← Not All Hood (NAH) with Malcolm-Jamal Warner & Candace Kelley
Not All Hood (NAH) with Malcolm-Jamal Warner & Candace Kelley
Trump, ICE & Dual Citizenship: Can They Strip Your Status? | Dr. Omekongo Dibinga Explains -NAH The Weekly Drop with Candace Kelley
01:01:10
The Bigger Picture Also -On this week’s Not All Hood Weekly Drop, Candace Kelley sits down with Dr. Dabenga (American University), author of Lies About Black People, to unpack rising fears around dual citizenship, naturalization, and denaturalization. They discuss claims circulating about policies that could pressure dual citizens to “choose” a nationality, and what that would mean for millions of Black and Brown people, especially families with older relatives and inconsistent historical records. Dr. Dabenga argues this moment fits a broader pattern of escalating enforcement—moving from border messaging to interior targeting—raising concerns about ICE encounters, documentation demands, and “lawless” enforcement behavior. Candace and Dr. Dabenga also break down practical protection steps: don’t go anywhere with unidentified agents, ask bystanders to record everything, understand what kinds of warrants are required, and build a family plan for emergencies. They also broaden the con...
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All right. Hello everyone. Welcome to the Not All Hood Weekly drop. Let me tell you, there is a lot going on this week because of the fact that Donald Trump is at it again. He wants field offices to increase their numbers by 2 to 300 people going into 2026. In terms of those people that naturalization cases per month. Now, this is a big number. If you look back at the numbers before, what he is essentially saying is that those people who are naturalized and there's a certain group he plans to strip them of their naturalization. There is actually an act that has been put on the table. Of course it has to go through the steps and be passed by Congress. But what it is really asking is that people say yay or nay, they want to be an American or they want to be naturalized in some other country. You have to make a choice if you have dual citizenship. So I am joined tonight by a wonderful guest, Dr. Obakongo Dabinga. You have to forgive me. He's a professor of political science at American University. He's also author of Lies About Black People, how to Combat Racist Stereotypes and why It Matters. And we're going to break down information about what is going on on the national landscape. It is so good to see you.
- [01:38]
A
It's great to see you as well. How are you?
- [01:40]
B
I am doing very well. I don't even know if you heard your introduction, sir.
- [01:46]
A
I missed all of it, but I'm pretty familiar with it.
- [01:49]
B
So listen, you know who you are, Dr. Debinga. So that's the good thing. From American University Upstanders International. And for folks who don't know you, you've written several books, but the one that I mentioned at the top of the show was Lies about Black People. And as you know, we are jumping into this whole dual citizenship thing and the fact that we're talking about millions of people and when it comes to brown and black people, I really wanted to make sure that we got into that because listen, Dr. Debingo, when we talk about maybe ICE coming to see you or me, right, because it could be anybody or our parents, right? If they happen to be living, it's hard to prove that you're a citizen, especially if, if Your father is 90 and from Mississippi. That's not how they were keeping records back in the day. So I think there's a lot to be discussed here. What are your thoughts, first and foremost, about this idea of just revoking dual citizenship?
- [02:47]
A
Well, I mean, when we're talking about revoking, you know, naturalized citizenship, it's in any type of citizenship, it has me thinking about something. Have you ever been to Madagascar?
- [02:58]
B
I have not.
- [02:59]
A
I have not been to Madagascar either. But if you, back in the day, around, let's say, 1939 or so, people used to have a shirt with a bunch of people on a ship being shipped off to Madagascar. And these people were Nazis. And I'm bringing that up was because one of Hitler's solutions to get rid of Jewish people was to ship them to Madagascar. It was called the Madagascar plan. Why am I bringing this up? Because Hitler had people talk about the gas chambers and all of that. They forget that it was Hitler's final solution. He had other solutions before that that he tried that were not effective. This is the period that will end right now in the United States. Trump was talking about deporting so many people. Biggest mass deportation ever. But he closed down the border so enough people can't get in. So that means he has to go into the interior. So now he has to get rid of people who aren't documented not getting enough numbers for him and Steve Miller. So what do they start doing next? Targeting students, targeting people with visas, trying to get them out as well. That's not working enough. Now you got to start targeting people who are naturalized citizens with dual citizenships. When you figure out you apply to certain applications now for things, they're actually asking you if you're citizens of any other country. That's never happened before. And so what I make of it is that people have to realize that Trump is coming for all of us. Black or brown. You talk about like 90 year old father or grandparent and documentation, it doesn't, it doesn't even matter once they accuse you of something because on their list they have about like 10 or 12 criteria of what you can be stripped of your citizenship status for. All they gotta do is make something up and before you know it, you're back in Jamaica, you're back in Brazil, you're back in Congo, and you were a citizen the entire time. We have to be mindful that this is an extension of Trump's path towards a final solution.
- [04:53]
B
You know, so when we look about at the history of the United States, we talk about Citizenship, you know, and I know that citizenship before the Civil War was really, really belonged to the states. And then it moved up, we go to the Dred Scott decision, okay, he's not a citizen. And then we went to war over many, many things. But when we think about today and what the 14th Amendment did, which was recognize one's right to citizenship. Right. I'm wondering how difficult it might be in terms of the legal system to and the 14th amendment that is on the books that has guaranteed that. Because it seems like there's a lot of tricky language and tricky steps that have to happen in order for something this extreme. Listen, the President's wife, she's gonna have to choose. You know what I mean? It seems far fetched, but this is what we have seen in terms of Trump. And what far fetched often becomes reality. But the legal process, do you think it will be a simple one?
- [05:55]
A
Well, I'm glad you brought that up because that's another step in his solutions process is getting rid of birthright citizenship. I mean, we have to be mindful of before the 14th amendment, people were citizens of various states. I mean, birthright citizenship really brought in this idea of American citizenship. And so we just don't know what the Supreme Court is going to do. But again, don't let something this little thing called the law stop you. Trump is going to try everything possible. And, and if there's a ruling and if there's an appeal of some sort, he's going to continue his policies just like he's doing with the ICE raids. And so what I'm saying, Candace, is that this is a man who has proven that he is entirely lawless. And I believe that he is not going to be successful at the end of the day. But how many bodies, how many people, how many folks are going to lose out in this process? How many people have already been disappeared? How many people are already sitting home with actual cases, have never committed crimes? I mean, look, Candace, what did they do? Like two weeks ago, they were removing people from their naturalization ceremonies. People who've gone through the whole process for years and were literally cause, you know, you can't complete the process unless you attend the ceremony. And they were literally telling black and brown people, step out of line. So this is a guy who will try anything for him and Stephen Miller to get as many black and brown people out of this country as possible. And so regardless of the rulings, they're going to push forward further. Along with Kristi Noem.
