Professor Mark Stoyle (3:44)

Who.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (3:44)

Who controls how people worship? How far can a government reshape a nation's cherished holiday? And what happens when faith and tradition collide? To guide us through this turbulent chapter of English history, I'm joined by Professor Mark Stoyle, historian of the Civil wars and one of the leading scholars of religion and popular culture in 17th century England. His work uncovers how the battle over Christmas reflected a broader contest between authority and conscience, reform and. And resistance, soberness and celebration. I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from history hit. So, Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Professor Mark Stoyle (4:29)

Thank you.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (4:31)

Why Christmas? Why was that a target? Where did the suspicion of Christmas come from?

Professor Mark Stoyle (4:36)

Well, really, the suspicion that grows among sort of Protestant reformers in the 16th century that Christmas is not really sanctioned by Scripture. It's the idea that it's an invented feast, one that's very much associated with Catholicism or popery, as they would have it, so that there's no sort of authority from their point of view of having Christmas. And at the same time, the festivities which have traditionally been associated with it, they see as very bad for all sorts of reasons, encouraging gluttony, idleness, drunkenness, disorder in general. So there's a kind of scriptural, There's a theological reason, but there's also a reason that's based on the whole question of order.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:16)

And so their criticism of it really is that it leads one into drinking too much, into sensuality, into idolatry.

Professor Mark Stoyle (5:28)

Precisely so. And I think also the idea that. I think what particularly revolts them is that this is a day which is supposed to be celebrating Christ, but in fact is leading people to do all sorts of things which seem to be going down a path which is exactly opposite to the one that These zealous Protestants felt that people should be treading down. So there is a sense that it's a disguised form of evil, packaged in a sense of worshiping Christ, but actually doing the very antithesis of what Christ would have wanted, goodness.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:57)

Imagine if they saw it now.

Professor Mark Stoyle (5:58)

Yes.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:00)

So how had Scotland set an example for England in this regard?

Professor Mark Stoyle (6:04)

Well, this is where there's a very interesting sort of discrepancy between these two Protestant nations. Obviously, England becomes Protestant in the mid 16th century, but it's quite a traditional conservative form of Protestantism. Elizabeth I, queen at the time, is certainly not sort of embracing the wilder shores of Protestantism, but Scotland has a far more sort of zealous radical Reformation. They are sort of pushing towards a much more sort of full on form of Protestantism, very much like that which is espoused in certain parts of the continent. And really right from the beginning of, you know, the 1560s, as early as 1561, the Protestants in Scotland declare that the Papists, the Catholics, have actually invented the Feast of Christmas and that they're going to get rid of it. So the Scots or those who are in charge in Scotland at least moved on Christmas very quickly in the 1560s, whereas in England, Christmas continues to thrive throughout the Elizabethan Jacobean periods and the first part of Charles the First reign. So there's a big difference there between the two.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (7:04)

That's fascinating. I think people often have this idea about Cromwell banning Christmas in their head, but don't think about the fact that the Scottish Church has got rid of it entirely. How long does that hold in Scotland?

Professor Mark Stoyle (7:17)

Well, this is where things came from, really. This is why we ended up sort of losing Christmas as well. So there's this kind of cultural war going on in Scotland between the really zealous Protestants, Presbyterians and James the first, who is obviously king of Scotland in the late 16th century. And then in the early 17th century, he becomes King of England as well. So he's now King of, you know, all three kingdoms. And James is worried about the power that the Presbyterians have, the power of the Kirk, the church in Scotland. And he sort of, as time goes by and he becomes sort of stronger and more sort of confident really in his rule in Scotland, he begins to bend himself against the power of the Kirk and gradually to try and push them back to accepting a slightly more monarchical form of church. And so eventually in 1617, through the so called Five Articles of Perth, he manages to kind of force Christmas back onto the calendar in Scotland. There's a lot of anger about this amongst the really zealous Protestants. But obviously many ordinary people in Scotland, or some at least, are prepared to welcome this. So James eventually manages to push it back onto the calendar, but its hold is still quite slightly tenuous, I would say, at this time.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (8:34)

And in England, what happens then over the following decades? I suppose we have to get up to the civil war before we have a moment that's going to provide an opportunity for the Puritan reformists to impose their beliefs.

