Historian Natalie Donnell (5:36)

Thank you for having me back.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:38)

So we've got this remarkable line and the repetition of names means that perhaps it's a little hard to grasp. So we've got Mary of Burgundy, Margaret of Austria, Mary of Hungary, Margaret of Parma, and then finally a different name, Isabella Clara Eugenia. So we're coming in on the third one here. We've had Mary Margaret. Now we're back to Mary, Mary of Hungary. Tell Me about her, what's her connection to the Habsburg family?

Historian Natalie Donnell (6:03)

Mary of Hungary was one of Charles V's siblings. She was raised alongside Charles, their sister Eleanor and their sister Isabel in the court of Mechlin under their aunt Margaret of Austria, who we covered last time. And she was living in the Netherlands until she was about 7. She was actually the last of the children of Philip the Handsome and Joanna of Castile to be born in the Netherland. And when she was about 7 years old, her grandfather, Maximilian Habsburg, looking to offset some of his constant financial issues, went ahead and arranged her marriage to help resolve some of his debts. So she was set up from seven to marry Lajos Jagelon II of Hungary. He was at the time the heir to the Hungarian throne. And this was a double marriage contract that the Habsburgs were fairly fond of. They married Mary to Layosh and Laoche's sister Anna would be married to either Charles or Ferdinand, one of Mary's two brothers. So from a very young age it was decided.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (7:17)

Do you have a sense of how her time at Michelin shaped her personality, her outlook? Do we have a sense of that in the records that we have?

Historian Natalie Donnell (7:27)

Yes. Margaret of Austria became quite renowned for her skill at raising children. Not only her own nieces and nephews, but other notables from around Europe, other cousins and children. So she was very focused on giving them all a very well rounded education. Mechelin was a formidable force in the arts and music also. Humanists were made welcome there, philosophers of the day. And Margaret very much personally oversaw the education of these children while she was also the governor of the Netherlands. So someone like Mary would have been very close to her aunt and would have had both the official education given to all of these children, but also the opportunity to observe her aunt in this powerful role.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (8:21)

And so you've mentioned there the importance of her marriage to Liosh, often known as Louis in the Anglophone sources, king of her Hungary and Bohemia. Tell me more about this. And it's a relatively short lived marriage. So also perhaps we can talk about how his death changed her fate.

Historian Natalie Donnell (8:40)

Yes. So Lajos and Mary, they had their marriage celebration when she was still 7 years old, but it would be several years before Mary would go to the court in Buda to join him. In the meantime, she spent several years in Vienna with her grandfather Maximilian, receiving even further training for her future. He personally oversaw her education in things like political and need, a military strategy, the development of further language skills. So was really preparing her for her future. And even after her time in Vienna Mary spent another few years with her new sister in law, Anna, who by this time it was decided she would marry Ferdinand rather than Charles. The two women spent another few years in Innsbruck continuing their education. So it wasn't until 1521 that Mary actually traveled to Hungary to join her, who by now had inherited the Hungarian throne. So she had quite a while to prepare.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (9:40)

Tell me a bit about the nature of that marriage as far as you know, over those five years, Mary and.

Historian Natalie Donnell (9:46)

Lajos were, were happy together. Personally, they, like the Habsburg women we've discussed before, they loved ceremony, they loved courtly celebration. They were teenagers and they received quite a bit of pushback for their lavish spending. And the notables in Hungary, many of them were not keen on having a Habsburg on their throne. In fact, Margaret of Austria, before she even sent Mary away from the Netherlands, had sent an agent to get an eye on the scene in Buda to see what it would be like for Mary. And it was a bleak report. They were not excited to bring a Habsburg in. Hungarians were also particularly against a woman having much political power. So she knew from the start that there would be some definite pushback. But in spite of that, she managed to collect over these few years a loyal cohort of supporters in Hungary. So they were, you know, in control while facing these criticisms. But then the Ottomans invaded Hungary and young Lajos, he went to battle. He took his Hungarian forces to battle against the Ottomans in 1526 and suffered a horrible defe the battle of Mohox, where not only were half of the nobles and clergy of Hungary killed, but Lajos himself, after the battle had even been lost, fell off of his horse and drowned in a muddy puddle on his attempt to flee the battlefield. So really horrible, embarrassing way to go for a young king.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (11:25)

And how does this change her fate? I mean, it seems quite often that the story of these Burgundian women wielding power dep on their husband dying first. So what does this mean for Mary and what responsibilities does she assume as a widow?

