Podcast Summary: "Cortés and the Aztecs" – Not Just the Tudors

Episode: Cortés and the Aztecs
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Host: Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Guest: Professor Camilla Townsend, Distinguished Professor of History at Rutgers University

I. Introduction

In this episode of Not Just the Tudors, hosted by Professor Susannah Lipscomb, the focus shifts from the familiar narratives of Tudor England to the dramatic and multifaceted story of Hernán Cortés and the Aztec Empire. Joining her is Professor Camilla Townsend, an esteemed historian specializing in Huatl language and indigenous accounts of the Spanish conquest.

II. The Initial Encounter

[02:36 – 07:26]

Professor Townsend begins by painting a vivid picture of Cortés' first impressions upon approaching Tenochtitlan on November 8, 1519. The Spaniards were captivated by the city's grandeur, dominated by two towering white pyramids visible from miles around. These structures, adorned with brightly colored cotton flags, initially confused the Spaniards, some mistaking the white paint for silver.

Camilla Townsend “[06:08] ...the Spaniards thought they were seeing silver. But the indigenous people laughed and said, 'No, you wish it were silver, but it is whitewashed. It is, you know, lime.'"

The orderly streets and bustling population heightened Cortés' excitement, fueling his ambition to plunder the riches of what he perceived as a highly organized and hierarchical society.

III. Aztec Perspective vs. Spanish Accounts

[07:26 – 12:26]

Addressing the terminology, Professor Townsend explains the complexity of referring to the indigenous people as "Aztecs." The term "Mexica" was self-identifier but became conflated with the nation name "Mexico," leading scholars to adopt "Aztecs" for broader recognition.

Camilla Townsend “[08:01] ...they did not think these people were gods. So it changes, again, not so much the plot as our understanding.”

Indigenous sources written in Nahuatl offer a contrasting narrative to Spanish letters, revealing that the Aztecs did not perceive the Spaniards as divine beings but as formidable adversaries equipped with superior technology.

IV. Construction of Sources and Nostalgia

[12:26 – 17:58]

Professor Townsend discusses the authenticity and potential biases in indigenous accounts. While some narratives were influenced by European perspectives over time, many early sources remain genuine reflections of Aztec experiences, portraying them as resilient and human rather than mythical figures.

Camilla Townsend “[13:01] ...the Aztecs end up appearing to be very human, very normal, having normal human psyches.”

These sources, often orally transmitted and later transcribed, provide invaluable insights into the Aztec mindset during the conquest.

V. Breakdown of Diplomacy and Conquest Strategy

[17:58 – 26:50]

The conversation delves into Moctezuma II's initial reception of Cortés. Despite recognizing the Spaniards' military prowess, Moctezuma sought to incorporate them through tributes rather than outright confrontation. However, the arrival of additional Spanish forces and the realization of Cortés' expanding capabilities undermined this diplomatic facade.

Camilla Townsend “[21:55] ...more Spaniards arrived. So Cortés's father and others had sent more supplies and more men...”

The siege tactics employed by the Spaniards, including the use of cannons and cavalry, systematically dismantled Aztec defenses. Neighborhoods were methodically flattened, and Aztec attempts to rebuild urban barriers proved futile against relentless European assaults.

VI. The Role of Disease in Conquest

[27:05 – 30:12]

Addressing the impact of smallpox, Professor Townsend acknowledges its significant role but emphasizes that the technological disparity was the primary factor in the Spanish victory. Diseases undoubtedly weakened the indigenous population, but the conquest was feasible even without epidemics due to the overwhelming military advantages held by the Spaniards.

Camilla Townsend “[28:02] ...we cannot say that it never would have happened had it not been for smallpox.”

VII. Pre-Conquest Aztec Society and Culture

[34:54 – 44:51]

Professor Townsend provides a rich exploration of Aztec society before the conquest. She highlights the sophisticated political strategies, such as strategic intermarriages to forge alliances and maintain power structures. The Aztecs exhibited remarkable social organization, balancing familial ties with political stability to prevent internal conflicts.

Camilla Townsend “[36:14] ...They were brilliantly sort of knitting themselves and these different family lines together.”

