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- [00:01]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Want to walk the halls of Anne Boleyn's childhood home or explore the castles that made up Henry VIII's English stronghold? With a subscription to History hit, you can dive into our Tudor past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:35]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser
Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T mobile is in US cellular stores.
- [00:55]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser Disclaimer
Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.
- [01:05]
Noah
Hey, it's Raj and Noah.
- [01:07]
Raj
And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [01:14]
Noah
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
- [01:16]
Raj
But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hit with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
- [01:25]
Noah
We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right so the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.
- [01:33]
Raj
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:41]
Noah
And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [01:49]
Raj
Love you.
- [01:53]
Nyquil Advertiser
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- [02:19]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. In an England driven by power struggles and religious suspicion, the story of Dr. Rodrigo Lopez stands out as one of the most extraordinary and tragic episodes of Elizabeth I's reign. A Portuguese born physician of Jewish ancestry, Lopez rose from the fraught world of forced conversion and the Inquisition to become physician in chief to Queen Elizabeth I in 1581. Brilliant, multilingual and well connected, he navigated the upper reaches of Tudor society for more than a decade, treating some of the most powerful people in the kingdom. Walsingham, Leicester, and even Elizabeth herself. Yet in June 1594, he met the grisliest fate imaginable. Hanged, drawn and quartered for high treason, he remains the only royal doctor in English history to be executed. The suggestion to do an episode on Rodrigo Lopez has come from an avid Not Just the Tudors listener in New York.
- [03:51]
Michal Schick
Hi, Professor Lipscomb. My name is Michal Schick and I'm a big fan of Not Just the Tutors. I'd love to hear an episode about the Elizabethan Dr. Rodrigo Lopez. I really haven't heard very much about Dr. Lopez since I first came across him. He was brought up in my high school English class's introduction to studying the Merchant of Venice. I'm Jewish and I attended a religious Jewish school. So studying the play in that context and with Dr. Lopez as part of the atmosphere of study was really illuminating and it's part of what kicked off my interest in the Tudor era. I know that Jewish life wasn't very present in Tudor England because of patterns of expulsion. But as someone who's deeply interested in this period of English history, The tragedy of Dr. Lopez is one of the only links to my culture that I found in the Tudor world with respect to Henry VIII and his rabbis. I would be so gratified if this story found a place on not just the tutors. Thank you so much for all of your time and effort.
- [04:46]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thank you for the request which has set us off on a fascinating investigation into the truth about Rodrigo Lopez. Because for centuries, historians have debated whether Lopez was truly guilty of plotting to poison Elizabeth or whether he was destroyed by factional politics, prejudice and personal vendetta. But new research suggests that the story is even more complex than that. Our guest today is Dr. Samir Erazuki, whom I last spoke to in December 2024 for our episode on Elizabeth I and the Sultan of Morocco. It is well worth listening to that if you haven't done so already. But in the intervening year, Samir has been re examining Lopez's case and shedding light on aspects that traditional historiography has overlooked. By looking closely at England's entanglements with Portugal and Morocco, she asks not just how Lopez fell, but why he was executed and what his death reveals about Elizabethan politics at home and abroad. Dr. Arizuki's work suggests that Lopez story cannot be understood in isolation. It was shaped by the wider currents of empire, diplomacy, and religious identity that defined the late 16th century. His fall was not merely the result of a court intrigue or a personal feud, but part of a much larger struggle over power and influence in the Mediterranean world today. She helps us see how this physician's tragic fate was offers fresh insights into Elizabethan England and its place on the global stage. I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from history hit Samia. Dr. Erazouki, thank you for coming back to the podcast.
- [06:28]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Thank you for having me again. It's great to be back.
- [06:31]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So could you introduce this figure to us, Rodrigo Lopez? Who was he? Why is he such an interesting figure?
- [06:39]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Yes. So Rodrigo Lopez was born in Portugal to a family of Jewish origin sometime around the 1520s. His father, Antonio Lopez, had been a physician to the King of Portugal, King John iii. So he was born into this family with the legacy of serving monarchs in the field of medicine. His father was forcibly baptized, converted to Catholicism in 1497. So this is just a few years after the beginnings of the Inquisition, which means that Rodrigo Lopez would have been born into a converted family, he himself having been baptized. And this is sort of what we know for certain about the beginnings of his life. He was born in Crato, Portugal, which is a town that will be of significance for us later on in the story. But this was sort of par of the course, I think, for many who shared his background, being that those that were Jewish or Muslim origin in Iberia and Europe more broadly were living in a situation of complexity, of turbulence, of having to do whatever was necessary to survive. And that oftentimes meant either converting or fleeing.
