S4E2: "Midnight Sun" with Thomas Moore

Summary

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Northern Disclosure – Season 4, Episode 2: "Midnight Sun" with Thomas Moore

Original Air Date: April 7, 2026
Host(s): Rob Morrow (Dr. Joel Fleischman), Janine Turner (Maggie O’Connell)
Special Guest: Tom Moore (Editor, Northern Exposure)
Podcast: Northern Disclosure (Evergreen Podcasts)

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Episode Overview

“Midnight Sun” revisits Season 4, Episode 2 of Northern Exposure, diving into the thematic chaos and comedic delirium caused by the Alaskan summer’s unending daylight. Hosts Rob Morrow and Janine Turner walk through the episode’s plot, behind-the-scenes stories, and the unique challenges faced on set. The episode’s special guest, Tom Moore, who edited 38 episodes of the show, joins to discuss the craft of editing, the evolution of television post-production technology, and the nuances that made Northern Exposure a classic. The conversation is lively, insider, and full of warmth—a reflection of the show itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Plot Deep Dive & Character Moments

• Episode Premise

  • The town of Cicely is at the mercy of Alaska’s never-setting summer sun, leading to manic energy, sleeplessness, and a series of comedic situations.
  • Joel (Rob Morrow) becomes hyperactive and takes over as basketball coach, while Shelley's new cheerleading outfit rouses Holling's attention. Ruthanne is courted by a traveling salesman.

• Rob on Filming Hyperactive Joel

  • “As the nighttime darkness disappears and the sun refuses to set, Joel finds himself with a boundless amount of energy and horny. He can't do much with one, but he can work off some of the other by taking on the coaching of Sicily's basketball team.” (Rob Morrow, 02:54)
  • Morrow describes grappling with the rapid-fire, dialogue-heavy script and credits the director, Michael Katleman, for guiding his character’s progression from energetic to collapse.

• Janine Recalls On-Set Wardrobe Fun

  • Reminiscing about Maggie’s hats and costume continuity (“I remember walking into the… that kind of trailer where I tried on all the hats. You were so cute in those hats. Oh, my God…” Janine, 05:48)
  • Discussion about how costume designer Katherine aimed for wardrobe realism and character ‘closets’ to enhance authenticity.

Learning Lines – Actor Methods

[06:38–10:43]

• Rob’s Approach:

  • Breaks down script into emotional beats, rehearses extensively (up to 40 times/day). Uses mnemonic visualizations and sometimes apps like Scriptation for memorizing lines.
  • “I’m not someone who learns quickly—but once I get to the set, I know stuff cold, so I can have fun and play” (Rob, 06:38).
  • “Every single day when I get ready and start to do the work, I am overwhelmed with anxiety that I will not be able to learn those lines… And by the time I’m done, I’m like, I got this.” (Rob, 10:01)

• Janine’s Approach:

  • Has to hear someone else say lines; uses alliteration and word games to memorize.
  • Relies on partner interaction to internalize cadence and emotional delivery: “I have to hear somebody else doing it with me before it clicks, because… once I start to act, all the emotions in it change the way I would deliver the line.” (Janine, 09:10)

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The Editor’s Chair: Tom Moore’s Perspective

[11:00 – 16:37]

• Tom’s Career & Evolution of Editing

  • Edited 38 Northern Exposure episodes; career spans 250+ TV episodes.
  • Describes moving from manual film splicing (“movieola”) to Beta decks and ultimately to Avid during Northern Exposure’s run.
  • “I started on film… My first year was 1979… When Northern started, there was a system called the Montage… in the second or third season, we went to the Avid, which is standard now.” (Tom, 13:03)

• On Technology’s Impact

  • Digital editing revolutionized the process, making changes and collaboration much faster:
    • “When a director finds out he can do 10 changes in the time that you can do one change, he’s going to want it.” (Tom, 14:14)

• Editing Philosophy

  • Edits from “the actor’s eyes”—seeks the emotional objectives within scenes.
  • “When a scene is problematic, you go back to the script and ask, what does this character want… Can I give a kernel or a nugget to the audience?” (Tom, 16:41)
  • Praises Rob and Janine’s preparation: “You both [are] extremely prepared and it makes an editor’s job a lot easier.” (Tom, 16:41)

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Inside the Northern Exposure Editing Room

[17:41 – 20:14]

• Landing the Job

  • Almost missed being editor on the pilot; was picked because of rare expertise with Montage systems—“I really had no business being on Northern Exposure number one… but they threw it to me…” (Tom, 17:44)
  • Recalls Josh Brand (showrunner) having sole editorial authority: “It was 100% Josh’s bailiwick…he really had an ear for the cadence of pace.” (Tom, 18:49)

• Comedy and Pacing Edits

  • Producer note: “Tom, this isn’t funny. Go back and make it funny.” Tom’s technique was quicker cuts and tighter pacing:
  • “You’re driving the editing on that episode, Rob… the fear... did I overcut this? Is it too cutty? …It wasn’t. It stayed grounded.” (Tom, 20:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Anecdotes

• On the Unique Tone and Quality

  • “This is the only show I ever worked on where a script would come out and someone would say: ‘Have you read Kaddish for Uncle Manny?’” (Tom, 28:12)
  • “I knew at the time… this was a special show.” (Tom, 29:10)

• Memorable Lines From the Episode

  • “When it’s time to conquer, everything comes your way.” (Rob/possibly Chris in the Morning, 31:21)
  • “Waitresses, nurses, and forest rangers!” (Janine/Maggie recounting men’s fantasies, 31:42)
  • Shelley: “You think cheering is about nookie, right?” (31:58)

• On John Cullum’s Innocent Lust

  • “He was lusting… He was hot for her. And it was good that was there because they weren’t trying to take away what… They have a really sexual relationship, but that’s not all they have.” (Rob, 32:35)

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Craft & Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Blocking & Physical Performance

[33:07]

• Rob on Physicality of Joel
  • Recounts manic movement during basketball scenes, orchestrated by director Michael Katleman to visually capture sleeplessness (“as I was watching [the basketball scene], I was having memories… probably Michael Katleman coming up with ways to keep me hyper…” 33:37)

Lighting & Production Design

• Janine felt the episode lacked a sense of “barrage of light” to sell the theme of constant daylight. “I just would have liked more light… even when we were outside or in… it just didn’t feel like the sun, you know… I didn’t feel the sun.” (Janine, 35:43)

Editing Tricks & Actor Input

[23:07–26:05]

• Actors could lobby for their preferred takes early on, by asking for certain takes to be “printed.”
  • “Because we knew you guys wouldn’t see it if it wasn’t printed.” (Rob, 23:59)
• Editors mostly had to work with what was “printed,” but showrunner Josh Brand could request a print of all takes if dissatisfied.

Reaction Shots, Listening, & Performance

[46:28–50:26]

• Tom explains how editors use actors’ listening and reactions to enrich scenes (“If I want to get to Rob’s reaction… I might post lap your [Janine’s] line onto him,” 48:15), and praises Rob and Janine’s natural listening as performers.
• Rob: “Listening is… so much of it is reacting, not acting.”

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Editing and the Show’s Legacy

• Editing on Northern Exposure was a collaborative, nuanced process:
  • “Editing… takes 25 days: 10-11 days for editor’s cut, four days for director, a week and a half for producers, then sound and music. Always overlapping duties.” (Tom, 38:38)
• Shout-out to other editors: Adam Wolf, Brianna London, Sharon Silverman.