- [07:22]
B
Yeah. You know, when I was covering The Sean Combs case right next to that courthouse was. And inside the courthouse, actually, we'd go in and there'd be a lot of people, loads getting their citizenship, and they come out happy with their flags. I mean, to imagine that somebody would be able to pull them out of the line, like you said, after a long process, that is crazy. But now, here's what I want to know from you. What does one do in order to protect themselves? I read this account of this couple who. ICE came to them, wouldn't identify themselves. And you might have heard this, too. Or folks, if you're listening to this, you might have heard this. ICE came to this couple's house and they said, wait a minute, you're trying to take us. This is a kidnapping. So they kidnapped the ICE agents who would not identify themselves. So, of course, now this couple is in trouble. But they're saying, look, if you don't identify yourselves and you come to my home and you take me, I see that as a kidnapping, so I'm going to defend myself. But that certainly is an extreme case. But it does bring about the question, what do you do when this potentially can happen to you?
- [08:27]
A
Well, look, I've told my kids, I told family members, you are not to go with anybody anywhere who does not identify themselves. Because the fact of the matter is, as you know better than anyone, Candace, we have already seen copycat folks out there. We have seen people who have been kidnapped, who have been taken, folks who have dressed up. You can get some of these suits and clothing on, like Amazon and other places, and people have been kidnapped, they've been assaulted and the like. And if you're gonna go down, it might as well happen right in that spot. And so this is why these judges have been talking to, like in Chicago, saying that these guys have to wear clearly marked identification of some way, of some sort, because people will do something barbaric to you. There are people who, who have been picked up by ICE who have been disappeared. And so I think that we have to be mindful of that. Look, if people decide that they're going to go, you gotta make sure that you don't resist. You don't want to give them any opportunity to do anything to you on camera. You gotta ask people to record, to make sure they can document it in any way, shape or form. If I'm getting taken, I'm asking anybody to record everything they could possibly record, record a direction I'm going in. So hopefully a mayor or a city councilor can pull up the cameras to show where I'm going. I mean, there have been people who've been taken and have had cardiac arrest or various things in these ice vans and have never been seen or heard from again. They're bringing people who are having injuries to these hospitals and checking them in under different names so that their families can't find them. And so you have to look. I think people might wanna also look into wearing things like air tags and other types of devices where their family members contract them, because they're obviously going to take your phone. It's amazing that we're actually having this conversation right now, Candace. But some of the convers we have raising kids about what to hap. What we need to do if they get lost, or, you know, to make sure we can be able to find them, or even some people with their pets. It's like, we gotta do this with each other right now. And it's really terrible.
- [10:20]
B
Yeah. Do you have dual citizenship?
- [10:22]
A
No, No. I was born here. I was born in the United States, and my parents. My mom became a citizen right before she passed. She actually voted for Kamala Harris in her first US Election, which was amazing. But, yeah, I've been born here and don't have citizenship elsewhere.
- [10:40]
B
And I think that your perspective is really interesting. Both of your parents are from the Congo, correct?
- [10:45]
A
That's right.
- [10:46]
B
And I'm wondering with your lens, how do you see this whole process having that perspective of parents who came here, settled in. You were in Massachusetts, right?
- [10:56]
A
Yeah.
- [10:57]
B
And I'm sure that you have an interesting perspective about immigration and what it means to come here, be accepted and do as your mother did, get her citizenship, and then finally be able to vote.
- [11:08]
A
Absolutely. It's been so problematic because when I look at everything my parents gave to this country, my father wrote the paper in the 1970s, the document that helped revolutionize Harvard Divinity School, where he was a student at the time, which led to the hiring of the first black dean of the Harvard Divinity School. Both My parents have nine academic degrees, three PhDs, and they did so much to contribute to the growth of this country, both for professors as well. And so when I think about the immigrant story, that's the story that I think about. Growing up, two of my best friends, one was Jamaican, one was Haitian. And I think about what they're doing right now. And so to see that, the incredible things they're doing. So to see that the way that these people are being demeaned. When I see these stories on news, I think of my own family members, I think of my own relatives. And I think of how this whole country is being destroyed by denying them the opportunities that they rightfully deserve. And this is a man who's talking about, I mean, Candace, he doesn't even know the difference between political asylum and an insane asylum. He's talking about they're coming here from insane asylum. Do you know anybody who's coming here from. And we don't use that term anymore, but he said the term insane asylum. Are they really going through the process of getting a passport, getting a ticket, flying across the globe from places like the Congo and landing in the United States? This is a man who doesn't even care about the basic idea of people coming from other countries who are black and brown and all. While this is happening, Candace, I'm writing about this in my next book, Trigger Words. There are thousands of undocumented white immigrants in this country being penalized for absolutely nothing. They are walking scot free and just living the life. And so when people understand that this is fully about racism, then there are different conversations that we need to have. But yeah, it's just really frustrating. And given that this is my story, I'm not here from what my parents did. And this man is destroying the opportunity of so many people who work hard.
- [13:03]
B
As a political science professor. And we look at all this contextually, the history. What is it that folks can do in terms of the law? What are your expectations of somebody in Congress saying something to stop this? What can be done to actually stop this?
- [13:20]
A
Well, one of the things I appreciate that Zoram Ambani is doing in New York City is that, you know, he's put out promotions letting people know exactly what the types of warrants are that ICE folks need to be in border control as well, who are even acting worse than ICE on some levels. Imagine that. Letting people know. You're right. Letting people know some of these guys are showing up with the wrong warrants. Right. Letting people know that people don't have the right to enter your personal vicinity. We have to do as much to learn about the law process as possible. When the ice, when ice came to the National Guard and ice started coming to Washington, D.C. the parents of the schools that my kids go to, we were having our chats, making sure we were sharing information. There were lawyers who were putting out information about what our kids need to do if they get exposed. Now is the time for us to know our rights as much as possible. There are a lot of people in the legal world, as you know, who are volunteering and doing workshops in different spaces. This information has to be provided in multiple languages as well. Because ICE and customs, Border Patrol and Trump and all of them, they take advantage of our ignorance and they take advantage of our inability to maybe communicate effectively in English. They take advantage of those two things. And so those of us who are in the know, we have to do our best to repost stuff, retweet stuff, put stuff on the streets to let people know. Everybody has to do something. As Karen Hunter likes to say, if everybody does a little, no one has to do a lot.