Historian Natalie Donnell (11:41)

Yes, it is interesting that each of these women who gained the Netherlands, it was not the first role they were supposed to play. Mary was no different. So for several years she actually remained in Hungary. The Ottomans took Buda right after the battle and then actually ceded control of it to a different Hungarian opposition faction. And so there was a separate government that took over control of Buda for a little while. But throughout this time, Mary remained in Hungary. She removed to Bratislava for a little bit more security. But her brother Ferdinand, who, as we said earlier, had married Anna Alon. So Mary of Hungary's sister in law, the two of them inherited the throne of Hungary when Mary's husband died, and they had no children to inherit. So Ferdinand was now King of Hungary and Bohemia. But he needed someone on the grounds to keep control, keep their administration in order while he continued to fight off the Ottomans. So he named Mary his regent in Hungary for the next several years. So she remained in Hungary against her will. She really didn't want to do that. And even though she performed admirably, both Charles and Ferdinand praised her work there. Ferdinand asked her to stay on permanently, but she firmly declined.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (13:05)

How did she then become regent? Governor of the Habsburg Netherlands.

Historian Natalie Donnell (13:10)

So at first, her Habsburg relatives wanted to arrange a second marriage for Mary Margaret of Austria. Her aunt floated the King of Scotland. She said no. But around the same time that Mary was finishing up her regency in Hungary, Margaret of Austria was dying. Around 1530, Margaret was finally taken ill by an infection of gangrene in an old injury she had. And so Mary, from a pretty early stage, was floated as one of the potential replacements. Mary was very close with Charles. She had also been raised by Margaret. And so while there were other potential regents to take over, Catherine of Aragon being one of them, it doesn't seem that Catherine was particularly interested in the role. And Mary, she had turned down staying in power in Hungary. She had turned down remarriages. It seems like she also resisted being appointed regent in the Netherlands. It seems that was the least objectionable option for her. So she was in control by 1531.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (14:14)

How interesting. Imagine that Catherine of Aragon had taken the role. One understands why she felt she couldn't leave England at that time, if she was indeed even offered it because of the problems with her marriage. But she could have had this great afterlife as regent of the Netherlands anyway. Do you feel when you think about this, that it is the kind of unwieldy nature of the Habsburg Empire that is the cause of Habsburg women being granted such significant positions of power, in contrast to many standards of chauvinism at the time?

Historian Natalie Donnell (14:52)

I think so, yes, at least in part. This was a very scattered empire. There was a lot of moving pieces, but there were several variables that contributed. One being just the fact that Habsburg men seemed to recognize more than others the potential of women to rule. They were committed to providing the education necessary for that to happen. Any princess of a powerful dynasty would be raised to become a queen consort. But it seems the Habsburgs in particular were really committed to providing an education that would cover their bases if they lost a male ruler somewhere else. It was both happenstance and practical planning on their part that allowed these women to take these roles and really and to excel in them to the extent that they did.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:37)

And let's talk about the extent to which Mary of Hungary did succeed. What were her achievements and what were the difficulties she confronted?

Historian Natalie Donnell (15:48)

Mary, we can safely say that she was the most successful of the female regents in the Netherlands, first and foremost, because she had been handpicked by Charles V. She had been corresponding with him through the years. She knew what he wanted and needed from someone in the role, and she was very aware that he and Margaret of Austria, her predecessor, it was a very tense relationship. Charles felt his aunt had been thrust upon him by his grandfather. So he was very eager to replace Margaret when she died with someone who he had a lot more of a say in her political development and in her approach to the role. And because of this, Mary enjoyed much greater powers than Charles ever gave Margaret. So, for instance, Charles had put together three different ruling councils under Margaret's reign that he appointed people to lead these different councils to keep her in check. He set Mary as the head of each of these councils, and he also left her in control of military operations during her regency. So he really made her the preeminent power in the Netherlands, instead of having to listen to the other councilors around. Of course, she had these large councils and she had allies and everything, but she was really the final authority in all of these different areas.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (17:11)

And she had a very different style of leadership to Margaret Austria, didn't she? In what ways did her governance differ from her aunt?

