Lawrence Bergreen (4:39)

Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (4:41)

Wonderful stories to be told and, you know, deep and important things to talk about. So let's start where everybody knows. 1492, the moment of quote unquote discovery. What was the first interaction between Columbus and his fellow Europeans and the native peoples like?

Lawrence Bergreen (5:03)

It was very cautious. It was not a harbinger of the disasters and tragedies and mistrust that eventually came along. That also you have to wonder, did he know where he was? And we know he, we think he was somewhere in the Caribbean. We now have a better idea. And he had some advantages because his brother Bartholomew, who played an important role in this, was a cartographer. So Columbus was an experienced pilot and navigator. So this was more or less state of the art. However, the art was not that advanced and especially by our standards, was riddled with errors. The voyage, you know, was fairly quick and untroubled. There's some question about why did he actually go? He said he was going because he wanted to bring Christianity to the people he discovered there. But now it seems that he also had another mission, maybe less explicit, to plunder and bring back gold, bring back slaves, and was Much more commercially minded. Now, that was not unusual for that time. If Columbus hadn't made this voyage and there were others who did and tried before him or after, they would have gone for about the same reasons. It was a different mentality. Also, it did require, and you were really right to bring that up, a tremendous amount of courage, just plain guts, because once they sailed off into the Atlantic, they really didn't know what they would find. Many sailors and explorers sailed and were never heard from again. They disappeared in storms. They got lost. You know, some. Some vague records survive. So the odds of his succeeding on this first voyage, you know, were. Were rare and remote. And as you mentioned, it took him a long time to get authorization from Ferdinand, as we call him, and Isabella, which was very important and very necessary. He was also, and some people have said, impelled by a messianic complex. Well, what does that mean? It meant that, you know, in the simplest words, that God told him to do this. And at some points in these voyages, he mentions that he heard the voice of God, which makes him sound, you know, really out there and, you know, a little bit unusual. But in those days, a lot of people heard the voice of God, maybe even more than now. So it wasn't really that unusual to say God told me or I heard the voice of God. It didn't necessarily mean that they were, you know, losing it, so to speak. So Columbus was nothing if not determined to do this. So this was a, you know, great adventure. His first impressions were, you know, somewhat confused because he didn't know exactly where he was, he didn't know what he would find. And when he finally left and returned back to Spain, he had barely started, but he declared mission accomplished and wanted to talk about the great success that he'd already had. The success really was that he was lucky to have made it there and alive and return alive all in one piece and with a minimal loss of life. So that in itself was remarkable. I felt in writing the book the Four Voyages, you see an evolution in his goals and in the nature of exploring over these years that they took place. And also in Columbus's mentality, he became, well, at first more confident and better funded, and later on he seemed to have lost everything he gained. And it was rather poignant. Now, I should mention, against that background, especially here in the United States, there's no, for the past few years, been a shift in what people think of as Columbus. And he's often seen as a, I use the words advisedly, genocidal monster and best erased from the history books, monuments and flags have either been taken down. Columbus Day itself has become very controversial. If you grow up in the United States, Columbus Day is a, you know, seen as a major, major holiday. Now, many people would like to call it indigenous peoples holiday or something different to honor the fact that Columbus was hardly going off in the name of science to explore. So, in a sense, his reputation over time has reflected the politics of the moment in the United States, in Europe and elsewhere. So, you know, he's a chameleon in some sense, because what you think of when you say Columbus, you know, is changing. And coming up on the next Columbus Day, which will be in October, I'm not sure how he'll be observed, if at all. So, as I said, it's changing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (10:14)

Yes, it's so fascinating. And I hope that we're going to unpack a bit more of that as we go through. I wanted to just stay with that first moment of 1492 for a second longer and to talk about the sources we have, because one of the things I remember being struck by was that we've got his logbook of December 1492, and how he meets this dignified young native king and writes. And he and his tutor and counselors were very troubled because they did not understand me or I them. Nevertheless, I gathered that he told me if something from this place pleased me, that the whole island was at my command. And it immediately raises questions about how they communicated.