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Reflections on Northern Exposure’s Magic

• Cinematic Qualities

  • Seeing the show projected in a theater (“Aurora Borealis” episode) brought home its visual beauty and resonance.
  • “The performances and the writing were all there… when you have iconic moments, as soon as you say them, they’re just… indelible.” (Rob, 29:39)

• Benevolent vs. Nonjudgmental Universe

  • Deep philosophical discussions recur about whether Cicely, and the show’s universe, is ‘benevolent’ or simply ‘nonjudgmental.’
    • “Josh very emphatically said… it was a nonjudgmental universe.” (Rob, 38:16)

• The Editor’s Hidden Hand

  • “If you don’t see it, the editor’s done a good job. It’s kind of like your linemen in football.” (Tom, 59:43)

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Final Thoughts & Memorable Quotes

• Tom’s memory of showrunner Joshua Brand’s wisdom:
  • “‘Tom, it’s all downhill from here.’ It was not a cynical comment… Even my 35-year-old self thought, hmm, I may never have another series quite as charming as this.” (Tom, 59:45–60:33)
• “Editors are heroes… they really are.” (Rob, 59:23)

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:24 – Introduction to the “Midnight Sun” episode
• 02:54 – Detailed recap of the episode storylines (Rob)
• 06:38 – Rob details his line-learning process
• 11:43 – Tom Moore joins, discusses his editing history
• 16:37 – How editing philosophy shaped the show’s tone
• 18:49 – Tom’s experience editing the pilot and working with Josh Brand
• 23:07–25:28 – How actors influenced which takes editors used
• 28:12–29:55 – Tom reflects on iconic scenes and Northern’s unique quality
• 31:21, 31:42, 31:58 – Notable episode lines and moments
• 33:07 – Discussion of manic, physical performance scenes
• 35:43 – Janine critiques episode lighting and sun portrayal
• 44:03 – Tom on cues and music’s role in scoring
• 48:15 – Editing reaction shots and actor’s responses
• 53:05 – The mechanics and ramifications of looping lines
• 59:45, 61:29 – Final reflections on the show’s legacy and editing

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Conclusion

This episode of Northern Disclosure delivers a rare blend of humor, technical insight, nostalgic storytelling, and honest reflection—hallmarks of both the original show and its talented cast and crew. By bringing in Tom Moore, listeners are treated to the editor’s invisible hand and the communal passion that made Cicely, Alaska, timeless. As Tom puts it: “I may never have another series quite as charming as this."

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Noteworthy Quotes for Fans & Newcomers:

• “When it’s time to conquer, everything comes your way.” (31:21)
• “If you don’t see it, the editor’s done a good job.” (59:43)
• “It’s all downhill from here.” – Joshua Brand, showrunner (60:33)

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Transcript

[Janine Fleischman]

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[Tom Moore]

There's no one like you, and there never will be.

[Rob Morrow]

From the producer Bohemian Rhapsody There are

[Tom Moore]

many legends, but there is only one Michael.

[Rob Morrow]

Radio PG13 in theaters April 24. Good morning, Sicily. I just wanted to say that. Janine, you go ahead.

[Janine Fleischman]

Well, I think it's an appropriate episode for you to totally take over the microphone after what happened in this episode, Midnight Sun.

[Tom Moore]

You're right.

[Janine Fleischman]

Which was one of my favorite moments, wasn't it? When you were in front of the microphone, you go swish.

[Rob Morrow]

It's a great little moment. And that's a oner, by the way, that we're talking about to the audience, who we haven't even said hello to yet.

[Janine Fleischman]

Hi, everybody.

[Rob Morrow]

Hello, everyone. We're talking about the episode Midnight sun, which is season four, episode two. And yeah, there's a scene where I'm on the. I'm. I'm wired because I haven't slept and I'm. I'm. I've got the mic in the DJ booth and. And Chris and Bernard are asleep and I've just taken over and it's a. It's a one or that shot. I realized watching it. It's just one long take with me just spewing dialogue.

[Janine Fleischman]

But isn't that when you go swish?

[Rob Morrow]

I do it finishes. It ends up in a close up of me and I. I do that. That story about basketball.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yep. Well, welcome everybody to Northern Disclosure, where my oh, so handsome and debonair. Shall I say that's my wife's name. His wife's name. Debonair. Rob Morrow. And we are in season four. This is episode two, Midnight Sun. We're thrilled to be with y' all today. Hello, hello, hello. Tell your friends all about it. Hit that subscribe button. And we have a great guest today. Our guest is one of our editors, is our first editor on the show. We had three editors on Northern Exposure. So Tom Moore is with us today and we cannot wait to bring him on in just a few momentos after Rob and I walk through this episode when I was talking to Rob before we got. We Started. Wow, what an episode for Rob Morrow. Right, Everybody talk about dialogue.

[Rob Morrow]

As the nighttime darkness disappears and the sun refuses to set, Joel finds himself with a boundless amount of energy and horny. He can't do much with one, but he can work off some of the other by taking on the coaching of Sicily's basketball team. Joel isn't the only one feeling aroused, though, as Shelley's cheerleading outfit proves to be a distracting influence on Holling, who isn't the only one with love on his mind as a traveling salesman comes to Sicily and begins romancing Ruthanne. It's a. It's. The premise is basically that the sun. Well, it's not. I mean, it's reality is that the sun doesn't set for many days in Alaska, and it has a kind of effect on people differently. And in Joel's case, I wonder how

[Janine Fleischman]

many days the sun doesn't set in Alaska. Shall I Google it?

[Rob Morrow]

Sure, why not?

[Janine Fleischman]

Oh. Oh, wow. Okay. Alaska's northernmost city, the sun does not set for 84 to 85 consecutive days.

[Rob Morrow]

I guess in the show, the premise is that it's the tail end of

[Janine Fleischman]

it, but that's in the northernmost city, so it may be a little less in the southern. Southern Alaska. Okay. It says Fairbanks. It's 24 hour daylight for about 70 days. Anchorage. 24 hours. Oh, Anchorage does not experience true 24 hour sun. So it's really more Fairbanks and in the north. But that's a long time to not have the sunset.

[Rob Morrow]

That's a long time. And it affects people. You know, there's circadian rhythms, and it's wild watching Joel just kind of. You see it, and it's great. The makeup department, you know, has. There's circles under my eyes, and you can see the progression. I think Michael Cataman directed this. Once again, one of our favorite directors. It was written by Jeffrey Nair, who. Whose name I don't really recognize. I'm not sure he was a regular writer for us. But Michael did such a good job of progressing Joel, you know, to the point where he passes out. Ultimately, I thought he really kind of. I remember. I remember. You know, there's. For some reason we talk about how we don't remember stuff, but I remembered certain things from this episode, and I do remember him kind of guiding me to find the gradations. So it wasn't all just one level of. Of hyper.

[Janine Fleischman]

There you are with all your words again. Gradations. The word of the day is gradations. Remember that? Remember that game show, what was it called? Password Password. The password is gradations. Anyway. Yeah, all kinds of things. I remember filming this episode. I remember walking into the. That kind of trailer where I tried on all the hats.

[Rob Morrow]

You were so cute in those hats. Oh, my God. And that dress. Do we see that dress again? It feels like.

[Janine Fleischman]

I feel like we do.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Janine Fleischman]

I feel like we do. And since we know now that Katherine, our wardrobe, costume designer, wanted to create a closet, so to speak, you go back to the same clothes. I'm sure we did. But, Rob, I just have to say I have some other things I want to say about this episode. But you were fantastic in this episode. All that you had to do. It was sort of a real shining star episode for you. Maybe I should say it was a shining sun episode for you. And you rose like the sun rises to the occasion. And I just kept thinking, oh, my gosh, what lines you had to learn. What do you remember about all those lines you had to learn? And say them so rapid fire fast.

[Rob Morrow]

I do remember being a little overwhelmed, but once I get to the set, I know stuff cold, so it's, you know, I can have fun and play.

[Janine Fleischman]

How did you learn those lines? How did you do it?

[Rob Morrow]

The same way I do, always. I mean, I first break the scene down, the scenes down, the episode down in terms of emotional beats and. And what's going on with the inner life of. Of Joel. And then. And then I set about learning it, and I. It takes me hours. It's not easy. I don't. I'm not someone who learns. It learns quickly. But once you recite them with somebody. No, no, I don't. I never do it with anyone. I. Now sometimes if I'm doing a play, I'll use one of those. You know, Scriptation has a great app for learning lines, which is really useful if it's a lot. But if it's a movie or TV show, I. I tend to just. I'll sit in front of a wall, I'll say it. You know, I'll say each line, I'll add another line, I'll add another line. And I. I don't have a photographic memory, but I can kind of see the page. And so I know I' Bottom of the page. Okay. I repeat that a few times. And if I have that, I go to the next page and I add. And I add. And then I do this thing where I literally will do 20 times. I do five times saying the words without any emotion at all, just as dry, without any punctuation, and I just say them and then I get up and I act it out. I actually act it out the way I imagine it will be blocked. And sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. But then I will do that another five times. I do that 20 times, and by 20th time, I'm rapid fire spitting those lines out. And then I'll do that for many days. Like, depending on how many days I have, you know, I'll do it. I'll do that, you know, twice a day. So sometimes I'll run it 40 times a day so that I can really be free and, And. And playful when I get to the set.

