← Not Dead Yet
Not Dead Yet
Chris Pratt
01:18:03
The guys talk about hard work and hustle, the choices parents make, the ups, downs, and idols of success, and real vs Ned Flanders Christianity. The dude from Avengers, Jurassic Park, and Super Mario Bros. talks about how he wants his kids to...
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- [00:01]
A
Solid day.
- [00:03]
B
Put it together. What are you doing? Dance off, bro.
- [00:07]
A
Me and you. Hi, I'm Ben Sasse.
- [00:18]
C
And I'm Chris Styerwold.
- [00:20]
A
And this is not dead yet. We're all dying, but only some of us have been brought face to face with that reality.
- [00:26]
C
However long each of us have to do it, though, we all want to
- [00:30]
A
live a good life, one with meaning, love and joy. And our guests are here to help us do exactly that.
- [00:36]
C
Whether you think of him as Andy dwi, the lovable goofball from Parks and Recreation, or Peter Quill, AKA Star Lord, the guardian of the galaxy who loves solid gold oldies, or Owen Grady, the Raptor whisperer from Jurassic park, or even Emmett Brikowski from the Lego movies. You certainly know Chris Pratt. In an entertainment business that produces few big name stars anymore, Pratt is exactly that. The films with Pratt as a leading man have already grossed more than 14 billion dol. Million with a B. With more blockbusters in the pipeline, and now his production company is cranking out hits on its own. We've got a lot to cover, so let's get right into it.
- [01:14]
A
I gotta say, Pratt, you know, a lot of the women in my life think that you're good looking, but I believe you are the ugliest Catherine I've ever seen.
- [01:24]
B
Brother, that is the truth.
- [01:25]
A
For those on audio only, Chris has dialed in from a family iPad and he is showing up on our screen as Catherine.
- [01:33]
C
That's right.
- [01:34]
B
Catherine Schwarzenegger in her office. We can see the big heart that. Behind me. That is not. I. I put that up specifically for you guys.
- [01:42]
A
Thank you very much. Well, we will. We will not repeat the introduction that we've already done of you before we called you out of the green room. But tell us where you are. Are you in Japan?
- [01:55]
B
No, I'm going to be in Japan in a couple days. I'm. I'm just. I'm in la. I'm back. I'm at home. So I'm in. Yeah, we've got a little bit of downtime, but I was in New York a couple days ago. Then I'll go to Japan because we're promoting the Super Mario movie that's to come out in April.
- [02:15]
C
The. Shockingly I was going to say, appall, I'm appalled by how successful the Super Mario movies are. Only because it's like I remember a pixelated, crummy game. By the way, my mother was the first person on our street to beat the original Super Mario Brothers. Much to my. I was. I was shocked and My friends were impressed and now it's this massive movie franchise.
- [02:42]
B
Well, your mom beat the original Super Mario Bros.
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C
He was the first one who found the warp to take you to level eight. So she's come before you. She, she, she blazed. She blazed, she blazed the trail for you.
- [02:54]
B
There's nothing more frustrating than playing Super Mario Brothers. And then it's your mom's turn and then it takes her 45 minutes to die and you don't get to. She's like hogging your Nintendo.
- [03:03]
C
Exactly. This is exactly.
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A
Pretty cool.
- [03:05]
C
This is exactly right.
- [03:06]
A
Chris, will you give us a thank you again for doing this? Will you give us a level set and run through, you know, a three, four minute version of your biography? One of the things I really enjoy about you is the connection between gratitude and work ethic. And I don't think people can really understand you unless they understand geography and work history.
- [03:29]
B
Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Well, I'll keep this as brief as possible. I was born in. Let me just take it back to 65 million years ago. Thank you. I was born in Virginia, Minnesota, which is a relatively small town in northern Minnesota. My dad was a taconite miner and my mom and dad met in high school and got married in September after they graduated and quickly had three children. They were dream chasers, which by the time I was three, we moved to Alaska where my dad went from taconite mining to work on a little gold claim with a couple of his friends in a gold mine. Then he got into construction in Anchorage and by the time I was seven, I moved again to Washington State and that's where I spent the rest of my childhood and graduated high school there. That was a town of 7,000 people when I left. Rural town, a suburb of Everett, so like 45 minutes from Seattle and you know, a lot of mill workers and loggers, blue collar folks, really strong wrestling program and football program. Kind of like what you hear about in a country song about Friday Night Lights and small town hopeful stuff. I grew up next to a Lutheran church and wasn't particularly religious growing up. You know, we'd go periodically on holidays, but we were a pretty salt of the earth, blue collar family. A lot of beer drinking, a lot of raucous behavior. And then I didn't. I did well in high school academically, just went and did a little bit of community college, but felt quickly because my, my father was diagnosed with Ms. When my sophomore year in high school and by the time I graduated high school, he was pretty incapacitated. So we lost, we Had a big financial hit and we lost our house and moved out to this like trailer out on an Indian reservation. And it was at the time I was 17, I graduated and they had this shed with a mattress in the top of it. And they were like, listen, you, you, you can stay there as long as you want. My then my brother had already left, joined the army, my sister had moved out. And so I was like, I think I'm going to take my chances and not sleep in your tool shed. So I hit the workforce and did a little community college. Became a door to door salesman. Answered an ad in the paper that said, do you like rock and roll music? Do you want to make money? And I was like, that sounds a lot better than studying German culture and mathematics at Edmonds Community College. So I. And you know, bus work, you know, waiting tables to pay for it. And so I, I left and did this door to door sales thing. But I was also really into theater. I was doing.
- [06:06]
C
Wait, what were you selling?
- [06:08]
B
I was selling these little coupons for businesses in the service industry. So we were essentially like in a little bit of a sales and advertising combo. It was this multi level marketing scheme that, you know, if you, an idiot like such as myself felt compelled to answer that ad in the paper, then maybe they could squeeze a few months worth of productivity out of them.
- [06:25]
A
And what was the rock and roll connection? None.
- [06:29]
B
I think it was just a litmus test to determine whether or not you had a big enough lack of critical thinking skills to be duped into being in this multi level marketing.
- [06:40]
C
It's the reverse of can you draw this horse on the back of the matt? That's right.
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B
Yeah, that's right.
- [06:44]
C
But. And I want you to tell us all of that. But I have noticed when I write about politicians, historical figures, door to door sales shows up again and again and again with people who are like on the road selling. What did you learn from selling on selling to people door to door?
- [07:03]
B
I'll tell you more. I think more in that I did it for a year. I think I learned more in that year on how to be an actor than people who go to theater school. I mean it was learning to face rejection. Learning that attitude is contagious. And you know, positivity sells art. We had this thing called PMA equals opm, which was positive mental attitude equals other people's money. And we had this chant we did in the morning. It was actually, it was not. It was terrible. But at the same time it either either instilled in me or potentially Revealed a resilience that I had that was like, I could. Even in high school, we'd go sell these old Viking. We were the Lake Stevens Vikings. I would sell these Viking gold cards around town, and they'd have a competition, and the kids would be like, I sold 17. I sold 22. I was like, I sold 500. You know, I would just go out and just sell. So I loved it. And so I think what it taught me was it really prepared me for the audition process, because actors oftentimes talk about the rejection that comes with acting. And there is that, but I was so used to it. Like, you know, at least with an audition, they've invited you there. Like, I would try to sneak into people's houses to sell them stuff, and
- [08:13]
A
they'd sick their dog on me.
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B
So it was. It was a. Definitely a master class in facing rejection and learning to ultimately, that regardless of the product you're selling, what you're selling is yourself, and you're selling your attitude.
- [08:26]
C
Okay, I interrupted you on your. Your. Your hero's journey.
- [08:29]
A
I'll. I'll nerd for a second. I. I think I've thought a lot about this sales point in the past, too. You said both of them in. In my shorthand, Chris. One is the positivity element of having to either actually be an optimist or at least be able to act that you're an optimist and the contagious nature of it. But the second is how useful is it to just load up not three or four or five failures, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them? Because it just toughens you up. It's scar tissue. A future character to get rejected over and over again. It's a really important thing to always have to have gone through sales at some point.