- [14:43]
B
There you go. There you go. What was your conversation like with your children? And first, do your children have, shall I say, names that are from the Congo?
- [14:53]
A
Yes, all of them are. Yes. And I have a 19 year old daughter. I have a 17 year old. My 19 is a senior. I mean, my 19 is a sophomore in college. My 17 year old's a senior in high school. And then I have an 11 year old son in fifth grade. And so, you know, my oldest, you know, she's out and about, you know, here in D.C. traveling. I let them know you gotta carry your passport card, pass for one, you know, and she's studying, you know, law as well, so she's, you know, learning it. Right. So I'm saying you got to carry your passport card, not the actual physical passport, because, you know, you can't carry both of those because you know they'll take them both and they just throw them away, and then all of a sudden you got nothing. I told them as well, don't go. If anybody who does not clearly identify themselves, if you can't see badges or anything like that, you may just have to have a beef in the streets because these people could be trying to kidnap you. They may not be ICE agents, but shoot, they can be ICE agents with other plans to do things before they get to the jail. You gotta be mindful. Candace, how many of these ICE agents have not gone through the full process of being approved? Some of these guys are criminals themselves. Some of these guys can't pass drug tests. Some of these guys have offenses that, you know, ICE didn't care. They just wanted to similar to what George Bush was doing after 9, 11. They just wanted to fill their numbers to get as many of these agents out on the street as possible. So you don't know who these guys are. And then, you know, and I say, you know, if these guys do have proper documentation and so on and so forth, ask people to record, don't resist. And you're gonna have to, you know, and go along with them. But I also talk to them about the importance of wearing some type of other way of being tracked, you know, outside of their phones, which will be taken from them. This is where we are right now. And my senior in high school, you know, she's, you know, out in the streets doing her fun with, playing with her friends and stuff, but tends to go to Maryland more than D.C. because there's not as much action going on in places in Maryland as There is in D.C. right now.
- [16:42]
B
Yeah. Dr. Debinga, people are scared because of the names they have. They're scared because they have accents. They're scared about anything that lets people know that they are anything other than an American citizen. And when you are a person that is brown or black, this certainly makes you a target more than anybody else.
- [16:59]
A
And Candace, on top of that, it doesn't even matter if you're a citizen. You've seen the videos. They're walking up to people saying, where were you born?
- [17:07]
B
That's right.
- [17:08]
A
And some people, like, I was born here. I don't believe you. Right. And so just show the papers, take them away. And I started this talk talking a little bit about the whole final solution stuff and just solutions in general. But I'll just say this to people, even if people think I'm exaggerating, I'll just put it this way. Any country where you have to walk around, where any group has to walk around carrying papers, it never ends well.
- [17:32]
B
Historically, we have. BFred8714. Thank you for joining us. He said yes. And Richard Blackman, we have to stay in the know, and that is a big part of it. Again, I'm not sure how much it will work for ice, but I know we often see these police videos, too, where people, they know their rights and so they can kind of every once in a while, fend off the police. But these ICE agents, they're a different story. I mean, even if you know your rights and articulate them, it's not going to stop you from getting, you know, taken down to the precinct or. But first and foremost, you should know because you will eventually need them because they're not going to, you know, play nice with you. They're going to take you down there and you have to figure it down the precinct. There are people who have been veterans who have served this country. It just doesn't matter. Everybody needs to be on high alert that this could happen to you because these quotas, again, this is a law that would have to be passed. But we know ICE agents are out there already. People should be concerned. And it's easy not to think about it if it's not in your algorithm. And it's easy not to think about it if it's not something that you're, you know, you're thinking about on any given day. You think you're safe. Because we're used to being and feeling like we're safe. I'll put that in air quotes. But really we're not. That's right.
- [18:46]
A
That's right. They're coming for you. People have to have the. I mean, Stephen Miller, I mean, this is a guy who's the son of child of Russian Jewish immigrants.
- [18:54]
B
Can.
- [18:55]
A
He's putting in, who's experienced anti Semitism and all of this stuff in Russia. And he's dealing the same thing that his parents experience right here in this country. These guys are completely lawless. And the more we know our rights, the more we can document things, the more we can record, the more we can fight back. This is just where we are in this society. And it's unfortunate, but I always say our ancestors have been through worse and if they can persevere through what they had to deal with, we can get through this. But we have to stick together. We, we can't have this. Oh, oh, y' all Latinos, y' all voted for Trump. Oh, y' all getting what you deserve. Oh, Somalis, yeah. F A, F O. Like it does not matter. We all Somalian, as far as they're concerned. We're all Haitian as far as they're concerned. We all dark skinned Mexican, as far as they're concerned. It doesn't matter. So. But Trump thrives off of division, even as a, as a CEO. You know, he says, he said in his book, when I have meetings, I like to pit people against each other at the boardroom and see who's the strongest and see who wins. Like, so when I knew he did that for his companies, I knew that's what he's gonna do for his, for this country. He thrives and divide and conquer. So the more we can work to come together, the more we can fight back against this and win.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah. Because when people are busy fighting, they're not looking at what he's really doing, Right. And the courts and appointing judges and, you know, passing executive orders or signing them into law. I'm wondering, when your parents came from the Congo, what were their expectations of coming to America? Can you take us to that experience? And did their stories play out to their expectations, what they thought it would be or did they, growing up, have humps that. That folks may not know about because they didn't live through that time?
