Cortés and the Aztecs

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Cortés and the Aztecs" – Not Just the Tudors

Episode: Cortés and the Aztecs
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Host: Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Guest: Professor Camilla Townsend, Distinguished Professor of History at Rutgers University

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I. Introduction

In this episode of Not Just the Tudors, hosted by Professor Susannah Lipscomb, the focus shifts from the familiar narratives of Tudor England to the dramatic and multifaceted story of Hernán Cortés and the Aztec Empire. Joining her is Professor Camilla Townsend, an esteemed historian specializing in Huatl language and indigenous accounts of the Spanish conquest.

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II. The Initial Encounter

[02:36 – 07:26]

Professor Townsend begins by painting a vivid picture of Cortés' first impressions upon approaching Tenochtitlan on November 8, 1519. The Spaniards were captivated by the city's grandeur, dominated by two towering white pyramids visible from miles around. These structures, adorned with brightly colored cotton flags, initially confused the Spaniards, some mistaking the white paint for silver.

Camilla Townsend “[06:08] ...the Spaniards thought they were seeing silver. But the indigenous people laughed and said, 'No, you wish it were silver, but it is whitewashed. It is, you know, lime.'"

The orderly streets and bustling population heightened Cortés' excitement, fueling his ambition to plunder the riches of what he perceived as a highly organized and hierarchical society.

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III. Aztec Perspective vs. Spanish Accounts

[07:26 – 12:26]

Addressing the terminology, Professor Townsend explains the complexity of referring to the indigenous people as "Aztecs." The term "Mexica" was self-identifier but became conflated with the nation name "Mexico," leading scholars to adopt "Aztecs" for broader recognition.

Camilla Townsend “[08:01] ...they did not think these people were gods. So it changes, again, not so much the plot as our understanding.”

Indigenous sources written in Nahuatl offer a contrasting narrative to Spanish letters, revealing that the Aztecs did not perceive the Spaniards as divine beings but as formidable adversaries equipped with superior technology.

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IV. Construction of Sources and Nostalgia

[12:26 – 17:58]

Professor Townsend discusses the authenticity and potential biases in indigenous accounts. While some narratives were influenced by European perspectives over time, many early sources remain genuine reflections of Aztec experiences, portraying them as resilient and human rather than mythical figures.

Camilla Townsend “[13:01] ...the Aztecs end up appearing to be very human, very normal, having normal human psyches.”

These sources, often orally transmitted and later transcribed, provide invaluable insights into the Aztec mindset during the conquest.

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V. Breakdown of Diplomacy and Conquest Strategy

[17:58 – 26:50]

The conversation delves into Moctezuma II's initial reception of Cortés. Despite recognizing the Spaniards' military prowess, Moctezuma sought to incorporate them through tributes rather than outright confrontation. However, the arrival of additional Spanish forces and the realization of Cortés' expanding capabilities undermined this diplomatic facade.

Camilla Townsend “[21:55] ...more Spaniards arrived. So Cortés's father and others had sent more supplies and more men...”

The siege tactics employed by the Spaniards, including the use of cannons and cavalry, systematically dismantled Aztec defenses. Neighborhoods were methodically flattened, and Aztec attempts to rebuild urban barriers proved futile against relentless European assaults.

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VI. The Role of Disease in Conquest

[27:05 – 30:12]

Addressing the impact of smallpox, Professor Townsend acknowledges its significant role but emphasizes that the technological disparity was the primary factor in the Spanish victory. Diseases undoubtedly weakened the indigenous population, but the conquest was feasible even without epidemics due to the overwhelming military advantages held by the Spaniards.

Camilla Townsend “[28:02] ...we cannot say that it never would have happened had it not been for smallpox.”

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VII. Pre-Conquest Aztec Society and Culture

[34:54 – 44:51]

Professor Townsend provides a rich exploration of Aztec society before the conquest. She highlights the sophisticated political strategies, such as strategic intermarriages to forge alliances and maintain power structures. The Aztecs exhibited remarkable social organization, balancing familial ties with political stability to prevent internal conflicts.

Camilla Townsend “[36:14] ...They were brilliantly sort of knitting themselves and these different family lines together.”

Additionally, the Aztecs possessed a profound sense of humor and a vibrant cultural life, challenging the often one-dimensional portrayal in Western narratives.

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VIII. Religion, Politics, and Gender in Aztec Society

[39:16 – 52:24]

A central topic of discussion is Aztec religion, particularly human sacrifice. Professor Townsend clarifies that while human sacrifice was integral to religious and political life, it was not unique to the Aztecs but was practiced by various ancient civilizations worldwide. She stresses that these practices were often politicized to maintain control and power rather than stemming solely from religious fervor.

Camilla Townsend “[39:33] ...it only was part of life.”

Regarding gender roles, Townsend debunks myths of inherent misogyny in Aztec society. She points out that women held significant social presence, participating in markets and political discussions, and were far from being marginalized or oppressed as often portrayed.

Camilla Townsend “[48:58] ...Aztec women or Nahuatl speaking women had a great deal of power.”

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IX. Cultural Changes Post-Conquest

[52:24 – 60:09]

Post-conquest, the Aztecs faced cultural erosion under Spanish rule. However, Professor Townsend highlights efforts by indigenous elites to preserve their heritage through written accounts, despite facing immense pressures to assimilate. Syncretism emerged as indigenous and Christian practices intertwined, leading to a unique blend of beliefs still evident in some parts of Mexico today.

Camilla Townsend “[55:09] ...they began to dictate many of these histories. Much of what we have now about the conquest and the years before is due to these indigenous men.”

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X. Misconceptions, Othering, and Changing Narratives

[60:09 – 67:04]

Professor Townsend reflects on the underutilization of indigenous sources due to language barriers and the complexity of non-European narratives. She advocates for a more nuanced understanding of the Aztecs, emphasizing their humanity, cultural richness, and humor to combat the "othering" and exoticizing tendencies in historical storytelling.

Camilla Townsend “[64:19] ...they had a rich sense of humor. If people keep that in mind, I think they will not allow themselves to sort of assert some of the more ridiculous things that have been asserted.”

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XI. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a poignant reminder of the Aztecs' humanity and the enduring relevance of their stories. By recognizing the complexity and richness of Aztec culture, listeners are encouraged to move beyond stereotypes and appreciate the nuanced history of the Spanish conquest.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb “[65:10] ...remember that these people were people and not fundamentally different to us.”

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Notable Quotes

• Camilla Townsend “[06:08] ...the Spaniards thought they were seeing silver. But the indigenous people laughed and said, 'No, you wish it were silver, but it is whitewashed. It is, you know, lime.'”

• Camilla Townsend “[08:01] ...they did not think these people were gods. So it changes, again, not so much the plot as our understanding.”

• Camilla Townsend “[12:26] ...the Aztecs end up appearing to be very human, very normal, having normal human psyches.”

• Camilla Townsend “[21:55] ...more Spaniards arrived. So Cortés's father and others had sent more supplies and more men...”