Professor Mark Stoyle (8:48)

Yes, and again, it's very interesting that this happens in Scotland first. So in the late 1630s, Charles I, James Son, attempts to impose a new prayer book on the Scots, which they regard as semi Catholic or semi Popish, and also in some ways as a kind of form of trying to impose Englishness upon them. So they rise up in arms. There's a huge rebellion against Charles in Scotland, and as part of those in charge, again, zealous Protestants, they go back and abolish Christmas once again. So Scotland now is again a Christmas free zone. And eventually, because Charles is simply unable to restore his authority in Scotland, he is forced to rescind the Articles of Perth. And so Christmas from 1641 onwards is effectively banned across the whole of Scotland once more. So this is the anti Christmas faction, if you like, reasserting themselves to the north of the border.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (9:46)

And when does this start to impinge on those south of the border?

Professor Mark Stoyle (9:50)

Well, the troubles in Scotland have a sort of a terrible billiard ball effect. Soon after that, there's a huge rebellion in Ireland and then eventually England itself breaks down into a civil war in 1642 between the king and the Parliamentarians, his enemies in Parliament again, who are zealous Protestants, or Puritans, as they tend to be termed here. And so there's now a civil war raging in England, which continues throughout 1640-3. And gradually the King appears to be gaining the upper hand at that point. So desperate to win the conflict. This is the point at which the Puritans in the English Parliament call upon the Scots for aid. And in late 1643, they sign the Solemn League and Covenant, which is an alliance with the Scottish Presbyterians.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (10:38)

And what were the terms of this?

Professor Mark Stoyle (10:40)

Well, essentially, the Scots agree to assist the Parliamentarians with military force, and the Parliamentarians, for their part, agree to sort of to ally themselves with the Scots. And they kind of give the impression that they will move towards a more Scottish form of church government in England as well. So this is something obviously that the Scots, or the Scottish Protestants, zealous Protestants, are Very keen to see. And so the English, the Puritan parliamentarians, are trying to move in a direction which will be seen as sort of congenial to these new Scots allies. And it's really as a result of that that Christmas now becomes vulnerable in the Parliamentarian quarters here in England.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (11:23)

And how does that fit with a sort of more general Puritan program of religious and moral reform?

Professor Mark Stoyle (11:30)

Well, there had always been a handful of people in England who were such zealous Protestants that they believed that Christmas was not a genuine feast and that it shouldn't be celebrated at all, and certainly not with the kind of merriment and debauchery as they would have seen that had been the case in the past. But up until the Civil War, there hadn't been any big push against Christmas in England at all. And those who are opposed to it are really just a handful of isolated zealots. But after the Civil War breaks out, there's a sort of a greater degree of radicalism on the parliamentary side. Obviously, very powerful forces are now unleashed. Iconoclasm takes part across the kingdom as the godly attack very many aspects of the Anglican Church, which they'd always disapproved of. I think in that kind of atmosphere, it becomes easier in a more radicalizing atmosphere to move against Christmas itself.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (12:26)

I guess there's this sense that Puritan reformers see themselves as moral guardians, that they're returning the kingdom to a sort of spiritual purity.

Professor Mark Stoyle (12:37)

Exactly. I mean, you know, the. The clue is in the name, obviously, Puritans. They want to purify the Church of England. They want to strip out all of the rags and patches of potpourri which they believe remain within it. I mean, their opinion is really that. That Elizabeth's church was far too much of a halfway house. It didn' nearly far enough. There were still many aspects of Catholicism kind of embedded within it, and they wanted to strip away and cleanse all of that with a kind of purifying fire.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (13:04)

So talk me through what official measures are enacted then.

Professor Mark Stoyle (13:08)

It's quite a slow process. So in 1643, this is just literally a few months after the alliance with the Scots has taken place. Some MPs in parliament and a few people in the Lords actually sit in Parliament on Christmas Day. And this is a kind of a sign, really, that they're not taking Christmas in the same way as seriously as it been in the past, that they're kind of disregarding it. So this is a sign of where things are going. And at the same time, some radical London Shopkeepers actually leave their shops open on Christmas Day, which is something that would never have happened in the past. So they're kind of signaling, if you like, the direction of travel. And there are already some people in London who are concerned about this, the apprentice boys, the young men of London who'd always enjoyed Christmas, you know, the 12 days of Christmas and all the joviality that went along with it, they actually complained about these shopkeepers and there were actually some attacks on those shopkeepers who'd kept their shops open. So you can see that even in London itself, there's a kind of cultural battle going on here. So that's really the first step along the way. And the Royalists now begin to see what's happening. And from Oxford itself, they actually, or a royalist writer, I should say, publishes a defence of Christmas. And this appears In April of 1644, published in Oxford, the King's wartime capital, defending Christmas as the Feast of Feasts. So you can see now both sides are kind of signing up to pro and anti Christmas postures.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (14:43)