[Janine Fleischman]

Fascinating. I have a. And we need to get to Tom here, but I. I have a very. I have to hear someone say it with me.

[Rob Morrow]

Interesting. I think a lot of people are like that.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah. Scriptation might be actually a really great tool for me. I. I do it in my head and I say it out loud and I say. And I. I would. I would memorize by alliterations and things. I would spell things. So let's say I had a lot of edge. I mean, I've talked and said this before. A lot of adjectives I'll like, oh, that's an lll or that's an ll. M. And M becomes 4L. I knew that kind of thing in my head, right? O and then N and P and. Okay.

[Rob Morrow]

And that's like mnemonics. You create mnemonics in your brain.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, I would play that in my brain, and that helps me memorize. And so I play a lot of word games like that. And then I say it and I go over it and over and over it and I say it. But I don't know. I have to hear somebody else doing it with me before it clicks, because then I'm actually. It's different once I start to act, because then all the emotions in it and it would change the way I would deliver the line. So everything. And then. And then if I learned a certain cadence, that cadence would change when the real world came in and all my emotions and my choices kicked in. And so then if the cadence didn't work anymore, you know, it's kind of like learning. Learning lines to a song or that. That movie, the Spelling Bee, you know, where they would jump rope and sing to be able to spell songs. So you kind of got that in your head. And then when you try to bring in acting, then it all goes out the window.

[Rob Morrow]

And I find it physically, physically painful. It hurts me. And here's the wildest thing I've Been doing this a thousand years now. I have never, ever, not once, shown up 150% off book, ready to rock. Never. But every single day when I get ready and start to do the work, I am overwhelmed with anxiety that I will not be able to learn those lines. Nobody could learn those lines. It's an impossibility. And I'm going to fail and get fired every single time I start, I start there. But by the time I'm done, I'm like, I got this. And I. And I'm like, why do I have to go through the anxiety when I know I've been doing it so long now, but yet I go through it.

[Janine Fleischman]

Well, that's just part. Like Laurence Olivier throwing up every time before he went on the stage.

[Rob Morrow]

There you go. Exactly.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, I'm. And I have to warm up a little. So. They would always joke on Northern Exposure that it was about my fourth or fifth take where I was in gear. You know, I just kind of like.

[Rob Morrow]

Let's talk about our guest, Tom Moore.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yes. We're so excited to have him on the show.

[Rob Morrow]

He edited 38 episodes of Northern Exposure.

[Janine Fleischman]

That's a lot.

[Rob Morrow]

But his credits are. Are endless Blue Bloods, 93 episodes, Drop Dead Diva, Lie to Me, Lone Star, Scoundrels, Monk, Purge Life, Nurses, Bones, 12 episodes.

[Janine Fleischman]

How many episodes on Monk?

[Rob Morrow]

Monk was seven episodes. Judging AB, 138 episodes. Tom and I have a lot of crossover with people we know.

[Janine Fleischman]

Wow, that's a lot of time in the editor's chair. That's a lot of. I want to talk to him about that alone.

[Rob Morrow]

Tom, how you doing?

[Janine Fleischman]

How you doing, Tom?

[Tom Moore]

Great. Thank you for the lovely introduction. I think I've done. I counted at one point, I think, maybe over 250 episodes of episodic TV. So, yeah, it's quite a bit.

[Rob Morrow]

Wow, that's so amazing. Well, you look great, and we're thankful for you being here with us. What's that still behind your head?

[Tom Moore]

There's a California artist. His name's Shag. He kind of does retro art, and my wife and I are big fans of him.

[Rob Morrow]

It looks like the Jetsons.

[Tom Moore]

Well, look him up. He also the. He does some Disney stuff, and the tiki people are really into him, so.

[Rob Morrow]

Oh.

[Janine Fleischman]

Oh, interesting. Okay. Well, fabulous. Well, welcome. You know, I can't wait to hear all the stories about editing because. And all the very. The way it's changed from when you started. I mean, in the day. When I started in the 70s, it was still. You had to splice the film and put it together. So you have. You have. My mother used to say when we went to the EPOD type center, you know, Disney was Disneyland. They were doing this. This is the way it was in the 1800s and then the early 1900s and all the. She says, my grandparents lived through such epic changes, from horse and buggy, you know, to going to the moon. So you've seen so much of how it's changed. I'd be really interested to hear about that.

[Tom Moore]

You know, it even changed during the course of Northern Exposure. I, of course, started on film. My first year was 1979, and film was kind of used up until the late 80s. I worked on a couple movies, Rain man and Cocktail, we were on film on that. With flatbeds and most of television, it was cheaper just to have a movie ola, where the film and the track, it would be separate, and you'd have to put them in simultaneously, and they'd go, brr. And then you'd stop when you found a cutting point. When Northern started, there was a system called the Montage that was like 13 beta kind of VHS decks. And then I think in the second or third season, we went to the Avid, which is kind of the industry standard right now. But even the first year on Avid, the storage was. I mean, to digitize stuff. Now you can put a terabyte on a little thumb drive. Then a gigabyte was this breadbox, which was giant, and the assistant would come on and put it in and lock it up. So I've seen a lot of technological change over my career.

[Rob Morrow]

Do you think there's any loss in the new technology, or is it better?

[Tom Moore]

I don't. You can. Because I remember I was talking to my, you know, my friends on Rain Man. They go, we're never going to go to digital editing. And I go, yeah, but when a director finds out he can do 10 changes in the time that you can do one change, he's going to want it. And that kind of drove the change to digital editing.

[Janine Fleischman]

And then, well, I guess it had gone from film. When I started in the 70s, it was film, but then film could be transferred to vhs. Right. And you really probably during Northern, you were doing it.

[Tom Moore]

My memory is Northern was all shot on film and then, like you said, transferred. But they cut the negative, and so they had the negative as a backup for DVDs and streaming and that sort of thing.

[Janine Fleischman]

So how would you. You mean they would cut the actual film?

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, but they would just cut the negative. We never cut film. It was always Digital controlled.

[Janine Fleischman]

What's the difference in the negative in the film?

[Tom Moore]

They shoot the negative. And then that's kind of your master that you can make multiple prints out of. If you're doing movies, you need a master that you can make a thousand prints off or whatever.

[Janine Fleischman]

Right, right, right, right. Because they had to go out to all the movie theaters.

[Tom Moore]

Exactly, yeah, yeah.

[Janine Fleischman]

So by then were you. It was getting transferred to VHS for you and you ed than for Northern Exposure.

[Tom Moore]

Correct, correct. I mean, not to get too technical, but that first system, the assistant would record it over to the 13 beta decks and then deck number one would play the first shot, deck number two would play the second and onward. But if you had a voiceover or a lot of action, the system had a hard time keeping up with it. Because if you had shortcuts, like a one second cut, a three second cut, it couldn't go, it couldn't zip down to the next place.

[Rob Morrow]

Must have been hard and frustrating to be learning new technology in the middle of trying to put out an episodic television series, you know.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah. And you. And there was really no schools for it. They kind of brought the system in, you know, day one and you go, okay. They threw you in and go, okay, this is your system here. And I remember the first year on Avid, the resolution wasn't that great. And I kind of edit from actors eyes, you know, that's where I see, you know, the subtext and their motion and that sort of thing. And it was a little, it was very digitized and so it was difficult for a while. And then they kind of worked that, you know, process out talk about editing

[Janine Fleischman]

from the actor's eyes. I like that. Talk to me about that.