• Camilla Townsend “[27:05] ...we cannot say that it never would have happened had it not been for smallpox.”

• Camilla Townsend “[36:14] ...They were brilliantly sort of knitting themselves and these different family lines together.”

• Camilla Townsend “[48:58] ...Aztec women or Nahuatl speaking women had a great deal of power.”

• Camilla Townsend “[55:09] ...they began to dictate many of these histories. Much of what we have now about the conquest and the years before is due to these indigenous men.”

• Camilla Townsend “[64:19] ...they had a rich sense of humor. If people keep that in mind, I think they will not allow themselves to sort of assert some of the more ridiculous things that have been asserted.”

• Professor Susannah Lipscomb “[65:10] ...remember that these people were people and not fundamentally different to us.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a refreshing and comprehensive exploration of the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire through indigenous perspectives. Professor Townsend's insights challenge longstanding myths, presenting the Aztecs as a sophisticated and human society caught in the tides of overwhelming force and cultural upheaval.

Listeners are encouraged to revisit previous episodes featuring Professor Matthew Restall and Lawrence Bergreen for a broader understanding of the conquest's multifaceted narratives.

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Transcript

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit with a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series A World Torn, the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward/subscribe.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. All this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're debunking the myths that surround the often told stories of the conquest of the Americas. In the first episode, Professor Matthew Restall demonstrated that apart from the common European narratives, there also lies a world of indigenous voices, stories of fierce resistance, cunning, survival and unexpected alliances. And last time, Lawrence Bergreen joined me to look at the legendary figure of Christopher Columbus, whose impact on the so called New World he encountered was often far from the stuff of heroism. Do go back and have a listen to both those fascinating episodes if you haven't already done so. Today it's the turn of Spanish conquistador Hernan Cortez, who on November 8, 1519, entered the city of Tecnochtitlan, the capital of the Aztec kingdom. With a force of 600 soldiers, 15 horsemen and cannons, and bolstered by hundreds of indigenous allies, Cortes was welcomed by the Aztec leader Moctezuma ii. As diplomacy fractured into violence, a brutal and sustained battle was waged for control of the land and its riches, punctuated by massacres in the Aztec great temple and fierce reprisals. With the outcome of the final siege of Tecnochtitlan and the destruction of many of the city's magnificent palaces and temples, came the birth of the most enduring of all Aztec stereotypes, the bloodthirsty savage. Known for little more than religious fanaticism and human sacrifice in the centuries since. And despite evidence of a rich and varied culture, it is an image which continues to endure above any other today. I'm delighted to welcome Camilla Townsend, Distinguished professor of History at Rutgers University and award winning author of numerous books including Pocahontas and the Powhatan Dilemma, the Annals of Native how the Nuar's of Colonial Mexico Kept Their History Alive, and Mallette's An Indian Woman in the Conquest of Mexico. A specialist in Huatl language. Professor Townsend, award winning book, Fifth A New History of the Aztecs reframes the Spanish conquest of Mexico, examining it through its indigenous accounts and bringing a new understanding not only of this dramatic conflict, but of the remarkable and vibrant Aztec culture. I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and you're listening to not just the Tudors from History here. Professor Townden, what an honour to welcome you to the podcast.

[Camilla Townsend]

Oh, thank you so much. But the honour is mine. Thank you.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

I think that many people having heard something about Cortes and the conquest of the Aztecs by the Spanish, might have in Mind the impression that the conquistadors got when they approached the Aztec empire and saw this capital city, perhaps our first and most famous clue as to the richness of pre conquest Aztec culture. What did they see?

[Camilla Townsend]

Well, as they approached the city, they saw the two great pyramids that dominated the cityscape of Tenochtitlan that could be seen from miles around. They were so tall that people across the lake, because it was a city on an island in the middle of a lake, the people across on the shores of the lake and even slightly more inland villages could see it. These pyramids were painted white, and from them flew all sorts of brightly colored cotton flags when they were a bit further away. Some of the Spaniards had imagined when they saw the sun glinting on the white pyramids that they were seeing silver. But the indigenous people who were with them laughed and said, no, you wish it were silver, but it is whitewashed. It is, you know, lime. They're painted with lime still. Very, very beautiful and very impressive. When they got closer and they saw that, you know, the teeming peoples and the orderly streets, they got very excited because the Europeans, especially the conquistadors who were familiar with northern Africa, fought in the Reconquista, some of them in years past. They got very excited because they thought, ah, if this is an organized hierarchical society with, you know, well planned laid out cities, it means that they're rich and we are going to be able to rob them of a great deal of money. So there were many reasons for being excited, and they did get very, very excited.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And that comes, of course, from letters by Cortez. And, you know, we have other Spanish language sources about the conquest, but there are also multiple surviving accounts written in the native language of Nahato. How does the Aztec perspective, and I should also ask at this stage, is that the right term? Was that the term they would have used for themselves or should we be using another name? But how does that perspective on that first encounter differ from what was written by the Spanish?

[Camilla Townsend]

