← Northern Disclosure
Northern Disclosure
S4E3: "Nothing's Perfect" with Rob Morrow and Janine Turner
00:56:09
Rob and Janine explore themes of imperfection, destiny, and the beauty of life's unpredictability. Don't miss this engaging discussion that captures the essence of "Northern Exposure".
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Inside the Art House. The go to destination for cinephiles and the number one place for art house cinema and filmmaker conversations. Each week, today's most visionary filmmakers pull back the curtain on the art of cinema. Sharing how stories are made and why they matter. Hosted by Greg Laemmle of the legendary Laemmle Theaters, a family that shaped the movie business for over a century. And Raphael Sparge, actor and award winning director. Together they explore the creative process, the struggles, the triumphs behind the camera, and the bold ideas shaping film today. From indie debuts, documentaries, to international art house cinema, Inside the Art House dives deep into a world where passion meets craft and where the love of film lives loud. Inside the Art House conversations with today's most visionary filmmakers.
- [00:50]
B
Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. Hello Northern Disclosure fans. Welcome back. We're happy you're with us on this fine, fine, late, early spring day. I have the beautiful Janine Turner right there, my co host. And we are. It's just her and I again, which we don't mind because we like talking to each other. So we're gonna, we're gonna go into this, this episode and as always, you know, hit your subscribe button and send us your comments. We are talking about, I think we're talking about possibly doing it on May 1st and where y' all can post questions to us and we will respond. So we will publicize that as it gets closer, but keep that in mind and write your questions down and we look forward to hearing from you. I, I read a lot of the comments on YouTube and I'm always fascinated with what people have to say and grateful that you're here. So how you doing there today, Janine?
- [02:03]
A
I'm fine and dandy in the great state of Texas. Just everything's blooming here. So I feel like Audrey Hepburn. The calla lilies are in bloom again.
- [02:13]
B
Not Audrey. Katharine Hepburn.
- [02:15]
A
Did I say Audrey?
- [02:16]
B
You did Audrey. You did.
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A
That's frightening. Okay. No, it's all right.
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B
I mean, it's the same last name.
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A
Oh, my God. Okay. Katharine Hepburn. The calla lilies are in bloom again. I have wisteria.
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B
That's a pretty good impression. You could play Katharine Hepburn maybe.
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A
Well, you know, they often said Maggie o' Connell was supposed to be sort of like Katharine Hepburn.
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B
Oh, I get that. I get that for sure.
- [02:39]
A
Yeah. But nevertheless, my wisteria is in bloom. Those are the purple flowers that look like grapes. And my. Everything's green like Easter egg basket grass. And I think I'm Gonna have a big huge Angus that's getting ready to give birth any minute, which is frightening on 290 acres. Cause I'm like, where is she gonna go? And then how am I gonna find her and make sure the she and the baby are okay? And we've had to pull. Cal. I went, I mowed the lawn this morning and I ran over. Get this. I mowed the lawn this morning and I ran over a complete bag of trash.
- [03:11]
B
Oh, from what?
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A
My mother's friend. My mother's friend is coming. My 89 year old mother's friend is coming. Like, oh my gosh. I have to quickly go mow the lawn.
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B
Wait, where'd the bag of trash come from?
- [03:19]
A
It was a trash bag that I had out in the front that I was gonna take to the four wheeler that I was gonna take to the gate. And I ran over it and. Cause I just kind of barely clipped it, I guess on the sidewalk with my zero turn lawnmower. It went all over the lawn. I'm like, oh my God. So I'm out there picking up little
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B
P. You need to have a film crew follow you around so we can see what you do on that.
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A
Nothing with my chainsaw. That's why I can't ever keep nails, by the way, because it's just really not going to happen. But anywho, my roses are blooming. I have like roses all over the place. It's a really beautiful time of year. I've decided. I really like spring. I really like spring. I like the messy.
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B
Spring is great. Absolutely.
- [03:59]
A
Rebirth. And I go around thinking all the trees. Hello, trees. Thank you for coming back. Hello, Wisteria. I know you think I'm nuts.
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B
No, I don't. I mean, no more nuts than I already thought you. But I don't have. That would not. That would not elevate your status by that criteria.
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A
Doesn't surprise you. I'm out there talking to the trees.
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B
Hello, pecan trees as nuts. I'm right up there with you. As nuts as you are, I am as well. So we're too nuts?
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A
I mean, I talk to the birds. I say, oh, I hear your lovely tune. Thank you so much.
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B
Good.
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A
Oh my God. Okay.
- [04:36]
B
Why not?
- [04:38]
A
Well, we're talking about the show. Nothing's perfect. And I just have to show. It's episode. It's season four, Episode three. And I just wanna say I watch. I lay awake at night. I lie awake at night. I don't know. Lie awake, I think. And you would know Rob with the great. You know Your words, it's lie awake at night, right?
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B
I believe so.
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A
Okay. Lie. And. Yeah, okay, I have my theory about the word lie, but I won't go into it right now. So I lie awake at night, and I was lying awake at night, and I watched a documentary in Linda Ronstadt.
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B
Oh, yeah, I heard that was good. Oh, my God, I love it.
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A
It's a good documentary. And then I said this a really cool thing, because you can always learn something from something. Perfection is boring.
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B
Perfection is boring. Well, that's what this show kind of deals with.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Why is that what Linda said?
- [05:21]
A
I don't know if it was Linda or somebody in Linda's life, but I'm so sorry. I don't know. But it was. Perfection is boring. And I thought, wow, that's. That's really cool. And that helps because all of us tend to be sort of. Or artists, where everything's sort of wild and unstructured, but we also want per. At the same time.