- [07:57]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes. Let's remind listeners about what was happening to Jews in Iberia at this time and therefore the position that Lopez's family was in.
- [08:06]
Michal Schick
Right.
- [08:07]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
So 1492 is the big date that folks probably recognize as the beginnings of the Inquisition when under King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, there was the forcible expulsion of Jews and Muslims, and those that remained were forced to convert. And we get the emergence of a new category, Marranos Conversos, Moors. These terms that have, you know, some disparaging etymological origins themselves reflect how these people were perceived. That even in their conversion to Catholicism, there was still a cloud of doubt. There was oftentimes presumptions that people, even though they converted, were still behind the scenes secretly, quietly practicing their faith, Judaism and Islam. And so this is the sort of broader context now in Portugal. The Inquisition doesn't really take off in the same way that it does in Spain until about almost 100 years later. And so this partially would help us understand and explain why Rodrigo Lopez left Portugal when he did, which would have been sometime around the 1550s.
- [09:15]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Okay, so he's very much driven out. Why did he go to England?
- [09:20]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
So I think there's a lot of possibilities for answering that. On the one hand, sources and historians who have covered his life extensively have shown and demonstrated that his arrival to London via Antwerp suggests a sort of drawing on an existing network of kin and community that had already made it out. And so it was very much connecting and reaching out to immediate extended family members who also had experienced the same fate, and plugging into those and tapping into those networks, because, as we know, and this is sort of a timeless and ubiquitous thing, you know, in this state of. Of displacement, you rely on the networks that you have. And so he had family members that connected him to this network that landed him into London via Antwerp. And now, the other reason why England is there had been a recent history of Jews who practiced in the field of medicine, chief among them being Hector Nunez, who attained a sort of high position in the Tudor court, working with Walsingham, helping sort of provide information that was crucial in helping the English defeat the Spanish Armada. So he would have likely had some interaction with him. Certainly. Historians suggest that Hector Nunez maybe even hosted him for a period of time and may have been the one that helped him sort of get introduced into the more upper sort of elite circles of England. That also got him the position at St. Bartholomew's Hospital prior to his appointment as chief physician to Elizabeth I. And so this is sort of tapping into what existed that is also not easily and readily accessible to us in the historical record, because on paper, we have to remember that Jews were technically expelled from England in 1290, and this was part of the course throughout Europe. Jews were subjected to a number of expulsions, resettlements, displacements in Europe as early as medieval times, and this was no different in England. So though this would suggest something anomalous, there is also something quite ordinary in this. And the fact that Jews found a way to continue existing collectively as a means of survival. And that oftentimes meant, you know, relying on one another. And also, this unsettles how we understand these categories. They're not so rigid, and especially during the early modern period.
- [11:48]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes. Do we have a sense of what life was like for people of Jewish heritage and ethnicity in England at this time?
- [11:57]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
In England, we have very little information. The most that we know for sure is that, for example, there were a number of prominent rabbinical scholars that served Henry VIII and were actually crucial in helping provide him with scriptural arguments in support of his divorce. And there was also a number of Jewish musicians employed in the court of Henry viii. Now, this is also at a time of heightened tension with Catholic Europe, and we're starting to see the Tudor court begin to establish connections with the outside world beyond Catholic Europe and Jews as well as Muslims, become an important, crucial link to survival for Tudor England, both in the field of diplomacy and commerce. And so this is sort of the context in which Rodrigo Lopez is arriving into England, especially under Queen Elizabeth I.
- [12:57]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And you've given us an idea that his connections are important to his rise in English society. But what more do we know about his life in England and indeed, how he climbs up the ranks?