[Tom Moore]

I mean, you guys were talking about your preparation and I have to say, you both extremely prepared and it makes an editor's job a lot easier. I do. I mean, since I have had the opportunity to direct, I kind of, I kind of edit from what the character's objective is in the scene. And so typically on Northern, you're really spinning the gold because the scripts are so terrific in your performances. But when a scene is problematic, you go back to the script and you go, what does this character want in this scene? Can I give a kernel or a nugget to the audience so that they can kind of. They have something to latch onto so the scene is a little bit more meaningful when a lot of 80, 90% of Northern was pretty easy to edit in the sense of. Compared to shows that are struggling. But the performances and the writing Was all there. It's the shows that aren't quite as successful where you really struggle and you have to pull out your bag of tricks.

[Rob Morrow]

So how did you come to the show? Do you remember?

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, at the time, there were few people that knew that montage. I really had no business being on Northern Exposure number one, and I certainly had no business doing the pilot. But what happened? Cheryl Block got my name. I had worked on the Wonder Years, and I kind of gotten passed over after being promised there to move up to editor. And so Cheryl interviewed me, and we kind of had, you know, had a shared love of music. And so I think, you know, she knew that Josh had that orientation. And I remember going in to interview with Josh and he kind of has, you know, he has my resume, and I think he kind of turned it over to see if I had more credits. It was kind of like one season of Baywatch. He's like, well, if Sheryl recommends the guy, I guess we'll go with them. It was funny, too. At a certain point, maybe after a year or two, he gave me kind of a backhanded comment. He goes, well, you know, you were good when you got here, but you got a lot better. I think he was kind of saying, you weren't that great when you got here, but, boy, you've become a good editor now.

[Janine Fleischman]

But you edited the pilot. I don't even think I realized that.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, there was another editor. The hot show, the water cooler show at the time was LA Law, and the guy there was supposed to do the pilot, and he was kind of burned out from doing 20 episodes, so they threw it to me. I have no idea why, but I have to say, working with Josh, I watched a couple of your interviews and stuff, and he was 100%. The editorial changes on a lot of shows, they will allow the writer of the episode to come in and give a few notes and that sort of thing. But it was 100%, you know, Josh's bailiwick. And I mean, he just had an ear. Very. He had a. He had an ear because he created it, but he really had an ear for the cadence of pace. And, you know, he always. Although he won best Drama, he always says, you know, this is a comedy. And I mean, one of the most daunting notes I ever received. We were. We were. It was, you know, maybe my second episode. And he goes, tom, this isn't funny. Go back and make it funny. And I thought, did he just say for me to, you know, to solve the scene? I look over the System's notes and says, this scene doesn't work. Make this funny. And that usually means speeding it up and kind of putting a few more cuts in. But a producer has never said that to me before or since, so it was a pretty amazing moment.

[Janine Fleischman]

So how would you make a scene funny? I mean, if you needed to make a scene funny and you just said quick takes going back and forth. Cause I'm editing right now something. I want it to. To be funnier than it is.

[Tom Moore]

You know, I watched three episodes in preparation talking to you. I watched Sicily, Midnight sun and Burning down the House, and something like Midnight Sun. I mean, that's. You're driving the editing on that episode, Rob. And so I'm just trying to keep up with you and kind of, you know, the fear that you have watching it, you know, 30 years later, did I overcut this? Is it too cutty? That sort of thing? And it wasn't. I mean, as you guys mentioned on your podcast, I marvel at kind of the filmic aspect of the show, how, you know, 35 years later, it's beautiful. It's not overcut. It's, you know, when you have. I remember the first eight, the first 16. There were. You know, there were. I think we struggled with more episodes, obviously, than later on when they kind of found their footing. But, you know, if there's a scene that's not working, usually you are speeding up, you are cutaways to kind of just give it a cadence and you're trying to fool the audience. I remember the second season, the Eve character. It's the only time I can remember. I mean, she was terrific. Who's the Valerie Mahaffy?

[Rob Morrow]

Valerie Mahaffey, Yes. She passed away. RIP Valerie. Yeah.

[Tom Moore]

And I remember it was the only time or was a kind of edict from Josh's. I don't believe this is a grounded in reality. And I think the Eve character was kind of pushed a little far at the beginning of the second season. So we were kind of tasked of kind of pulling back the reins, or if you have a performance that doesn't work and sometimes you're playing it off camera a little bit more, but you try not to do that.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, it's a fine line, right? It's a fine line. You can see even in this episode, Midnight sun, it just kind of skirted the line with becoming preposterous, you know, but it. But it. But it did stay grounded. And I think it was in the writing. And Michael Cattleman, you know, who was such a. So you said Josh was the final Arbiter of cuts. But was the directors ever involved?

[Tom Moore]

I mean, they were, but it was a good process. Because what can happen? I mean, if you ever work on a pilot, the stakes are so high. It's somebody's baby that they've been making their whole trying for their whole career to launch. And they'll be sitting back on a couch and you'll work 12 hours a day trying to find it. And the directors on this show would either email. I think they would either email or they would come in for a half day. They would kind of give broad notes and taking nothing away from them, they just, they were saying, here's the broad strokes or here's, you know, a shot or a performance that I'm looking for. You have four days. You know, the DGA kind of agreed upon number of days.

[Janine Fleischman]

Something I thought the listeners might enjoy hearing this, that love the show and the behind the scenes that we're trying to give them is. And of course, you know, we learned. We learned to be able to go up and say the same thing, especially Rob and I. I think Rob and I were the only ones that ever really did it. But the script supervisor is there and let's say there are four takes. And then the director will say, mark take number three. And you don't even do that anymore, really. But, you know, because. But it's like, mark, take number three.

[Rob Morrow]

You say, print it.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, I'll print it. That's it. Yeah, print. Thank you, Rob. Because I didn't think that's it. Because you can still mark it. But yeah, print it. Print take number three. So. And then Rob and I would learn just to do that, you know, Rob and I would go up like, can you print number two? Like, I really like number two. Could you please print number two too? You know, this was my, you know, I felt really full on, on, you know, can you Please print take 6? But.

[Rob Morrow]

Because we knew you guys wouldn't see it if it wasn't printed. So we were like hoping that you would then agree. And I think we were probably right. Often, you know, where that, that take did end up in the episode, you

[Janine Fleischman]

know, and you bring up a really good point, Rob, that the younger up and comers wouldn't really even understand that now you can see all the dailies because it's not, you know, it's just easy. It's just, you know, high def. It's whatever it is, you know. But back then, Rob is correct. You didn't even get. Nobody would see it if it wasn't Printed. So in that respect, where I'm going with this, the director did have sway because he said what you're seeing was what he wanted printed. Or he or she, shall I say?

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, 100%. I think that also the other term would be circle takes. And if a director had a, you know, had a preference for one, he would star it. I mean, I would try to watch all the dailies before I started, especially on an emotional scene. And I kind of know where it's going. I know I'd know which takes that I kind of wanted to use. I mean, you know, by the 2000s back then, average day was probably an hour and a half of dailies. Now you're up to three to five hours with, you know, multiple cameras and stuff. So it's. The job has become more difficult of even getting through the footage. Back then, you know, an hour and a half was good.

[Janine Fleischman]

So are you saying that you did see all the takes regardless, they printed all of them or.

[Tom Moore]

No, no, they didn't, because they were always trying to save money. I mean, now digital costs nothing.

[Janine Fleischman]

You say, you're just saying of the ones that were printed, when Rob and I went up and said, number two.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, 100%.

[Rob Morrow]

What would happen, though, is like if Josh came in and he wasn't happy with the episode, he'd have them print everything. He'd say, let me see everything, you know, and they'd have to go back and get it all. And he, they. They'd look through it all and they'd re reconceive the whole thing.

[Janine Fleischman]

I can relate to Josh a little bit. I'm very much like that. I'm sure you are too, Rob. I'm very much meticulous and detail oriented.

[Rob Morrow]

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[Tom Moore]

Amazon presents

[Rob Morrow]

Jeff versus taco truck salsa. Whether it's verde roja or the orange

[Tom Moore]

one, for Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea and milk.

[Rob Morrow]

Habanero.

[Tom Moore]

More like habanero.

[Rob Morrow]

Yes. Save the everyday with Amazon.

[Janine Fleischman]

K Pop Demon Hunters. Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt tricks meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Rob Morrow]

It is an honor to share.