Lawrence Bergreen (10:57)

You know, that's a very good point. You know, what did either side think? A lot of what we know is a famous letter about the first voyage that he wrote on his return. And he wanted to trumpet his success and describe what it was like as he was aboard the Nina. You know, there were three ships, Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria, which was a Caravelle. And then he added some more information. It's not even sure now if Columbus wrote it or if it was written by a scribe or someone else in his name. Eventually, not long afterward, it was printed. And then there was a Latin translation that was distributed around Europe. So this greatly increased the fame. If it hadn't been printed, you know, we would know much, much less. But anyway, he used this to promote his efforts to make the most of it, to show himself in a good light. He was not aware at that time that he had, you know, taken, discovered a new continent. He thought that he was on the edge of the Indian Ocean. In other words, he thought he was in Asia. So the man who discovered, you know, United States or America didn't know it existed. And he was really under geographical illusions. Now, everybody was, when I say everybody, that was normal in Europe, so nobody else really knew any better. So he had the advantage of getting there first, but he was also hindered by his enormous geographical misconceptions. But some of what he did, despite the fact that he was misguided about where he was, were very. Was very useful. He talked about the, what he calls Indians, who were in fact the Arawaks, and described them, talked about how it's possible they might describe. Convert to Catholicism. And then he talked about another group there whom he called monsters. This was probably the Caribs, who were, well, partly myth and partly reality and a projection of European fears. Anyway, he was afraid that, you know, he might get caught and devoured by them. It's not really sure exactly what he believed, but you can get an idea of his mindset. Was. Was really was not a modern one and, you know, was, you know, he was really playing catch up, didn't understand what he was seeing. I mean, you know, as you know, the name Columbus is all over the United States map, on cities, on towns, the district of Columbus, capital, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He never knew that North America existed. And that's a separate story, how he came to be considered the discoverer of America.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (13:56)

Absolutely. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, who was he? Tell me about his upbringing and how it shaped his character.

Lawrence Bergreen (14:05)

Well, I think that was very important. That's a really good question. He was from Genoa and he was from the very young, young age, a pilot, and learned to explore, to navigate. By the age of 14, he was fairly competent and doing that. And he was not necessarily uneducated. He knew several languages and he was much more sophisticated than the average Genoese at that point. He was able to navigate, at least over the short terms. And when he was sailing, he was able to take advantage of the trade winds, which were something new to European minds, and to make the most of that. He's famous for having red hair. Well, that's possible. You know, it's difficult to prove that he didn't have red hair. And there are various images of Columbus and saying, this is the real Columbus, that's the real Columbus. And so how you separate the legend from the reality, it's not really clear. But having red hair was not unusual, but might have been taken as a mark of something. His first wife was named Filippa Perestrello, and she, her father, Bartholomew Perestrello, had been in the Portuguese Navy under Prince Henry the navigator, who was, as they say, a seminal figure. So Columbus educated himself about legends, about maps, about myths and about reality. So he was far more experienced than the average commercial navigator or fisherman at that time. But there are many things that he didn't know about and that he found out to his cost along the way. He spent years trying, trying to get a monarch to back his voyage. The first place he went, of course, was Portugal because of his family connection, and spent years in the court of Portugal and then King John, and after that, nothing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (16:16)

Why do you think that was? Why do you think he struggled to get funding for that first voyage?

