**Podcast Summary: "Fall of Thomas More"
Title: Not Just the Tudors
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Dr. Joanne Paul, Honorary Associate Professor in Intellectual History at the University of Sussex
Release Date: June 5, 2025

Introduction: The Rise and Fall of Thomas More

In the episode titled "Fall of Thomas More," Professor Suzannah Lipscomb delves deep into the complex life of Sir Thomas More, a renowned scholar, lawyer, and statesman of Tudor England. Joined by Dr. Joanne Paul, an expert in Tudor history, the discussion navigates through More's ascent in society, his unwavering faith, his role in the political and religious upheavals of his time, and ultimately, his tragic downfall.

Thomas More’s Personal Faith and the Hair Shirt

Exploring More’s Piety

Professor Lipscomb opens the conversation by addressing the renowned image of Thomas More as a man of profound personal faith, often depicted wearing a hair shirt and practicing self-flagellation.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “[...] Both sources are posthumous and suggest that More was very secretive about his hair shirt, wearing it under his clothes, known largely only to his daughter and wife.”
  (06:07)

Dr. Paul discusses the historical evidence supporting the claim that More wore a hair shirt, citing a letter from his former vicar and accounts from his son-in-law, William Roper. However, she remains cautious, noting that these sources may have been influenced by agendas to canonize More as a Catholic saint.

• Clarification on Hair Shirts:
  Professor Lipscomb: “What is a hair shirt?”
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “A hair shirt is a garment made of rough cloth, designed to make life uncomfortable as a form of self-penitence.”
  (07:07)

Dr. Paul suggests that the association of More with the hair shirt may have been a deliberate effort to link him to the sanctified image of Thomas Becket, thereby elevating his sainthood posthumously.

The Burning of Books: More’s Role in Suppressing Heresy

More as a Defender of Orthodoxy

The discussion transitions to More’s active role in combating heresy, particularly Lutheranism, which he viewed as a threat to both societal order and spiritual well-being.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “More was involved in the hunting down of illegal texts smuggled into England, leading raids such as the one on the Steelyard in London to confiscate forbidden books.”
  (09:43)

Dr. Paul explains that More’s actions were twofold: enforcing the law against prohibited texts and combating the ideological spread of Lutheranism, which he believed could lead to sedition and anarchy.

More’s Writings on Heresy

Professor Lipscomb highlights More’s Dialogues Concerning Heresies, where More discusses atrocities like the 1527 Sack of Rome, questioning whether these accounts were factual or rhetorical devices to condemn Lutheran beliefs.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “More believed these atrocities occurred and attributed them to Lutheranism, seeing a direct connection between their theological principles and the violence they incited.”
  (12:02)

Dr. Paul notes that while the exact sources of More’s descriptions are unclear, his conviction that these events were linked to Lutheran ideology underscores his deep-seated fears about the movement’s potential for societal harm.

Appointment as Lord Chancellor: A Strategic Choice

Breaking Tradition

In a significant departure from tradition, Thomas More, a layman, is appointed as Lord Chancellor in 1529, a position typically held by senior clergymen.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “More's appointment made sense in the context of anti-clerical sentiments following Wolsey’s fall, as he was perceived as a modifiable and non-clerical figure.”
  (14:09)

Dr. Paul suggests that More was chosen because he was educated, skilled in theology and law, and politically maneuverable, making him less of a threat to the crown compared to entrenched clergymen.

The King's Divorce and More’s Moral Conflict

Promise to Prioritize Faith Over the Crown

The episode delves into the crucial moment when Henry VIII requests More’s support for his divorce from Catherine of Aragon, an issue that would eventually lead to the English Reformation.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “Henry VIII asked More for his opinion on the divorce, and More responded by reiterating his long-held promise to put God first and Henry second.”
  (17:52)

More's refusal to endorse the divorce and the subsequent break with Rome put him at odds with the king, setting the stage for his eventual fall from favor.