[Janine Fleischman]

No, it's our honor.

[Rob Morrow]

It is our larger honor.

[Janine Fleischman]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side. Ba da ba ba ba.

[Rob Morrow]

And participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Tom Moore]

You know, I was going through the episodes. I was. I mean, for me, you know, I heard Jeff Melvoin talking about. What did he call it? The. When I wrote it down, the starting five, you know, Frolov and Schneider, Robin and Mitch and Jeff Melvoin and oh, my God, you know, this is the only show I ever worked on where a script would come out and somebody would say, oh, my God, have you read Kaddish for Uncle Manny? You know, when you're in the middle of your career, you got kids, you barely have enough time to read your own scripts. But on this show, I mean, they were such marvelous as you guys have trumpeted over the time. I mean, in one year, I had probably nine of the ten. My favorite scenes. I had the piano fling, Ruth Ann dancing on her grave, the short film that Ed makes, the Sicily episode, the funeral pyre scene of all of Anna, and then the Aurora Borealis episode.

[Rob Morrow]

Jesus.

[Tom Moore]

Oh, my God. It was just. And I knew at the time, you know, I'd worked on. I was assistant editor for a long time. And I knew that this was a special show.

[Rob Morrow]

Those are all great references that you just brought up, right, Janine? I mean, those are such. Those are iconic moments. I mean, if you went and polled. If we went and polled our audience right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a bunch of those out of their hats, you know? Cause those are such great. As soon as you say them, you're just like. They were so indelible. They were so well directed and so well edited.

[Tom Moore]

The Rora Borealis episode, I don't know if you guys made it to or not. That one was shown in a theater in Los Angeles. Was it like the. The television academy?

[Janine Fleischman]

We all went. We were there. Rob and I were there at least. Yeah.

[Tom Moore]

Oh, you were? Yeah. Yeah.

[Rob Morrow]

One of my favorite episodes. It's so beautiful. It's so cinematic.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah. I mean, the thing about working in television, especially as an editor, you know, you rarely. You watch it at home with your wife and your kids, but you rarely get to see it with an audience. And that, you know, you knew that was the end of the first season, obviously, the eight. And you're like going, oh, my God, this really works. I mean, the. The audience, you know, at that theater, I don't remember where it was, was just, you know, totally with it.

[Rob Morrow]

And there's also something about. It must be a little like when you see a television show projected on a big screen.

[Tom Moore]

I have.

[Rob Morrow]

I have a pilot I did that's going to be projected next weekend, and I've only seen it on this little screens, you know, and so to see it, it just. It. I'm. I'm actually. I was talking to the producer last night and saying, you know, you must be a little scared because all of a sudden you see stuff that. What you didn't. Noah's there. Because you're looking at these little. I mean, although now in editing rooms, you get a pretty big screen, but not like. Not like a giant movie theater.

[Tom Moore]

Oh, you. Oh, you're projecting in a movie theater. Oh, my goodness.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Janine Fleischman]

But, you know, something about the episode of this particular episode, and I was gonna look at the other lines I liked. I loved the nuances of John Cullum's attraction to Cynthia in her cheerleading outfit. Once again, John Cullum just rocks it. Somebody said when it's time to conquer, everything comes your way. Was that you, Ro? It sounds like something probably Chris in the Morning said. Somebody said it when it's. But I like that line, when it's time to conquer, everything comes your way. It may have been your line, Rob.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. When I was coaching them, maybe.

[Janine Fleischman]

And why did I write. And there was another line, Waitress nurses for. Oh, waitress nurses. Oh, oh, oh. It was my line when I'm talking about the fantasies that men always have. And it was waitress, waitresses, nurses, and then forest rangers.

[Rob Morrow]

What's great about it, Janine, is the look. You give a little look, like at the end of it. Like, oh, my God, what The men I have to deal with in this life of mine, you know, it's just such a great expression on your face. I love. And Shelly says. Shelly says. You think cheering is about nookie, right?

[Janine Fleischman]

Exactly.

[Tom Moore]

You know, I was gonna say when I started watching the episode, I had forgotten the storylines, and I thought, oh, my God, is the Shelley Halling, you know, relationship gonna hold up? And it was. You know, it was in the. You guys have talked about the show being a souffle, and, you know, Holling has. He has a line, those bitsy fuzzball at the end of your shoelaces. And Shelley goes, that's bitching, babe. And it dissipates any sort of lechery. And it's just, you know, it's where they were so smart on that relationship and, you know, and many other ones.

[Janine Fleischman]

It was innocent. There was an innocence.

[Rob Morrow]

Except, though there was a couple looks that they let. That I'm glad they let hold, because they cut to Holling as Schelling walked away, and he was checking out her ass or something, and it was like. And it was. He was. Was lusting. He was hot for her. And it was good that that was there because they weren't trying to, you know, take away what. I mean. They have a really sexual relationship, but that's not all they have.

[Janine Fleischman]

The reason those lustful looks work, though, is because John Cullen was just such a wholesome individual, you know, brought such honesty and goodness to what he did. So it wasn't lecherous.

[Tom Moore]

Rob, let me ask you. On the blocking on. I think it's maybe the. The only. The only practice thing you have there, but I'm watching it. I don't think it was quite a oner, but you're chewing your gum, your eyes are kind of black for the first time. You're perspiring a little bit. You're going up and down the bleachers. And that thing. Do you remember any of the blocking on that? Because your physicality conveyed such the manicness of Joel in the Sun.

[Rob Morrow]

I think as I was watching, it definitely was having some memories of it. And I think that was probably Michael Cattleman coming up, coming up with ways to keep me hyper so he plays, you know, because even as I'm watching it, I was thinking like, well, how did all those balls get up into the stands? It seems a little ridiculous, but it's such a great way to convey, you know, as opposed to, you know. And it also looked like we shot that Room. You know, being a director, I. We shot like three quarters of that room and we never turned around. So I think they had to. They didn't. They probably didn't want me to go back, you know, in the other ways.

[Janine Fleischman]

And John Column. Not John Column. John Corbett played it very. He was. Underneath his feeling that I get, you know, he's tired, he's kind of not into anything, and he's just like. His energy was sort of. It's always so interesting to watch since we all grew up together and we're. You know, it's like, okay, was he just in a bad mood that week?

[Rob Morrow]

I think that was written in the script that everyone has a different reaction to the sun.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, Maggie was just. Non plus. Maggie just. It just didn't even affect Maggie at all. But, you know, the one thing I felt was missing from the show, and I am a humongous fan of Frank Prinzie and that whole crew, so I just think he. He and the whole crew hung the moon and hang the moon, they were just brilliant. But I felt something was missing in this episode, which was a barrage of light. You know, it just seems like sometimes it's like I didn't feel. I just would have liked more light. I didn't get the feeling from the episode, even when we were outside or even when. When we were in. It just didn't. I didn't feel the sun, you know, and it seems to me if the sun was everywhere, you know, if we'd had it beaming into your office and. Because I remember, you know, being there even in Seattle where, you know, the sun wouldn't set for a very, very long time, and it would just be pouring into your. So I don't know, I felt that was something that was kind of missing a little bit. It was a lack of feeling seen and that bright, bright, bright sun.

[Rob Morrow]

Tom, how about that ball? The opening is such a great little.

[Janine Fleischman]

But it didn't match. It didn't match.

[Rob Morrow]

What do you mean?

[Janine Fleischman]

The ball bounces in the very opening by the dog that's running across or something. And then suddenly later, the ball comes down the hill. Did y' all catch that?

[Rob Morrow]

It was a time jump or something, right? It wasn't.

[Janine Fleischman]

Was that a different ball?

[Rob Morrow]

No, no, it was the same.

[Janine Fleischman]

Okay, so the ball was in town, and then it just rolled back up and came back down again, I guess.

[Rob Morrow]

I think it was a different hill. It was a different hill that it

[Janine Fleischman]

came down, but it was already in the. The ball was in the town. And then later, the ball Comes down the hill. So did you catch that, Tom?