- [20:31]
A
Yeah, it's very interesting. You know, so when they came here, you know, in the early 70s, a lot of Congolese were. And we got our independence in Congo in 1960. A lot of Congolese were going to Belgium. You know, the language, French and everything like that. But they had such a negative experience with Belgian colonialism that they didn't want to have anything to do with that. So they were already educators. They were already teachers, and they came here. They first went to Ohio, where my dad was at Worcester College of Worcester. And it's interesting because they basically left their fight for freedom in the Congo and jumped right into the end of the civil rights movement, beginning of the black power movement in the United States. And so it was a very interesting transition, especially coming from a country where they were experiencing discrimination. They had to wait out, just like African Americans in Belgium, they had to wait outside before all the white people left the markets, before they could go in, all of those types of things. And then on top of that, they leave a country where they're in a majority to come to the United States. But they were raised as activists, and so they jumped right into the struggle. They jumped right into the movement. And I would say that they were really able to attain all of the things that they hoped to attain. Obviously, they dealt with a lot of racism, police brutality. My own mother was beaten and assaulted by police in this country, my dad as well. So they experience a lot of that raising us, finally ending up in Boston, dealing with all that racism of the 70s and the 80s. And I can tell you about some wars and some battles. I mean, protecting their kids during the crack epidemic. But one of the things. And then, of course, just the bullying of being Africans in the school system. And my older siblings got it, were the white students. But then when we moved to the hood, my other. My younger siblings and I, you know, we got it from the black students in terms of just the hate, the getting beat up in school, calling names, African Bush boogie, African booty scratcher. That was one of the reasons why I started turning to poetry. I don't know if I'll get to read some poetry today, but, you know, let me know. That's. We all turn to the arts as ways to escape, you know, the traumas that we were dealing with in our community. But one thing my dad would always say, like, a few years, you know, before he passed, he would always say, like, you know, if I die today, I'm going to be happy because, you know, I'm seeing all of the kid things that my kids are doing and that they're able to achieve, and it was absolutely, you know, worth it. And so, yeah, they, they. They went through a lot, and I'm grateful to them for it, but I feel like so many of their dreams are realized. You know, like I said, three PhDs. My dad got a PhD from Harvard. My mom got her PhD from Harvard in ethics. Dad went to the Sorbonne, you know, did his thing as well. So, yeah, they started schools. They've done a lot of. And Boston, if anyone's in Boston on the 28th, you know, we're gonna have a show at Hibernian hall with my sister's dance company, Origination Culture Arts Center. I'll be up there. I'll be performing. If anyone follows me online, you'll see those flyers and stuff going on as well.
- [23:20]
B
Oh, wow, that's great. I'll also point out that. Didn't you go to Harvard, too, sir?
- [23:24]
A
I studied at Harvard. I did my master's at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. And so while you up there, you cross register. So while I was up there, I was taking class at Harvard, at mit, in various places. Spoke at Harvard probably like three or four times, you know, doing my work. But, yeah, that was my experience over there.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah. Yeah. All in the family there at Harvard. I think it's so interesting, the perspective that you bring. And also, can. Can you let us know whether or not this is true? People always say, but the immigrants take our jobs, and they're taking jobs that belong to Americans. Can you debunk that?
- [24:02]
A
Well, if people actually want to look objectively, if all of these guys are being deported or scared to come out or whatever, why is unemployment rising in this country? Because if they're gone and they're not taking jobs, isn't the assumption that those of us who are, quote, unquote, real Americans would be taking those jobs? But I don't see that happening. I don't see white folks going to work on these farms. I don't see black folks going to work on some of these other places. I'm not seeing increased home construction by some of these places where people have been undocumented immigrants have been building. I haven't seen that. Because it's interesting, Candace. It's like the Trump administration. They always like to start at the bottom, but they're not arresting the people who hire these folks. They're not arresting the People who are hiring these guys to build their houses or hiring these undocumented human beings to work on their farms, those are company heads, those are corporate people who are doing that. So this idea that, you know, isn't it interesting, they talk about these illegal aliens, they come here and they end this. J.D. vance. You know, they shackle up 20, 30 people in a house and all of this other type of stuff, and then at the same time, they blame them for the housing prices going up. But I thought if they're all shackled up in the house, that means they can't afford to buy houses, right? So it's like they blame, you know, they came here, they're too lazy, but all of a sudden they. They're hard workers and we got to get rid of them. They change up the story every single day. Everything they can do to fix that narrative, you'll see that happening. The type of jobs that many of these undocumented immigrants are doing right now are going vacant right now. And that's part of the reason why the economy is in shambles right now, because that's leading to these. These comp. That's leading to prices going up. It's leading to companies, you know, shuttering down, which also is going to mean that there's less competition, which makes it easier for other companies that are still remaining to raise their prices. So anybody who says that they're taking these jobs is absolutely false. And. But on top of that, they're not taking the jobs, but while they are here, they're actually paying into a tax system that they don't have the opportunity to benefit from because of their status.
- [26:04]
B
And Dr. Debinga, when we talk about, you know, dual citizenship and the meaning of it, I mean, it makes things a lot easier for people who have it if people don't understand. All right, well, so you have to choose one or the other, right? Because there are all these rules that are in place that once this law is potentially passed, you have to make a choice, and you have a year to do that. And then if you don't make a choice, then they're just going to assume that you want citizenship any other country. So it's like due process thrown out the window. But when we think about what dual citizenship means and why it's so important to the tens of millions of people that have it here in America. Why is it so important for people to have that dual citizenship?
- [26:48]
A
Well, I think it's important people want to have a connection to home. Now, there are some countries you can get Dual citizenship to. And you're not a citizen originally of that country. Places like Ghana and other countries have been exploring things like that. So I know several. I mean, people like Stevie Wonder, right. Who are in the countries that they are not directly from, but people feel like they need to have a connection to something outside of this country because they feel like this country has either betrayed them or will betray them. And betrayal could have many iterations. Like, betrayal could mean what's happening right now with ICE and customs and border Patrol, but betrayal could also mean this country is not fully giving me access to the American dream. It's not fully giving me access to be able to be my best self. And so when I go and visit places in Ghana or Kenya or Grenada, you know, various places, some they feel more at home. They feel like there are more opportunities there, and they feel like those countries are going to help them be able to live off their. To their full potential. And so I think it's a great idea. I think it's extremely important. I will say, however, that those who are doing it because they want to escape what's happening in the United States, you got to be mindful of the fact that Trump can get you this universe, this administration can get you anywhere. Some people say I'm staying here because I'm least likely to be bombed here, because there's other folks. But the way he talks about some of these other countries, look what's happened. What if he had dual citizen specific and you decided to go to Venezuela? So people have to be kind of mindful about doing problems. I believe that the idea is a great idea. I believe that the opportunity to be able to say what's happening here is not really working for me or the future of my children. And I want to establish myself in another place. Some people do that as expats, but some people decide that, no, if I'm going to go somewhere, I need to fully be there and be president, so I'm going to become a citizen. And I think that's great.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. There is this show on Max called Coming to Africa. Right. As opposed to Coming to America. And it's. Yeah, it's a series. And four families, they go. And four black families that go back to Africa. They go to Tanzania, they go to South Africa, they go to Ghana and they document their experiences. And, you know, I think it's so interesting because it's not quite what they thought it would be.