- [05:38]
B
I always have to remind myself of that. Like, it's also, you know, don't let the. The great be the enemy of the good. You know, like, you know, it doesn't have to be. It's. It's. It's the process, and it's hard. It's hard to keep that in mind because, you know. Yeah, there's always flaws, and I guess, you know, it's funny. There's a. You know, I play music a lot. I spend a lot of my day playing music, and I'm always trying to get better and better, but I didn't get really ser about it until about 15, 20 years ago, where I, you know, really work at technique and theory and all that. And I went and saw this guy, Jeff Tweedy, who is, you know, is just a great musician, and he's just an amazing musician who I followed and loved. And I saw him in a little venue recently, and he was playing his guitar, and he was making what we call buzzing his. He kept buzzing the strings a lot, so he was missing the kind of fret in the right place, and the string would buzz for second. But he was so dedicated to going through that. It didn't matter. It didn't have any effect on any of us in the audience. Whenever he buzzed it, it didn't matter because it didn't matter to him. And I have to try to keep that in mind in all aspects of
- [06:55]
A
life, all aspects is true, because I'm with that as a human being. I'm like, oh, my God, was I a good human being? Today, and where did I fail? I tend to get a little neuronic about that, but it's so true as an artist, because when I was doing, you know, I'm working. You have. It's funny, Rob, because you have your music and you're a poet with your music. And I have my music, which is taking the form of my Broadway show, Belva, that I'm working on. And when I did my two readings in New York City, and now I'm doing my big kind of glorified community performance of it in October in Texas. But these Tony Award winning singers would put their hands on my face and they would say, remember. Cause I'm a singer, I'm an actor who sings. I'm not a singer who acts. Right. And I have to sing like 15, 16 songs. And I hadn't done it since I was 17 years, 18 years old. They say, remember, it's not the voice that matters, it's the emotion.
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B
Yeah, that's so good to keep in mind.
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A
It's the emotion. It's because you can listen to perfectly beautiful voices and they don't move anybody. So people don't care about perfection. They care about being moved. And I think that's what this show's about too. Right.
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B
It's why a lot of operatic voices sometimes leave me cold. I mean, because they don't. I don't sense the emotion behind the technique because you need such technique to sing those pieces.
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A
But it's so hard when you go out there because you don't want to have a buzz. And as an actor, I'm like, oh, I don't want to hit a wrong note. You know, I don't want to fail.
- [08:24]
B
But you know, what they say is, you know, the pros, just like in golf, you know, the pro, the pro musician makes a zillion mistakes, but they. They incorporate it. They tell you if you make a mistake, do it again because it just sounds like it's intentional. And in golf, they say the pros and the amateurs make the same amount of mistakes. It's just that the pros know how to come back from them.
- [08:49]
A
Well, it seems like in golf it'd be pretty specific, though. Like you either got to make the hole or you don't.
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B
No, but what happens is they make. They all make mistakes. But the pro can get out of it. You know, like you hit the shot and goes in the woods. That's like the. You know, then I end up with a 10, whereas the Pro ends up with a par because he knows how to get out of it. He knows how to recover from a mistake.
- [09:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I guess goes to relaxation, which I think is key as an actor, is relaxation, because it's. Let's just say, remember that Jack Nicholson, I told that story, he thought he would cry in one scene and he didn't cry in that scene, and then he cried later. So it's just like stay relaxed and let each. And you know, you used to say to me, this is a behind the scenes thing. You and I would finish a scene together and of course we had to move on or we didn't have time to do another one. And I would look at you and I'd say, oh, I don't know, you know, I don't know, I don't know. And you would, you would say that kind of what you're saying today, it's like, look, our. Our bottom line work, we know is good. You know what I mean? It might not be great, but it's good. And let's just trust it. So learning whether. Whether you're an actor or a carpenter or, you know, at McDonald's or wherever, I guess it's just learning to just accept the imperfections of life and to see the beauty in them, because that's what the show. And I think that our society's gotten a little callous. You know, it's like you have to be perfect or whatever instead of saying you're an imperfect human being, but you have a good heart. And so we're going to move on. And that's the way Maurice was with his clock. You know, he learned to appreciate the beauty, that it wasn't perfect.
- [10:21]
B
Well, let's set up the episode.
- [10:23]
A
Yes, let's do that.
- [10:24]
B
So it's called Nothing Perfect, as you said. It was directed by Nick Mark once again.
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A
Once again, he directed a lot of shows.
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B
He did. I think it was nine, I believe
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A
he said, I don't know, he might be the most.
- [10:36]
B
Yeah, he's up there. And then we have Diane Froloff and Andy Schneider again. Always never seem, you know, with the perspective now of time and looking at them with. With what do they say from 30,000ft or whatever. The, the variety of their writing, you know, the stories that they told. They are so talented. I mean, it's just amazing what they. Where they were able to go and create these different stories.
- [11:02]
A
I apprec it more now in my 60s than I did then because then I didn't know anything about really Einstein or evolution or PI. I knew PI R squared, of course, from school. But. But just. I can appreciate now so much more the, the numbers and I. Well, I won't get ahead of myself. I'll hold my thought. But. But I think their writing is phenomenal.
- [11:24]
B
Absolutely. If you've got Spring fever, Lowe's has the cure. During Spring Fest, make your landscape stand out with three free bags of Miracle Gro 3/4 cubic foot garden soil when you buy three plus get up to 40% off. Select major appliances to keep clothes, food and dishes fresh all season long. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 422, while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See lowe's.com for details. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Here's the synopsis of the episode as written in IMDb. Maurice ponders the influence of time when he buys a unique but very expensive mechanical clock, which he's disappointed to learn looks wonderful but doesn't keep perfect time. Meanwhile, Chris Stevens becomes an influence of a different kind when he runs over a dog and falls in love with the owner, a pet loving mathematician. He fears the relationship may not last though, when he also kills one of her birds and finds himself allergic to cats. And, and just. It's so interesting that it's you and I here alone on this podcast and we were. I was in like one scene and you weren't in the episode, so.
- [12:54]
A
Right. I wasn't an episode at all. I guess I was out riding my horse.
- [12:58]
B
It's interesting to see the show when we're not there. You know, I miss us. I don't know if it's just me because I'm my ego. But like, I loved, first of all, I mean, I love the storyline, I love the episode. I love Barry and I always love Corbett and you know, but I do miss the presence of Joel and you know, I'm like, where are they? What are they doing? You know?
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A
Well, we were kind of the pop and the sizzle.
