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Not Dead Yet
Jack and John Harbaugh
01:14:54
Happy Fathers Day! While Chris is pulled away for journalism stuff, Ben talks about more important things with America’s football family. Jack and John Harbaugh talk about building character, raising families, and living with gratitude. “Who's got it...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hi, I'm Ben Sasse.
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B
And I'm Chris Stylewald.
- [00:12]
A
And this is not dead yet. We're all dying, but only some of us have been brought face to face with that reality.
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B
However long each of us has to do it, though, we all want to
- [00:22]
A
live a good life, one with meaning, love, and joy. And our guests are here to help us do exactly that.
- [00:31]
B
Well, well, well, well. Ben Sass. So this session, you had to fly solo for the first, and I hope the only time, because I was doing other things. And obviously, when you had the chance to get two people like Jack and John Harbaugh at the same time for this Father's Day episode, you weren't gonna. We weren't gonna turn our noses up at that. So. So I'm very interested. I'm very interested to hear everything that these guys have to say, but I'm also interested to see how you do. I have to admit, I thought, well, this is a guy. He's asked a lot of questions of a lot of people in a lot of settings, but how's he going to do without me? Is he going to be okay? Am I really just redundant in this?
- [01:17]
A
First of all, happy Father's Day, Chris.
- [01:19]
B
Happy Father's Day.
- [01:20]
A
Your. Your paternity role to your lads is near and dear to your heart. It's a core vocation. But as far as you missing a recording like this, please don't ever let your paid vocation again interfere with this avocational side project. We missed you, but we. We had a blast, actually. Jack is a hoot. The dude is pushing a hundred, and he had more energy than John and I by miles. So I think. I think our folks, including you, who hasn't heard it yet, are going to enjoy this and learn a lot.
- [01:59]
B
Okay, so here are some particulars about the Harbaughs. Jack Harbaugh, who, as you say, is. Has been. Has been around for a few scrimmages. He played his football at Bowling Green University. He coached around. You know, the Harbaughs really are from my neck of the football world more than your neck of the football world. So these guys are central and Eastern Ohio and all that jazz, which are. And so reading their bios, you're going through, and you're like, oh, yeah, I've been there. Yeah, my high school played that high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he played his college football, Bowling Green, coached around Ohio football for five years here. I just have to go through the list because it. It blew my mind. He has coached at Morehead State, Bowling Green State University. He was at I. Iowa. He was at Michigan. He was at Stanford. He was at Western Michigan. He was at Pit.
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C
Bu.
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B
He was at Western Kentucky. He was at San Diego. I think he was at Stanford twice. This is this amazing career where he coached all over the college world. His sons, Jim and John, both went into the family business. You talked with John, notably for listeners. John Harbaugh was the head coach of the Baltimore Ravens from 2008, 2020-2025. One of the winningest coaches in the NFL in that span, won a Super bowl, was the only NFL head coach to win a Super bowl against his own brother. When those two played in the super bowl against each other, he. In January, the Ravens went in a different direction, and almost instantly, the New York Football Giants picked him up. He coached at colleges across the country. He has this remarkable, very winning NFL career. And what. What a biopack. You gave me extra homework this week.
- [04:00]
A
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for that. There are threads to pull on in about 16 directions. We didn't end up just because of time getting to the Ravens. Really weird choice of firing one of the winningest coaches in history, including winning a Super bowl, going to the playoffs every year.
- [04:18]
B
It.
- [04:18]
A
It's weird, but we also didn't get to wrestle hard about some of the fights between him and brother Jim, who wasn't on the episode. And if Jim had been, we'd have to play journalists a little bit and go after him for departing Michigan as he did when he did. But what I like is your phrase, family, business, these guys. My dad was a football coach in Nebraska, and if I had life to do over again, I'd probably be a football coach. Have lots of regrets that I didn't follow in that line. But these guys grew up with their dad as a journeyman assistant coach and then later head coach at Western Michigan, Western Kentucky, as you mentioned. And a huge part of their identity was formed not just by being around the practice field every day, but around their dad's relentless cheeriness that even though they were getting fired all the time, he used to say, old, old Jack Harbaugh used to say, who's got it better than us? Like, nobody's got it better than us. And so I think that conservatism, you know, there's economic policy fights, there are social and cultural policy fights, but at its core, following our friend Yuval, I think the heart of conservatism is gratitude, which is when there's change, you can make some stuff better. And some stuff might get worse, but one of the reasons you're a conservative is because you don't want to lose all the good stuff that you've gotten that you didn't deserve. And I think that not speaking to politics, but just speaking to dispositional gratitude, Jack Harbaugh is one of those kinds of conservatives. And his boys grew up always feeling like they were blessed because they had work to do together. And I think a family business is creating men who will go on to lead their families. And there's something great about that on Father's Day.
- [06:02]
B
Well, let's see how you do taking your hand flying solo on this one. Let's go.
- [06:08]
A
All right. I am very pleased to be joined by two of the legends of America's first family of football Coach Jack Harbaugh, Coach John Harbaugh, gentlemen, for a Father's Day episode. Talking sports with the two of you is a real pleasure. Thanks for making time.
- [06:25]
C
Great to be on back. We appreciate it, man. It's. I. I love. Love everything you stand for, but we all do. Our whole family does.
- [06:32]
A
Well, you're. You're very generous. Let's. Let's start. And forgive me, because as the son of a football coach, I know that there are few titles higher than coach. I want to call you both coach the whole time, but then we'll get confused. So I'll stick with Jack and John to distinguish you. But let's start by just talking about sports in general, but football in particular. Particular. And character development. Why does football matter so much in American culture? And if you're a high school kid, or maybe you're the mom of a ninth grader who wants to play football, and the odds on this guy playing on Saturday, let alone ever playing on Sunday, are a million miles away. Why is. Why is it important to play football as a kid?
- [07:12]
D
Go ahead, dad. Well, I think I could tell a quick story. Jim was playing here back in the 80s, and his first game as a starter was his fourth year. Here they were playing Miami Florida. Florida had just won the national championship the year before, and he was going to be the starting quarterback. And he was nervous. Very, very nervous. He went to Jerry Hanlon, who was his position coach, and asked him, he said, coach, what kind of team are we going to have this year? And Jerry said, I don't know. And Jim said, jerry, you've been here 20 years. You've been around football 20. What do you mean, you don't know? He said, I really don't know. He said, because in coaching and Teaching and, and what we try to do in the game of football, we won't know what kind of team we have until 20 years down the road. When you're fathers and when your husbands and when you're in a community and you're commu and you're doing things to make the community better and make the world better, you come back and you tell us that. Then we know exactly what kind of football team that we have here at the University of Michigan this year. Love it, Love it.
- [08:24]
A
This, the second string guy is a part of the team even if he doesn't contribute anything inside the 60 minutes to drive the scoreboard that day.
- [08:31]
D
And I will say they won the game as well.