Yes. So we really have cultural wars going on and there's very much a sense that each is trying to position itself on moral high ground.

Professor Mark Stoyle (14:52)

Absolutely. And, I mean, the King is obviously desperate to bring men into his armies to fight for him. He presents himself and his sort of various military commanders and propagandists present themselves as the defenders of this old festive culture, the defense of sort of traditional pastimes and games. They see them as perfectly appropriate. There's nothing wrong with them. They're not at all against religion. They're actually bolstering the old Anglican Church, whereas the Puritans and the Parliamentarians, for their part, they see these things as relics of popery, incitements to debauchery, lasciviousness, not serving God properly. So both sides are trying to use these sort of culture wars, as you say, to bolster their own armies and their own cause.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:36)

But there are actually ordinances that go further, aren't there?

Professor Mark Stoyle (15:40)

Yes, and this process gradually begins to play out. So In December of 1644, Parliament moves further still, it happens, happened to be the case that in that year, the monthly fast which Parliament had ordained actually fell on Christmas Day. And so Parliament issues an ordinance saying that on that day, the fast will go ahead. So the fast now takes precedence over Christmas and Christmas is kind of forgotten from their point of view. So here they're moving a sort of a further radical step still towards the abolition of Christmas. And again, this creates a great deal of unrest amongst many ordinary People and royalists begin to sort of point to this and say, you know, look what the Parliamentarians are doing. They're attacking the most popular and the greatest feast in the year.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (16:27)

I mean, quite extraordinary to imagine this great feast becoming a fast. But things get even more entrenched in the next year.

Professor Mark Stoyle (16:35)

Yes, indeed. So by now, Parliament is actually, it's got the upper hand in the Civil War. So in the summer of 1644, there's the great battle at Marston Moor, when Prince Rupert, the King's greatest commander, is defeated. The north is effectively loss to the King. The Scots are now very deeply entrenched in the north of England, occupying it, in effect, and assisting the Parliamentarian war effort very greatly. So the Parliamentarians are becoming more and more confident and in early 1645, they issue a new directory for the public worship of God. This is, you know, obviously a new sort of form of rite to be held in the church. And henceforth, Christmas is not officially recognized by Parliament at all. So, you know, the. The imposition of this new directory, this new form of worship, kinds of cuts Christmas out of the. The church year, if you like.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (17:29)

And yet is it enforceable?

Professor Mark Stoyle (17:32)

Well, it is because Parliament by now is increasingly dominant in military terms. The King is being pushed back into the sort of the west of the country, Wales, the west country, the area around Oxford. Parliament is becoming more and more dominant in. And of course, by now it has many thousands of soldiers at its command who can actually enforce, you know, these new sort of the new regime, if you like. And then in the sort of the middle the summer of 1645, the King's Own field army is defeated at the Battle of Naseby. Most scholars believe that that marks, you know, the end of the civil war. The King can't really win from this point onwards. And gradually the parliamentary forces occupy the whole of the kingdom. And as they go, the culture wars are spread into sort of every corner and Christmas, you know, is effectively in public at least, abolished. And there's a royalist rhyme that appears a little bit after that, a year or two after that, and it says, to conclude, I'll tell you news. I know that's right, Christmas was killed at Naseby fight. So it's the idea that Naseby, you know, that the loss of the King's army at Naseby is really the final straw for Christmas.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:43)

So, I mean, if somebody had a church service or engaged in a festivity, what happened to them?