- [13:12]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
So he first begins practicing medicine at St. Bartholomew's Hospital. The sources that we have about his early life actually come to us because of that. He becomes a physician at St. Bartholomew's in 1567, and just prior to that, he marries a woman, Sarah Agnes Pinto. They eventually have four sons and two daughters together. And so by the late 1560s, he seems to be settling in quite comfortably. The sources that we have from his time at St. Bartholomew's Hospital suggests a very sort of, how should I say, this somewhat hesitant, contentious relationship between him and the hospital. He's oftentimes getting correspondences from the hospital telling him, hey, you're supposed to be providing charitable medicine to the poor. You have a commitment to deliver lectures at universities. And he is resisting that and pushing against that and not necessarily conforming to the expectations of his post. This leads to sort of the beginnings also of sort of disparaging characterizations of his memory and his storyography. But nonetheless, over time, by the 1570s, he gets introduced into the sort of the elite of the Tudor court, first being through Walsingham. We have evidence to suggest that around the 15, early 1570s, Walsingham, who was in France at the time, was sick. And he petitions Elizabeth and asks her, can you please send someone to replace me? Or at least cover me while I'm ill and until I recover. And that may have been the first time that Lopez gets introduced to Walsingham initially to treat him. As we know later that Walsingham saw something in him that was very generative and practical for his uses as chief spymaster. And this sort of sets the stage for that. Though in the years that followed, he also provided medical treatment to Leicester and eventually becomes chief physician to the Queen in 1581.
- [15:12]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So tell me about that role of chief physician, physician in chief, whichever way around we put it, what did it mean in practice? What sort of access does it give Lopez to the monarch? And, you know, what kind of influence does he have?
- [15:25]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Oh, some of the most intimate access possible. I mean, the chief physician would have been one of the very few members of the court to have one on one time with the monarch, and not just one on one time with the monarch, but, you know, inspecting their body, every crevice and orifice. What we know about his medical practice at the time is the primary things that he was treating of his patients were enemas. This could partially be explained from the fact that during the 16th century, we're getting a huge influx and introduction of new foods into the diet of the elite. So the bodies were processing that in different ways. In any case, this is one of the most exclusive and intimate and private and in many ways privileged forms of access to the monarch one on one time. And during that time, yes, a chief physician would certainly be treating the monarch, maybe conducting tests, checkups, make sure everything is okay. And also in those times, maybe discussing things that have nothing to do with medicine. Maybe there's a recent political or diplomatic spot that needs some. Some handling. And that opinion outside of the Privy Council sometimes helps tilt things in a particular direction. And we know that Lopez benefited from a very close relationship with Queen Elizabeth I, because not soon after he's appointed as Chief physician, in 1581 and 1584, she grants him a total monopoly on importing sumac and aniseed, likely coming in from their commercial networks with the Ottoman Empire. I mean, this is quite privileged to be receiving such a monopoly, which also tells us that there was something about his role in the court that extended and transcended the practice of medicine. Certainly.
- [17:22]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And given that anti Semitism was really pretty rife in Europe at the time, as a doctor with Jewish origins, was he vulnerable to rumors and prejudice?
- [17:33]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Absolutely. So this is. He's both doubly vulnerable because of this. It is a slippery slope. As quickly as he was able to sort of ascend. Part of the reason that happens is because his downfall is just as quick, because he's seen as someone who is disposable. And one historian sort of describes the role of elite Jews in courts, not just in England, but throughout the early modern period in the Middle east, as well as well connected outsiders, there was a disposability. They could sort of be the shock absorbers for domestic and foreign fallout. And if they could not prove themselves to be useful, their life was on the line. And so this would have meant that for someone like Lopez, it was not enough to simply practice medicine in an effective way. One had to go above and beyond to prove how and why they merit that position and merit maintaining it. Especially if we consider the role of the court intrigue. All the rivalries that are ensuing surrounding Elizabeth I, between Leicester, later with Essex, Walsingham, Cecil, these are people who are vying for influence. And oftentimes it was a zero sum game. It was not possible for these things to mutually happen at the same. Like these people to be able to pursue their interests in a way that was not mutually exclusive. And ultimately, I think a lot of historians, and I would agree with this as well, is that Rodrigo Lopez was sort of caught in the crosshairs of those rivalries. But it's precisely because he's Jewish and because he's a doctor, a profession, an occupation that was one of the few still open to Jews in Europe, aside from finance and being merchants. So because of that double vulnerability, we can understand then his quick ascent and his quick demise.