- [09:03]
B
I. I agree. Sales and. And food service, if you can go. If you can do those two things, you're.
- [09:07]
C
You're gonna.
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B
Yeah, the working in, you know, that's. It's really important. It definitely builds character. And so I did that. And. And I did well.
- [09:15]
C
I did very well.
- [09:16]
B
I was like the salesman of the. There's. It's a national company. There's branch offices in all of the major cities. And I was like the rookie salesman of the year. And one got a free trip to Jamaica. It was like one of these things. And then I opened my own office, which was sort of the dream. If you work hard, you could open your own office. By the time I was, I think, 18 or 19, I had opened an office in Denver, Colorado, and I. And I realized that I was not a good man. I wasn't management material. You know, I was a great salesman, but I was still just the. I was an intelligent kid. But even to. Even, even today, I'm still this way. I think I sometimes lacked a little bit of the critical thinking skills that were necess to make myself a good manager. And I was too much of a people pleaser to be a good manager. And so turns out I was naive because I thought everyone who answered this ad was going to have the same. Was going to be like, me, like, want to work hard and go out and do be really. And it turns out it was just the bottom of the unemployment barrel. Like, we, you know, we had people that like, would go steal stuff and just disappear. And they were not good employees. And so I lost my butt. My mom had to fly me home. They put a lien on the minivan I had bought. I was in debt. I couldn't pay my cell phone bill.
- [10:27]
A
I don't believe you right here, by the way. Like, nobody buys a minivan with a loan, but go ahead.
- [10:31]
B
Well, it was 3, $500. And I think I. I can't remember exactly what. But I know when I showed up to Hollywood some about a year or so later, I still had a lot of debt that I had to pay off before I could get credit cards. And it might have been my cell phone. It was my cell phone bill that I didn't.
- [10:47]
A
I wasn't really calling you out. I just think it's funny.
- [10:50]
B
It's true, it's true, it's true. It was, it was rough. It was. It was like a. It was a. It was a. Definitely a failure. And then I went. So I went back to my hometown and I had been kind of like the star of my hometown when I was there. I was the, you know, captain of the football team and wrestling team and I did all these assemblies for school. And like, I really. If I hadn't gone into the career field that I had and found the success, I would be one of those guys who peaked in high school. You know, like, I just was high school. Public high school was great for me. I had a really incredible experience. I got a great education and loved my teachers, loved my coaches, had a lot of friends. So when I went back to my hometown, now it'd been about a year and a half, I was that sort of townie guy that like, used to be cool and was going to parties and I just felt like super depressed, you know. And so a friend of Mine, who'd been living in Hawaii since we graduated, saw me and was like, dude, you don't look good. You seem off. And I was off. And I was partying a lot and you know, to be fully honest, I was like kind of, you know, slipping in down the wrong path. And, and so my buddy bought me a one way ticket out to Maui. And I lived out there for a while and I was waiting tables and I lived in a van down by the ocean and I waited tables on this actress that was a director and I recognized her and I kind of kicked in my door to door sales skills right there and was like, whoa, what are you doing here? You're, you're a movie star. Why are you here? And she said, you're cute. Do you act? I said, I do act. And I had done community theater and I'd done stand up comedy in Seattle and I loved performing. And that was it. She gave me an audition and then that moved me to la. I did the audition, I got the part. She said, you're good, we want to use you. I said, great. Where does it shoot here on the island? I got to get some time off of work from Bubblegum Shrimp company. And she said, actually, it shoots in la. And I thought, oh, no, that's, that's that. I got about 40 bucks, 60 bucks to my name. I'm not going to LA. She said, Sweetheart, we'll fly you there. And that was it. I felt like the tectonic plates of my life shifting beneath me. I thought, oh my God, this is it. I'm gonna make it. This is my thing. I always knew if I had the door cracked open for me, there's no way I'm not gonna barrel through it. I'm just gonna go, go, go, go. And that was it.
- [13:00]
C
So, so between being the captain of the team and the, the guy, right?
- [13:05]
B
Yeah.
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C
And the moment that you look at Radon Chong and a bubble gum shrimp and say, let's yes, I'm going to sell myself to you. What do you think is wrong with you? That makes you the kind of person who says, yes, I will move to Denver and run a multilevel marketing firm. Yes, I will buy, I will finance a minivan. Yes, I will go. Yes, I will do stand up. Yes, I will do community theater. This is a, an approach that most 19 or 20 year old men certainly now, but even then do not have. That's a, that's a super weird way of being of like, is it optimism? Is it determination? What, what is the thing in You. That makes you willing to go do things even when it's going to hurt, even when you could fall on your face.
- [13:57]
B
Wow. That's a good question. I've never.
- [14:00]
C
I don't know.
- [14:00]
B
It's a. It's like a combination of many things. Ambition, confidence, naivete, drive. And the idea that my whole. We did that my whole lives, you know, we moved to chase a gold mine. We moved to Washington. It was the way I was raised. We were total dreamers, and there was no safety net. And also we had to survive. You know, we had to be survivors at a very. Everyone in our family had to be survivors at a very young age because we didn't have a pot to piss in. And. And, you know, I remember we were so. I was. I've been money motivated my whole life because we never had anything. And I. In witnessing sort of the financial struggles. My dad gets this disease, and the bank takes our house away. And, you know, like, we didn't. I couldn't. I never asked for anything. I don't have a yearbook from. I was the king of my school, and I don't have a yearbook because it was 35, and I just wouldn't ask them for that much money.
- [14:51]
C
Has no one given you a yearbook? You have one now?
- [14:54]
B
I literally do not have a yearbook from my high school.
- [14:57]
C
Come on, America, hook this guy up with. We want to see his superlatives.
- [15:02]
B
I don't know.
- [15:03]
C
Yeah.
- [15:03]
B
And like. Like, I had a letterman's jacket because I was a great athlete, but it was because a guy came up to my mom, a. A really wonderful guy. I should say his name. I think he's passed away now. I want to credit him for this because it was so moving at the time. But I went. I was out there. I scored like, a touchdown. I had scored a couple touchdowns that night. And he's like, wow, he must have a great letterman's jacket. She's like, we don't have that kind of. We don't have letterman's jacket. And he bought me a letterman's jacket with all of my patches on it and stuff like that. I think my mom had seen me drawing what my letterman's jacket would look like if I did have a letterman's jacket. Oh, wow. And it was. Oh, God. It was Designer Portrait Studios. I'm trying to think of what his name was. I can't remember his name. Dang it. But he. He bought me this letterman's jacket, and it was. And I wore that thing every day, you know, like, so I think it was a struggle. I think struggle was it. And, and, and determination.
- [15:57]
A
I actually want you to play forward the geography because she flies you director, casting gal at a Hawaii restaurant flies you back to la but you didn't let LA become your whole identity. And I guess I've got two two thoughts on this. One is the geography of how you keep up a kind of gritty earthy life now as opposed to just be, you know, world stage glitterati. But also how do you teach your kids to be gritty and scrappy given that they're growing up without all that necessity.
- [16:31]
B
I'll tell you that's so yeah it's two, it's two part question. Both great questions. I think the first of all like I was, it's God man. First of all it's all, it's completely God. It's 100. The answer is Jesus, I promise you that. So it's the grace of God that I didn't end up, you know it was, the world is orchestrated in such a way that I was not really in a position to become as you mentioned, the glitterati. I love that. You know I, I, the first I came here I started struggling right away. I, I got $700 for the movie I did. I bought a $700 car. I lived up like I lived with, I just scrapped my way. I'd couch surf and live with people. I slept out on some people's lawn chairs for a couple of weeks. I, you know I went back home to and raise some money then come back again. I was working room service jobs, doing room service, waiting and bartending and waiting and all that stuff. And then I finally started getting some work and the first big job I got that was like a steady income and for me really good money was a TV show called Everwood and it shot in Utah. And so those formative years the first time I actually had the money to be able to go out to the clubs or to get the nice cars or buy the cool stuff, I was in Utah. So I was buying like four wheelers and you know, no one's having fun. 338 win mags and everyone's like this sucks. I'm like I'm going elk hunting you crazy. This is amazing. And so, so that was nice. And then, and then the second part of the question in terms of how to it's, it's interesting because I, I, I, I struggle with it and I'm like I said by the grace of God I'm partnered up with somebody who's got Incredible experience with raising children in the spotlight because she, her dad is on and, and her mom is Maria and so, and they didn't. And those two did an, of fostering a toughness in their children because for me, I would just rely on what my parents did, which was give my children everything I could. And when you don't have anything that results in a resilient child. But if you do have, you know, if you have enough to give them anything they want, then how do you not spoil them? And so that's been a, it's been a learning curve for me and I rely heavily on the wisdom of the experience of my wife and how she was raised. And she's, you know, she intentionally protects them. They don't know I'm in the movies. They've never seen a cart. They've never seen a cart. Full length cartoon film. My daughter is five years old. She does not know who Mario or Garfield or Lego or anything. She doesn't know what.