Professor Mark Stoyle (18:50)

Well, they could be punished, obviously. It's a very difficult thing to sort of to impose across the whole kingdom, particularly as it been, you know, the most popular feast in the year. So I would say that the, the parliamentarian authorities, once the war is over and they're completely in charge, they have to tread quite carefully. What they attempt to do really is to ban Christmas in public, if you like. But I suspect that they would have turned something of a blind eye to some of the sort of the private celebrations that were going on out of the way. And also in many sort of more rural parishes, the evidence suggests that actually people did continue to keep Christmas as always, churches continued to be decorated and so forth. So although it's hard to be absolutely sure of this, one gets the feeling that it's in the most puritan parts of the kingdom, areas like Essex, perhaps a very Puritan county, that Christmas is, is, is pretty much sort of pushed out. And in the sort of the big cities, the big towns, areas where there are parliamentarian garrisons and so forth, but in the more sort of sequestered, isolated parishes, perhaps, particularly in the north and the west, it was, it was still possible for some people to keep up these customs. And in certain places where the parliamentarians do try to actually remove all trace of Christmas, there are violent protests and particularly obviously by, by younger people.

Verizon Advertiser (20:21)

This holiday, Verizon is giving you incredible gifts and savings you'll enjoy all year. When you Switch, you'll get four new iPhone 17 Pros. No trade in needed. That's right, get four lines for just $25 a line and the amazing iPhone iPhone 17 Pro for everyone. Save big this holiday. Visit Verizon today.

Verizon Terms Announcer (20:39)

20 monthly promo credits applied to account over 35 months with a new line on unlimited welcome. In times of congestion, unlimited 5G and 4G LTE may be temporarily slower than other traffic. Domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional terms apply for phone offer. See verizon.com for details.

Optum Advertiser (20:52)

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

Royal Match Advertiser (21:21)

Ever find yourself bored or trying to kill time? We have finally found a solution for you. Royal Match. Don't believe me? Let's hear what people say.

Russell (21:31)

Royal Match is such a fun puzzle game. There are over 10,000 levels. Also a bunch of minigames, which makes it super exciting.

Optum Advertiser (21:38)

My favorite part, it doesn't need WI fi. I play on my commute, on flights.

Professor Mark Stoyle (21:43)

Even while waiting in line.

Cristine (21:44)

And honestly, no ads. Not a single one. That's why I'm so into it.

Royal Match Advertiser (21:48)

So there you have it. A relaxing, challenging, totally ad free game that goes wherever you go. Download Royal Map and see why everyone loves it.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (22:07)

So this is very interesting. So it seems like the reaction to these ordinances generally is one of resistance, either at that kind of low level or, you know, really actually even taking to the streets. And I'm interested in the sort of evidence that we have of the kind of more quiet continued celebration that is an act of resistance. But also. Then tell us about the riots as well.

Professor Mark Stoyle (22:30)

Okay. Well, I mean, I would say there are many ways obviously that you could continue to celebrate Christmas in a peaceful way. And in a way, I think many people kind of retreated into their own homes. There had always been these traditions of games and feasting and decorating houses and churches and so forth. And interestingly, churches in some parts of the kingdom continue to be decorated, we know, even into the early years of the interregnum period period, so early 1650s. There's evidence that some people actually sort of celebrate Christmas in private. There are some churches where it would seem that, you know, the, the old sort of service is still held. It's very difficult to impose this across the country as a whole. Some people continue to meet up with sort of fiddlers to have revelry and feasting. And it's very, very hard for Parliament to completely suppress these things. I mean, in 1647, this is June 1647. This is the final day when Christ completely ceases to exist by a sort of, by both statute law and ecclesiastical ruling. And after that, instead we're just now in a sort of a land where officially Christmas does not exist. But nevertheless, many people sort of keep it up privately and attempt sometimes to reimpose it even in certain towns.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (23:46)

And what about these riots, these disturbances? Where do they take place? What happens?