[Tom Moore]

I don't know if there was a cut there or not, but I was gonna say, the thing that really kicked off the episode for me is when Joel goes. The kid goes by in the back and you go, atta boy, attaboy. As he's going by, we go, oh, my gosh, this is a new Joel. We, you know, we usually don't see. So that was terrific.

[Rob Morrow]

But it's such a great, you know, the way they were able to do. We talk about the metaphysics of this show a lot. And that's such a kind of great metaphor, you know, of the, of this ball, this, this random event in the universe happening. Like our planet, our Earth spinning around the solar system, you know, just bouncing into this world and all of a sudden the. It's a different. It's a different world. You know, it just was. I just, it was so clever. Whoever thought of that, because it's poetic. It's not. It had nothing to do with the, the, the story, per se, although the basketball is part of it. But it just, it just, it's such a. I just love that, that the image of it.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, it just seemed like a director's trick when you first see it. And then you realize, oh, it's gonna, you know, it's obviously gonna fold into Joel being a coach. You know, I wanted to mention to you guys because you've been talking. You guys talk about. What's the quote you've been talking about is it's a non judgmental universe. And I watched Burning down the House and I thought, Joel is the only one concerned about this, you know, this cow being flung and then, you know, burst into moon pieces. And everybody that you go to, they're kind of like, yeah, that's what we do here. It's okay, don't worry about it. And it's, you know, it's so unexpected and is one of the great charms of the show. It is lovely.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. It's such a great episode. And yeah, we love the idea. Janine and I like to call it a benevolent universe, but Josh very emphatically said. He never said that, that it was a non judgmental universe.

[Janine Fleischman]

They're kind of the same.

[Rob Morrow]

Josh would say that the universe has no skin in the game, doesn't care whether you succeed or fail. Benevolence implies that grace will save you somehow.

[Janine Fleischman]

It's more coming from a higher power.

[Rob Morrow]

As I said to Josh, it may be a nonjudgmental universe, but there is benevolence in it.

[Tom Moore]

I would be remiss. I need to mention there were three editors on the show. Adam Wolf, who did many episodes. One was Soulmates, which was. I was extremely jealous of. And then Brianna London and Sharon Silverman, they won the. There's an editor's honorary society ace and they won that award for Kaddish for Uncle Manny. So it's really with editing, you know, it takes 25 days. It's between maybe 10 or 11 days for the editor's cut, four days for the director, a week and a half for the producers, and then sound and music. So we're always overlapping the duties on an episode. So those two people contribute greatly. Certainly just as much as I did. And I want to mention the two of them. Maybe you'll have one of them on the show.

[Rob Morrow]

Maybe after, when we finish, we can get there if you've got any. I think we have. Brianna's in place.

[Janine Fleischman]

Well, Brianna is booked. We have Brianna. She's coming.

[Rob Morrow]

But the other ones. Right, Adam.

[Janine Fleischman]

We can't find Adam.

[Tom Moore]

I can't find myself. So he may be. I'm not sure where he went.

[Janine Fleischman]

Foreign.

[Tom Moore]

This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is when a great movie hits the screen, you show up.

[Rob Morrow]

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[Tom Moore]

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[Wil Wheaton]

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[Rob Morrow]

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[Tom Moore]

Stock the fridge for tip off with

[Wil Wheaton]

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[Tom Moore]

Well, you know, another thing I wanted to mention is Northern was the first series I ever worked on where there was a tone meeting. Were you guys aware or were you privy to kind of. I'm assuming the directors would come to you with certain insight, obviously, and a lot of it would come from Josh. I mean, when you work, I worked on a lot of procedurals. When you're on procedural, the tone isn't quite as important. On something like this, that's a souffle. And you naturally are trying to act, edit, direct in a way that there's tension in the scenes. But Josh was always very clear of light, like what lines or what moments are. Kind of the tension is in the dialogue or the charm or the beauty of it. Were you aware or privy to any of the tone meetings or. Not really.

[Rob Morrow]

I mean, we weren't involved in tone meetings, but we would be given either the director would fill us in as needed, or every once in a while you'd get a call from one of the producers anticipating some event in a scene coming up, and they'd want to give you a heads up, you know, because there's ambiguity in it and they wanted to go a certain way. And so there was times where you'd get a call like that. But for the most part, it was the director who was responsible for conveying the tone of the producer's wishes.

[Janine Fleischman]

We just didn't have the time. I mean. Cause you go from you wrap at midnight one day and the next day you're right back at it. So we didn't have a. We never had any time to get everybody together to have a tone meeting. But that's. So what were those tone meetings? Like, what would they say?

[Tom Moore]

I mean, it was just very insightful because like I said, so much of tv, you know, especially procedurals, veer a little bit too much towards melodrama even you fight on those shows to keep the cues as not too dramatic and that sort of thing. And Northern was really interesting in the sense of it didn't have a lot of score. And it's funny if you go, you know, on the tree of television, if you go to the Sopranos, I think that had almost zero score. So what happened was the needle drops or the purchased music or the radio station would become the score for the episode. And so we weren't tasked with. I think you guys have mentioned before, sometimes the end of a scene would you drop back and it'd be a tableau or it'd be a headcock or a wink or whatever. And instead of trying to hyper up the drama or whatever it might be, there was little score on the show.

[Janine Fleischman]

Are you talking about the music?

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, I'm talking about the difference between. I mean, we call them needle drops of where you've purchased, you know, for 25 or $50,000, you've bought a song to, like when Ed and Peg dance on her grave, for example. You know, that sort of thing where you're buying music.

[Rob Morrow]

At the end of this episode, they have the. I don't Mind if I do the George Strait version?

[Janine Fleischman]

And everybody's dancing. And I have to tell you, I was looking for Maggie and o' Connell and Fleischman to see if they were dancing together.

[Rob Morrow]

It was Friday. You had a long weekend.

[Janine Fleischman]

No, no, I was in the scene in the bar. I come up to you at the end of the. At the end of the bar. So I was there.

[Tom Moore]

There's a really good cue in Midnight Sun, Rob, when you're on the radio and Chris and his brother are passed out in the back. And the slightly patriotic cue that goes on. And you're so into the, you know, the power of coaching and everything. It's one of the few cues, actually, in the episode, but between your performance and the music is really terrific.

[Rob Morrow]

And that's a oner. It's a nice. Really nice, nice, nice oner. Yeah. That finishes in the close up, where

[Janine Fleischman]

I say, I like oners. And just so people understand, you know, for those who don't really know, when we go to the theater and watch, say, an actress or an actor have a huge emotional scene, we as actors and even as editors, of course, direct anyone in the biz, you go, okay, she's crying now in the master. Okay, she's crying now in the cowboy. Okay, she's crying now in the closeup. So we all know that the actor had to stand there for 12 hours or whatever and bring that back up and make it match for every shot in the day, which I still prefer that than all these multi cameras, by the way. But that's what. But then we would know that if you saw an actor crying and it was all one shot, you knew that all had to be brought genuinely, and it could not be manipulated at all. So single shot, single shots, one shot. Like you're saying, Rob, you might have had different takes of it, but it's all genuine. There was no editing manipulation, so to speak, in those. That oner.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah. And that's why Brando said, famously, don't do anything in a scene you don't want to have to do 40 times over. Right. Because you're going to have to do it for all the different setups.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, but Brando was notorious for doing spontaneous things in scenes.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, but certain things you got to do, you got to do. You know, if you come in the door, you got to come in the door.

[Janine Fleischman]

But he's always surprised people. He always surprised people. But we don't have to worry about matching so much. I did. I did Friday Night Lights. I don't know how they. And Dr. T and the women with Robert Altman. I don't know how they edited it.

[Rob Morrow]

Do you know what Jack Nicholson said, speaking of all the names, the greats? Jack said, matching. Matching is for sissies, right?

[Janine Fleischman]

Well, then he would have liked Friday Night Lights and Robert Altman, because first of all, you weren't adhering to a script at all. It was all improv. And secondly, no matching. And I was always, what do you think about that, Tom? How in the world did they edit those shows?