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B
There you go.
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A
Okay, a little bit of the pop. But I thought, once again, hats off to Andy and Diane. The philosophical, scientific, soul searching aspect of the show I have started to believe as I'm 63 and I lie in bed at night and watch every documentary on the world possible and all 17 seasons of ancient aliens. Have you seen it yet, Rob? It's really good.
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B
I haven't, I haven't. I know you told me to.
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A
It's not, it's not one of those silly ones. It's actually very, you know, it's philosophical and talks all the religions of the world and it's archaeological. It's pretty fascinating.
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B
So you believe in aliens for sure. You believe there are other here?
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A
For sure?
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B
Yeah. Okay.
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A
They're here for sure.
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B
I kind of am being swayed. I want to believe and, you know, some of the stuff that's been coming out and supposedly more coming out is I'm fascinated by. So we'll see.
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A
Well, why would. Why would we think that we're alone in this vast universe?
- [14:28]
B
It's.
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A
It's. Yeah. Well, I don't know. From everything I watch and see, I think and hear, and now that we have Air Force pilots coming forward and saying what they've seen and it's. But, but. But the whole. What I find really interesting because I watch a lot about Einstein is the math. And also the other movie, the big movie that came out a couple years ago when they all. The Academy, Oppenheimer. Right. The math that goes behind these things and that they talk about the fact that in every flower, you know, every bird, everything that has been created on this Earth is either like a circle or a triangle or whatever.
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B
The Fibonacci sequence. What it's called the Fibonacci sequence.
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A
Oh, talk more about that, Rob.
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B
It's the spiral that you're referring to that's in everything.
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A
Basically, everything evolves to numbers eventually. It's all about numbers. And. And so when she was fascinated, the actress with PI, and they were over the computer screen talking about it. Alec Baldwin, by the way. You know, I was engaged to Alec, and Alec and I took a class at UCLA one year when computers were becoming a thing. And it was a summer, summer class. And we walked into the class and we thought we were gonna learn how to handle a computer. Instead, it was all behind the scenes of the sequences 0, 0, 0, 1 and 1, 0, 0, 0 and 0. And he and I looked at each other.
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B
We were like in a coding class. All right, here's the Fibon sequence, the Fibonacci F, I, B, O, N, A, C, C, I. Fibonacci sequence. It's a series of numbers where each number is the sum of the two preceding ones, typically starting with 0 and 1. So ultimately, it creates a growth pattern often found in nature, such as pine, corn, sunflowers, and flower petals, while closely relating to the golden ratio. Know it's pretty interesting.
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A
That's really interesting. I'm going to research.
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B
It's what you're talking about.
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A
Well, you know, after my father died, I became really interested in all this. So my father died in 2014. So I'd say for the past 12 years, I've just been fascinated with all these elements of Fibonacci sequence. And it's in sunflowers, in everything. How is it in a sunflower? Like, what does that mean? Zero?
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B
Well, because it's a spiral. It's a. Basically, it's a pattern that's. That's. That. That creates the equation. And you can see it in everything. You know, in galaxies, in eddies, you know, whirlpools. You see it in everything.
- [16:56]
A
Well, and that's why I thought this was so interesting, because it's. It's like Einstein, his theory of relativity was backed up by numbers. And so more and more, I've been thinking numbers lead us to God. And so that's really kind of my thought, because the numbers explain the universe. It's all goes back to numbers. All these theories, whatever it is. It's all based on numbers. And then. So when they are standing over the compute. Chris in the morning and the actress, that's his girlfriend, he was. You know, both supporting actors were terrific.
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B
I thought, that's Wendell. Wendell Meldrum plays Amy Lochner. Mark Pellegrino played the German. German clock who also did my show Numbers. Speaking of numbers.
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A
Oh, cool. Yeah, he's excellent. They were both.
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B
You should watch that show if you like numbers. We did all. That was all. The whole thing.
- [17:41]
A
I know I used to watch it. I'll have to watch it again now with my newfound, you know, searching for wherever my father is out there for 12 years. Watch again. But they're standing over the computer and they're talking about PI. And then they said it. They said it, Chris. They said it. I'm searching. I'm searching. And he says, searching for God. And I'm like, yes, that's it.
- [18:05]
B
So we're talking about. Just for the audience. So they. Because, a. We're both lame mathematicians, so we're probably not making much sense, as we should, but. But we are both fascinated by this. And PI is referenced in the. Because it's what Amy, the woman that Chris Steven falls in love with, is researching. She's trying to understand it. And PI is. I wrote this down. It is a universal constant that appears to bridge the gap between the finite physical objects and the infinite nature of mathematics. Right. So it's between the physical and the spiritual, if you will. Carl Sagan suggests that it's a message from the creator, that a message from the creator might be buried in its digits, which is what this character Amy is getting at. And it's fascinating that Chris Stevens, Corbett Falls in love with her. So head over heels, and it's so unexplained. He's just enamored with something. And Chris is a seeker, you know, so he senses a simpatico in them. And it's so sweet the way he's just enamored of her.
- [19:16]
A
It really was. But then again, what. Northern Exposure. It's so great about the writing is the juxtaposition and the conflict. You know, there's always the conflict. So there he is very, very attracted to her. But he's allergic.
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B
Yeah, to her animals. She's got pets. And he kills. He meets her because, as he said, he kills her dog by accident. And then they start to get together and she asks him to stay in his house. Stay in her house to sit for the cats and the birds that she has. And he feeds one of the birds and the bird dies. And he doesn't know what to do, so he replaces the bird and tries to act like it didn't happen. But that gets to the point of the show. And I think what you were alluding to at the top of our show, Jeanine, was this notion of perfection. It's like you can't. You know, perfection is. Is. Is such an impossibility. You know, there's no. There's no such thing. And. And. And Chris is kind of trapped by his philosophy, which, you know, if you're not careful, you know, you can get so intellectual in philosophy that you lose the forest for the trees. Right. You know, he asked, is the. You know, the. The ultimate question, is the future carved in stone or do we create our own destiny? And that's what Chris asks now.