Professor Mark Stoyle (23:51)

Well, it's interesting that they take place even in the areas that Parliament had controlled during the Civil War. So I've already mentioned there are disturbances in London on several occasions. In 1646, 47 there are big disturbances in Bury St. Edmunds. And then the most famous upsurge of all of these protests actually took place in Canterbury at the Christmas of 1647. And here there's a really big protest. So the, the mayor of Canterbury attempted Well, he. He actually proclaimed that there would be no Christmas and that a market would be kept on Christmas Day instead on, well, he doesn't call it that on the 25th of December. But the young men of Canterbury are very annoyed about this. They protest once again. They attack the shops of the few people who'd been brave enough or foolish enough to open their shops on that day. There's real trouble in the streets. There's sort of cudgel fighting between some of these rioters and the mayor and his sort of officials, and eventually parliamentarian soldiers arrive on the scene. At their head is a captain, and as the tension builds up, he actually aims a pistol at one of the rioters and hits him and hurts him quite badly. The news of this quickly spreads through the town. Even more young men pour onto the streets. The shout of sort of clubs goes up, people are coming out with clubs and cudgels and eventually the forces of law and order are swept aside. The captain who'd shot the man hides himself, but he's. He's dragged out and beaten up and quite badly hurt. And the rebels or the rioters actually take control of the town for a while. So this is a really serious event. In early 1648, several publications about it appear in London. And what's particularly ominous for the parliamentarian authorities is that these rioters in favour of Christmas are also protesting by now in favour of King Charles I, who by this time is a prisoner of Parliament. And in fact, many scholars would view these disturbances in Canterbury as one of the precursors of the Second Civil War, which breaks out in 1648, when there is a huge rising in Kent in favour of Charles I. And again, this sort of renewed burst of violence in England is only eventually put down by the New Model army, who finally crush the second Civil War and firmly impose, you know, parliamentarian rule on the whole kingdom.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (26:17)

So this is quite an extraordinary response at a sort of popular level. Do we see a kind of similar reaction among the elites, like the press, in the literature of the time, to the cancelling of Christmas?

Professor Mark Stoyle (26:32)

Yeah, I mean, there's a very interesting campaign that is waged in the press against this. And one of the people who's most prominent in this is John Taylor, the water poet. So Taylor's a very interesting writer who was active before the Civil War and long before the Civil War broke out, he had published a pamphlet called the Complaint Of Christmas. And in this, Christmas is figured, you know, it's an elderly, grey bearded man, sort of Father Christmas figure, who arrives in England and is very upset by the fact that Christmas is being celebrated in a rather lackluster fashion, that gentlemen are not holding great feasts in their houses in the countryside and feasting their tenants and neighbors, but are instead, instead heading to London and sort of wasting their money there and not keeping good cheer in the countryside. So Taylor had already launched an attack on the sort of the fact that Christmas was not being kept as it should be before the Civil War. And during the Civil War itself, he repurposes this to attack now the godly parliamentarians who've actually attacked Christmas and effectively cancelled it. So he's using an old theme, lots of old tropes, but he's now turning them on a particular ideological enemy. Me.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (27:46)

It's so interesting, it makes me wonder when C.S. lewis wrote the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and Father Christmas is banned from Narnia. It feels like Lewis, as a Renaissance scholar, might have had echoes in his head of. Of this depiction of old Father Christmas, Old Christmas Day by Taylor.

Professor Mark Stoyle (28:05)

Absolutely. I think Taylor's portrayal has been very significant. And in fact, if you look at the way that he presents those who failed to celebrate Christmas before the Civil War, they're very much like Dickens, Scrooge, people sitting very wealthy. He actually describes them as misers, holding onto their money, refusing to give it to their poor neighbours. I mean, there's a sort of continuity here that runs all the way from before the Civil War into Dickens and into our own view of Christmas.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (28:34)

Oh, so interesting. So these tropes have influenced literature and our very ideas of Christmas to this day.

Professor Mark Stoyle (28:41)

Absolutely. And in some ways, lurking behind Scrooge, the way that we would see him in Dickens book and in the films that have been made since, is the figure of the puritan, in some ways the killjoy, the person who wants to ruin everyone else's fun, but also the idea of the miser, the skinflint. So this is a very old image which has been repurposed again and again.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:04)

Can you paint a picture for us of what Christmas would have been like for people before the band?

Professor Mark Stoyle (29:10)

Yeah, I mean, there are various sort of parts of it that will be familiar to us and other bits that won't be so familiar. So, obviously the theme of eating a great deal is exactly the same then as now. So it's very much this idea of a time of plenty. So there are particular foods that are associated with Christmas in their time, just as there are in ours, and some of them are familiar. So mince pies are very much on the agenda in the 17th century, just as they are today. And they also had plum polishes cottage, which is the forebear of our plum pudding. And so this was more of a broth at the time. But gradually, since the 17th century, it's kind of solidified into pudding form. So those two things are the same. But they also had other dishes that were popular at the time. A roasted boar's head was an old medieval tradition that still carried on into the 17th century. Something that was very popular was as collar of brawn. And this is not terribly appetizing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (30:12)

It doesn't sound nice, does it?