Historian Natalie Donnell (17:19)

We can think about this in two ways. One of them is the relationship she kept with her siblings allowed her to rule in a different way. She became not just the regent in the Netherlands, but she became one of Charles V's primary advisors on topics ranging across his rule, not just in the Netherlands, but across the empire. So she very much had his ear. After a few early attempts by his secretaries to mediate, to read her letters and only give Charles the overview, and then to keep some level of distance in the correspondence between the siblings, Mary shut that down. She was very forward about offering to quit her post if she felt she was underappreciated. And so anytime she would do that, it would ensure that Charles would reassure her of how important and necessary she was. So she really knew her worth and her values. She knew she was irreplaceable, and she used that to her advantage, giving her a lot of leverage to work with. But I Will also say, compared to Margaret, because of the limits on Margaret's power, she didn't have access to the same patronage networks that Mary of Hungary did. Because Mary was the unquestioned authority in the Netherlands, she was able to cultivate a lot more powerful political relationships with notables on the ground, with Netherlandish people as well as people sent over from Spain. She also was more stuck, we could say more successful because she was able to single handedly control these really powerful patronage networks in a way her aunt just hadn't had access to.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:52)

And can you give me some sense of how she navigated the turban religious conflicts that were brought on by the rise of Protestantism?

Historian Natalie Donnell (19:04)

Yes. Mary was, in her young life, when she was in Hungary in particular, she showed an interest in Lutheranism, actually. She maintained an extensive correspondence with Erasmus. And she was also willing to play politics with religion to an extent. So she knew that to be a Habsburg ruler, it was very important to remain staunchly Catholic. She was open to reform. She was tolerant of the Protestants, more so than her male relatives. She didn't want to bring violence against them, but she remained Catholic. But at times when, like for instance, there was a moment when she was in a disagreement with the Pope and she threatened to turn her whole court into Lutherans if they couldn't get on the same page. So she was very aware of the political implications of religion. That being said, once she was settled in the Netherlands, she didn't really float ideas of reform to the same extent as she had before. She seemed to realize that it was important to not give any sense that she was anything less than firmly Catholic. She developed some limitations as she got older around that.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (20:19)

And one of the interesting things about this family is that the three siblings, Charles V, Eleanor of Austria, Mary of Hungary, all retire together. This is an extraordinary moment. It also feels like it's not exactly future proofing the dynasty because, you know, surely they need these experienced political operators if they're going to keep the family dominion together. And we know precisely what does happen. So can you talk me through the logic of that?

Historian Natalie Donnell (20:50)

Yes. The issue of what to do with Charles V's vast holdings was one that was under discussion for a very long time. We actually have some of Mary's correspondence with Charles and Ferdinand. And historians are increasingly giving Mary credit of being the first person to float the potential of splitting the empire to be ruled by different Habsburgs. Since Ferdinand was established in Hungary and Bohemia, he was much more firmly in control of the eastern segments of the empire. While Charles was based in Spain. So Charles decided at the peak of his reign that he would step down to be able to better oversee the future of his empire come to fruition. But Mary of Hungary, despite her successes, was constantly insisted that she had not wanted to take the role. She said it was the most foolish thing she ever did to agree to it. She referred to the regency as a leash around her neck. So she was always adamant that she did not relish the role and she was always adamant that she would retire when Charles did. Eleanor, their sister, had been Queen of France. Her husband, Francis I, died in 1547 and she went to the Netherlands from France to live for the next few years with Mary. The two were rather close and waited for the transfer of power from Charles V to his son, Philip ii, who would take over control of Spain in the Netherlands, while Ferdinand, Charles's brother, would keep the Eastern Empire. Mary and Eleanor and Charles were all on the grounds in the Netherlands when Philip arrived to meet his people, to become familiar with his institutions. And then after about a year, the three siblings retired to Spain together. Also ended up dying within about a year of each other. So it's a really interesting, a really affectionate view that we get of these three vastly powerful people.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (22:43)

It's such an amazing thing, isn't it? Because as you say, three very powerful people and we have this retirement plan at the end of our lives. It's almost like they've made a pact. Perhaps when they're in Mechelan under Margaret of Austria, there'll come a point at which we shall all just go back to Spain or we shall settle there. Who knows? Our next woman on our extraordinary dynasty of powerful and formidable women is Margaret of Palmer. So who is she? What's her connection to the Habsburgs?

Historian Natalie Donnell (23:16)

Margaret of Parma was the natural born daughter of Charles V. Her mother was the daughter of a merchant family in the Netherlands.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (23:24)

And what do we mean by natural born at this time?