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A
That's the big question, right? How much of our will, how much do we define our destiny? Or how much is it predestined?
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B
What do you think?
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A
I struggle with that because in a way, there seems to be. I think it's predestined. God knows every hair on your head. You know, I've had certain. You know, I'm not a Catholic, but I had a priest once say to me that we're predestined. And we're told before we come here that this is gonna be your life, and do you accept it? And so there's like a predestination. But then again, you know, you pray and you won't pray. You hope prayer will change things so that, you know, I don't know. It's very confusing. I don't know that I have the answer for that. Because if everything's predestined why would you even bother to pray?
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B
I mean, that's a whole. You're right. It's a whole other conversation above my pay grade, no doubt. But I do. But I do think we would just
- [21:35]
A
be speculating on that one. But I think about it a lot. I think about it, too. And I think about being a better person and praying and connection with God and how that can change outcomes. And we know miracles happen, so the fact that miracles happen would lead me to believe that it's not predestined. Maybe generally, but not specifically. So it's like, here's your path. Let's see what you do with it.
- [22:01]
B
Maybe, you know, I mean, there's so much, you know, that we don't understand. But. But I just want to point out, you know, because along, you know, you know, Chris again poses. Is. Is life random or systematic? But if you. If, you know, in the episode, in order to pay off his karmic debt for killing her bird, she suggests he makes a sacrifice. And he sacrifices his beloved motorcycle, pushes it off a cliff. Right, but do you remember what he says in that? Or what she says to him in that moment?
- [22:35]
A
She goes, do you feel better? And he's like, I don't know that.
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B
No. Yes, she says that. But no, it's the specific thing that I think you'll. She says to him, referencing another of his flings. She says, it's not the fling itself, it's how you feel about the fling.
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A
Did she say fling?
- [22:51]
B
Yep. About the motorcycle.
- [22:53]
A
Okay, I didn't even catch that because
- [22:55]
B
they're flinging his motorcycle off a cliff. And it's like.
- [22:57]
A
She said fling. She actually said, literally said.
- [23:00]
B
I wrote it down. She said, it's not the FL itself, it's how you feel about the fling, you know, and in the previous episode where we have the. The. The.
- [23:07]
A
Where it's not what you fling, it's the fling itself.
- [23:10]
B
Right. And so it kind of comes back again, you know. And it's interesting, the metaphors that they create Diane and Andy, because they have, you know, if. If, you know, if their question is. If the question in the episode is life systematic or random, they use a clock, you know, a finely tuned, beautiful clock, you know, this mechanistic instrument to use for Maurice to discover that it's not precision and perfection is not necessary when you have beauty. What's more important, beauty or perfection?
- [23:48]
A
I just love this idea of not having to be perfect. I'm really glad about that, that we have a forgiving God. But I thought that scene the actor that portrayed the Clockmaster was. Was terrific.
- [24:01]
B
That's Mark Pellegrino.
- [24:02]
A
Mark Pellegrino. Here. Here is a. A technical person that you would expect to be. Look completely different. And this is what Northern Exposure did so well. Everybody is the opposite of. Of what you would think they would be. And here's this Gross, Grosse Pointe, Michigan, socialite who's now an Alaskan bush pilot. It's. It's just that whole ying and yang thing. But here he is in that leather jacket and the punk rock that he loves so much. And. But my. Again, the lines they write that. That Fleischman had. You say some, but I say them, but Maurice really says them. But he called him an Aryan cabbage head. Did you catch that?
- [24:45]
B
Yeah.
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A
Aryan cabbage. Cabbage head.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah. It's a fascinating character.
- [24:54]
A
He wasn't going to let him have the clock if he couldn't appreciate that it wasn't perfect. And isn't that a message about everything, how much people we need to appreciate each other, that, you know, we're not perfect human beings? Because there's just this perfection thing out there in society. You can't ever say anything wrong, do anything wrong, have a wrong emotion, or you're just, like, annihilated. This perfection situation that we're putting on each other out in social media and whatnot is really tough because we can't live up to it. So I kind of really adore the message of this show.
- [25:28]
B
Yeah, it's also sweet. I love the ending with Ed's filming, making one of his films, and they show the footage at the end, and it's just so. Got it. You know, I always say it, but the endings, you know, even if I'm not. If the sum of its parts aren't getting me that excited, the ending, the whole of these episodes really pull me in. And this was another one of those that just felt very poignant.
- [25:53]
A
I started to tear up, and I think it was. I was very moved. Oh, oh, oh. There's another line I loved. I wrote down two lines, but I was very moved at the end when he looks at the clock and accepts the clock for being what it is somewhere. I teared up a little bit. I thought it was very moving. But he asked him, he said, okay, get this, Rob. Because we were in our 20s on northern exposure. Well, we bridged the 20s to the 30s. But he says, how old are you? He says, I'm 26 or whatever. And he goes, oh, you're in your 20s. You're immortal. And I find that I deal with that with my daughter all the time. You know, there's just this lack of. And I'm sure we were the same way in our 20s. We lack this perspective of mortality. And I always say, until you've lost a parent, you can't be a member of the parent, you know, lost a parent club because you just really can't quite fasten, you know, focus on what it's like. But to be in the 20s when we thought we were immortal, remember that for sure?
- [26:51]
B
For sure, yeah. The concept of death.
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A
You think you're immortal, but.
- [26:56]
B
But I think about death all the time now. I contemplate my own death in a positive way, you know, so that it doesn't feel too scary as I get closer to it. I like. I like. I don't. I don't have a problem with death. I have a problem with pain, but I don't have a problem with death.
- [27:12]
A
Oh, that's another thing. That's another thing they said in the Linda Ronstadt documentary. They said, let me try to get this right. It's not life beyond death that matters. It's life before death.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
- [27:28]
A
Yeah. And it's not mad. It wasn't the word matters, but it was just like, you don't need to worry about life after. It was probably more worry. You don't need to worry about life after death. It's life before death. And I thought, oh, that's really cool. In other words, how are we going to live our life here? And then again, Maurice talks about that in this show as far as legacy and the impact. And I think when we get older, we think about that so much, like, what kind of. What sort of legacy am I leaving? What. What kind of difference did I make in life? I've always been very, very focused on that, you know, how to make a difference. But Maurice says, you know, when I die, I'll just be a footnote in the Smithsonian.