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C
I think Miami was ranked number one when they did. But football is the ultimate, it's kind of the ultimate team sport. And it came up with our team a couple weeks ago when we had the quote unquote controversy about our quarterback shaking hands with the president, introducing him at a political rally, then another player who expressed his disagreement with that. And it's such a microcosm of society and prepares those who are involved in it for what is going to be a part of their life for the rest of their life and how to navigate all these kind of things. When you're part of a team, you know you're part of a group of people, especially a football team, that come from every kind of different place. Every, every race, every religion, every socioeconomic background, every family situation, every. Both sides of the tracks, all sides of the tracks in a town or a city. It's just what football players come in every kind of shape, every kind of size. There's big players, there's little players, there's skinny players, there's fast players, there's strong players, there's players, there's players that really are never going to play, but they're still a part of the team. Okay, Then there are people who are with the team, the staff, the managers, the trainers that get to be still a part of the team, a part of this team that's going to go compete with one another for one another, for something bigger than themselves. And you confront all of those types of things that we confront in our society. Or when you get on the workplace, on a job and you become part of a company, you go to school, you go to college, these are the things that you're going to face. And now you've had experience in terms of what it takes to know somebody who's different than you, comes from a place different than you, thinks Differently than you, has a different opinion of you and respect them, get to know them, maybe even come to love them. Maybe they'll be in your wedding someday. Maybe they become your best friend. You would have never imagined these two people being connected the way they will be connected. Really what ends up being for the rest of their life. And what Jerry's talking about, when my dad was in that story is 20, 20, 30, 40 years from now, these two guys are going to call each other up. You know, they're going to, they're going to, they're going to, they're going to be godfathers to their kids and those kind of things. That is something that society can benefit from. Not just. Well, first of all, because our young men and women now who are playing flag football too, and are part of teams, to be a part of these teams and learn these lessons, but also people can look at that thing that happened with us a couple weeks ago and say, wow, I never thought about that. Maybe we could handle that the same kind of way. And that would be good, really good.
- [11:14]
A
For those of us who've only been on, you know, big teams. The high school team in Nebraska is regularly 100 or even guys who played a lot of college over the years. When rosters back in Nebraska in the 80s had 165 guys on them. And now we're moving from 105 down back toward, you know, 85 or 90. Tell us about what it's like in a locker room or the story you're telling right now, John, about a 45 to 53 member team that also has guys who are, you know, fully formed men. You got, you got guys in the, in their 40s, in your locker room, but your average age is probably what, 25 and a half, 26, 27. They're not, they're not 17, they're not 19. Is there still that romance about team even when you're a fully formed man and in a room of only a couple dozen?
- [12:01]
C
That's a great question. You know, I think, I think that that is one of the coolest things about like pro football is you have these guys, we have, we have 35 year old defensive linemen that, that just came in the room in the last couple of weeks, standing in front of the room and telling the team what their purpose in life is and what their identity as a, as a, as a person is or as a husband and father and what their identity as a player is and what we can expect from them as a player. Just like the rookie player who stands up in front of the room, we're all in this together. And yet they bring something different to the table. Because now you're talking about a guy who's a family of four. He's got his, maybe daughters are in junior high or high school, and talking to the young guy about, you know, 21 year old things, you know, from his perspective. So it's the beauty of it. And like, I mean, even as coaches, dad, would you say, you know, why do you coach? Why do you stay a part of this? Because you never want to lose that. You never want to lose that locker room, that team, that camaraderie, that connection that kind of lasts for life. You just can't, you can't let it go, right, dad? You can't let it go. You want to be part of a team. So when they throw you out, oh, you're not good enough anymore. You're gone. Yeah, you, you know, you're not good enough to play in the NFL. You're not good enough to play in college. You know, okay, I'll coach. I think I'll stay a part of this. I think I'll keep coaching.
- [13:17]
D
The quick add to that, if I could, is I'm really disappointed that we're, we're eliminating some of the walk ons that, that we had. As I go back over my career, I was never a pro football coach, always in college. And we have these reunions now, and we come back and some of the guys were the walk ons and they may have played one player, played four or five plays, and they're back here. They're Michigan men. You know, they, they went through four years of football where they competed every single day as a demonstration player maybe, or, or something. And they're so proud of that. And they bring their kids with them and their wives with them. They all have a chance to celebrate. And after that, 20 or 30 years, they're all one great team of guys that will carry that for the rest of their life. And I'm at my age and what we've gone through in football, that is one of the things that I'm most disappointed in, that we're eliminating those guys. And now everybody's on a contract, everybody's on some kind of a, of a deal. And those guys are being discarded.
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C
I didn't. Yeah. What is, what is happening? Why, why are walk ons not a part of it anymore? What's the rule? I didn't know they had. I thought we didn't have rules in college football anymore.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah, we don't we don't have any counterparty to negotiate Saturday afternoon pro football with. But we. They still think we have to keep shrinking the roster size. Yeah, no, the guy. Jack, your point? The guy who's going to be an insurance agent is just as much a part of a team as the guy who's going to go pro. And in some ways, the spirit of service and the sublimation of self is even more in the guy who's not going to get a lot of playing time under the Klig lights. I mean, Kenny Chesney's Boys of Fall still makes me ball like three or four times a year. And a huge part of that is the guys who aren't getting the key play that wins the game.
- [15:13]
C
And those guys come back and it's and. And successful. Whatever, whatever They'. Life. But these guys, a lot of Times they're like CEOs, man. They're running companies. And what they'll tell you is what I learned in football, what I learned about being a scout team player in college football or high school football propelled me to the lessons. And that's how I lead my, my whole company. Right, dad? You get that? All tied, man. I'm sure when you talk to guys that play football.
- [15:37]
D
We had a time here, back here in Michigan when I was Bo Schembeckler with both Schembecher and we were having a practice and some of the demonstration guys, the young players, the freshmen coming out for the first time, they had been great players in high school. All at once they found themselves on the scout team, you know, the varsity of the offense and the defense running at them. And there was some discord among the players. And so Bo blew the whistle and he called them together. We had about 110 players and they said, guys, anyone that has not served on the special on the demonstration team that weren't run over by the offense and run over by the defense and we're. I want you to. If you've never been on the scout team, I want you to run down under the goalpost to my left. Two guys went down. Rick Leach and a guy named Mike Jolly was a defensive back. Every single guy, all 108 that were still standing there had performed on the demonstration team and are better men for whether they play a down at the University of Michigan or Bowling Green State University or Western Kentucky University, they're better men and I'm so proud of them. As much as proud of them as any player I've ever coached.
- [16:53]
B
Reach 80.
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A
80% of life is scout Team grunt work. You got to take a beating and get back up and serve your team again. Jack, you've raised three gritty kids and this is a Father's Day episode. Start us off with some of your lessons of gritty character formation as a dad. And then I want. I want to hear you distinguish little bit parenting versus coaching.
- [17:17]
D
First of all, a quick story here. I was coaching at Michigan and came home one night about 11 o' clock after a long day in which our team had not. Defensive backs had not performed very well. And Jackie wife was sitting on the couch and she was in tears. And I asked her what was going on. She said she had had a rough day at home as well. And so. So she was upset. And I said, what do you want me to do? You want me to walk up those steps and grab those two guys and shake them up a little bit? She said, no, no, it happened at times.
- [17:54]
C
That was something that may have flipped off of that.
- [17:58]
D
Whatever it was. But anyway, she goes, no, I don't want you to do that. I just want you to listen to me and realize what, what's. What's happening here at home. And we had a coming together of minds. And I said, jackie, here's the deal. We are a part of two teams right now. We have a family here at home and we have a family over in. In the Schembecher hall or where we're. We're working every day. Here's the deal. You are going to be the head football coach of this team at home. I'm going to be your loyal assistant. I'll be an offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, whatever. Asking me, asking me to do it. And I'm going to be your. And that'll allow me to spend time over there knowing that I've got the greatest head coach that we could possibly have in the family. So over these years and all the things that we've gone through, and John and Jim and Joni, and now 11 grandkids and two grandchild children. All praise and glory to a fine, fine head coach Jackie Sopiti Harbaugh. The.