Resignation as Lord Chancellor: The Final Straw

Breaking Down Under Pressure

By May 1532, tensions reach a tipping point as More increasingly opposes Henry VIII’s legislative moves to establish royal supremacy over the Church.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “The suppression of the Church’s spiritual authority by secular power was the final straw for More, leading to his resignation.”
  (24:41)

More’s resignation not only jeopardized his luxurious lifestyle but also signaled his deepening opposition to the king’s policies.

Trial and Execution: The Ultimate Betrayal

Silent Rebellion and Swift Justice

The podcast details the events leading to More’s trial, focusing on his refusal to swear the Oath of Succession, which acknowledged Henry VIII as Supreme Head of the Church of England.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “More used legal principles to defend his silence, arguing that silence implies consent, yet the Tudor court manipulated this to frame it as treason.”
  (31:34)

During the trial, More faced three charges, successfully defending against two but ultimately being convicted for maliciously denying the king’s titles. His final words, "I die the king’s good servant and God’s first," epitomize his steadfast adherence to conscience over crown.

Legacy and Complexity: Understanding Thomas More

Beyond Hero and Villain

In the concluding sections, Dr. Joanne Paul reflects on Thomas More’s legacy, emphasizing the importance of understanding his motives and beliefs rather than categorizing him as a hero or villain.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “Understanding More’s motives and central beliefs is crucial to appreciating his complexity as a historical figure.”
  (47:01)

She advocates for a nuanced view that recognizes More’s courage to stand against tyranny, while also acknowledging the controversial aspects of his actions, such as his role in suppressing heresy.

Modern Relevance

Dr. Paul draws parallels between More’s willingness to speak truth to power and contemporary struggles against oppression, highlighting the enduring relevance of his moral stance.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “Thomas More represents someone who refused to just go along with the tides of his time, and that’s an important lesson for today.”
  (49:01)

Conclusion: The Enduring Impact of Thomas More

Professor Lipscomb and Dr. Paul conclude by reflecting on the advancements in historical research that made Dr. Paul’s biography of More possible, thanks to digital archives and searchable databases. They underscore the transformative nature of technology in uncovering the multifaceted nature of historical figures like Thomas More.

• Quote:
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “Digital tools allow us to engage both closely with primary texts and overview comprehensive works, balancing micro and macro perspectives.”
  (56:27)

Dr. Paul emphasizes the importance of grounding historical narratives in the lived experiences of the past, making history both accessible and emotionally resonant for modern audiences.

Key Takeaways

• Thomas More was a complex figure whose unwavering faith and legal acumen positioned him at the heart of Tudor England's religious and political transformations.
• His refusal to endorse Henry VIII’s divorce and the subsequent break with Rome led to his tragic execution, symbolizing the clash between personal conscience and royal authority.
• Dr. Joanne Paul highlights the significance of understanding More beyond polarized portrayals, advocating for a nuanced appreciation of his motives and actions.
• Advancements in digital historical research have enabled a more comprehensive and accessible exploration of historical figures, enriching our understanding of their legacies.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Dr. Joanne Paul: “More was involved in the hunting down of illegal texts smuggled into England...”
  (09:43)

• Professor Lipscomb: “What is a hair shirt?”
  Dr. Joanne Paul: “A hair shirt is a garment made of very, very rough, uncomfortable cloth...”
  (07:07)

• Dr. Joanne Paul: “More’s appointment made sense in the context of anti-clerical sentiments following Wolsey’s fall...”
  (14:09)

• Dr. Joanne Paul: “More used legal principles to defend his silence, arguing that silence implies consent...”
  (31:34)

• Dr. Joanne Paul: “Understanding More’s motives and central beliefs is crucial to appreciating his complexity as a historical figure.”
  (47:01)

This episode offers a profound exploration of Sir Thomas More’s life, balancing his roles as a statesman, scholar, and moralist. Through meticulous research and insightful analysis, Professor Lipscomb and Dr. Joanne Paul present a portrait of a man caught between personal integrity and the overwhelming forces of his time, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation of his enduring legacy.