- [28:05]
B
Right.
- [28:06]
A
Catch that, right?
- [28:07]
B
Yeah, I did.
- [28:09]
A
So it's like, I think I said that right line correctly.
- [28:12]
B
You did. That's exactly what he said. But what do you take from that?
- [28:17]
A
Well, I take from that we all. Hell, I know we could look at it two different ways. I wrote that book of poems, and you did A for me, which is so nice. But one of them, I sort of contemplated this, and I've heard about this, too. Most people do not remember their grandmothers or their great grandmothers and grandfather's names. Wow. That'll humble you. Humble you, right?
- [28:38]
B
Not your grandmothers. That's why I can see your great grandmother.
- [28:41]
A
Great grandmothers, Great grandmothers, right. So it's like if you go back to beyond two or three generations, nobody even knows their names, right? So that's pretty humbling. So all I can think about is, is, you know, how. How do we want to live our life and make. And then the impact on a grand scale or is the impact just being really. I hearken back to a pastor that was, have I talked about going through the supermarket line? Did I tell this story?
- [29:10]
B
I don't know.
- [29:11]
A
And she was being really, really, really difficult with everybody and everybody was really mad at her. And then he walked up and looked at her and said, are you having a bad day? You know, he just looked at her, soul to soul, are you having a bad day? And she started crying. Yes. My husband left me and I'm like a two year old kid, so. So it's like, is it on a grand scheme how we touch each other's lives or is it just being really conscious that when you look at someone, you look at their imperfections and you say, I see your soul, whether it's at the McDonald's line or the grocery store line or wherever it may be, those type of impacts I tend to think might be more impactful than being a superstar or something. And of course, CS Lewis said that. How do you put it? The. The self righteous prig in the front of the pew is more damned to hell than the prostitute.
- [30:03]
B
Here's a funny anecdote that happened to my wife, Deben, a couple years ago. Debonair, the one and only. She was driving in LA and there's, you know, road rage in LA is a common occurrence. And she was, someone kind of cut her off and she just gave him the finger. Like, you know, really pissed off because she got angry and she gave him the finger. And when she was, you know, and she's not an angry. If you look at her, she's not like an angry person. And so for her to get that raged, it just seems so disproportionate to what happened. Nobody died. And so the guy pulls up next to her at the next light and he's like, because it was back when. Or she's got an old car that has rolled down windows and he was like, roll down, roll down your window, roll down your window. And she's like, I'm not this crazy guy, I'm not gonna roll down my window. And then the next light he's again, rol, roll down your window. And finally she Said, oh, go. Okay. What, what do you want? And he's like, you're better than that. And he's. And she's like, what? And he said, you're better than that. And then he drove away. And she just was like, oh, he's so right. You know, it was such a great moment.
- [31:12]
A
Wow. Wow. Do you know, I pulled. That's a great story. You're better than that. That's a great. And you know, I, I walked in, I was going through a really difficult time and I was at the gas station and I was getting gas and I got out and I had this kind of hat that I'd just. In New York City on. This kid got out and he's at the, the, he's in the pump in front of me, right? And he says, I like your hat. I said, thank you. He goes, where'd you get it? I said, well, I actually got it in New York City. Goes, it's a really cool hat. I said, thanks. And I'm just thinking, how much do I really talk to this guy? I don't know, you know, And I'm getting my. And he looks at me and he says, just, oh, I want you to know God loves you, right? God loves you and he sees you and he. He's with you and he sees you and God loves you. And I was like, how cool. You know, it was just like I really needed to hear that at that time. It just changed my whole trajectory. So those are cool stories, the people that they're. But that's the story I'm making. We can have an impact on each other one person at a time. And it doesn't have to be on this big, huge grand scale. Whether you're getting started with a new business or you're looking to scale up, Shopify gives you the tools you need to build your brand with confidence. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of e commerce in the US their built in AI tools help you with product descriptions, headlines and even product photo enhancement. Like having a full creative team in your corner when you're ready to grow. Shopify helps you find customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. And the iconic Shop Shop pay button at checkout helps you boost conversions and turn browsers into buyers. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com northern. Go to shopify.com northern that's shopify.com northern.
- [33:31]
B
Busch Light is cold and smooth and waiting for you to get out there. Everyone knows that the classic taste of Busch Light is brewed for the outdoors. So before cracking open your next adventure, grab a case of Busch Light because nature is even cooler. With Bush Light in your cooler, head for the mountains of Bush Busch. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch Buschlight Beer St. Louis, Missouri what if you could use your home to build more home? It's possible with a SOFI home equity loan. A home equity loan allows you to leverage your home's equity at a typically lower rate than a personal loan with low fixed monthly payments and all without increasing your mortgage rate. Whether it's a new bathroom, updated kitchen deck, or more, your home could help grow its view. Your rate@sofi.com homeupgrade today, mortgages originated by SoFi bank and a member FDIC NMLS number 696891. Terms and conditions apply. Equal Housing lender. So what else about Andy? Do you have any lines? Favorite lines you wrote down?
- [34:40]
A
I wrote the year 20. Oh, you. You're immortal, you know. And he talks about going up and speaking face. And then he. And then the Aaron Cabbage headline. I wrote everything about the pie R square. You know, PI.
- [34:50]
B
You ever see the movie PI by Darren Aronofsky?
- [34:53]
A
No.
- [34:54]
B
Oh, you should watch that. Oh, my God. It's a whole movie based on the premise of PI. It's a. It's a thriller, but it's. It, you know, it established Darren as, you know, one of the great directors. It's very, very worth watching. He made it when he was really young.
- [35:09]
A
Pie. P, I, E. Pie.
- [35:11]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:12]
A
And PI is 3.14, isn't it?
- [35:14]
B
I believe so.
- [35:16]
A
Okay. I don't want to sound really like I put myself out there by trying to remember what I learned when I was 12.