Lawrence Bergreen (16:21)

King John was, he's known as a strange character. He was rather reclusive, fearful, paranoid, and many people thought that, well, he might have backed some other Portuguese voyages that we don't know about that were lost. But he was not able to get the backing. And I think he was aced out, if that's the word, by Bartholomew Diaz, who had managed to round the southern tip of South Africa, which is a major accomplishment. Okay, so then he went on to Ferdinand and Isabella and was able to obtain the permission in 1486. And they again thought that he was going to Asia. He did not think he was going to the New World or anything like it. And they didn't know how far Asia was. They thought it was much closer to Europe than it is. Their idea of a map would look very strange to us. So he thought he could get there fairly quickly. And he didn't really get a full commission. He got a kind of a keepsake of an annual salary to go for a while, you know, continue his project. But he waited and waited and waited. Finally, Isabella was the one who gave him the go ahead and gave him funding. But they really didn't know what they were getting into. They just wanted to be not left out, I think was the main idea. Columbus was able to negotiate a very, very favorable deal for himself. If he succeeded and went to India, which is where he thought he was going, he would be appointed the leader, the Viceroy of India. So again, nothing about America, and he would get the rank of the Admiral of the Ocean Sea. One of the best books about Columbus by the late historian Samuel Elliot Morrison has that title. So you could see there was a sense of a grandiose, almost messianic mission about it. And then in terms of the question of who was Columbus, it's pretty clear his origins. But some people argue now, long after the fact, that because of their interpreting clues in his writing, that he wasn't who we think he was. He might have been a converso, in other words, originally Jewish. But what's converted, it's possible. It's really not likely. They're kind of grasping at straw as they point to the fact that his mother's name was Susanna, which they took to be indicative in some way. But there's no question that Columbus was very devout and, you know, would not have agreed with that interpretation at all. So again, as I said, Columbus is a lot of Columbus is what, you know, we think he might have been and we don't really know, you know, if, if you were to meet Columbus and when I write books, I sometimes wonder what it would be like to, you know, meet, have lunch or whatever the subject I'm writing about. With Columbus, I think one would find somebody who was pretty gruff and impatient and possibly intelligent and quick witted. But there's something still kind of elusive and rebarbative about him. He was not warm and fuzzy. Let's put it that.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (21:23)

So we have this man who makes this first voyage on the basis of the funding he's got from the Spanish monarchs.

Lawrence Bergreen (21:30)

Right? Right.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (21:31)

How did he help ensure that he'd get backing for a second voyage?

Lawrence Bergreen (21:36)

Well, he bragged about what he was doing and he said, you know, this really means A second voyage isn't necessary to lock in what he'd started. And so he was able to do that and to build on it. That was, you know, that showed that he was very deft in doing that. And he promised to have a much larger, better funded, more elaborate. I call it a campaign in a way, but, you know, fleet. And this time he went with 17 ships for the second voyage. It was really different from the first time. And he went to establish permanent colonies wherever he thought he went. He even brought a physician with him, which was a very advanced thing to do, and at least had some idea of where he was going. And he stopped at the Canary Islands and then went to the now called the Windward Islands and wound up in the Virgin Islands. He sighted the island, the eastern coast of Puerto Rico, again, inhabited by what we would say, indigenous peoples. I don't know if that's a useful term, but there was a group there known as the Taino or Boracan. And he then went on to Haiti, what is now Haiti, where he had left 39 people on his first voyage. Part of the reason he said he wanted to go back was to rescue these people. And there was supposed to be a fort that they had built in his absence. But when he got back there, the fort was in ruins and the men had disappeared. It was said that they had been quarreling over the gold they found there and that they had taken women away. All of this is, you know, kind of open to questions, but for sure, something had gone wrong. And gold is winds up becoming more and more important. There was something mystical about gold, of course. It was a source of wealth. And as these voyages went on, gold as well as human capital, that is, slavery, became more apparent as, you know, what he was doing. There was a settlement there that was eradicated, did basically by disease. And when we say disease, that's a good question. What do we mean? Do we mean that there were viruses that Europeans were extremely vulnerable to? Often it was syphilis or a venereal disease. And for the same reason, there was no known cure for it. Men didn't know exactly what the effects would be. So they knew they were sick. But. But the why and the how we're still open to question. And as time has gone on, these questions have become very politicized. And so it doesn't bring us further from the truth, but it makes it perhaps a little more difficult to figure out what was going on. Keep in mind, we're talking about something that happened 500 years ago, and if it had happened 200 years ago during the Enlightenment, it would have been a really different story. We would have known a lot more. But we do have fortunately a number of first person documents written by Columbus and others who went along on the voyage or wrote accounts of others who did. So it was well documented. You know, that's in contrast to the Portuguese voyage. I had mentioned that King John Kinzhou was very secretive and any records like that, if they existed, were either were destroyed. So we just don't know. You know, we have to rely on those sources that we do have when.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (25:34)