- [29:17]
A
The preparation.
- [29:18]
B
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and for someone who I know who has traveled to Africa because I Hear a lot of folks saying, I'm going back home. What do you say to them? Because, again, Max, they were. I mean, they were rah rah before they got on that plane, Dr. Debinga. But then when they got there, maybe about six weeks in, it was a little different. It was a little different.
- [29:41]
A
Yeah. So I've been to almost 30 countries globally, about maybe 12 to 14 of them somewhere around there on the African continent. And I've written some poems about this. One of my poems is called for your African mind. Another poem's called the African, the American. That speaks to that kind of dual thing that people are dealing with. And one of the things that I say to people is that you can't have a romanticized view of the continent. We're talking about 54 nations. You had Madagascar. We're talking about 55 countries. And the. Like, every place is different with different legacies. You gotta do your research. You know, you can't just think that it's gonna be like something you saw on TV and some romanticized show. And look, you could have a terrible experience in Kenya and have a great experience in Ghana. Right? I mean, so you can't go to, like, South Africa and say, like, oh, my gosh, I'm never coming back to the continent. It's a continent. It is not a country. So people have to do their research. People, I would suggest before, like, moving to a country, go and visit, build some connections, get some networks going, and expect there to be trials and tribulations as well. Some people are gonna welcome you at Open Arms. Some people are not gonna welcome you. I mean, you gotta understand, I got so much written about this. Look, that's why I got the book here. Lies about black people, right? Y' all gotta cop that. Um, yes. You know, there we go. I wrote this book. People have to understand that just as we in the United States were taught negative things about African countries, Africans were taught negative things about African Americans. Sure. When I first. First African country I visited was Senegal. I walked into a house, and the first thing I see on television is big is Biggie Small's hypnotized video. And I'm like, and then I was a Georgetown student at the time, and so to study abroad, they were watching the basketball game at night, and people are like, you know, yo, everybody at Georgetown is black. I'm like, no, that's the basketball team. They're like, no, that's everybody. I'm like, no, trust me. I was there yesterday. I'm like, the other black dude so it's just like, you know, so. But, you know, but you gotta understand, Candace, it's intentional. Now, I don't have actual documentation of this, but this is what I was told when I went and visited the. The slave castles at Goree Island. One of the things I was told that when the movie. Remember Roots.
- [32:02]
B
Sure.
- [32:02]
A
When Roots were shown in some of these countries, like in Senegal, like several white people got killed that night.
- [32:09]
B
Wow.
- [32:09]
A
And one of the reasons was so many Africans who were in, I believe it was Senegal did not know the history. They did not know the story of what happened to people who made that voyage. And it angered them, what they saw. I don't have full documentation of that. Someone told me that. But what I do know is that if you go visit the castles in Ghana, you may walk in like, let's say there's 30 of y', all and let's say it's 20 white. Let's say it's like 10 white people and like 20 black people. As you go through the tour, one thing you're gonna notice, cuz I did this, you're gonna notice that at some point, everybody around you is black because you separate the black people from the white people. Cause they've had real instances of black people turning on the white people in the castles because you can still smell the blood and all of that. So my point is that this Western media has a vested interest in having African Americans not respect Africans and have Africans not respect and know the story of African Americans, all while they're pimping both parts of the world. And so that's part of the problem, that African Americans, they have to do better research and understanding before they just hop on a plane and think. Everybody's gonna be like, you know, John Bobwana, it don't work like that. Trust me.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah, okay, so you are taking me back because I remember Roots and growing up. And on the east coast there was a snowstorm, right. So, you know, we only have five. I don't even know if Fox was out by then. We might had, you know, the abc, cbs, NBC. Fox came along at some point. And I remember when it came on, there was a storm, so everybody was in the house and we all watched it. So people were going back to work. And I can remember my parents coming back because everybody watched it because they were snowed in. And there were some very interesting conversations. People really, I mean, it was really, really eye opening at that time. Like you said, if you're at the castle and you know, or if people are just Being informed. It is a brutal awakening about what America has done to blacks in this country.
- [34:09]
A
That's right. That's right. It's real. And these countries, many of them did not. And still some do not teach that history. I mean, we're only like 30 plus years removed from apartheid. And, you know, you got black. You know, you got South African students of all backgrounds who don't even know that history. And so if they're not being taught these things, all that they're doing is consuming African American culture through the Internet, through television, through media. If I share a quote, can I. Can I curse on this thing?
- [34:41]
B
You sure can. In fact, we're going to talk about the changing world of media later. And guess what? The floor is open, sir.
- [34:47]
A
All right. So. So. So my. My wife. She was my girlfriend at the time. My wife now, we both did our study abroad in. In. In Senegal. She's living with a host family. And he took us out to a nightclub one that one night, and on the way home, Candace, he says to me, yo, can you hook me up with some black bitches in America? Wow. And. And then I'm like. And he said right in front of her, and I'm like, yo, where did you. Where did that come from? And he's like, well, I learned English through hip hop, and then I'm on the basketball court and I have a little Afro. Folks don't really know I'm not from there until I start speaking. And then once they hear my accent, what's up, my nigga? Like again, learn English through the music. It's what KRS1 said. That mic you speak through goes from here to Mogadishu. And how you represent us is the issue. And so that's one of the challenges that we have, is that many people have these stereotypes about African Americans, just like we got stereotypes about people on the African continent. I will say again. And we have to do real work through platforms like this to really start to understand and engage each other. That was what Malcolm was doing before he was assassinated. People don't want to tell you about Dr. King's trips to the continent. He was always talking, you know, going to Ghana, seeing black people get their freedom, and how that would motivate him coming here. They don't want to talk to you about that. You know, he was telling, you know, Andy Young, you know, you got to. We got to take this global. We got to get on the continent and, like all of this stuff, because they understood it as well.