Historian Natalie Donnell (23:27)

She was the product of a romantic tryst between Charles and one of the young women who he met while he was in the Netherlands. Not his wife, a different woman. It doesn't seem that Margaret of Parma's mother ever saw her again. Charles, throughout his life, he made sure that he had several illegitimate children. He made sure they received the same education. He kept informed of their well being alongside his, you could say natural born or legitimate children. So Margaret, her custody was given to Charles's trusted cupbearer in the Netherlands. So she grew up in Brussels, she was always close by. And Margaret of Austria and Then later, Mary of Hungary kept very close tabs on Margaret of Parma as she grew up. And she, she was sent to Italy at 11 years old to marry the Mayor of Florence, Alexandra de Medici. He was really cruel and terrible. So luckily he died before she was old enough to consummate the marriage. And then she married the Duke of Parma two years later. And so she was actually married. She had a son in Italy before she was called up to take power in the Netherlands.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (24:37)

And can I ask a question about the perception of illegitimate children at this time? I mean, from what you've said about her being lined up to marry the Duke of Florence, Alessandro de Medici, and then the Duke of Parma, it doesn't give a sense that her prospects were in any way diminished by being born illegitimate. But did it change how she was perceived?

Historian Natalie Donnell (25:01)

It certainly did change perceptions of her to some extent. But you're right, a child of Charles V was a child of the Emperor. They were an opportunity to make another marriage alliance, to make stronger links with political elites elsewhere across Europe. So they weren't going to miss the opportunity of a Habsburg child, even though she was illegitimate, to use her in the greater dynastic scheme. From what I've read of Margaret of Parma, there doesn't seem seem to be too much issue about her illegitimacy. At least with people in the Netherlands. They seemed to receive her very warmly. The fact that she had been born in the Netherlands and the fact that she was a member of the Habsburg family were really the two legitimizing factors that were most important to her.

Nissan Advertiser (25:59)

You won't see the engineer that slams the Nissan Rogue's door 13,920 times. Or the corrosive chamber that simulates 15 years of life in five months. Or the Rogue heat baked for over 300 combined hours. What you will see is a vehicle that can take punch after punch and keep rolling. Nissan number one in new vehicle quality among mainstream brands by JD Power. We put it through the worst so you get its best.

Historian Natalie Donnell (26:25)

For J.D.

Nissan Advertiser (26:25)

Power 2025 U.S. initial Quality Study Award information, visit J.D. power.com Awards Awards based on 2025 model year. Your new models may be shown.

Tide Advertiser (26:30)

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yup. Chocolate ice cream.

Historian Natalie Donnell (26:42)

Sure thing.

Tide Advertiser (26:43)

Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tied.

GoFundMe Advertiser (26:58)

Want to make a difference in your community, but not sure how? Go to GoFundMe.com right now and start a GoFundMe. Seriously. Your next fundraiser doesn't have to start in a school parking lot or a church basement. You can start a GoFundMe today in just minutes. Fundraise for yourself, a friend or family member or an organization. All that matters is that you care about them. GoFundMe is the trusted place to fundraise for what you care about. With no pressure to hit your fundraising goal, but tons of tools to help you reach it, you can confidently start fundraising right now. Whether it's creative, local or critical, your cause matters and there's a reason why GoFundMe is backed by millions and chosen by fundraisers everywhere. It works and it matters. GoFundMe helps you make a real difference. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com that's GoFundMe.com G O F U N D M E dot com this is a commercial message brought to you by GoFundMe.

Historian Natalie Donnell (27:57)

Riley Herbst from 2311 Racing checking in. Got a break in between team meetings. Sounds like the perfect time for some fast paced fun at Chumba Casino. No waiting, just instant action to keep you going. So next time you need a pick me up, fire it up and take a spin. Play now@chumbacasino.com let's Chumba.

Chumba Casino Advertiser (28:16)

No purchase necessary VGW Group Void where prohibited by law CTNC's 21/ sponsored by Chumba Casino.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (28:33)

And so you've told us she becomes Duchess of Palmer through her marriage to Octavia Parnesi and then she spends a significant amount of time in Italy as some 17 years I think. How do you think this affected her?

Historian Natalie Donnell (28:47)

It certainly gave her an opportunity to flex her political skills. For instance, she developed a very close and working relationship with the Pope who I believe was her grandfather, a relative of her husband. She developed her use of political correspondence. She wasn't particularly close with her husband Farnese, especially at the beginning. Over time he proved to her that he was willing to served Charles V and their relationship grew warmer from there. But she used this time she largely resided in Rome during these years apart from her husband who was in Parma. So she really became an individual political force in that political scene before getting her promotion and moving to the Netherlands. And she also during these years she kept quite correspondence with Philip ii, her half brother. She actually traveled to meet Philip in the Netherlands a couple years before she went there because her son Alexander was sent to be raised with Philip's son in Spain. So there was a lot of connection going on. There was a lot of plans for the future, for making sure that she and her son were fully integrated into the Spanish Habsburg network.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:59)

So what led to her appointment as governor of the Habsburg Netherlands in 1559, and what were the powers that were granted to her and the limitations put on her by her half brother, Philip ii?

