem, no matter the size, I'm here for you. That's Hyperfixed, the new podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts [e-mail].