- [19:37]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
You mentioned the connection to Walsingham. How did he get involved with the contest over the Portuguese throne?
- [19:43]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
So this brings us back to a historical moment that we discussed in the last episode, namely the Portugal expedition of 1589. Now, for context on that, in 1578 we have the Battle of Three Kings in Morocco. This is when Portugal invades, Morocco fails miserably. The king of Portugal, Dom Sebastian I, dies on the battlefield, heirless and childless, leaving open the question of succession in Portugal. Philip II at the time sees this as a really great opportunity to step in and seize Portugal and its territories all over the world, Africa and the Americas. Now, knowing what we know about the relationship between Elizabeth I and Philip ii, anything that could hinder this and put a wrench in his plans of further consolidating power was necessary. Now, in the aftermath of the Battle of Three Kings, a number of Portuguese aristocrats were captured by Morocco. One of them was this guy, Don Antonio, who was an illegitimate son of the previous reigning king of Portugal. And he sort of emerges to the fore as a legitimate contender for the throne. And he's backed not just by Elizabeth first, but Catherine de Medici as well. They are both throwing their weight behind him. And Morocco sort of sees this as an opportunity to then enter the fray of these competing interests of early modern Europe. And this becomes sort of where we get the connection with Rodrigo Lopez and diplomatic intrigue of the time. Now, I had mentioned that Rodrigo Lopez was born in Krato, Portugal. This is also the same town of birth as Don Antonio. Historical sources also suggest that Don Antonio was an illegitimate son of the king. His mother may have been a Jewish woman. And so there was that sort of kindred connection that would have been, surely help them connect with each other at a deeper level. But this is also where Walsingham kind of steps in to use not just Lopez. We have to go back to also the Spanish Armada. I mentioned Hector Nunez. He was critical in providing intelligence to the English that gave them the heads up and the ability and the time to prepare for the Spanish Armada. So Walsingham having sort of seen the benefits of tapping into these networks of, you know, these exiled Jews from Iberia who also had their own counterparts, oftentimes immediate and extended family members, embedded in the courts of the Ottoman Empire and the Moroccan Sultan's court as well. And so with that, Walsingham sort of taps in with Lopez and they began this sort of collaboration in which Lopez is effectively working as a spy for Walsingham.
- [22:51]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Now, could you just explain precisely how the English were hoping to use Dom Antonio to their advantage? What's in it for them?
- [23:01]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Well, what's in it for them is the possibility of deposing Philip ii. Anything to undermine Philip II and especially to take his newly found acquisition of Portugal and territories away from his grip. And also to ensure that the English, most importantly, I would argue, had the possibility of having a presence on the Atlantic. That Portugal was the sort of last ditch effort, barring any future which ends up happening, settlement across the Americas. It's an entry point to those commercial networks of the Atlantic which are crucial, crucial. And so supporting Don Antonio meant undermining Philip II of Spain, and then also entailed the potential benefits of what it meant to be fully integrated within the commercial networks of the Atlantic that previously the English had been late to join and were isolated and pushed out for because of tensions with Catholic Europe.
- [24:01]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So potentially then, Rodrigo Lopez is a small cog in turning something potentially very big as regards English foreign Policy and indeed the sort of state of international relations at the time.
- [24:17]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Absolutely. And this is what speaks to the sort of liminal space that a lot of Jews occupied in this time period in early modern Europe, because they were subjected to expulsions and displacements for centuries, mobility and being able to move around became a way to survive. And so it was not uncommon for single households to be dispersed throughout multiple cities and maintain correspondences and look out for each other's interests. And so the Ottomans and the Moroccans were very quick to notice this and to seize upon and I would say, I would even argue extract from these networks that which was beneficial to them. And this happens to some extent in Europe. I think the English then learned that this was a possible way to also ensure that they had a foothold in these growing rivalries that were expanding empires on a scale never before. During the 16th century, even the Catholic Church was known to sort of extract from these networks. And I think it's important to sort of then place this within the context of what we're talking about because it sounds like on the one hand, this unprecedented sort of ascent as chief royal physician in the English court as something that maybe is indicative and representative of an exceptional treatment towards Jews in Tudor England. But this was actually very par of the course in the early modern period to sort of elevate marginalized people from marginalized communities if they proved beneficial to the sort of courtly imperial aims that they were serving.