- [35:27]
B
Yeah, it's funny. I'm a disaster in math. Well, I was a disaster in every subject in school, but math in particular. I learned just enough to be able to function in the world. But. But I do have that kind of spiritual relationship that we were getting at earlier to math. And because I play music, which is all math, you know, somehow I feel like that probably in the depths of my being, I'm probably a closet mathematician.
- [35:59]
A
Well, everything comes back to numbers. I think that's the fascination.
- [36:03]
B
That was the promotional quote for numbers. Everything's numbers.
- [36:08]
A
Oh, really?
- [36:09]
B
Because they solved every crime using math, which is not. You know, they. Do they. I mean, it's. Now everything's Math. Because algorithms. It's all. Algorithms are all math.
- [36:19]
A
That's scary to me. When you're on Instagram or something, and you click on one about cats, and then before the 10 seconds is over, everything floods. That's. Next is about cats. I'm like, how do they figure out that out so quickly? It's pretty scary. Cause it's a real manipulation of our minds.
- [36:36]
B
No, it's. It's very destructive.
- [36:38]
A
I was touched by. I had to say, I got a kick out of Marilyn. Not Marilyn. Shelley and Holling with their. You know, with their little glass of wine. And. And he was like, it tastes like Robin.
- [36:52]
B
Right?
- [36:54]
A
And then. And then they're having. He goes. Maurice gets all upset. Well, then. Ate a peanut, you know, or something.
- [37:00]
B
And there's micro expression. This little micro expression before he says. Get that. You know, you just see him. It's like, what do I. You know, he's just in the middle of nowhere, and he has no sophistication around him. And he's so disappointed.
- [37:13]
A
He did such a. He was so good, too. We talk about column. But John. But Barry Corbin was. Was also just impeccable in his performance. But I. And then she and Hollying, they're having a little sip, and then she's like, oh, okay. You know, and then she walks away and she feeds him a peanut at pecan. And I used to tell Cynthia, and of course, I feel this way about Shelly. Sometimes I just want to be Shelly. Sometimes I just.
- [37:37]
B
You mean in life. Just because she's so easygoing?
- [37:40]
A
Yeah, it's just like everything's, like, okay.
- [37:43]
B
Yeah, you're right. She never resists. She always seems okay.
- [37:47]
A
There is nothing about my personality that's like that.
- [37:50]
B
But how about. By the way, Shelly. Cynthia was like that as well. You know, we've talked about this before. She. I can't. You know, if. If she was upset maybe three times in the. In the run of that whole series, you know, in her daily life, that would be a lot like. She just was always easygoing and never problematic and never having a bad day, or so it seemed.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah. I can't say that about myself or.
- [38:16]
B
Me neither. And so. But it's how we. It's funny how we get cast, you know? You know, when I watch, you know, Fleischman now and see, you know, I was so bent on not being Fleischman, but he's so much a part of who I am, you know, Like, I don't know if I ever told you this story, but shortly after we finished the Show, I went to Alaska. I was trying to make IMAX movie about the Iditarod. And so I had been there. I had gone as a guest of the Alaska to watch the Iditarod a couple times. And so I went back to do research on my own after the show was over. And what did I have to wear was all my stuff from the show. My sorrel boots and my Eddie Bauer jacket. And so I brought all that because I was going along the trail, which is 1100 miles and it ends in Nome, which is at the. On the far coast. And It's. It's like 90 miles from Russia. And I, I stayed with this family because there was no hotel to stay in. And one day and they gave me. They lent me a pickup truck to drive around town. And so I'm driving around this town, which looks exactly like, you know, Sicily, but a leave, but more rundown. And I'm videotaping the whole time. And then I'm. I'm. I'm in a truck in Joel's jacket, you know, wearing Joel's boots. And I get out and I start walking along the sidewalk and I hear my feet shuffling, as they always did in those boots, which is why I always had to do ADR to replace it, because I was always shuffling. And I just turned the camera toward myself and I said, I am Joel Fleischman.
- [39:55]
A
I think about that all the time still, because it's had such a huge impact in our lives, those five years. And. And I will be walking along the ranch out there mucking stalls, or out there with my lawnmower, my weed eater, my chainsaw, and I will do the same thing. I'm like, I am Maggie o'. Connell.
- [40:12]
B
Right? That's funny. Like, you talk about, you know, the metaphysics of things and like, you know, and also the predestination possibilities and like, you know, on some level. And then if you get into. In all these quantum notions of things and timelessness and multiple dimensions, it's like world were we, you know, is these characters we play their own dimension? Do they live. Does Joel and Maggie live elsewhere still? Is it still going on? Is there a dimension where those characters and we just a parallel universe?
- [40:46]
A
Parallel universe, yeah.
- [40:47]
B
Where we just inhabited them. But, but, but then we came back to our own universe. I mean, it all gets very theoretical and, and very woo woo. But it's interesting to think, like, why were we cast? Why was Corbett, you know, cast as Chris? Why was Barry, you know, and yet we all have grains of those characters in us I mean, that's what's fascinating, you know, it's fascinating.
- [41:13]
A
I've always been really confused about self will. Me, too, because there's a theory that says, you know, give your will to God. So it's like you're supposed to give your will to God. I'm like, okay, I'm really confused about that. And I was really confused about that in my 20s. I'm like, well, wait.
- [41:27]
B
Because it's. What's God's will for you?
- [41:29]
A
Yeah. You've given me the seed to, like, do something, but then I'm supposed to turn it over. But there's something about pursuing the path I have found. Show up, don't give up for the miracle don't let anybody put out your flame show up, show up, show up. But then you've got to let the results go. And, you know, that's the most marvelous story of my saga. Getting to Northern Exposures. I thought it was going to be that Tom Selleck pilot, and I thought that was it. When I didn't get it, I was so despondent, I didn't think I could show up for Northern Exposure. That's the synopsized version of the story,
- [42:00]
B
which is amazing because in another parallel universe, as you say, another dimension, you didn't. And you didn't do that show. What happened to that. That. Janine.