- [19:07]
A
The distinction. Do you want me to solve the problem or you do? Do you want me to listen? I'm 54 years old and 32 years married, and I still forget that one, like four times a day.
- [19:17]
D
I have to admit, I. I have the same problem at times.
- [19:20]
C
I got a question for you. I'm a little f. This story. I tell the story, I think sometimes differently than you do, but we're playing. Jim was playing a baseball we were a baseball game and I was already there. We had ridden our bikes to the baseball park. And you came later with the car, the station wagon, and, and Jim was at bat and he popped one up and he didn't run it out.
- [19:42]
D
And baseball. And he was playing and I was in the stands and you came later. I think you rode your bike.
- [19:48]
C
Oh, no, no, no. I was already there with my brother.
- [19:51]
D
I know we have a little different on this story, so let me, let me go through by then you can.
- [19:56]
C
Okay.
- [19:57]
D
So anyway, Jim was playing and it was extra innings and he's leading off of first base and he was, he was down first by raising his hand. He was doing. Going through some antics down at first base and he dag on if it didn't pick him off. He's out. And he goes to the bench, you know, and he's on the bench and coaches there. And I, and I go. I come out of the stands and John's up in the stands and I come out of the stands and I give him, come here, come here, coaches. No, no, no, I can handle it. I said, no, no, this is what I'm going to handle. I said, get on, get your bicycle. We had a station wagon, I think at the time. John was right there beside me. And we're going, you're going home. This game is over for you. So took him out of the dugout, took him to the car, opened the back of the trunk of the car, threw his bicycle into the back of the trunk. I said, you in the front seat? And he goes, I said, right. So he gets in the front seat and John's go, how about me? I said, and I don't know if you had a. Do you have a bicycle, John, or were you walking?
- [21:06]
C
I'm going to tell a different story. This is a different story.
- [21:10]
D
But anyway, my story is. And I told. I thought John didn't have a bicycle. And I said, well, you're walking home. And John said, walking home? I didn't do anything. Why do I have to walk home and he gets the ride. I said, because I'm going to be talking to him in a very, very difficult, with difficult conversation here.
- [21:30]
C
And I see it, okay, why just let me ride a bike home? I mean, I just noticed. I don't, I don't think.
- [21:36]
D
I don't.
- [21:37]
C
Okay, here's how I remember the story.
- [21:39]
D
So let me just finish with my ending. Why do I have to walk home and he's going to ride in a car? I said, because you ever, if you Ever think about doing something like that? You're going to be in the same position that he's in right now, and it's not going to be a very nice position that he's in. Okay, John, go ahead.
- [22:00]
C
You can see how unfair that would have been to me.
- [22:02]
A
But I. I think I hear an excess bike. I don't know why you couldn't have just commandeered it.
- [22:07]
C
I think this is so. This probably. That probably happened. And I forgot that one. I blacked that one out of my memory. And most people listening could understand why a kid would do that, but I was so. Another time. And I swear I remember this like it was yesterday. We had both gone. We had both ridden our bikes to Veterans park, which is across town. And we're there, and Jim. And then dad comes later with the same station wagon, I'm sure the yellow one with the wood side, and drives up and he comes out and starts. And just as he comes out, Jim pops one up and walks, walks, just walks back to the bench. Guy catches it, he's out. That was like a golden rule. Whatever you do, you play hard. You run everything out, right, dad, you run everything out to first base. And Jim didn't do it so that you didn't say anything till the end of the game. Now we're walking back. We got our bikes, we're walking back to the car. We figured the bikes are going to back well, so you take Jim's bike and you throw it in the back and you look at him and you. And he goes to get in the car and you go, oh, you're not getting in the car. You're walking. Jim's like, why? Why am I walking? He goes, well, you like to walk so much, you walk at first base. You can walk all the way home tonight. And I remember looking at you going, yeah, that sounds right. That's right to me. You shouldn't be walking. Jim, get going. And then you take my bike and you throw it in and I go to get in the car and you say, no, no, you're walking, too. And why am I walking? I didn't even play. And you go, because you're his older brother. You should have taught him better. Go, start walking. And we, we walked all the way home.
- [23:42]
D
You know what? Your. Yours is a much better story. But could you. Could you find some way to exclude my answer to that question? I think John's is a lot better.
- [23:51]
C
I think both stories happened at one point in time. As my guess, you probably had. Had the whole bike walking thing down and teaching us a good life lesson.
- [24:01]
D
It was about a mile walk, if I remember, from park to our house, wasn't it?
- [24:05]
C
About three miles, I think. Three miles. I know it was uphill the whole way.
- [24:09]
A
Both ways, Both ways. How old are the boys at this point, John, of 12?
- [24:14]
C
13, I'd say.
- [24:15]
D
Yeah.
- [24:15]
A
Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, so tell us, in these two families, Jack, that you mentioned, you ultimately take your boys from family of biological origin to family of football workplace as well. How did you start to fold them in? And then, John, I want to. At what point did you recognize you were going to be able to be at practice all the time. And that this was a future, not just. Not just dad's work?
- [24:40]
D
That's a great, great question. When we moved, as we moved around, I was at Bowling Green State University, was my school, and. And the kids were able to go out to practice. Don Meyland was our head coach and hall of Fame coach at West Virginia at the time. He was a Bowling Green grad. So he let all the kids come out and they practiced. Then we went to. We went to Iowa from there, where the coach didn't allow him to be there. But Jackie used to bring them out in their strollers or whatever they were, and they would run around and she kind of herded over of them. And then we went to Bowling Green and I mean, we came to Michigan with Beau, and kids were not allowed to come to practice. We had the tarp around the field, and there was a manager guarding the gate. Nobody got on the practice field. No kids were on the practice field. So one day, Jackie went to lunch with Beau's wife, Millie, and they were having lunch, and Millie asked her, Jackie how she liked it at Michigan. And Jackie said, you know, the only thing is kind of disappointing is Jack was always able to get the kids around practice, and they were allowed to come over. John and Jim were allowed to come over. And we can't do that here. And Millie said, why not? Well, Bo doesn't allow it. He doesn't allow kids to be on the field. So about the next Monday, at prior in the meeting, we're in a meeting, and I'm sitting next to Bo, and he goes. He leans back in his chair, he says, you know what, guys? All of you, here's what I. I'm thinking. My Jack's got two kids. Gary Mohler's got a son that plays linebacker, eventually played linebacker in Michigan. And Terrell Burton's got a son. And I think we ought to let the Kids come out to practice. What do you guys think about that? That's a great idea. He said, well, it was my idea and think it's a great idea. I'm sitting over there kind of thinking to myself, sure, it was your idea. They really pulled this off. So anyway, they started coming out and we were practicing on a field and they would be over hitting dummies and throwing the ball around and chasing each other around. And then every once in a while I be in the secondary and all at once the ball would come over my shoulder and start rolling toward where the two teams were practicing. And who in the hell is that kid? Who is that Arbo? Is that your kid again? And I looked her eyes and please, dear God, don't let it be one of my. And sure enough, about 95% of the times it was one of my kids. And then after practice we could go home. Then the film we filmed our practices and then they had to develop it so we could run home for dinner for about 45 minutes or so. So I would tell the kids to wait for me and I would come out and I would hear help, help. I go help. What sounds like what? So I'd go into the locker room and the players would have locked John, Jim and some of the other kids in a locker and disappeared. So we had or didn't one time didn't they tape you to the, to the goal post?
- [27:49]
C
1 times John stay big involved as well.