[Tom Moore]

I was gonna say, on our show, the hardest scenes to do was always at the bar because they were raking twos. And invariably, on one take, your head would be forward and the other take would be. It might be that way. And you guys were great at matching, but I'd have to bring the other editors in and go, do I have any exorcist cuts here where your head's just like. Like, you know, swiveling around? So other than that, I was. Once again, when I watched the episodes, I was surprised at how filmic they were and how a lot of. Especially comedy tends to play a little bit better in two shots or tableaus and that sort of thing. So as much as we could. I mean, even though I'm an editor, I try to cut as little as I can. I had a question, kind of a. An acting question from kind of an editing viewpoint. Because when I'm editing, I'm trying to put the actor's behavior in there. And often that behavior can come from the beginning of a line where you're winding up or you're licking a lip or you cock your head and stuff. And I always try to honor that as much as I could in the first pass. But at a certain point, some of that gets lost. As actors, I mean, another trick that you do is sometimes if Janine. If Maggie is extremely convicted, I want to stay with her. I might pre lap the incoming line so the audience can see, and it kind of hits home for what they are. Or if I want to get to Rob's reaction, if he's like, fleischmann's winding up, I might post, lap your line onto him. Do you guys have a. Do you ever feel. Because I've had some actors on series complain about cutting away from them. Did you. In general, even in your entire career, just not North. And did you ever. Did you ever have a feeling of, like, geez, why are they cutting away from me? Or, why are they cutting off from me? Do you. Do you have that feeling?

[Janine Fleischman]

Yes.

[Rob Morrow]

Both of us would say, yeah, of course. But also, I understand, you know, that, you know, one of the things they teach you early on is act on the line. You know, so. Because. Because. And it's not even, you know, these things have to be cut for time. So if you're going to. Once you. At a certain point, after you've done all your artistic things, you're like, okay, I got to get this down to 46 minutes or whatever it is.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, I didn't work like that at all. I never acted for the line.

[Rob Morrow]

Right. But I'm saying. But I'm saying the way that ideally is that you act on the line as opposed to between the lines.

[Janine Fleischman]

I couldn't manipulate my performance that way. I just had to be genuinely in it and not thinking about how it's gonna be cut. Cause if I'm thinking about how it's gonna be cut, I'm not in it. So I just would be organically in it. And, you know, because otherwise I'm. My acting coach used to always say to me, you know, get the director out of your head. Get the director out of your head. Get the director out of your head. Like, oh, I should be doing this, or, oh, I should be doing that, or this should be this. Like, have no expectations. Just be honest with your choices. Make real strong. Like the way you worked lines. Rob, I worked choices, you know, I might have three or four different choices per page.

[Rob Morrow]

I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying I worked the lines. I'm saying that the idea is to do the acting on the line as opposed to adding these pauses and doing that between them. You know, Know, it's a. Basically a convention because the pause is going to get cut out. So if you want your feeling to be in it, it should come while you're staying the line. That's not a rule. It's just a basic approach.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, well, you know, everybody's got their own approach, so that's cool. You know what I mean? One way is not wrong and one way is not right. I'm just saying I can't have all that noise in my head.

[Tom Moore]

If I can give you guys both a compliment, you're both great listeners, and for fledgling actors out there, that gets you a lot of screen time. You know, I'm gonna wanna kinda wait. Often you're doing something more interesting because you're listening, you're not. Sometimes people are waiting for their next line. You guys are actually hearing what the character is saying, registering a reaction, and that gets you more Screen time. And it makes, you know, it makes the scene more rich.

[Rob Morrow]

It's a nice compliment because it is. I mean, listening is. You know, they say so much of it is reacting, not acting. And so listening. If you're listening, you don't have to act because it just happened. You get affected. Although Paul Newman said I have all the. I'm dropping all the great names tonight. So Paul Newman said that he was the greatest fake listener in the history of cinema.

[Tom Moore]

I never heard that quote. Did he say that?

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, he did.

[Janine Fleischman]

So he's saying he really wasn't listening.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, he just. But he looked like he was good at making people think he was listening, which I completely understand.

[Janine Fleischman]

I was always listening. I was really listening. And then I could play off that reaction that someone's giving me. Like, okay, if they're giving me this, I'm gonna react off that. And if I'm doing this, I'm gonna react off that. Because that's what we do in real life, to react. But this is really a fascinating conversation because those are the nuances of editing that add such richness is going in and maybe grabbing a reaction and. Okay, I wanna ask you a question, though. You know, we had so much looping that we had to do. And where we had to redo the lines so was. And then sometimes there were new lines made up that we didn't even have at the time. Or lines that, you know, we were told weren't said the way they wanted them said. And we were. You know, we've said this a lot, but it's like, okay, well, then you should be up here with us when we film it. Right? Because it was a certain energy, whether it was 2am or whatever, that we brought to it that brought such layers and richness to it. What was it like for you did then you have to go back and re edit. So, like, once we had to go loop all because looping was far down the line.

[Tom Moore]

If we were adding lines, the assistant editor would record a rough kind of scratch version to put in there. I have to say, Josh seemed more nervous about unspoken air in the first season or two, which I'm sure you guys can attribute to. And so not to be unfair, I mean, I thought 50% of them were great. I mean. But he had a sense of what he wanted the rhythm of the scene to be in the show to be. So, you know, granted that there was some ums and ahs, you know, maybe we didn't know. And I think, you know, tell me if I'm wrong. I think at a certain point, he backed off. I didn't mind the ones that maybe added information or humor. The ones that were just filling airtime, you know, are a little bit more. But when I watched the three episodes, you know, you're scarred. I'm sure you guys have a little ptsd. When I watched the episodes, I noticed none that were. We're loops.

[Janine Fleischman]

So I wondered from an editing standpoint. Right. So you. It's interesting to hear you would have someone scratch. Track our voices with that line.

[Tom Moore]

Not. Not if we. Not if we were redoing a line, but if we were adding a line.

[Rob Morrow]

That's. So they could cut the. For the timing, Janine. So they'd cut the timing. So, like, to your point earlier, because the looping comes in later, so they knew they were going to have us record it. And that's why sometimes you and I would get frustrated because they would establish a timing that we didn't. So we'd have to retrofit our emotions into it.

[Janine Fleischman]

Right. And then. And then the way we played it emotionally for the scene that it was. Ends up not being correct for the scene, it ends up becoming all right. And then we might have reacted differently if we'd known that it was in there. It was very frustrating.

[Rob Morrow]

And, Tom, the thing that. The thing that. I think you're right. Josh did get a little more relaxed as went on in the early. In the early seasons, he was very conscious about no dead air, you know, so they were constantly stuffing. You know, when they'd cut, when they'd be on our back, they'd be stuffing. Stuffing sentences in. The thing that bothered me was when it just seemed so impossible that I could get all that out. You know, they'd cut. They'd cut to me. I'd be saying one thing, then they'd cut behind my back, and I'd. I'd add, like, a whole sentence. Then they cut back to me. Those. Those bothered me because I feel like that even if an audience isn't aware technically what's going on, they're feeling the inauthenticity of it. Not to say it hurt the overall success of the show, but it. It did bother me.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah, because you're. You cutting to a scratch track, which, if we'd been on camera, we might have had a completely different reaction. So the seat was a little tricky. But, I mean, it all worked out. I mean, it all worked out in the wash because it was such a marvelous show and it worked in the long run. I think the things that were Trickier for me is not an added line, but when they wanted me to change the performance of a line and I had to match that line with a new performance, and that's hard.

[Tom Moore]

I would always slow down the assistant editor's performance to give you guys enough time, because performers are obviously. They imbue it with more meaning than, you know, assistant editor would. I was gonna say. When I was watching the Sicily episode, a big challenge was Ned's kind of voiceover narration of what happened 100 years ago. And you're trying to find ways of putting those lines on the most resonant character in the scene. I mean, there's a terrific performance by you, Rob, at the end when you go to the Brick, you're in the room, and there's kind of this sound design. And I want to give credit to the assistant editors. A lot of that stuff they create. It does vastly improve when you go to the mix stage. But a lot of that sound effects, the wind, the sound, the voices, that sort of thing.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, you're talking about this one. It's the last shot of Sicily in the episode Sicily, which we had Cheryl on actually talking about. But it's a oner, and it kind of starts wide and it pushes in on me, and you hear the different sounds of the history coming back in. And so you're saying those. The assistant editors had to kind of cull all that information and get it out and find an artistic way to have it in the shot.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But I was also. I can't remember if it was scripted or not. It seemed to me, because I remember struggling with that. And maybe somebody wanted. Maybe Josh or somebody wanted a little bit more of the townspeople. I think there's, you know, there's the Ned voiceover and then somebody else's voiceover in it. But, I mean, it just, you know, capped off a really love scene. And you have this kind of cryptic smile at the end of the show. That was really beautiful.