- [42:08]
A
Yeah. Right, well. Right, well. And then what happens in that parallel universe affects what happens here. So it's. It's pretty. It's pretty. It's pretty wild. But I think about that stuff all the time because I'm really. I mean, I believe in heaven, of course, but. But I think there's. So, like, where is heaven? So is heaven way up there or is heaven right here? Here?
- [42:29]
B
Well, you got it. You can't think it's really up there. Like, up. What is up there up there? There's no up there. There is no up there. When you get into physics, there's no physics.
- [42:37]
A
There would be out of outer space. Like. Like, there's also the other theory.
- [42:41]
B
The outer space is everywhere. It's. It's not. There's no outer space.
- [42:45]
A
Did you see the movie with. Oh, God, he's pos. Jim Carrey. The movie where he hits the wall and the wall breaks and his reality wasn't his reality as at all.
- [42:57]
B
I'm not sure you mean story that the Jim Carrey Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
- [43:03]
A
No, no, no, no.
- [43:06]
B
He was in that.
- [43:06]
A
Oh, come on.
- [43:07]
B
Great. That's a great movie, by the way.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah. I'm sure it is. Well, he, it's. It's with. Yeah, he. He's on a boat and he's in the middle of this thing and they're all watching him and he thinks it's his own reality.
- [43:19]
B
Yeah, that's. That's true. Exactly. Yeah, that's it.
- [43:23]
A
Okay. So he hits the. The wall and it breaks. And it. So it wasn't what he thought was reality. Wasn't reality at all. So what I mean about up there is there's another theory that everything that's happening within our universe is just not even real. It's all just this kind of hologram type of situation and that we're really out there. So when I say heaven, I mean kind of beyond the universe. It's like wherever heaven is. But then sometimes I think heaven is right here. All of our loved ones, everybody, is. It's just a dimension that we can't see. And my theory is kind of like Star Wars. Someday we're gonna put on go glasses and we're going to be able to see the other dimension. And when that happens, it's all over.
- [44:04]
B
The thing of it is, when you get into physics, there's no difference between out and in. You know, it's all one. And so there's no, you know, there, there's nothing. There's no separation. What. And, and, and the, the. The theory that you're alluding to about the. The. The universe is an imagination. It's a collective imagination. We all share in that. And if we, if we all, you know, in, in theory it existed, would it exist?
- [44:34]
A
Yeah. Well, that's why I love philosophy and that's why I love numbers, and that's why I love physics and I love quantum physics. What about the fact in quantum physics? I watched this great PBS documentary actually, then I've watched everything since that they split the atom and the atom was over here and the other atoms over here. And no matter how far that atom away, which would feed into parallel universe. Right. No matter how far that atom was, they did the same thing.
- [44:58]
B
Yeah, it's. You're not quite telling it right. It's not the. It's. It's a. It's a. It's like a neuron, a photon or something that, that if they, if they're. It were attached at one point, no matter how separated they are, they always have. It's called. And Einstein called it something like something as spooky spookiness at a distance or something.
- [45:19]
A
Yes, Einstein. Yes. Yes, exactly. That's what Einstein Said spooky at a distance. What do you say? Spooky something at a distance. What was it?
- [45:27]
B
Entanglement, I think they call it.
- [45:29]
A
He said spooky something at a distance.
- [45:31]
B
But it's thinking. They. But, but you know, a lot of Einstein stuff was, has been disputed by quantum mechanics. And so, and they have computers now
- [45:41]
A
that are quantum mechanics and they don't even understand how it works.
- [45:45]
B
Right.
- [45:45]
A
They just utilize the theory and then they let it go because they don't have a clue.
- [45:49]
B
Quantum computing is coming along. It hasn't quite been realized yet, but I met a guy at a party who has a company that, that deals with it and it's, it's like 10 years if, if that. But that's going to change everything, you know, as AI is going to change everything.
- [46:07]
A
AI is so scary. AI is so scary.
- [46:10]
B
But also like every tool in history, it's a double edged sword as far as I'm concerned. There is incredible benefits to AI, the medical research. The breakthroughs that they're making in medical research are significant and profound. And so you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's how we use it. It's like nuclear, nuclear power. It has really great positives, but it also could destroy us. So you have to be responsible. And that's the trick. Because, because, you know, mankind is not always responsible. And even if they, you know, even unconsciously they make mistakes. And so that's the, that's the fine, you know, ledge we walk on. On.
- [46:57]
A
Well, and the quantum, the quantum physics once again, it's all numbers. Okay, back to PI. It's, it's all numbers and how they figure it all out. And I, and the fact that we're just utilizing. I think personally God puts these ideas in people's minds. And Einstein believed in that. Einstein believed that he had to do a meditation and he would go into this quiet. Are you familiar with this? He would go into a quiet place of meditation and connect with God. And Leonardo da Vinci did the same thing. You know, they would go into these meditative states.
- [47:35]
B
I do the same thing every day.
- [47:37]
A
Yeah, you connect with God. Yes, yes.
- [47:39]
B
But it's very fleeting. You know, it's like it's really.
- [47:43]
A
We have to go take out the trash and then we mow over the trash.
- [47:47]
B
I meditated today for an hour and a half. I was in there for an hour and a half. But when I long time.
- [47:52]
A
How do you do that not have your mind go nuts?
- [47:54]
B
My mind does go nuts. You know, that's the thing that people don't realize, the best meditators, the master, they have a thought every 10 seconds. It's what you do with the thought. And I fail most of the time, but I would say 20 to 30% of the time, I do touch something that you could call God, higher power, whatever you want to call it, I do touch it. And I get it every day, day. But it's very fleeting. I can't hold it. I can't control it. I can't say, like, oh, I got you now. I'm with, you know, it's like. And then, and then a thought will come in my mind and it'll be a minute, two minutes, three minutes before I even realize that I'm thinking about the car I want to buy or the girl I saw or whatever.
- [48:33]
A
I feel like I'm a failure. That's why I always feel like I'm a failure.