- [27:53]
D
So, so anyway our, so our kids thank the BO and all those other coaches on the line always allowed our, our kids to come out to practice and enjoy the other kids on the. And, and our players. Now they'll come back for a reunion and they'll talk about how they really among themselves. You know, we're going to get those Harbaugh kids, we're going to do this or do that. So it was all, all well approached and received by them.
- [28:23]
A
John, tell us, tell us what that felt like. How much of it was living in the moment? How much of it was aspirational to be like those players wearing the M. And how much of it did you have a sense of what you'd be doing now?
- [28:35]
C
Probably no, no sense of it. But just like we thought we were the. We thought. I mean, no, just. I'm sure there were, there were dads that were doctors and lawyers and ran companies and lived in big houses, you know, and all that. They were. We looked down on those kids. You know, their dad wasn't a coach, their family wasn't a coaching family. They didn't get to go to practice at Michigan and get taped to the goal post. I mean what kind of life was that for a kid? You know, we, nobody had, literally nobody had it better than us, which our dad reminded us and still does to this day. That's how we kind of looked at it. Man, this is the greatest thing going as far as. For me like I pretty much, I was like going to go the other way. Jim said, he always said he was going to coach. I was going to do something else I was going to do, I was going to go to law school and do things like that. Kind of your path, you know. And then, and then the dad got me to Western Western Michigan. I was in grad school there. I was just the 21 out of college. And I don't know if he had this plan or not, dad, but the running back coach didn't have a running back coach all of a sudden. I never played running back a day in my life. I was a wing back in high school. Does that count? So dad says, well, I don't have a coach, a running back coach. You're in school here. He goes, you come cheap. You live with me already. Why don't you coach the running backs? I'm like, dad, I don't know anything about running backs. He goes, just do what the coaches tell you to do. They'll teach you everything you need to know and you do it for me. I need help. So I did it. And we had great staff. Dan Farinho, Greg Madison, Brady Hoke, Lou West. I mean we had this all star staffer coaches and took me about, about a month and I'm like, it was like, oh, this is what I'm doing. Forget the other stuff. I'm a coach for our listeners.
- [30:20]
A
I'm ugly. So we don't, we don't broadcast our, our. This is audio only. My mom's joke is Ben has a face for radio. I wish our listeners could see Coach Jackson face as John tells the story that within a month he knew this was his future. Jack is grinning ear to ear. It's like teeth are going to pop all the way into his ears. Jack, tell us, tell us the joy you feel knowing that you connived that he was going to be a running backs coach to a future coach.
- [30:47]
D
Well, the, I've always thought he could be whatever he wants to be. He could be, he could be whatever he wants, whatever he chooses to do. And he's does it at a high level. So it wasn't any question. He was Going to be successful. But Jackie wife always thought that John was going to be a lawyer. I mean, she looked at him as being a lawyer and then possibly politics. And I swear to God, Jackie at some point in time said, I think he might be a president of the United. I'm just. Oh, mom say, yeah, might have been the case. But. So John's in Miami and he comes home. Jackie hates this story, but it's true. He came home. We're sitting around the dinner table and Jackie says to John, well, what law school is it going to be? And John said, well, possibility. And, you know, I'm in political science, but I think I want to make a. I take a shot at football. And we had mashed potatoes.
- [31:40]
C
Mom denies this part of it. Just so you know, listeners. Mom did not.
- [31:45]
D
You got to trust me on this when I know I've been wrong on some other things. But she went face first into the mashed potatoes.
- [31:53]
C
No, I'm standing up for mama that one. I don't think it happened. Not quite that way.
- [31:59]
D
Here's the deal. He'll. We'll have him. He's a grad. He's in the school here. He's getting his master's degree and let me, Let me have a crack at him. So he was our running backs coach, and then I think he became on the defense. Moved you over to defense, didn't we, the next year, John?
- [32:16]
C
Yeah, two years on defense.
- [32:17]
D
Yeah. And then, then you went off to the University of Pittsburgh. But that's kind of how that whole thing. And I'm staying with the story. No one's going to change it.
- [32:26]
A
Well, you're a national championship coach soon after that, so we want you to continue. So you go Western Michigan to Western Kentucky, if I remember, and you get your boys involved in recruiting.
- [32:36]
D
Right.
- [32:36]
A
Tell us that story that, that story.
- [32:39]
D
I was fired at Western Michigan and
- [32:42]
A
I was going to pass over that, sir.
- [32:44]
D
No, no, not at all. Because it was a turning point in my life where I found out exactly who I was. I was very vulnerable and realized it could happen to anyone. I better get. Get things in gear. I was there three years, and the president of the university called my athletic director and myself into his office and told him, told us that the board of regents had 5 to 4 vote to drop football, that they weren't going to have football at Western Kentucky next year. And he suggested that we not have spring practice because we would not be playing the schedule next year. And I asked him, I said, when's this come about? He said, well, it'll be the end of April. We're going to take a vote on it. I have the votes, so I suggest you not start spring practice. So we went over to the team and told him the deal. But the thing was there that we could get that maybe we could get that vote changed and we could still have football. So those that want to come out to practice, those that think we should continue football no matter what happens, raise your hand. Every guy raised his hand. Those who stay will be champions is a sign that we put out at that time. So we went out and practiced. At the end of April, they had a vote. One guy changed his vote five to four to keep football. They took two coaches away from us. They took half of our operating budget away from us and 13 scholarships away from us. But they told us we could have football. And I thought to myself, we have no chance with those. With that laid out for us. So I kind of really quit recruiting. And Jim came through. He was with the Bears at the time, and he lived in Orlando, Florida. He said, dad, what are you doing here? I said, we have no chance. This is not like you. For crying out loud, get off the chair and get to recruiting. And he said, how can I help? I said, I don't know how you could help. You're employed by the Bears. He said, well, I'm not employed by the Bears right now. And you lost two coaches. What if I became one of your assistant coaches without pay? I'll get on the road and recruit. And John's at Cincinnati, and he's down recruiting in Florida, and he and I will put our heads together, and we're going to go down to Florida and we're going to recruit and get this thing going. What do you think about that? And I said, well, we got to take a test. You got to take a coach's recruiting test, for crying out loud. I'm a graduate of the University of Michigan, and it's open book test. He said, I don't know how I could possibly screw that. He took the test, no money, signed a contract. And he comes in, he says, okay, where do we start? I said, well, I got this list of recruits in Florida, Orlando, Tampa. And he was living in Orlando. So he took the list. And the first name was a guy named Willie Tiger. He was a quarterback in. In the Tampa area. And Jim called him on the telephone and told him he was Jim Harbaugh. And. And he said, you know Jim Harbaugh, he's the only one I know plays for the Chicago Bears. He said, well, that's me. I'm here at Western. I'm coaching with my dad. On Tuesday, I'm going to be down to talk to you about coming to, coming to Western Kentucky. So Willie said he didn't tell anybody, none of his classmates, no one, because he thought one of his friends that were pulling a trick on him. Tuesday at lunchtime, principal comes down and with Jim and tells him that he's here to talk to him about coming to Western. So Willie came to Western, played first for four years, turned the program around. Rush, quarterback, running the triple, the old wishbone, the wishbone offense that they were running in Texas at the time. A thousand. A thousand. A thousand in three years. And then one year he had nine, nine, nine. And he asked me to this day, couldn't you had me run a quarterback speech so I could have had it for four years? I said, at that time I had no idea how many yards you have. So. So anyway, Willie came and then John, he went through Ford and he had all these players that he was recruiting.
- [36:52]
C
Hey, I gave Willie's name. I gave. Willie was the first name I gave.