Right. That's a very important question. I'll take the little embedded question first. I do use the word Aztecs. The reason that heard that it's problematic, as you evidently have, is that the people themselves never used that word. Some scholars in the late 18th and early 19th century were looking about, trying to figure out what to call these people. And the word that they used themselves, the Mexica, spelled Mexico or Mexico, had long been used as the name of the country that we know of as Mexico by the time these scholars were writing. So that was going to be confusing. So they were looking for a word, and in one of the sources, they found a reference to their ancestors, the and Mexica. Their ancestors, they believed, came from a place called Aztlan. So Aztec meant people of Aztlan. So they took this word. The scholars took this word that was really a casual reference to some of their ancestors from long ago and said, we'll call them this. And the word really took on a life of its own. Everybody liked the word. It was easily pronounceable in English and Spanish. And so it got repeated over and over again until today. That's the word that everybody uses to talk about these people who lived in the central valley of Mexico when Hernando Cortez has arrived. And so as a result, I use it too. Many of my fellow scholars chide me because it's not correct. It's not what they call themselves. But if I run around saying the Mexica, many people will not know who I'm talking about. And so I actually encourage us, when we're having conversations like this one, for a broad audience, to just use the word Aztec. So everyone is on the same page, so to speak. We can also call them Nahuas, as you started to do, because their language, the Aztec language, is Nahuatl, and the Nahua is a person who speaks Nahuatl. So that's another possibility, Although the Nahuas included not only the Aztecs, but many of the people that they conquered, many of whom spoke the same language. Now, you ask, what kind of a different picture do we get when we look at these sources that they wrote themselves? Keep in mind that what we're getting when we look at these sources in many cases are very old histories that used to be delivered orally around campfires. And then when the Spaniards came and they taught the Roman Alphabet to many of their acolytes, the people began to use that Alphabet to write down all sorts of things that their Spanish friar teachers didn't even know they were using it for. They wrote down prayers and histories and all sorts of things in the privacy of their own homes. So we have lots of these rich histories that go way back before the conquest. And then we also have statements that were made between 20 and 40 years after the conquest by, you know, then aging, mostly men, by old men remembering their days of fighting in the conquest, also speaking in Nahuatl to younger Nahuas who were writing it down. In Nahuatl, the Spaniards weren't even in the room. So we do have some really rich accounts by Nahuat speaking, people of the years before leading up to the conquest and the conquest itself, and a little bit less right after, because the young people were less likely to ask grandpa, and what was it like in the 20 years after the conquest then, than they were to ask, what was the war like? So we have all these sources that in some ways they confirm what we get from the Spaniards, as you say, in their letters and the accounts that they wrote later, the basic facts the Spaniards had. Right. I don't want anyone to expect that we're going to sort of overturn the events of history, but what really changes is our understanding of them. So, for example, a famous example, the Spaniards later said, not at that time, but later, about a generation later, they started to say, oh, that the Indians worshiped us, thought we were gods. But if you look at what the indigenous people said in their own sources, written for their own people, there was nothing like that. They did not think these people were gods. So it's true that the Europeans were defeating them in the battlefield and the Europeans together with their indigenous allies. But it is not true that we should therefore imagine that we understand what was going on in the indigenous people's heads and that they were bowing, you know, forehead to the floor, bowing, thinking that these Europeans were gods. So it changes, again, not so much the plot as our understanding, understanding of that plot, our interpretation of it. And it can be very valuable in that regard. I think the Aztecs end up appearing to be very human, very normal, having normal human psyches, and so it really, in that sense, changes the story.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes, it's so interesting, isn't it, that idea that the Aztecs thought the Europeans were gods. Quetzalcoatl often is mentioned. I'm sure D.H. lawrence is partly responsible for that in one of his novels. But that has really stuck in the psyche. Can I ask a question about the construction of those sources? Is there a kind of nostalgia present in their creation? And because they're written post conquest, after the Roman Alphabet has been learned, and so now what can be transcribed into it, do you think that that affects how we should read them?

[Camilla Townsend]

Well, yes and no. So, for instance, by the late 1500s, some of the grandchildren of the conquered indigenous people were starting to agree with the Spanish, were starting to repeat their accounts and saying things like, oh, yes, I think my grandfather did think that the white men were gods. It was as if they were looking for an explanation for what had happened. And the Europeans had handed them this possible explanation and they liked it. Yes, my grandfather was just too Fatalistic, too religious, you know, too spiritual for his own good. So there are ways in which you can almost watch these kinds of romanticized, as you put it, views taking shape as they borrow bits and pieces of the Spanish narrative. On the other hand, there are parts of these histories, especially the earlier ones, that were written down first by young people, but speaking to elders who had never even met a white man, much less learned any Spanish. And some of these accounts just couldn't have been made up or even influenced by a Spaniard, because they'll say things that no Spaniard would ever even have thought of and explain things in terms of political marriages that the Spaniards couldn't possibly have known anything about or understood. So if you're looking with certain glasses on, you can find evidence again, especially towards the end of the 1500s, of profound European influence. But if you look with a different pair of glasses, so to speak, at some of the earlier sources and really open yourselves up to what they're saying, you can see that these were statements uttered by people who really knew nothing about European culture and couldn't have been influenced by it. And so then some of the statements are so clearly, even memorized, pre conquest statements, that you really feel like you're in the hands of ancient indigenous people. So I'll say both ands. There certainly is European influence, but I wouldn't want us to then suddenly think, well, that means that everything we have that the indigenous wrote down is really a product of the European imagination. Because I really don't think that's fair.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

No, of course, of course. So I want to come back to think about what we know of pre conquest Aztec culture. But if we just stick for a second with the moment of conquest, do we have descriptions of Cortes and his, the Spanish army and the moment of conquest from the Aztec side?

[Camilla Townsend]

Some of them are surprisingly, to a certain extent, light hearted. So what I mean by that is, for example, they were able to find humor in certain moments. So when Hernando Cortez and his people try to build a catapult that they think is gonna work to bring down the city, they are unable to do it. They don't have a cat catapult engineer with them. And it turns out that it's quite difficult to build an effective catapult. So the indigenous describe them building this thing and, you know, swinging up the sling and a big boulder comes out, flies about 10ft and then drops bang, right on top of some, you know, some of the Spaniards and their equipment never makes it anywhere near the indigenous. So they Tell the stories like this as if they are amusing, as they're very well aware that these are just men, and these are men who are sometimes floundering. On the other hand, they're well aware that they're losing the battle. I mean, in their memory, of course, they know that they lost. They said at one point, one of the old men speaking said it was almost the way a cat toys with a mouse. The mouse can get away and live for a while, but the cat is going to win that. I mean, he literally uses that metaphor, a cat toying with a mouse. It seems to me that they were up against, you know, Renaissance Europe and in a way, ancient Asian culture. That is, the Old World peoples had been farming, had been agriculturalists for several millennia longer than the New World peoples. And as a result, they had higher population. They had ships and navigation equipment. They had metal arms and armor, metal crossbows, things that the indigenous people didn't have. And those things actually also attracted many indigenous allies to the Spaniards. They could see that the Spaniards had the weaponry, the armor, et cetera. So many more of them joined this. Europeans then joins the Aztecs. So for both reasons, the technological gap and then the fact that as a result of that, the allies were flocking to them. The Aztecs saw clearly that they were losing, but they kept up a fight. I mean, all of their honor was at stake. And they fought until there was nothing left to fight with. You know, very few adult men and certainly no food. So their memories, their accounts include humanizations of the Spaniards. Nothing that would suggest they thought these men were gods. As I said, sometimes they even laughed. But overall, the tone is very somber. And of course, they remember the period after the moment when they, you know, symbolically raised the white flag when they went to beg for a truce. And they remember people starving and, you know, eating worms and bugs. They remembered blood spattered on the walls. They describe it. So ultimately, it's a very tragic set of memories.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

If we think about the narrative of the conquest, we've got Cortes arriving on the eastern coast of present day Mexico in March 1519. As I said, with a small force, 600 men, few horses, a few cannon, and they reach Tenochtitlan in November, and it's this extraordinary city. Given that they didn't think that the Spanish were gods, why would Moctezuma have initially welcomed Cortez as he did?