- [26:16]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser
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- [26:35]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser Disclaimer
Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits. Plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.
- [26:45]
Raj
Hey, it's Raj and Noah. And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that excited explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [26:54]
Noah
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
- [26:56]
Raj
But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hit with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
- [27:05]
Noah
We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right. So the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.
- [27:14]
Raj
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [27:21]
Noah
And for the first time ever, we're gonna have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.
- [27:29]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Love y'.
- [27:30]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser Disclaimer
All.
- [27:33]
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- [27:55]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Lunch was great, but this traffic is awful. Um, can we stop at a bathroom?
- [27:59]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Are you alright?
- [28:00]
Michal Schick
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- [28:05]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
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- [28:23]
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- [28:30]
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- [28:31]
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- [28:49]
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- [28:52]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Doctor about epi and if Creon could help.
- [29:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Okay, so give me some sense then, how Lopez made an enemy of Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex.
- [29:20]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Oh Essex. He's always in this in these stories somehow. So as we know with the Earl of Essex, he benefited from close relationship with Queen Elizabeth I, known as one of her favorites. Towards the end of her reign, he was known especially for being Quite hot headed. And, for example, against the wishes of the Queen, rather, I would not even say against the wishes, against the orders of the Queen. He went and joined the expedition to place Don Antonio on the throne in Portugal in 1589, which failed miserably, by the way. It devolved into a major naval disaster for England, which was quite shocking for them and for everyone after the Spanish Armada. Nevertheless, Essex was explicitly told, do not go, and he went. So his presence is already kind of throwing a wrench and messing up their plans. Now, I had mentioned that Rodrigo Lopez had been working with Walsingham, providing him with critical intelligence that was, I would say, surely helpful in setting up the stage for the Portugal expedition. Even though it failed, some of the intelligence that was gathered would have been useful. He had also been doing the same after Walsingham dies with Cecil. And Essex probably took note and saw that, you know, at these Privy Council meetings, they're all chiming in with information and intelligence that is proving extremely fortuitous for them, especially in maintaining their position in court, that Essex wants to tap into this political social capital as well. And so he approaches Dr. Lopez, asking him in no uncertain terms, hey, work for me. Provide me with intelligence. You're my doctor, too. Lopez is hesitant. And in fact, he confides in Elizabeth I and asks her, hey, Essex is asking me to do some shady things I don't know. And then she tells him basically, like, I don't want to know all about this, but look, any service that you do for me will not go unrewarded is what she says. And he takes that. He's like, okay, well, this is not a resounding sort of endorsement. What he does is essentially give Essex the sort of recycled information, intelligence that he had given Cecil the time. Right, Because Walsingham, Walsingham is dead by now. He dies in 1590. This is a sort of lead up to eventually his execution. Now, when he is clearly giving Essex the stale information, it riles him up. And then the sort of final nail in the coffin in terms of Essex's views towards Lopez is that Lopez was said to have been spreading rumors, or had mentioned at least maybe once in passing, intimate information about his medical treatment, which would have included the treatment for sexually transmitted infections. This, of course, Essex did not take lightly to. And this sort of set him on a warpath against Lopez.
- [32:43]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, because one thing we know about Essex was that he was a bit of a hothead. So how did he go about trying to take his revenge?
- [32:51]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
So it starts off by surveillance, just intercepting letters, engaging in conversations with people that were involved in his network. And then there's also the fact that this is where also the Bacon brothers sort of enter the story. Now, on top of this, we have to kind of go up and down with levels of abstraction when we're thinking about this story, because on the one hand, we have the fact that Essex just really didn't like Dr. Lopez and would do anything to undermine him, even if it meant putting together a case that ultimately would lead to his death. But on another level, we're also talking about Essex and Cecil being embedded in a rivalry over who would be the Attorney General. And this case becomes integral in determining that sort of shift in sway that Elizabeth turned towards in any case. So Essex begins surveilling, intercepting letters, and eventually he feels that he has collected an ample amount of evidence to suggest that Lopez is not only in cahoots with Spain, but that he is actively working on behalf of Philip II to poison and kill Queen Elizabeth I.
