026 - The REAL Cost Of Healthy Food & The Rise of Urban Farming w/ Jamila Norman

Summary

Podcast Summary: Not All Hood (NAH) Episode 026 - The REAL Cost Of Healthy Food & The Rise of Urban Farming with Jamila Norman

Overview In Episode 026 of the Not All Hood (NAH) podcast, hosts Malcolm-Jamal Warner and Candace Kelley engage in a profound conversation with Jamila Norman, an urban farmer, food activist, and founder of Patchwork City Farms in Atlanta. The episode delves into the intricate dynamics of healthy eating, the historical context of Black farmers in America, the rising trend of urban farming, and the complexities surrounding plant-based meats. Through insightful discussions, Jamila shares her experiences and perspectives on creating sustainable food systems within Black communities.

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1. Historical Context of Black Farmers

The conversation begins by addressing the historical presence and decline of Black farmers in the United States.

• Podcast Host (02:39): "I've always seen just growing up, like, just farming. Just the farming life is, like, that's just hard. I don't want to. I don't want to do that. Put that kind of work in."

• Jamila Norman (08:00): "Black people did not leave the South because they didn't love the land... It was a campaign of white violence, terror, all of that, that drove people to the north."

Jamila emphasizes that the migration of Black farmers from the South was not due to a lack of love for farming but rather a response to systemic oppression and violence aimed at dismantling Black agricultural communities.

2. The Real Cost of Healthy Eating

The hosts and Jamila explore the financial and practical barriers to maintaining a healthy diet.

• Podcast Host (14:14): "Eating healthy is, is unfortunately, it is a luxury."

• Jamila Norman (15:13): "It is designed that way. And the interesting thing is it's also very American... What we see as a luxury is just a way of life for a lot of other people."

They discuss how fresh, organic foods are often more expensive and less accessible, making healthy eating a privilege rather than a standard option for many communities.

3. Urban Farming and Local Markets

Jamila shares her journey into urban farming and the establishment of Patchwork City Farms.

• Podcast Host (01:38): "Today we have Jamila Norman... She's the founder of Patchwork City Farms in Atlanta, growing organic fruits and vegetables for local markets and building fresh food access in her community."

• Jamila Norman (45:01): "We grow year-round, seasonally, producing about $10,000 of food yearly... selling every single week at the farm stand and multiple markets."

The discussion highlights the importance of urban farming in providing fresh produce to local markets and empowering communities through sustainable agriculture.

4. Quality and Ethical Meat Consumption

A critical examination of the differences between store-bought meat and ethically raised, locally sourced meat.

• Jamila Norman (13:18): "The meat your grandparents ate is not the meat that is on the store shelves today. It's full of antibiotics, growth hormones."

• Podcast Host (15:05): "It is a luxury to be able to eat Healthy and eat clean."

They contrast the nutritional and ethical disparities, advocating for consuming meat from trusted local sources to ensure quality and sustainability.

5. Veganism and Plant-Based Alternatives

The conversation turns to the rise of plant-based meats and their implications for health and culture.

• Jamila Norman (19:12): "There's a lot of greenwashing in that industry. Companies like Impossible Burger are highly processed and not truly plant-based."

• Podcast Host (21:40): "You're better off eating clean meat."

Jamila critiques the heavily engineered nature of some plant-based products, suggesting that traditional, minimally processed vegetarian options may be healthier and more authentic.

6. Accessibility and Economic Barriers

Discussion on the economic challenges of accessing fresh produce and the role of programs like EBT.

• Jamila Norman (35:08): "We accept EBT in every market that we're at... making things affordable."

• Podcast Host (15:08): "It's a luxury to be able to eat Healthy and eat clean."

They explore how financial constraints limit access to nutritious foods and the importance of making fresh produce affordable through community programs.

7. Corporate and Government Influence on Food Systems

An exploration of how large agricultural corporations and government policies impact food accessibility and quality.

• Jamila Norman (49:32): "Big Ag and the government have a direct correlation in shaping our food systems to benefit their agendas."

• Jamila Norman (63:18): "They want to privatize everything... water, food services, etc."

The discussion underscores the pervasive influence of big agriculture and government entities in determining what food is available and affordable, often at the expense of community health and sustainability.

8. Education and Future Generations

The importance of educating children about nutrition and sustainable eating habits.

• Podcast Host (50:44): "My wife was very intentional in terms of establishing our daughter's palate."

• Jamila Norman (52:47): "Train your kids to discern between quality and mass-produced food."

They emphasize the role of family and educational environments in shaping children's eating habits and fostering a lifelong appreciation for nutritious foods.

9. Skills for Self-Sufficiency

Highlighting essential skills needed for communities to achieve self-sufficiency in food production and other areas.

• Jamila Norman (71:24): "Blacksmithing, plumbing, carpentry... these are crucial skills for building and sustaining our communities."

• Jamila Norman (71:57): "We need skills to physically build our communities to avoid relying on external systems."

The conversation advocates for the revival of traditional skills and trades within Black communities to enhance self-reliance and resilience.

10. Sustainable Practices and Community Empowerment

Jamila discusses sustainable agricultural practices and their impact on community empowerment.

• Jamila Norman (37:49): "Buying fresh from local farmers reduces food waste and supports community sustainability."

• Jamila Norman (36:55): "Knowing how to grow your own food is a commitment and a lifestyle."

They explore how sustainable farming practices not only provide healthier food options but also strengthen community bonds and economic stability.

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Resilience: Despite systemic oppression, Black communities have a rich history in agriculture that continues to inspire modern urban farming initiatives.

• Economic Barriers: Healthy, organic foods remain financially inaccessible for many, necessitating community-driven solutions to bridge the gap.

• Quality Over Quantity: Emphasizing the importance of consuming ethically raised, high-quality meat and fresh produce over mass-produced alternatives.

• Critical View of Plant-Based Industries: Scrutinizing the motives and health implications of heavily processed plant-based meat substitutes.

• Educational Imperative: Fostering early education on nutrition and sustainable eating to cultivate healthier future generations.

• Self-Sufficiency Through Skills: Encouraging the revival and acquisition of traditional skills to build resilient and self-reliant communities.

• Community Empowerment: Sustainable agricultural practices empower communities by providing fresh food, reducing waste, and enhancing economic stability.

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Notable Quotes

• Jamila Norman (08:00): "Black people did not leave the South because they didn't love the land... It was a campaign of white violence, terror, all of that, that drove people to the north."

• Podcast Host (14:14): "Eating healthy is, is unfortunately, it is a luxury."

• Jamila Norman (19:12): "There's a lot of greenwashing in that industry. Companies like Impossible Burger are highly processed and not truly plant-based."

• Jamila Norman (49:32): "Big Ag and the government have a direct correlation in shaping our food systems to benefit their agendas."

• Jamila Norman (71:24): "Blacksmithing, plumbing, carpentry... these are crucial skills for building and sustaining our communities."

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This episode of Not All Hood (NAH) offers a critical examination of the intersection between race, agriculture, and food systems in America. Jamila Norman's insights shed light on the systemic challenges and highlight the pivotal role of urban farming in fostering healthier, more resilient Black communities.

Transcript

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[Jamila Norman]

Look for quality. Right. It's not to say you can never eat a pizza because pizza is bad. Right. Because their countries, their whole culture is pizza.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

They're not walking around 4 or 500 pounds. Right. You have countries where like lots of meat, lots of, you know, dairy, lots of butter, lots of fat, pastas. All the things that we would say here in America, oh my God, stay away from that food because that food is bad. It's the engineered, it's the mass produced aspect of that.

[Podcast Host]

Comrades, welcome to another episode of Nah, Not All Hood. Today we have Jamila Norman, urban farmer, food activist and host of Homegrown, which you can catch streaming on hbo. Max. She's the founder of Patchwork City Farms in Atlanta, growing organic fruits and vegetables for local markets and building fresh food access in her community. What I love about Jamila is she champions sustainable agriculture and empowers communities of color through urban farming. Today we dig into the real cost of clean eating, the roots of Georgia's red clay, and why plant based meats might not be as healthy as they seem. Stay with us. It's a conversation worth digging into. Sorry, I had to enjoy the conversation. The whole idea of like when I think of farmers, like, let me think of like black farmers, right? Just like we think of cowboys, we always think of farmers, we always think of cowboys as white.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it's like, I guess like, like everything what we've done has been co opted and become mainstream and become whitewashed.

[Consumer]

Yeah. And I guess it depends upon where you're from. Right? Because if you're from down here and you've grown up with farmers, then your perspective is Different.

[Jamila Norman]

Ye.