- [19:03]
C
I'm sorry, you've never, you have yet to show your 5 year old daughter the Lego Movie?
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B
Yeah, I've never seen a Lego Movie. I've never seen.
- [19:10]
C
Are you going to, I mean, eventually.
- [19:13]
B
I have a 13 year old and he's seen the movies and he thinks it's in, you know, and it's fine. I, I will, I imagine, but I'm, I. They don't really do screen time, you know, they don't have iPads, they don't have any of that stuff. Sometimes they'll watch like educational cartoon things. They'll watch the Berenstain Bears or they'll watch Daniel Tiger, you know, a couple times a week. But they play outside and they read and they, you know, and I don't want it to be like sanctimonious, like I'm the perfect parent at all. It's really kind of hard sometimes because I, I become the iPad. They're like, dad, tell me story. I'm like, can I just throw you on Instagram reels and go work out?
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A
But, but let's linger there though, because you're not. That doesn't sound sanctimonious to me. It sounds like you can be a real service to people. In my last life, where I spent a lot of time for policy reasons around the digital revolution, but also some around fundraising, I spent a ton of time in Silicon Valley and one of the most jarring experiences I've had around the tech centimillionaire and billionaire community is they are the most Amish about Screens with their kids of anybody in America. And they're building products that are about stealing the attention of little kids and none of them do it for their kid. They know digital crack is not the right way to develop the brain. So there's some hypocrisy there. Yours isn't because you're building different products that aren't necessarily for that age. Talk a little bit more about how you and your bride think about screens for the kids.
- [20:43]
B
Well, there is a lot of that research. It's coming out now and I imagine it's. The pendulum will swing back. I, I can't help but think that one day we're going to look at this age the way we looked at, you know, pregnant women smoking on airplanes, you know, back in the. Yeah, I can't believe we did that. I think, you know, throwing a, I think we're going to realize that this is, this is a, we're learning as they're learning. And so, you know, the, the research is coming out of these books. Even like you, your book the Vanishing American Adult that you, you discuss a little bit of this stuff, but Jonathan Haidt's stuff with the Anxious Generation, there's a lot of, of data that backs up that these are not, it's not a good choice to put your kid in front of a screen and have them have their brain developed on algorithm driven entertainment. It's just not, it is too addictive. It's like rewiring their, their brains to such a degree that they're, you know, their dopamine receptors are all messed up and like, you know, you'd have to, you know, you can, I can't really paraphrase the book and, but read the book if you haven't. And I think. Yeah, so, so it's, it's not good. It's not good for these kids to, to stick them in front of screens and it's not good for adults either. But at least our brains are mostly fully functioned or fully functional and informed. Yeah, I kind of lost train of.
- [21:53]
A
No, you were good. You were good. I distracted you on the geography of. You're still doing some farming.
- [21:58]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got, well, yes, I sort of have a glamour farm. I've got a ranch up in Washington state. I've got about, you know, 100 acres or so. And so all our meat at our house comes from that ranch. And so we've got pigs and, and sheep, we raise, you know, lamb and, and beef and we sell it to the open market, have a lot of restaurants that we, we provide food for them and, and we have a great orchard and stuff. So that's a, that's kind of my touchstone back home. And I, I'll. I'm going to be going there pretty soon, which I'm really excited about. I didn't even get to go there all year last year. I, I was working so much last year that I didn't get to get up there. But it's a really special place and I call it Stillwater Ranch. Sort of Psalm 23, you know, leads me to still water. And I love that. So there's this idea that, you know, I was actually, I didn't know what I was going to name it. I was, I was, I didn't know what to name the ranch and I was having, I was watching this sermon in my. A pastor friend of mine was giving this sermon on Psalm 23 and he talked about this idea of what that means to be led to still water. And he, you know, he says, what do you see in still water? And on the water that's still, you see your reflection. And so to be led to water that is still in the face of your enemies like to be, it says, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. And so when you're led to still water and you see a reflection of yourself and the face looking back as a person who's in want of nothing, that's a really beautiful place to be led. And that's the sort of the, you know, one of the extraordinary aspects of having a Christ centered life or following God is, is God will remind you that you don't want anything, you're good and lead you to still water. So I left it to, so I named it still water.
- [23:44]
A
Tell us a little bit about the, your theological journey. You said when you were living next to the Lutheran church, you weren't attending as a kid, and now you're quoting the Psalter. A bit ago you credited Jesus with all the freedom from brokenness.
- [23:59]
B
Yeah, well, that's it. I didn't. I grew up next to a Lutheran church and I didn't really get, I mean, I was baptized Catholic, grew up Lutheran, had no distinction between the various denominations of, of church, believed in God. But it was a little bit like living in the Pacific Northwest. You know, God was like the sun, but it was mostly always cloudy and periodically you'd be reminded that the sun was there and you're like, oh, this is incredible. And the next day it's cloudy and foggy and you're Wondering why you're pissed off. And so it was like. It kind of lived my life like that. But when I was out in Maui, before I was discovered in Maui, I had this really incredible encounter. And I had already had, like, maybe two or three pretty profound God moments in my childhood. But the big one was about. I was about 19, and I was. Look, listen. I was like, I've. I've been a, you know, a partier and a drinker and dabbled in drugs and. And not like. Like a, you know, a perfect guy. And So I was 19. I was sitting outside. We'd sent in some adult to go buy alcohol. Maybe I was 20 at this point. And this guy walked by. He's like, hey, what are you doing? And I just remember thinking it was odd that he was talking to me, but I was also sort of enamored by this person and his wife. And I was like, just completely honest. It's like, I'm gonna. I'm just waiting for someone to buy me some beer. And he's like, are you going to a party now? Yeah. He's. Will there be drugs there? I was like, I think so. I hope so. Will there be fornication? I was like, fornication? If I'm lucky, dude, I guess.
- [25:32]
A
And I can't even spell it, but I want some.
- [25:35]
B
Yeah. I don't know what. I think I know what that is. And, yes, it is. And I said, why? He was like, jesus told me to stop and talk to you. And for some reason, the boldness of that. And it seems ridiculous, but in that moment, it wasn't this man encountering me. It was God encountering me. And so I just believed him. And I said, okay. And he's like, why don't you. Why don't you come with us instead of going to that party and let me talk to you about. I said, all right, let's go. And I left with this guy and his wife. And for two days, I kind of talked to this guy. He brought me out to this church, this sort of. It was like a very, very spiritually wild Pentecostal church. And people were, like, doing all this speaking in tongues, and, like, it was just crazy. And I just loved it. I was like, this is amazing. And I encountered God there. So I went back to my little beach house and told all my friends that I found Jesus. And they're like, you got to be kidding me. You of all people, you found God? I was like, yeah, I'm not doing any of this stuff anymore. I'm cleaning My life up forever. And of course that was. Did not turn out to be the case. But I made this bold proclamation and I remember my friend Luke was there and he was like, I. It's so. I cannot believe you're sitting in this van listening to Christian music right now. This is the craziest thing I've ever seen. And you know, we used to smoke so much weed and just. We get drunk every night and it was just like a absolute party for a full year. So that was the first encounter. Cut to, a few weeks later, I'm discovered and I go to Hawaii or go to la. I show up with a Bible in my hand. And it did not take long before, you know, you know, I had cleaned my house, but it was infested by, you know, the Bible verse about kick out the demons and seven more come back. And so I lived about 10 very wild years here in LA. Maybe, maybe six, maybe more. Anyways, I was kind of going back and forth and then like the clouds came in again. I just forgot. I was like. I forgot that I gave my heart. I forgot all this stuff is. It was. I remembered vaguely, but I. It was just wild. It's just the way the world works, I guess. It just kind of grabbed my attention and took me away. And then. And then I. Then when my son was born, he was born premature. And I remember in those. He was 10 weeks early and. And I was like, oh my God, I'm back on my knees. God, I can't believe, like I've. I just squandered every gift you gave me. I've been such a pos. I'm so sorry. Like, please fix him. And I give you my life. And. And then. And it changed me again. And then I. Then another very low moment when I went through a divorce. I was like, oh, I just over and over again, I keep falling and being lifted back up. And it wasn't until probably maybe the last. I want to say around the last nine or ten years that I really have. I haven't forgotten. You know, periodically I still screw up and all that stuff, but I. It's gotten really. Oh, are you there? Do you freeze? Oh, no, we're.