[Camilla Townsend]

Right. It's very complex, and there are various theories, because one thing we don't have is a written account by Montezuma. His grandson did write we have some thoughts of his, but we don't have Montezuma's private thinking. I will say this. From what the Aztecs did actually write, they were well aware that the Spaniards won their individual battles. They would send people galloping on horses. Remember, the Aztecs didn't have any horses. There were no horses in the New World at that time. So they would send their men galloping into various villages. This was before they arrived at Tenochtitlan and covered with their metal armor and armed with crossbows, and they would shoot flaming arrows into the houses. So by the time they left, they would have skewered several dozen men with their long spears and burned down most of the houses. And then they would gallop away literally without injury, leaving, you know, hundreds dead and others dying. So the indigenous people had experienced this a number of times. And then in the period of siege around Tenochtitlan, you know, it was a lake. But the Spaniards were able to build ships. Now what they really did was direct indigenous allies to build the ships. They didn't provide the labor, but the Spaniards did know how to build ships so that when the wind was right, they could bear down on the city, you know, within half an hour, as opposed to the multi hour canoe travel that the Aztecs were expecting. And then again, if they had a few horses with them and the. And they did because you could, you know, I don't need to tell a podcaster about the Tudors that you could. They could sling horses up on board and sling them back down with a pulley system. They could again attack a neighborhood as they had done with the villages in the rural areas, and then retreat. So they had learned that the Spaniards won their battles. Now you might say, yes, but there are hundreds of thousands of indigenous people and only 600 Spaniards. So why didn't they just eventually, you know, surround those initial 600 and kill them? They could have, but with great injuries. Great. And they talk about this in their sources. The numbers of wounded and dead were astronomical. When you're talking about 600 men who clad in metal with their shields, et cetera, the number of days and the number of dead it's going to take to bring them down is really quite extraordinary. If you yourselves don't have that same equipment and most Ezuma could not afford that. He was in a sense like a dictator himself. That is, the Aztecs were trying to enforce discipline over many different vill, hundreds of villages, many of whom were tightly allied with them and were intermarried with them. And some of whom even Loved them or were partly aztec by blood. But it was a monstrous sort of political conglomerate that he was holding together. And in the middle of the way you do that is by promising people, I will protect you. You stick with me. You're good man. But if in the midst of all this sort of dicey political conglomerate, men are dying by the thousands in order to bring down 600 men, this doesn't look good. He, Montezuma, could not aff. They come close to saying it that bluntly. They don't actually say it that bluntly, but they come close to saying it that bluntly. So what he seems to have done is invite them in as honored guests. And there was a lot of discussion, I think, again, implicitly, in the sources. What he was trying to do was arrange a tribute system. He was going to pay them off, you know, try to figure out what is it that you want Every year, I will pay you that, and then you stay away, just as I demand tribute from these less powerful villages. And then I stay away from them. So he had a plan, but it didn't work out.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes, it certainly didn't. Why did it break down, this sort of facade of diplomacy?

[Camilla Townsend]

Right. Well, at a certain point, more spaniards arrived. You know, a message had gone back home. And so cortes's father and others had sent more supplies and more men and more ships and more horses and more spears, et cetera. So suddenly, the indigenous people who were observing and trying to decide what to do noted that more were coming. And it became clear that these 600 men were just the tip of an iceberg. And that really changed the picture, because if there was going to be an infinite supply of these horses and armed and armored men, then they really had a problem. And at that point, many more did come to side with the spaniards, Even from villages that were tightly allied with the aztecs or whose royal families were allied, you know, intermarried with the aztecs. Often it caused little civil war. Villages would split. Half the people would say, no, we're sticking with the Aztecs. And half would go and say to Cortes, we're here. We will join. But eventually, so many indigenous had joined that the aztecs were completely surrounded. They could no longer send little canoes out to friendly villages and bring back food into their city. And when that happened, it was just a matter of time. As with any really effective siege, the people who are laying the siege are going to win.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Do we have, in this instance, an account of the nature of this Aztec defense and how they attempted to hold off the Spanish Right.

[Camilla Townsend]

So the Spaniards, through these ships, were able to approach neighborhood by neighborhood and level it. They would use cannons to send, I suppose, rocks more than anything else that I'd have to check if they were using cannonballs or rocks to shoot out and damage these adobe structures and turn a neighborhood into a flat plain. Once they had created a flat surface, the Europeans were in a much stronger position, because then it was no longer urban warfare. Then it became the usual gallop across a surface, skewering people who are there. I mean, that's a battle that Renaissance European technology is going to win. So neighborhood by neighborhood, they pushed people back. The Aztec strategy often was, and this we get directly from the sources here. I'm not reading between the lines during the night to come back and try to rebuild walls, houses, dig dikes, dig out canals, et cetera, because it was, again, a lake city, again, trying to reconstruct the kind of urban barriers to the Spaniards galloping and taking neighborhoods. But there was only so much of that they could do. It was actually in that description that the indigenous man says it was almost like a cat playing with a mat. You know, eventually they were able to flatten the city faster than we could recreate an urban landscape that we could use to fight back. There were some sort of desperate moments of derring do when indigenous warriors became like berserkers, if that's a term that's familiar, and would kill, you know, just wildly. But they would, of course, eventually be brought down by the crossbows. But they entered into myth and legend in Aztec lore for having been so brave in those moments of battle. So they fought for three months. I mean, these people who were brilliant. I mean, I studied their poetry and their writings, but who were, in fact, in the Stone Age, and that they didn't have. Metal weaponry held rising Renaissance Europe at bay for three months. But the Stone Age couldn't do much better than that. Bluntly, even with all the indigenous allies, we have to give, I think, some credit to what millennia of agriculture had brought the technology of Europe and Asia.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And I'm struck by the fact that actually some of the techniques that the Spanish are using are ones that they've honed three decades earlier in the battle against the Muslims of Granada. They have been besieging Granada. They have throwing stone projectiles at their walls and demolishing them. You know, they know how to do this very well.

[Camilla Townsend]

Exactly. They had long experience, and, you know, once they were able to start bringing in more men and more weapons and weren't just reliant on the initial few hundred, the situation changed and the indigenous people were well able to perceive that. We mustn't imagine that any perception that they had in the first hour was what the indigenous people were stuck with. They learned fast, they were a quick study. And many of the groups changed sides and came over to the Europeans when they saw what was going to happen. Some joined the Europeans right away. I mean, the Aztecs had many enemies. We just mustn't imagine that everybody hated them. That's an old myth, frankly. It's attached to the myth that they were sort of bestial humans who ate hearts for breakfast. Part of that myth is that every other indigenous person in Mexico hated their guts. Okay, that's silly. You know, they weren't that evil nor did everybody hate them, but they did have real enemies and so there were some who joined the Spaniards right away. It was only after the Spaniards had shown their technolog capabilities, though, that they were able to bring over even former tight allies of the Aztecs.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Do you think something of that idea also about the Aztecs being neighbours who were hated by all those around them is partly a kind of convenient rationalization for mistreatment under the Spanish?

[Camilla Townsend]

Absolutely. The Spaniards loved to say and imply that, you know, God wanted this conquest. I guess I should say imply. I don't think anyone ever said it just like that. But it's the subtext of men, many of their writings that this horrible regime had to end. And it's easy to say, and even the Indians agreed with us. In fact, the Aztecs were very similar to probably about a dozen different city states who had risen and fallen in the past in Mesoamerica, used some very similar techniques, et cetera, and they were disliked in the way that the most powerful guy on the black is often disliked. But they were also admired by many people. Right. We just, it's silly to imagine that they were uniquely evil and perceived as uniquely evil at the time.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

The other thing that's said about the conquest is that smallpox was responsible for the Spanish victory. To what extent is that true?

[Camilla Townsend]

That's another excellent question. Yes, in the last probably 30 years that has been the convenient explanation offered. And I understand that I was in graduate school when people began to write about this. And I mean, well, they had written about it before, began to really fully explore the ramifications of it. And it's partly true, that is the panoply of European diseases did waken New World peoples. I mean, we know that over the first century somewhere between 80 and 90% of the people died, but they didn't all die in the first two years or during this war of conquest. I mean, hopefully Covid has taught us that even dreadful diseases don't actually kill everyone. I mean, hemorrhagic smallpox, I think kills about 20%. That's pretty bad. But even hemorrhagic smallpox doesn't kill everybody. So it's foolish of us to imagine that that was the be all and end all. And in fact, there were plenty of places in the New World, not in Tenochtitlan, but elsewhere, where the defeat of the indigenous occurred before the first epidemic ever broke out. The real problem with, I would say the real problem with saying that it's all the fault of smallpox in the case of the Aztecs, is that the indigenous allies were hit just as hard, of course, as the Aztecs were. So when the Aztecs were lying sick and dying or just strugg with the illness, even if they weren't going to die, that was equally true amongst all the native peoples who had side with the Europeans. And for a while, the war basically stopped and then the disease moved onward. I mean, again, we saw this with COVID so modern listeners will understand this. Then it hit another city, we remember, another country. So it would move on to a new sort of virgin population, and then the war would be paused there. So it wasn't that it was irrelevant. It created a huge psychological effect. It did weaken them over time. But we cannot say that it never would have happened had it not been for smallpox. Again, we see conquests elsewhere before the diseases break out. The form of history would have been a bit different. The conquest would have been experienced somewhat differently. But we can't say that without conquest, you know, the Aztecs would be ruling Europe today. That's just not true.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

It's so interesting to hear this version of the story, this much more accurate version of the story, because I'm struck by the fact that there are so many parallels to what is going on in the old world at the same sort of time. Actually, I've spoken recently to Lindel Roper about the German peasants War, or we've thought about Kett's rebellion and its crushing in 1549. And again, basically, when you've got cavalry, you're going to win. And it seems in the end it comes down to that largely, it really does.

[Camilla Townsend]

I mean, cavalry combined with long metal weapons, you can kill others who can't really hurt you. Right, okay. But yes, okay, so that's exactly right. I mean, I think in recent times, there's been a tendency, and I mean like the last decade or so, I don't mean the last century a tendency to dismiss the power of technological differentials. But I think we do so at our peril, that the indigenous people alive at the time would not want us to be doing that. In their writings they make it clear why they think they're losing. And it's not because they think they're stupid or unworthy or unchristian or anything like that, but just outmatched by this technology. And they wonder why. Why did the gods give so much more to these other people? You know, they had no way of knowing that it's connected to how long you've been sedentary farmers, that it takes millennia of sedentary life to develop these sorts of things. So I think you're absolutely right. It's not just something that is somehow insulting to the native peoples, it's simply a fact. Whoever you are European native, if you don't have the horses and the long metal weapons that the other side has, what can you do? You can postpone the defeat through some very clever actions, but you can't ultimately win and we shouldn't expect it of them. I think it's insulting to them to expect that, you know, the peasants or the indigenous people to win under those circumstances.

[Josie Santee]

I'm Josie Santee, health coach, wellness editor and host of the Every Girl podcast, where we cut through the noise with realistic, expert backed advice to help you thrive in every category of life while still loving the person that you already are. And part of loving yourself is being really authentic to you, including the clothes you wear. In partnership with Nordstrom, we're helping you update your spring wardrobe so your style is fit for your best self. Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands like Skims, Mango Free People and Princess polly, all under $100. From trending Sneakers to beauty must haves, we've curated the styles that you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pickup make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores [e-mail] Here are.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Do you think the Aztecs would recognize themselves in the Spanish narratives of the Conquest?

[Camilla Townsend]

Not at all. I mean, far from thinking of themselves as monsters, they actually thought of themselves as kind of beleaguered guys who had always been doing their best to make it, you know, even though no one helped them. I say that a bit tongue in cheek because of course they had risen to be so powerful. But they were migrants from what is today, ironically, given what's going on now. They were the migrants coming from what is today the United States down into Mexico, which was the rich and powerful land. They had been among the very last of those migrants to arrive in the past couple couple of centuries. And they really had a hard time finding a place to live. In fact, they were on that island because nobody else wanted it because it was so swampy. So they thought of themselves as kind of the underdogs who had barely pulled it together. They had been under attack and their own daughters killed. Suddenly they were the ones doing better through clever, clever alliances. It wouldn't have occurred to them, I think, that the future would think of them, the people of the future would think of them as monsters who had been super powerful and always holding an axe or a hammer over the heads of others.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So your research also allows us to think about what the Nahuatl sources tell us about pre Conquest Aztec society. Can you give us a flavor of that?

[Camilla Townsend]

Right, so These sources do include quite a bit of material that is clearly memorized from. From prior generations. Again, so un European, that very little has been done with this, with it, because it takes more patience to understand this stuff. You have to read it more times and read more widely. One thing that really strikes me is the extraordinarily clever use of intermarriage. I mean, we think of sort of Queen Victoria marrying her children off to the crown heads of Europe and then that policy failing disastrously because we still get the first World War. But they were much smarter than that, that they were constantly sort of building an intertwined quilt, a political quilt of people that, you know, if you marry your daughter under certain circumstances to this other ruler such that you understand that her children will be the next king and queen, then that's a very positive step. Whereas if she's taken by force and her children will have no power, then you understand that that's symbolic of kind of subservient relationship. So they were brilliantly sort of knitting themselves and these different family lines together. The problem with it is that when you have many wives, when a man has many wives, he also has dozens of children, and it can yield civil war. The Aztecs were very clever about not letting those civil wars break out. If one brother inherited, he'd make sure that his half brothers by other wives were paid off in other ways through lands or positions of titles. So they were very good about this. So we see a kind of a political world built around family in very savvy strategic ways, was so complex that often the Spaniards didn't understand what they were seeing and didn't understand the political results of actions that they took because they didn't understand how these various villages were intermarried and what that meant. We also see a great deal of humor. I alluded to them seeing the funny side, even of conquest, and that is not unusual in their sources. They're always looking for the bright side, the funny side. And that's not something that we would expect of Aztecs, given what we were trained to believe. They've also. They didn't believe in a heaven, possibly four years of heaven for people who died for their people, whether you died in childbirth as a woman or died on the battlefield. But even that was debatable. And you only got an extra four years living among the gods. People understood that heaven was right now on earth. Earth is beautiful. The gods have given us this extraordinary chance to live, and we should therefore live with joy, gusto and honor. Didn't mean that you could Be selfish. One of the ways you get joy is by, you know, knowing that you will be well remembered. So the idea was the creed was, live well now, appreciate what you have now. And in many ways, I think it's not a bad way to live. I know that some serious Christians would disagree with me about that, and I understand that there's another argument to be made. But it does lead to some passionate, loving, and honorable ways of life. When you understand that this is what you got, make the most of it. So there were various ways in which they were a truly fascinating culture and quite different from the one that we might have been led to expect.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Perhaps the dominant, most ubiquitous visual image of the Aztecs is the focus on human sacrifice. So let's have a talk a bit more about their faith, the nature of their religion, and what role sacrifice actually played in it.

[Camilla Townsend]

That's a very important question. And I am guilty in some of my writings, less so recently, of dancing around it because I want people to see other aspects of these people and of their culture than have been emphasized in the past. But the truth is, it's a very important subject. So it definitely was real. It is not a myth, it is not a lie that human beings were killed in ceremonies at the heart of their religion. But there are various sort of elements that have been misunderstood. First of all, archaeologists now believe that human sacrifice was practiced on all the continents, except, of course, Antarctica and possibly excepting Australia. There's no hard evidence that ancient Australia, but other than that, we see evidence in ancient times of this happening everywhere. There's something very powerful, I mean, even now, about the idea of a young person being willing to meet death to save their people or on behalf of their people. So there was, amongst many indigenous people in the Americas, not just Aztecs, an understanding that the greatest gift you could give to the gods was the gift of human life. And after battles, very often a prisoner of war, sometimes more, but usually one would be killed. This was something that happened. And again, I want to remind us, it happened in ancient Europe and ancient Asia, too. We just don't see it as clearly because it wasn't happening, you know, in the 1400 and 1500, but it was in the Americas when the Europeans arrived. So this was a standard feature both of religion and of battle. And it was understood that the enemy person that you sacrifice was to be given honor. If you didn't, they didn't cry out. They sometimes were even worshipped to a certain extent. And certainly if they didn't cry out, their people had honor. Forever. So this was a part of life. What the Aztecs did by the end of their tenure was weaponize a common practice. And again, not all the Aztecs, but the ruling cluster, the ruling clique. So when they first arrived in the Central Valley, they could no more have sacrificed large numbers of people than they could have flown. I mean, they were the people who were beholden to others, who were desperate for a place to live, et cetera. But as they grew in power, they grew more tense about losing that power. A little bit like children playing king of the mountain. You know, the kid who's on the desk kicks harder and harder as other little boys try to climb on the desk and take his spot. So as they. Well, to use a political analogy, I can say this as an American. You might think of my own country in the 70s and 80s and the Dirty wars in Latin America and elsewhere, or heavens, Vietnam. I mean, because the US Was at the pinnacle of its power, there was a certain degree of paranoia and a willingness to use kind of vicious tactics in other places. So. So the Aztec leadership did begin to do this. They actually say this in their sources that, for example, if an area was sort of in their sights to be conquered, or they would go and bring, kidnap, grab some young men and bring them to watch some horrible grisly sacrifice ceremonies and then let them go home. So that they would go home and tell their people, we really should just join this empire voluntarily. We do not want to fight these people. We don't want to unite with our enemies, with our neighbors, rather to try to fight these people. We just want to join because otherwise. Otherwise they come. And if they win, they will take, you know, our young people and sacrifice them in brutal ways, not just one. As I would say, you know, they were weaponizing it. They were. They were sacrificing more and more. This would be by the late 1400s that there's evidence of this, not before. So there's no question that the political ruling elite was making a decision to weaponize this practice. What's debated among scholars is to what extent did they do this? Because they really had come to believe that if they didn't appease the gods with this many deaths, know, the sun wouldn't rise. And to what extent were they doing it for political reasons? Looking at the Nahuat sources, I would say it's pretty clear they were doing it for political reasons. That's certainly what they say in private, you know, not when they're being questioned by Spaniards. I think it's been more appealing In a very culturalist era recently to say, oh, we must respect their culture. And it must have been because of their culture that they believed they had to kill hundreds and even thousands of people in order to make the sun rise. But it makes no sense. They only had the power to do that for, say, the preceding 20 to 30 years. So how can we say their entire culture was founded or embedded in this idea? Cultures don't define themselves in that way on such a deep, deep level. Within 20 years. There's also no evidence that the average Aztec had anything to do with the priestly class. Certainly was in favor of was their career opportunities. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but as they developed the killing apparatus, they became more powerful. We also have to remember that, again, they were doing this with obsidian blades. Some of the statements that the Spaniards later made would have been physically impossible. They could not have killed, you know, 30,000 people in one festival with the equipment that they had available. Nor could that have made sense politically. Why would surrounding towns of 30,000 each have allowed this? Right, so there's been some sort of widely imaginative, sort of speculative statements that have come to be believed over time. But it is true that in the heart of the religion there were people dying. You know, the hearts were being cut out every month, and that those numbers were growing over time. That part is not a lie.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

You've made it really clear how intertwined religion was with politics under the Aztecs. Can you say a bit more about that?

[Camilla Townsend]

Well, I guess all I would really want to underscore is that that's probably true everywhere. I mean, wars have been waged on behalf of Christianity and Islam as well. Well, there is no question that the priestly class and the governing class were literally intertwined. They were related. So their power, you know, they rose together. These were several extended families rising together. And even if you could argue that some of these people who wrote or who dictated the statements that I have read, that they were doing this for political reason, Even if you set that aside and say, yes, but there were other priests whose statements or other people whose statements we don't have who really believed it, I would say, well, then it's like any other group of people. Some of them were doing it for deeply spiritual reasons, some for political reasons, some for some mixture. Cortez himself was known for being very religious, but he fought on Sundays if he needed to. If it was practical, we shouldn't assume that an entire group of people were all utterly paralyzed by the deepest beliefs of some subset of those people. Any more than we would assume that all Christians were totally paralyzed by the deepest beliefs of some of their priests. There's always a mixture of, I would say sort of realpolitik and spiritual beliefs, not only within cultures, but even within individual people. Even now, I suppose every day we do things partly for some of us for religious reasons and partly for practical reasons. There's a big debate, well, a debate in my country about to what extent do Catholic housewives use birth control? The answer, Almost universally. How do they explain that to themselves? Have they come up with religious explanations or do they in fact simply say, well, the priests don't understand this issue, so I'm going to be practical. So even among modern people there are sort of warring visions that are both spiritual and practical. And I think we shouldn't assume that one group of people is completely dominated by part of that and another group of people more dominant, dominated by the practicality.

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[Josie Santee]

I'm Josie Santee, health coach, wellness editor and host of the Every Girl podcast where we cut through the noise with realistic, expert backed advice to help you thrive in every category of life while still loving the person that you already are. And part of loving yourself is being really authentic to you, including the clothes you wear. In partnership with Nordstrom, we're helping you update your spring wardrobe so your style is fit for your best self. Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands like Skims, Mango Free People and Princess polly, all under $100. From trending sneakers to beauty must haves, we've curated the styles that you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pickup. Make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores [e-mail].

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes, none of us are coherent selves, right? I'm struck by the fact that the Aztecs had numerous female deities. Did that represent how they treated women in their society? Or is that optimistic thinking?

[Camilla Townsend]

No, I don't think it is. Again, Aztec culture gradually changed as it became more gravitated towards sort of more dependent on war and warriors. There's no question that what we might call a machista or warrior ethos grew and that I would argue that women's sort of roles became more circumscribed. But. But nevertheless, even in the worst of it, Aztec women or Nahuatl speaking women had a great deal of power. We mustn't sort of get confused and imagine, for example, the Islamic world or the ancient Middle east where women were expected to be veiled or stay at home, at least not at all. Women were in the markets, women were in the courtyards, women were present when the singing and the political discussions was going on. And in fact, sometimes women even sang and talked, although we don't know how much. There's nothing, nothing in the sources that would indicate that men thought women should be seen and not heard, or not seen and not heard, not at all. Some of the mythic stories that have been taken to be emblematic of a deep misogyny, I think, were not really that. So the most famous example would be Coyol Schalki, Bell woman. There's a famous flat sculptor in Mexico City. You can see it if you go to see their templo mayorne, the image of Koyoshaka's sister, of their tutelary God who had been thrown to earth and whose dismembered body is then lying there for all to see. And this just seems so clear, you know, the male God throws the female down and there her dismembered body is to be danced on by others. So it's been taken as sort of symbolic of their sort of horrible views of women. But if you read the actual story in Nahuatl, and it survives in a couple of different versions that are closely related but not identical because these were oral stories that were written down, it becomes clear that it's kind of a parable about the human condition. The koyo shauki becomes very. She's supposed to inherit power. She's the eldest daughter. She becomes very jealous when she learns that her mother has taken a new lover and is going to have a different child. And so she decides she wants to kill her mother. She's so angry. But the baby in the mom's belly hears this and comes out sort of fully born like Athena, right? And fights for mom and kills his sister and throws her down. And then the storyteller talks about the horror of this and says even the birds were horrified. Even the Birds left the valley when they saw what had happened. So it's not so much that the story vindicates Koyolshauki, but it certainly isn't celebrating the brother either for punishing this bad girl. It's just a story about family trauma and jealousy and pain and rage and what happens when people are violent or when the gods are violent and how one wouldn't want this. Even the birds don't want it. So when you know everything, I think it's a much a story about female power and women being part of politics, as it is about hating women or oppressing women. Although you could say that that's also buried in the story. So it's a world in which men are still strong enough to beat up on women. That's there, but it's also a world in which men are afraid of women, and women are involved in these various sort of cosmic fights. So it's a complicated picture. And I would not say that I, at any point, have gotten a sense. Sense of hatred of women. Not at all.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Okay, using the sources that we have, both the Spanish and the indigenous sources, can we get a sense of how the Spanish Conquest altered religious practice?

[Camilla Townsend]

That is a wonderful question. And fortunately, there are many scholars who have studied this and are still studying it. About two generations ago, it was thought that the Spaniards just came in, baptized. Everyone told them that they were going to hell if they continued to do what they were doing. And so everyone came over to Christianity. There was a famous book by a Frenchman called the Spiritual Conquest of Mexico. It was just assumed that now scholars are becoming more and more cognizant of the fact that many of the indigenous people listened and partly adopted these interesting ideas about monotheism, et cetera, but not fully and not wholly that sometimes the word syncretism is used. And to this day, one could argue that the Catholicism that is present in Mexico looks very different from the Catholicism present, for instance, in Spain. So you had a world in which bits and pieces of Christian tradition were being incorporated, Remember, in a world where there had been many gods and many divine forces and lots of war, it had been common practice to adopt bits and pieces of your enemy's religion when they came to live among you as triumphal conquerors. So that was perfectly normal and natural for them to do. Eventually, of course, what we recognize as Christianity within two to three generations, what we recognize as fully present in some of the sources that I read, there are again, sort of funny statements. One old man said, yes, every seventh day they wanted us to go To a certain town, I think was Tepeaca. And we went, but we really didn't know what it was all about. And they used the word to see mass. They didn't go to hear mass or go to mass. They went, would go to see mass, meaning, watch these Spaniards do their funny things, okay? And sometimes when they were describing costuming from past eras, the elders would say, yes, the priest used to wear a big, tall, you know, headdress like a tiara. It didn't look much like. Or it did look a lot like what the bishop wears today, you know, so they were watching almost like anthropologists would watch the development of Christianity in front of them. But all of this to say that, of course, eventually there was a real effect. Even now, though, in Nahuatl speaking pockets of Mexico, like up in the La Huasteca on the Atlantic coast, you can find devoted practitioners of old religion mixed with some Christian ideas, of course, but still more profoundly the old religion. So even now, that still is a small, albeit a small, part of Mexican culture. I have a friend, an indigenous woman, who grew up no longer speaking Nahuatl, but every Sunday they would go to the tema, the sweat bath. And she had no idea that this was something unusual or indigenous. She just thought that everyone in Mexico went to the Temaxcal on Sundays. So it's sometimes present, even in ways that the people themselves aren't fully cognizant of.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

That's so interesting and gives us a bit of an idea of how slow cultural changes at least happens over generations, if not hundreds of years. But I imagine that with the fall of Tetnochtitlan, with this moment of conquest, there must have come a fear of cultural erasure. So how did those who survived adapt under Spanish control?

[Camilla Townsend]

Yes, you're absolutely right. For people who were very aware, and certainly the old former elites were very aware of this, that their culture could be erased. Some of them actually uttered the statements that, you know, that I'm reading today, and now it's because they specifically said, we must do this or we will lose everything, and that people will not remember. And I want everyone to remember, to remember from generation to generation. May they please remember. They would go on quite a long time that this is to be remembered. And so they began to dictate many of these histories. Much of what we have now about the conquest and the years before is due to these indigenous men, and again, mostly men, although there may have been women involved in ways we're not quite sure of yet, who were super concerned about the Possibility that there'd be total cultural amnesia and that by the time 10 generations, 12 generations later, by the time you and I were talking, that no one would even know that they had had complex religious beliefs, complex political ideals, realities, et cetera. So they busily dictated and others wrote, and then many would copy. Sometimes we have closely related texts. You can tell that, you know, someone has written this, and then he's given it to eight friends, each of whom have made a copy. So they became very devoted to this. But within a few more generations, even that practice died. It died in different places at different times, depending on how remote the area was or how many Spaniards had settled there. Obviously, the more Christians and the more Spaniards are in an area, the faster this cultural transition occurs. But in certain towns, in certain areas, even in the late 1600s, you still find it. By the 18th century, to the extent that you still have indigenous memories being written down, they're somewhat forced, you know, somewhat artificial. They'll say things that are simply not accurate, but they still care. And they don't want great great grandma's, you know, notions to be lost, but they're no longer in direct touch with them. This is true around the world, you know, as language begins to go. We see this in the. In the United States all the time. You know, immigrant children and grandchildren wanting to maintain ties to the past. But as they lose touch with the language and the place, it becomes very difficult. We think about this for ourselves. How many of us really know more? Our grandparents? Yes, a little bit. Maybe our great grandparents. But beyond that, very few of us know much about the people from our past, because it's very hard to maintain that direct tie to the past.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Was there anything that you can see that they were happy to introduce into their daily lives?

[Camilla Townsend]

Absolutely. They loved candles. They had. Had pine pitch torches, but those are very big and very smoky, and you can use them outside. You can't bring them into warehouse. So one of them actually said, it elongates the day. This is news you can use. Right? Okay. They also loved locks. They had had a large sort of imagery around reed chests. They had woven baskets with lids because many human beings want a little bit of privacy. We want a little bit of order. We want to be able to keep things that we want to keep. So they loved reed chests, but the idea of a lock with keys so that nobody else could touch your stuff, this turns out to be, I think, quite universal. They really, really liked that and adopted that quite quickly. They liked Roman Alphabet. One man actually said, we can no Longer read these old glyphs because they had had glyphic writing that was pictorial. You know, you would look at say a burning temple and then that would remind the speaker, oh yes, this is where I'm supposed to talk about the defeat of the village of Kotitlan. But they realized quickly that what the Roman Alphabet or any phonetic transcription system can do, you can record human speech, which means there's no limit to what you can write down. And they learned it even spread beyond the Spaniards. That is, Nahuas were teaching Nahuas the phonetic transcription system so that you get them writing things down sometimes with what we would say is atrocious spelling because they had never been in a European classroom, but they were using it. So if you, if you know Nahuatl, you can figure out what they were writing. What else did they really love? Oh, metal farm tools. You know, a digging stick with an obsidian blade at the end is useful, but a metal hoe or a plaque, Horses, how they loved using and riding horses. So there were many parts of it. They had always been kind of open to other cultures, beliefs and their weaving. They borrowed cotton from the south of Mexico. They were used to the idea of seeing value in other people's stuff. And there were many parts of European culture likewise that they valued. Just as today there are many parts of indigenous culture now that we European descended peoples, I really realizing is pretty awesome. They're weaving their music, their food, all sorts of things.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

There are so many extraordinary and wonderful insights you're giving us today into Aztec culture. I want to ask you, why have the sources that you're drawing on to give us these details not been used more?

[Camilla Townsend]

Right. I've asked myself that too. At partly it's just the language barrier that is if you can't read Nahuatl, they're not accessible. So that's probably the biggest part of the problem. You know, most of the work on the Aztecs to this day, sadly, is done based on either archaeological remains or Spanish sources because they're more accessible to people of European descent. On the other hand, scholars are pretty good at learning languages. It's one of the things we do. I mean, you look in the Old world, especially in the uk, uk, the numbers of scholars who can read all sorts of Near Eastern and Far Eastern languages, et cetera. So one might say, well, why hasn't more been done? And I think part of the problem is the nature of the sources. So for instance, a great deal of work has been done with Nahuatl sources that were written hand in hand with the friars. Those who have studied Nahuatl, the language, have liked to work with something like the Florentine Codex, which was done. It's a great 12 volume encyclopedia of pre conquest life that was done with the orchestration of Bernardino de Sagun, a famous Franciscan friar. It's orderly, it's designed just like a European, you know, Renaissance European encyclopedia. So we read it and we understand it pretty clearly. This is the section on their dogs and this is the section on their turkeys. We can read this and we understand it. But the other sources, the ones that were done in the privacy of their own homes, you know, asking their grandparents or their great uncle to tell the history or read the prayer and then transcribed. When you first read these, they can be very alienating. They didn't do things the way Europeans did things. So for instance, after every war there is a very, you know, at first confusing account of giving the names of different girls and where they were, if they had lost the war, where they were taken off to be imprisoned or as prisoner wives, or where they were taken to be sacrificed. It took me a long time to figure out. This is actually kind of a chart that they're using to demonstrate who won the war and by how much. Because if the girls were just taken off to be honored wives, then maybe their village had lost the battle, but it was close. If they were being dragged off by their hair to be sacrificed, it was a total devastation. So it took me a while to figure out why they were doing this. And a European would have done it differently. He would have said that battle was terrible and we were utterly destroyed instead of giving a little chart about where the girls were taken. So it takes a lot of patience. I was working on this for about 20 years before I be to see these patterns. And I think that may be part of the problem. Scholars are under a lot of pressure now to publish or perish, to work quickly and present something. And it's easier to look at say the Florentine Codex and say, ah, this is how they raise their turkeys. I can look at that, I can read that, I can translate the nahuat, I can explain it in English. So I'm not sure it could be just part of the political moment. I mean, until quite recently, one could argue that people were interested in Native American in a more European descended peoples were interested in Native Americans in a more condescending way. Yes, we want them in the story, but we don't necessarily want to know what they were really thinking. Like the appeal of the white gods, you know, that lasted until quite recently. So it could be, Jess, that we happen now to finally be living in a moment where lots of people really want to know what the Native Americans were thinking. And that drives people like me to work on these more difficult sources. But I don't know exactly. It's a good question. Why now? Why did it take so long? Right. I'm not sure.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Those are all very good answers. Finally, then, I suppose it feels that there may still yet be a danger of what we call othering and exoticizing cultures like the Aztecs as we tell their stories. If you could change understandings about the Aztec empire in an instant, what one thing would you most wish to change?

[Camilla Townsend]

I guess if I was limited to one thing, I would say that they had a rich sense of humor. If people keep that in mind, I think they will not allow themselves to sort of assert some of the more ridiculous things that have been asserted. If they believe that these people like us, liked to laugh, they'll be more likely to treat them as human beings and think about what they're saying about them before they say it or before they write it, at least.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

That's so wonderful because it goes to the heart of remembering that these people were people and not fundamentally different to us. Even if their practices were very different, their beliefs were very different. And I was really touched by what you said about being 10 or 12 generations, because it suddenly makes it very clear how close these are to us in time.

[Camilla Townsend]

It really is true. And we think. Right, exactly. I mean, for some families, it's more generations than. But for those of us who come from families where you have children in your 30s, when you think about it, that brings us back to a time period. It's not as long ago as we might first think, right?

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Professor Townsend, thank you so much for this wonderful insight into Aztec culture. And it's just the very beginning of the work that you have done. But it's been just wonderful to get this sense from you.

[Camilla Townsend]

Ovid, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Thank you. Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher, Alice Smith, and my producer, Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susannah Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors from History Hit.

[Camilla Townsend]

Foreign.

[Josie Santee]

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