[Consumer]

But if you're really kind of trained by the media, the media is gonna try to tell you it's just a white farmer thing.

[Jamila Norman]

That's right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Consumer]

But it's a big difference.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Very big difference.

[Consumer]

Cause look at you.

[Jamila Norman]

I mean, my family's Caribbean, so, like, you know, you live on the land. You know, even though great grandparents were the last to farm, it's like that story, that experience was always kept fresh for us. My parents, my mom, my dad, you know, we lived on the land. We was organic before that was organic, you know, all that, like. You know what I mean? Like. And they didn't get much from the stores, you know, So I knew I always wanted to, like, end up on some land somewhere.

[Consumer]

Right, right.

[Jamila Norman]

I didn't think I was gonna be a farmer. I thought, oh, I'll retire on, like, you know, big piece of property, grow some food, chill, you know, tend to my garden. And then farming found me much earlier in life.

[Podcast Host]

I've always seen just growing up, like, just farming. Just the farming life is, like, that's just hard. I don't want to. I don't want to do that. Put that kind of work in. But now that I'm older and I have a daughter.

[Jamila Norman]

Right, right.

[Podcast Host]

And now that I'm way more conscious of what goes into the food and what we're buying and pesticides and all of that, I've been totally into, like, growing our own food.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Like when Covid. When Covid happened. And again, you know, Covid was clearly. Was fucked up. Fucked up for a lot of people. But at the same time, it was also almost a godsend for people who knew how to pivot.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, right. Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

And for. So for us, we started doing. We started growing our own vegetables in our backyard.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

There was a school across the street because kids weren't going to school. We were using their plot.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know if you're familiar with the Wild Center.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So we had applied at the Wild center so far. Oh, my God.

[Consumer]

You're local.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

I had no idea.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Consumer]

No farmer Malcolm at the table. Shut up.

[Podcast Host]

My wife's the farmer. I'm just like, the farmer, you know?

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

I'm the founder, builder, Hammer Hair.

[Consumer]

But, you know, it's interesting that you said, you know, oh, my goodness, a farmer's life seems kind of hard and committed. But, you know, growing up, because I guess my parents, since they were from the south, and I would hear, all right, and it Sounded very lovely to me. Like, my dad and I were early risers, you know, so it felt very natural. So when I was growing up, I always wanted to grow. And we grew some things like peppers and lettuce, those kind of quick six to eight week kind of turnaround things. And then as I got older, I wanted chickens. And my father was like, we moved here from the south to get away from. To get away. He says, do you. Because what I was trying to do, I was. I was trying to get it all together. Like, I was committed to the chickens. I said, all right, I get some chickens, but what happens when I'm away? All right, I'll ask my parents. They were like, who do you think you are asking to take care of your chickens?

[Jamila Norman]

Right?

[Consumer]

And I was like, well, yeah, just a little bit, you know, how. So my father, he sat me down, he said, and this is. I knew. He's like, remember I used to actually pick cotton in the South, Right. I used to actually, like, go through the things that you read about in the books. He was like, I mean, I would watch your chickens, but really, they're dirty. And, you know, we went through the whole process.

[Jamila Norman]

Cause where were you?

[Consumer]

New Jersey.

[Jamila Norman]

New J.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Jamila Norman]

But you know, it's funny because I'm originally from New York, and we grew. We. We woke up the chickens just about every morning. Because, I mean, it's a big immigrant community, and like, roosters are waking us up. And so people will try to bring some aspect of their culture with them. It doesn't matter where they are.

[Consumer]

Exactly.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, so chickens woke us up in Queens, you know, somebody's rooster. We didn't have much green space, but people, you know, they try to grow in a pot. They try to have something.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, to remind them of, like, where they came from.

[Consumer]

No, absolutely.

[Jamila Norman]

Just to be connected. Yeah. I have friends who were like, their parents used to send them out and be like, you know, go pick some dandelion. They'll be like, finding wild greens, you know, in New York.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Jamila Norman]

Like, because they're from the south and, you know, just go find.

[Consumer]

Right. Just forage anyway.

[Jamila Norman]

Just forage, right? Yeah. You know, because that's what they know, you know, so it's interesting how, like, even though we. We. We get violently snatched off the land. Right. Like, people still find ways to connect. And then you're, you know, like you said, your. Your parents or your grandparents are like, what. You're interested in this. Like, we ran away from this. And. And I think for me, especially being a Farmer in the south because my family, again, is Caribbean, so I don't have the black American Southern experience, you know, in terms of, like, sort of like, you know, what it was to be like in the south and then have to, you know, move. But what I try to explain to people was that black people did not leave the south because they didn't love the land. You know, that's fair, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, right. Like, these are people who were enslaved and still wanted to farm after that, still wanted to make a living on the land. Still want. I mean, by the millions, you know, and it was a campaign of, like, you know, white violence, terror, all of that, that drove people to the north because it was not about trying to see black people make it, you know, after we just owned you. How dare you now out farm me? Well, dude, you weren't farming anyway.

[Consumer]

Right, Right.

[Jamila Norman]

Who don't be farming? You know what I mean? So, like, they were doing really well. They were amassing land, they were building communities, all of that. And, you know, white folks were just like, nah. And so it became like, we're going through these towns, y' all got to sunrise, and people just packed up what they had, and that's what drove them to the north, you know, so. But now I see a big transition of people coming back. Some people were able to keep family land, and a lot of people are coming back, and they're just realizing, like, that. That, you know, the. The story of, like, go to the big city and make it, like, it's been so hard. Like, I love New York, but New York is hard. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, cities are hard. So people want to come back to the land. They're realizing, like, that connection is important, and also the.

[Podcast Host]

The.

[Jamila Norman]

The.

[Podcast Host]

The necessity of it again.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

When you understand, you know, what goes into the food that we're buying.

[Consumer]

Everything on the inside aisle.

[Jamila Norman]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Consumer]

I mean, the outside is where the produce and the.

[Jamila Norman]

Right, The. The. The basic good stuff is.

[Podcast Host]

But even. But even. Even the produce now. Right.

[Jamila Norman]

That's true.

[Podcast Host]

Like, I remember. I remember Cat said to me, this is like, probably like 15, 20 years ago.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And he said, when you go into the grocery, the produce section.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

You don't see any bugs on their vegetables. He's like, you don't want to be anywhere where you don't see any bugs on the vegetables.

[Consumer]

I see.

[Podcast Host]

Right, right. If they're putting all of this. Whatever they're putting into this, the produce to keep the bugs away. You're ingesting that.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, and there's a. So there is a, A. A necessity, I think, as people become more mindful.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Realizing, you know what there. I'd be better off growing my own.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Especially if I'm going to go to. Remember the. There was the documentary Food Inc. Yeah.

[Consumer]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Podcast Host]

And they did they. This section on this family when they went to. They went to the grocery store and a head of lettuce was like $3.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And then they took that same family to Burger King and they were. And it was a family of four.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And they were able to feed the whole family at Burger king for like $8.

[Jamila Norman]

Right. You know, and those become the choices.

[Consumer]

Right, Right. Yeah, absolutely. And then too, you know, they always say, okay, oh, well, my, my father or my mother had diabetes and it runs in the family. Or heart disease and it runs the family. But really it's the habits that run the family.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

You know what I mean? You're passing down, going to burger King or McDonald's. And so normally if you see somebody. I don't know if this is fair, but generally, if you have parents that might be big or, you know, eat a certain way, their kids normally follow suit as much as they don't want it. But it's the same types of food. I remember being down south and I had a cousin, we were in Mississippi, and she had what I thought was a tomato, and I had a cousin who ate a tomato. Like an apple, right?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

You know, lots of people do that and some people eat potatoes like that, too. I mean, when it's. When it's.

[Jamila Norman]

Onions. Potato, onions. Southerners, boy, Southerners, okay.

[Consumer]

They will make every.

[Jamila Norman]

You know. Yeah.

[Consumer]

But it was a pig's foot.

[Jamila Norman]

Oh.

[Consumer]

And I was like. I mean, I was so. I was little too. I was like, what is that? And she just was just loving it.

[Jamila Norman]

I mean.

[Consumer]

And honestly, it made me want it, too. I didn't eat it, but I was like, wow. But that was in her culture, right? To take a pig's foot and eat it like an app.

[Podcast Host]

How old were you?

[Consumer]

I was about 5 and she was about 7.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

And I remember.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. I remember coming to Atlanta and, you know, seeing jars of pickled pick feed and people used to eat like pickles in class and just all kinds of interesting things. Yeah. And I was like, what is happening? You know what I mean?

[Podcast Host]

Just a little bit of a country.