Additionally, the Aztecs possessed a profound sense of humor and a vibrant cultural life, challenging the often one-dimensional portrayal in Western narratives.

VIII. Religion, Politics, and Gender in Aztec Society

[39:16 – 52:24]

A central topic of discussion is Aztec religion, particularly human sacrifice. Professor Townsend clarifies that while human sacrifice was integral to religious and political life, it was not unique to the Aztecs but was practiced by various ancient civilizations worldwide. She stresses that these practices were often politicized to maintain control and power rather than stemming solely from religious fervor.

Camilla Townsend “[39:33] ...it only was part of life.”

Regarding gender roles, Townsend debunks myths of inherent misogyny in Aztec society. She points out that women held significant social presence, participating in markets and political discussions, and were far from being marginalized or oppressed as often portrayed.

Camilla Townsend “[48:58] ...Aztec women or Nahuatl speaking women had a great deal of power.”

IX. Cultural Changes Post-Conquest

[52:24 – 60:09]

Post-conquest, the Aztecs faced cultural erosion under Spanish rule. However, Professor Townsend highlights efforts by indigenous elites to preserve their heritage through written accounts, despite facing immense pressures to assimilate. Syncretism emerged as indigenous and Christian practices intertwined, leading to a unique blend of beliefs still evident in some parts of Mexico today.

Camilla Townsend “[55:09] ...they began to dictate many of these histories. Much of what we have now about the conquest and the years before is due to these indigenous men.”

X. Misconceptions, Othering, and Changing Narratives

[60:09 – 67:04]

Professor Townsend reflects on the underutilization of indigenous sources due to language barriers and the complexity of non-European narratives. She advocates for a more nuanced understanding of the Aztecs, emphasizing their humanity, cultural richness, and humor to combat the "othering" and exoticizing tendencies in historical storytelling.

Camilla Townsend “[64:19] ...they had a rich sense of humor. If people keep that in mind, I think they will not allow themselves to sort of assert some of the more ridiculous things that have been asserted.”

XI. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a poignant reminder of the Aztecs' humanity and the enduring relevance of their stories. By recognizing the complexity and richness of Aztec culture, listeners are encouraged to move beyond stereotypes and appreciate the nuanced history of the Spanish conquest.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb “[65:10] ...remember that these people were people and not fundamentally different to us.”

Notable Quotes

• Camilla Townsend “[06:08] ...the Spaniards thought they were seeing silver. But the indigenous people laughed and said, 'No, you wish it were silver, but it is whitewashed. It is, you know, lime.'”

• Camilla Townsend “[08:01] ...they did not think these people were gods. So it changes, again, not so much the plot as our understanding.”

• Camilla Townsend “[12:26] ...the Aztecs end up appearing to be very human, very normal, having normal human psyches.”

• Camilla Townsend “[21:55] ...more Spaniards arrived. So Cortés's father and others had sent more supplies and more men...”

• Camilla Townsend “[27:05] ...we cannot say that it never would have happened had it not been for smallpox.”

• Camilla Townsend “[36:14] ...They were brilliantly sort of knitting themselves and these different family lines together.”

• Camilla Townsend “[48:58] ...Aztec women or Nahuatl speaking women had a great deal of power.”

• Camilla Townsend “[55:09] ...they began to dictate many of these histories. Much of what we have now about the conquest and the years before is due to these indigenous men.”

• Camilla Townsend “[64:19] ...they had a rich sense of humor. If people keep that in mind, I think they will not allow themselves to sort of assert some of the more ridiculous things that have been asserted.”

• Professor Susannah Lipscomb “[65:10] ...remember that these people were people and not fundamentally different to us.”

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a refreshing and comprehensive exploration of the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire through indigenous perspectives. Professor Townsend's insights challenge longstanding myths, presenting the Aztecs as a sophisticated and human society caught in the tides of overwhelming force and cultural upheaval.

Listeners are encouraged to revisit previous episodes featuring Professor Matthew Restall and Lawrence Bergreen for a broader understanding of the conquest's multifaceted narratives.