- [36:55]
D
Yeah, you gave him the name. That's how we all got started. But John and Jim saved our program at Western Kentucky. And there would not have been a national championship in 2002 without those two guys. John brought four guys from Ray Lewis School down in Lakeland, Kathleen High School, and we had all got, we got all three of those players. A defensive end, a wide receiver and maybe running back, if I remember.
- [37:26]
C
Well, you got, Remember Mary also got from Lakeland High School, Rod Smart, who played in the NFL, whose nickname was He Hate Me. Rod Smart. He's a great guy. And he was another one from that class, remember?
- [37:39]
D
I forgot about that. But you're exactly right. And you're the one that put him on the ride. And there was a, another running back that was on that team, but. But he didn't stay in school at Western. But whenever they do that, what was it, the XFL or something like that? John xfl?
- [37:54]
C
Yes.
- [37:54]
D
Remember that XL for one year?
- [37:56]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:57]
D
He was the signature of that. On the back of his jersey he wrote He Hate Me. You could put anything on the back of the jersey that you wanted. And when they show that 30, 30 of the XFL, it's. It's Rod Smart who was recruited by John Harbaugh and Jim Harbaugh. That, that was the signature of that, that particular league.
- [38:21]
C
And the crazy thing is. And after that season, Andy Reid fell in love with Rod Smart with the Eagles. And I was a special teams coach. He's like, what do you know about this guy? I said, I know everything about this guy. So we brought him to Philly and he has a great year or two playing. He was a third back playing special teams behind Brian Westbrook. Then he gets a big contract and goes to the Panthers and finishes career with Carolina Panthers. Right.
- [38:45]
D
And they went to the super bowl that year, didn't they? When he was down there, I think he had a return for a touchdown and. And a great, great special teams player.
- [38:57]
A
John, tell us about your sense of coaching tree during this time and how often today when you're on the sidelines, do you think. I think I know what I want to do here because I grew up under dad versus you were off on your own path now as well. And I mean, I think about Belichick saying, because his dad had tenure as a PE coach at the Naval Academy, every time a head coach would turn over, his dad wouldn't, you know, have to leave because he still had a job at the Naval Academy. So we got to see all these different coaching styles. To what degree do you think your career has these dual tracks of what you were doing and then dad coaching at different institutions at the same time?
- [39:36]
C
Great question, Ben. I'd say 100 of it. Everything. You know, it's. You learn as you go, but you're kind of a product of your experiences and the people you've been around. Just.
- [39:47]
D
I mean, I just.
- [39:48]
C
Sometimes it's just. It's luck or I would say, really, actually, it's. It's. It's favor. The fact that the people that you're around starts with, we were in the basement with a 16 millimeter when dad was breaking down film the old way with the cards and everything. And everybody talks about analytics now and how analytics and the computer and all these amazing things they do with AI and everything, and it's really just a. It's. Now it's amazing and it's way more information. But what the coaches were doing in the 70s and my dad was doing in the basement with the little cards and the pins and the punctures and the way they used to organize all the information by hand. It's the same thing. It's the same process. It's still analytics. It was analytics then, it's analytics now. Just like everything's changed. But I just think that's. It's just you're a product of all those things that kind of stays with you. You couldn't even you couldn't even say how much. It just becomes part of your.
- [40:40]
D
Of your. Of your.
- [40:41]
C
Of your. Who you are, you know, it becomes part of who you. Who you are.
- [40:45]
A
Jack, let's go to the Harbaugh Bowl. At what point, as a dad, are you just a dad who loves your kids and is a fan and is crossing your fingers? And at what point are you still a dad having to mediate? Ravens 49ers.
- [41:02]
D
Did that.
- [41:03]
A
Did that feel great having both boys in the super bowl, or did it feel half crappy?
- [41:09]
D
It was a fantastic experience. The year before the super bowl, both John and Jim were in the playoffs, the AFL playoffs, and the nf, the American Division, in the National Division. They were both there, and both of them lost in that game. So neither one of them that went that game. And then we were in our basement in Milwaukee. We watched the. The first game, it was Jim down in Atlanta. And the last play of the game, Atlanta was going in for a score, and the linebacker made a play. And then the 49ers are going to the Super Bowl. Now we go to the second game. We're down there by ourselves. No one. No phone ringing or anything like that. And now it's John playing the Patriots. And they get ahead at halftime. And then about the middle of the third quarter, they score again, and they go up by, like, 14 points. And I get a phone call, and it's. Jim goes, dad, I'm on the bus. We're headed to the. We're headed to the airport, headed back to San Francisco. What's it look like? I said, john, looks like we're going to the Super Bowl. Both of you are going to be playing in that. In that Super Bowl. And he was so excited, excited about that. And then the game was over, and we're just sitting there by ourselves and. And I looked over to Jackie, and I got tears coming down my face. I mean, I'm just actually crying. And she goes, what's wrong? And I said, you know, the only thing I can think about right now is your parents. And my parents, my dad and mom came out of the depression area. Jackie's mom and dad came out of the depression area. Jackie's dad went through school, a trade school. Mom dropped out of school when she was a freshman in high school. My mom and dad were just trying to survive. It was a survival mode. We were in depression. And then. And then the war and all that, and. And what they went through during that period of time, and they couldn't. My mom and dad were not there to enjoy that moment. And Jackie's mom was not there, but Jackie's dad was there. He was 96 years old. Wow. He came to New Orleans and he enter stage. There's a picture of him on the podium. John and Jim had done a press conference. There must have been 200, 250 people there for the press conference. And John and Jim asked that Jackie and I come up to the podium. And we walked up to the podium and Jackie turned around and she says, dad, come with us. And he walked up onto the podium and there was Jackie's dad. He was about 5ft 4, Italian, was an immigrant, came to this country when he was 6 years old, back in, around World War I. He's standing in the middle. I'm on the one side of him, Jackie's on the other side, Jim's on one side, and John's on the other side. And tell this, John. He had a smile on his face that would have lit up all of Italy at that particular moment by saying
- [44:17]
C
what an honor it is for both of us to be here with each other. No question about it. What a, what a very exciting moment it is. But even more than that, for our families to be here, for our mom and dad sitting right over there, Jack and Jackie, and For Grandpa Joe, 97 years years old and going strong. Grandpa Josepiti.
- [44:40]
D
And so my, my thoughts were with, with them and, and, and where we, where we've been and, and the joy that we had in, in being. Having a chance to experience that outstanding thing.
- [44:53]
A
John, what was it, what was it like to see your dad in that moment but still have to be fighting your brother? I mean, this isn't a wrestling match underwater, but it was still a. It was a rock fight.
- [45:04]
D
Yeah, it was.
- [45:04]
C
It was a tough game. You know, just even the whole week of the weeks going in, put it in perspective. It was, it was incredible, wonderful, amazing, awesome. It was also incredibly challenging and tough. I remember I saw a quote that they asked Jim, you know, what about you? What about, you know, coaching against your brother on Sunday? How's that going to be? And he goes, on Sunday. He goes, he goes, he goes. My brothers will be on our sideline. Those would be my brothers on Sunday. And we're going in to win the super bowl. And that's how we're approaching it. And it kind of sobered me up a little bit. Oh, okay, that's a good point. And he's right. He's exactly right. And that's how it was for that game. But as soon as the game was over, and it was crazy. I mean, you come out. I mean, the blackout and the comeback and all the different things that happened in the game as soon as the game was over, like, you know, you had the. The moment you dream of, you know, your whole career. Super bowl win. I can take a. Bill Parcell is getting carried off the field, or Jimmy Johnson, you know, at the Gatorade shower and all these things. You know, what's that moment going to be like? And as soon as we.