It comes to the second voyage. We talked about the problems of communication on the first one. On the second voyage, what difference did it make to have translators? And also I'm really interested in the role that his brother Bartholomew Columbus played on that second voyage as well.

Lawrence Bergreen (25:51)

Bartholomew made it possible for Columbus to navigate in a more sophisticated way. You know, imagine if you were driving, you know, a long distance and you didn't have a map and there really wasn't anybody to stop and ask for questions. And you kind of had to go, you know, you can go by signs like, you know, east or west or the sun or something like that, but in many ways you really didn't know where to go. Barthalio helped to end that. However, this didn't mean that now that Columbus was more secure in what he was doing that he was going to be any kinder or efficient. He was going by again, conventional wisdom of the era, a system. Well, it's really a euphemism for slavery, comienda. And that meant that the conquerors received the were able to make and take advantage of conquered indigenous peoples. There was more to it than that. They were often punished and tortured, whippings, mutilation, cutting off noses and ears. And this is when Columbus began to. The more successful he got, the more of a reputation, a monstrous reputation that he became as well. Now, how many people suffered this way? Well, a lot, and it depends who you ask, but thousands. And Columbus would ask and demand, where is the gold? Where's the gold? He got no answer because they didn't know. And so often they were tortured. The probably the saddest part is that to escape this oppression, many committed suicide. Many of the indigenous peoples, they jumped off cliffs, they ate poisonous reeds. Some people have argued that they were doing that for a different reason, but that was not a normal occurrence to some of them. And again, it depends on how you see this. It's possible that according to their own and because they're pre literate we don't really know what their perception was that the appearance of Columbus fulfilled a prophecy of doom and the end of the world. And so they were reacting to that, and that might have been it. This really points up the importance of written records when you're relying on oral history. Well, it can be valuable, but it's nowhere near as good as some written accounts. That's why I keep thinking to study Columbus is kind of a litmus test of how you study history and how you learn history. Because it's so complicated. There are so many shifting facets and about Columbus's character, what did they do, how do we know it and what. In a sense, it's humbling because you wonder what little we know and how contested it's been over the centuries. Anyway, that also makes it really fascinating. On the second voyage, the Columbus collected about a thousand slaves and people he had made slaves and sent them back to Spain. That did not, as you can imagine, work out well. Many died along the way. They did not thrive in Spain. Quite the opposite. There were other slaves that other countries sending slaves basically from a different direction. But slaves in some ways were common in Europe at that point. But this was also another tragic example of Columbus being misguided about what he was doing. So if you're looking for reasons to take Columbus down, you know, some major notches, that would be a good one. So that was the second voyage and there's two more to go.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:46)

Do we have any sense about how he reacted to the mass suicide of the natives of Hispaniola?

Lawrence Bergreen (29:54)

Yes, he acted as if. How was this happening? He was bewildered. He didn't really see a direct connection between his behavior or the behavior of his men or crew to what was going on. So he was baffled by it. And that may have been wishful thinking, but that's what it was. He didn't exhibit extraordinary sympathy or pity.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (31:38)

And when he arrived back from that second voyage, he was in poor health. I was struck by the fact that his retinas were scorched from the long hours gazing at the sea. Why did he try and launch a third voyage?