- [48:36]
B
The thing is, it's like muscle. It's like a muscle, you have to work it every day. And there will be benefits. And by the time I'm 90, I have a feeling I'll be meditating three hours, four hours a day if I'm lucky enough, because.
- [48:48]
A
Sit in bed. Do you sit on the floor?
- [48:51]
B
I used to sit. I used to do the cross the leg sit. Now I lay in bed and it's. And I never fall asleep, ever. But I do it first thing when I wake up, if I, if I can.
- [49:01]
A
And are you thinking about a certain word? Are you humming?
- [49:03]
B
I took a TM class years ago, so I have a mantra that I use sometimes, but not all the time. I use breath. I use this single point. I have this spot that I can see. It's like a white light. That, that, that's the higher power kind of thing. It comes and it goes. It comes and it goes.
- [49:20]
A
That's really cool.
- [49:21]
B
So, but it's really. But I forgot what point I was trying to make before I.
- [49:25]
A
Well, I will just add to that though, to build off. What you're saying is I do that with the Bible, right? I open the Bible, I read scripture, I get on a prayer group. We all just pray. We don't even really cross talk, we just pray. And so, but what's, what's, what's so tricky about it? If you believe in good and evil, right? Is that you, you go, oh good, I did it. You know, I did a half hour prayer group. I read my Bible, I'm connected. And then the next thing, you get up, you go downstair stairs and you're just flipping out over something.
- [49:54]
B
It's amazing. It's amazing. No, it's amazing. Well, that's what I think. We were talking. Look, to bring this full circle, because I think we're coming up toward the end here, but to bring it full circle to your point. Originally, it's that perfectionism that gets in our way. It's not that you failed. You're a human being, and an imperfection is the perfection. You know, the embracing of our. Of our flaws and the not beating ourselves and the. And hopefully, hopefully catching ourselves before we damage ourselves or others. You know what I mean? That's the thing. It's like I can beat myself up and really go down a rabbit hole of despair, or I can remember that this is just an impression. That's what the Stoics would call it. I read Stoic philosophy.
- [50:37]
A
Yeah, Stoics. I know all about that. Yes.
- [50:39]
B
They would call it an impression and that the impression isn't real, you know, and so I don't need to beat myself up about something I did or something I said or job I didn't, or. Or, you know, I need to take responsibility for it and vow to try to not do it again, you know,
- [50:57]
A
but that it's okay, right?
- [50:59]
B
And that it's okay. And that's hard. I mean, even as I say it, it's. It's. It's hard. And it's hard to. You know, it's hard to live. It's hard to live that way. But it's. But it. It feels like the right path to me because my life gets perfect, better. My life doesn't get worse. My life only gets better. That's not to say I don't have all kinds of pitfalls, but my life, as I get older, gets better, more fulfilling. I have more capacity for joy, but it takes a lot of work. And as I said, I fail at it a lot.
- [51:34]
A
I like that you and I are on the same trajectory, because I think when we were together, working as actors in our 20s, we were both very passionate people. We were determined, we were driven, we were passionate. We were good people. I would like to think, you know, but we were young, we were in our 20s. We thought we were immortal. And you can look. And then what I really appreciate about you is that you're on kind of the same thing I'm trying to do every morning. I try to pray. I try to be a better person. I try to think about the impact I make on other people. But you said something really interesting. When I fail, I Go down the rabbit hole. And that's what happens to me. I do the same thing. I fail, and I'll go, oh. And that's why so many people don't try it. So many say, I don't want to have faith. Whether. No matter what the faith is, it could be any faith. I don't want to have faith because I'm going to fail at it. You know, I. I don't want to be a hypocrite or I don't want to, you know, I don't want to try to meditate because I'm not going to be any good at it. But it's. It's. It's in the trying. It's not in the perfection that. Where we. We do sometimes. And I would do that a lot after my father died. I would just lie there and meditate, and I would swear I would just try to connect to him. And I felt at times I could connect to God and connect to him. So it was a meditation of a sort. But it's. It's in the trying, I guess, right?
- [52:44]
B
It's in the trying. I think that's a good place to leave it. I mean, let's just keep trying and good things will come.
- [52:53]
A
Yep, there we have it. And it was a thank you, Andy and Diane, for another beautifully written episode. The direction, the editing, the music, but just the philosophy. The moral. Moral message. The philosophical message.
- [53:12]
B
It's great. It's a great message.
- [53:13]
A
You know, what would you say the message was? I guess the message is nothing's perfect.
- [53:19]
B
Perfectionism.
- [53:22]
A
Can we say that on a podcast?
- [53:23]
B
There you go. I couldn't even say that perfectly. Yeah, we can say it anyway.
- [53:27]
A
The.
- [53:27]
B
The. I just want to, again, kind of apologize to the audience because I hope they, you know, I know you and I appreciate this conversation. I hope that they do. And I can only imagine the, The. The notes we're going to get from the people in. So we'll see.
- [53:42]
A
Well, you know, because. Well, we're thinking. But, you know, I guess in a way, we may not have talked about every aspect of filming the episode and whatnot, but we did touch on the message that the episode was trying to
- [53:54]
B
make and how it affected us.
- [53:56]
A
Yeah, exactly. How. All right, well, next week we. We've got a wonderful guest. We have the director, Chuck Braverman, so we're excited about that. We have another wonderful editor, Brianna London. Who else do we have? We have Anthony Edwards, the bubble man. So we've got some good shows coming forward, and we want to do a live episode. So we're thinking May 1st for the live episode. So we'll send everything out. We're going to figure out how to do that, and maybe some people can come on camera. I don't know. We haven't figured that out yet. But at the very least, you can put your. Your questions in the chat and we'll answer them.
- [54:29]
B
All righty.
- [54:30]
A
All righty. Signing off. I guess. So. Until next time, this is Northern Disclosure about northern exposure from O.C. connell and Fleischman.
- [54:40]
B
I think it'd be better to be Fleischman o'. Connell.
- [54:43]
A
In your dreams, Fleischman. Northern Disclosure is a production with Evergreen
- [54:53]
B
Podcasts and executive produced by Paul Anderson
- [54:56]
A
and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.