- [34:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Okay, so how credible is this? Is this what's going on?
- [34:15]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Evidence is entirely contrived. Now, it's taken out of context as well. We know for a fact that Lopez was working with Walsingham, which would have necessarily entailed being in communication with Spain and other diplomatic emissaries and other courts. This was his job. This was exactly what Walsingham had recruited him to do. And there was that side of it. There was. The other side of it is that Walsingham was known for deploying a particular tactic of encouraging his. His spies to almost make it seem as if they themselves are not content with the English and volunteering services and, you know, saying, hey, you know, yeah, the English are treating me awful. What do you need as a way to solicit more information? This was something that Walsingham had done for quite some time. And we have evidence that many of his spies engaged in this kind of work. Now, because Walsingham dies in 1590, he's not there to sort of back up and speak on behalf of Lopez and say, hey, listen, this has been in the interest of the English, the work that he's been doing. The letters may look like they're saying and giving us the image of someone who is willfully collaborating with the Spanish, but know that this is just a tactic of us gathering more information, which has been instrumental for us in maintaining the upper hand against Spain. So Walsingham is not there to do that. Now, initially, when these allegations are brought forth to the Privy Council, Elizabeth the First and Cecil laugh at it they're like, no, this is not like just sending Essex back into his room like a tantrum, like, no, get out of here. Like leave this for the adults kind of thing. They don't take this seriously. Which tells us again that if the initial reaction against these allegations was to not take them seriously and to dismiss them, that the evidence clearly was not resounding and was not, it didn't not inspire confidence in these allegations.
- [36:32]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And yet things change. So how does she go from a position of skepticism to Lopez being tried?
- [36:42]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
You know, so there's interesting parallels, I think, with how she dragged her feet with Mary Queen of Scots. The warrant sat on her desk and, you know, we know the history about how long it took for her to sign that warrant, whether or not she even wanted her to be executed to begin with. Now this is happening immediately after this. So eventually, the sources suggest is that Elizabeth signs the death warrant, but specifically instructs the Privy Council to not execute it. Prior to this, she had stayed the execution. So this is already showing us there is a lot of apprehension and hesitance with regard to the veracity of these allegations. And eventually this changes. While she's out on progress, the Privy Council sends the signed warrant to the tower and he is eventually hanged, drawn and quartered, along with two of his supposed accomplices that were involved with relaying information to the Spanish in 1594.
- [37:59]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Foreign.
- [38:09]
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- [38:28]
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- [38:38]
Raj
Hey, it's Raj and Noah. And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [38:46]
Noah
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
- [38:49]
Raj
But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics of that we could all use a little helping hand with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions or even dreaming.
- [38:57]
Noah
We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right. So the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to Handle whatever life throws at us.
- [39:06]
Raj
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:14]
Noah
And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [39:22]
Raj
Love y'.
- [39:23]
Noah
All.
- [39:37]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
But let's talk about Elizabeth's behavior after his death. How unusual was that?
- [39:43]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Very unusual. Again. So one of the pieces of evidence that we have to, again, I think strongly support the argument and the claims that the case was contrived was that she restores the property to his family, his widow, Dr. Lopez's widow, petitions for what she is owed in terms of her inheritance as a widow. Now to the restore the property. I guess in some cases with those who were executed for treason. It did happen sometimes, but not always. And it usually the only times it did was when they were sort of a prominent member of the aristocracy. The only thing she refuses to sort of give back is this jewel, which is said to have been the main piece of evidence that he was working for Philip ii. This jewel that was gifted by Philip ii, she keeps it. She's said to have worn it on a chain around her neck until she was dead. And so there's that part of it. But then we also have evidence that she actually provided at least one pension to cover the studies, the tuition fees of his son. Now, that's going above and beyond. And I think this suggests a degree of remorse and regret that I think, again, gives us more evidence that the case against him was contrived.
- [41:17]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And how do you think Lopez's story was received? How did it bleed into popular culture at the time?