[Jamila Norman]

Right. But, you know, I mean, but, but, but see, when we, when we talk about farms and we talk about healthy eating and we Talk about all of that. I think, you know, while I'm like pretty much 80, 80% plant based, like for a lot of people living on the land, like, meat is also part of that. And the meat that you eat, like, so people raise their own animals, they raise their own chickens, beef, cow, all of that pork. And when you raise your own animals and you feed them good stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, and you know, what you're feeding, that's a very different type of meat than what you're getting in a grocery store. Yeah. So that's the other thing that it's like, that's part of the experience of having to try to, you know, educate people on, you know, because people feel attacked when you say, you know, meat, it's so bad, you know, and they're like, that's their culture. Like they grew up with that. Right. And so we're not trying to demonize eating meat, but you have to understand the meat your grandparents ate is not the meat that is on the store shelves today. Like, and the clarification. Oh yeah, it's not so.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not so black.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

It's how the meat's, it's where you.

[Consumer]

Bringing your meat from? Right.

[Jamila Norman]

And it's how it's raised. It's full of antibiotics, it's of. Full, full of growth hormones. It's full of just like. I mean, you don't want it up.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Eating healthy is, is unfortunately, it is a luxury.

[Consumer]

It is.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

It literally is expensive luxury.

[Podcast Host]

There are two. We get our meat from butchers. So there are two different butchers we go to. So the meat we get is grass fed. Like it's, it's. I can't think of the word right now.

[Jamila Norman]

Pastured.

[Podcast Host]

Pastured.

[Jamila Norman]

Pastured.

[Podcast Host]

But what is ethically. Ethically grown? Yes, but that is, and we've only said that that's. It's expensive. But my wife has actually done the comparison. So you get, you know, you get a whole chicken from Whole Foods. Yeah, it's not much more. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not much less than getting that same whole chicken. Not the same whole chicken, but getting a whole chicken from a butcher we go to. So it's worth the drive to go to the butcher, then go to Whole Foods if I'm only, if, if, you know, if I'm spending, you know, a dollar more.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Consumer]

No, it is, but it is, but.

[Podcast Host]

It is a luxury.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

To be able to eat Healthy and eat clean. I think part of it is it's designed that way.

[Jamila Norman]

It is designed that way. And the interesting thing is it's also very American. Like, when you travel globally, like, people shop every single day, week for their fresh vegetables, for their fresh meat, for the like. What we see as a luxury is just a way of life for a lot of other people, Right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

And. Exactly. It's a system that's been designed to where now that becomes inaccessible just to, like, eat fresh.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

And what we're marketed is all the processed fast food. This is that. And the other. That's what. But. But the other thing is, like, grocery stores. And the whole concept of grocery stores is only like, maybe 40, 50 years old. Previous to that, people were shopping from their butcher, their baker, you know, the local farmer coming into markets. So, like, there was a whole culture shift in how you're shopping, who you're connected to, moving away from rural communities, concentrating people in cities, you know, all of that. So it just divorced you from the whole process. You know?

[Consumer]

Comrades, if you're enjoying this episode, join the conversation and make sure to, like, share, subscribe and comment below. Na, na na.

[Podcast Host]

Is there a black farmer's market in Atlanta?

[Jamila Norman]

There is not a black farmer's market because there's not that many black farmers. But you will find black farmers at local markets.

[Consumer]

Yeah, yeah. Like doing their own thing, but not.

[Jamila Norman]

On a very large. Large scale, because, I mean, again, we in this country were almost a million black farmers. And now I think the last census that came out, they did 2000. They do agricultural census kind of like every 10 years.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

And 30. 32,000 in the nation.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. So.

[Consumer]

And then along with that comes the loss of land.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly. So loss of land, all that. So, I mean, so very dispersed. And a lot of farmers are in rural communities. You know, everybody's rural.

[Consumer]

I remember going once to Whole Foods, and it was for a funeral or, you know, you went to Whole Foods for a funeral. Sorry. Yeah, that didn't come out right. I did not go to Whole Foods for a funeral.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, I was like, we should shop in for the funeral, baby.

[Consumer]

And I told my sister, I will get, you know, the food that we're gonna pick up. And I said, I'll get. I'll get some ham. And so went over and they were. I was on the phone and they were slicing the ham. And when I got to the car, it was not pink. It was not the black people's ham that we know. Do you know what I'm Saying it was, I guess it was not processed in a way, it was more brown. But in other words, I mean, it made me realize how much the food, like a ham that we get, you know, like that solid ham that you get is processed well. And obviously because ham, you know, pigs.

[Jamila Norman]

Don'T look that way.

[Consumer]

They're not that contained and all the same size, but it was not the same color. It was processed in a different way. I mean, I have, I haven't eaten ham since I was like, wow, you know, that was a lot just to see the whole process and how different it is depending upon whose hands it's in.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Consumer]

And I did not bring it to where I was going.

[Jamila Norman]

She's not getting handed.

[Consumer]

No, I say it. No, I could not, I couldn't. No, no. I could not explain what it was. But it was from Whole Foods, but it was not processed in the right way in the same way. The other thing that kind of gets me is, you know, people who are vegan, but then they get that, that meat, what's that meat called? Thank you. Start shaking your head and it bleeds.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Consumer]

And you cook it.

[Jamila Norman]

Nope.

[Podcast Host]

Should we not say the name company?

[Jamila Norman]

No, I'll name all the companies and then I don't do it.

[Consumer]

And as I was cooking it, I was so confused. I was like, why is it bleeding? And then why am I trying to eat a meat replacement anyway?

[Jamila Norman]

Why are we trying to make vegetables bleed?

[Consumer]

Why are we trying to make. Yeah, it didn't make any sense.

[Jamila Norman]

No.

[Consumer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

That, that is my, my problem with some of the vegan propaganda right now. I'm going to call it propaganda.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, there's definitely some propaganda. And, and the thing again, that's a movement that's been co opted, right? Yes. There's a lot of greenwashing in that industry. So for a company like Impossible Burger to be like, oh, we have this vegan burger that's a GMO based technology where we, you know, they have created a process where vegetables are now able to produce hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is in blood, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

Right. Vegetables produce, you know, chlorophyll, photosynthesis. So that's what vegetables do. Anything in the animal kingdom does hemoglobin. So they have engineered soybeans to produce hemoglobin because they've injected fish genetics into the soybeans. And so that's, that's the flavor. That's what gives meat its flavor. And then, then you package it with 20,000 other ingredients, so extremely processed. And then you like, oh, we have this burger that's plant based, that can. No, it's not. It's.

[Podcast Host]

Right. The problem.

[Jamila Norman]

Eat some. Go eat a black bean burger. Like they've been veggie burgers made from all kinds of vegetables on the market that you can also make yourself for like 50, 60 years. But all of a sudden, like, this is the thing and they, and they're, you know, people, people need to pay attention to what the market. And it's for Impossible Burger markets to meat eaters. That's really their audience. They're trying to get meat eaters to feel like, oh, I can use this as a replacement to meat sometimes. It really is not for plant based. You know what I mean? That's really their market. And then everything that I just found out that I just told y' all about Impossible Burger is on their website. Gotta do a little reading, gotta do a little digging. They got videos, they're like, this is what we do. We're in the lab and we've got big vat of soybeans and here comes blood out of the soybeans. And then we put that in our burger and people are just like, oh, wow, that's. It's so plant based. And I'm like, it is not.

[Podcast Host]

You're better off eating the burger, right?

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You're better off eating clean meat. And that's what I tell people when people are like, what should I'm like, eat clean meat, please don't go buy. If you want to eat meat, go eat good meat.

[Consumer]

It's like the vegan with the oreo. I thought you were vegan. Or it is. And you're like, it is.

[Jamila Norman]

But wait, come on, come on. What are we doing? What are we doing? Yeah, like, are we vegan? Just to say we're vegan. Are we vegan because we're trying to be healthy? Because if you're trying to be healthy, you're not eating all that. I don't now need to know that, you know, ho ho's and dumb dumbs and all that is vegan. So I could just be like, oh, no, I'm vegan, right?

[Consumer]

I feel better about myself, but still have the health concerns, still have all.

[Jamila Norman]

Of the issues, right? Because what are we trying to do? Are we trying to heal ourselves? Are we trying to get better? Are we trying to be our best selves?

[Podcast Host]

But if we get. There are industries that are there for. There are industries that will go out, go out of business, they will collapse Right. Really lived a healthy lifestyle and eating healthy. Like there's.

