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Not All Hood (NAH) with Malcolm-Jamal Warner & Candace Kelley
029 - COVID, Mistrust, & the Next Pandemic: Dr Keiji Fukuda Explains It All
01:26:40
In this powerful episode of Nah, Not All Hood, Dr. Keiji Fukuda—former Assistant Director-General of the World Health Organization and globally respected epidemiologist—joins Malcolm-Jamal Warner and Candace Kelley for an eye-opening conversation. From his global travels to frontline pandemic response, Dr. Fukuda unpacks the social and environmental roots of health inequity, particularly within Black communities. They explore vaccine skepticism, mask mandates, why some illnesses never seem to disappear in certain populations, and how public health has been politicized. Dr. Fukuda opens up about his creative passions like cello and filmmaking, and how spirituality and balance keep him grounded. The episode also digs deep into pandemic preparedness, why pulling out of WHO would devastate global safety nets, and what’s really at stake when science, politics, and personal freedom collide. This episode is a masterclass in clarity, compassion, and cultural awareness from someone who ha...
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- [00:01]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:03]
Malcolm
Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.
- [00:06]
C
I don't drink at all until 4 o'.
- [00:08]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Clock. We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [00:12]
Malcolm
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up. And suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinkthedrink.com.
- [00:29]
D
No HA initiative on WhatsApp, your personal messages stay private between you and whoever you send them to. So things like the passport numbers for your honeymoon stay between you and your fiance. And that video call for your gran's 80th stays in the family. Even your streaming password stays between you and your college roommates who still ask for it every week in your group chat. Because on WhatsApp, your personal messages are yours. No one else can see or hear them now, not even us. WhatsApp message privately and I think the.
- [01:02]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Difficulty is that when we get around or get away from thinking about is this going to actually help or not and turn it more into are my rights being trampled on or not? Then we get into a really complicated discussion about this is how I feel about rights. You feel about rights differently. And then, you know, it's a completely different discussion. And, and I think that's what happened with COVID You know, we ended up getting into really bad situations because we're, we stopped talking about health and we started talking about other things and it got very complicated and mixed together. Sure. But I think that's the reality of how the world is, you know, it's the reality of how the country is.
- [01:53]
Malcolm
My comrades, welcome to another episode of Nah, Not a Hood. Today we sit down with Dr. Keiji Fukuda, former assistant Director General of the World Health Organization and an epidemiologist since before most of us could even spell it. We talk cultural health equity, whether masks actually work and why some communities get hit harder than others, not by accident, but by design. It's science, culture and straight up clarity from someone who's been in the room where the world's health decisions get. So let's get into it. Enjoy the conversation. I have a question. And because you're a scientist, science and religion seem to be like on opposing sides. So I just curious as to where you fall as a scientist and religion. What do they sit for you?
- [03:03]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I think about it this way. I once tried to explain to my wife how I thought about these things and I Told her, you know, I think I'm a deeply spiritual person, and I'm not a religious person. And I said, the reason is that, you know, there's so many different religions. Is there a right or wrong? You know, you know, who knows? Who knows? I said, the spiritual part comes from, you know, somehow I believe that there are things which are right and things that are wrong, and there are things which are good, and there are things which are bad, and there are things which are really good, and there are things which are evil and these things. And I go to places sometimes, and I think it is overwhelmingly beautiful. It is just so beautiful. You know, like, you go to some places in the world and you're just overwhelmed by it. And I said, somehow believing in things and finding things like that is spiritual for me. So I don't see that as a contradiction to science at all. And, you know, I think of science. Science is simply a good way to ask questions. It's a good way to ask questions because you ask it in a way that it can get answered. It can't ask questions about everything that we want to know. And so it's not like we have facts over here and then belief over here. We have a good way of asking questions in a way that we can answer. And over here, we have an experience in life which affects us differently. But this is how it affects me. And so I simply have never found any kind of conflict.
- [05:02]
C
I love that beauty. Have you ever been moved to tears when you have seen and been in the middle of, like, the beauty and the nature that you're talking about, the beautiful things?
- [05:11]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I have gotten overwhelmed.
- [05:13]
C
Yeah. That has happened to me.
- [05:16]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah. But it may be in a beautiful place. Sometimes I just see, like, I might see a mom and a kid, and I will get really choked up. It'll. I'll just get. I don't know, you just see it and something happens and you think, oh, this is just the rightness in the world.
- [05:34]
C
Yeah.
- [05:35]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And so.
- [05:39]
Malcolm
Yeah, sometimes all. All I need is my kid.
- [05:42]
C
Yeah.
- [05:42]
Malcolm
Then I start crying.
- [05:43]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah.
- [05:44]
C
Yeah. Look, for different reason. Reasons at different times. At different times, it's like, wait, what did you ask me? Okay.
- [05:52]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
All right.
- [05:52]
C
What you like? Yeah. Okay.
- [05:57]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You. That's a different kind of cry.
- [05:59]
Malcolm
No, but sometimes. Sometimes I just look at her and just, like, I'll just well up.
- [06:02]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Just. Yeah, just the.
- [06:04]
Malcolm
The.
- [06:04]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
The.
- [06:05]
Malcolm
Just the beauty of the spirit and.
- [06:09]
C
Yeah. The innocence. Right, too. Just, like, so pure.
- [06:12]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah.
- [06:13]
C
So I'm wondering with balance, the painter, the filmmaker. Like, I know that creatives who are not able to create the way that they want. It is like they eventually implode or they have to find some outlet. Do you have, you know, a room that's filled with canvases that you're painting right now, or.
- [06:32]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
No. Somehow it's all gotten concentrated into music. You know, I practice. I practice. I'm a terrible musician. I'm really bad. But I am totally passionate. I play cello. I practice cello.
- [06:46]
C
There has to be something.
- [06:47]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
So every day, for probably two hours a day, in the morning, I go and torture everybody who's in the house. But I am perfectly happy there. Just sort of. So that's where a lot of it gets converted.
- [07:03]
C
Yeah. I knew there had to be something. There's no way, you know, that the filmmaker and artists in you.
- [07:09]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, also, you know, my daughter is really artistic, my youngest daughter, and she's so much better than I could ever be and so on. So I take pleasure in watching what she does. And then I go and, you know, practice my cello.
- [07:22]
C
Yeah. Now, was that one of those things again? This is, you know, the stereotypes of the culture. You tell me. But that. That mother, especially, that once their child to play an instrument, was that in your family, or did you circumvent that? And this was of your own volition?
- [07:37]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
No, this is my own volition. I caused the trouble. I went and listened to somebody in college. Someone friend of mine said, come listen to this guy play. So I went and sat outside of his practice room, and really, from the first microsecond of hearing a cello, I'd never heard a cello before. It was overwhelming. And ever since then, I've thought, oh, I want to play this. And, you know, I was pretty busy with my career. And so this is the first time in my life that I've taken lessons regularly and practiced regularly, and I am so happy.
- [08:15]
Malcolm
For how long have you been doing it?
- [08:17]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, since we came back from Hong Kong, so. For the last three years, yes.
- [08:21]
C
So two hours every morning?
- [08:22]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
A couple hours every morning.
- [08:24]
Malcolm
The fact that you get two hours.
- [08:25]
C
I know of anything.
- [08:27]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You guys are young. You guys are young and working.
- [08:29]
C
Like, you look good at two hours every morning.
- [08:33]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
No, no, no.
- [08:34]
C
Okay.
- [08:37]
Malcolm
You have good days.
- [08:38]
C
You have to have one. Two hours every morning. Okay, I. I'll believe you, but I'm kind of not. You got to be a little bit good, you know?
- [08:46]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I'll tell you something. Everyone will look at me and I'll tell them I'm no good, and they'll all think, oh, you're. You're lying. And stuff. You're an old Asian guy. You have to play good. You know, thinking about Yo Yo Ma, and I'm thinking, no, I'm an old Asian guy, but I can'. But, you know, like, one of my daughter's friends came over when they were a kid, and they said, Dr. Fukuda, you're always practicing the same thing. Why? I said, because I still don't know how to play it.
- [09:14]
C
Maybe I do believe you.
- [09:16]
Malcolm
I don't practice the same thing long enough. So that's a good. That's actually a good thing.
- [09:20]
C
Yeah. The commitment of two hours in and of itself. What do. Do you do anything every day for two hours. Okay. Besides sleep?
- [09:28]
Malcolm
Sure, sure.
- [09:29]
C
You know what I'm saying?
- [09:31]
Malcolm
If I think about it, I. No, I was gonna say maybe I get two hours in throughout the day, but I don't. I mean, I think. I think recently maybe if I piecemeal some time here and there, I may get an hour in, but it's just not organized. My practice is so unorganized. I'm all over the place. So the fact that you can spend so much time on one thing is really what I need to be doing.
- [09:55]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:55]
Malcolm
But I'm so. I'm just so scattered with, like, there's so many things to practice, and I get so caught up in that. But I really need to put a plan together and actually organize my practice time so I can be more. Make more efficient use of the time, the limited time I have to practice.
- [10:12]
C
Yeah. I'm going to take that from you. What can I do for two hours to be better at that? Besides, though, I do feel like watching TV and films is a process and a part of learning what the art. What's going on in the art world. I do that for two hours, for sure. But in terms of practicing to get better at something, that's a. That's a good. That's a good thing to do.
- [10:34]
Malcolm
That's a blessing.
- [10:34]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:36]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
No, if you. You're lucky, if you have something that you really love.
- [10:39]
Malcolm
Sure.
- [10:40]
C
Yeah.
- [10:40]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Then, you know, all of a sudden, whether it's an hour, two hours, three hours, it almost doesn't matter. It's just that you have that and you want to do it. So when I go traveling and I. I dream about, you know, oh, maybe I can do this, and maybe I'll play it this way or something.
- [10:55]
Malcolm
But there's a. I saw this video and I don't know. I don't remember who the musician was, but he talked about performing. Musicians play on stage maybe 10% of the time. So you spend 90% of your time with your instrument practicing. And oftentimes we don't get into the enjoyment of practicing because the enjoyment comes from being on stage. But, like, if you don't enjoy practicing, then you're missing enjoyment for 90% of.
- [11:33]
C
The time that you're with that instrument.
- [11:35]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:36]
Malcolm
You look like you enjoy practicing.
- [11:40]
C
I. I think you. I think you should start calling your practices performances. There we go. We'll move you a notch.
- [11:48]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, I'm optimistic, and I'm optimistic in this way. I never had a teacher before, and having a teacher who really believes you can do better makes all the difference in the world. And so he's made me believe that I can do better, and he's given me a lot of the tools about how to do it. And so now when I think about it, every once in a while, I think, okay, not bad. And so those things keep me going. But most of it is. I don't know, when I fell in love with it, I stayed in love with it.
- [12:23]
C
You know, you're a serious traveler, and I'm wondering in terms of, you know, the time you took, I don't think were you backpacking, were you hiking? Or were you. But during that time, I think before college. But what. What. What have you learned from other countries and cultures that we should have more of in the United States?
- [12:42]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, there are two things from traveling which really changed everything, literally my life and how I saw things. One of them was I told you about when I traveled the first time and sort of seeing how people lived, you know, completely overwhelmed me. The second thing is that, you know, it was India specifically that overwhelmed me in a way I couldn't figure out. What does this mean? So when I was in medical school, I left medical school for a year to go traveling again, and I went to India to work for half a year. You know, a person I had met said, I know where you should go. And so I went to this tiny town in South India and worked with this Indian organization. And they were part social welfare, and they're part medical, and they worked only with tribal people. And so, you know, and in India, even though the caste system was abolished, the caste system exists, and the tribal people are at the lowest of the low. And so that was one of the best times of my life, working with that group, because I absolutely adored the people I worked with. But what it taught me was India went from this place that was mysterious and exotic to this place where this is like normal people, everyone's like, this is how people live. If I was in the States, they'd be talking about the same things. You live here, people talk about the same things. Those concerns are the same. And so the second lesson, big lesson in my life, was that we are fundamentally the same. Doesn't matter whether. So when I'm at who may have an Iranian delegation and a Chinese delegation and one from Washington D.C. or whatever, and all of a sudden you begin to see, oh, there's a way to talk with everybody, and there's a way to sort of communicate with everybody. And so the lesson, which I wish I could wave a magic wand and it would be true in America is that Americans would have that chance to go overseas and just see other people and learn to live with them and see what they're like. And you begin to find out they're a heck of a lot more like we are, and vice versa. We're a heck of a lot more like they are than we are different. And once you see that, once you see that, then fundamentally a lot of those sort of, you know, stupid things that you have in your head disappear and you simply begin to see, you know, we're all idiots in the same way, we're all great in the same way. And.
- [15:35]
Malcolm
We could use that lesson just within this country.
- [15:38]
C
Yeah, right, right, right.
- [15:39]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Oh, again, that isolation, it kills us.
- [15:42]
C
Yeah.
- [15:42]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, knowing people face to face makes all the difference.
- [15:46]
C
Comrades, if you're enjoying this episode, join the conversation and make sure to, like, subscribe and comment below. Na, na na.
- [15:55]
Malcolm
Because I am curious about something. So one of the things we. One of the ideas behind. Nah. Not all hood is, you know, breaking down stereotypes. Right. So I'm just really curious, like, when I look at you and I know your parents are doctors, your brother is a doctor.
- [16:18]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah.
- [16:18]
Malcolm
As well.
- [16:19]
C
So he says with hesitation, for some reason, like, yeah.
- [16:23]
Malcolm
So I. So I think of, like, the cultural stereotype of, like, Japanese parents, like, making you, you know, you're gonna do this, this is the road you're gonna go down. Yeah, like, that's the cliche. So I was curious, how did you become a doctor?
- [16:40]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
What was your.
- [16:41]
Malcolm
Your foray into becoming a doctor?
- [16:44]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Okay, well, you know, my parents were actually pretty amazing. They didn't really push one way or the other. And when I was younger, I hated the idea of being doctor because there are a lot of them in the family. And I thought, oh, my God, this is the last thing in the world I'm going to do. And in fact, you know, I really love the arts more than anything. I still do, you know, music, painting, movies. And I wanted to become a movie director or a painter. And that was sort of my, you know, what I. What I was going to do with my life and. But I also grew up in a small rural town in Vermont, and there were no other Asians around, and I really wanted to just go away. You know, that was a big drive in my life. So I started traveling. I took a year off from college, and, you know, I worked to make the money and then went traveling, and it took me around the world, and I began seeing things which just completely changed my life. And part of that was, you know, when I went to places like India, I had no idea whether I liked it or hated it. You know, it was, like, overwhelming. But you just see things that you can't imagine exist, but you see them.
- [18:09]
Malcolm
In terms of poverty or in terms of poverty.
- [18:12]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You see, like, how people are living under pieces of cardboard. You see babies underneath there. You see just lots of people who don't have things and so on, and they have a really tough life. So it completely changed everything in my life. And when I got back, it made me realize I have things which I love, but there are things that I want to do in my life. And part of it was I wanted to be overseas. You know, I loved traveling. I love sort of meeting people and going to places. But the other part of it was, I have to do something. And so that took me back to being a doctor, because I thought, if you're going to do something overseas, what is it that's going to let you do it? And I thought, you know, being a doctor is a good way to do it. So that's how I ended up going in that direction.
- [19:04]
Malcolm
So what were you studying at the time? You took a year off of college.
- [19:07]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
So, you know, I took painting classes, I took movie classes, but I took some science classes. You know, I like science. You know, it's fun for me, but it wasn't really. It wasn't the love of my life. But, you know, that's what I wanted to. You know. So I. I sort of had a pretty broad range of things. But then after I came back, then I said, okay, I have to get serious. I'm going to go to medical school. So then I started doing that kind of stuff.
- [19:34]
C
You know, it's so. It's so great having you, because the field of medicine is what everybody is talking about right now, especially in this world of, you know, the measles and people, how they regard the healthcare industry. And I remember growing up, my father would tell me specifically about the world of medicine. If you are in pain, you don't have to be. Not in America, not in, you know, whatever year we were in, you know, 20, 25. If you have pain, there's a way to get something done to make it go away or to help it. There's something out there. And I'm wondering, just in terms of culturally, was that the philosophy that you kind of ascribe to, or was there something else different in terms of what your parents taught you and how you deal with pain, especially with parents who are in the field of medicine?
- [20:23]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, you know, I never really thought about going into medicine in the way that your dad is thinking about it. You know, to be the way I thought about it was, I better learn about disease, and I better learn about why people get sick and understand that stuff. But if I want to go overseas, I want to learn that stuff so I can go back overseas. And so I always kind of knew that I wanted to work on public health and do those sorts of things. And so I understand where your data is coming from. You know, like, the advancements in clinical medicine are unbelievable now, you know, things can get done which couldn't have dreamt about when I was going to school, but it's not what I wanted to do. I really wanted to work on, you know, what do you do about people who are living in those conditions? How do you take care of, you know, big groups of people and so on? That was always the really compelling part for me.
- [21:24]
C
Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, you have that. That uncle or aunt that has that pain since 1982, and they're still dealing with it. They just. They never, ever address it. Because I know. I know a lot of people like that. I don't know if you know a lot of people like that, but that's kind of. We all have that in our. I know. Especially in a lot of black communities.
- [21:43]
Malcolm
I got the gout.
- [21:43]
C
Yeah, I got the gout. I've had it. I've been dealing with it. I've got this cane. You know, the cane is from 63, and you're still dealing with it. So just how we kind of all look at medicine and deal with it, it really depends upon, you know, where we come from and I guess, really our economic situation.
- [22:02]
Malcolm
What's your access.
- [22:03]
C
Yeah, what's your access, actually, to medicine? And I would imagine, too, that you wanting to access people kind of on A larger scale in the public is a totally different dynamic.
- [22:15]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, it's only because I traveled. Because, you know, the part that most people understand is you get sick, you feel really bad, and you go see a doctor, and that can really help. You know, I have gout. And, you know, I was once told, gout's the perfect disease to have because you can treat it and you can completely treat it and you will never have pain again. And it's true. And so on. And that's a reference point for most people. You know, you get sick or you get a family member that's got cancer, something like that. But for me, the reference point was just traveling and getting slammed by what I saw. And that's what really set me in.
- [22:53]
Malcolm
Motion, how I'm, you know, curious, like, how much, you know, politics gets in the way of everything. Right. But so when you think of. So as I hear you talk about, you know, wanting to be able to help people and. And the whys of why people, you know, have certain conditions. But I also assume that there's so much of it that's out of your control in terms of you can get to, let's say, like the medical or science reason why. But let's say access to those medications also can be a barrier for a lot of people, right?
- [23:33]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah. You know, my thinking about what's medicine, what's health, what's public health, completely changed during my career. You know, when I was younger, I learned all the technical stuff. You know, why do people get sick? If you learn epidemiology, you know, what do these graphs mean? Or, you know, how does disease spread through a population? And, you know, this is all technical stuff, the kinds of things which most practitioners are thinking about. But once you actually start working, you really begin to see that if you're really going to work on health, you better understand why. Are social conditions the way they are? What does access mean? If you don't have access, the rest of the stuff doesn't matter. If you live in places which are inherently going to make you vulnerable, you might be a migrant population, you might be running from war, you might be living in a community which is near toxic materials and so on. These are the things which really underlie health. And once you begin working on it and seeing it, you begin to realize there's a vast amount of reasons why people end up the way they do.
- [24:57]
C
And what are some of those reasons? Because I think that's what a lot of people are stuck on. It's like, why, like, if we look at the black community. Why do we keep seeing the same? Cancer, hypertension, obesity, obesity, heart attacks, even HIV in the female black population is higher. Why do we keep seeing the same when, for the history of, let's say, government has been in existence since we're talking about, you know, who, for example, or the cdc, we working on this for such a long time. Why are we still seeming like we haven't, you know, moved the needle in that regard? It feels like we're at the same place.
- [25:39]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, you know, I think we've moved the needle some, meaning that. I do think that a lot of the technical things about health have gotten better. You know, medicines have gotten better, different understandings about disease have gotten better. But if you go back to those same patterns, you know, why do we end up having people doing things which aren't helpful to them, you know, which harm them? Part of it's how they grow up, how they're exposed to things. Part of them is if you don't have access to people who show you how you can live healthy, you know, you don't have that in your head. You don't have those role models and so on. And then some things are just physically in the environment. If you live in an area where there's a lot of particulate matter in the air or there's chemicals in the water and things like that, you're going to be maybe susceptible to diseases caused by those things. If you live in an area where there's violence and so on and, you know, randomly, you can get hurt or something like that. You know, that's something which is in your environment. And so if you look at all of those things, what's in the environment, what are we taught to do? Do we have role models about being healthy or not? Do we have access to good food? Do we have access to healthy relationships and so on? Can we get out of isolation? You put all of those things together and it's a lot, you know, and it's why, you know, those are a lot of the fundamental reasons why groups. Some groups of people do less well than others.
- [27:18]
C
Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, the fundamentals seems like to be the thing that. Well, then where do we get those fundamentals? I mean, like, where do we all learn our fundamentals? Yeah, there's additions or, you know, what are our parents teaching us specifically? Or a lot of it is, you know, social. That's right. And then people don't have time, so they leave it to the school system. And I don't know about you, but I Didn't learn a lot about, okay, you know, anything having to do with your field or viruses. When I was in high school, I'm trying to think about it. I know we learned some things, but it wasn't about anything that had to do with, you know, Ebola or influenza or any, any of those things. Not in the way that we're talking about it today.
- [27:58]
Malcolm
But it feels like it's so, it feels like it's so much. Like there are so many just, just all of the things that you just named, you know, conditions, lifestyle. Like, it feels like there's, there's so much that we're fighting to maintain a healthy lifestyle, whether it's, you know, physically healthy, mentally healthy, emotionally healthy. Like, we, we were talking on another podcast with Jamila Norman, who was a farmer, and, you know, we're talking about how just eating healthy is a luxury at this point. Right? Like, just having access to, like, you know, we, we get our, our meats from a butcher. Right. And, you know, our, you know, our meats are, you know, the grass fed and pasture raised, but everyone doesn't have access to that. Right. So at some point, you. It's like, it can be, I don't know, it could be stressful or discouraging, you know, all at once. Yeah. Because there's so much, like, there's so much thrown up against us.
- [29:04]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, there's so much. But on the other hand, we can make it easier on ourselves, you know, like when I was younger, my mother used to tell me the basics, you know, eat well, sleep, things like that. I also used to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, you know, and then I'd go to medical school and I think I knew all this stuff because I'm learning about diseases and all these things, you know, now that I'm a certain age and I think about my health in a way that I didn't think about when I was younger. I think, wow, you know, eat well, get some sleep in and do exercise. You know, exercise is like a magic thing.
- [29:38]
C
I told you.
- [29:39]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And so I go to the gym now, not to play sports better than somebody else, but I go there because I want to stay active and, you know, have a good life. And I think the other thing is, you know, relationships are so important. If you get isolated, you begin to feel bad and, you know, and I think those things really set us up for a lot of the mental health problems that we see and so on. And just being around friends, people who care about you, it does something magical.
- [30:13]
C
No, it does.
- [30:14]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And you know, all those things are not so hard. Sleep, eat well, exercise, keep up your relationships. Don't get isolated, you know, and that takes care of a lot of it.
- [30:24]
C
It does. You mentioned isolation. I mean, Covid was a time that we were isolated, but it also feels like Covid was also a time that. Looking, granted, we were talking about this earlier. It's like being in it. We didn't know we hadn't been there before, not on such a large scale. But there's also conversation about. But didn't we see it at some point? Again, not at large scale, but just in terms of viruses. And could it have been handled better? And I know that that's a very large word, better. But just in general, what do we get for that? That might set us up for maybe the measles now in Texas, and that's going to New Mexico, and now it's in Oregon. So how do we get from where we were with COVID to saying, okay, this doesn't happen. Has to hap. Have to happen again?
- [31:16]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah. You know, I've been working on outbreaks of diseases like Covid for much of my life. You know, that was much of my business. And one of the things that people working in the field are always talking about to others is we can do better. We know more events are going to come. Covid is not an isolated event. There are centuries of events like that which have happened to us, and we know the conditions for another pandemic are out there. It's really just a matter of when. And so I don't think pandemics and outbreaks can ever be easy. They're always going to cause a lot of trouble, and they're always going to be difficult to get through. But there are things that we can do to get ready for them better. One of the things that I think about is that I think public health is like this large team effort. It's really like a network of people and organizations out there that work on things like pandemics and so on and how to prepare for them. So being part of that system is a really important part of being prepared. And it's why I'm really concerned about the US Pulling out of who. Why I'm really concerned about the kind of crippling of a lot of the health agencies we have going on in the country. But we also know when a pandemic happens, we're going to have to rely upon experts. We know we're going to face certain decisions. What do we do about travel? What do we do about airplanes and so on. What do we do about schools? We know we're going to face all those issues. We can begin talking about them. What's a reasonable way for the United States to handle school closures? If we recognize that it's different in Texas than it is in Alabama, than it is in Vermont, we can talk about those things and say, okay, do we have a uniform policy? Are we going to go with area by area? And we're not talking about those things now. And after every big outbreak and pandemic I've gone through, we haven't talked about it afterwards, basically people want to kind of forget about it. You know, Covid was really bad. Let's get back to real life. Let's get back on to business as usual.
- [33:50]
C
Right?
- [33:50]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Those discussions don't take place, but there are so many things we could identify as we're going to face it again. Let's get our act a little bit better together now and, you know, make sure that we have less division, less fighting going on and we can just get on with the business of, of getting through the pandemic is as good as possible.
- [34:14]
Malcolm
Hey, comrades, if you are enjoying the episode, join the conversation. Like, subscribe, leave a comment below. Don't get yourself blocked. Keep it clean.
- [34:24]
C
But with the World Health Organization, we also have the cdc. Like you watch Walking Dead. Any of you.
- [34:30]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
No.
- [34:31]
C
No. Okay, that's all right. I will catch you up. But so the Walking Dead, right? So there's a virus that causing all this and they're, they're on their way to Atlanta to the CDC to get the answers for this virus that is causing everybody to be in a zombie state that, you know, they weren't trying to find the members of who. So I'm trying to figure out cdc, World Health Organization, I mean, Health and Human Services, you have so many of these entities, government, non entities, where do they all even kind of fit in? And I think that that's a question that a lot of people would have because international versus, you know, in the United States of America.
- [35:07]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Sure, good. Good question. Because I think it's really confusing to almost everybody. Even if you work in the field, it can get confusing. But maybe a way to think about it is that in the US that group of organizations protecting people, you know, you have doctors, nurses, hospitals, they take care of people when they're sick. Then you have another group of organizations like local health departments, state health departments, and you have the federal agencies. And the challenge of keeping people healthy is so big that everyone's got to do their own set of roles and responsibilities. And so if you look at the federal level, the national level, you have an agency like the nih. You have an agency like fda. You know, NIH funds and conducts a lot of the research for how do we treat cancer or treat infectious diseases. FDA makes sure that the medicines and vaccines that we get both work and they're safe for people. CDC is the hub of the US Public Health Service and, you know, the public health system. And so it's really where the rubber meets the road. So what's going on in the country? If we identify something that's really difficult, what do we do about it? So the CDC works with health departments to monitor what's going on. If there's something really complicated, you'll send people out there to investigate and work with the health department, and then it'll make that information available to the public, to doctors and so on. And so that's the kind of work which CDC does, you know, really practical stuff. Then when you go to the global system, again, you have a lot of national agencies all over the world. But the WHO is kind of like global hub. It's where everybody comes together, all the countries come together. These agencies send in their information. If we have a pandemic going on, it's the organization that knows the most about what's going on in the world. Someone needs help. They're the ones that say, please send us your experts, because we have to get people to Africa or to Asia, the Middle East. And they are the ones who sort of coordinate all that stuff. And CDC works really closely with them. When I worked for cdc, I used to go on missions sometimes for cdc, sometimes who. And I'd go on missions for WHO because they'd ask, cdc, can you send us some help? And so, you know, it's kind of complicated and mixed that way, but it's really like a really big team. It's kind of a big network.
- [37:57]
C
Yeah. Yeah, very big.
- [37:59]
Malcolm
So when you say that, they're like, after every outbreak, you know, these conversations aren't happening in terms of preparing for the next outbreak, because it's like, you know, they happen. We want to forget about it, get back to business as usual, as you said. So what exactly do we lose out on if the US does indeed pull out of the World Health Organization?
- [38:22]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
If the US Pulls out, we lose a lot. You know, if we're. If we. Let's take a really concrete situation. We're worried about another pandemic coming. We've seen how bad Covid could be. So right now, there's a lot of monitoring going on in the world. And in the US Right now we have one of those pandemic threats going on here. You've read about bird flu, probably bird flus in several states. A lot of cows, a lot of chickens have gotten infected, people have gotten infected, someone's died. And so there's a lot of concern about that particular virus. But there's a lot of other viruses out there that we're worried about. And then we know there's a huge number of viruses. We don't even know what they are, but they're capable of emerging and causing something. So if something happens, let's say in another country, it's WHO that's likely going to find out first. So if the US Is not part of who, we'll eventually hear about the information, but we're not going to hear about it right away because they're not. You know, that country is not going to call up the US and say, we've got something going on. They are going to call up who and say, we've got something going on. And you need that early information to get a really quick sense is this really serious, and if it is, how do we make tests for it? What do we know about the disease it's causing, how's it being transmitted, what kind of defense do we have to put up? It's different if it's in water, it's different if it's in body fluids, it's different if it's going through the air. You need all of that information, and then you immediately begin thinking, do we have vaccines for it? Do we have medicines for it? In the beginning, it's always really confusing little bits of information, but no one's got the big picture. So the WHO comes closest to pulling in the big picture because it's getting information from all these different countries. So when you lose out from the early warning, you may end up finding out, oh, we've got the infection in our country, we didn't even know about it. And so the US has really strong technical capacities and so on. But the beginning part of it is that a lot of people and a lot of organizations have to pool together the information and the resources and so on. And so without that information, doesn't matter what your capacities are, and you lose time. And if you lose time in an outbreak, it guarantees you that you're going to lose more people.
- [41:02]
C
So, okay, then that really begs the question, if we were part of who, and right now, at the time of this taping, we don't know the exact status. Like, want to pull out. I'm not sure if everything is happening, everything is signed. But if we were part of WHO during the pandemic and before then, what were the early warning signs that helped us at all? Because, I mean, government lockdown in a police state, basically, it seems like, could there have been a lot of early warning signs that would have helped us? And if so, what were they? Because it didn't feel like we kind of made good on those signs.
- [41:39]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, that's a really good point because. And it points out one thing which is really important. You can have the early signs, but you have to act upon it. You know, I was in. I had retired from who, and I was working in Hong Kong at the School of Public Health at the University of Hong Kong when Covid happened. Okay, so in Hong Kong, within a day or two after learning that there was disease cases going on in China, in Wuhan, the government began reacting and the population began reacting about, you know, masks started coming out. There's guidance that started coming out about what are we going to do about this outbreak? Because Hong Kong had been burned before a couple of times, you know, with sars, and a lot of people died and so on. So that really imprinted. By contrast, in the United States, you know, all countries knew about these infections by the early part of January of 2020 and so on. In the US I don't think an emergency was declared until sometime in late February. And so the person who first really broke the news at CDC saying, we have to really get serious because something bad is coming our way, in fact, got targeted and said, you know, you're just raising a lot of trouble for no reason at all and so on. And so it just points out that you can have the information, but you have to have a government and people that are willing to act on it. So being in Hong Kong, I saw how quickly things could move. But, you know, of course, I'm watching television and I'm seeing how slowly things are moving in the US at the time. So, you know, it takes two to dance.
- [43:30]
C
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting is that you were there. I can imagine that the sense of urgency with which you've got the information was way different than what we got. It was a slow burn. But what was that like? I mean, when you first heard of it, was it, you know, the red light warning or how did it come to you where you knew, okay, this is it?
- [43:50]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, you know, just from working on outbreaks in the past, when I hear about there are unexplained cases of illness anywhere. You know, recently there were unexplained cases of illness in drc in, you know, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in Africa. And I was immediately thinking, okay, is this the. An outbreak of something that we don't know, we don't know about? You know, is this Ebola? Is this something else going on? So being in Hong Kong, the government, scientists, people there already knew something is going on in terms of these unknown disease cases. It may blow over, it may get stopped, but it may just grow. And so we better act upon it, because if it grows, we don't want to fall behind. And so that willingness to act on the information, the furious. Taking it really serious, was just really obvious.
- [44:50]
C
Yeah. I mean, were you calling people back home, like, look, I know this information because really, you were ahead of. You were ahead of me for sure. Right. Because I was around March, you know, around March is my birthday. And so around 17th or 18th is when they said, look, everybody. And I was like, no, that can't be, because I had plans for my birthday. I mean, I know it's very simple, but, you know, it was like a different feeling. So I'm wondering, did you call people back in America and say, look, I know some information, and you should know this, it's coming, but because I love you and know you, I'm getting you ahead of it?
- [45:23]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, I think the health professionals I know here, you know, a lot of my friends still were working at CDC at the time. You know, they knew something bad was coming. But, you know, they're really mindful of what can we say about, you know, what's the administration going to look, let us talk about, and those things like that. And so, you know, it's a. It's a full team sport.
- [45:49]
C
Okay?
- [45:49]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
The whole team's got to be saying, this is serious. We're in the game, we're going to do it. And I think that, you know, that's part of, you know, you're asking about how do we get ready for the next thing. You know, part of the next thing is, are we a full team and are we going to act upon it? And, you know, how are we going to handle the situation early? Because it's early where you can tell people, get ready. You know, we're not sure what's going to happen, but it may be that schools will get affected, it may be that your lives will be affected. We want to give you as much time to think about it, prepare for it, and listen to this space for guidance. You know what to do about it.
- [46:32]
Malcolm
So for those who, you know, what I'm aware of is the reason for pulling out of the WHO is, or the reason given is because of the way they mishandled Covid and given the information of COVID How true is, from your perspective, did the World Health Organization mishandle delivering the information of COVID and if so, how?
- [47:09]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, I guess I would answer it this way, Malcolm. I think that could WHO have done better? And the answer, of course, is yes. You know, what organization does everything perfectly well and so on, but does that justify pulling out? I mean, it makes no sense at all. It's sort of like, again, being on a football team and, you know, the kicker screws up or the quarterback missed calls, something, and you don't handle it quite perfectly. The response is, okay, we're moving to a different league or we're pulling out of the league. You know, the, the, the response, if you really want it to work, is we need the organization to work better. We're going to work with you to bring our criticisms there. We want you to help address them. Let's get this right so we do things better the next time. You know, I wasn't part of WHO at the time the outbreak started, and, you know, I wasn't part of any of the things that they did. But, you know, the people there, I know a lot of them, they're really competent people. You know, they're not. They, they definitely want things to go as well as possible. I think that I've thought a lot about why would the US pull out of who? I can't think of a single reason, literally.
- [48:38]
C
You know, I think one of the things, though, is just this fear of distrust of the government, Period. Period. And just anything that has to do with the government working with the cdc, working with Health and Human Services, you know, everybody's ideas about should there be vaccinations or not, or the possibilities of enforced vaccinations. Or the possibilities of enforced vaccinations. Exactly. Misinformation, distrust. Just the government. Anything that smells government or government, like people are. Many people are just working against. And I think part of the reason is that there's so much information out there. There's. It's. It's hard to kind of be on the ground as to what's going on in so many sectors of society because we are being bombarded with news, news, news, news, news. I'm just trying to worry about this one laying over Here I'm trying to worry about these student loans, or I'm trying to worry about, you know, prices of houses, because I need to do that. And now, okay, I'm worrying about this. But everything is just so. It's so much information. You just easy to get lost in all of it.
- [49:42]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [49:44]
Malcolm
Flooding the zone.
- [49:44]
C
Yeah, Just flooding the zone. No, which might be done purposefully or not, but the problem is that then it just all gets lost in the flood. The flood zone. Right.
- [49:55]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I think it's super confusing now. You know, if you're. If you're someone who doesn't follow this stuff professionally, you know, what's believable, what's right Information, what's good information is really hard to get through. Through. But I think, you know, I was just recently overseas. I was in Japan recently, and then I was in some other countries before that. And how the Asian countries handled it was different than in the United States, you know, and a lot of the Asian countries I know are pretty unhappy with their governments. You know, people are. But they also listened when Covid occurred, you know, when they heard that wear masks, don't get too close to other people, things like that. They took it a lot more seriously in the United States. I think that the divisions between groups of people are particularly bad right now. You know, I was really. I've really been struck by that. And Covid made it worse. You know, wearing masks became, you know, like a red flag and stuff, and it led to, you know, a lot of fighting and so on.
- [51:07]
C
Even now, when I see someone with the mask, I'm like, do they have it. Like, it means so many different things at different parts of, you know, different times.
- [51:15]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
But I think it's like one of the things and we ought to grapple with. Now we don't have a pandemic right now. We know we have divisions in the country, and we have a lot of different cultures in the country, and people feel about these things differently. If that's the reality of the country, then how are we going to handle it? And so on. You know, I think that in the past, public health people would have just said, we've got to wear masks. We've got to do everything we can to keep infection going from one person to another. Otherwise we're not going to be able to slow down the pandemic. But if the other part of the reality is, well, you can maybe force people to wear a mask, but you're going to have an awful lot of angry people, and there's going to be a lot of backlash to that. It's something that you have to sit down and consider. And so that's the kind of stuff we can talk about now. And it's the kind, you know, because it's not just mass, it's schools. You know, schools were in a terrific mess. On the one hand, people were really worried that schools would transmit a lot of infections, have a lot of sick kids, they go home, they infect grandparents, parents, and all of this. So you can understand where that fear comes from. But now we also see that we have a generation of kids that got set back educationally. Yes, a lot of them were in isolation and the downsides of it were also really clear. So what's the balance? How do we handle that? It's really complicated. But the way to handle some of those complications is to sit down now and say, you know, these are the different perspectives. We're going to have to reach some decisions when the next emergency occurs. And so what's the best way to reach those decisions? And it may be different in New York than it is in another place. You know, is that, is that what we're going to do if, you know, if we have a discussion where you say that's what we're going to do, you know, I can live with that.
- [53:07]
Malcolm
But we're not even having discussions, right? Not even having preliminary discussions.
- [53:10]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Not having the discussions right now.
- [53:12]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:14]
Malcolm
Hey, comrades, come join us on our Patreon page.
- [53:16]
C
Ah. Where you can get behind the scenes footage, discounts on merchandise and exclusive content.
- [53:22]
Malcolm
We'll see you there. I'm curious. I think you're probably one of the best people to talk to about this, the argument for and against masks. Right. Because there's a firm argument, and I wish I could speak intelligently enough, but there's a firm argument that masks don't work. Is it a particular kind of mask or what is the argument for why masks don't work, whether you agree with it or not?
- [53:54]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
So I think the argument against mass working is the fact that if you put on a mask, it's not going to stop anything 100%. It's not going to stop virus from coming into your body 100%. It's not going to stop virus going out of your body 100%. Unless you're wearing like a total, totally enclosed mask, you know, head, head mass system. So people will argue that if it's not 100%, then why are you demanding it of anybody? But when you look at other studies, if you have a lot of people wearing masks, then the number of percentages of people with infection goes down and so on. So there's also good evidence that masks worn by a lot of people can help protect other people from getting infected. So in the US it takes this kind of, well, I'm free not to wear a mask, and so on. And that's one perspective. But another perspective may be that, you know, we work to try to help other people. You know, we do that when times are tough. We come together, and even if we don't particularly like something, we try to help out our neighbors, we try to help out our community, and so on. So there's, you know, different values and different. Different perspectives. I think that in Asia is a different perspective. You know, people don't really question do masks work or not. They believe that math will help, and they're willing to do it, and so they don't. It's. For them, it's not an issue of, are you stepping on my rights? Are you kind of forcing me to do something which I don't want to do it? In the US It's a really different culture.
- [55:45]
C
Yeah.
- [55:45]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
It's become, you know, it's become kind of like a flashpoint.
- [55:48]
C
Yeah. Even over the years, at airports, when I would see people. I mean, in the 90s with masks, they were always Asians. They were always Asians.
- [55:57]
Malcolm
Look, I used to love, like. I always love the idea of walking through an airport with a mask on.
- [56:07]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Right, Right.
- [56:08]
Malcolm
But I just always. I always felt that I would just. I would just stand out and look like a freaking weirdo. So then when Covid happened and everybody had masks, I was like, oh, cool. This is great. And then I bet the funny story, I was flying, and this was after the mask mandate had been released, but I was still rocking my mask, and I got on the plane, and I sat next to a woman, and she saw my mask. So she put her mask on.
- [56:41]
C
Exactly. Because if you have a mask, then that means you might have something.
- [56:45]
Malcolm
I said, you don't have to wear your mask. Don't worry about me. I just like to pretend I'm famous. So the whole time before, she had no idea who I was, but it was. So now I feel like, because it's such commonplace to see people walk through airports with masks.
- [57:01]
C
Yeah.
- [57:01]
Malcolm
I don't. I don't look as. I wouldn't look as foolish. I don't do it now.
- [57:06]
C
Yeah.
- [57:07]
Malcolm
But the few times I did it, I was like, this is great. I should do this more often.
- [57:10]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That makes. Yeah. If I get on the plane tonight, if I. If I had a mask, it would be like you people would think I was sick. Yeah, that's just kind of the natural inclination. But again, March 2020, totally different story. It was, you know, part of, you know, what we were supposed to do.
- [57:29]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
But you know, to put one final point about masks out there, you know, like, if you're going to have surgery and you were in the. You were in that room watching yourself getting operated, and you were to see the surgeons not wearing a mask, nurses are not wearing. You would feel. This doesn't feel very good.
- [57:48]
C
Yeah.
- [57:48]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And they're not doing it for fun.
- [57:50]
C
Yeah.
- [57:50]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Who wants to wear a mask, you know, if you don't have to wear a mask and so on. So, you know, you can argue about our masks. Perfect or not. But for, for me, you know, if I'm going to have surgery, I definitely want the surgical team wearing masks.
- [58:06]
C
Right, right.
- [58:07]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Gloves, you know. Yeah, all that stuff.
- [58:09]
C
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
- [58:10]
Malcolm
So a big. So a big part of the mask discussion is really about the effectiveness being the number of people wearing masks in terms of, as a community thing, the more people who are wearing masks is what makes a difference as opposed to just an individual. Would that be fair?
- [58:35]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah, I think that's a fair way to think about it. I mean, you can wear masks that are so protective that for the individual you can really say, nothing's going to come in, nothing's going to go out. You know, you think about gas masks and so on and. And that. But, you know, you can't wear that kind of mask on an everyday basis for a year. So if we're talking about the regular sorts of surgical masks and so on, you know, for people who are sick, who are coughing, you know, you got stuff coming out. Masks can probably do a really good job of keeping a lot of that from not going out into the room. And simply by doing that, you're going to help a lot of people.
- [59:16]
Malcolm
But I remember when mask first came out, the whole thing was you're wearing the mask to protect other people from you. Like somewhere in the argument and the political foray of it, that part of it got. That part of the discussion just completely got lost. Like I remember the point was then it became you're wearing the mask so you don't get it from other people.
- [59:45]
C
But I specifically, there's a word for it where there's that collective mask wearing that creates a protection for. I can't remember the word, but I remember heard. Yes, the herd. Yeah, yeah, I do remember that a lot. That because of the. Everybody wearing a mask, then you really bring the likelihood down because everybody has the mask.
- [60:03]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah, A lot of it is just reducing likelihood.
- [60:07]
C
Okay.
- [60:07]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
If you're dealing with a lot of people, then if you reduce the likelihood some, you're going to help other people. You know, it comes down to that and. But I think again, it comes down to your perspective. How do you want to interpret it? This is an issue about my rights. Me.
- [60:24]
C
Right.
- [60:24]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Or this is an issue about protecting people. Different way to think about it. And what's clear in the US is that people think about it differently.
- [60:33]
Malcolm
And I think that to my point, when it first came out, there was more of a mindfulness when it was, when it was presented as the mask is protecting other people from you. Like that seemed like a more of a self accountability and I think people rocked with that more. But then it got turned into, you know, you're wearing the mask to protect yourself from other people. Then it became a, then it became a personal rights issue.
- [61:02]
C
Right. And political. Yeah, yeah, no, it did.
- [61:05]
Malcolm
But when you talk about reducing the effectiveness, like I think about, you know, of course, think about the COVID vaccine and you know, when I was working on the resident, all Disney employees had to get vaccinated. There was no question about it if you wanted to keep your job. And in fact, I know some people who actually got fired from work because they wouldn't take the vaccine. And there was this whole case of you have to be afraid of people who aren't vaccinated because they can easily.
- [61:38]
C
They can affect you. Right, right.
- [61:40]
Malcolm
I remember December 2021, I had gotten vaccinated and then I went to see my in laws. I ended up doing a gig, a band gig. And that was on a Sunday. Tuesday we went to Connecticut to go with my in laws and I started feeling a little sick. Wednesday we all drove, 13 of us drove out to the Poconos. And I was feeling so bad.
- [62:10]
C
See where this is going?
- [62:11]
Malcolm
Yeah, I was feeling so bad, like something just wasn't right. And we were like in the middle of nowhere. It was a 45 minute drive, one way to get to the nearest CVS for me to get a home Covid kit. I drove 45 minutes there, 45 minutes back, took the test and I had Covid. Over the course of the trip there, I gave 12 other. Wow, unvaccinated people Covid and I was the only vaccinated one. And I gave all of them Covid and I, you know, Then that put me on this thing of, well, if you're going to be. You should be just as afraid of vaccinated people as you are, as you've been conditioned to be afraid of unvaccinated people.
- [62:57]
C
Right. So then where does it all make sense in terms of evening out, like, whether you do it or not?
- [63:02]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah, yeah.
- [63:03]
C
Because for you, you were vaccinated and you just got in the car and.
- [63:06]
Malcolm
Affected all those other people, and they were not vaccinated. But the fear mongering is. Or the fear is if you're around unvaccinated people, you have a higher case of getting Covid.
- [63:20]
C
Well, those 12 unvaccinated people, how did they make out just in terms of their symptoms? Did it seem to be worse than people who were.
- [63:27]
Malcolm
They weren't worse than me. I had the worst of it.
- [63:29]
C
Okay.
- [63:30]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Really?
- [63:30]
Malcolm
Yeah. And unfortunately, it was the second version. I don't know if it was Omnicron. It was. Whatever it was. It wasn't like. Like, I had the worst symptoms, but I wasn't. I didn't feel like I was going to die.
- [63:41]
C
Okay.
- [63:42]
Malcolm
So it was, I think was the second wave that was less intense version.
- [63:47]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Of COVID Yeah, No, I think, you know, we get into a lot of trouble when we exaggerate things too much, you know, so you can make people afraid.
- [63:58]
Malcolm
Yeah.
- [63:59]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And then it comes back to bite you. But on the other hand, you know, vaccines, Covid vaccines are not perfect. You can get vaccinated, you can get infected like you were, and you can pass it on to others. But again, it's playing the numbers. You vaccinate a lot of people. It's really clear. You prevent a lot of people from dying, you prevent a lot of people from ending up in hospitals and so on. Can't say exactly what's going to happen to each single person. But again, and in public health, you end up thinking about big populations of people, you know, and, you know, doctors taking care of patients. Think about, I got a patient. This is what I have to do for that one person. But in public health, you're thinking, we got, you know, a country of 350 million people. What. What do you do to sort of try to reduce as many infections and people dying as possible? And so you do end up thinking about things a little bit differently. And I think the difficulty is that when we get around or get away from thinking about, is this going to actually help or not, and turn it more into, are my rights being trampled on or not, then we get into a really complicated Discussion about this is how I feel about rights. You feel about rights differently, and then it's a completely different discussion. And, and I think that's what happened with COVID You know, we ended up getting into really bad situations because we're. We stopped talking about health and we started talking about other things, and it got very complicated and mixed together. Sure. But I think that's the reality of how the world is, you know, it's the reality of how the country is. And so that's why I really, I'd love for us to get into some very serious discussions, you know, on a larger scale about how do we want to handle these things, and then that can be used to help prepare for what do we do with the next crisis when it comes up.
- [66:01]
C
Yeah, you know, I think it's going to be really different because now you have lawsuits, speaking of personal rights, where people have been winning because they were fired for having, for not taking the vaccine. I know in situations with you mentioning one of the actors earlier, some of them are still in the middle of lawsuits. But I know with the MTA up in New York City, there are several people who were fired and won several million dollar lawsuits because they were fired. They didn't do the vaccine. And I think that's a terrible precedent for us to think that we are going to get into another situation where everybody is going to be required to wear a mask. I really think those days are over.
- [66:42]
Malcolm
Well, I think that's one of the fears of the World Health Organization is, you know, the next pandemic that they're going to enforce.
- [66:53]
C
Yeah.
- [66:54]
Malcolm
Like, what are you, what, what are your thoughts on enforced vaccines?
- [66:59]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Well, you know, I think an organization first, like, WHO can't force anybody to do anything, literally, you know, WHO is not like a super agency that tells countries what to do. It's more like a place where all countries come together and they reach decisions by consensus. We don't, you know, in who, we don't even. We try to avoid voting on it. We try to say, do we all agree? And that's how it sort of comes to decisions. But those decisions then get implemented by countries or they don't. And there's no army, there's no sanctions, there's nothing. And so enforcement really is like a national issue. So that's one thing. And it's good for people to understand that WHO really is no superpowers to tell anybody what to do. It does try to recommend, you know, based on best information that we have, we think this is what you ought to do, we strongly recommend, but it can't force. So I think that. In the US Would vaccinations be mandatory? And I think the answer is I'm not sure. And I'll tell you why I'm not sure. If we have something like polio come roaring back, you know, if the U. S. Pulls out a WHO and makes good on it, it's already pulled back a lot of funding. There's a pretty good chance that polio is going to reappear in a lot of places. And polio is one of those things which scares everybody. You know, the idea of having a lot of paralyzed children, this is something which will genuinely give everybody the creeps. And so if you're in that kind of situation, will people think about it differently? Give you another example. You know, we're worried about bird flu right now. We talked about that. You know, the first time that virus appeared and got people sick was in Hong Kong in 1997. And I was part of the investigation that went there. The team that went there to work with the health department. There were 18 people that got infected. One third of them died. 33% of them died. And the people that died are not like, old and debilitated people. A lot of them are young and healthy people. So you can imagine, like, what do you do if you're facing something with that many people dying? Yeah, that would be really scary. So then again, I think it would change how we think about things if we had smallpox come back. You know, Smallpox killed, like, 300 million people in the 20th century. Again, something which is unbelievable. But if you had something like that appear again, would you want to have mandatory vaccinations? Or would you just say no? You know, if you want to get it right.
- [69:51]
C
Right. That. That opens up a lot of eyes, those numbers.
- [69:54]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah. So I think that, you know, one of our difficulties is we just went through Covid. We kind of think everything's going to be like Covid, but the future is almost never exactly like what we saw in the past. And so that's why when you say, is it going to be mandatory or not? I don't think so, but I don't know because I don't know what the next situation is going to be.
- [70:14]
C
Are we still in Covid? I mean, yes, in terms of what we knew it as, but in terms of the headlines, it's not in there the way that it was. But in terms of people dying, those numbers, I've known people recently who have gotten two people who did go to the hospital For Covid. And it was bad.
- [70:30]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Oh, yeah, no, no, we're definitely still in Cove.
- [70:32]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [70:33]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know, Covid is now a little bit like influenza. You know, influenza has caused more pandemics than probably any other virus in history. But we got seasonal influenza every year. You hear about, you know, flu's coming, get your vaccination, and so on. And these are different than the big pandemics of influenza, when a really new virus appears and a lot of people get sick in an unusual way. Covid is a little bit like that. We didn't have a COVID virus before it. Then came. It caused this global outbreak, a pandemic, and then we're out of the emergency period. No government is handling it like an emergency anymore. But the virus is still there, and it's likely that that virus is going to be there for a long time. You know, it's not going to go away.
- [71:27]
Malcolm
I hear that, you know, the term is, you know, Covid, I guess. What's the difference between the flu and influenza? Because I hear that the COVID now, when you get Covid now, it's really just like the flu, and the flu isn't something to be as worried about. So. But when I hear influenza, that feels like that's something that's more concerning than.
- [71:48]
C
Yeah, it feels a little heavier. Yeah, it does.
- [71:50]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
So influenza and the flu are exactly the same.
- [71:53]
Malcolm
Okay.
- [71:53]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Flu is just kind of like a more informal way. Okay, gotcha about it. But, you know, influenza and Covid have a lot of similarities and differences. You know, the similarities are important because one of them is that both of these viruses keep changing. You know, some viruses are pretty stable.
- [72:17]
Malcolm
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:18]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
But these viruses change a lot. And depending on how they change, the last vaccine you got may not be helpful for the next version, which is coming. And so it's sort of like, you know, always becoming something new. And so that's why influenza has been around for ages. And no matter how much we make in terms of vaccines, we're not going to be able to get rid of it because it keeps changing itself. And I think Covid sort of acts in the same way.
- [72:48]
C
I do want to talk about black people specifically. Right. When we talk about diseases, let's look at COVID 19.
- [72:55]
Malcolm
We don't talk about black people specifically.
- [72:57]
C
On this podcast, just in terms of. All right, the frontline workers, the distrust in the government. Remember, there was this whole thing online, and especially black folks. So this isn't real. Covid isn't real. This isn't doing. These are all Lies. Granted, it was everywhere, but.
- [73:16]
Malcolm
And then we point back to the Tuskegee experiment.
- [73:18]
C
We don't trust these vaccines, distrust all of it. Even now, dealing with kind of the post Covid effects, access to healthcare. In order to deal with any of that, we get affected disproportionately. And it seems to me like we need to be more on the ground and understanding what is coming next. What would you say to the black community specifically to say, you know, what you need to keep your eyes open on what. Like, what should we be looking at to really kind of be in the know and prepared? Because it's going to hit us harder.
- [73:53]
Malcolm
And especially given there's a. There's a saying when. When America gets a cold, black people get pneumonia.
- [74:00]
C
Yeah, Yeah.
- [74:06]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I think with every major health problem that I can think of, ranging from cancer, chronic diseases to infectious diseases, to the kinds of things which I spend my time working on, certain populations get hit harder than other populations, you know, and this is a form of inequity. And a lot of that inequity is socially based. It's there because can't get access to good health care. The kind of health care you get may not be as good, or you live in places where you don't get as much information or support. You know, there's a whole lot of different reasons like that. And if I was in the black community, I would pay a lot of attention to what is going on with the federal agencies, because in a lot of ways, the information put out by agencies like CDC and who is going to be the best information that you're going to have access to. You know, there are a lot of sources out there, and a lot of the stuff that I read, I. I can't believe. I think, you know, this is crazy stuff. This is just somebody sitting around and giving their opinion on something, and it's not based in science or based in experience at all. So if I was in the community, I would first want to know where am I going to go for. For good information? Because without that, you don't even know where to start. And so I think the specific health threats and so on, it's really difficult to tease through. I mean, there's so many things, potential viruses out there. You know, you have measles going on, you have monkeypox going on, you have influenza going on, you have Covid going on. You have all these different viruses, all these different diseases. I think it's really hard for a normal person to follow all of that and sort of know, you Know, should I be worried about this one in particular or what should I do? But that's why you have agencies like CDC there to sort of digest, digest that stuff. And personally, when I want to know what's going on in the world in terms of health, those are the two websites I go to. I go to CDC and I go to who, and then I might look up other more specialized places, but they're the ones that I know are going to give me pretty straight information, and it's stuff that I'm going to be able to believe and that maybe I need to do more investigation, but that's what I do personally. And so I would pay attention and I would fight hard to make sure that we don't pull out of the WHO and that we don't destroy those federal agencies, you know, local health departments. Your doctor, you may love them, may trust them, but they can't. They can only do so much. They can't really do the kinds of things those federal agencies can do and WHO can do. And they rely upon them to do their work and so on. And so if I was in any population, it doesn't matter whether I'm in a black population, a white population, an Asian population, I would just say the same thing. Don't let these agencies get destroyed.
- [77:40]
C
Yeah, because that's what we're in the process of. Even they're either being moved under different umbrellas or money's been taking away or, you know, just getting out of WHO altogether. So all of that is happening, which is why, first of all, people, we have this conversation. Often people aren't watching the news. It's just too much. So it's like what you're saying is really important. Don't completely cut yourself off because you do need information to order, even function, because literally these decisions that are being made will affect, between a Monday and Tuesday, what your life could potentially look like.
- [78:16]
Malcolm
But with this new administration, is the integrity of the CDC in danger?
- [78:22]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yes. You know, let me, I. I'm not part of CDC again, but I again, know some about what's going on in the agency and so on. And as you know from reading and media, listening to things, people are being fired. Some are being brought back again, some are being told, you're on the chopping block. You know, the mood inside the agency is anxiety, tenseness, fear. People inside are also being told, you can't go to this meeting. You can go to this meeting. Maybe you can't do that. You can do that. You know, it's not work as Normal. These are highly professional, competent people. So, you know, it is being crippled. It is definitely being crippled. And then, you know, there's rumors, for example, that HIV is going to be taken out of cdc.
- [79:22]
Malcolm
Yeah, yeah.
- [79:23]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
We're just talking about, you know, this is an enormous health issue and stuff. And so, you know, it's. All of these things are being done and it's. I know CDC the best and what they do. And I can tell you that if CDC is crippled and it's being crippled as we speak, I know that when we are in another bad pandemic situation, something I worked on, that we are going to be much worse off. I can just flatly tell you that.
- [79:56]
C
Yeah.
- [79:56]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
And it doesn't matter what color you are, it doesn't matter what community you live in. Rural, urban, we're going to be doing less well. And if we pull out of who, we're going to be doing less well, too. We need who. And to be frank, who really needs the US too? I mean, so much science, so many good people have gone to WHO to help out, provide expertise, and that sort of back and forth discussion is what you really need when you're facing complicated threats. You know, you need to talk it through because you never have perfect information. So, you know, this is going on right now. It's not something to be worried about in the future. It's happening literally right now.
- [80:47]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [80:49]
Malcolm
We usually start the show because we get into, like, heavy topics and what have you. So we usually start the show with what's good in the world. So I'd like to end this episode with the question for all of us.
- [81:07]
C
Yeah.
- [81:07]
Malcolm
But I'll start with you.
- [81:10]
C
You will? I was thinking that's a good way to end it. You know why? Because so far, what we talked about and. And kind of ended on it wasn't that good.
- [81:18]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
You know what I mean?
- [81:20]
C
That is not good news. CDC's going away, potentially. Who will go away?
- [81:26]
Malcolm
We're fucked.
- [81:27]
C
Right?
- [81:27]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Where do we got information?
- [81:28]
C
Everybody just for their own. You know what's interesting? Interesting enough, but. And I'm sniffing because all of a sudden I have allergies. I've never had allergies before, but I do love the change of seasons. So it's funny because we're talking about viruses and we're talking about things that might make you sick. All of a sudden I have allergies. But I love the fact. What's good. I love the fact that, you know, we're going into another season. It might seem small, but I like coming out of the kind of, you know, I love winter, too. I love all the seasons. I'm a Jersey girl by heart. Where we specifically, we have the fall and the summer and the spring and the winter. So I like the change of seasons. Even with the allergies, even with being sick. This is. This is all new for me. I've never been sniffing before, but we've just turned into spring, and here I am. But I'm still glad to see another season.
- [82:19]
Malcolm
Yeah, small is good.
- [82:20]
C
Yes, small is good. Smell is good.
- [82:22]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Brother kg well, you know, we started talking off, you know, a little bit about what, you know, moms tell us when we're younger, about how to stay healthy and, you know, sleep, eat right, do all these things, exercise. But Covid really, really taught me, you know, your friends, your family, those relationships, they're like, better than anything. They're the most important things. And so that has really lingered. And so we have good friends in Atlanta. We Skype or talk with our daughters a lot. You know, they're in different parts of the world. And I have just so much love and appreciation about the people that I care about and so on. And it's, you know, maybe age has a little bit to do with that wisdom.
- [83:25]
C
Your retirement. Now you have a lot more time to think about it, too.
- [83:29]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Right. Right. You know, so I enjoy. I just enjoy being with my friends and family so much and so on. And, you know, that's the. For me, that's the real upside in the world.
- [83:40]
C
Does the medical community see that type of interaction as, like, a medicine? I would imagine that social interaction that, you know, interacting with people who you.
- [83:49]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Love, I think it's now becoming really recognized that, you know, isolation, not being with people is bad. It just is not good for us as human beings. And I think that the whole idea of interacting more and not being lonely, but really feeling like I have other people who are with me, I think this is really now really becoming greatly appreciated that we need this.
- [84:21]
C
Yeah.
- [84:22]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
All right.
- [84:23]
C
What's good, sir?
- [84:24]
Malcolm
What's good? What's good? Balance. I find myself constantly battling overwhelm. Right. And some days it's a losing battle. And I find myself constantly stressed by, you know, trying to keep everything balanced. And oftentimes I feel like, you know, it's not balanced. But, you know, I'm having a moment of gratitude and appreciation for. For having such a full life.
- [85:05]
C
Yeah.
- [85:06]
Malcolm
You know, so, you know, I'm headed to Canada to work for a little bit. My music.
- [85:13]
C
Yeah.
- [85:14]
Malcolm
You know, like I did in February. I Had four sold out band shows here in Atlanta.
- [85:20]
C
That's a good balance.
- [85:21]
Malcolm
Two sold out shows in West Columbia. I've got such a beautiful home life. It's like I can't go through an episode of this podcast without bragging on.
- [85:33]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
My wife and daughter.
- [85:34]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [85:35]
Malcolm
So I'm just in a really, really good place of gratitude. And what's good for me is that I realize that I have more balance than I give my life credit for.
- [85:50]
C
Will you find yourself a little off? Is there something that you do to say, ah, I'm gonna get back on balance by doing. Or you say something to yourself.
- [85:58]
Malcolm
I have to be still.
- [86:00]
C
Be still.
- [86:01]
Malcolm
Yeah. And even sometimes when I get into. And I haven't had time to meditate, sometimes just like, just in my office, I have a recliner. Sometimes I'll sit in my recliner, put the timer on for five minutes because that's probably as long as I can go still without falling asleep. But I put the time on for five minutes, just still. And just remember, all really is good, as corny as it may sound. But no, all really is good.
- [86:29]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Do you meditate or you have some form of it?
- [86:35]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I ruminate.
- [86:36]
C
Yeah. You know, I like that. Like, it's so old. I like that.
- [86:41]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
I'm thinking, actually, Malcolm is Asian here, you know, talking about balance. This is like the center of being Asian is balance and so on.
- [86:50]
C
Yeah.
- [86:50]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
But, yeah, no, it really, you know, I was born in Japan and, you know, was just there and balance is really, you know, so central.
- [87:02]
C
Yeah. Is that something that you mean like on an educational level you've been taught or just through family or just kind of in the culture itself? There's this idea that balance is something you should achieve in life.
- [87:15]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Yeah. It's deeper than education. It's sort of in the culture. It was in my parents and it somehow percolated into me and, you know, that, that appreciation for balance and not being lopsided and, you know, I think that's just in the culture.
- [87:35]
C
Yeah.
- [87:41]
Malcolm
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D
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C
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D
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- [87:58]
C
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- [88:01]
Malcolm
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- [88:05]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
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- [88:08]
Malcolm
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D
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- [88:44]
Malcolm
M oh.
- [88:46]
C
What you eating?
- [88:46]
Malcolm
The new banana split cookie from AM pm All freshly baked with real butter with banana, chocolate and strawberry flavors.
- [88:53]
C
Wow, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite?
- [88:54]
Malcolm
I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana split.
- [88:58]
C
Not even a little.
- [88:59]
Dr. Keiji Fukuda
Not even a crumb.
- [89:00]
C
What if.
- [89:01]
Malcolm
No, please. Mine when it's too legit to split. That's cravinience. Get a 3 pack for 99 cents with our app ampm. Too much good stuff. Plus tax where applicable. Prices and participation may vary. Terms and conditions apply.