- [41:22]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Well, we're already thinking about, okay, so he's executed in 1594, 1589. 1590 is when we have the first performances of the Jew of Malta by Christopher Marlowe. We have the character of Barabbas. Okay, so this is before the Merchant of Venice. So there was already that kind of lore. There's widely sort of accepted tropes associated with antisemitism that are circulating and widely sort of being consumed in the English public space. And then he's executed in 1594. We know that the Jew of Malta then is revived. There's a huge interest in attending performances of the Jew of Malta. And then I believe it's sometime between 1596, 1599, that we have the first documented performance of the Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare. And those who have heard about or read the Merchant of Venice, will know that there are some eerie parallels with the character of Shylock. This opens up a whole other set of issues, and this is where sort of I kind of want to push against is that I think a lot of the work and the history that has been done on Dr. Rodrigo Lopez's life has oftentimes been filtered through the lens of these great sort of dramas of the late 16th century. The Jew of Malta, the Merchant of Venice. There's even in the revival of Dr. Faustus, there was an inclusion of a reference to Dr. Lopez that oftentimes, I think, obscures our ability to sort of look at what happened in the history. Right. Not to view the history of Dr. Lopez through the lens of literature, though, certainly gives us some insight into at least the perception, though, I think that to look at his history beyond Shylock, beyond Barabbas, is important, though we can certainly glean how antisemitism had existed before, during, and after his execution.
- [43:23]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Well, you've made a discovery about a possible connection with Morocco that you think might have played a part in his downfall. So tell us what this discovery is and how you made it.
- [43:35]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Yes. So I was working on my own research, which deals a lot with 16th century Morocco, and came across the name of the chief architect of the Sultan of Morocco, Sultan Ahmed Al Mansur, who built his lavish palace in Marrakesh. The chief architect of that palace was a man by the name of Alvaro Lopez. The reason why we have historical evidence of even who he is is because the Sultan of Morocco had petitioned King Philip II, requesting that Alvaro Lopez get safe passage to cross the Atlantic to procure rare building material for the construction of his palace, which Qasr al bajia in Arabic translates to the palace of wonders. So the Sultan petitions Philip II of Spain for safe passage for his chief architect, Alvaro Lopez, and Philip II grants it. And the other piece of evidence that I found is that having consulted the royal letters between England and Morocco during the reigns of Elizabeth I and Sultan Ahmed Al Mansur of Morocco, the letters were exchanged in several languages, but the most common language of communication between them was Portuguese. And oddly enough, after 1594, the handwriting of those letters changes. And I have strong beliefs and suspicions that I believe that Dr. Lopez was one of the people, if not the person that was involved with translating and writing the letters between England and Morocco. And part of the reason why I sort of say this is because in the evidence that was used against him in the trial, there was. He was, first of all, forced to translate the evidence used against him, because some of the testimonies were provided in Portuguese, him having. Speaking at least five languages. Right. So he is asked to translate the letters that are used against him in his trial. But in that trial.
- [45:50]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Terrible.
- [45:51]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
It's awful, right? And it's. He doesn't even know that that's what's going to happen. He thinks that he is just, you know, being a dutiful servant and, you know, is being told by Cecil, please translate these. And he does. In any case, in those letters, there are what they argue were ciphers. Mentions of amber, of musk, of pearls. And funny enough, when we look at the letters between England and Morocco, there's a lot of mention of the same terms. And there's eerie sort of, I would say one could read between the lines and say, well, then, if those mentions of those quote, unquote, ciphers constitutes and amounts to damning evidence of espionage, then at the very least we can sort of contextualize what the reference of these things in the letters between Morocco and England are. Especially because there are sometimes it's almost as if the letters are actually being written by and for people, not the monarchs themselves. And this is sort of something else that I argue that in the translation of those letters, those that were elevated to high positions in the courts of the English of the Ottoman Empire of Morocco, who were also Jewish, may have been using those letters to communicate with each other indirectly. Now, these are guesses, these are hypotheses, and this is what we kind of have to make do with as historians who study moments and people that are excised from the archives in which their voices are not remembered and preserved. And so this is sort of what I'm working on, trying to unravel and find more evidence to support.
- [47:45]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Okay, so let's think then a bit more about what's going on here. What are the English hoping that Morocco will do in this struggle against Philip ii?
- [47:55]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Oh, I think very much it's simply a question of just allying. They were expecting that Morocco would be an ally against Spain, and Morocco was providing them with the crumbs of promises that were not entirely fulfilled. Like, for example, the Portugal expedition of 1589. Part of the reason why that fails, and as we discussed last time, was that that upon their sort of approach to Lisbon, the English side, the Moroccans would sort of converge with them from the south, and they would, you know, present this sort of united front against Philip II and Morocco did not show up.