Professor Mark Stoyle (30:14)

It's the scrapings of flesh from a pig's head that have been wrapped into a sort of a roll or a collar and are then served with. With rosemary sprigs inserted in them and with plenty of mustard. So that was a common Christmas Day dish. There was also beef. And of course, they would have capons, geese, chickens, and sort of fowl as well, and all sorts of sweet meats and sort of treats that went along with that. So eating is at the center of things. A religious service had always been at the center of things, you know, before the Civil War. And there's also the idea of the twelve days of Christmas that many people would actually take the whole of that time off for sort of rest and recreation and celebration. And there are all sorts of traditional games that are associated with the season as well. There's blindman's bus, there's shooing the mare, which we don't know that much about, Hop cockles, all sorts of traditional games that are associated with this time. And there's also the custom of presence. Although it's smaller, I would say, than our day. I think today for us, presents have almost become one of the central themes. But there in the 17th century, it's a more minor theme. The idea was that people who had helped you during the course of the year would be given coins, small pieces of money that would be put into an earthenware box. So apprentices would get coins in their box. The same would be true for some people who actually, you know, served gentlemen and women one way or another. And this is where the idea of the Christmas box comes from, which we still have today. But there wasn't the sort of widespread present giving all around the family that we have now. So that's a. That's a new addition, is that that.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (31:57)

We'Ve actually adopted the kind of more royal, courtly tradition of New Year's gifts across the country.

Professor Mark Stoyle (32:04)

It may be. I'm not sure exactly how and when that. That sort of change took place. Obviously there's a. There's a whole raft of new things that come in in the Victorian period with the Christmas tree and these other sort of Germanic traditions that are brought in then. But it's. It's a later development, but I'm not sure exactly when that occurred.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (32:24)

And it's one thing I'm struck by is we often use this really horrible word, Betwixmas, to talk about the days between Christmas and New Year Portmanteau, that I find particularly disgusting. But we actually have a word for those days, Christmas. That's what the 12 Days of Christmas are, isn't it?

Professor Mark Stoyle (32:44)

Exactly, yeah. And all through that period, there were various cheerful things that were going on. And then Twelfth Night, which was obviously, that marked the end of the season. And then usually there would be a, you know, again, particular foods that would be associated with that. It's another time of merriment. And it's really from then on that the. The new year and the sort of the Christmas season comes to an end. And people would talk about keeping their Christmas and meaning, really keeping that. That whole season, if you like, or period.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:11)

I think they were very good at working hard, but they also were very good at taking proper rest in a way that we could learn from today.

Professor Mark Stoyle (33:19)

Yes, absolutely. And. And also I think, you know, because this is the darkest time of the year, the coldest time, when there's not much else actually to be done on the land, it's a good time to rest. And from the point of view of those at the bottom of society, it was a kind of a period that they could look forward to when they could really take a proper rest. And there was also, of course, the tradition of license, misrule and disorder, and the idea that there would be a Merry Lord of Christmas, who is someone from the lower ranks of the community, who for that time would hold a kind of a temporary scepter as the. The Lord of Misrule, who would sort of put himself at the head of these ceremonies.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (34:02)

That's really interesting. Do you think then people's social standing, their status, perhaps also their gender, would have shaped their reactions to the suppression of the holiday? Were some groups more vocal or more vulnerable than others?

Professor Mark Stoyle (34:17)

Yes, I think that's absolutely the case. I think it's those at the bottom of society who felt the lack of Christmas most deeply, because, of course, had been, in a way, a time specifically for them. And this is one of the. The points that Taylor makes when he's actually attacking the people who don't keep Christmas properly, that this was a time when the lord of the manor, the local gentry, was supposed to feast their tenantry, to look after the poor around them and to create sort of ties of. Of charity, neighborhood and sort of community. And so by going to London and wasting their money on vein show and drinking, they were being incredibly selfish. They weren't helping their poorer neighbours in a way, they were kind of damaging the social structure.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (35:03)

And so they are the ones who are most likely to be hurt by it. I'm wondering also whether we see a kind of revealing of existing tensions between central authority and local authority as well here. Here.