[Rob Morrow]

Yeah, it was a great episode.

[Janine Fleischman]

You know, as we learn as actors as it goes on, you know, we have our favorite takes, you know, and we're like, this is the way we wanted. This is the emotion where we felt we reached that pinnacle in that scene, and we wanted it to be there. But it is really interesting when you're talking about that, that even y' all might have wanted that shot, right? But, oh, no, it doesn't match because you're looking this way instead of that way, or this, you know, this. Or something dropped or the sound is. I Mean, there's so many. Right, Rob? I mean, as directors and editors ourselves, there's so many elements that go in to what performance. It's not just sometimes pure performance. It's all these other elements that go into the decision.

[Rob Morrow]

But I'll also add something interesting, Janine, to that, that. I remember having an argument with Josh about a scene. And we went outside and we were talking. We were arguing about it, and I just kept saying, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. And he just said. He just yelled over me. It doesn't have to feel right. And I remember. I'll never forget it, because he was right, you know, because sometimes. Because when you get in the editing room, especially when I edit myself, you know, I've edited myself a lot, and. And you think something is coming off of one way. You know, so often I will go. I will leave a scene thinking it was terrible, and then I'll look at it, the dailies, and I'll be like, oh, my God, it's great. Or vice versa. I'll think it's the greatest thing in the history of anything, and it's terrible. You know, so. So it doesn't. What you're feeling doesn't necessarily always translate. And if it doesn't feel good. And I think that's the thing about being a professional is you have to kind of keep going through, you know, because it will. Something is coming out that you don't. And if you. And, like, you and I are such present actors that even if we're feeling terrible, that's what's being conveyed as the subtext of the scene.

[Janine Fleischman]

My acting coach used to always say that too. Like, oh, I feel really tired today. Well, maybe your character would feel tired. But I just have to say, I remember one of those epic arguments that you and Josh had, and one of the things that came out of that, and I don't know how I heard it or whatever, how it got back to me, but Josh said, choose your battles. And I've never forgotten that. That's really, really great, great advice. In life in general and especially, it's like, choose your battles.

[Rob Morrow]

You're right.

[Tom Moore]

In defense of editors, 99% of the time, we do put the best performance in and we find a way to make it work. Because at some point, the director, the producers, maybe you guys, somebody's gonna bring it up, and you do want the best performance in there. So you find, put the square peg in the round.

[Rob Morrow]

Editors amaze me. I am very rarely. I may be disappointed with A moment here and there. But I'm very rarely walking away from something. Either I'm in or I've directed or whatever, thinking the editors fucked it up. It's very rare. Editors are heroes. They are. They are the heroes of the business. I mean, they really are.

[Tom Moore]

Well, I was gonna say, if you don't see it, the editor's done a good job. And that's kind of, you know, it's kind of like your alignment in football. The last thought I wanted to leave with everybody is, I remember it was, you know, after the show had become a success. I was in editing room with Josh. It was kind of just me and him and he had at the time we had these three quarter inch machines and he would control that. And at one point he just stops and he goes, you know Tom, it's all downhill hill from here. And it was not a cynical comment. It was just one of those moments like even my 35 year old self thought, hmm, I may never have another series quite as charming as this.

[Rob Morrow]

And so many people say that, that come on the show.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, he was a guarded person. You know, he had to be. He was the boss. But you know, he left. He let his, you know, motion show in that. And I'll never forget that moment.

[Janine Fleischman]

So Joshua Brand said that.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah, he says, you know, Tom, at what episode? Well, probably, you know, after the show, had experienced a lot of success, he was very comfortable. You know, the hand wringing kind of, especially on a show of that success, the hand wringing stopped and you know, just a kind of an unguarded moment.

[Janine Fleischman]

All downhill from here. Yeah, I will say that's true. So far, my life, I mean, I've got my musical that I'm working on now and I have a lot of. But from all the other work I've done, it's been really great people, great experiences. But Northern Exposure is by far still my favorite. And Tom, I just want to give you a round of applause because you know, you did a fantastic job editing and thank you for those nuances. Because it is the nuances that mean like a little eyebrow lift or as you said, you were watching the eye and. Or the reactions of the off camera listening. It's golden, those things. And Northern Exposure was a golden show and your editing and your editing team were a big part of that.

[Rob Morrow]

And we'd love to have you back again. So hopefully we'll give you a call because you have great stories and I could tell we could go on for hours here.

[Tom Moore]

So thank you for doing this before you know, in 10 years, a lot of us might not be around and. Or remember anything. So it's just lovely that you've done it is.

[Janine Fleischman]

That's what I tell Rob. It's like preserving the show for posterity and to be able to hear this.

[Tom Moore]

Yeah. Especially for my kids and grandkids. My parents both died the last couple years, and there's so many questions I want to ask them, even about their career. And to have something like this, at least they get a sense of, like, oh, Grandpa worked on this terrific show. So thank you very much.

[Janine Fleischman]

Oh, thank you. It was like Julie Andrews. Her grandkids never got to hear her sing My Fair Lady. Lady.

[Rob Morrow]

Not. Not My Fair Lady.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yeah. Well, because she starred in My Fair lady on Broadway. She did, didn't she? Am I getting that right?

[Rob Morrow]

I mean, Sound of Music. I know.

[Janine Fleischman]

No, no, My Fair lady she did on Broadway, but she didn't get to do the movie because they hired, you know, Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn. And so she regrets grandchildren never got to hear her sing. By the way, my father saw Julie Andrews.

[Rob Morrow]

She must have done the Broadway Soundtra contract.

[Janine Fleischman]

Well, I don't know. I guess they didn't back then or something. Maybe it doesn't exist anymore anyway, who knows? But anyway, I'll have to look into my facts before I bring stories up again, I guess a little bit, but. Because that's a good point, but she wasn't talking like it could be heard or maybe she meant performed. Who knows?

[Rob Morrow]

She didn't get. They didn't get to see her perform it.

[Janine Fleischman]

Maybe that was it.

[Rob Morrow]

Right.

[Janine Fleischman]

Yes, that makes sense. Thank you.

[Rob Morrow]

That makes sense.

[Janine Fleischman]

Thank you, Rob, for that clarity. All right, well, we thank you, Tom Moore, for this great, great show. We thank all of you for listening. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. And Rob Morrow, we're signing off. And so from oconnell and Fleischman, we'll see you next time.

[Rob Morrow]

It should be Fleischman o', Connell, I think.

[Janine Fleischman]

In your dreams, Fleischman. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.

[Wil Wheaton]

Hi, I'm Wil Wheaton, and I am so excited to tell you about my new podcast series, It's Story Time with Will Wheaton. You may recognize my name from my acting work in television shows like the Big Bang Theory, Leverage, and Star the Next Generation, or from a movie called Stand By Me. You may recognize my voice from one of the hundreds of audiobooks I've narrated, including number one New York Times bestseller Ready Player one, John Scalzi's award winning Collapsing Empire trilogy or even my own best selling memoir, Still Just a Game Geek When I'm not reading stories, I am listening to stories. And I was a massive fan of my friend and mentor LeVar Burton's podcast, LeVar Burton Reads. When he finished his final season, I realized how much I missed it, so I asked him if I could take a shot at picking up where he left off and to my delight he gave me his blessing and I got started. It's been a long time time, a lot of work and absolutely worth it to bring you incredible stories that I love, pulled from the pages of Uncanny Magazine, Lightspeed on Spec, and others. You're going to meet authors you don't yet know you love, including some who are being narrated for the very first time. I will take you with me as we travel together through time. I will take you to meet some gods. We will watch people fall in and and out of love and more. It's Story Time with Wil Wheaton is available wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you'll join me.