- [28:36]
C
We're wrapped. Our attention is wrapped.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah, I turned off my screen a minute ago to puke for a second, but I. I'm glad I faked it well enough that you didn't realize. I'm fully back, brother.
- [28:45]
B
Yeah. So that was it. That was it. And so that was that. So that's been my journey and it's a journey, you know, And I think when I. If I pray in the morning and, and give my first fruits and get into the scripture and, and it buys me like 24 hours of clarity. And it's not dissimilar to living in LA now versus Seattle growing up. The sun is out a lot in my life right now, the sun is out. And especially with children, it's really important to me that that's the main thing I can do is I think is, as a dad is just love their mom and just be bold in my, in my belief and in my faith in, in Jesus. Because I think that's. It's an embarrassing thing for a lot of people. You know, I think like the way it's. Way Christians are portrayed in the, in the world, we're all kind of like the Ned Flanders, you know, And I get it. It's kind of nerdy and it's obnoxious and people feel judged and people feel, you know, cringy about. About it, but I don't care. I don't care. I'm going to try not to make it cringy. I mean, you know, but. But it is who I am and it's who I want to be forever. And I hope that it is who I am forever.
- [29:56]
C
So in 2018, when you said to the world, the line is so good. God is real. God loves you. God wants the best for you. It was controversial. Yeah. It was like, well, what is he now and what's he doing and what are his politics and what's it all about and what's, what's, what's, what's what? And this total conflagration of, okay, now we're going to do something different with this person, talk, if you will, about the pressure, the difference. This is something we've talked to other guests about. I want to be a journalist who's a Christian. I don't need to be a Christian journalist. Right. I don't want to be siloed in the sense of like, well, that's all I write about. That's all I do. I want it. I want it to be essential to my vocational life. I want it to inform who I am, but I don't want it to define my interaction with the people who are reading me or watching me. Talk about how you rode the Ned Flanders. How did you think about doing it? And how did you, after you kicked off the maelstrom, how did it affect your faith?
- [31:11]
B
Like everything else in my life, I can't tell you how little I thought about it. Zero calculations. Yeah, that, you know. Well, you know what's funny about that? Can I tell you real quick? I'll back that up. So, yeah, he's speaking of that, that 2018 moment on the MTV Movie Awards. They gave me this Generation Award and I was like, what does it mean? And it kind of like the subtext was like, well, that means you're a little too old for the MTV Award anymore, so this will be the last time we give it to you. And so I said, okay, great. And they said, how long do I have? They said, three minutes. I said, okay, say whatever I want. And then I looked up all of the other, many of the other recipients and their speeches and stuff and, and I just thought to myself, like, if I could actually talk to the next generation, what do I want to say at this stage of my life? And if I back up to where I was in that stage of my life, I was getting divorced and I was back on my knees praying to God. And I, so I, and, and oddly I was, I was up, and I was up at the ranch, up at the farm, in, in Washington for a while and it was a really tough time in my life. And, and so I was. My friend Ryan works for the Special Olympics and I was helping him with, with the Special Olympics Washington. I was helping him with the fundraiser for Special Olympics Washington, just randomly. And so I remember being out on this run trying to lose some weight for a role or something and just like depleted and spiritually depleted and truly literally hitting my knees and saying, God help me, God help me again. You know, and, and so I end up doing this speech and I have to credit my faith journey. A big part of it also has to do with my business partner on the Terminalist, a guy named Jared Shaw. He's a former Navy Seal and he's a guy. He and I have, have been like kind of spiritual brothers, iron, sharp and iron type of friendship where, you know, I've, I've brought faith to him, he's brought faith to me. And it's been this really great friendship. And at the time he and I were roommates because I had moved out of my, the house that I had with my ex wife. And I was, you know, really vacillating highs and lows between like a faith life and also a very earthly life as a single guy. And so anyways, I, I did that speech and I remember just saying, like, I'm going to be bold. I'm going to say the things that I want to say. I'm going to say to this young generation the things that I want to say. I'm going to take a stand here and it's like God is going to save. And God has saved me multiple times. I'm going to actually, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and stand on it on this stage and say this to these folks. And so I did it. And you want to know what's crazy? So take all these things together. The Special Olympics charity, My great journey. God save me, they gave that speech. The next day was my first date.
- [34:04]
C
Come on with Catherine. And you had been doing Special Olympics volunteer work before?
- [34:09]
B
Yes. Yeah. And I had no baby. Yeah. So I was like, goosebumps, man.
- [34:16]
C
Yeah.
- [34:18]
B
Oh, man, I can't. Yeah. And so the next day, yeah, was our first date. And I just remember being. And then there we go. And it just like fast forward to, you know, eight years later and, and yeah, so that's, that's the context of that moment for me as I see it. But I think your question was about how do I. What did I think about and how did I navigate? It was interesting because I, up until that point, I had a pretty, you know, it's like the door to door sales thing. You're always kind of selling yourself. I always sort of understood how I was seen in the marketplace, and I think that's sort of an important, important thing. And maybe it's a little bit of a peek behind the veil of Hollywood, but people have an understanding of how they're seen in the marketplace. And I didn't have any, any haters. I remember people even saying to me, like, dude, everyone has haters. You don't have any haters. Like, there's nobody who has a bad thing to say about you. And it was because I was like, yeah, but I don't stand for anything. Why would I, Why would anyone hate? I, I'm completely deferential to whatever the world wants of me. I'll give you literally anything. Just keep me employed as an actor. And then. And I, and I, so I stood for something. And you know, if you don't, if you, if you don't stand for something, you kind of fall for anything. And that's. I should. Someone should make a song about that. No, it could be you, it could be me. And so that was it. So that was a little bit of conviction in there. And I didn't backtrack. I didn't say, oh, I'm sorry I said it that way. I didn't. I'm not going to apologize for that. So, you know, I believe strongly. It's worth it to me. I don't believe strongly in really any of the big divisive topics are primarily religion and politics. I don't feel strongly enough about politics to take a stand right now in a way cost me. I do feel that strongly about my faith, even if it cost me.
- [36:13]
A
Jesus said love your enemies. He didn't say don't have any. And to your Ned Flanders point, I mean, one of the wonderful things about being a Christian is we're going to screw it up over and over and over and over again. But to the degree the overly simplistic phony Ned Flanders view is out there, you get to come back and say no. Actually what I'm telling you is I'm sick. I mean, I'm actually sick, but I'm dependent. I'm needy. Like what being a Christian is, is to acknowledge that the law is right when it says that I'm wrong and I need the great physician. So if that's sounds hypocritical to you, join me on the side of regarding yourself as chief of sinners. Because that's my real identity.
- [36:55]
B
That's right.
- [36:55]
C
I have, I have 10 million questions that I want to ask you, but
- [37:00]
B
can we limit it to 9 million?