Lawrence Bergreen (31:54)

Well, he kept going partly because of his kind of increasing messianic sense of determination. The scorched retinas were kind of a hazard of sailors of that era to. And even today it's really important when you're out on the water to wear sunglasses and protect your eyes. And so in a way, this was a mark of his determination. However, the third voyage was on a much smaller scale. He was better informed about how to navigate. By the way, he still didn't realize that North America existed. And there were only six ships. And he made a pretty rapid crossing of the Atlantic. And this time they arrived in Trinidad and the Caribbean islands. And keep in mind it only took about six weeks, if that, to make this crossing. And he went ashore and now in Venezuela, near the Orinoco. Well, this is again up for debate, but many people think this is the first time that, that Europeans arrived on the mainland of South America. At that time, Columbus began to think there might be a continent here, you know, not just some islands. Partly because it was so huge, partly because he heard about it from other people. And so he was slowly, you know, I compare this sometimes to, you know, there's an elephant, you're blindfolded, you put your hands on the elephant, you say, what is this? You know, and depending on where your hands are or how thoroughly you, you know, take accounts of it, you begin to realize this is a very large animal and what it's like. But if you just go past it or you just lightly, you know, touch it, you don't really know what it's like. So anyway, he was learning about the elephant, which was the American continent again, still did not suspect the existence of North America.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:55)

Was there a sense in which he felt that he was not being recognized as he should be? I mean, that he's sort of probably driven by self aggrandizement and Greed. But is there also a sense that he wants to exonerate himself? He wants to prove himself to his sovereigns?

Lawrence Bergreen (34:13)

Yes, for sure. I think that's typical of many explorers of that era that they had. They wanted the recognition for what they were doing. One of the few exceptions would be Marco Polo, who was not going on an organized mission, but was simply accompanying his father and uncle on their trade mission to China and Mongolia. But most of them at this point were going for green and glory. So therefore they tended to feel that they were being slighted, that it was never enough that they wanted to be recognized more and more for what they were doing. I think others were like that. Columbus was a particularly prominent example because, again, you know, we have writings, his own writings and accounts of what he was really like. And, you know, some of the stories about him really survived, you know, through the ages. There's one about that was reported that he punished a man who stole some corn and cut off his ears and nose and sold him into slavery. And that was a, you know, sounds very extreme. It was not necessarily extreme, you know, at that time, but that was the era that Columbus was living in. And, you know, people asked him, why were you doing that? And he would say, well, that was part of his orders or his mission, and that's the way it is. There was no way to stop it.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (35:48)

How did the sovereign's opinions of Columbus change whilst he's on that third voyage?

Lawrence Bergreen (35:55)

Well, at first they were impressed, and then gradually he was supplanted by other explorers in there, you know, and lost their good graces. They became more critical of him. He seemed to be an unguided missile, if you will, and was not the, you know, heroic figure that they hoped he would be. So by the time he got around to the fourth voyage, which was only 10 years after the first one, he really didn't have their blessing. He was really sailing on his own account. It was dramatically reduced in scope, and in a way, this gave him more freedom to do what he wanted to do. But some could argue that at this point that Columbus had gone mad, that he'd taken his leave of his senses and was off on his really sailing on his own account. And this voyage, in some ways, I find it the most interesting after the first voyage was the one where he washed up on the beach in Jamaica and spent six months, if not longer, with some of his men stranded there. This was really unusual. And the governor of that area, the Spanish governor, hated Columbus and prevented anybody from trying to rescue him. So the situation became worse and worse. He feared his men would be attacked and slaughtered by indigenous people. Finally they were rescued and they returned back to Spain. At that point, Columbus was a broken man and his reputation was in tatters. He had been surpassed by others. He was, you know, pretty much blind and his health was shattered. So there wasn't going to be a fifth voyage. Yeah, I just wanted to back up a little bit about the end of this four voyages, if you don't mind, and describe how he escaped. He thought he was going to starve to death with his men or would he killed by indigenous peoples. And so he had some astronomical charts that he brought with him and they were compiled by Abraham Zacuto, who was a well known astronomer at that point. They predicted a lunar eclipse on February 29, 1504. In other words, there was a month that was an extra day and a lunar eclipse would be unusual. So Columbus said that this was going to happen. And once the indigenous people saw the lunar eclipse, you know, the fact that it was as predicted, they decided that Columbus had supernatural powers and that they better not mess with him. And so they let him go. So that was, you know, at one time that he had a piece of good luck. Otherwise you could just say, you know, these voyages, you know, one piece of bad luck after another, despite his extraordinary efforts. Oh, and did he know where America was by this point? At the end of the fourth voyage? No.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:09)

