Not Just the Tudors: "Ballads of Magic & Mystery"

Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guests: Amy Jeffs (author and historian), Gwen Burns (artist, illustrator, musician), Natalie Bryce (musician and composer)
Release Date: October 16, 2025
Podcast by: History Hit

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the rich world of traditional ballads—songs that transmit stories of magic, myth, morality, and mystery from the medieval and early modern eras. Professor Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by Amy Jeffs, Gwen Burns, and Natalie Bryce to discuss how these ballads, featured in Amy Jeffs' new book Old Stories of Love and Death from Traditional Ballads, have carried multifaceted meanings: expressing emotion, conveying news, challenging societal norms, and providing both warning and inspiration. The discussion is interspersed with live performances of ballads, bringing to life the aural tradition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Power and Purpose of Ballads

• Personal and Societal Resonance:
  Professor Lipscomb opens by reflecting on how certain songs evoke deep emotional memories and even become anthems for social moments. She connects this to how ballads serve similar roles, crystallizing feelings, struggles, hopes, and the shared memory of times past.
  • “Songs do what spoken words alone often can’t do. They crystallise a feeling, a struggle or a hope. And they’re passed on. They’re sung anew and reshaped across generations.” (03:31)
• Ballads as Carriers of News and Morality:
  Historically, ballads were vehicles for sharing news, moral lessons, and encoded warnings, as well as sparking solidarity.

Defining the Ballad

• Structure and Characteristics:
  Amy Jeffs explains ballads tend to be quatrains (four-line verses) with an A-B-C-B rhyme scheme and always tell a story, varying in subject from epic tales to the supernatural. She references Francis James Child’s famous collection, which encompasses history, legend, and myth.
  • “They generally speaking follow an A, B, C, B rhyme pattern... and obviously it’s also essential that it tells a story of some kind…” (06:45)
• Distinction from Folk Songs:
  Gwen Burns points out that not all folk songs are ballads; ballads have a storytelling, epic quality and often numerous verses. (08:22)

Longevity and Transmission of Ballads

• Surviving Centuries:
  The earliest known English ballad dates back to a 13th-century manuscript, telling stories like that of Judas, blending biblical lore with local innovation.
  • “How narratives sort of transmitted through time and how into different forms. And so it ends up in this ballad text.” (09:11)
• Printed vs. Oral Tradition:
  The discussion explores how oral and manuscript traditions intersect, complicating the search for a “pure” oral tradition.
  • “We must guard against investing too heavily in our hope of a pure oral tradition.” (11:24)

Transformation and Adaptation

• Ballads Across Time and Place:
  Many ballads have variants spread across Britain and Europe, often morphing in form and meaning—sometimes becoming considerably more moralistic than their biblical or historical sources.
  • Example: The Cherry Tree Carol and Little Sir Hugh, originally from earlier religious traditions, survive as English ballads with new local inflections. (13:02)
  • “They seem to have come really obsessed with [cherries] as a kind of symbol of blessings and of the Virgin and the Virgin and Child.” (13:40)

Social Commentary and Gender

• Ballads as Mirrors of Social Anxiety:
  The group analyzes how ballads reflect fears and anxieties, especially around morality, infanticide, supernatural threats, and the need to uphold social order.
  • “I think that probably, in my opinion, would predominate over ‘oh, I’m terrified that this woman… is going to kill all her children’—I’m glad I’m behaving.” (19:15)
• Women in Ballads – Agency and Resilience:
  Contrary to expectations, many traditional ballads feature active, clever, and even rebellious female protagonists.
  • Example: Tam Lin — Janet, a pregnant woman, defies warnings and rescues her elfin lover.
    • “Strange for this ballad that could be 16th century or earlier, to have this woman who… just rocks up… and marches off.” (26:36)
  • Example: Lady Isabel and the Elfin Knight — Lady Isabel turns the tables on her would-be murderer with wit and cunning.
    • “The message is so intriguing… I think it’s an idea of freedom.” (45:47)
• Ballads as Covert Female Empowerment:
  Ballads could offer “another level” of female agency—a parallel imaginative world where women exercised symbolic power. Gwen quips:
  • “Maybe the women’s world kind of does the same thing [as Elfland], and they can think of these songs...” (33:43)
• Ballads and Witchcraft:
  Bessie Dunlop’s trial is discussed, illustrating how ballads intersect with actual accusations of encounters with the supernatural, and how these tales could become deadly serious.
  • “It’s not whimsy… it had serious consequences.” (34:45)