- [36:16]
B
Listen, you mentioned some poetry. You had Is if you have a piece of poetry that's one minute or less. We are down here at not all hood. What do you have for us?
- [36:24]
A
I don't, I don't got anything that's one minute or less. Oh, here's one. Congo in our playstations, Congo in our cell phones, Congo in our telephones, Congo in our automobiles, Congo everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Because the Congo is not in our mind. That poem was from my book, from the limbs of my poetry. And it deals with how Congo's resources, the tin, the tantalum, the tungsten and colton are in our electronics products. But we don't know anything about that genocide that's taking place because of what's in our electronics products.
- [37:03]
B
Yeah, yeah. In fact, I know that in your book you give tips and one of them is to kind of diversify your media, make sure that happens so that you're just not caught up in somebody else's algorithm. Because as we know, that's what the media companies do. They control the algorithm. So you're not focused on the federal courts or what's going on in the naturalization process. You're on, you know, happy cats that are being born and they keep that, you know, we've all been there. It's like, oh, why do I keep on seeing these cats? Because I did that, right?
- [37:32]
A
That's right. Well, people don't understand. Most people go online not looking for information, but looking for affirmation. And so, you know, you have to do the intentional work to start to diversify your sources. That's what I tell my students. If you don't diversify your sources, you're going to fail my class straight up.
- [37:46]
B
Uh oh, look, there's the warning. If you are registering for his class next semester, you got the word right here that don't mess around because he will fail you. And then see you in the spring in the fall of 2026. Dr. Dominga, it was great to see you. Great to have you on. Always fun speaking with you. We've done other shows together and you always bring the knowledge and we're definitely going to have to have you back on again. Good luck on your book. What's the next book called?
- [38:13]
A
The next book is called Trigger words. I'm looking at how so called leaders use terms like woke and DEI and critical race theory to trigger people into not supporting causes they actually should be supporting.
- [38:24]
B
All right, people over here, they say, you know, powerful, that's too much. Like, right, the folks are really loving you and so do we. Here at Not All Hood. Good to see you, and thank you for being with us tonight.
- [38:33]
A
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
- [38:35]
B
Absolutely. Have a great holiday. Oh, wait, before you go, wait, before we go, I want to ask you real quick, real quick, stuffing or dressing? What do you call it?
- [38:46]
A
Ooh, stuffing. Stuffing. Stuffing.
- [38:50]
B
You call it stuffing? Okay. Is there a reason for that? You didn't have anybody, you know, say, hey, is dressing. No one corrected you along the way?
- [38:56]
A
Well, I've just always thought of dressing as salad dressing, so I just. It just never made sense to me.
- [39:01]
B
And, And. And are your holidays. Is there something different on your plate? Especially with your history and coming from the Congo? What is. What does your holiday dinner look like?
- [39:10]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, in my family, you know, holiday wise, we've always celebrated, you know, things like. Like Kwanzaa. So, you know, various types of food from home. People call it fufu, we call it ugali. You know, various types of things like that from home. This is going to be the first one this year you know, without, you know, both my parents. So it's going to be. That's going to be very deep. But, yeah, you know, food from home is always preferred.
- [39:30]
B
All right, well, listen, condolences your mom. You know, I know that that's a very difficult process. Enjoy your holiday as much as you can with your family, and we'll see you next time.
- [39:39]
A
Yes. And please go to YouTube.com omicongo subscribe there as well.
- [39:43]
B
Yes, yes, indeed. He's good to watch. He's got some good stuff going on there, of course. All right, doctor. Yeah, let's give it up for Dr. Debinga. You know, before he got off, we were talking about algorithms. We were talking about the way that the world wants to often pit Africans against African Americans. And sometimes we do it to ourselves, y'.
- [40:08]
A
All.
- [40:08]
B
I mean, we do. We will say, I'm African and I'm African American. And I have heard people have these major discussions about, oh, I know where I come from. And that makes me different. Sometimes that almost makes me better. Trust me. I'm sure that anybody out there who is listening and has an African friend has had that kind of underlying, shall I say, tension and kind of, you know, I know where I came from and you came here. So I think it's amazing to have his perspective, especially when it comes to how we are viewed around the world and how Africans see us. We have a lot of pop culture that goes into their TVs or into their phones. This is really where it's at. And that's what we're going to end tonight. Talking about. We are talking about everything is streaming. Everything is streaming. And traditional media, legacy media, is really out of touch. We're going to touch upon a couple of stories before I let you go, because this is a really powerful time to be involved in the media. This is by design that we are here. We know that people are living on their phones. They're driving, they're. They're walking, they're talking, they're in school, they're trying to take a peek during meetings to stream and look on what's their phones. So the first thing I want to talk about is this whole idea that the Oscars are going to be on YouTube for free. And let me tell you why this is so important. One, because the viewership when it comes to young people is going down. And if you want anything to survive, you have to start with young people, because they're just going to live longer than I am, right? If they're 23, they're going to live longer than my age, let's put it that way. But that being said, you start with the young people. And these are the people that are being lost when it comes to this mainstay of culture called the Oscars. And they're going to be on there for free. This is actually going to be exclusive to them from 2029 to 2033. This is a huge change because now we are looking at something that is so new, so foreign to us. You know, what is this thing? And why all of a sudden is ABC moving it over to YouTube? Why? Because they know the numbers are there. And this is why this mic. And this is why it's such a powerful time to be in the media. And this is why everybody is trying to get on board. Listen, between 2018 and now, over 77 million people cut their cords to cable. So we also have cable stations, and these big media outlets, they are suffering. They're trying to figure out, what do we do? What do we do? What are they doing? They're going to YouTube, right? What are they doing? They're going to Netflix, which is what we're going to talk about. They're combining. They see where the magic numbers are happening. Let's talk about this Iheart deal with Netflix. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna walk you through these and tell you why all of it's so important. The Iheart deal with Netflix. Okay? Some of you might have seen these headlines, especially with Charlemagne, Tha God and the Breakfast Club. You've got more than 15 industry leading iHeart podcasts that will stream only on Netflix, including the Breakfast Club. Some of the others, my favorite. Murder Bobby Bones Presents the Bobby Cast behind the Bastards. The psychology of your 20s. All of these things are translating into. Podcasts are the new radio. Remember radio? I remember. You just have to tune the radio. Get that static out of there. We know that's no more. We know that we're in charge. We're in charge of our own dial. We can pick whatever we want. And we know that it's because of the algorithm that's pushing these things in our faces. And all of that's very important because like I was talking about with Dr. Debinga, you push one button and then it pushes, pushes, pushes, and that's just more advertising for places like this that know if you keep pushing people to your station, then of course you're going to get more advertisers. So that's why legacy media wants to make sure that they have this streaming that is in their power. The problem is that when we have fewer people, right, when we do have mergers taking place, then you have cultural voices that are diminished and often stomped because people at the top are actually making all of the decisions. I mean, let's face it, we haven't seen a bunch of, you know, African American women walking around talking about what's going to happen with Paramount and Warner. No, we have not. And that's no surprise. We are not at those particular tables. If we were, we would have definitely heard about it. Essence would have covered it. We would have been like the first Black this, the first black that. Because at 2020, 2025, it's still the first black something. But we have to keep that in mind because the cultural algorithm that we are in doesn't just design what we're watching at night, just like Dr. Debinga said, it designs what people are seeing and hearing about us in other countries. That's where it really matters. What we do in America is we want to make sure that we are the leading country that everybody looks to. And the people who are actually managing all of these social media sites, they're the ones who are planting the seeds about how you and I are supposed to be perceived in this United States of America and abroad. That leads me to the TikTok deal. Now, this is something that we were talking about during Joe Biden's administration. Remember, some people thought that the TikTok was going away. And people, they were talking about the fact that they made this amount of money and they were trying to figure out their bills if TikTok went away. The problem with that was a security issue. I mean, there were certainly other issues that came about, especially when the TikTok deal came into fruition, which was just this week, and that there are two American investors that are now part of TikTok and own it. And then, you know, there are also larger people who, who are part of it. But when we talk about these particular investors, we're talking about people like ByteDance at 20%, right? 20% of it. They wanted ByteDance out completely. Now ByteDance is 20%, but the rest, American owned. One United States was saying that there was a security concern. And then here's something else that was part of this deal that I think that was very interesting and that is that there is an attempt on paper to, to, to make sure that the algorithms aren't the way that they are now. Because if you look at the algorithms that are out there the way that they are now, they're killing us. They're making you think you're too fat, you're too ugly. You know, there, there are lawsuits with people saying that it's making you made my son commit suicide. Or, you know, my daughter died. You know, she was nine years old and she died because she was doing a water drinking contestant. Granted, it does congregate people and there have been cultural movements and movements that have been started on there, but it's also doing a lot of harm. And in terms of the algorithms that are out there, we know that our algorithm is not as smart as the one that they have in Asia. It's totally different. The algorithms over there, they're moving their young people more to art, moving them more to culture, moving them more to music and things that, and that in this deal, the algorithm is going to be retrained. Okay. And we know that that is all very, very much important. This particular deal should close by 2026. All right, I want to move on now to something else that talks about and really kind of sheds light on this changing media landscape, and that is Isaac Hayes iii. Isaac Hayes III and Fan base. Let, let's, let's talk about this Fan Base app, because here is somebody who said, you know what, I've been looking at all this and I've been looking at the people who aren't sitting at the top. Why don't I create my own app? Yeah, why don't I go ahead and do that? And you know, when I create my own app, I'm going to let other people get in on the deal. It's got, it's backed by shareholders. It has. It allows people to share videos, photos, audios. But creators also get offered subscriptions ranging from 299 to 99.99, giving supporters access to this exclusive content. So he's making sure that people are learning the game in a different way and that they're not just consumers. You know, you can look at all the videos that he has when it comes to fanbase. But part of his argument is that whenever anything is created and gets, and gets very, very popular, it's created off of the culture, off of black folks who plant the seeds in fashion and music and art and then everybody else comes along and makes money off of it. So he has raised. I think he's at 15 million right now. Maybe someone in the comments can tell me about that. In terms of investors, he's teamed up with Roland Martin, I remember, in terms of getting his commercials out there. And people, you can. You get in at least 3, 3, $399. And you can be a part of this still startup fan base. And if you haven't gone to fan base, you should go on right now, create an account, see what it's all about. It's got everything that every other social media app that you are on has. So why not fanbase? And I know it sounds like a commercial, but listen, this is a part of the changing media landscape and if we don't open our eyes, we are going to be left behind again. This is why none of us are walking around with Ted Sarandos, okay? This is why we're not up there at Warner Brothers and going around the lot of Netflix to figure out what's going on. But Isaac Hayes is someone that is really changing that whole process. So I've mentioned Paramount, I've mentioned Warner Brothers. We know that there was an attempt at a hostile takeover. We know that the Paramount offer was rejected by Warner Brothers ultimately. And there has been this real fight, Real, real fight. Now, just to let you know, Warner Brothers owns hbo, DC Comics, right? The Superman, Batman World. They have film studios, cnn, Cartoon Network, tnt, tbs, Discovery Channel, hd, hgtv, Food Network, tlc, Animal Planet, own Netflix. I could go on. Netflix and Warner Brothers want to be in each other's lives. And if you remember the Paramount deal, Paramount made at least six offers. Okay, we just heard about it now because you know, there was a hostile takeover. But all along the way, over the past several months, there have been six offers. Two Warner Brothers. The problem was that Warner Brothers said, look, your backing looking kind of shaky. You got all these investors. Do you have the money? You have so many people in the background where we don't know if one of those pulls out, if you really actually have the money. So this hostile takeover, they went to the stakeholders, it did not happen. And Netflix was back in the game and they have agreed to move forward again. We are talking about a merger that has to do with just a couple of people in charge now, right? And now we're going to down to a merger and figuring out what goes on the air, figuring out where the money goes to, figuring out, you know, how many creators, black creators to put on, on, on the dial for anybody to see. So while it's a time to have a mic, if you're not at the top, if you're not doing an Isaac Hayes and say, I'm going to be at the top, then a lot of stuff will not happen. You know, there's so many times, I know you go on TV or go on your, I call it tv, just call me old school, but you go on this or you go on something else and you spend more time looking for something