- [46:07]
D
We.
- [46:08]
C
We kicked off after taking a safety and. And made the tackle and everybody starts celebrating, I look around like, you know, who's going to carry me off? You know, where's my Gatorade shower? And nobody was just like, 15 yards of me. Like, nobody came close to me. You know, it's like you all kind of stay just. But they. And I. I could see it. I could almost feel like, now, you got to go talk to your brother, Buddy. He's coming across the field. You got to go.
- [46:31]
D
The Baltimore Ravens, our Super bowl champion. Congratulations.
- [46:38]
C
You, too. Good job.
- [46:39]
D
Proud of you.
- [46:41]
C
And right away, it's like, I looked over. I. I just felt. I felt for him, you know, probably as much or more. And. And that. That handshake was. Was a great handshake, but it was a tough handshake. And then soon after that, mom and dad were right there, and they were happy. They were thrilled. They were excited. It couldn't have been more happy for, you know, me and our family and our team and Ingrid and Allison and everything like that. And yet, at the same time, I could see it. I could read it in their faces. They were. You know. You know, they felt, like you said, half and half. They felt exactly the other half of the way. And finally they said, all right. They said, we gotta. We gotta. We gotta go. You know, this is. You know, we're gonna take the bus back with. With Jim. We gotta be with Jim going back. And I. You know, just. It seemed like exactly the right thing for them to do at that time as well.
- [47:33]
A
I feel like you should have said to him, jim, you gotta walk home. Dad said so. Little League rule.
- [47:37]
D
What? Bicycle in the trunk.
- [47:40]
A
Where the hell's your bike, Jim? Let's. Let's close by going back to character formation. Jack, it's sort of a legend. And John said it earlier that you say, who's got it better than us? Who's got it better than we do. It feels like gratitude is a foundation for how you raised your kids and how you all think about Grandkids. Each of you tell us a little bit about what you've learned as coaches that affects how you raise your kids.
- [48:07]
D
Well, for me, that it goes back to those days in Crestline, Ohio, when I was 11, 12 years old. We didn't have little leagues. We didn't have all those different things they have now. All we had was a sandlot. We had about six or seven. Gates Brown, one of our sandlot guys, played 13 years with the Detroit Tigers. A pinch hitter, 68 World Series. He was in that game, 84 World Series with the Tigers. He was a hitting coach. He was on our sandlot. Guy named Dave Smith, who was a sports editor for the Dallas Morning News, never went to college, but he. He won the Sporting News award, Sporting News award, editor in the Dallas Morning News, being the best in the country. And he was on our sandlot. Mike Gottfried, who coached at the University of Pittsburgh and was ESPN broadcaster, he was out there. And no, in those days, there was no keys to your house. There was. You knew where the keys to your car were because they were in the keys. They were in the car. You didn't want to lose them. And no one had keys. We had great neighborhoods, and we used to. At breaks, we played baseball or basketball or something all day long. Every once in a while, we took a break, all of us in that group, and we'd look around and we came up with this, hey, look at us. Who's got it better than us? And there were a lot of people around the world, I'm sure, had it better than us, but no one had it better us when we were growing up and, and, and. And being part of that. That community and learning lessons the hard way and sacrificing and watching your parents struggle and. And work through all that thing. So whenever I say that, I, I kind of go back to that. No matter what your situation is, no matter where you are, no one has it better at that moment. If you choose to make it the best moment that you ever have, John,
- [50:07]
C
you know, I said such a truth, but flipping it maybe is what I learned from parenting that made me a better coach. Allison played all the sports, and she ended up playing lacrosse in college and at a high level. And I would, you know, be a part of that. You know, we'd play. I mean, yeah, softball. She cracked me in the elbow, and dad saw that when I. I wanted to get your swing the right way, so I put my elbow up, swing
- [50:33]
D
under this, and she hit me right
- [50:34]
C
on the tip of the elbow. And dad, dad, Just was right there. And he just, like, turned and walked away and went upstairs. And I just, like, what a. I just like, I. I'm so stupid.
- [50:44]
D
I can't believe I did that, you
- [50:46]
C
know, and she was just trying to swing the white Ray. But. But watching coaches coach her through the years and how it made me feel as a parent changed me as a coach. So I just. It made me. It put me in the shoes of more of the family, you know, and that player is going to. How practice went or what the coach said to the player. I would ask her all the time, what coach say, how'd you do? How many goals did you score? Did you. Did you go? What happened? What'd the coach say? What are you. Are you with the starters? Are you the. You know, and she wouldn't tell me, you know. Ah, dad, come on, dad. You know, or she would. She'd try to tell me, but I really watched the coaches and the way the coaches. I really appreciated the way they treated her and coached her and wanted her to be better. I was so grateful. It meant so much because the coach has such a huge impact, such a huge impact on our kids like coaches have. Billy Graham said, coaches have more impact on our kids than anybody does in their whole lifetime, probably. And they remember for the rest of their life. We. We started the Harbaugh Coaching Academy because of Jack Harbaugh, and it's built around his beliefs as a coach. And we've done interviews with. We've got over 500 interviews with coaches and business people. And I got to get you on there, Ben. We got to get you on there to talk about this, because helping coaches be better is huge for the welfare of our kids. And not all coaches really, like I did in that one time. You just learn so much. You see your mistakes. How can we help coaches have a positive impact for good on our young people who play these games, give them things that they will remember fondly for the rest of their lives. It made me a better coach through my daughter and watching how she was coached coming up through the years.
- [52:25]
D
Well, one quick thing, what John's talking about is I had a coach at Bowling Green. His name was Dute Perry, and he had a lot of great things. But the one he used to tell us is we had a football class. Coaching and teaching were synonymous. Coaching and teaching were synonymous. At that point in time, to be honest, I really didn't know what synonymous meant. But over the years, I picked it up and I've grasped it. And then over the years, with Jackie and myself, we added parenting to that. Coaching, teaching, and parenting are all on the same line. The lessons you learn as a coach, you take home to your parenting. The things you learn in parenting about your kids and what they're going through in their life, you bring to your team, and they're interchangeable. I used to open every meeting I ever coached as a head coach. When I met the team for the first time, I would start out with this story. I'd say, guys, we have, what, 115 guys here? Isn't that great? I said, I want to tell you a quick story. I got two sons. They're born of the same mother and father. They eat the same food. They live in the same room. They have the conflicts that you're going to have. But you know what? They're a little bit different. Each one of them are a little bit different. So if you imagine those being a little bit different and you take 115 or here are a little bit different, don't be. You don't expect to be treated alike. You're going to be treated fairly, and it's. So. It's going to be a little bit different. So don't get bent out of shape about that. Just understand that no two individuals, whether they're children or whether they're players that are here for the first time, you're going to be treated fairly with an open door. That was the conversation we had in that first meeting.
- [54:17]
A
I said we were closing, but I got to go one more. Jack, you and I met outside a Nebraska Michigan game in Ann arbor and maybe 2013, and you were talking about how you bought a house next door to some of the grandkids. And I think about the way you said you had two families and you called your wife the head coach of the home, the home game. And you said that you wanted the grandkids to be able to walk through the backyard and come over into your backyard. And you've obviously taken seriously not just John and. And Jim and Joni, but also all your grandkids. What are those lessons? How have they changed as you aged? When you thought about the connection between caring for the whole person, telling them you're going to form their character, and you're not going to coach the stats, you're coaching the players. But when you add two or three decades on this Father's Day, what. What's the wisdom of. Of Grandpa Harbaugh that's different than dad Harbaugh?