[Jamila Norman]

But there'd be lots more industries that will be servicing us in those healthy ways. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, if, like a transition's gotta happen, you know, we can't be like, oh, well, they're gonna go out. Well, honey, pivot with the times, you know, like if people no longer want a thing, industries pivot. That's why big ag pivots.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Jamila Norman]

But they saw a vegan was rising and it was 10, 15% growth rate every year, they said, oh, we can do that. We can offer you all something vegan, you know, we can offer you all plant based. That's what you're saying you want, but highly engineered.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Consumer]

Yeah. The question of economics, though, comes up too.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But then on a farm, I'm just wondering if I wanted to go full fledged and turn my backyard into a farm, would the economics add up? Would the, you know, depending upon what I grew, vegetables are expensive. Now I'm one of those people who, when I shop, I go two and three times a week. I like going shopping.

[Jamila Norman]

I like you looking at me like.

[Consumer]

Oh, okay, that was.

[Jamila Norman]

Especially if you're shopping. Sorry.

[Consumer]

You know, I mean, I, I like the, you know, most people when they go, when they, they. Well, I know I do. You go. If you're looking for someplace to live. The first place I want to know, besides the dry cleaning is who are the grocery stores around me? Because I, you know, some of these stores have really made it an experience. You know, you go to Wegmans or if you. Or Trader Joe's. Two totally different experiences. And then Whole Foods too. So I like the experience of going to the grocery store every day. Plus I find that when I buy vegetables, I do not use them quick enough and I hate for them to go bad.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But I really am wondering, what if I wanted to really go home today and begin transforming my backyard into a full throttle farm? Full throttle. Just place for where I could go.

[Jamila Norman]

Out, get a potato, get a, get.

[Consumer]

A green pepper, get some herbs. Right. Like you and your wife did. Is that a possibility for me? Like, I mean, I know it's a big feat.

[Podcast Host]

You know, how many people does it.

[Consumer]

Take and how many people does it take? Right, right, right. So, I mean, my husband's gonna be mad at me. Cause I'm gonna be like, you gotta get up too and do this.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it is work. You know, it's funny, like, following people on social and they're like, you know, like, my girlfriend's into, like, you know, designer bags. They're like. But my wife is into, like, gardening. And the thing you're saying is you're gonna spend a lot of money. Like, you think, oh, we're gonna grow our own vegetables. All people think are, like, seeds and soil, and they think, that's it.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

And you're like, you gotta water it. You got, like, there's, you know, you gotta fertilize. Like, sometimes it don't all make it.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

And you know what I mean? There's loss. There's. You know, so there is. There's gonna be an upfront cost, and there's. You're gonna need to work. You gotta put the work in. You know what I mean? Like, it does not grow itself. This idyllic sense of, like, oh, vegetables.

[Consumer]

Are just out there.

[Jamila Norman]

You just put the seeds and they just grow. And I just go and, you know, have a Disney princess moment and just.

[Consumer]

Pick it and take your Instagram pictures and you're good.

[Jamila Norman]

Put in the work. And it is a. The payback period is a little bit long. So I get a lot of people that reach out to me because I have the show. And, you know, we do all these transformations. I will say, like, average. First of all, we advertised that we needed you to spend a minimum 40,000, but the average transformation took us about 60, 70, 80. Some people were spending over a hundred thousand American dollars. Yes.

[Consumer]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

And how big of a space we're talking about?

[Jamila Norman]

We talking about a backyard.

[Consumer]

Talking about a backyard.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. You know, but it's like setting up all that infrastructure so, like, Atlanta has a lot of trees. You cannot grow vegetables under trees.

[Podcast Host]

That was our problem with our garden.

[Jamila Norman]

You do, like, you need full sun.

[Consumer]

I see you were saying that with the shade.

[Jamila Norman]

So. Yeah, sometimes. First thing we had to do was clear some trees.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know how much it is to clear one tree?

[Podcast Host]

Let me tell you, something.

[Jamila Norman]

Got deep and gutter.

[Podcast Host]

We have oak tree in our backyard. And, you know, where we live, there's an ordinance. You can't cut down oak trees.

[Jamila Norman]

Right? Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, they're magical trees, but, I mean, so you're having a. Get some sun. So we always encourage people. Well, we could put the garden in the front yard, but nobody wants it in the front. You know, everybody wants to put baby in the back. I'm like, stop trying to put the garden in the back. Like, you trying. Like, you ashamed of it. Full sun. Like, so you need full sun. And then people might have to do some grading. You know, sometimes, like, things are hilly. Irrigation, drainage, all of that. You know, you can't plant in the area that's just gonna have a lot of water. Like, it's just gonna suffocate. Your plants, they're not gonna grow well. So it was just like, all of that stuff. And then if you want it pretty and you want the raised beds and, you know, your compost area and all of that, like, it adds up. So you had.

[Consumer]

You had me up until. This is where I leave you.

[Jamila Norman]

And when you start and then you just realizing, like, oh, I need to go get this, and you're like, just. I mean, I gotta get tools. I gotta get.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

I'm like, this stuff is expensive.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But I guess little by little, you.

[Jamila Norman]

Know what I mean?

[Podcast Host]

More compost.

[Consumer]

Yeah. Right, right.

[Jamila Norman]

How much. How much is compost?

[Consumer]

Right? And yesterday we were talking about the fact that, you know, the deer and the fox come. I have seen. I've seen my neighbors, and they defend this.

[Jamila Norman]

I'm telling you, it's like, oh, my goodness. Never felt so, like, connected to Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd and all of that.

[Podcast Host]

It makes sense. It totally makes sense.

[Jamila Norman]

It makes so much sense. You're like, I want to get a shotgun. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Like Peter Rabbit. I finally understood Peter Rabbit.

[Jamila Norman]

Right? You finally understand Peter Rabbit, and you finally understand all these things, and you're like, the animals just come out of nowhere. Like, right now I am right now. Last couple nights ago, I'm googling deer fence, trying to figure out critter. Like, critter borders. So I got to get rabbits out of there. Groundhog. Not groundhog. Moles. They come from underneath. They come from underneath.

[Consumer]

Oh, but two words. We talked about this yesterday. Fox pee. What am I gonna find? I understand you can buy it.

[Jamila Norman]

The Internet, man.

[Consumer]

And then I said to myself, how they getting it?

[Podcast Host]

I heard it's probably. Some of. It's like, genetically, I can't.

[Jamila Norman]

I can't. I can't with the Internet. It's too much information out there. But, yes, I've heard.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know what up.

[Consumer]

I was in service one day, and the p. The pastor was talking about something he was talking about.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. People say, I've seen the Internet say you can use fox pe. I mean, how do you get. Depending on how.

[Consumer]

How do you even get it?

[Jamila Norman]

How real you want to keep it?

[Consumer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

So, you know, we're animals, too.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

So you.

[Consumer]

You.

[Jamila Norman]

You can go. You can go. You can go lay out your scent on the perimeter. Too.

[Podcast Host]

Never thought of that.

[Consumer]

No.

[Jamila Norman]

We already ate like a predator, so.

[Podcast Host]

You can go, well, that's real. You just threw some real.

[Jamila Norman]

Whoa. I mean.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, okay.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, we were talking about it at the farm the other day. I was like, bro, you might have to go and hit the corners of the woods, because these deer are eating up my food.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

But. Yeah, you know, and they are bold. Oh, they don't care. But you got to keep it up, though, if you're gonna do this, because after the rain washes the sun, toss. So you.

[Podcast Host]

It's a lot of work.

[Jamila Norman]

That's a lot.

[Podcast Host]

And that was our experience. It's a cute idea.

[Jamila Norman]

It's cute.

[Podcast Host]

You know, and again. And during COVID it was great because it was just the three of us.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, right.

[Consumer]

And the time.

[Jamila Norman]

And you had that, too.

[Consumer]

Time, time.

[Jamila Norman]

That was the thing. And that's. And I think for my show especially, that's why it kind of went almost a little bit viral, because it was. We launched. First of all, we filmed during COVID During COVID Yeah. And then that was a time where a lot of people were at home. A lot of people were like. I mean, health was so such a big, you know, concern, and people, oh, we got to grow our own food. And it came out at that time, and so it was just, like, perfect timing. And then people just, like, went bananas. You know what I mean? The interesting thing is the production company that I shot with, she said she had pitched that show idea years before, and they was like, nobody wants to see anybody garden, like, garden to turn anything into a farm. Because she worked a lot in home and garden space, and she was like, oh, we transform people's, you know, inside their houses, or, you know, we'll flip a front yard. She's like, why don't we flip it into food? And of course, they were like, what are you talking about? Nobody wants that. And then pitched it again years later, you know, to the right network at the right time. And then, of course, people were like, yeah, but, yeah, I mean, growing food now, there is also an inexpensive way to do things, but it just means a lot of labor.

[Consumer]

Okay?