- [37:01]
C
Take it down to 9 million and
- [37:03]
A
he's flying to Japan soon.
- [37:04]
B
He needs sleep. Ask me all 10 guys. I'm loving this conversation and the free.
- [37:08]
C
The frequency with which Ben is vomiting is tells me that we decided Chris
- [37:12]
A
early on to make this an audio only podcast. Which kind of sucks since I think YouTube is the number one distributor now. But we just don't think people want to see the pixelated spray when I'm Chemo Yukin. So sorry about that a second time there.
- [37:26]
C
Chemo Yukin, I think is starting for the Dodgers. I think he's the, I think, I think he's the leading off the rotation. So we're, we're excited about that. So the, the one question related to all that you just said is that you work in a business that wants, wants you to be a monster in the sense that they tell you to be spe. That you're special and different and important and a wonderful snowflake and magical. And then when you act like the monster that you're allowed to be in the space, then you become dependent on them.
- [38:00]
B
Right?
- [38:01]
C
So if, if, when you see people who fail, who don't, who come to the same crossroads that you came to and didn't. Right. Who said, oh, I'm going to be a captive of this system. I'm going to be a captive of this and be dependent on new people to lead me around. Talk about being true to yourself, being true to the person who God made you. You just in. In very. In a wonderful way. You talked about the times that you came to those crossroads. Talk about. For young people who might be listening to this, the essence of. It's not that you're ungovernable, but that you don't let yourself be a monster, because if you're a monster, then you can be caged.
- [38:42]
B
Well, that's really. I think that's. That's beautifully said. My entire worldview is shaped on my understanding of God and. And on what I've learned from reading the Bible. And I can't help but see what we do in Hollywood or in the west or really in the world as. And I got to be careful about this because I love America, I love the west, and I believe in God's providence that we have something really extraordinary here. And I love Hollywood as well. I love movies. I love entertainment. I think it's okay. God tells us to rejoice. I think it's okay to not be a monk. You know, you don't have to just, like, sit in prayer at all. At all times. And I do know that as human beings, our hearts are designed in such a way that we have a spot reserved in them to be in awe of God. And I work in a business where we create idols and we worship them, and no one is worthy of worship. And so not only do we create idols to worship, we create idols to burn.
- [39:58]
A
Yeah.
- [39:59]
B
And so it's not an indictment on the system that they would look at me and say, you know what? He said this. So let's burn him. Everyone in my position is going to be burnt. And in a way, that's the survival. That's the challenge of surviving in my business is how long can you go? How long can you milk this system without it burning you down? And how many people have burned down in front of us? And we don't regard them in such a degree that we have like, wow, maybe this is wrong, what we're doing. How many people. How many people have killed themselves or drank themselves to death or have been estranged from their children or had met tragic ends or have lost their minds? All of them, dude, excuse my language.
- [40:42]
C
We have the technology, and so that's
- [40:45]
B
the path for all of us. And no one's worthy of the worship that we heap upon these folks. And so I. I don't. It's really important because I know so many people in this business that I approach my understanding of where they're at with grace because I don't think that I don't want to. To other them and make them the enemies because they're doing the physical and mental gymnastics to avoid the slings and arrows that are coming their way because they've been thrown on this stage and are, you know, the flaming arrows that come their way to burn them down. I. I have compassion for it. And. And that's. It's an interesting thing to see because one of the reasons it's so easy to watch these idols burn is because you're. No one is going to. No one's going to feel bad for them because they have everything that they don't.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah.
- [41:38]
C
What are you complaining about? What are you complaining about?
- [41:40]
B
They have money and they have fan, like, as a kid, you know, and for me, it's like, how really you made. How can you possibly complain if you've made that much money? Well, the truth is, you know, there's a certain brand of hopelessness that exists in people who have it all but still lack joy. Because at least if you don't have a pot to piss in, there's hope. Like, all I gotta do is just get that ticket, baby. I get that ticket, I'm free sailing. That's all. That's what's missing in my life. And then how about. Okay, how about give that to a person and then realize that actually they're incapable of being happy with even if they had it all. Give a person. That's why it's so. That's why you see people lose their minds, I think, in this business. And it's that Christine King quote that I use all the time, which is if the light inside of you, if the light that shines on you, you is brighter than the light within you, than the light that shines on you will kill you.
- [42:37]
C
Say that again. Will you say that again?
- [42:38]
B
It's Christine. It's a quote from Christine Caine. And she says. And I'm kind of going to butcher this probably, but if the light that shines upon you is brighter than the light that's within you, then the light that shines upon you will kill you. Ooh.
- [42:53]
C
Like an ant in a magnifying glass.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah.
- [42:56]
C
Wow.
- [42:57]
B
That's it.
- [42:57]
C
Okay.
- [42:57]
B
So hopefully there, you know, that's why I need it. That's why I need God, man. That's why I need God. Because having a nice house and a cool car and the ability to go on whatever fishing trip I want or to go on Bass Pro Shops. And I could probably, if I wanted to I could buy everything in the magazine. I used to fill those catalog cards out and just sit them by my bedside and never ordered a thing. But if I wanted to I could just order all the bass fish and stuff now and, but it doesn't, that doesn't, doesn't fill the hole inside of my heart that is in a very specific shape. That God is the only thing that can fill it.
- [43:33]
A
That's a, that's a profound way that you express compassion two minutes ago because in a weird way the people who make it to the top have a deeper awareness of the God shaped vacuum that still persists because you don't have the chase the hunt as the excuse to distract myself every day. I think it was a bumper sticker in the 80s when I was a kid that was essentially a midlife crisis shorthand. But it said it's pretty terrible to climb the ladder all day. Worse to get to the top of the ladder and realize you put it against the wrong building.
- [44:12]
B
Yeah, just right, right.
- [44:15]
A
You have the freedom now to say yes or no to anything that comes to you. You don't have to work. Obviously you like to work. It's a calling. But when you're evaluating scripts is a little bit more mundane. But it also is actually still on our same theme. There's really nobody who's big enough to be the chattering glasses of a Hollywood, you know, gossip writer saying Chris Pratt screwed up this way or he shrunk his audience or he's got a bunch of new haters. You're kind of too big because you can just drive an audience whatever you want to. How do you decide two and five years out what kind of projects you want to take on when you really don't have any boundary constraints. Constraints.
- [44:57]
B
I got a great support system and team. Like I've got an incredible manager who's got wonderful discernment and she, I rely on her, I ask her her opinion. I have a great agent who I've worked, you know, both of whom I've worked with for 17 years or so. And so I, I, I've, I run creatively things by them, you know, especially my manager. We kind of call her Dr. Doom. Her name is Julie Darmody and she hates everything and she's told and it' paid off. I mean, you know, they, she's had me say no to things that early in my career I would have never said no to because they were huge checks, you know. And I was like, this is close to life changing money for me. How can I say no to this? And she said, you just got to trust me. This is not, this is not the one for you. You got it. So like she's really, she's calculated and critical in a way that I'm not. So having that member of my team is really important. And then now more so there's, as my priorities in my life have shifted away. When I was early in my life, when I was married to my, to Anna, to Jack's mom, each of us had this thing which, this understanding which like our priority here is our careers. And if you get a job, you go do it, you know, because that's just how you have to be in, in to work and at that. And, and it caught, but it costs you something. And, and so now I'm not, I don't have that same type. I still have a priority of my career being very high, but it's not as high as the priority of being present at home. And so there's this old adage of do one for them and do one for you, which is go do the big commercial movie, you know, keep the lights on, keep the lights on and then go do that thing that's that prestige product project. You might not get paid a lot, but you get to express yourself as an artist. You get to, you know, be in the awards hunt, that kind of thing. And so the one that I me now is just not doing one and just staying home. And so I, I, I, I knew I le. I use the leverage that I do have, by the grace of God, a good amount of it to, to negotiate. Working close to home. I did two movies last year in Los Angeles. I was like one of the only people in LA who's actually working in la. I mean the crews would come up to me and say I haven't, I haven't done this in eight years. You know, like everyone, no one works here. La's, la's like the artistic Detroit. You know, it's like the end. We've outso, we've, you know, one of our greatest exports is, is movies in this country. And we've export, we've exported the labor on these movies for the same reason all of the other industries in our country have gone down the tubes because it's just cheaper to do it somewhere else. And, and so we, I was able to shoot two things in la. So that's, that's A big thing. I pro. In terms of prioritizing my choices. You know, I care about the character, I care about the creative, obviously, but I more so care now about like, can I be close to home? Can I go home at night? Can, you know. And so yeah, that's, that's it. And, and I sense it like I had a meeting with my manager and agent recently and we were like, I've been, I've been playing this terminalist character, James Reese, and then I've been doing some other things. Mercy I did recently and I did, you know, like, there's a certain irreverence in some of the roles that I've done and then there's, there's more of a seriousness in some of the roles that I've done. And I think like we're gonna steer more towards trying to do more comedy. Trying to bring fun and lightheartedness back, back into it. Because that's something I have. I mean I do the animated movies, which are fun and all of that stuff, but I mean, being on screen in a live action film, I'd like to kind of focus on getting back into some comedy.