to watch than you do actually watching what you ultimately watch or you never even get there. Right. That has to do with the diversification of what we are looking for. And if it's not there, is it going to be there? In terms of this particular merger? Now, this has to go through a process with the Department of Justice and the antitrust. And 30% is the number that they're looking for. If this merger between Warner and Netflix creates a combination and takes 30% of the market share, well, then that's when the antitrust laws come into play. But you know what Netflix is saying? They're saying we actually don't own 30% of the typical streaming platforms. Right. Because even though we, we know Warner Brothers and HBO especially, right. We've been paying into that all these years. They're saying, what about YouTube? Isn't that also something that you pay for? What about TikTok? Don't you also pay for content? Can't you pay for content? What about Amazon? So they're saying your market share of, of, of these, of these particular types of stations that you're comparing to HBO, it's much bigger than that. And we don't have 30%. So that is going to be their argument. Now, before I finish and give you some takeaways from all of this changing mediascape, and honestly, this has all just Happened in the last two weeks. Last two, three weeks. So imagine what is to come. Imagine what is to come. I have to talk about Roland Martin. Now. Some of y' all have seen me on Roland Martin, but y' all know Roland Martin. He was early, early, early. Launching podcasts to create Roland. I mean, podcasting. Creating Roland Martin unfiltered a major digital platform, black news and analysis. He was doing this back in 2018. So when Covid hit, Roland hit even harder. Roland is somebody that has been before everybody, white or black. And the takeaway there is, is that if you see something that is not going your way in terms of what you have been doing at your job, and maybe they let you go, or maybe they do something that you just don't like, or maybe you just have a better idea. You got to do a Roland Martin. Roland Martin was the first one out there. What happened when Don Lemon, when cnn, they parted ways. Where did he go? What happened to Joy Reid? Where did she go? And rightfully so, because this right here is something that equalizes everything and this diversifies voices. So what does this all mean? All the Rolands, all the Isaacs, all the paramounts, all the iHeartMedia, all of that? Well, platforms control culture. That's exactly what they do. Platforms control culture. So you don't even have to get in line. You can just get on a mic and talk. Just make sure that what you're saying is right. Right. Because we have a lot of people that are talking, and honestly, they don't know what they're talking about. And I'm not just saying content wise, I'm saying you have to know the rules. Yes, the First Amendment is powerful, but you can still get sued for defamation. All right, Cardi B. Nicki Minaj just won a case. It started out $75,000. It went down to $59,000. The judge made a decision because of a law that was out there. You have so many people that are making mistakes. So if you do get in this game, know the rules. Don't just go out there making up information because you've attributed it to somebody else. If someone sues you, it doesn't matter if you say according to the Associated Press or according to the New York Times, look at Donald Trump. Look how many people who he sued and won. Granted, a lot of it is political. Look at what he's suing PBS for right now. Defamation. Know the rules. Intentional fiction of emotional distress. Know the rules. Right. Again, this is open. But if you are going to get on it, understand exactly what it is doing. Newspapers have been cut. And I mean three to four thousand newspapers have been cut since 2005. They no longer exist. They no longer exist at all. You have to understand that in order to get into this game, you have to know exactly what you were doing and exactly where we are going. And all of these things that I've mentioned tonight show you exactly where the needle is turning. In fact, it's turn. It's turned. Netflix knows exactly what it's doing with Warren, Warner Brothers and iHeartMedia, because that's where everybody is. This is a huge deal. So I just encourage you, be, encourage you to be a part of what is out there, because we are shaping the culture. The reason why everybody talks about the same thing is because everybody's talking about the same thing. If you have something different to talk about and to add to the algorithm, then this is your time to get in there. Because the algorithm tyranny is real. It is real, real, real. And independent creators can really leverage these platforms in order to do something special, just like we are doing right here. Let me leave you on this final note. And that is, as I said, you know, there used to be thousands of newspapers. I'm a professor. I remember I bought some newspapers to class. I mean, they were like, what. What is this? Like, how do we. How do I open? I mean, they really. They don't buy newspapers. A lot of them get their news, you know, from Bill Maher or Saturday Night Live, you know, so. But I will say that if you really, really, really, really, really want to go hard and you really want to find someplace that's open for you, go local. Go local. Everybody's going national.
- [58:27]
A
Go local.
- [58:28]
B
The zoning permits that, you know, it took to get the street together in your neighborhood, nobody's writing out that. Nobody's talking about that. No one's talking about that. That's not going to be in the Breakfast Club tomorrow. It is not. But you can if you live in your town and local reporting, local, influencing, however you want to put it. Because really, again, if you're an influencer and you're talking about news, they're going to treat you like a journalist anyway. So again, learn those laws. But if you really want to go hard, go local. That is where it is open. These small towns, we want to know what's going on in our neighborhoods, right? Because really, when we think about it, where you live dictates so many other things in your life, right? It dictates your education. If you're going to public school or private school. It dictates the cost of your home. It dictates your social life, right? It dictates your religious life, right? Where you actually live. It dictates your community life, right? Are you living someplace where someone says, won't you be my neighbor? Or are they saying, I don't want you to be my neighbor? It makes a big difference. So if you want to go hard, go local, look at your town and see what you can report on. Because let me tell you, we are well into not old. Things are changing. Things have changed. Things have changed. So I'll leave you on that note tonight. And I'm glad they've changed because that gives all of us here at Not Ahood the opportunity to speak to you and to make sure that your voices are heard too. It's a fair exchange. What's the first thing that you do when you see some crazy post? You go to the comments and that exchange is good and welcome. If people are being fair and not nasty, though those nasty ones sometimes are funny. But we won't co sign that. All right? But we know when we go to the comments, we go to them for. For a very good reason. That being said, listen, if you want to suggest a guest, suggest a story idea, write us@comradesotallhood.com make sure that you tune in to us. Make sure to, like, subscribe, make sure to tell a friend, you know, we really get into a lot of things. I want to thank Dr. Dr. Obicondo Debinka. I'm gonna get your name. I really am. I will practice for the next time I see you for being on this show tonight. And I want to thank everybody for your comments and for being with us tonight. As always, it was good seeing you. And we will see you on next Sunday, December 28, post Christmas. We can talk a little bit about what you did. All right, until the next time. Good night.