[Jamila Norman]

So there's, you know, I mean, it's like, you can use the soil in your backyard, right? Like, you can go and, like, dig up until the virgin soil and, you know, add compost and things like that. And don't have raised beds and, you know, go out there with your watering can. But, like, you know, it's time, time, time and money.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know what I mean? Those are the kind of two things that you're sort of traded. And then, you know, when you do it in that way, it also takes a longer time because we just got clay out here in Georgia, all the top solids in the Mississippi river, you know, back when, you know, they got us off the land and then they tried to farm themselves, didn't know what they was doing, and all that topsoil just blew all the way over to the Mississippi river, you know, and that's why. That's what. Yeah. And so then we got. Right, look. Wow.

[Podcast Host]

You know, it makes so much sense.

[Jamila Norman]

Yep. Then we got all the ag universities. And so when you hear Martin Luther King have that speech where he was talking about, you know, and then. And then the US government came in and, you know, and they created schools to teach them white farmers how to farm. Then they gave us this. This was after they kicked us off the land and sent us up north. And then they tried their hands at it and just, Just raped the land. Just. It was that. That's why we have no topsoil in Georgia. We're at the clay layer. You go up north, New York. Oh, my God. The soil up there, amazing. You know what I mean? Farmers up there, like, they did. It's just black soil, you know, like certain parts of the country that hadn't experience that extractive agricultural practice.

[Consumer]

So New Jersey is the Garden State.

[Jamila Norman]

So I'm feeling a little ahead.

[Consumer]

That's where I'm from.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Consumer]

Okay.

[Jamila Norman]

They used to have huge greenhouses. They grew a lot of flowers in New Jersey back in the day. But we've exported a lot of local floral growing to other countries, and now they're trying to rebuild that. That industry back in the US but so much.

[Podcast Host]

There is something about. Again, it goes back to the luxury, though.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

In terms of supporting local farmers.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

We get a lot of our vegetables from like, fresh harvest.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, where you, you actually getting vegetables from the farm. They get delivered to you.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But again, that's an expense.

[Jamila Norman]

It's an expense.

[Podcast Host]

It's, It's.

[Consumer]

I have done this. I have shared it. I mean, well, one, the expense to just. When you go and you get these. Oh, it's escaping me where you go and you, you, you, you get fruit and, and vegetables.

[Jamila Norman]

Like a vegetable subscription program. Like a csa.

[Consumer]

Exactly.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But it was so much that we split it.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

Just so much stuff.

[Jamila Norman]

Or that we lose it.

[Consumer]

And that was nice. And it's actually. They give you whatever. You don't know what it is.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, it's whatever is in cd. Yeah.

[Consumer]

And it's just like, I mean, there are a couple things I'm like, I don't even know. Okay, this is a rutabaga. Okay. Like, do I have a recipe for a rutabaga?

[Jamila Norman]

Right. You know what I mean?

[Consumer]

You have to go to the Internet. And that was fun going through that process and figuring out, all right, how do I get the hodgepodge of everything that is grown from the land and make it work? Because you really can make it work. And it was a healthier process and choice.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. It's a commitment and a lifestyle, you know what I mean? Even though like we used to say to people at market, I'm like 15 years in this year, which is a little bit mind blowing to me farming, but we used to say, look, you can pay us or you can pay your doctor. You know what I mean? It's gonna be way more expensive. So it is a, it's a choice. Like, you know, definitely for some people it is a luxury, you know. And so we also participate in programs where like we make sure we accept EBT in every market that we're at. And then there's a couple or there's some organizations that we work with that makes. Where if you're spending your ebt it's like 50% off. So it's like half price. Like, so we try to create opportunities for like where it's accessible and price is not an issue for people. You know what I mean? So try to make things affordable. But again, like you were saying, even with the meat, like when you do the calculation over time, you are saving more and you are getting a better quality. Right. Shopping at Whole Foods is expensive. If you're thinking, I'm going to transition if they, I'm going to just go shop, I like a whole food or something like that. Yeah, you just coming out of pocket on stuff. But if you go to your local farmer's market right around the city and more and more are popping up and you're buying things in season, you end up having a lot less food waste because it's fresher. It doesn't go bad as fast. Like people will be like, I bought that from you and that thing lasted like two weeks in the refrigerator. It lasted like three weeks, you know, because it's literally picked a day or two ago.

[Podcast Host]

Sure, right. So.

[Jamila Norman]

So it's much fresher. Right? So it's fresher, it lasts longer, it's better for you. But you also have to be committed to know how to, like, cook.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

With fresh ingredients. Yeah. You know, and then, you know, some people also go into, like, you know, if you. Let's say right now, we're very abundant in greens. Oh, my God. It's like collards and kale. Like, it's just. This is the season, Springtime. All the greens are just abundant.

[Consumer]

I got to come see.

[Jamila Norman]

Go buy. You know, I mean, you buy a bunch of it if you have the space. Like, cut it up, stick it in the freezer. Like, I'm still eating some things that, like, I put away, you know, from last year, you know, so it's a whole lifestyle shift, you know, but if you're just like, ooh, I'm gonna just throw a little healthy on top of, you know, what I already be doing.

[Podcast Host]

You know, I'm gonna drink this Diet Coke with these fries.

[Jamila Norman]

Burger and fries. Let me put a little leak beef.

[Consumer]

Oh, my.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, Triple bypass burger.

[Podcast Host]

We're actually triple bypass.

[Consumer]

There. There is this place out in. Maybe y' all know it, it's out in Las Vegas. And it is called. It's not called triple bypass, but it's something like that. It's a playoff of word off of a heart attack.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Consumer]

And they come. They come in and you. You get on a scale, and if you weigh over 450, your food is free. Like, it's a whole thing.

[Jamila Norman]

All. All the.

[Consumer]

The waitresses are dressed.

[Jamila Norman]

I think it's like something coronary, something corn.

[Consumer]

Yeah. All the wages are just like they're at a hospital. But it's a whole thing. And all the food is big and, you know, a thousand calories a plate. I can't remember, maybe somebody if you're over 450. Yeah. Something around, and you get up on a scale in front of everybody.

[Jamila Norman]

Oh, my.

[Consumer]

But, you know, that's just. That's just our culture. We have such big. We do have big offerings and servings.

[Jamila Norman]

We waste. Yeah. Food. Waste a lot of food. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's changed. Yeah. You know, that's changed over the years, too. Super size me. Make it big. That's, you know, the American way. Everything's bigger and better and bigger and, you know. But. Yeah, it's crazy.

[Consumer]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Jamila Norman]

It's crazy.

[Podcast Host]

We're actually seriously considering. With another families, really, really close friends. They've got a lot of space in their backyard. We're really considering investing in a greenhouse.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, because of. Because of where they are. They're, you know, they're deer and their Father.

[Jamila Norman]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

And whatnot. So we're like, we're, we're. My wife is doing the research now. Greenhouse.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you know, we understand it's a lifestyle.

[Consumer]

Yeah, that sounds like a real big, you know, change and investment.

[Jamila Norman]

Invest.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Hey comrades, if you are enjoying the episode, join the conversation. Like subscribe. Leave a comment below. Don't get yourself blocked.

[Consumer]

Keep it clean with the greenhouse. So before I go to YouTube University. So you have the greenhouse, which specifically is for what as opposed to an outside garden. What's your idea about what you want to do?

[Podcast Host]

It's enclosed.

[Jamila Norman]

It is, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So. So it would, you know, to help to prevent the animals.

[Consumer]

So it's mainly just an animal thing. But I thought there were some things that you just grow in a greenhouse. Or am I wrong about that?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I think, I think that's the point. Growing it in the greenhouse to keep the.

[Jamila Norman]

So, yeah. So I mean, what a greenhouse, definitely you have an enclosed structure.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, they haven't figured out how to open doors just of yet, you know. Right, right, right, right. You know, with that. But then also you'll be able to grow things longer and earlier. Right. Because. Because of the season, you know. Right. Because now it's keeping things warmer than just being outdoors. Right?

[Consumer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

So a little different. So. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So you know, that's what we're, that's. That's the, that's where we're.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Because you can. Y' all thinking like a big beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I have. What kind of. We're, we're doing research now. I know. We're doing the research now.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

She's about to make you an episode.

[Podcast Host]

What's the cost effectiveness?

[Jamila Norman]

Uh huh. I'll.