- [48:39]
C
Where's the romantic comedy? That's what America wants from you. We, we're out here, we're asking you where is the, the charming romantic comedy with the, with you as the leading man? Let's, let's get it done, brother.
- [48:52]
B
That's what you want. Oh man. Well, the thing is this is tough. Here's the tough thing about. And I'm not saying that that wouldn't be. That'd be great. I'd like that a lot. One thing I find though is tough is oftentimes the studios will, you know, in order whether it's a romantic comedy or whether it's a strict romance. Oftentimes the sales of these products is predicated on some sort of sexual chemistry between the two lead actors. And so when, you know, look at. And then to, to get the word out about these movies, I feel like. And I can't. There's no, I have no evidence of this. But I suspected like they plant stories about like, you know, salacious affairs and, and attractions to one another and, and all this stuff. So people go, oh wow. And then they want to watch the movie to see if they can. It's just like a marketing actors fault.
- [49:40]
C
Right?
- [49:40]
B
That's. That was. Yeah. Sometimes the actors truly fall in love with each other. But also, but also sometimes it's. They don't. But it's, it's said that they do because it's kind of a way to get people to go see the movie. And I don't know that I have the heart to be part of a global press tour that's predicated on my sexual chemistry that someone is based on.
- [50:00]
C
I was going to say based on the name that's on the bottom of your iPad. I think that this is. This is. This is. This is not the way to go. And I'm. I'm going to abuse you with one more, and then I'm going to let Ben take us out with.
- [50:10]
A
With.
- [50:10]
C
With something more meaningful. But I thought about you. I was so mad when you guys remade the Magnificent Seven, which is my favorite movie. And I said, you don't need to remake the Magnificent Seven. And then it was. It was good, right?
- [50:25]
A
And it was.
- [50:25]
C
And it was different enough from the original that I was like, okay, I get it. There. There's homage going on here. I dig it. But then I thought, your character isn't the Steve McQueen character, but obviously informed by Steve McQueen's character. And then I thought, you've had to think about who it is. As you're approaching 50, who is the person that you want to be in the movie industry? Is it somebody. When you think about the legacy, is it a Jimmy Stewart kind of everyman?
- [51:04]
B
Who is.
- [51:05]
C
Who can. Who can sort of do all that stuff? Is it a Steve McQueen? Who is this. This guy? Like, when you think about who you want your. When. When. 25 years from now, people are talking about a type, right? Which type would you like to have attached to your name?
- [51:22]
B
A Chris Pratt type.
- [51:23]
C
A Chris Pratt. Well, so what will that be? What will be the. What will we say a Chris Pratt type is?
- [51:29]
B
I don't know. I guess we'll see. I had my first manager, Bonnie Owens, may she rest in peace. She was fantastic. And she took a swing on me as this young, you know, kid coming from Hawaii who needed his wisdom teeth pulled out and, you know, didn't have any money. She. I. I had her as a manager for. For a lot of years before she passed away. And. And she. You know, I would always compare myself to people, and I heard that question a lot, like, whose career do you want? And in different seasons of my life, they were like. Like, do you want. There was moments I was like this character as well as I got this character. There was other actors that looked like me, and they would say, do you like? I feel like that categorization is a very natural human thing to do. Comparison and categorization, like, who's who are you? Like, that's kind of what we do. I mean, all of our science is essentially based on what out there is the same, right? And how can we name it and label it and categorize it so we can best understand it? But I don't think she said, you can never do that. You can't compare yourself to anybody else because there's only one you. And you've got a thing about you that makes you unique, that makes you an outsider. Don't lose it, don't forget it, because it makes you special. It makes you who you are. And, you know, so I always tell young actors to not do that because I think agents, casting directors, producers, especially producers, they like to, you know, in trying to reverse engineer success, they look at and they have an algorithm of like, what worked. It had this actor, had this actor, had this theme was this long. They try to, you know, recreate success by creating things, you know, Frankensteining things back together with similar elements, similar, similar ingredients. But I, I think for me, I just want to be a Chris Pratt type and, and so hopefully that's, you know, if I were to guess it's somebody who could do comedy, you know, somebody who had a certain blue collar, outsider grit. I don't, I don't think that I'm necessarily, at least not yet a real character actor. I tend to breathe my own spirit into every role that I play. There's, I imagine that it's some version of me that the outside world has, you know, in this fictional world that we're creating, all of the elements of my life had led me to that position, and what choices would I make? And even if they're choices that I innately wouldn't make, what happened to me to put me in a position to make the choice that that character made so that it can be honest and be real. So I'm not like a guy who's like, like, you know, they're, you know, you know, Christian Bale or these big character actors who, you know, Daniel Day Lewis, where you're like, you blink in one day and you just like, you know, on set and you're completely different, creating a breathing, an entirely. Creating entirely different human being. I don't think that is probably going to be my path, especially now, because I've been in enough movies to where when people go to a movie, they have certain expectations of what they're going to see when I'm in it. So I think it's just, you know, something like me. But I did see that one time and it made me smile. Was. I saw an audition that said they were looking for a Chris Pratt type.
- [54:29]
C
Did you. Did you get the part?
- [54:31]
B
Well, no, it was. It was not usually what that means. What usually what that means is we want it. We want a Chris Pratt type, but we don't want to pay Chris Pratt, so we're going to buy someone else.
- [54:42]
A
We. We have overextended you from what we asked for. I want to ask some Hattie questions, because at my house, Moneyball is still you on endless loop. And the faces you make when you realize as Hattie that you're going to play a position that you're not able to play is just genius acting. I'm a novice about your craft, but it. It is brilliant the way you show all the insecurity of an athlete having to step on a field and play a different position. But let's close with this. You're a. You're a leading man. What do you want your sons to understand about what it means to be a man?
- [55:21]
B
Whoa,
- [55:24]
A
man.
- [55:25]
B
I am. I'm another link in a long chain of men, including my father, my grandfather, great grandfather, and beyond, you know, most of whom obviously I never met. But I want to get the things right that my dad got right. I want to get the things right that my dad got wrong. And so I guess what I hope that my kids know about being a man is that parents are just kids who had kids and that iron sharpens iron. I want them. It's wildly important that my kids know that my faith. Faith was real and that God is real. And all my sons and. And my daughters. And I want them to know that it's okay to have an understanding of what your emotions are and to be able to identify them and be able to process them and not just bury stuff. You know, it doesn't make you a man to just bury your issues. And I hope they have discernment to know that that is true. But also, sometimes you got to bury some. When you're the man. And, Matt, you know, thanks, dude, but don't. But listen, we can't leave right now, okay, Because. Because I just. I'm so honored to be on this podcast. And I. I know I opened with a joke saying that you were in a.
- [57:06]
A
Now you were right.
