Gentrification Is Changing Atlanta Forever

Summary

Not All Hood (NAH) Podcast

Episode: Gentrification Is Changing Atlanta Forever

Date: September 25, 2025
Hosts: Malcolm-Jamal Warner, Candace Kelley
Guests: Dr. Black, Kim (Author & Producer)

Episode Overview

This powerful episode of NAH explores the impact of gentrification on Atlanta’s Black identity, culture, and status as a "Black Mecca." Through deeply personal stories and sharp sociopolitical analysis, guests—anchored by Dr. Black’s long institutional memory and Kim’s creative activism—unpack how historical legacies, class, homeownership, and changing demographics shape Black communities in Atlanta and across the South. The latter part of the episode takes a heartfelt turn, honoring Malcolm-Jamal Warner’s contributions and spirit in the wake of his unexpected passing, culminating in a moving libation ritual.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Atlanta as the Black Mecca: Past, Present, and Complications

• Why Atlanta?

  • HBCU Ecosystem: Dr. Black highlights Atlanta’s dense network of HBCUs (Clark Atlanta, Spelman, Morehouse, etc.) as an engine for recurring waves of Black excellence and middle-class growth.
    • Quote: “Literally thousands of middle class, educated black kids all graduate every year and many of who stay.” (05:00, Dr. Black)
  • Deep Roots: Atlanta’s significance is linked to its place in the heart of the Black South, forged by centuries of migration and community building.

• Does Atlanta Still Deserve the “Black Mecca” Title?

  • Kim and Dr. Black reflect on shifting demographics, revealing tension between symbolic identity and lived reality.

2. Gentrification & The Changing Face of Atlanta

• Displacement of Black Culture-Makers:

  • Kim describes how rising home prices, Wall Street buyouts, and tax pressures have changed homeownership patterns, pushing long-established Black families to the suburbs or into rentals.
    • Quote: “We sold Atlanta to Wall Street. ... For the first time in decades...we may start being a transition from predominantly black leadership...to a more diverse mix.” (08:41, Kim)
    • Quote referenced by Kim’s brother: “Atlanta influences everything. That culture...the creators are leaving the city.” (11:37, Kim)
  • Rapid influx of newcomers (especially with the film/TV boom) brought diversity but also new pressures as those industries changed.

• Contrasting Views on Migration:

  • Dr. Black believes Black people continue to move to Atlanta, attracted by lower cost of living (relative to NYC/LA), land, and “urban options.”
    • Quote: “Though housing prices have risen…the irony is that it’s still not as high as New York…or San Francisco.” (11:57, Dr. Black)

3. Black Spaces, White Spaces, and Self-Awareness

• Living and Working in Black Environments:

  • Kim and Dr. Black dissect the nuances of belonging and adaptation in predominantly Black and White environments.
    • Kim: Her upbringing in segregated Chicago neighborhoods gave her a sense of Black belonging. Even when living in LA, she gravitated toward Black communities like Compton.
    • Dr. Black: “I don’t ever find myself in all white spaces...I teach at a black school, go to a black church...I’m always talking to black people.” (16:41, Dr. Black)
  • Respectability & Survival: Kim theorizes that certain forms of Black etiquette (“Don’t touch anything in the store”) stem from survival mechanisms rooted in historical racial violence, not simple manners.
    • Quote: “I call it the swinging tree theory…It’s rooted in survival. ... What has been passed down to them generationally is that (whites) are entitled to the policing of us in their space.” (23:13, Kim)

• White Ubiquity vs. Black Justification:

  • Dr. Black: “White people get the privilege of ubiquity...never have to explain it, never have to justify. Black people always have to answer the question of why are you over here?” (20:04, Dr. Black)

4. Documenting Change: 'Bye Bye Black' Documentary

• Project Goals:
  • Kim discusses producing a documentary initially focused on Atlanta but evolving to explore the broader South as a wellspring for Black wealth and excellence.
  • Highlights intentional leadership during the Maynard Jackson era: city contracts for Black businesses, trade schools, construction of the airport as economic empowerment.
    • Quote (re: Mayor Maynard Jackson): “Maynard was like, I’m black people’s mayor. Love it, hate it. I’m black people’s mayor. And I’m intentional about that.” (28:31, Kim)

5. Class, Colorism, and Respectability Politics

• Atlanta’s Black Elite:

  • Dr. Black highlights long-standing class and color hierarchies—several mayors and Black college student bodies were predominantly light-skinned, raising questions about internal Black politics and representation. (30:02, Dr. Black)
  • Kim points out her viral speech critiqued the Black bourgeoisie for prioritizing white opinions after civil unrest, emphasizing the harmful effects of “centering the white gaze.” (31:57, Kim)

• Respectability & Assimilation:

  • Dr. Black laments that many Black people are still “ensconced in respectability politics,” often desiring the trappings of whiteness (material wealth, big houses) instead of redefining value on their own terms.
    • Quote: “We cannot yet decide just how much white supremacy we want…we want pieces of it.” (35:13, Dr. Black)

• Land, Home, & Community:

  • The aspiration for large homes is critiqued as a relic of “slave mentality”—wanting the “big house” because of historic deprivation, not because it serves community needs. (40:09, Dr. Black)
  • Kim elevates communal living and family-based homeownership (like her sister Gigi’s multifamily home) as more consistent with Black values and sustainable wealth. (45:12, Kim)

6. Communal Responses to Systemic Change

• New Black Enclaves & Land Activism:
  • Kim and Dr. Black note a trend toward “returning to the land,” with Black families buying land together to build intentional communities—seeking safety, culture, and autonomy outside the old “system.” (47:51, Kim)

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7. Tribute to Malcolm-Jamal Warner (49:00–end)

• Personal Memories:

  • Hosts and guests share their raw grief and stories of Malcolm, describing lingering disbelief at his passing and the depth of his love and mentorship.
    • Quote (Kim): “Why would you leave me? ... I just have conversations with him, outward conversations with him, all the time.” (49:20, Kim)
  • Powerful acknowledgment of the unique way Malcolm loved people “out loud”—publicly, unashamedly, radically.
    • Quote (Kim): “There are people who love you out loud when it’s convenient and when it’s inconvenient, that love is fleeting. [Malcolm’s] wasn’t.” (54:34, Kim)
    • Quote (Dr. Black): “If there’s an angel we needed, he was the one.” (56:25, Dr. Black)

• His Influence:

  • Remembered as a creative force who reshaped perceptions about Black men, and as someone who maintained humility and accessibility despite fame.
    • “He never ever, ever outgrew his calling.” (56:07, Dr. Black)
    • “He was always learning and wanting to be...that sponge. And that was incredible.” (55:40, Interviewer)

• Spiritual Closure: Libation Ritual (61:01–62:17)