Performance, Memory, and Revival

• Music as Mnemonic:
  Natalie Bryce and Amy note the melodies and repeated poetic forms help embed these stories in memory, ensuring their survival.
  • “Melodies and the meter… are mnemonic devices… tools for these stories to survive and be passed on.” (20:56)
• Enduring Tradition:
  Ballads continue to be sung and passed on in folk revival circles, family traditions, and festivals.
  • “These are just songs that they… just sing.” (51:49)
• Contemporary Relevance:
  The guests stress how these age-old ballads still resonate, with universal themes of love, peril, hope, and joy.
  • “What’s so exciting about delving into these stories… is seeing how consistent we are as humans in the themes we delight in aesthetically…” (53:12)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Songs do what spoken words alone often can’t do. They crystallise a feeling, a struggle or a hope.”
  — Suzannah Lipscomb (03:41)

• “You want to say, God, isn’t this strange for this ballad that could be 16th century or earlier, to have this woman who… just rocks up… and marches off.”
  — Amy Jeffs on Janet in Tam Lin (26:36)

• “Unpleasant is the fairyland but an eerie tale to tell… at the end of seven years we pay her tithe to hell…”
  — Sung by Natalie Bryce (23:31) (Ballad performance – Tam Lin)

• “They absolutely are. And I’m struck by the fact that to get the full experience of your work, you know, we’re going to need both a physical copy to see Gwen’s beautiful illustrations and an audio version so that we can hear Natalie’s tunes.”
  — Professor Lipscomb (54:29)

Featured Song Performances

1. Tam Lin

   • [22:11–24:22] A ballad from the Scottish Borders about love, danger, and supernatural bargains, performed live by Natalie Bryce and the group.

2. Lady Isabel and the Elfin Knight

   • [38:44–40:38] A ballad in which a clever heroine evades death at the hands of a supernatural assailant, sung with haunting modal melody.

3. Personal Family Traditions

   • Gwen shares (44:54) her version of a related ballad, May Colvin, sung to her daughters.

Important Timestamps

• 03:41 — Songs as emotional and societal markers (Lipscomb)
• 06:45 — Defining the structure and storytelling essence of ballads (Amy Jeffs)
• 09:11–13:02 — Ballad longevity and examples through centuries (Jeffs)
• 16:28–19:15 — Geographical and moral adaptation, punitive elements
• 20:56 — Ballads as mnemonic/storytelling devices (Jeffs and Bryce)
• 22:11 — Performance: Tam Lin (Bryce)
• 23:31 — “Unpleasant is the fairyland...” Tam Lin sung
• 24:42 — Lipscomb’s reaction to the shiver of historicity and enchantment
• 26:36–32:00 — Women’s agency and resistance in ballads (Jeffs, Burns)
• 34:45 — Witchcraft, supernatural, and their deadly real-world consequences
• 38:44 — Performance: Lady Isabel and the Elfin Knight (Bryce)
• 44:54 — Family traditions and adaptation by Gwen Burns
• 51:49–53:12 — Living tradition; relevance for today
• 54:47–56:10 — Collaboration and the lived experience behind the new book

Tone and Style

The conversation balances scholarly analysis and storytelling with warmth, humor, and an almost tangible sense of musical enchantment. Performances are met with delight and emotional resonance by host and guests alike.

Conclusion

This episode brings to life the history, meanings, and continuing resonance of magical, mysterious ballads. Through historical analysis, personal anecdotes, and live musical performances, listeners are given a window into not just what these songs conveyed in the past, but how they continue to inspire, warn, and unite us—reminding us of the power of shared human creativity and the enduring magic of music.

Guests:

• Amy Jeffs (Author: Old Stories of Love and Death from Traditional Ballads)
• Gwen Burns (Illustrator and musician, folk singer)
• Natalie Bryce (Composer and performer)

Host:

• Professor Suzannah Lipscomb

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