- [57:07]
B
But what I. It's. Yeah. And I just want to. I just want to end on that. Yeah, I was right. What I want to say. And I don't want you to. To not take this, because I know you're stoic, and I know that you don't like to talk about yourself this way. But, Ben, the world is going to miss you, and I'm going to miss you. I'm going to miss your voice and. And your intelligence. I think that you stand for something that is just so rare that we can't afford to lose it. And so I was even praying about this earlier. I said, God, how do we. What can I say? Will you give me the right words so that this light that's in, Ben, that is you love your country. You love the potential of your country, at least I feel. And you love being of service. You're highly intelligent, and you're a man of faith. Faith. And there's a. A. A gentleness in your intellect, in your point of view that I find incredibly disarming. And it's something that's sorely lacking in the space of politics. And I know that you at one point were in politics and you went into. Into, you know, being president down there in Florida and, And you're an author and all, and more than that, but I just want to know, like, if you had to. I want to ask you some questions, if that's okay, because I think I can talk about myself, and it's interesting to people. But the reason I did this was not to talk about myself, but was to actually shine a light on your legacy, Ben, because I think that you. You will have left the world better because of. Of being in it and being who you are in it. And so I want you if. Just a couple questions, like, what do you see as what's broken right now in this world? And is there anything that still gives you hope?
- [59:04]
A
Well, first of all, a few minutes ago, you said that you were trying to stay off the weed, and then you went this generous and gregarious, and so this podcast is going to become a carefrontation about your new drug addiction. That was much too kind. Thank you for the words. I hearken back to what you just said a few minutes ago, or you said, I'll paraphrase, that you want to live a life of gratitude because of all that God has done for you. You want to get right where your dad got right. You want your boys to want to get that right, and you want to get right what your dad got wrong. Really? You said, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and amen. I am, I don't know, day 96 or 97 since I got that three to four months to live. And I'm doing a heck of a lot Better now than I was at Christmas when I was diagnosed. So I got, you know, a few extra months to, to serve. But why we went forward with this podcast and with a few other things is we're always, always on the clock. We're all always on the clock.
- [60:12]
B
Right?
- [60:12]
A
We're all on our deathbeds. And the fact is, if you tell the truth about our mortality and dependence, your word, idol making or idol factories and idol burning are so real. Right? We're meant as dependent creatures to live lives of gratitude to God and to co create and to build and to cherish creation, but to ultimately pray, give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, and then tomorrow to do it again. It's a daily thing. And the idea that we're ever going to build a storehouse that's going to last is a pretty stupid misunderstanding of who we are. We're little kids who get to look at God and call him Abba, Father, Daddy, and He provides. And we get to live again today and try again tomorrow. And it just, it feels to me like there's a pretty great opportunity to love your neighbor when you only have a limited time left because you get to say something true. That's always true about all of us. Sorry, I didn't mean to get too philosophical.
- [61:21]
B
No, it's beautiful. That's beautiful.
- [61:24]
C
That's beautiful.
- [61:25]
B
That's great. I take that, man. I, I appreciate that. And so you say the hope you have is in. Is in God and is in getting right with God and praying that, that daily, that, that, you know, praying the way God tells us to pray. Then to whom else would I go?
- [61:43]
A
You have the words of eternal life. Life. And then you get to do a whole bunch of stuff that says, oh, let's also do a bunch of secular important tasks like build really good roads and do stuff that cherishes and maintains a framework for ordered liberty and makes people laugh and sets up really good food service where people can gather around a table and break bread together and cherish all the good stuff that comes from creation. Pretty great.
- [62:08]
B
Yeah. And do you think with the. Do you feel as though there's more brokenness now in the world than before, or do you feel as though. How do you feel about that? Like, it seems that way now, but also, I wonder if that's just the result of us having more windows into the reality around us.
- [62:25]
A
That's really interesting. I mean, I, I think at one level, Ecclesiastes is always right. Right. There's nothing new under the Sun. We're always wrestling with the same things and we're always tempted to build idle factories and try to build a storehouse which says, I can be independent. I don't need to rely on God anymore. I don't need to acknowledge the fact that I have finitude. But I do think there is something unique that happens when we've got super tools in our pockets.
- [62:52]
B
Right?
- [62:52]
A
Your, your point about the way you and Catherine are thinking about raising your kids and being outside feet touched grass, playing sports, learning how to sell reading books. There is something weird that happens when you take a super tool and says, let's let our consciousness escape the time and place where we actually live. And it creates a constant lusting in our souls. We, we the data. Middle class Americans are the richest people any time and place in all of human history. And yet this generation, relative to the previous four, is the first one who believes they have it much, much worse than, than people who've come before them. And yeah, it is true. Like you want to go nerd data. The the age of first home acquisition continues to creep higher and higher. So there are some things that are bad, but the main thing that's happening is people don't buy the first house because its average size now is 2600 square feet. That's the average size in America. And in 1945 to 1955, coming back from World War II, when everybody was buying a house by 28, 29, 30, the average house was 700 square feet. Everybody could, not everybody, but most people can afford the 700 square foot postage stamp house. It's just we all think we need a McMansion now. And so the phones do create a sense of constant, limitless lust in our soul. The denominator keeps growing of what we expect is the normal experience. Wow, that's lonelier. There's less. You can have a lot more money and still have a lot less community. And it turns out more money doesn't actually make you happier. You need enough to not have your tummy hurt when you go to bed at night, but you really want thick community and breaking bread with people around you. And when you look at the challenges of your child rearing, you know how hard it was when you were 16, 17 and your dad was sick and you guys were having the house foreclosed on you. But that dream chasing was a common cause for your mom and your dad and your siblings. And now it's a lot. It's going to be harder for you to instill that in your kids because the necessity is going to be artifice. You're going to have to manufacture a sense that the grid of their work is necessary because everybody knows your bank account's going to last a few generations if you want to do it that way.
- [65:05]
B
And so looking at this, can you imagine in your mind any solutions to some of the problems that we face? I mean, and I hear your first point, that the answer is and God, are there secular governmental solutions to this? If that isn't that is can exist outside of potentially like a big nationwide revi. Spiritual revival.
- [65:28]
A
Great question. I mean, I spend a lot of time, I mean did before this diagnosis still teaching every year for a long time. I'll still teach a class and I teach Alexis de Tocqueville a lot because I think the mediating institutions are a really important question that is not all the way to theological revival. All but is a lot more than just the secular tools of power. And so I'll start with family, but I think there are a bunch of small platoons which are about those local fit communities where people learn what it's like to actually have an expansive enough sense of self that you take joy when other people are thriving and you feel pain when they're hurting, not because somebody mandated you do it, but just because you love them. Family is the placeholder for all other communities.
- [66:18]
B
Right. So those. Yeah, I love that about you've. I've heard you speak on that before. The strength of communities, the fabric of our communities, our Rotary Clubs and our Boys and Girls Clubs and. And yeah, now that so many communities are virtual, it's tough because you're not really touching and feeling and communing with people in a physical way. Got it. Well, I mean, man, I think I
- [66:51]
A
said it in two. Know it all the way. But the way you just summarized it, I think is right. I mean, habits. Habits can change the world. Habits can change a country. But you only inculcate habits if you're in thick enough community. And so the digital revolution is going to bring both heaven and hell at the same time.
- [67:08]
B
Right.
- [67:09]
A
It has the potential of bringing unbelievably good things, but it also has the likely potential of hollowing out the best things that were thick and local to begin with. And the question is, how do you create the habits to augment the best of the local with more of the distant without letting the distant undermine the local? Because you need the. You need the local first. Politics can't save America. Families save America. Rotary Club, as you said, Boys and Girls Club, Special Olympics saves America. Future farmers of America.
- [67:38]
B
Yeah, that's it.
- [67:40]
A
We gotta have you back on. We've kept you longer than. Than we asked, but this has been super fun.
- [67:47]
B
Fun.
- [67:48]
A
And if you're. If your game will bug you again, we'll do it again.
- [67:51]
B
Great. Let's go. I'm absolutely game and it's wonderful to see you. And Chris, nice to meet you.
- [67:59]
C
Really nice to meet you. Thanks for everything you shared. Really, it. It touched my heart. It was really good.
- [68:05]
B
Awesome. Well, I love you guys. And Ben, I'm praying for you. Please give my best to your family.
- [68:09]
A
Thanks, brother.
- [68:09]
C
You as well.