[Podcast Host]

I'll put you there. For my wife.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. I'm like, not. Because I've like when I lived in Athens, I had a friend, his dad had a greenhouse. I mean they had money. This greenhouse was gorgeous. I mean he was pulling out tropical fruit. He had a. You know, because most like greenhouses. So there's like passive. Right. A passive greenhouse where you're not adding any heat or anything like that. It's just like sun's coming in, heating things up. But if it gets really, really cold, it's. Eventually it's going to be cold inside. I mean it only can keep it warm to a certain level. Then there's like actively heat in the greenhouse where you have heaters in there, whether it's electric or something like that. And that way you maintain a certain temperature all year long, no matter What? And so he had this huge greenhouse and instead of buying like regular heaters, he had a fireplace. Really? Like heated wood in the winter.

[Consumer]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, he had like a little creek running through it. Yeah. You know, oh, you got money. You can build all kinds of things. So it was just like this little mini, Just magical place. Like, man grew everything in that greenhouse. But the possibility. That's six figures.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Consumer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

But yeah, I mean, there is a spectrum of kind of like what you want to create. Sure. You know, and what you want to invest in.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, we probably. We probably won't have the.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah, probably not that.

[Consumer]

No fireplace, mountain.

[Jamila Norman]

Wood and feed to keep your plan.

[Podcast Host]

I love the idea.

[Jamila Norman]

Doesn't it sound just.

[Consumer]

So you know, YouTube University will teach a lot of people a lot of things. I know that you self taught also.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Reading. Reading is fundamental. I grew up reading rainbow. Read a book, people.

[Consumer]

LeVar Burton strikes again.

[Jamila Norman]

Strikes again. Always. He's never out of a.

[Consumer]

Yeah, first.

[Jamila Norman]

No, like, seriously, like, I knew again. I love the outdoors. I grew up like Captain Planet. I grew up with like, I just, I just loved outside. And I went into environmental engineering because I really wanted to be like, you know, I wanted to hug trees and save the world from pollution and all that. I was like a tree hugger. Greenpeace, all of that. That was me from day one. And I knew I was gonna land on some property somewhere and I was gonna be growing some food and just being a Disney princess, you know, with all the animals. And so I used to just read gardening books like people read novels. I just, you know, just consuming information, you know, putting it in there for, you know, when I retire. And yeah, so I, I have a. Actually, I'm like launching on my social, the series of like my favorite garden of books right now. So if people are like, well, what. What are some good books? If I want to start a garden, go to the Instagram, go to the newsletter, whatever. But yeah, so I just consumed all of that. And then once I started, just kind of connected with other farmers and YouTube University, they're like, really? I mean, literally, there are some good people on YouTube that have really great content that are not doing the. Oh, you know, I put a seed in five minutes later. Like, they're giving you like the real, real. So just like between all of that, that's how I really just kind of taught myself.

[Podcast Host]

So are you, Are you, you teaching and consulting?

[Jamila Norman]

I am not teaching and consulting just because I'm running a farm. That's a lot yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So how many people. How many people do you work with?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, so we have myself and three other people that work with me, and we all. All black people run a farm.

[Consumer]

Wow.

[Jamila Norman]

Like, we grow year round, seasonally, producing. I mean, right now, I mean, the property is just an acre and a half. So it's. It's big for the city, and you can produce a lot on an acre. So about, you know, somewhere around £10,000 of food that we produce yearly. And we just sell every single week, you know, at the farm stand and multiple markets. So my employees at market right now selling food, you know, we had people at the farm stand, you know, yesterday on the farm. You can come to the farm and buy every Friday through five. I mean, three to six. Yeah. Where's the farm? The farm is in Atlanta. Like, southwest Atlanta, Oakland city. So just south of West End.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, just south of West End.

[Consumer]

I'm thinking about the history that you said and how grocery stores are kind of relatively new. And I remember there was a whole big turn in food when it came to TV dinners. Right. That was a big turn in terms of how. Then we have, you know, the fda and we talk about the four food groups, and there's, like, a lot of information that were being sold. I feel like now we're in the. In this. In the. In the time of just excess. And, like, when I go online, when you see YouTube and you see somebody, you know, make cheese fries with pepperoni and then put it in the oven, and, I mean, the stuff that they have out there, it feels like we are in that era of excess when it comes to food abundance of the wrong type.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

And I'm curious about what your assessment is in terms of where we are with how the media is portraying food and how we're consuming it.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. And I think, yes, I'm there with you on. Sometimes I look at the food content, and I'm like, do we really have to take macaroni and cheese and wrap it with bacon?

[Consumer]

That's right.

[Jamila Norman]

And then fry it and then dip.

[Consumer]

It in a sauce.

[Jamila Norman]

Right, exactly. And then put some hot honey on it. Right, exactly. Put it on top of a waffle with girl, two scoops of truly. That is. What is Benedict sauce? You know what I mean?

[Consumer]

Right. And it's good for breakfast and lunch, you know, Truly.

[Jamila Norman]

Good for the casket, too. You know what I mean? So it's like, there's a lot of that, but then it's also not my world. So I'm in a very different world because that's the world I'm in. Like, I'm growing fresh vegetables and like, you know, we're at market and it's like green city and, you know, all of that. So the, the regular media will have you going a certain way. Right. Because you have, you have big ag and you have these big companies that have invested millions and billions of dollars in our food system.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Jamila Norman]

And they are the very same people that have also invested in our healthcare system. So there is a direct correlation of them wanting you to eat a certain thing so that you can end up in their doctor's offices.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

So that you can be on their medication.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

I don't want you dead. They want you alive and continuing to buy medication. To buy medication. Right. And all of that is like a really big engineered system. So, like, when I went to University of Georgia, you know, I realized, like, you know, they have food sciences and, you know, I mean, you don't really think about, like, what food science is. You're like, oh, I'm going to learn about veggies. No, food sciences is like. Like, I'm in the lab and I'm figuring out how we engineer food to make it addictive for people. They're figuring out what are the key markers in your food that really attaches to your pleasure senses. You know, like, people go to food for comfort, people go to food for culture, for all kinds of things. They just want you eating, eating, eating, eating, eating. Right. And so all of that stuff and all those middle aisles of the grocery store, that's it. I mean, like, it's sugar, it's fat, it's salt. By design, by design, by design. And so when I say to people, it's not just free will, because you actually don't have free will if you're just following the standard American protocol of, like, I go to the grocery store, I buy my stuff here. Like. Like, right.

[Consumer]

It's part of, you know, just who you are.

[Jamila Norman]

That's the program. You've been trained and programmed to go eat this thing. And then you're sitting there and you're like, oh, my God, that was just one bag of chips. And I'm just down this whole thing. And then your body's like, well, there was no nutrients in that can you, like, your body is now triggering you to eat more because it's looking for nutrients. And you keep buying the same thing. So you're gonna have to eat. Eat more of the same thing unless you shift into something else that is more nutrient dense. Right. Like, but if you Keep eating all those empty calories and highly processed stuff. There's not enough you can consume that meets your actual needs for your body. And that's why people just overeat. And it's just this vicious cycle we.

[Consumer]

Talk about legacy of passing on money down to the next generation. But there's also this idea of passing along good eating and nutrition to the next generation. Is that something that you have thought about with your kids specifically in terms of. All right, I like pizza and tacos. I know we've had that conversation, but I don't want my daughter to necessarily hone in. Are you like specifically cognizant about that and how you pass along your eating habits?

[Podcast Host]

My wife was very intentional in terms of establishing our daughter's palate. So I don't know many five year olds who want asparagus.

[Consumer]

Neither do I.

[Podcast Host]

But like at 5, my daughter, you know, asparagus, mushrooms.

[Jamila Norman]

Wow, Mommy, we want chanterelle mushrooms, bougie, jam, bougie.

[Podcast Host]

For a snack, my daughter would ask for vegan cheese.

[Jamila Norman]

Really?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. So my wife's been very intentional about that. And you know, my daughter, you know, she's not a sugar person. She's never been a candy person. Like Halloween, ever since we started doing trick or treating. My daughter's favorite part of Halloween is when kids come to the house and she can give the candy away.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

At three, four years old, I remember seeing my daughter playing with candy corn like it was toy she was making. She was having a whole thing.

[Consumer]

I could see that though.