- [55:15]
D
What I come out with, I try to come out with a few nuggets here and there, but I don't do anything that's expensive. I want to be. I want to be loved. I want to be liked. And I don't want to be too, too strict with them, but every once in a while now they're driving cars and we're riding around a different game. Although they. They moved to California on me, we. We did share a backyard during those days that you're talking about. And so I love the part where I can be just me. I can have fun and laugh and tell stories and get them laughing and play a little catch, play a little wiffle ball, do all those great things, and then at some point in time, time to go home.
- [56:00]
A
John, I think your dad just said that he's gone soft. Back in the day, we knew that parents are supposed to be loved and respected, but we don't try to be liked. Is he spoiling your kids?
- [56:10]
C
Well, Ben, all I know is he tells every one of his grandkids, each separately and, and, and, and, and in confidence, he makes sure they understand that. That they are the favorite grandkid, that he's their favorite, every single one of them.
- [56:23]
D
And then I add, don't tell that to anyone else, man. Thank you.
- [56:28]
A
Thank you.
- [56:29]
C
Thanks, Ben, for doing this. This has been so much fun. Been awesome.
- [56:32]
A
Happy, happy Father's Day, man. Really appreciate this time.
- [56:36]
C
Happy Father's Day. We appreciate you. Thanks.
- [56:40]
D
What a great joy it is for me to be with you. And I listened to your interview the other day, the one that you talked about changes and things that happen in our government. I want you to tell I support you 100%. You're spot on. Keep coming forward, keep bringing it, Ben.
- [56:59]
A
Thanks, guys. Really appreciate you both. And for today, at least, Go Giants.
- [57:04]
C
Good job. Thanks. See you.
- [57:08]
B
Well, Professor, I gotta say, normally this is where I ask you what we learned today, but I'm gonna flip it around because. Because I. I've just heard it and, and taken my part from it. And I have to say, the. Who has it better than us? Nobody.
- [57:27]
A
It's.
- [57:29]
B
I have been accused in my life of having toxic optimism.
- [57:33]
A
Congrats.
- [57:34]
B
And like, I guess, you know, I thought so much in listening to that, about the mythology of a family and how the stories that we tell ourselves, about us, what we do, what we're like in our family, but also the lore of the people who came before us. There isn't particular status in being a stirewalt. They were in this country for a couple hundred years before anybody had a pot to mixture it in. Or a window to throw it out of.
- [58:06]
A
To what in.
- [58:07]
B
Well, we're keeping it clean. We're keeping it a fam. This is a family podcast here, this Father's Day.
- [58:11]
A
That's an Appalachian term for pee.
- [58:13]
B
No, it's a scientific term, Ben. So it's to micturate. To micturate. To make water. But telling the stories about who we are and what we're like, it's not status. It's about belonging to something. It's about your identity as a person in that space and the finest, highest aspirations that it can be. And I really. I really enjoyed listening to. I mean, listening to the way that John talked to his dad and about his dad and the easy repartee and the gentle correction and the loving nature between them. You know, you could tell the story of the Harbaugh's upbringing if you wanted to. Making children walk home from games in a pretty dire way. Right. You could be like, you could do a great Santini story about that. But that's obviously not where John Harbaugh. That's not the story he's telling himself. He's telling himself a story about love.
- [59:16]
C
Yeah.
- [59:16]
A
Oh, well done. I mean, I. I was going to start with some sort of joke about how it was weird to have to ask people questions on my own and them not be under oath because we. We missed not having you there. But I do think the affection on Father's Day of John for Jack was pretty special, given the bloody seepage on my face. There's a reason we don't do video on these, but I wish people could have seen the eye contact that John and I had every time Jack would get going on a riff because you realized he wasn't going to stop. And John jokingly sort of wondered if he should be chaperoning the conversation. And then he'd be like, ah, hell no. My dad's way better than what I got to say. And there was a. A sense of family lore as who we are, as received, inherited identity, and therefore what we do. The indicative before the imperative. Who. Who are we under grace now? Go and live like it. Not. What do I got to go do to earn it?
- [60:14]
B
What. What shall we do?
- [60:15]
D
How.
- [60:16]
B
How shall we live today if we are like this? Yes.
- [60:18]
D
Yeah.
- [60:19]
A
And I've. I've got some friends that this family, the McNulties, that when my wife and I were newly married, maybe two or three years into marriage, they always talked about team McNulty. Team McNulty. Team McNulty. And it was doing exactly that there was a sort of gentle way to correct their kids. That wasn't. You screwed up. Don't be like that. Because you might not be accepted.
- [60:41]
B
It is.
- [60:42]
A
You are accepted now. Therefore, how do we act in this family? It's better than what you just did. You know better than that. Let's all do it the right way.
- [60:48]
B
As I, as I told my, my children are old now to be corrected much. But when they were little I used to say, that's not how we do that. That's not how we do that.
- [61:00]
A
People need stories. Families need to define themselves with those stories. It was fun to hear their family tell stories to each other and let us listen in.
- [61:07]
B
So I have two questions for you and I'm going to do them out of order. One is about when I listened to this. The other thing that I felt was I really miss what College football. I miss loving college football. And you guys talked about Don Nealon, Dandy Don, who was the head coach at WVU for years. And I felt guilt listening because I was one of those people toward the end of Don Nealon's career that said we got to get this guy out of here. He's old fashioned. It's off tackle left, off tackle left. We gotta, we gotta be more dynamic. He's out of, he's out of touch. We gotta get this run and gun. Blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And pretty much everything since then for WVU has been bad, right? There were, even the good years were bad years because of character, logical deficiencies. And the game has changed so much and it just, it isn't, it isn't that game anymore. And you can probably still find it in D2, you can find it in D3, but the big time game is not that game anymore. I want to ask you as somebody who was in charge of an institution that had a super big time college football program, I'm not going to ask you to dive deep on this, but I just want you to tell me, like diagnose college football.
- [62:34]
A
First off, as a fan of Dana Holgerson, I will not allow you to use Rich Rodriguez taint on everybody Post Don. Neela, hands off my buddy Dana.
- [62:50]
D
I.
- [62:52]
A
Obviously, when the Supreme Court rules 9 to 0 that an economic enterprise that runs to the billions of dollars a year, which college football does? We, we have two kinds of pro football. We have pro football for adult age people on Sundays and Thursdays and, and Monday nights. And we've got another kind of pro football on Saturdays. And surely there is something that's lost in that. But I, let's just set aside the nostalgia for a minute and let's talk about the characterological, characterological obligations on the coaches to raise, to help raise these young men. Some of what we got out of Harbaugh, brother or father, son, and if we'd had Jim as another brother, these coaches clearly do care about their players and the culture they're creating. It's that you can't do inherited identity as what we do as a family or as a team in 90 day increments. You need a, you need a handful of years, you need water over a rock. And when 50% of all Power Four conference players are transferring every year, when you only have a 50% return turn from 1December to the next August, something's really wrong and we gotta, we gotta clean this up and figure it out. But even short of that, the policy questions and the economic questions and the governance questions, you want there to be a space for coaches who take a long term view that these are souls that they're entrusted with stewarding and shepherding for a time. And I still think I know a lot of college football coaches and there are a lot of guys who do have that mentality. Unfortunately, we're going to grow the other kind really fast right now. Transactional guys who used to do college basketball one and done for a year at a time. We're going to have college football coaches that are rewarded for that kind of real short term stuff, not developing their young men. And we got to figure out a way to celebrate and honor and create more of the guys who are going to do a longer term thing that's adjacent to fatherhood and uncledom.
- [64:53]
B
Okay, so question 1A, 1B then is if you, well, you do have an adolescent son and I assume he plays football because you're a psycho and you love football.
- [65:06]
A
Yes, yes.
- [65:08]
B
So as the, as the fathers and mothers of today have teens who are in football, is this still something that you say, go for it, like aim high, do the best you can. You might make a bajillion dollar because the old bargain was, and you guys talked about this, the old bargain was maybe you'll make it big, but you're going to learn a lot and you're going to make these ally, you're going to make these friends. You're going to have this band of brothers that you'll be, you'll be tempered by fire with and that's going to serve you well in your life. Does that bargain still hold for the kids who are looking at that, well,
- [65:45]
A
set aside the little side phrase that you edited over about, you know, make a lot of money. You shouldn't be playing football as a 14 or a 16 or even an 18 or 20 year old and thinking it's going to be a paycheck.
- [65:56]
B
Right.
- [65:56]
A
I don't have the current numbers, but it's ballpark. One out of 300 high school kids get a play on Saturday and one out of 1500 college kids then get a play on Sunday. So that's that math is one in a million. And so you ought not be doing this to become a professional football player. You ought to do it because it is a band of brothers in simulated war that doesn't have you getting killed or having to kill, but you get the experience of really being a part of a team and a tribe. And so, you know the Kenny we referenced gently, the Kenny Chesney song, Boys of Fall. I'm not kidding. Like it comes on the radio, 75% chance I'm going to cry. I mean, and there's probably a 35% chance I'll just pull over on the shoulder and just stop everybody on their phones and we're all going to listen to it together and then we're going to cry together. So you're the worst.
- [66:49]
D
You're the worst.
- [66:51]
A
You probably also don't cry at the 4x4 relay at state track meet. The hell's wrong with your soul?
- [66:58]
B
I have a whole difference, as my family will attest. I have a whole different set of things that I cry to. And I promise you, Kenny Chesney is not one. But go ahead, go ahead. I wasn't going to bring it up. That's on you.
- [67:06]
A
There's a lot to cry about with Kenny. But that song, holy smokes. Call it in the air. Yes, sir. We want the ball. There are high school coaches all over America that are doing special things for kids who are missing a father figure. And those folks need to be celebrated and we need to give the right kind of reward structure to people making a long term investment multi year in kids and multi decades and becoming better coaches. And if college football becomes just transactional transfer portal always, it will obviously corrupt high school football and below as well. And so to your question, yes, today still pursue it not because of a paycheck, but because the culture of football still can be great and can grow your grit and your character. But we're on a trajectory that five or 10 years from now, football culture is kind of going to suck if we don't fix this.
- [68:04]
B
So you'd say be selective.
- [68:07]
A
Look for the coach.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah. Okay, so question two is Father's Day is a fake holiday. And very, very clearly, you had Mother's Day, a product of West Virginia, shout out, and then Father's Day.
- [68:25]
A
I didn't know Hallmark was founded in West Virginia.
- [68:27]
B
No, it was at a little Methodist church in Fairmont, West Virginia, if you must know. But, but Father's Day is pretty clearly like also the dads.
- [68:37]
A
Also.
- [68:37]
B
We got, I don't know, you get him, get him a tie or something. A, a, a sort of a, a lame, me too kind of holiday. But it. Listening to you guys talk raised this question in my mind, which is, if you want to be a good dad, you have to. And I've read your book. I listened to you guys talk. You got to go pretty hard, right? You got to go pretty hard, and you've got to set high standards, and you've got to be rigorous. What's your piece of advice for fathers today who have kids younger than our kids or who will be fathers one day soon? What is your advice to them about knowing where the line is between being a loving father who sets high standards and being somebody who is too hard? How do you balance. What is it that the truth without love becomes too hard and love without the truth becomes too soft? Tell. Tell our listeners something that you've learned about finding that balance as a father.
- [69:52]
A
Well, first of all, I don't, I don't want to answer a question like that without lots of qualifications that says, oh, look at the 75 ways I've screwed up. But let me also say I, you know, take fathering seriously because I was blessed to have a dad who was always going to show up. There was never a doubt that my dad was going to be there. So I think advice one is before you get to the grace versus performance stuff, because I don't think it's a versus, but it, it's show up. If you want to spend time with your little kids, you got to do it while they're little. And then you got to do it again. And you got to do it again because the clock's going to end soon and you're going to have to transition toward, you know, from, from commander to coach, coach to consultant. And then eventually, you're roughly peers with your kids at some point in life. And I think to your specific question, the issue is having them know the unconditional nature of your love. The love is unconditional. There's nothing they can do to lose it. And then Once you have it, then it goes back to the stuff you were saying about how we do it around here. Because you're loved, because you're accepted. These are then the ways that we act because of that. And we grid it out like you're not. I'm 5 11, 180 pounds. I was never going to be a great football player. It was a dream and it was still really important character formation, but I wasn't ultimately going to make it. That wasn't the point. It was the process of being on the team and grinding. So you, you understand that there's serious responsibility as an earthly father for how you shape their impressions of a heavenly father. And the grace comes first and the actions are gratitude in response. The actions are not an attempt to earn it. No 6 month old baby ever earns the free ride they're going to get. They get it because they were loved first.
- [71:43]
B
Yeah, I think a lot about my dad and here I will get choked up and I think about how I learned what a redeeming or ransoming kind of love was, which is, they will come after you, they will come for you. And a saying that I heard a long time ago is actually from the rector of my church, but it was from the speech that, that a partner at KKR gave when he quit and he said, an ethic without sacrifice is no ethic. A principle without sacrifice is no principle. And I guess what I would say is the thing that I have learned being a dad and being a son is leave it all on the field, man. They need to see you sacrifice for them, to be with them and to live out those virtues.
- [72:39]
A
Well, shoot, on a Father's Day thing, you go serious while I'm still talking football and I'm getting teared up about Kenny Chesney. And then you go to real stuff.
- [72:49]
B
I know, it's just the worst again, I'm just. These are just the journalist tricks that you didn't know when you were doing the interview that you could, you could have, you could have, you could have broken all kinds of news, you could have done all kinds of stuff with them. They were begging to break news and you were like, no, I just want to talk about the 5 4. You just. I want to. Let's get, let's get into the maximum
- [73:10]
A
violence, all four quarters, all three phases. You build your character in two. It is in August. Heat stroke is a myth. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then you go to what, Father's Day.
- [73:23]
C
Really?
- [73:23]
A
I mean, Father's Day. I got my problem with every Hallmark holiday but like Father's Day should be. Every single morning you're on your knees praying for your kids and then you go wake them up and you tell them you love them regardless whether they
- [73:36]
B
get out of bed.
- [73:36]
A
And then if they don't get out of bed real fast, you take the single mattress and you flip their butt out.
- [73:41]
B
That's right. That's the the air horn is a great technology.
- [73:45]
A
Happy Father's Day, amigo.
- [73:46]
B
Happy Father's Day to you. Let's go Mountaineers. That is it for this week's episode. We hope you'll like. Review and subscribe and tell a friend. Feel free to email us with your thoughts, corrections, questions or whatever else is on your mind. Write us@sassandrewmail.com this podcast was produced by Scott Emergett with the help of our colleagues at the American Enterprise Institute. This music is from Drew Holcomb in the Neighbors. Thanks for listening and keep living the good luck.
- [74:25]
C
Sa.