- [68:11]
B
And well. Yeah, let's do it again. Well, I. I hope to see you soon. Soon.
- [68:15]
A
Thank you, sir.
- [68:16]
B
All right, bye, guys.
- [68:19]
C
Well, Professor, I know it was probably you that beat Chris Pratt out for the 2014 Sexiest man of the year, but other than that, what did you learn?
- [68:29]
A
I think it's actually 26. That I got a shot, right.
- [68:31]
B
If I can keep bleeding down just
- [68:34]
A
a little bit on my cheeks. Yeah. Cancer division. That is great.
- [68:37]
C
Sexiest people's sexiest man Cancer division.
- [68:40]
A
Sexiest metastasized bloody face man. Yeah, that's. I got that going. That was a ton of fun. I. We've all done a lot of jobs that are functionally sales, but I've never really done many jobs that were exactly sales. I mean, I vended at every sporting event in the history of Nebraska. I set a. Set a bunch of records at Farmade 1983. You know, selling $211 at. At a Willie Nelson concert when you're 11 was pretty great.
- [69:09]
B
Selling.
- [69:09]
C
What were you sell. What were you selling?
- [69:10]
A
Oh, vending in the stands Nebraska's football stadium, then seated 76,375.
- [69:16]
C
Food.
- [69:17]
A
Oh, yeah. Unfair advantage.
- [69:19]
C
You're selling food at a Willie Nelson show.
- [69:21]
A
That's the munchies were present.
- [69:23]
C
Yeah. Come on.
- [69:25]
A
But I mean, I really, really like his idea that everybody needs to be able to do sales. It's just a part of life. It's not just a paid what we used with micro profession versus vocation. But it isn't just a job. It's a calling to be able to be external facing from an organism, operation, team, unit, whatever. And to make the. To say join us in this project or give us your money.
- [69:52]
B
The.
- [69:53]
C
The idea of I wrote it down and it sticks with me. Positive mental attitude equals other people's money. And the fact that he had that right at the tip of his fingertips, that he was like ready to go with that and that it had Stayed with him. You know, my dad was a salesman and he sold coal to public utilities and, you know, huge corporations. But like the Willy Lomanness of it out there with a shoe shine and a smile and that you. The. It takes a lot of courage. Right. You did it. Running for office. That's a. The correct amount. The correct amount of dysfunctional narcissism with self awareness that is required to say, hey, I'm going to go talk to how many people live in Nebraska?
- [70:49]
A
2 million.
- [70:51]
C
So to say. Well, bigger than West Virginia. Okay. To say, I'm going to go tell 2 million people why they should buy this model and why I'm going to do it. Like the Mark Twain line, the secret to success in life is the right combination of ignorance and arrogance.
- [71:12]
B
There's. You got.
- [71:12]
C
You got to have a little. You got to have a little Willie Loman in you.
- [71:16]
A
That's great. I. I had a rancher in western Nebraska one time early in my first campaign. This is fall of summer, fall of 2013. He said, I think your Jack Kemp meets a panhandler. In other words, I was going way too nerdy, long winded. But I hadn't played in the afl. NFL.
- [71:38]
C
That's kind of the highest praise. Like, yeah, yeah.
- [71:42]
A
As the son of. As a son of a football coach, I was gonna take that.
- [71:45]
B
Yeah.
- [71:46]
A
The other thing that I thought was spectacular, what I just learned something about is when he said that the job of a dad is getting right what your dad got right and getting right what your dad got wrong. That's heavy stuff, because I've often thought that one of the reasons why nostalgia often hurts over time. Time is I think most of us grow up and we think some stuff in our upbringing works and some stuff in our upbringing doesn't work. And we bank what works and we say we're going to work on or fix the stuff that doesn't work. And so you just assume when you become a parent, everything your parents did right, you're definitely going to just do right. It's all. It's easy, it's obvious, it's automatic, and you'll do better than they did on the stuff you don't think they did right. And it turns out the stuff you banked may actually take a bunch of work as well. And so to not go into it with this entitled assumption, but to say, I got a lot of work to do. I need to hon and be grateful for these people. I got to repeat that. I got to be present for my kids. I got to let them Know, I believe in them in, in my, in our tradition, Chris. We, we believe in daily repentance. Right? Like one of the best things I get to do for my kids is love their mama. Not tell my kids to the center of the world, but also just repent in front of them all the time. And I'm, I'm blessed that I grew up with parents who did that.
- [73:00]
C
I think the, I had a, a privileged upbringing in a material sense.
- [73:07]
A
Yes, we were bowl in West Virginia, man. You were at the tentacle.
- [73:13]
B
Well, definitely, definitely.
- [73:14]
C
We were whatever upper, upper middle class was that was like there were country clubs were involved, private schools were involved. And so I had this, I had a privileged upbringing that way, but I had an extraordinarily privileged upbringing because my parents were, were, they loved us and they were, they love and, and the, at the nucleus of that was their love for each other and the, the power of that. And it was such a good way to be. And I think the thing that I, and I, I'm probably projecting. I think part of what I heard from Chris Pratt was the reminder to. For me, when I was young, young, I assumed that the living of a good life was the easy part and the career and vocation would be the hard part. I took for granted, like, yeah, I'll be somebody's dad. Yeah, I'll be somebody's husband. I'll be a great husband. I'll be a great dad. I'll have a great life. Like the life part of life I took for granted. And this go to go all the way back to Amy Coney Barrett. The I've wrestled with the idea of what does making family first mean? And it is in the million little decisions and the decision tree that you make as you go forward. Like, am I going to take this trip to go here or am I going to go to the golf match to cheer my son on? Am I going to do this or am I going to do that? And so there are all the little million next right things. But there's also the thing that when I was young, I expected and took for granted that all those things would come to pass. And I failed to prioritize it correctly. Right? And so at 50, I look back and I'm like, you dumb 25 year old Chris Steinerwald, why didn't you know? You should have known. And I think part of it was because my parents had such a great marriage and such a good family that I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That part's the easy part. And I didn't prioritize it correctly. And that's something that I've. I've learned from our guests.
- [75:17]
A
Well said. Well, you gotta get out of here. But Clay Christensen was a mentor of mine. Long time Harvard Business School Prof. Now dead of the same nasty stuff I have. But he was the great scholar of the history of how innovation, new technologies are not what the layman thinks. The layman almost always believes that technological innovation are probably the highest quality, most expensive products for the most discerning, knowing consumers. And usually really new technological innovations are a bias for. For non consumers, how to deliver a really crappy product. But to people who had never before had access to this thing, you made. You made something that is. I mean, the. The laptop was a piece of crap compared to a mainframe, right? But all of a sudden the local business could do accounting that they never used to be able to do before that. Clay is known for all that stuff. He and I are both Boston Consulting Group alums as well. But he has this line and we can. We can wrap. He has this line. I realized early on in my time at BCG that if I just started agreeing to work Saturday nights and Sunday mornings and Sunday afternoons, I was very quickly going to optimize for a system that wasn't the thing that I wanted. The thing that I wanted was to do good work. But the family was actually my priority. And so I had to say no in the small things. So I didn't habituate the idea that, well, there's always an extenuating circumstance. We have a client presentation on Monday morning, so my kids are important, but this is unique, this presentation, presentation. It's always unique. It turns out dinner with your kid tonight. That's unique.
- [76:56]
B
That's unique. All right, weirdo.
- [76:59]
C
All right, that's it for this week's episode. We hope you'll like review and subscribe and tell a friend. Feel free to email us with your thoughts, corrections, questions, or whatever is on your mind. Write us at sassand styrewalt gmail.com. this podcast will was produced by Scott Emergut with the help of our colleagues at the American Enterprise Institute. The music is from Drew Holcomb and the neighbors. Thanks for listening and keep living the good life.
- [77:49]
B
I was just saying I thought that Ben was a real. Yes, that's.
- [77:54]
C
That we are talking about.
- [77:55]
A
That is exact.
- [77:56]
C
Now. Now you're in the spirit of this podcast.
- [77:59]
A
Katherine Schwarzenegger, you speak the truth.