[Podcast Host]

But she had no, she had no inclination to eat it. Yeah, like candy bars and stuff that like, if she, like the few times that we've actually gone trick or treating and she's gotten candy, she'll take that candy and save it for when she can give the candy away. But like, she's not a, she's not a, a sweets person at all. And my wife was very intentional about that.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. And I think the, like, the key thing there is like training your palate. Right? So if you start your kids off early with all of that sugar, right. Soft fat, you're training their palate to want that. Right. So my kids, vegetables, all of that from day one. And like, I mean, for us, like, I don't put sugar in a lot of stuff. They don't really eat sugar. So even when we say things like pizza and tacos and things like that look for quality, right. It's not to say you can never eat a pizza because pizza is bad. Right. Because their countries, their Whole culture is pizza.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

They're not walking around 4 or 500 pounds. Right. You have countries where, like, lots of meat, lots of, you know, dairy, lots of butter, lots of fat, pastas. All the things that we would say here in America, oh, my God, stay away from that food. Because that food is bad. It's the engineered. It's the mass produced aspect of that. So, like, if we're gonna eat pizza, we're going to, like, a proper pizza. We're eating the pizza or we're making pizza. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're gonna make it. You know, but, like, you have to train your kids how to see quality and how to see, you know, tell the difference between, you know, this is a good taco, this is a bad taco. This is good pizza. Because, I mean, they're out there in the world like your kids. You don't have them forever. Yeah, they're at school, you know.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

There are other places. So they have to be able to, you know, discern the difference between, like, what's right, good for me and what's not and ask questions at a restaurant.

[Consumer]

You know, I went to this restaurant the other day, so I. Someone did not know that I don't eat fish.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

And so we went to a restaurant.

[Jamila Norman]

It was called Fish.

[Consumer]

So we went in and so I just. Oh, you know, just get some potatoes or something. But they made everything in the same oil. They fried everything in the same. And I mean, that makes it even.

[Podcast Host]

Is it an allergy thing or you just don't.

[Consumer]

Yes, an allergy thing.

[Jamila Norman]

It's both.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Consumer]

And I have the nerve to be a Pisces sign of the fish. But it. It is. It is an allergy thing, and it's just a taste thing, too. But, you know, my sister, she's vegan. I have seen her in the kitchen talking about. Talk about commitment making cheese. And it took her a long time, I'll tell you that. I mean, in my head, it's like, I know that there's some vegan things that I have learned from her and my other sister, but, boy, the time, the commitment.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

And it was good cheese.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But, you know, I was, you know, after a couple movies, I was like, still with that cheese, huh? We wait for it.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

But, yeah, time.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah. You know, time. Especially when you're trying to create the substitutions that, like, you would find.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

You know what I mean? That's the thing about it, you know, like my family, Jamaican, Trinidadian, we grew up Muslim, lived in New York. Like, My palette is very global. And when you have a very global palette, you realize, like, Indian food and so many other cultures have just naturally vegan. They do, like, you know, stuff and you know what I mean? So, like, when you expand your sort of, like, what you're cooking to go beyond just like your standard American diet or just cuisine, then the whole need for kind of like trying to replace, you know, the meat version into the vegan version of this thing, I don't think it. For me, it's not as much like, I don't have that need to be like, oh, I gotta eat, you know, vegan cheese, because I just miss cheese. Like, I don't know. I eat so many things. I don't even have cheese as a ingredient.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

To begin with. Right to begin with. Yeah. And so I think, you know, I always say to people, especially people who are either considering veganism or want to go into it, I'm like, expand your palette. Expand it. Because that way you're not sort of stuck in trying to only work with maybe one cuisine and then trying to make that fit into a new lifestyle.

[Podcast Host]

But then you also gotta. You gotta. You gotta bypass the programming.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You have to do a little bit more active work. Because what's easiestly. What's easiest accessible is all. Yeah, the junk.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly. It's all the junk.

[Consumer]

And what's crazy is that if you think about kids and the problems that they have in school these days, a lot of them, they don't. They don't have the. They don't eat a lot of food. They're not. They don't have the means to eat food. So when they go to school, that's when they get it. And so it's like we're in the world of excess with all these foods and things of that nature. But then kids go to school and they don't have enough food. They come hungry to schools and, I.

[Jamila Norman]

Mean, school lunches are horrible.

[Consumer]

Oh, they're terrible.

[Jamila Norman]

But they didn't used to be. Yeah.

[Consumer]

Wait, y' all remember.

[Jamila Norman]

Horrible.

[Consumer]

Y' all remember the square pizza? Do you remember the square pizza I used?

[Jamila Norman]

No, I did not eat that. I did not eat that square pizza. No, but I read the square. That dough was barely baked, man. That was barely baked. It was dough.

[Consumer]

Then the cheese would not quite.

[Jamila Norman]

It would melt.

[Consumer]

It did the M and the E.

[Jamila Norman]

But it wouldn't do the full M, E, L, T. No.

[Consumer]

Right.

[Jamila Norman]

It didn't cross over that.

[Consumer]

He went for Pizza Day.

[Jamila Norman]

He went for Pizza Day. We all. I would like My parents, they, they, they were little hippies back in the 70s, you know, so we packed our lunches. But and it's interesting because I will say again, like, I lived in New York, then I moved to Connecticut and then we came to the South. And I remember in elementary school in Connecticut, because we lived in Hartford and then New London, they were cooking food like from scratch. Like from scratch. They got vegetables and whatever in every.

[Podcast Host]

Day at the school.

[Jamila Norman]

At the school. Elementary school.

[Consumer]

Wow.

[Jamila Norman]

And they cooked. And we would go up and you, I mean, you had, you had the hot lunch line, you had the cold lunch line. This is elementary school. You had salad line, the grinders. But you know, we call them like, they call them grinders in, in Connecticut, but like no hoagies or what we call subway sandwiches. Fresh, fresh. Like they cut open the bread.

[Consumer]

Really?

[Jamila Norman]

This is elementary school. So we had like public school. This is regular public school, but in certain school, just. And then when I move to the South, I was like, what? What is this?

[Consumer]

What is this?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, what is this? What are they feeding us? What is this? Heat and serve. Pre frozen people are not cooking. But then there are people whose grandparents are like, oh, yeah, they used to be the lunch lady. They used to cook back in the day in schools.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

So again, that became co opted. Yes. And that, that whole. Right, so this is what, this is also what's happening right now. Like when we're looking at our current shall not be named president, okay. And all of his people, there is this constant takeover of corporate America, of government. Right. And so big Ag saw, whoa, government is feeding a bunch of kids. That's a lot of money we could be making. If we start lobbying Congress, we could be the ones that are serving, you know what I mean, where people were shopping, buying vegetables, you know, whatever that process was. So they co opted that. So now the cafeterias are controlled by corporations, Cisco. Like they don't. City of Atlanta does not control Atlanta Public Schools cafeteria. So the first farm I had was at a public school. It was at a middle school. It was a functioning middle school. It is literally, it was like, you know, 20ft to the back door of the cafeteria. And we were like, perfect, we're going to grow vegetables and we're going to get into the cafeteria and these kids gonna be eating good food. No, they don't control the cafeteria, Cisco. This big ginormous company. They're like, oh, you would have to get a contract with them. They service the school district. They have jurisdiction over the cafeteria. So we were talking to A cafeteria lady, she's like, we are. We're renting space from them. They run, and so they just bring. She said, nothing. We don't cook anything here.

[Consumer]

So I was speaking.

[Jamila Norman]

So it's that level of control, and then that's what you're feeding kids when that's the only option they have to eat. And then we got the school, the prison pipeline, and then kids can't sit in their chair. And then this. I mean, it's just.

[Consumer]

It's all connected.

[Jamila Norman]

It's all connected and just diabolically crazy. Diabolic. Diabolical.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Like, it's intentional.

[Jamila Norman]

It's so intentional.

[Consumer]

I was speaking to our producer, Troy, about black Wall Street. You remember the gentleman who oversees that? He was saying that exact same thing I was telling him.

[Jamila Norman]

I'm like, oh, wow.

[Consumer]

He was really breaking down the food thing.

[Podcast Host]

Black Wall street in Atlanta.

[Consumer]

In Atlanta.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

Exactly. In Atlanta. And so what he was saying was that if you think for a moment that the money that they're taking from farmers.

[Jamila Norman]

Right, okay.

[Consumer]

Especially black farmers that they don't have a plan B for. Just like you said, to have corporations come in.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly.

[Consumer]

That's exactly what they're doing. He said this is the best time for anybody. And we weren't even talking about farming.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Consumer]

He just brought. He's like, this is the best time to have a farm, he says, because corporate is coming in and the government. He's in his opinion, is coming in, and they want to see every single place. They're chopping down everything as we see where they can make money. They can. And this is the best time, he said, to have a farm.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And connect to the people. Because it's a money grab right now. It's a money grab by corporate America in government. They've spent a lot of years letting us know that government doesn't work, government is bad. All that. And not to say there aren't issues in government. There definitely are issues in government. I worked in government for 10 years in environmental protection, so I definitely see the issue. But that transition of privatizing, that's what's happening is they want. That's a big Government has the biggest contract, right? And they want that. No, we don't need individual farmers feeding and providing vegetables to, you know, local school districts and food banks. I big ag. I want to be the one to do it right? So I'm going to dismantle whatever system is in place so that I can be the one to come in and I will feed you what I think you should eat. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

They will privatize everything.