Professor Mark Stoyle (35:20)

I mean, these, these things are being. They're emanating from the center, obviously, these orders. So people who disapprove of that kind of central authority might have perhaps been particularly keen to keep up Christmas. And it's interesting that on one occasion Taylor says that. That one of the areas where he says that Christmas is being particularly well kept, even during the period of parliamentarian rule, is actually in the west country, in Devon and Cornwall. Obviously, the Cornish have always been both very keen to retain their own traditions, the Welsh as well. So I suspect that probably Christmas was being particularly well kept up in Wales and Cornwall during the Commonwealth. But it's also, of course, an ideological and a religious conflict. So those areas of the country which had already become much more puritan by this time, and, you know, I'm thinking of places like Essex, towns like Gloucester, Dorchester, receptacles of fanaticism, as Taylor called them. I think those places perhaps found it much, or at least the authorities found it easier to abandon Christmas there than they did in the more traditional and conservative parts of the kingdom. So there's a kind of. There's cultural cleavage in England, but even in the most godly areas, there are still many people who you want to cling to Christmas.

Verizon Advertiser (36:41)

This holiday. Verizon is giving you incredible gifts and savings you'll enjoy all year. When you switch, you'll get four new iPhone 17 Pros. No trade in needed. That's right. Get four lines for just 25 a line. And the amazing iPhone 17 Pro for everyone. Save big this holiday. Visit Verizon today.

Verizon Terms Announcer (36:59)

20 monthly promo credits applied to account over 35 months with a new line on unlimited welcome in times of congestion. Unlimited 5G and 4G LTE may be temporarily slower than other traffic. Domestic Data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional terms apply for phone offer. See verizon.com for details.

Optum Advertiser (37:12)

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe best, better, simpler health care is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (37:51)

The chief association that people have with this cancelling of Christmas is with Cromwell. So what part did he actually have to play?

Professor Mark Stoyle (38:01)

To be honest, Cromwell is fairly blameless in all of this. The decision had already been made to move against Christmas and then to effectively outlaw Christmas before Cromwell is actually in charge of affairs at all. So really, it's quite unfair to blame him. I mean, certainly he was the Head of state at the time that Christmas was officially banned, but this had all been set in train, really, before he ever became Lord Protector. So it's a little unfair to put all the blame at his door.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (38:29)

Think I. I think, well, he's off the hook then. Except perhaps because he won the Battle of Naseby and that seems to be the final nail in the coffin.

Professor Mark Stoyle (38:39)

That's it. I mean, that's what sets everything going. But, I mean, it is really interesting, I think the idea that it's not just at the sort of the. The highest level between King and Parliament that this is going on, but there's also a fight between neighbours over this. You know, that people in the streets must have been fighting over Christmas. And there's a. There's a lovely. You were talking about questions of gender a bit earlier. There's a really nice pamphlet which was published, I think, in 1648, which is called Women Will have Their Way or Give Christmas Its Due. And this has a lovely fight between Mrs. Custom, who's obviously representing the old order, and Mrs. Newcome, who is representing the Puritans and the New Way. And they have a sort of a. A verbal tussle in the street over Christmas. And this is very much being presented from a cultural conservative perspective. And eventually Mrs. Custom sort of routes her newf fangled neighbor and she ends with this verse, for as long as I do live and have a jovial crew, I'll sit and chat, laugh and be fat and give old Christmas is due.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:45)

I love that. So Mark, who in the end stops the ban and saves Christmas, well, it.

Professor Mark Stoyle (39:54)

Is essentially the collapse of the English Republic. So as long as Cromwell is in place with the New Model army supporting him, the Republic seems very strong. And it does seem to be the case that in the early years of the republic at least, Christmas is pretty effectively stamped out in public, at least. But even before the republic collapses, there are signs of a certain loosening, that Christmas is beginning to sort of pop its head above the parapet a little bit more. In the 1650s, it's said that some of the sort of the. The pro royalist gentry in the regions are keeping their Christmases, as in the old time, with fiddlers and merriment and so forth. And so there's a kind of sense that even before the fall of the republic, Christmas is resurfacing. But eventually, when Cromwell dies, he's succeeded by his son Richard, who's much, much less effective as a ruler. Eventually the sort of. The contradictions within the republic begin to tear it apart and a parliament is reassembled which summons King Charles back. And as soon as Charles II is restored, most of the old sort of festivities bound back into life again. And from 1660 onwards, you know, Christmas is fully restored in England.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (41:06)

And does it change in the Restoration and thereafter? Is there a sense that, having been away, it's come back in a slightly altered form, or is it just a restoration of what had previously been the case?