And when he returned home just 19 days later, Queen Isabelle died. And Ferdinand just refuses to confirm his titles, his wealth, his privileges, everything that Columbus has felt he's worked for. Why is that?

Lawrence Bergreen (39:26)

I think Ferdinand and Isabella were not necessarily on the same page. And he trying to, you know, assert his rights and just did not succeed. And by then he was getting, you know, he was becoming really ill. You know, he died in 1506, so he wasn't able to do that. He was aced out by, you know, his imitators who came quickly after that, and he just had lost favor.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:58)

What then do you think we ought to make of Columbus and his four voyages? He seems to be one of the most sort of controversial men in history.

Lawrence Bergreen (40:08)

Yes, yeah, controversial, yes. As I said, his reputation is at the moment nearly at a low point in the United States and much of the world. 50 years ago, it was very different, or 100 years ago. However, we now know about his monstrous behavior or cruel behavior. We know about his courage and his navigational ability to do that. What I think is also extraordinary is the amount of observance or legends of Columbus that have Grown up posthumously, and that's worthy of a book in itself. And what happened to Columbus? How do we wind up having this reputation that he discovered America even though he didn't? All the statues, all the names, all the names that. Places that were named after him, the variety of misunderstandings, one piled on top of the other, is really extraordinary. There are probably other people like this as well, but maybe not as recent. Nevertheless, this man who never realized America existed, never set foot in America, has become, you know, the most influential or celebrated American of all time. And it's. It makes you wonder about people, about how we learn history, about the nature of explorers. You know, I don't really have a clear answer for that nowadays. If somebody explores something, you know, we know we can see we are there. We have different ways of verifying it. But with Columbus, it's, you know, all the way to the end. Even his remains were disputed. Where were they? Several of them were buried in different areas. Some of the New World, some of the Old World. Some regarded Columbus as a very important figure with a certain divine quality. Other people just considered him a monster. So it depends on where you're coming from. Of course. You know, we're talking from a European perspective. If you go to another part of the world, Columbus's importance diminishes. They have their own explorers and controversies and frames of reference. So much of it is shaped by what our own reality. You know, I think these debates will go on and on. People say, well, now they're going to find a definitive answer. With DNA, that doesn't always work. It's not as open and shut as it seems. And there are more books coming out about Columbus. You know, some offer new perspectives about him. Few have good things to say about him. I probably said more good things about him than, you know, the conventional wisdom of the moment. Although this had been 50 years ago. If you take, for example, Samuel Elliot Morrison's standard Admiral of the Ocean Sea biography, it was much more full of praise. Although he acknowledged Morrison was smart, he acknowledged the difficulties and limitations of Columbus. But, you know, there was a heroic sense to it. Books about Columbus that came out in the 19th 40s, during World War II and afterwards, tended to be very positive because there was a sort of triumphal sense about Columbus. And it will keep changing. That's all I can say.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:32)

It certainly will. And maybe that DNA will help us find that body. There's been so many resting spots claimed for him. Thank you so much for giving us a sense of his four voyages and the man himself. Lawrence Bergre, thank you for your time.

Lawrence Bergreen (43:47)

Thank you very much. Pleasure to talk with you.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:52)

Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher, Alice Smith and my producer, Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susannah Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit.

Holly Fry (44:16)

Our Skin Tells a Story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or are curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin, you'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.