[Jamila Norman]

They want to privatize everything. That's what's happening. They want to privatize everything. And by everything, we do mean everything.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

They want the post office, they want the radio stations, they want everything. Think about any service that government provides. They want to come in water.

[Podcast Host]

Did you ever think we'd have to pay for water, like, as a kid? Everything. We have to pay for air.

[Consumer]

Right, true.

[Podcast Host]

You know?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah. They trying to figure that out next. So, yeah, so, I mean, so it's so, so, so, so important to. As much as you can figure out how you can get connected to these. Essentially right now it's like fringe, you know, communities and alternate systems of, like, plugging back into people that are growing your food, plugging back into people that are making clothes. We think of farms. We only think food. Farms are food, clothing, shelter, medicine, all the things.

[Consumer]

Sure, sure.

[Jamila Norman]

Okay. Yeah. We ran away from cotton, but cotton is what most people wear.

[Consumer]

That's exactly.

[Jamila Norman]

Hello.

[Consumer]

And you're going to take, you know, animals and knit from what they have.

[Jamila Norman]

Right? Animals and knit. Right, okay.

[Consumer]

And make forestry.

[Jamila Norman]

That's agricultural. That's our houses. Okay. And really all of that.

[Consumer]

And pass it along to the next generation. I remember being in Montessori school. What age is that?

[Jamila Norman]

You went to Montessori?

[Podcast Host]

You went to Montessori?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, I'm like, my kids went to Montessori.

[Podcast Host]

That makes so much sense.

[Consumer]

Does it? Okay, wait, I love that.

[Jamila Norman]

I'm like, you went to Montessori?

[Consumer]

I went to Montessori school. And I remember. And you know what? This is all connection now. This is. Y' all are helping me out here. We had a day where each of us, we would go upstairs and we would make bread from scratch. And it was just one person who was.

[Jamila Norman]

It was a one on one thing.

[Consumer]

And I would knead it and all that. And then it would bake. It was so beautiful. You could smell the yeast. Oh, you know that smell. And we put it in a bag and the bag would be just a.

[Jamila Norman]

Little bit greasy from the butter.

[Consumer]

And honestly, to this day, the best thing I make. But I do make a lot of good things, but I make a good bread.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

You know, and I'm thinking, of course that makes sense because I was little and I was. I was literally kneading bread and all that really stuck with me.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing how those small experiences. So it's like so important to infuse that into schools, into kids Lives into, like, you know, the things that they, you know, do and have access to. Because. Yeah, I grew up making bread. I love making bread. Yeah.

[Consumer]

What kind of bread?

[Jamila Norman]

I mean, all kinds of bread.

[Consumer]

It's all kinds of bread.

[Jamila Norman]

But I'm not really a sourdough gal. I'm gonna say that. Like, I just never got into, like, sour.

[Consumer]

Yeah. Like that little kid. That little acidy stuff. Yeah. I'm not with that either. I'm really, like, more of, like a yeast roll.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. I do rolls. I like flatbreads and, you know, like. Yeah. I went to Italy with a friend and, you know, we went to a pasta making class, and the guy was like, wow, you're really good. I was like, yeah. I mean, bread, you know, because you just gotta need the pasta, though. He was like, wow. I was like, yes, I make bread. You know what I mean? But, like, I love it. I mean, there's no bread better than either, like, bread that you make or, like, you're buying from somebody else that's making it fresh. I mean, you're like, my God, what am I eating in the store?

[Podcast Host]

I've had sourdough in the refrigerator right now.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

Really?

[Jamila Norman]

I know.

[Podcast Host]

She's making.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And then. So once a year. Once or twice a year, my wife and daughter go to this Earth skills.

[Jamila Norman]

Oh, yeah. Oh, what's that?

[Consumer]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

So this one that's. We're going to one next month in. In North Carolina, basically, you go. You're pretty much off grid. And their workshops. So it's from learning how to make fires.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Blacksmithing.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But it's all of that. It's all. It's. You're literally learning Earth skills.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

I love that. Do they make you put your phone away and all that?

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're off.

[Jamila Norman]

You're off. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Jamila Norman]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, every. You know, there's. There. There are. There are areas where your phone will work.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because I still. To be in touch with.

[Consumer]

I say you. I think you found those areas, didn't you? Yeah, Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I still have to have contact with them, but you literally go and you learn. So. So they've gone. So this is going to be my first. My first time going.

[Jamila Norman]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Because I'm usually working, but I'm, you know, I'm looking forward because I'm like, I want to take the blacksmithing.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's all of these things. So when we think about. Again, when we think about. I'm all. I'm always talking about the pivot.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And just when we're looking at, you know, what the world is, you know, we don't quite know where the world is going.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

But this is the time to figure out, you know, how we navigate what this is going to turn into. Like, we were talking about the news. We were talking about the news yesterday.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

How I am. I'm backing off of having to be informed on every little thing that's happening. Because what happens the most is, you know, I found about all these little things, and then I just. We sit around and commiserate with our people.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. Up.

[Consumer]

This is.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Whereas now I'm like, my. I need to split that. That energy because my energy is more. It's more useful to spend that energy figuring out.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

What are my pivot points? What are the. What are the new skills that I need to learn? I need to make sure my family knows.

[Jamila Norman]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

So at whatever turn, there are certain skills that we have that are going to help us navigate.

[Jamila Norman]

True, true, true.

[Podcast Host]

For me, that's more useful.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly. Yeah. I.

[Consumer]

We want to report back, too, Mr. Blacksmith.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Consumer]

I want to hear.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah, really?

[Podcast Host]

Because you're gonna.

[Jamila Norman]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

You're going to have some skills to offer.

[Consumer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

At some point, be able to.

[Jamila Norman]

You want to have skills to be able to, like you said, navigate whatever world is coming, you know, or that you create for yourself and for your people. You know what I mean? Because I don't need to just sit around and wait to see what the plan is.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Jamila Norman]

You know, make a plan for yourself. Because we know that is never in our best interests as black people, as people of color in this country. So. Yeah. I'm not waiting around to see what you got in the store, because I know it's not good. Right. So I'm gonna just move with the people that I move with and just do what we can. I have a guy that works with me, He's a farrier people. Like, what is that? He works on horses. Right. And he changes their horseshoe and things like that. But you have to be into blacksmithing to be able to know sometimes you gotta fashion a horseshoe specific to that horse or, you know, do whatever. So, you know, those are skills that our people had. Metal, you know, being able to work with metals, being able to build. You know, men ain't got skills these days. Y' all need to get into some plumbing, some carpentry, some electrical work.

[Consumer]

Yes, some.

[Jamila Norman]

Some. Some land clearance, some farming, some, you know, because I don't know how it.

[Consumer]

Is down here, but up north, if you see new construction I do not see. No, I don't see black.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. And like my family, Caribbean's my mom was like the house that they grew up in, all of her uncles are the ones that built it. My uncle ran the plumbing into the house. So, you know, they used to have kind of like an outhouse. And then, you know, you learned about plumbing and brought water. Like the first in the village to have, you know, running water inside the house. Like they ran the plumbing, you know, they're into electrical, like all these trades, you know, like it's super important. That's how you build community, society. Like, if we don't know how to like physically build a community for ourselves, also going to be at the mercy of somebody else. So you need people in all of those fields both intellectual and very much, you know, hands on farming, growing food. If you eat meat, Do y' all know how to slaughter animals? Do you know how to hunt? I'm starting to think I need to go learn how to shoot.

[Podcast Host]

Right?

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah. You know, I think like all those things are important skills.

[Podcast Host]

I think at the end of the day, whatever direction the world is going to take, it's going to knock us all out of our comfort zone zones.

[Jamila Norman]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Consumer]

True.

[Jamila Norman]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Hey, comrades, come join us on our Patreon page.

[Consumer]

Ah. Where you can get behind the scenes footage, discounts on merchandise and exclusive content.

[Podcast Host]

We'll see you there.

[Jamila Norman]

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[Jamila Norman]

Mmm. Oh. Whatcha eating?

[Podcast Host]

The new banana split cookie from AM pm. All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.

[Jamila Norman]

Wow, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?

[Podcast Host]

I'm sorry, but no, but you can't.

[Jamila Norman]

Split the banana split? Not even a little. Not even a crumb.

[Consumer]

What if.

[Podcast Host]

No, please. Mine. When it's too legit to split. That's cray venience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app AMPM. Too much good stuff. Plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply.