A (4:06)

As every great story goes, you know, it started from PhD research. The Quakers didn't just pop up out of nowhere. And so as I was doing my research, I started really looking into the Civil wars because you kind of have to, because it immediately precedes, you know, essentially the birth of Quakerism. And the more I would uncover about the human experience of the Civil wars for Day to day, people kind of realize that this is actually where the story has to start. It doesn't start in, you know, at Furbank Fell in Cumbria in 1652, when George Fox famously gives this sermon to a thousand seekers in what sounds like a very picturesque scene. No, no, no, we've got to go back. It is very much as you would expect. There's a lot of trauma in war. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot happening in the 1640s, and not only in terms of civil wars, but when you think about sort of when Quakerism starts, Charles the first wasn't executed that long ago. And you have to think for the people. It's kind of like, what on earth is happening? Everything feels very experimental. It probably feels quite temporary, scary. It probably does feel like the end times are coming. And so it was very important to me. That's where I set the scene. And so in looking at what was the environment that sort of made, well, at the time, which were very radical ideas, what made adopting these ideas worth the risk? Because it wasn't just a matter of you decide to become a Quaker. Great, here's your membership card. There's a lot of personal risk that the early Quakers endured in order to spread this message that they believed in. Like, I mean, this was it for them, this was it.

B (6:06)

I mean, it's so interesting, that picture you've just painted of the psychological state of people by the early 1650s. I mean, we know that proportion of people who died in the Civil War was higher than it was in the First World War. We've got all of the anarchy that came with the Civil War. The world turned upside down with the King being Executed, monarchy being abolished. And yes, this question of where do we go from here? And I think that's really helpful to set the scene. And then you focus interestingly in your book on Herefordshire and Worcestershire as kind of case study regions. And so what about these counties made them particularly fertile ground for early Quakerism?

A (6:51)

I felt that the same reasons that they are important in the Civil wars, there's a constant sort of back and forth happening within this region of England. There are the same reasons why Quakers found so much success in these areas. There's a lot of geography here in terms of sort of. We've got, you know, we've got major rivers going through these counties. We have important towns like Worcester, like Hereford, but then also, you know, there's a big population here in sort of essentially sort of in the West Midlands. And so I did sort of find that it was an area that was receptive. And I felt like these are two counties that really did experience. They experience a totality of war. And I feel that that is sort of when Quakers are coming to town. Now, fair, you know, let's. Let's not be under any false impression that when the Quakers are coming into town, everyone falls in line and everyone is delighted to see that couldn't be further from the truth. But they're very successful in these two counties. And I think that a lot of it is just because they were ready. They were ready for this message. They had experienced all of that, all of the bad, essentially. They had experienced the chaos and brutality of war. So they were ready for something better. And I think that that's what I find so interesting about the Quaker story is that these are people who are very much. They're compelled by fear. You know, they're moved by the trauma that they've experienced, but they also have this almost blind hope in the future. And they were galvanized, like, once they had this message, they were galvanized to be the change that they wanted to see in the world. And so I find that the whole human experience of becoming a quaker in the 1650s especially, I feel like it's such a good story, to be fair, like, when it comes to sort of, when we're looking at the 17th century, there's war, obviously. I've gone on and on about civil wars. There's also sort of like quite interesting stories about the monarchy, but these little stories about, you know, about, certainly about the Quakers, right, that gets lost. And it was lost to me. It was a story that, like, I had no idea that Quakers had this Sort of edgier side Quakers have, they have this kind of this, this wild past that has been, it's, it's almost been buried by centuries, for all intents and purposes, good people and good deeds. And so when you tell people like, oh, there's actually they were really quite radical, really quite disruptive, sometimes a little dark, people are like, wait, what? Quakers? And so that's one of the most rewarding things about being a historian is that, you know, you can change people's perceptions and say, look, actually let's peel this layer off. This is really cool.

B (10:03)

Yes, you're disrupting the narrative. And actually one of the places that you do that is this idea that the early Quakers had a theology that was entirely novel. You, you suggest that that's not the case. So from whom were they borrowing their ideas?

A (10:20)

So during the Civil wars there are a lot of radical religious ideas. Sort of censorship is very much out the window. In fairness, the government has more important things to worry about in this, in this decade. And so there's a lot of freedom of ideas. These radical religious ideas are being spread through the printing press, which is like it, you know, there's an explosion of print media essentially in this decade. A lot of it is used, you know, royalists versus parliamentarians and sort of, you know, essentially doing, you know, PR and propaganda. But then you also have these radical religious groups that are using it, you know, to spread ideas. These ideas are also being spread via parliamentarian armies, particularly the New Model Army. The ideas are sort of spreading around the countryside. And so in this period, so. Well, in this period, the late 1640s, George Fox, who for all intents and purposes is the founder of Quakerism, he is a young man, he is essentially, as I like to say, he's going on a gap year and as you do during war times, right. And so he is traveling sort of around with, around places that are controlled by Parliament. And so there's no way that he's not reading, hearing these ideas that are coming through. Some of them are, you know, when we, you know, when we're thinking about sort of, okay, what, what are these ideas? What are these ideas? Well, we've got, so it's probably the most exciting. Most short lived are the Ranters. The Ranters are, they're very spicy, you know, when it comes to beliefs, right. Their idea is that we're all born in God's image, therefore there is no sin. And so, hey ho, let's have a free for all. That is, you know, their ethos is let's party while we can, essentially. And so, so these are ideas that are sort of bubbling up to the surface and of course people are very quickly like, whoa, I'm not interested in these heathens. Like, this is a little bit too much. But there's a little bit, I mean, there's, you know, they're trying to sort of back up this belief with some scripture and some, you know, some base, some basis in the Bible and Jesus. It's like, okay, there are groups like Seekers. And so Seekers are essentially, they're, they're doing what they say on the tin. Like they are seeking that divine revelation and so waiting for it. Seekers become incredibly important to our early Quaker story. At the very onset we have Baptists again, sort of, you know, these ideas of adult baptism coming in. So all of these ideas are bubbling around and George Fox is sort of on his spiritual walkabout amongst war torn England and sort of like he's not satisfied with any of the religious options at all. And so the way I kind of see it, which could be quite controversial, but this is what we do as historians, this is what we do. It's like, I think that he's kind of taking some of these ideas and cherry picking some things and sort of creating this really nice looking cherry pie, sort of like, I've heard a little bit of this. I'm going to take this idea. I like this one. I'm going to take this one. I like this one. And so, yeah, so he comes to, basically we're going back to Furbank Fell, which I mentioned earlier in Cumbria in 1652, George Fox has this, you know, this is like the moment he's preaching in front of a thousand, an audience of a thousand seekers. He's presenting them with this brilliant cherry pie of religious ideas. The Seekers have been waiting for this, they've been waiting for this moment, they've been waiting for these ideas for this person really to kind of like take them into the direction and that's it. Like, once the Seekers are involved, you think that's a big audience. Once the Seekers are involved, George Fox is making like really important connections within this first initial group in Cumbria and that's where it all takes off.

B (14:39)

So you've mentioned the importance of printing, amplifying the message. But it's starting with speech. It's starting with these dissenting preachers like George Fox, who are speaking in front of huge groups and changing minds. So I want to ask you a question. Why do you use the phrase plague of Northern locusts to describe These preachers.

A (15:04)

So this is not my phrase. I have a lot of northern friends. I would never refer to them as locusts. Essentially, when they're coming down south. You know, that is sort of one of the things that the people, the local authorities, any, you know, opponents to the Quakers, that's one of the first things that they can catch on. It's like, oh, this is a plague of Northern locusts. Like, these are northerners. And like, what, like, what are they bringing into our communities? And so there is, like this, There is this sort of, like, there's this real divide, which unfortunately we, we still have to this day. But, but yeah, there is, There is like that automatic northerners. And that's the attitude that's taken is used as a way to discredit them, which is ridiculous. But that's what, you know. But again, they're sort of having the local authorities who are trying to keep the peace. Again, it's such a. It's such a delicate time in the early to mid-1650s. Like, things are like, you know, we've got to. We've got to keep everyone in line. These Quakers are coming, these northerners are coming down and disrupting and. And again, like, this is, it's the, you know, it's, it's, it's what they're doing. It's what these radical Quaker preachers, these missionaries are doing when they come down south and when they start spreading the message, you know, it's, it's, it's not so much sort of. It's not so much what Quakers believe in. I don't think, I mean, fair enough for the time, the beliefs were radical, but I don't think it's necessarily the beliefs that are causing the problems. It's how they are spreading this message.

B (16:42)

Yes, because of plague of locusts in northern or otherwise, suggests that it's catching on very quickly. This is going through a community and the ideas are passing from one to another. No delay at all.

A (16:55)

That's right. Again, this is critical to the success of the early movement. It's like, yeah, you can have, you have your passionate preachers. Quaker's right about how brilliant they were. And so the numbers speak for themselves. The fact that Quakerism is still here today speaks for itself. Preachers are coming in, they are going into communities, holding meetings. It's a compelling message. The way that the message is spread to these communities is very, very powerful. But you've got to have grassroots communities. Right. You can't. Like, these Quaker ministers are not. They're traveling like they're going through these towns. A lot of them are. Essentially, once the local authorities sort of get an idea of what they're going to be doing when they come into town, these preachers are essentially doing a tour of the prisons, 17th century Prisons in England. And so when you have these, you know, these core people in prison, the movement doesn't survive if they haven't galvanized the local communities. And this is what they do so well, is that people find the message so compelling that they will move heaven and earth essentially, to make sure it's successful, to save as many people as they can.

B (18:11)

Can I ask you a couple of questions about that? We'll come back to the message, but I'm wondering about personality here. You know, to what extent is it George Fox himself, his own leadership style that's vital here? How is it shaping the success of the movement in those early days?

A (18:30)

From what I can gather, George Fox is a very important figure. He is able to inspire, he is able to move these people to uproot their livelihoods to go and preach. But there are also some really important first converts. So people like James Naylor, who's from Yorkshire, and he ends up dying in 1660, but from 1652, he is arguably George Fox's most important ally. And again, this is somebody who is known as a gifted preacher. As the 1650s sort of draw to a close, he begins to sort of. James Naylor sort of becomes this very almost cult like figure. Women are particularly drawn to James Naylor. But then sort of things sort of start happening where George. It almost becomes. James Naylor becomes too big and he becomes like George Fox and the rest of the early leadership can kind of see, like, we kind of need to do something about him because he's way too popular. And James Naylor is overshadowing the message. There are other very important first converts, like Richard Farnworth. Richard Farnworth, again, he is sort of one of the first. Sort of, like I said, one of the first Quaker converts. He is a young man, he is a very prolific writer, but also known as a very powerful preacher. It seems to be the theme is that these very prolific, talented writers who happen to be very good speakers as well, you could say they're a triple threat, right? They're great at writing, great at speaking and sort of having that sort of personal touch with people that it was, you know, it was very. I keep saying the word compelling, but I really can't think of another word to really describe just how deeply people were moved by these early Quaker leaders.

B (20:42)

And you've given a sense that there would have been a great desire for healing in the aftermath of the previous decade, but also that they might have felt they were living in the end times. So how do you think their apocalyptic tone would have affected their reception?

A (21:00)

So now you find this in sort of, and certainly in early Quaker writing. Not everyone, not all of the early Quaker writers have that sort of apocalyptic vibe to them. There's a lot of urgency in their words and, you know, they're trying again, as I said, they're trying to save as many people as possible. But we do get a lot of apocalyptic imagery. If you don't follow us, if you don't join us, you will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Christ is coming soon. These kinds of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of Lake of Fire imagery. And certainly you feel that they very strongly believe this. But I also think that it's, I think it's probably, it's not surprising, it's not surprising that they would feel like that just because so much has gone on, so much is uncertain. It's like, oh, yeah, this definitely feels like an end time scenario. So this is how I'm going to write. I'm gonna be heavily influenced by the Book of Revelation and just sort of go with that tone to try and scare people into joining.

B (22:11)

Now, not everyone, as you've said, took to the Quakers, to put it mildly. So why do you think the Quakers seemed so threatening to authority figures, especially, I suppose, the established church at the.

A (22:25)

Time, because they weren't shy about it. So they would come into towns and they would burst into churches during services and they would condemn the minister and tell the congregation, you are following a hireling priest who is really just leading you astray. And this is in the middle of service and the people are kind of like, wait, what? Like, how dare you? How. Like this is essentially, it's like, this is my safe space. Like, why are you invading like this? And so obviously the minister, you know, the church is not going to respond well to this. The congregation is also not going to respond well. And what I find truly mind boggling is when Quakers are writing about these experiences, they are really, they're just, they cannot believe the reception that they get from the congregation. And the congregation are essentially chasing them out with, with sticks and beating them in, you know, in the churchyard, saying, get out of here. And the Quakers are like, wait, what? I can't believe this. It's like, oh, come on, guys, what did you Expect. And so this is what they're doing, is that they are going into churches and they are being disruptive. They are making themselves known, they are breaking the law. One of the things, sort of like, sort of when we talk about. When we talk about sort of like what Quakers, like what Quakers believe in, they don't believe in ordained clergy. They don't believe that you need ostentatious churches. Their belief is about this divine revelation that anybody can have. You can have this direct connection to God anytime, Anyone, anytime, anywhere. You don't need these beautiful churches. You don't need this minister, this priest who is, you know, trained at Oxford or Cambridge. You know, it's like, you know, you're good to go. You are good to go. But then sort of like, socially, which I think, again, more radically in terms of their beliefs, is that they believe in equality. So not only between men and women, which is, you know, at the very onset, I mean, that is. That is radical, is that this idea that women can be preachers as well. It's like, girl, if you have something to say, you say it. You do. You do. You girl. And so you do have women ministers. And they're not just staying put in their local area. Like, they are going abroad. I think you recent. Yeah. You recently spoke with Naomi Baker about her book Voices of Thunder.

B (25:07)

I did.

A (25:08)

And so she goes into these early Quaker women ministers and the extraordinary things that they're doing. Like, I'm a big fan of her, big fan of her work. And so. So, yeah, so there's this equality that Quakers believe in between men and women. Great. But they also believe in equality between social classes, which is where things get a little uncomfortable for people. So one of the things that they do not do is they don't tip their hat. So if they're around a social superior, they are not doing this. They're in prison for this sort of thing. And they're. They're in prison and stay in prison for just rejecting these, essentially these social norms. They believe that, you know, believing that everyone is equal. They're speaking weird. And so they're saying. They're calling everyone using terms like the. And thou. Like, that is not cool at the time.

B (26:01)

Right. So it's like tu toe in French. Like to use tout rather than the formal vous. That's the equivalent.

A (26:07)

Exactly, exactly. And so it's sort of these things where they're just rejecting sort of things that are just normal in society. And when they're not doing these little things, it's very. It's it's seen as hugely disruptive.

B (26:40)

Yes. It's so interesting, isn't it, how those small markers convey so much. Am I right in thinking that it is the Quakers who start us shaking hands as the alternative to the doffing of the cap?

A (26:52)

Oh my gosh, I have no idea. You have stumped me there. That would make sense though. That would make sense. Yeah.

B (27:01)

I think I read that years and years ago in Norbert Elias's Civilizing. The civilizing process. But we'd have to go and check that out. So there we go. There's a question for our listeners to come back to us if they find any information about it. So what are the Anglican clergy warning that the Quakers would do?

A (27:17)

They are essentially, Quakers are seen as being a pathway to hell. Like, follow these people at your peril.

B (27:25)

This is.

A (27:25)

These people are not a good idea. And so that's why at the onset, like the local authorities have no, they've got no time for this. And so for the smallest infraction, Quakers are being thrown into jail. That is the easiest way to sort of get rid of this menace. These locusts that are coming into town is like, we need to throw them in prison. Throw them in prison. And we'll essentially, whatever a 17th century prison has in it, let that sort of be judged jury and executioner in many cases. Because like I said, a lot of the early Quakers, a lot of sort of the best, like the most passionate preachers and writers die in prison. Certainly they're gone by the. But they're gone by the 1670s. So, so, yeah, so there is this, there's a real alarm. There are a lot of alarm bells because of what they're preaching. Like, I mean, they're essentially, they're going against everything that the church believes in. Like, it's just like no churches, no clergy. It's like. And the, like, you knew the church must be like, who are these people? The audacity of you to come into these communities and just causing a ruckus like this. So, yeah, so any opportunity that the local authorities had that they could put them in prison, get rid or try and move them on. So it was, you know, a lot of times it was like, you know, there, there are sort of, there are cases where, where a Quaker will be imprisoned. The judge will say, hey, for this example, this is actually what happened. Humphrey Smith. Hey, Humphrey, I don't want you to be in prison if you just say, just tell me you're not going to hold another meeting in town and you can get out of here. And Humphrey Smith was like, no, thanks. A year later, the same judge says, Humphrey, like, just say you're not going to have another meeting and you can leave. You can be another local authority's problem. He's like, nope. And Humphrey Smith ends up dying in Winchester jail. But he did have two opportunities to leave, which is so like, you know, as. As you're reading it, it is sometimes, sometimes when you're reading, you know, this history, when you're reading these meeting minutes and court records, it kind of unfolds like a drama. You're just like, I want you to choose, make a better choice, but you won't.

B (29:54)

So, yes, it's interesting, isn't it, what the conscience leads want to do. And I was struck by this picture you're painting of the sort of vehemence of reaction to the Quakers, because it suggests that actually the social order, the religious order of Restoration England is fragile. Even after the Republic, the interregnum, even after the Civil wars, everything in theory has been put back in place. And yet in the 1660s, we've still got people reacting very sharply to these challenges to authority.

A (30:33)

Yeah, there's just no time for it. And so during the 1650s, sort of, Cromwell is tolerant of the Quakers until they can no longer be ignored because they're causing so many problems up and down the country. Then again, sort of when Charles II ascends to the throne, he is also quite tolerant and finds them almost slightly entertaining until it becomes very obvious that this is an actual threat to the state. And the 1660s, there is a series of legislation which is known as the Clarendon Code, which they really come down hard on Quakers, very hard. And so it is, it is. You know, again, it's always, when you're reading this very early history of Quakers, it is a miracle. It is a miracle. I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it. I'm going to be bold. It is a miracle that they survived because they really. All the cards were dealt against them. Again, Quakers are not doing themselves any favors. But certainly through the 1660s, you know, this. Actually, it starts in the late 16, 1650s as well. But there's a realization that if we don't change our ways, we are not going to survive. And so you do start to see a lot more organization and you do start to see that, you know what, the end times are not coming. We have to live in this world like we have to be part. Like we have to be part of a society that, you know, that the Quakers, you know, in this, even into the 1650s, 1670s, 1660s, 1670s, they find wider society abhorrent. They can't stand sort of all the things that, you know, most people would find a delightful release from, like, just from the mundane world. Things like maple dancing, things like drinking. These are the things that Quakers are just like, oh, society is so garbage. Like, oh, can't we do better than this? But then as time passes and it's like, okay, Jesus isn't coming. He's not coming. There's the lack of earth. The urgency is sort of like, it, you know, it wanes. But then they also. It's like, okay, we're not in this world, but we have to exist. And so this is where they start sort of becoming very concerned about how they're viewed by the outside world. And this is where things like discipline start to creep in. And so when you're going through the Quaker meeting minutes and they're sort of. They're policing their members for things like, you know, there'll be, you know, John Smith is spending a bit extravagantly and the meeting will send two members out to go and just have a chat with him about that. Or if someone is, you know, if a member is being unkind to his wife and children, you know, two members are charged with sort of, they, they need to go and sort this out. You know, it's just. They're very concerned with how they're viewed because this is how they're gonna survive. And so, so it's, it's, you know, there's organization and there's. There's intense discipline amongst the members.

B (33:49)

It's very interesting because I worked on the Calvinists, the Huguenots, in France about a century earlier, and they're doing exactly the same sort of thing, like calling each other out for laughing too much or for being angry or their wives. And yet, of course, it's not a sort of discipline that can be sustained, but from the position of the outside world, actually they are being prosecuted a lot in order to try and instill a kind of public peace. This is the Quakers, at least. And so can we talk a bit about what the Quakers take to be persecution? I mean, how did they cope with it?

A (34:41)

AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin.AI this holiday season, Instacart is bringing magic to the people who make it magic for others. Get delivery and deals on everything you need this season. Whether it's a last minute holiday decor, emergency coverage for the holiday party, or just avoiding going out in the cold, Instacart is here. Plus November 24th to December 23rd is deal month with savings from your favorite retailers and deals on grocery, electronics, beauty, toys and more. Download the Instacart app to get a little magic delivered today. This is one of my favorite, this is one of my favorite subjects in terms of early Quaker history. Is it persecution or is it prosecution because they are breaking the law and being punished for it. There are certainly cases, again written by Quakers, we take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But you do have situations where the local authorities are being quite, quite zealous in their punishment and they have to be. If they are arrested for holding an unlawful meeting, the fines are quite heavy because they, you know, they're trying to, they're essentially trying to cripple this movement. And how do you do that? Oh, with money. And so this is where sort of like these very important, well placed early members come into play. Because within sort of these communities, you know, there are people who can handle the brunt of these financial penalties. And so there's financially like, there are fines being dished out to Quakers who are breaking the law, who are holding unlawful meetings. Whatever crime they're being accused of, there's that sort of penalty. There are also cases where the local authorities are sort of like targeting the poor members of the Quaker community. It's February, so it's not a nice time of year in this country. And they are taking all the betting away. Like all the betting. If a Quaker is coming into court and there's a case of a man in his 70s who goes into the court and the judge has them take away his jacket, take away his coat, that's mine now, you're not leaving this place with a coat. And so you do see there are some things where it is quite cruel. In some cases, like Quakers are breaking the law. I find it difficult to dispute that. Local authorities are quite heavy handed in ways because they feel like this is the most effective, the best way to that they can sort of put a stop to this. And so there are certainly cases where they're overly persecuted, but I maintain that they are breaking the law, the local authorities are doing what needs to be done in order to keep the peace.

B (38:26)

So it's sort of both, isn't it? It's both prosecution and persecution or certainly.

A (38:32)

In this time period. The way that Quakers are recording their history is, I mean, obviously it's gonna be very deeply one sided. You know, it's just like, how dare, you know, how dare they come after us like this? You know, we're just trying to save people's souls. You know, what is our crime? This is the other thing that Quakers are doing is that everything. So like the hat, honor the, the and thou, all of these things, they are backing it up with scripture. They know the Bible like the back of their hand. You know, in their writing there is this need to demonstrate this biblical knowledge. Like when you're trying to convince people that these religious ideas are, they are very good, you should come and join us. Like, you have to show that you know what you're talking about. And I think that Quakers do an excellent job of that in their Quaker writing. I mean, it is Quaker, early Quaker pamphlets are drowning in scripture and sort of see, like, see this Bible verse, See this Bible verse, like every other line. And sometimes, you know, it'll be in the margins as well. They're cramming scripture in to defend what they're doing as frequently as they possibly can.

B (39:39)

Can we talk about an example of Quaker resistance to legal authority, which is the famous case of Susanna Pearson. What does this story reveal?

A (39:48)

So this story, it really, so it's about again at the onset. So when Quakers are, you know, saying that this is the way essentially to quote from the Mandalorian, this is the way people are saying, prove it, prove it. And so one of those things that they need to prove, they're asked to prove things by miracles. And so Quakers are asked like, okay, perform a miracle for me. Prove it. And so Susanna Pearson. This is my favorite chapter in the whole book. I love this story. So essentially what happens is a young Quaker man in the city of, he's, he works in the city of Worcester, he's an apprentice. He essentially, it's a Friday afternoon, three o', clock, clocking out time. And he tells his, he tells his boss, you know, I have talked to Jesus, he's told me to come and meet him and take him by the hand. His boss is like, okay, that's. I mean, his boss is a Quaker as well, but even his boss was kind of like, oh, this is an interesting way to say goodbye on a Friday. The young man's name is William Poole. So he essentially is not seen again on the Sunday. You know, his family, people are worried about him. Like, where is William on Sunday? So this is just a couple days later, his clothes are found on the banks of the Severn River. And then a few hours later, his body is found. So it's very quickly, the coroner very quickly decides or determines that this is a suicide. William Poole has drowned himself in the Severn. And so even though he's a Quaker, the evidence suggests strongly, very strongly, almost indisputably, his family are not Quakers, because his family are permitted to bury him in the churchyard at Klein's Church, which is just north of Worcester city center. And so suicide in this period, in early modern period, is. It is the worst sort of death. Like, it is. There is so much shame associated with. Is a sign that, you know that you have essentially, you've given up on God. And so part of the punishment for the family is that, you know, if you're going to bury your child who has killed themselves, you're going to do it under the COVID of darkness because this is exceptionally shameful. So even though William Poole is a Quaker, his family must have had enough sway with the local church that he's allowed to be buried in the churchyard. So it's dusk, so it's before the sun comes up, late February. And so he is being buried. Traditional churchyard burial. William Poole's grieving mother is approached by a Quaker woman named Susanna Pearson. So Susanna Pearson says to this poor grieving mother, I can bring your son back to life. That's pretty bold. That is pretty bold. And his mom, his mother, you know, says, yeah, please do have a go. Those aren't her exact words, but we assume she's obviously given permission. So then the following day, under the COVID of darkness, of course, Susanna Pearson and her accomplices, they dig up William Poole's body. And you have to think, like, It's February, it's 17th century, and he drowned. So this corpse is not going to be in the best condition. So Susanna Pearson removes the shroud from William Poole. And then she starts sort of straddles his body and starts, like, massaging his chest and rubbing her face against his face and commanding him to rise. He doesn't come back to life. It doesn't work. I know. I can see by your face you are stunned he does not come back to life. And so this is a mirror. She's trying to perform a miracle and it's failed. And so it's immediately sort of take like the. The press get wind of this and they have a field day because this is. This is like, oh, this is so embarrassing for the Quakers. We're going to get them. And so part of sort of the. What Susanna Pearson says is that, oh, Jesus waited four days before he brought Lazarus back. I did this too. I did this too soon, like, oopsie. And essentially, Susanna and her accomplices, they rebury William Pool and sort of walk away from the scene of the crime. So it's, like I said, it's reported by the national press. And it, you know, it makes. Quakers are, for a very brief period, are an absolute laughingstock because it's like, I mean, and they're seen as dangerous, very dangerous. Obviously, this is a massive blasphemous act as well. And so Quakers in the early period, Certainly in the 1650s, they felt that they needed to prove their doctrine by miracles. And so this is the. One of. This is my favorite example of a miracle gone wrong. And so, yeah, so there is that need to legitimize to be legitimate. And there is a lot of pressure for things like miracles.

B (45:11)

You've referred already in our conversation to the way that the Quakers in their writings were trying to legitimize through their use of Scripture. But there's a key shift that happens in the 1670s, which is a kind of evolutionary move, as it were, from the Quaker rhetoric goes from being something that's fiery and admonishing to something that is a kind of more measured defense. What is prompting this shift.

A (45:41)

So again, it's very much sort of survival instincts kick in. And like, as I said before, there's, you know, the increasing organization. And one of the things that they do in 1673 that changes the game is that they set up what is called the second Day meeting. And so this is essentially an editorial board. And so any Quaker who wants to publish something, instead of just everyone having a free for all and just like, you know, like publishers, whatever you're compelled by the spirit to do, Quakers need to send their. Essentially, they send their manuscripts to the editorial board, and the editorial board will sort of. They do what an editor does, right? They will say, you know what? This language is a little too spicy. This is too fiery. You know, less. Less condemnation here, a little bit more love. And so that, I feel that that really changes the game because early Quakers are so reliant on the print, on printing press and people reading their materials. And so once they're able to take editorial control of what's going out, it's kind of like the message. It does. You know, it lacks the. The jazziness of the 1650s and 1660s, but it just becomes a lot more.

B (47:04)

Therefore, as we come to an end, what marks the shift from how the Quakers gradually become more tolerant of other Christian denominations? I mean, how does this complicate the popular image of them as radical separatists?

A (47:20)

It feels quite like an organic process as we're going through the 17th century. So you do see sort of in Quaker writing, certainly starting in this late 1670s, as we go towards the 1700s, is that you do see there's a lot more acceptance. You do see that there's an accept, like they are putting down in print and acceptance of other denominations. And it's very much a. You know what, this works for us. This works for us. And they sort of. It just, it feels like. I say it feels organic the way that they go from just being sort of like just hellfire and brimstone to realizing things need to change, we need to interact with the wider world. We have to accept sort of other denominations as well. And so as part of that, there's the Quaker transformation. To this day, I find extraordinary. I find it absolutely wild that in Ohio in the 1880s and that this company, this oatmeal company, is looking for a mascot and it's like, oh, what really defines honesty and integrity? Oh, Quakers. And that's where that comes from because they had this intense glow up and it's. Yeah, it's amazing. Sort of as, you know, certainly in terms of, like, Quaker commerce, Quaker business, you know, as we sort of, as we leave. As we leave the radical early period, you know, it, they do become renowned for honesty, integrity and sort of good business sense. And when you look at the start, it's like, how did we get here? How did we get here? But again, it's, it's, you know, it's. It's the power of organization. It is the power of organization and good leadership. And, yeah, so that's, it's, it's, it's wild that we go from, you know, sort of busting into churches, from digging up people from the dead, to sort of being a global sort of spokesperson for good oatmeal. Like, I just, I don't know how we get there.

B (49:30)

Well, I certainly started my day with some Radical Quaker Oats. Dr. Erica Cannella thank you so much for coming on to give us this insight into this extraordinary period in which the Quakers were founded. It has absolutely turned all our ideas on their head. Thank you so much.

A (49:47)

Thank you so much.

B (49:50)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddow, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line and Not Just the tudors@historyhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tudors From History Hit.