  • Dr. Black leads a traditional African libation, calling forth ancestors and culminating in the addition of Malcolm’s name to this lineage.
    • Quote: “We now add the name Malcolm Jamal Warner...a man just as great as all the other names we just called. A man who, in half the time, lived a life where he prepared the way and cleared the path...” (63:19, Dr. Black)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Atlanta’s Black Identity:
  • “Any place you bind people for 400 years, at some point the descendants of those folks are going to gather...it would make sense a Black Mecca...is going to be in the South.” (04:50, Dr. Black)
• On Gentrification and Ownership:
  • “We sold Atlanta to Wall Street. ... For the first time in decades...we may start being a transition from predominantly black leadership...” (08:41, Kim)
• On White Supremacy and Belonging:
  • “White people get the privilege of ubiquity...Black people always have to answer the question of why are you over here?” (20:04, Dr. Black)
• On Black Communal Living:
  • “My sister accomplished the thing that was most important to her—she bought a multifamily home...her children, their families, always have somebody.” (45:12, Kim)
• On Malcolm-Jamal Warner’s Legacy:
  • “He was always walking in his calling, and he always went out of his way to make himself available to people.” (56:07, Dr. Black)
  • “There are people who love you out loud when it’s convenient...that love is fleeting. [Malcolm’s] wasn’t.” (54:34, Kim)
• On Ritual and Grieving:
  • “The only thing that I missed is I wish there were a bit more ritual around his transition...because ritualizing helps those of us who are still in the living realm to drink closure, to have peace about it.” (53:01, Dr. Black)

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Important Timestamps by Segment

• 01:32 – First major topic; personal/professional backgrounds
• 04:50 – Dr. Black on Atlanta’s roots and HBCUs
• 08:11 – Gentrification, homeownership, culture-makers leaving
• 13:43 – Blackness, spatial awareness, and adapting to white spaces
• 23:13 – “Swinging tree theory” and generational trauma
• 28:00 – ‘Bye Bye Black’ documentary and Maynard Jackson’s legacy
• 30:02 – Colorism and Atlanta’s Black elite
• 35:13 – Respectability politics and desire for white validation
• 45:12 – Intergenerational communal living
• 47:51 – New intentional Black communities/land
• 49:20 – Remembrance of Malcolm-Jamal Warner begins
• 61:01 – Libation ceremony for Malcolm and the ancestors

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a nuanced, emotionally resonant exploration of Atlanta’s present and future, threaded through with poignant reflections on community, legacy, and the continuing struggle for Black self-determination. With personal stories, trenchant social analysis, and an unforgettable tribute to Malcolm-Jamal Warner, it stands as both a record of change and a call to honor the ancestors—past, present, and newly departed.

Transcript

[Kim]

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[Dr. Black]

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[Kim]

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[Dr. Black]

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[Kim]

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[Interviewer]

Who could use your help?

[Kim]

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[Dr. Black]

That's horrible. You.

[Interviewer]

You have siblings?

[Dr. Black]

I do.

[Interviewer]

Do.

[Dr. Black]

I have three of each, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Now, I read your book Black on Black on Black. I just don't. It's been the Elber year, though.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Remember all the church, right? You like a bunch of music? I remember all church bars and the singing and the.

[Dr. Black]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Interviewer]

All the things.

[Dr. Black]

All the things.

[Interviewer]

And how long. And so when you graduate from Clark, you never left Atlanta?

[Dr. Black]

I did. I went to England and got a master's Oxford.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Dr. Black]

Then I went to Temple and got a PhD. And then I've came full circle.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you have seen some cities. All right. And you. You've seen a lot of cities.

[Dr. Black]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

And you actually left Atlanta, went to Chicago.

[Kim]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And then came back or LA? Yes.

[Kim]

So I moved to Atlanta in 95 and stayed here for like a year, went back home to Chicago for several years, moved back to Atlanta State for a year, then went to California. So I was in California for four years and then come back here ever since I came back.

[Interviewer]

So do you believe in this concept of the black Mecca? You know, I'm from North Jersey. I come down here, record the show, and then, you know, it's an amazing feeling. I always like to go back home.

[Kim]

Too, because New York is my favorite. The airport here is an amazing feeling. There's not many airports where when you walk in the airport, you look around, everybody's black. Even.

[Dr. Black]

Even the art. Yeah.

[Kim]

Yeah, even in the art. Like, the. I remember the first time I went to Jamaica, and I got off the plane in Jamaica, and I saw, like, the. The murals that they have in the airport of Jamaica, like, Marcus Garvey and all these people, and I was like, oh, my God. There's black revolutionaries on the walls. And then when I did the exchange and the airport got my money, I'm like, it's black people on the mining. And it was a bunch of authors we were traveling in for this thing that they do. It's amazing. You should do beauty in a book box. I will connect her to $ you.

[Interviewer]

It in a book box.

[Kim]

Beauty in a book box. It's a. It's a subscription box that comes once a month, and you get beauty products and a. A black author's book in it. But she does a book retreat twice a year, and none of them are in the states. They're all international. And so she'll bring in, like, three authors to come in. Like, I did it the year we went to Jamaica. Tameka Newhouse did it, and she would have to go to Iceland. I was like, y' all could take.

[Interviewer]

Me to Iceland here.

[Kim]

I took myself to Jamaica. Yeah. She went to go see the northern lights and everything. And I was like. And it was the next year, and they booked her in Geely, and I was like, me, Jamaica, you, Iceland.

[Interviewer]

Cause Hallmark. Here. She goes with her hallmark. Here she goes with hallmark.

[Kim]

Yes. So I was with a bunch of other authors who had came in from other parts of the country, and I was like, all the money, all the.

[Interviewer]

Views on the wall, all this.

[Kim]

And they were like, kim, you live in Atlanta.

[Interviewer]

Mm. And they're like, you live in the map.

[Kim]

They're like, this is not. Except this is not an abnormality for you. And I was like, oh, no, it's nice.

[Interviewer]

But do you feel. Do you feel like that when you hear that? Do you feel like. Yeah, I am. Like, when you're in Atlanta.

[Dr. Black]

I don't know that I think about it consciously, but I think it's true. And I think it's true because. I actually think it's true because of slavery. Any place you're gonna that you bind people for 400 years. At some point the descendants of those folks are going to gather. Right. And so it would make sense a black mecca in America is going to be in the South. It could have been here. It could have been Mississippi. It could have been, you know, Alabama. Right, right, sure. But it's gonna be in the South. Right. Because this is the place where black people have our roots, you know. And I think the other thing that makes Atlanta peculiar is the conglomeration of HBCUs. So you get so many college educated black kids, black young adults each year turning out Clark, Atlanta, Spelman, Morehouse, Morris Brown, itc, Morehouse School of Medicine. You have all these schools right here together. And so you get literally thousands of middle class, educated black kids, all who graduate every year and many of who stay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, listen, you stayed.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

For people who don't know this, you went to Clark.

[Dr. Black]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And then you graduated and then you, you went away. More education.

[Dr. Black]

Right.

[Interviewer]

Oxford, Temple. When you came back.

[Dr. Black]

I came back. Right.

[Kim]

What brought you back?

[Dr. Black]

The memory of having been here.

[Kim]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Black]

I had such a great time at Clark. I had such great, incredible professors. I just had. I had an amazing education at Clark. I just had an absolutely amazing education. And I wanted to then assure that for future generations of black kids because it had happened for me and it had changed my life. So I'm. This is my 32nd year on faculty, so I pray I've been doing what was done for me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. Look, they like you. They like this. You stand. They're going to keep you. Yeah, they all look. Especially with the speeches that you are giving online. Well, graduation.

[Dr. Black]

Certainly always going viral.

[Kim]

Always going viral.

[Interviewer]

I am sure that you increase the applications there.

[Dr. Black]

Well, I won't deny that I will. I'm sure there's a link. That's right. There's a correlation somewhere.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What's one of your most popular, by the way, that you. That you saw? Hey, that's gotten quite a few million views.

[Dr. Black]

Well, I mean, you know, the graduation speech I did last year in 2024 really hit hard and has gotten, I mean, has just gone all over the world. And everywhere I go, every airport, every conference, everywhere I go, people reference it or talk about it. And so I'm just really, really happy to have said something that moves black people like that. That's really what I'm really talking about. The ways in which that speech really lit a fire under black people in terms of self love and self determination and a kind of open celebration of themselves.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I Find it interesting that I asked you two the same question. And I asked, are people coming to or leaving Atlanta? You said they're leaving. You said, I think they're coming. And I think. I don't know if it's a fine mix, but I'm wondering why you each said that. Why do you think they're leaving?

[Kim]

So when I'm saying that I think people are leaving, I am specifically talking about black people. Okay? So I do believe there is a large number of people who are coming to Atlanta. But my reference to people are leaving are the tastemakers and the culture makers of Atlanta are. Are leaving and not leaving in the sin of leaving, leaving the state, but leaving, leaving the city of Atlanta proper because just.

[Dr. Black]

Oh, you mean like for the suburbs.

[Kim]

Yeah, for the surrounded areas and places like that. Just because we had a serious influx of Wall street to come in and buy single family homes and to out price them in a way that it forced many of our residents to become renters as opposed to owners. A lot of our legacy residents who had lived in communities in the city proper for 30, 40, 50 years either have been taxed out of their homes. And for the ones who unfortunately transitioned, the next generation of their family was not able to, as we would say, keep grandma's house. And so we're looking at, for the first time in decades in Atlanta that there may start being a transition from predominantly black leadership in the halls of city council and the State House to a more diverse mix. Just because the demographic in the city is changing. We were the predominant number for decades. There has been a very large change in the past 14 to 15 years of that that keeps taking, ticking up towards us, heading for the minority for the first time in decades. And that is due to the. That is due to the housing crisis we are experiencing because, you know, and this is controversial to say we sold Atlanta to Wall Street. So when you look at that and then you look at the displacement of jobs because of the economy that we're in, nationally particularly, we had an influx of people come in in the last 15 years because of the TV and film market. That TV and film market is bling for other countries and for greener pastures and other towns. And so we had all these people came in from LA and New York, which was culturally diverse that came in that could, especially what we call in the movie business, the below the line jobs. They could come in and get the below the line jobs and actually be able to afford a home in a way that they couldn't in New York. And la. And they moved here for that work. And now that work has gone. And so I'm looking, I'm interested to see what that impact does. Same thing with the tech world. Moved here in great numbers. And now, you know, has. Has. They're not fleeing in the way the TV and film community is, but are stalled in a way. And so I do agree with Dr. Black that people are coming, but it's who's coming and. And the culture and the pulse of Atlanta, you know, and my. In my brother Bim Joyner's voice, Atlanta influences everything. And so that culture that is created, particularly black culture that has been created, the creators are leaving the city.

[Interviewer]

Well, let me quote Kim, who was coming.

[Dr. Black]

I think black people in general are coming. Right. I do think black people in general are coming. I think that also, though housing prices have definitely risen in Atlanta, the irony is that it's still not as high as New York.

[Interviewer]

True. Now this is true.

[Dr. Black]

Still not San Francisco. Yeah.

[Kim]

Still not la. Chicago.

[Dr. Black]

Right, right, right, right, right. The other thing that I think, I think there. There are some things that are really attractive about Atlanta. You get urban space, you get urban options, and you also get a kind of landmass that's. That's hard to get in like an la. Like you can get a house with an actual yard, you know.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Dr. Black]

Which is hard to find in Brooklyn.

[Kim]

Yeah. Or even just buying raw land.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah, right, right, right. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I also think that I've been seeing and hearing a lot of black folks talk about the notion of moving back to the land, meaning even notion of wanting to raise their own food and.

[Interviewer]

Live its law from it.

[Dr. Black]

Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Because, you know, the world is getting insane and all of that now and again. I'm going to go back to HBCUs, I think. I think it's hard to see the ways in which I think the black colleges in Atlanta really keep Atlanta going in terms of black businessmen, black business, women, doctors, lawyers, like a good proportion of them come out of the Atlanta University center school.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they do. But when you go to wider spaces, are you actually as cognizant too, the way you were. You went to Jamaica and said, oh, my goodness, all these pictures. When you go to white spaces.

[Dr. Black]

Quiet. You think white.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Are you saying. Do you. Are you struck by.

[Dr. Black]

Because he said Jamaica. I was like, that ain't Jamaica.

[Interviewer]

No, not at all. But she was. She was struck by Jamaica at its. That she was struck by Jamaica.

[Kim]

Yes. Black faces on the money and all of that.

[Interviewer]

You also struck. When you're around in white spaces, like, oh, there's a white people here. Or does that not settle on you?

[Kim]

It does settle on me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kim]

It also settles on me because, you know, I've lived in Atlanta at this point, I think I'm in Atlanta, right? Like, because I've lived in Atlanta more years than I lived in my hometown of Chicago, right? But Chicago, there's a reason why Dr. King said when he went to Chicago.

[Interviewer]

He was like, I came from the.

[Kim]

South, and this is the most racist place I ever been in my life. What y' all say down here in Chicago? Chicago's very segregated. So. Because Chicago, even still to this day is extremely segregated. Even though I grew up in a city that was not a black mecca like Atlanta, our neighborhoods and the communities that I grew up in Chicago were very black. You know, they were very, very black. And so even to go, like, to be aware that I was in a white community, that would happen to me in my town of Chicago, I was like, oh, I'm on the north side. I forgot I'm seeing all of these white people now, because when I'm on the south side. Because the street that I grew up on, this is one of the things that made me and Malcolm fall in love with each other. And jokingly, we're like, we might be cousins. Is that the street that I grew up on while it's in Chicago was on the same street that his grandparents and his father lived on? Malcolm and I grew up all of our youth six blocks away from each other and didn't know each other till we were adults, Right? And so. But the neighborhood that we come from was settled by the Pullman Porters. So, like, you know, I would have to go to the north side. And when I went to private school, that's when I was, you know, aware. Like, oh, there's all these white people around. Cause I grew up in a predominantly, you know, middle class, settled black community on the south side of Chicago. So, yeah, when I go to places and living in Atlanta and then even like when I lived in la, I didn't. I didn't live in the parts of LA that are predominantly. Right. My family's in Compton, so I lived in Compton and I lived in, you know, I lived in places like that as well, where it's still very, very conscious people were there. You know, there are parts of. Like my. My aunt owned businesses in Compton for 50 years, and all of her friends and counterparts were business owners and educators in Compton. So, you know, for me, I am aware I was schools in high school and parts of my academic career in spaces that were predominantly white. I've had the opportunity to have jobs that allowed me to travel the world where I got to see people all over the world. And I am aware of it. But I think that my mother, being who my mother was, what was instilled with me is that even though I'm aware of these spaces, I don't adjust for those spaces.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And that adjustment part, I would imagine, is a very big part.

[Dr. Black]

I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm ever aware of it. Uh, I don't ever find myself in all white spaces.

[Kim]

I love that.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Dr. Black]

No, I teach. I teach at a black school.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Dr. Black]

Go to a black church. I.

[Interviewer]

When you're invited out on your tours, it's generally black.

[Dr. Black]

It is. And there I have, like, this time.

[Interviewer]

You were in a predominantly white space.

[Dr. Black]

When I was in high school in rural Arkansas. Yeah. And of course, I went to Oxford, England, and that was pretty white, but it was really pretty. It was fairly black, too, because there were lots and lots of us as international students. But certainly in my adult life. And I'll go to white schools and speech, but even when I do that, most of the audience at the white schools is the black students of the white schools. Copy. But that's because I'm always talking. I'm always talking to black people.

[Kim]

Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah. That's my audience.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Dr. Black]

So.

[Interviewer]

Right, Right. So. And when you. I mean, you write. Anybody can read your book, but.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah. And I want the whole world to read it.

[Interviewer]

Sure, sure.

[Kim]

But then they should. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

And they should. But the people who pick it up when you go out, they are predominantly black.

[Dr. Black]

For sure.

[Kim]

Do you feel like you unconsciously or consciously have curated that life for yourself to be in predominantly black spaces? And I know you. I know you're saying it' because of what you're talking about and who you're creating for, but do you think on some unconscious level you're like, I'm so blackity black that, like. You know what I mean? Like, I'm unconsciously in these spaces?

[Dr. Black]

And I don't think so. I don't think so. Because I've never, ever thought about it that way. I think that I'm just so radically black in terms of things I say, that most white people would not volunteer to be my audience.

[Kim]

Understood.

[Interviewer]

Sorry, you missed.

[Kim]

I get it. I get it.

[Interviewer]

They would not volunteer. Be my. That sound a little sinister.

[Kim]

I'll be simple. I wish they would.

[Interviewer]

They would not want to blur because you said that. Now in my mind, I saw Dr.

[Kim]

Black in, like, his cape.

[Dr. Black]

What? That's so.

[Kim]

I just never.

[Dr. Black]

I never thought about that. I just never thought about it.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think that's amazing, you know, because, um, after all these years, when I look at my career. Yes, I worked at BET and then I worked at a black show for PBS affiliated station. I worked at bnc, if y' all remember, Blackhoo's channel. Yes, Lord. That channel went off, we were on air and we got the message of like, your day is done. It's like, wait, what? We're all done.

[Dr. Black]

Wow.

[Kim]

All out.

[Interviewer]

I love bnc. I do that show a couple times. Oh, you did? Yeah, I did.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yes. It was the morning show. We all got. So. So then they went. And then. And then now I'm. This is a black space.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Everybody can watch. And I've had that. I've asked that question of myself. Did I do that somewhere intentionally and didn't know it? Or. I mean, but then I also teach at a predominantly white institution. But generally, in terms of just my career and what I have chosen, or maybe I thought in my head, I have a more, you know, more of a likelihood to be in this phase because I don't know what it has. But I have found myself and a lot of black spaces.

[Dr. Black]

See, I don't think it's necessarily a consequence of anything because when we turn this around, I don't know that. I don't know that any white person would ever even get this question.

[Interviewer]

You are right.

[Dr. Black]

Right. They. Most white people dwell in white spaces because that's where the seed was planted.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Dr. Black]

So that's where it grew and bloomed. Right. And say, I think the same thing. Right. I think the same thing. For me, in many instances. What's also true is I think that white people get the privilege of ubiquity. Like, I think they get the privilege to move and to be and to exist and never have to explain it, never have to justify. I think black people, I think, always have to answer the question of why are you over here?

[Kim]

We do.

[Interviewer]

Because of the fact that I will leave the house and I will not have any thought of, okay, I'm black, getting into the car until somebody else reminds me. It's always a reaction to something for something that I either need to adjust because I've learned that that's what you do, or something that I have to answer to because. Well, answer. Answer to it. Because you have to get through the day. Let me give an example. Moved into my neighborhood, you know, easy, beauty, easy. When I say. My girlfriend says, easy, breezy, beautiful, instead. Instead of COVID girl, color girl, you're a pal. I love that love. Just minding my own business. And then two people knock at the door throughout the week, and they wanted to know, well, I was there. Well, who were you with? What do you do for a living? Or where do you go? Like, they. They had to know what my situation was because I lived. I moved into the house by myself. And they just. One guy is just like, I don't understand. And he had to know, was I a lesbian? You know, he. He just had to figure out what was this black girl doing in this house that she bought by herself. He was so curious. So many times when I am talking about myself being black, it's only because of a reaction. Well, you're right. We do. We are asked to justify ourselves and answer to their. Sometimes it's their curiosity, and I have to think.

[Dr. Black]

I don't think that's curiosity. There's another word I would use for that.

[Interviewer]

What was that?

[Dr. Black]

Okay, I know.

[Interviewer]

What's the word?

[Dr. Black]

Yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't think for. I don't think for a white man to wonder to. To ask you, like, why are you here? What are you doing here? Who are you?

[Kim]

Are you.

[Dr. Black]

And I don't think that's curious at all.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Dr. Black]

Right. Because that doesn't sound like creativity budding. That sounds like. To me. That sounds to me like. Like white supremacy, quite frankly.

[Kim]

Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds like policing to me.

[Dr. Black]

It sounds to me like he just. Yeah, the whiteness is trying to figure out how did this encroachment happen.

[Interviewer]

And. And the. The teaching, though, see, this isn't happened to you at your job. The teaching, I find more just at. At work. And even that you probably would say the same thing. And I need to look at how people at work, especially when I was first there. Yeah, it was, you know.

[Kim]

Well, I think also, as a community, we've also are very aware of that style of policing. The consequence of it, because the consequence of that to black bodies for us. Looks like Hill's casket open. Why are you here? Who are you talking to? In which way do you speak to this person? You know, I have a theory. This is. I just want to be clear. This is me. This is my philosophy.

[Interviewer]

Okay? Theorize, Kim. Theorize.

[Kim]

This is a Kim theory. I think about, like, throughout all of our childhood, especially our generation Right. We are all familiar with the grocery shopping with your mother. And you go in and it's like, when we get in this door, don't ask for anything, don't touch anything, don't pick anything up. And we've been taught throughout our lifetime that this was about etiquette, about how you behave in this door, and that some of us even believe, maybe it was a little bit rooted in shame that our mothers knew, that our parents knew that we couldn't afford the things that we would be asking for and they didn't want the public embarrassment of having to say no because of economics. But I think I call it the swinging tree theory is that I think about if my five year old and my mother was born in 1946. Right. So if my mother, at four in 1950 in rural Mississippi had broken something in the store that my, my mother, my grandmother couldn't pay for, the consequence could be as dire as my grandfather hanging from a tree that night. And so there was no room for error when my mother was in that store. There was no room for her to explore as a child and touch things and be tactile and feel things on her fingers and potentially touch something, break something, encroach upon somebody's space because it could have very severe consequence. And so you had to be stern with your child. When we get in this store, don't you touch anything, don't you pick anything up, don't you do anything. Right. And then it's passed down generationally as etiquette. But I theorize that I don't think it's rooted in etiquette. I think it's rooted in survival. And we have a lot of survival that's rooted in the perceived encroachment upon white spaces and their. What has been passed down to them generationally is that they are entitled to the policing of us in their space.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Yeah, that is true. And. And I knew that he was asked, he wanted to see what type of black. Yeah.

[Kim]

Are you the good back or the bad back?

[Interviewer]

That's right. That's right. Looking at property values. I knew that. I knew that for that.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Hmm. I am thinking about your bye bye black. And I just wanted to hear a little bit about this is a documentary that you're doing and what's your goal in that and what have you gotten so far?

[Kim]

So when we originally shouts out to our executive producer, Will, when he originally the director, a par, who's a dear friend of mine, came to me and said, hey sis, I want you to produce this documentary. And, you know, the executive producer is an Atlanta native, born and raised, and he has this idea that he wants to study how and why Atlanta became a black Mecca, if it is still a black mecca, and how gentrification is affecting that. And so, you know, we originally dug deep on our research. We got to interview some amazing people. You know, we talked to Killer Mike and attorney Gerald Griggs from the NAACP and all these amazing people, and worked with the Auburn Library and on deep research on the subject. And, you know, Will is a native, so he wanted it to be a love song to what a black Mecca could be and what it. What it could look like. But the deeper we dug, what we realized was, despite the fact that the documentary was about Atlanta, and then we went to go get people like Gary Chambers and stuff like that, is that this really was about it being a central place of the south, and how the south itself has the potential to be our most wealthy source for black excellence, for black. For black power, for black wealth building. And that Atlanta is just kind of like the middle turnkey that. That sprouts out to. To all of it and what that looks like and how we can influence the south in general. But one of the things that, you know, was something that I feel like I knew to a certain degree, but it got deeper in was intentional black leadership. That the times in which the Mecca was built as we know it is when we had mayors like Maynard Jackson, who was intentional in the way he wanted black people to participate in the potential wealth of Atlanta. He intentionally went and gave contracts, you know, city contracts, to black builders and developers. He knew that also for them to be prepared, that they had to have the skilled labor that was attached to that. So he put trade schools in all of the high schools. So the web that he built for these contracts extended to education. He started building medical clinics. And he also. He was intentional about grooming the next generation of leaders that were going to follow him. Which to me, out of all the things that he has done, um, one of the things that I love the most is the airport project. Because when you land here, you land in this black man's airport.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you do.

[Kim]

And it is the busiest airport in the world now. And that is that, you know, we know who Hartsfield is, but we also know who Jackson is. And even if people don't know Jackson, the amount of black millionaires that was built from that airport contract because of him is the reason why we have the black wealth. And so I was already madly in love with Maynard Jackson as a leader. And I became even more in love with him through doing this documentary and listening to the language centered around him. Because often politically, black people do feel like they have to toe the line and be like, I'm everybody's president, I'm everyone's mayor. I'm everyone's governor. Maynard was like, I'm black people's mayor. Love it, hate it. I'm black people's mayor. And I'm intentional about that. And my decision and my policy is very intentional about that.

[Interviewer]

And you were here during that time?

[Dr. Black]

Not quite, no, No. I didn't get to Atlanta until the mid-80s.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Dr. Black]

Right. In fact, when I got here, Maynard had already finished. Maynard was coming. The thing I think that's interesting about Atlanta is the ways in which I think much of what Kim's saying is so profound. One of the things I think that's interesting is the class politics of Atlanta, though. And that is, you know, I think even before our current mayor. What's his name?

[Kim]

Dickens.

[Dr. Black]

Mayor Dickens. All of Atlanta's mayors are extremely light skinned people. Right. Shirley, Franklin, Wayne and James, all the black ones are all very light skinned. Right. Which, which means something in terms of coming from the South. Right, right.

[Interviewer]

We know that.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Atlanta certainly wanted a certain kind of black royalty. Right. And in many ways got it. Right. But there are politics around that, even skin color politics. I think that's extremely important. And this played out once again in AU center schools too, because there was a time when most of these schools were filled with light skinned black kids.

[Interviewer]

True.

[Dr. Black]

You know, true. And so, and so I think that piece of the dynamic is important at some point for some sociologists to look at too. That's not my lane.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Dr. Black]

But I have noticed it.

[Interviewer]

You've noticed it. And you have noticed that. And I remember in your book you've noticed that in other spaces. Just. Oh, for sure. We prop up as to who's. What beauty is.

[Dr. Black]

Sure, sure.

[Kim]

Yeah, absolutely. I think I, I could not agree with that more particularly my video that went viral. I think a lot of times if people go back and look at it, they latch on to my monopoly analogy of explaining, you know, how the disparagement in wealth and what that looks like in terms of Monopoly and, and they lean into the, the middle and end piece of it, where I'm talking particularly to white America and about white America and their participation in our demise. Um, but if people listen to the beginning, like how it starts, the first of that six minutes, the first two minutes. My commentary is to the Atlanta black bourgeois.

[Interviewer]

Mm.

[Kim]

And I say I've been hearing a lot of things, particularly from wealthy black people. And that the spark of that video was rooted in my response to something that really. And we talked about this before, that really bothered me is that when I went down after the civil unrest that took place around the CNN center during the civil unrest connected to George Floyd, there were upscale, wealthy black people. There was some colorism in that participation, which made me think about it when he said that that had purchased out of their own pocket things to repair all of the buildings downtown Atlanta. They had bought the material you need to get spray paint off of buildings. They had brought their own cleaning supplies. And I was down there doing some. Some woman on the street for a documentary. And I kept asking them why they were there and why they had spent their own money to clean up after the civil unrest. And many of them to. To just cap it said, we don't want them to think that we're all like this. And. And I was like, who is the we? Is. Who is the we and who. Who are the they that you speak of that you are concerned about? And it struck me, and honestly, that's why I come off so angry in that video, because that is the spark. Which is why the first two minutes is about the black bourgeois. Because I'm like, First of all, Dr. King already taught us that riots are the language of the unheard. Right? We've asked. We've asked, and we've asked, and we've asked again until there's a bubbling point, you know, and if you. And the words of our good brother Tupac, if you keep opening the caterer's door to the food, the man outside eventually is coming in. And so that first two minutes of that speech is me breaking down my frustration with the ideology of the black bourgeois in that moment, centering the white gaze and how that bothered me. And so I think a lot of times, because our words in the diaspora are so public and our culture has been so bought and sold, we have difficulty having those in house conversations because we know that we have them. Any platform that we're having them on is, generally speaking, not owned by us. And then it'll eventually be weaponized by us. And it has put us in a position, to me, to a degree where we not only lie to the world, but we're lying to each other.

[Interviewer]

Other, I'm gonna have you respond, because I do not want this going off again. Go ahead.

[Dr. Black]

I agree. I do agree. I do agree. I think also that still, for me, I think we are a bit too ensconced in respectability politics as black people in general. Part of this is because I think we, as black people, I think we cannot yet decide just how much white supremacy we want.

[Kim]

Right, right.

[Dr. Black]

We don't want all of it. Most folks are clear about that. But we want pieces of it. And the problem with wanting pieces of it is that it is going to take respectability politics to get it. In many instances. We hate the performance of what it means to participate in some of these traditionally white centered spaces, but we cannot seem to get rid of the desire. It's like the way often we as black people have imagined heaven. Right. Our imagination of heaven is really, really very much governed and controlled by capitalist politics. Right. Streets of gold, pearly gates, you know, folks in long white robes. You know, heaven is unbelievably material. Right. And unbelievably bourgeois. Right. But it's like, but I don't want no. I don't want no white God. But then we want a material heaven, you know? And so I'm saying that the thing I think that gets complicated for so many of us, and I'm including myself as black people, is, you know, I've worked hard. I have a right to have a house like this. I have.

[Interviewer]

We've been talking about this. Yeah, okay.

[Dr. Black]

But I think that's really an announcement of the ways in which our hope has been, in many ways, to insist whiteness with our achievement and not. And not just have it.

[Kim]

Yeah, it's kind of like.

[Dr. Black]

It's kind of like the ways in which some black people would go and like, I bought the plantation that my grandfather was once on, as if. As if that's to say to white people, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. I own it now. See, that's misguided, though.

[Interviewer]

Mm.

[Dr. Black]

Is misguided. Because then. Because then part of my thrust is actually the insult of the whiteness.

[Interviewer]

I see what you're saying.

[Kim]

Right, right.

[Interviewer]

That's part of the impetus of you doing it.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Is the insult.

[Dr. Black]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[Kim]

It's also a mimicking. Right. So even. Even the concept of owning land, like, conceptually now we have bought so into it. That does. That doesn't sound like an abnormality to us, but like, who are we to own land? Land that is. And I understand why we can no longer be nomadic people in that way, where it's like, okay, we're going to camp here and then we go and we're going to move there. But Just the idea of ownership of land and the false concept of. Of owning land. Because if I own this land, then the tax man shouldn't be able to take it from me if I actually own it. Because the lipstick that I bought in my purse, no one can come take it from me for taxes. I paid the tax on it when I purchased it, and now it's mine. So I feel like there's also a falsehood to ownership of the land because technically the government still owns the land, because if I don't pay them my. My way in, then they can still come take this land that I own. But even when you think about the way in which, like many indigenous communities view the ownership of land, whether it's indigenous people of the Americas or on the continent or in China or. Or, you know, in certain spaces, there is no concept of owning land, of owning water, of selling water like this. You know, imagine if we went back 3, 4, 800,000 years. This sounds like insanity, right? To, oh, to I own this crop of grass. And so this we. To his. To Dr. Black's point, like, we have bought in to the construct that we claim to despise so much in such a way that oftentimes I don't think that we want to abolish it. We just want to transition to the position of ruling.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think it has to do partly with the fact that so many people, you know, and they're growing up and they. They didn't know about, I don't know, the house in the Hamptons or down in Outer Banks. And when they are exposed to it, they're like, oh, is that what white folks are doing? Or is that what people besides my folks are doing? I'd like some of that. You're saying that that's okay, but the whole idea that you have the white part in it makes it a little off.

[Dr. Black]

I'm even saying. I think desiring it is problematic, okay? Because, see, it's like we only desire the big house because of who lived in it, right? And because we're contrasting the big house with the shacks we were in, right? And it's like, oh, it's like, oh, I should have the right to live in that just like anybody else. The problem, though, is that in slavery, slavery actually distorts one's notion, right? Of value system. Because it is not a greater life in the big house, right? If not. In fact, really, if you, If. If you. If you took things piece by piece, it's only a materiality in there.

[Interviewer]

Like the things that really matter that.

[Dr. Black]

I want the dressing from the shack. You can have. You can have the stuffing in the big house. Right, right. You see what I'm saying?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Black]

Right. Yeah. So. But the notion that they have a comfortable bed, you know, I get that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Black]

You know, I get that kind of thing. And so in other words, I want us to pour our energy into the things that make us stronger, that make us better based upon the values that we have, not based upon, oh, if they have this, then I should be able to have that also. As if that is the achievement and that's even the goal of education. Just to be in a position, right. To be able to acquire the same kind of things anybody else can acquire. Because I just have a right to. I think it really makes me ultimately pour my money into the same coffers they pour their money into, which is always their coffer.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so this leads us back to the beginning of the conversation because for me, when you come down to Atlanta and so many black people in mansions and many McMansions and all of that, and that kind of speaks to what you're speaking to and that the aspiration is that we can have this and we can be here, but that really is a value system that has been impacted by how we see other people. So again, I'm just thinking about Atlanta, what it represents and being able to 20 years ago, by the way, how much our house is now like what is a four bedroom, three bath house. Because I remember when they were, you know, 140, you know, many. Yeah. So what are they now?

[Kim]

I'm closer to 500. Closer to 500.

[Interviewer]

So. Yeah, but those aspirations are still in people to have that. And I'm wondering what you think about that. Because up north that is all we hear. And that is, you know, what the fact is. But that's the aspiration. I can get a house, especially 20 years ago, that I can afford.

[Kim]

And it's big.

[Interviewer]

It's going to be big. And that's the main thing. It's going to be big.

[Dr. Black]

You know, and again, I just think that slave mentality, okay, that the bigger, bigger, bigger. I just want bigger than what I have on. You know, I even. I've even thought about. I think one of the worst moves black people made was to move to the place where the. Let me say it another way, you know, haven't taught in the AU center now for 30 years. I believe that black people would have then and now would do better if a parent stayed home and didn't work either one of Them.

[Interviewer]

Say that again.

[Dr. Black]

Why do the parents stay home and downsize the house? Go from a 5,000 square foot house to a 2,500 square foot house? Same people. Same people. Right. But you can pay half for it. Right. But the level of your influence multiplies in it. Mm. I. I believe that a child does better. A child does better who has a parent much more accessible like this physically.

[Interviewer]

The physicality.

[Dr. Black]

Absolutely, absolutely. And parents, we're killing ourselves. We're spending all of our energy, most of our time, trying to do the things to pay for this mansion.

[Interviewer]

You got that right.

[Dr. Black]

Right. So the kids, of course, are on social media. Of course they're doing other things because we're exhausted. Because I'm trying to work two jobs, Right. To pay for this. But what we're trading out for it. It's not worth it.

[Interviewer]

You know, I think about Prince George's County, Maryland, very wealthy black county, but also has a seriously high rate of domestic violence. And for the reason that you're saying because money is an issue, Tasha, everything just fluid inside of there.

[Kim]

I always say my, like, my inspiration, the person that, you know, we have waves of inspiration throughout our life. I, I'm always think it's funny when people are like, who's your inspiration? And they're like, John Jingleheimer Smith. And I'm like, it changes from day to day from. I'm. I'm inspired at this table with this conversation today, and I'll be inspired by something tomorrow. But one of the people who I am consistently inspired by is. Is one of my older sisters. And the reason why my sister is one of my inspirations. My sister's an rn. Has done well for herself, her, you know, her entire life. She was, she was. Of the seven of us, she was the. The good one. She was the one who followed the path, who went to school, who did. Who did everything right. But the reason why my sister is like, my sister Gigi is my greatest inspiration is because my sister accomplished the thing that was the most important to her is that she bought a multifamily home. And that's all she cared about. And it wasn't about proximity to whiteness or anything like that. It was because she wanted a space where she could have a large family. So my sister's children are now adults. Like, they're grown, they're married, they have children, they have families of their own. Her children live there in that multifamily home that she purchased. Her daughter lives there with her husband and their children. Her son lives there with his wife and his children. And even when they are busy and surviving, Gigi is there, right? My sister is there.

[Dr. Black]

Sure.

[Kim]

I have my communion. It's very communal. I call my sister all the time, and I'm like, what are you doing? And she's like, it's just me and the grandbabies and, you know, and all five, you know, all of. All of her grandchildren are there and they're playing in the living room with Gigi and she's. And she's cooking for them. And my sister still works, but they work as a system. Her children, her children's spouses and the kids. And in a way that those kids always have somebody. Have somebody. They always have somebody. And guess what? All of them can always grow. So if her son in law, who is a professional fighter, has to get on the road, they can figure out in the house, is his brother in law gonna ride with him and the girls are gonna stay at home this time, who's gonna go? What's Gigi's schedule like? They are working as a collective. And I'm gonna be honest, there are people who don't understand that plan. And they're like, your kids are grown. You should put them out. They shouldn't still be there. And I'm like, don't you listen to those fools who are like, what you have created, what it is giving your grandchildren money came by all their proximity.

[Interviewer]

And really the way that we live and the cost of living, it is made for where living like that makes more financial sense. It does. I mean, the houses that, that people are, especially in this economy that are being built now, it is. It literally almost makes people feel like they're forced. We were talking about this earlier. It's like if you're married, you're in a good, good, better position because you have two incomes. Yeah. But other than that, you. It's hard to singularly kind of move to, you know, Atlanta or Prince George's County. Like. Like, I moved. And so there are a lot of things in society that kind of lock you in to doing things, or maybe you feel compelled to do things because it's just so expensive. And this world is built on a. You're married system. Yeah, right.

[Kim]

And what she did was intentional, like the way her house is built. Those two couples have their own entrances. Like they can't get into each other's spaces. You know what I mean? Like, it was designed that way. And I think that to Dr. Black's point earlier of people talking about returning to the land and moving out Further so that they could get more space. A lot of people are doing it for that sense. You're seeing a lot of, like, black communities popping up where you'll see the ads that, you know, run on TikTok that are like, these 12 families bought this plot of land right down in land, actually. Right. Yeah. Brought this. And there's a lot of them now that brought these plot of land together. And they're all building houses. Well, they're not all building houses there just because it's cheap. They are also trying to build a community. They are. That's a.

[Interviewer]

With their own systems.

[Kim]

With their own systems. Because it's like, at some point when we recognize that adjusting their system is not happening, then. Then. Then we're all going to start leaning into that and saying, I need to create spaces where I can create my own system.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, listen, I want to. I want to pivot. And we have about 10 more minutes. Or it could go further if you need to. To talk about Malcolm, because I know that you were his mentor. That's how I was introduced. My mentor. That's why you are on here so many times, sir. We could bring Dr. Black back. We could bring. Well, you know what? We could bring Dr. Black back, but that's all right. That's all right. And you, you know, certainly was someone that he looked up to and would reach out to and cared about my baby. Yeah. And you've been back several times. Yeah. And I know that this has really been a time of adjustment for all of us still. Even if this airs six months from now, it's still going to be a process that we are all going through. When I came in, I didn't know that picture was up there. I told Troy, who's producer and creative director, I thought, ooh, that's a lot. I'm glad you showed it to me beforehand. Yeah. You know, because. And then when you guys came in, I said, you know, go take a look at it, because it's so real. It's like he's still here. It's like, what did you tell me earlier? You said, you know, I just. I called him. I'm like.

[Kim]

And I was like, why is he not answering the phone? Then I was like, ma', am, what are you doing?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it is like he's still.

[Kim]

But I, like, fuss at him all the time. Like, I have, like, my friends. I drive them insane because I have a. I don't know what my psychosis is around this, but I have a really interesting way in which I process loss when someone transitions is my first instinct is to be mad at them. Like, why would you leave me? And, you know, we still had stuff we had to do and conversations we needed to have and moments we dreamed about in, like. So I, like, I go through this phase where I, like, verbally fuss at them. And, like, I lost another really good friend this year. And one of the things that I. I. I kept saying, and my friends were like, kim, stop saying that. People don't understand why you're saying that, and you sound crazy. And I. They would say, oh. You know, when people would find out that he passed away, they would say, kim, what happened to Alvin? I said, he said, stupid ass up there and died.

[Interviewer]

And you, like, how did you do that?

[Kim]

Like, why would you do that? And I think it's a processing point for me, but definitely when it comes to Malcolm, I still feel his presence so heavily that I just talk to him all the time as this. You know, I just have conversations with him, outward conversations with him all the time. So when I came in here today, I was telling Lane, I said the first thing I said to him, like, when I went over to the picture, I said, you gonna like the lineup today? You okay with it? And I told Lane, I said, I think he's okay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I feel like he's okay with it. Mm. You saw I posted. I took your words from people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that was, you know, it was just really. It was just really beautiful to think about. I mean, I guess I immediately just thought about the last moments and. Oh, you know, what happened? We were all wondering. And I was mad now, you know, because we. We were. We were talking that week. We were texting. We were texting. I even. There was even a text. I said, now they're telling me that you have died. Let me know. Call me back.

[Kim]

You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Or let me know what's up. It was just, you know, like.

[Kim]

It wasn't like, they are spreading, like, nasty rumors.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And saying that Malcolm has passed once again, I'm like, this is so exhausting. This is not the first. You know, that had been conspiracy before, and I was just, like, spreading one of those. They're circulating those lies again.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I don't know. And then most of the time, it's not. It's not anything that's too coherent, but it's just really an acknowledgement that he's here.

[Kim]

I feel him here.

[Interviewer]

I love this picture. That's beyond me. And the yellow flowers. I love the yellow flowers. And the sentiment, if everybody remembers the video of him talking about the flower with his daughter.

[Dr. Black]

Right.

[Interviewer]

But I thought, also very powerful is what you told me when you found out about. Is that you were writing.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you got the word, and it was just overpowered.

[Kim]

Like, it was promising.

[Dr. Black]

Pouring, rainy. It was just pouring. I was sitting at a restaurant and it was pouring rainy. And I saw that. And like you all. I said, this must be a joke.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Black]

Right. And then a friend of mine called me and said it was on tv, and I said, oh, no, this is not a joke. This is great. And it was just pouring rain. And so I just stopped and I said, malcolm, all right, all right. If you're ascending, go ahead, brother. Just. Just. Just go ahead. And. And after that, it stopped raining. Right. And I think what gave me peace is that he went in the water. That's what. Because, you know, we came here in the water as people. So, you know, from. From the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi river to the Euphrates to the Congo, you know, we had to escape across water to go from slavery to freedom. Like, every. Every movement of black people happened with some water way in womb and. Yeah, in the womb, absolutely. And. And so the notion that he. He went in the water with. Gave me a kind of comfort. Yeah. The only thing that I missed is I wish there were. And maybe it's coming, but I wish there were a bit more ritual around his transition, which we call funeralizing. Right. You know, whatever it could be. Because I think there's a way in which ritualizing helps those of us who are still in the living realm to drink closure, to have peace about it, but also to be able to meet God and the ancestors in a spiritual space and to have our conversation about what this is, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and to send our brother off collectively when somebody just kind of vanishes.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Black]

You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Closure.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah. Yeah. It makes it hard for the closure to happen.

[Kim]

Yeah, No, I completely agree with that. I think, you know, it's rare to.

[Interviewer]

Find.

[Kim]

People, when you do the type of work that I do, that Dr. Black does, who are not afraid to love you out loud. And there are people who love you out loud when it's convenient and when it's inconvenient, that love is fleeting.

[Dr. Black]

He was.

[Kim]

No, no, no, he wasn't.

[Dr. Black]

He was so bold about it.

[Interviewer]

He was.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it's inquisitive. You know, I. If people are. Are looking at the Instagram post and everybody who he affected, like, you know, People who he literally is texting and friends with and all of that. Really had time for soul people. And gave of himself in a way.

[Kim]

That was most radical of us.

[Interviewer]

Yes, the most radical of us. Like, that was. It was okay.

[Kim]

Yeah, it was.

[Interviewer]

And he was always learning and wanting to be. In fact, that's how he told me he met you. I think the book was recommended by his mom, maybe.

[Dr. Black]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And then he was like, I want.

[Kim]

To learn more about how to be.

[Interviewer]

Better in this space as a father, as a man, as all these things. And he was always. You know, even if it was a word, he was. I don't know what that word is. Tell me. He was all. He's learning. He was like, I want to learn, and I want to be that sponge. And that was incredible.

[Dr. Black]

I was amazed by his humility and his accessibility. I mean, to be as. As known as he was. I mean, this was a brother you could call up and he actually answered the phone. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Black]

Or text you or whatever, you know, And I felt like he never, ever, ever outgrew his calling. So I feel like he was always walking in his calling, and he was always. He was. He always went out of his way to make himself available to people.

[Interviewer]

He did.

[Dr. Black]

It was just a beautiful, beautiful thing. So for me, if. If there's an angel we needed, he was the one.

[Kim]

Yeah, he was. He was. He was definitely special.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Kim]

In a. In a. Really, again, to, like, what we were talking about, it's like, yes, he is this iconic creator. Yeah. And we would never, you know, deny that. And his work changed the way people. People's perception of us.

[Dr. Black]

Yeah.

[Kim]

His work changed the view of young black men, and he lived so honestly in that and so authentically in that for such a long time. But beyond his creative genius, prowess, impact, just as a human, just as a person, he was so authentic and true and accessible. And he loved us. He loved. You know, he loved his people.

[Interviewer]

He did.

[Kim]

With the.

[Interviewer]

With.

[Kim]

Without. He's like, listen, I'm accessible to the world, but I'm also not in denial that I have a special place in my heart for my people and who they are. And again, that shows how he was intentional about his friend group and who he chose.

[Interviewer]

He was very selective.

[Kim]

Very, very selective. And, you know, choosing Dr. Black as a mentor and choosing me as a sister and in those choices and, you know, people that, you know, people are afraid of, like. Like Reza, you know, choosing.

[Interviewer]

She's choosing to love.

[Kim]

Shameless. I was telling somebody a story the other Day about how one of my, you know, late night Instagram rants that I went on about, you know, my issues with the way that black people are handled in the music industry and that my. My expectations of young black men in the music industry. And Malcolm reposted it as he did a lot of my stuff. And then I saw. And I won't name names, uh, oh, but I saw. I saw several other people who follow him repost the video. And then later that day, I saw them all take the video down. But it remains even still now on hidden page. Because if he felt it were tried and true, he was not intimidated about exterior perception.

[Interviewer]

That's right. That's also how I felt about let's know that we will rise to the highest of expectations in how black folks are portrayed even this show. Like, you know, let's be careful about who we put on, and I'll be careful about who I am actually out there, you know, acting with and associating myself with. He kept all of that very close to him and always had that baton.

[Dr. Black]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

And I was always ready to teach and pass it on. Like, we can do better. We can do better.

[Kim]

And it's okay to have the conversation that we could do better.

[Interviewer]

That's right.

[Kim]

And that's the thing that I loved about him is, like, that we can have the conversation, which this platform was built on that, like, that you guys wanted to come together and say, we can find a way to have this conversation.

[Dr. Black]

Let's do it better.

[Kim]

And I just feel like, just from my personal perspective, I'm like, spiritually, I'm just like, I thought this always. And he and I talked about this always. Like, I'm like, Malcolm, we were just meant to be friends in some way. Because the fact that we spent our childhood playing blocks away from each other and the park. There's a park called Fernwood park that was dead smack. But in between. On our street.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kim]

In Chicago, that was in between my house and his house. And I'm like, I played at Fernwood all the time. He's like, I played at Fernwood all the time. We're only a few years apart. So I'm like, the chances that we didn't play at that park at some point in our childhood at the same time is slim.

[Interviewer]

Very slim.

[Kim]

But that we were adults when we found each other in this way is like, I've always been. I've always took that as like, you were. You were in my life plan.

[Dr. Black]

In fact, I would love. Is there a bottle of water here?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Black]

That's because if. If I would love to pour libation.

[Kim]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Black]

To Malcolm, because I've not seen that happen yet. Right. I'm. I'm gonna use the water with our bodies, and I'm gonna use this cup. This is his.

[Interviewer]

And I'm going to have you pause for a clean cut. Okay. Okay, go ahead.

[Dr. Black]

We come in this moment to give thanks to our ancestors. Those who fought, bled and died for us. Those who stood for us. Those who gave their lives for us. Those who shed their blood for us. A libation is an African cultural medium whereby a people gather to say thank you and to give acknowledgement to those who came before them, upon whose shoulders they stand, so that they never get so full of themselves that they ever forget that a people's greatness is only because of the ancestors who precede them. And so we come in this moment to honor a man, but we're going to honor the other ancestors who preceded him. So we give thanks for the life of folks such as Harriet Tubman. Ashe. Ashe. Such as Langston Hughes. Ashe. Ashe. It's Baldwin. Ashe. Sandy Lou Hamer. Ashe. Ashe. And y' all can call out names, too. We're just calling the names of ancestors. Yeah.

[Kim]

Jelenia C. Of the.

[Dr. Black]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Kim]

Martin Luther King.

[Dr. Black]

Ashe. Frederick Douglass.

[Kim]

Maya Angelou. Ida B. Wells.

[Dr. Black]

Ashe. Shirley Chisholm. Ashe. Come on, come on, come on, come on. Gwendolyn Bruce. Ashe. Paul Laurence Dunbar.

[Interviewer]

Langston Hughes.

[Dr. Black]

Shea. Henry Highland. Garnett.

[Kim]

Sojourner Truth.

[Dr. Black]

Sojourner Truth.

[Interviewer]

Charles Chestnut.

[Dr. Black]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

August Wilson.

[Dr. Black]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Marcus Garvey. Ashe. Ashe. Toni Morrison. Ade Ashe. Ashe. And Halle Selassie. Absolutely. Ashe. Patrisse Lamunda. Ashe. Inga Ashe. Mansa Musa. Absolutely. Sundiata. Ashe. Ashe. And to this long list of powerful, powerful elders, we now, in this moment, we add a name. And it is in adding this name that we give thanks for a life that we actually knew personally ourselves. A man just as great as all the other names we just called. A man who, in half the time, lived a life where he prepared the way and opened the way and cleared the path that we might know and love ourselves into perpetuity. We now add the name Malcolm Jamal Warner. We still doing it. Mal. Shape.

[Kim]

Always. Yes, always.

[Dr. Black]

Thank you for having so. Thank you for being here. So awesome. So, okay, it's not rocket science. Grayscale has been educating investors on crypto for over a decade. Grayscale. Invest in your share of the future. Investing involves risk and possible loss of principle. Visit grayscale.com for more information. Sometimes an identity threat is a ring.

[Kim]

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[Dr. Black]

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[Kim]

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[Dr. Black]

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