- [48:34]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And so is it your sense, then that Somehow, Lopez becomes a kind of scapegoat for the failure of Morocco to meet English expectations 100%.
- [48:47]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
I truly believe that in the aftermath of the failure of the Portugal expedition, which amounted to a greater amount of losses than they had during the Spanish Armada, that someone had to pay. And not just that when the forces returned to London after this failed expedition, anyone involved in the expedition was banned from entering the court. Now, partially this was for practical reasons, because they were said to have brought back with them the plague. But there was also just. There's one source that says, for example, that during this time in England, public opinion was more disparaging towards Portuguese than it was the Spanish. There was a huge resentment and sort of shame surrounding this failure. And I think that in these moments of major political loss, whether domestic or foreign, that oftentimes there is the need for a scapegoat. And as a high ranking member of the court of suspected Jewish origin, right, we don't necessarily know this until he gets tortured and his accomplices are tortured to extract the evidence that he was even of Jewish origin. That because of those factors combined, then he's presented as the scapegoat that is needed. And this would also, I think, support what I have found between this connection between Lopez and the letters between England and Morocco, that he perhaps was instrumental in encouraging this reproach from between Morocco and England and corresponding with his counterparts who I believe Alvara Lopez may have been an extended family member of his, that he was the one that was like, listen, Morocco's the power that we need, Morocco's the support that we need. The Ottomans had famously refused to get involved with this. We're also dealing with the time that there's a wariness with fighting and dealing with Spain. And we're also thinking about the sort of like latter years of Philip II's life. So there is a sort of let's wait until this thing just dies out on its own. But if what I found is something close to accurate, I think this would further support the claim that he was the scapegoat for the failure of this expedition, partially because he may have been instrumental in forging that alliance between Morocco and England that eventually fell out and did not succeed.
- [51:24]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So why this matters then is it transforms and you're putting forward that this is contingent. This is still uncertain, but the evidence suggests it's a poss that Lopez is not just caught between two powerful men at the Elizabethan court, Cecil and Essex. He's caught between two countries, England and.
- [51:48]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Morocco and Spain and Portugal. He's at the cusp of all of these overlapping and intersecting rivalries and alliances that are shifting, that are so contingent on what's happening domestically. I mean, things that are happening in London are impacting things that are happening in Lisbon that are impacting things that are happening in Madrid, likewise in Marrakesh and Istanbul. And so I think this kind of helps us go a little bit above and beyond a lot of the sort of limited sort of questions and the scope of the historiography done in his life. Because I think there's something, as you mentioned, the intro that's unprecedented here, the first and only ever English royal physician to be hanged, drawn and quartered, much less executed. Like there's something that we can learn as much about his execution as his life, I think, and that it intersects with and speaks to a number of themes that extend beyond those certainly involve the question of antisemitism. But it's about empire, it's about diplomacy. It's about this world that is transforming at a rate that has never been before in the 16th century and what was at stake. And the unfortunate reality is that marginalized groups like Jews who lived on the sort of liminal space in between were susceptible to being accused of a lot of problems that had nothing to do with them and they paid the price for it, just like Dr. Lopez did.
- [53:22]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Well, thank you so much for bringing your discovery to Not Just the Tudors and giving us more insight into this character and how much Dr. Rodrigo Lopez tells us about Elizabethan society, European society, international relations and some of the key characters at Elizabeth's first court. Thank you.
- [53:46]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Thank you so much.
- [53:48]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thank you for listening to this episode of no Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. Thank you also to my researcher Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tudors from History. Hit Foreign.
- [54:25]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser
Deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T Mobile is in US cellular stores.
- [54:45]
T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser Disclaimer
Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits plan features in Texas and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.
- [54:55]
Raj
Hey, it's Raj and Noah, and we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [55:03]
Noah
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
- [55:05]
Raj
But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics of that we could all use a little helping hit with. Whether it's making new friends as an adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
- [55:14]
Noah
We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right, so the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.
- [55:23]
Raj
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:30]
Noah
And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [55:39]
Dr. Samir Erazuki
Love you.