Professor Mark Stoyle (41:19)

I think obviously one couldn't just forget about the events of what had gone before. I think that it's claimed that Christmas after the Restoration is kept up in a rather more sort of, how can I put it, debauched way in London, a rather more cynical way than it had been in the past. And it's interesting that even in. In that first pamphlet that Taylor wrote about Christmas in the 1630s, as I mentioned, he was kind of arguing for a middle way. We want a Christmas that is neither sort of miserly and skin flintish and not giving anything to the poor, but at the same time, we don't want sort of overly riotous Christmases, we don't want real debauchery and drunkenness and people just taking Christmas as an excuse to do all sorts of immoral things. And I think after the Restoration, there is a kind of feeling that in Charles II's court, and kind of encouraged by his rather more sort of loose. The more loose moral atmosphere that prevailed under Charles, that actually Christmas perhaps does go a bit too far the other way in London, particularly after this time. So there are interesting sort of political shots, shifts, and you could say, is that perhaps a reaction to what had happened before, after the banning of Christmas? Perhaps some people go too far in their sort of enthusiasm to celebrate and Royster, as they would have put it at that time. And I mean, I think there are other things, some of the sort of the traditional customs which had survived from the medieval period, they do seem to sort of disappear during the period of the Republic. And it may be that some of the more sort of, of elaborate social structures around Christmas, communal structures if you like, like say the, the ceremony of the hogglers who went around in rural parishes collecting money for the poor, that seems to have disappeared after the Restoration. So there are some changes, but I wouldn't say they're enormous. And I would say that a lot of the old traditions roar back into life again after 1660 because in a way most of them had never really disappeared. They'd just been pushed underground.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:25)

So if you were to say to people, here's some ways in which Christmases of the 17th century should affect your practice of Christmas today, what would you pick out?

Professor Mark Stoyle (43:40)

Oh, gosh, that's really difficult. I think the idea that this is not just a time for feasting oneself silly and sort of indulgence simply within the family circle, if you like, but this idea that at Christmas one should think in broader terms of the people around one. One should take this as a time to kind of foster community and think of people who live close by, who perhaps in less kindly circumstances and not to use it simply as an excuse for sort of greed and self indulgence. I think that's what a lot of sort of, of moralist writers at the time were saying before the Civil Wars. And I guess that's a constant throughout this idea that it's good to celebrate Christmas and to remember what happened at Christmas and why we're celebrating it. But it shouldn't be done in a sort of really self indulgent way and it should. You should be trying to spread the joy, I guess, to those around you and not just within your own family.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (44:35)

Well, Mark, I wish you all, your family and all the families of those listening a Christmas that is full of sharing one's riches, rest and also a good measure of reutering indeed.

Professor Mark Stoyle (44:48)

Thank you, Susanna. Thanks very much.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (44:52)

Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher Alice Smith and my producer Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susannah Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors From History. Hit foreign.

Verizon Advertiser (45:16)

This holiday, Verizon is giving you incredible gifts and savings you'll enjoy all year. When you Switch, you'll get four new iPhone 17 Pros, no trade in needed. That's right. Get four lines for just $25 a line and the amazing iPhone 17 Pro for every watch. Save big this holiday. Visit Verizon today.

Verizon Terms Announcer (45:34)

20 monthly promo credits applied to account over 35 months with a new line on unlimited welcome in times of congestion, unlimited 5G and 4G LTE may be temporarily slower than other traffic domestic data roaming at 2G speeds. Additional terms apply for phone offer. See verizon.com for details.

Professor Mark Stoyle (45:46)

El Programa Nacional de Becasado mas de vie Miles.

Optum Advertiser (45:55)

Esta is my story at end. The Iones Kelly. Illumina, El camino parallel Casigan esta Historia.

Professor Mark Stoyle (46:09)

De progress.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (46:13)

And McDonald's punta com yagonal assertion.