Historian Natalie Donnell (30:11)

Philip II was a very different type of ruler than his father, Charles V had been. Charles always saw the Netherlands as cajole in his crown of his empire, and therefore he gave its governors greater powers. He made sure that they were members of the family. Philip II was raised in Spain. He didn't have the personal affection for the Netherlands that his father had. He was very keen on doing things his way, on making changes. He didn't think the Netherlands needed all of these special accommodations. And so when Mary of Hungary died, he appointed a male governor general in the interim. This was Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy, if we remember Margaret of Austria's final husband, this was his nephew. He was Duke of Savoy. And Philip assigned him to take over the governorship in the Netherlands. And he did. Okay. He was there for a few years, but then the Duke of Savoy married a daughter of the King of France and really turned his attentions, political and otherwise, towards France. And so he stepped down willingly from his post. And it was at that point that Charles. Charles's advice to Philip had been to specifically to use Margaret of Parma in this role for the reasons we've said before, her connections to the region and being family. Finally, in 1559, Philip II belatedly took that advice and asked Margaret to take over. So Margaret of Parma, her governance in the Netherlands, it was more limited for sure, than Mary of Hungary's. Philip tried to micromanage, but this was the beginning of the Dutch Revolt. This was an era in which it would have been hard for anyone to maintain the position that she had, because during her first stint in power, she will step down and then she will later come back. During this first tenure, she was constantly placed between the immediate needs, the traditional rights and privileges of the people in the Netherlands and their openness to religious reform and toleration. She was there with them, but Philip was constantly asking her to crack down more, to aid his inquisitions to end heresy in the Netherlands. So it was really an impossible position that she was in.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (32:34)

So it sounds like you're saying it was considerably harder for her to rule in the Netherlands than for previous regents, precisely because, you know, she's attempting a kind of moderation, and Philip II's approach is very hardline. Is that an accurate summary?

Historian Natalie Donnell (32:49)

Yes, definitely. This was the case a little bit with her predecessors as well. The women of the Habsburg family were a little bit more tolerant of the Reformation, even if they didn't support it completely, but they were more practical in terms of violence and suppression isn't going to end a religious movement. And especially if Philip knew anything about the people of the Netherlands, who were already fiercely proud of their individuality, their autonomy, the fact that they had their own response to the religious Reformation and it was being attempted to be quashed from the outside, they were never going to lay down and accept that.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:29)

And why did she eventually resign as governor, then? Is it as a result of these religious tensions, the difficulties of the job?

Historian Natalie Donnell (33:37)

She continued to receive demands from Philip to give more money, give more attention to the inquisitors, the religious inquisitors he was sending there. They were executing people guilty of heresy. The Netherlandish nobles, several of them were interested in reform. Most of them were at least tolerant of it. And they came together to seize Margaret of Parma. They took her hostage in 1566 in Brussels. And so she. She had no opportunity to enforce what Philip was demanding of her. He wanted her to pe the peace, to stop the revolt and continue doing all of the things that were causing the revolt. So after Margaret was taken hostage, Philip sent the Duke of Alba, who was horribly unpopular. His name was Fernando Alvarez de Toledo. In 1567, he arrived in Brussels and just took the Inquisition to new heights. During his time there, he would end up having killed over 7,000 people. So this just made things worse. But the real turning point for Margaret, when she said she could no longer be complicit, she could no longer stand for this and be part of it, was a year later, in 1568, Alba had the Counts of Egmont and Horn executed. These were two of the most prestigious nobles in the Netherlands. They, alongside William of Orange, were the three preeminent leaders of the movement at the time. The Prince of Orange was spared because he read the writing on the wall, and he fled to his estates in Germany, where they couldn't get to him. Egmont and Horn stayed behind. They thought, we're too powerful, we're too important, there's no way that they'll harm us. And Alba did. He had them executed. And it was at that point that Margaret of Parma knew she could not work with Alba. She could not continue to stand by and witness this. So she left. She returned to Italy, where she was still married and still had a son and her own life there. So she was willing to step back from power when it was no longer in line with what she felt doable.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (35:41)

It's very interesting. And how has she been judged by historians? How is she remembered today for this act of resistance? I suppose by stepping away from complicity.

Historian Natalie Donnell (35:52)

With many, ruling many powerful women in the early modern era. You have the historians of the 18th, 19th century who refer to her as weak. Her failures were her own, not having the education, not having the intelligence or the grit and to keep power. And then you have the historians of the later 20th century and into today who are going back and really breaking apart those assumptions which were not based on very in depth analysis of the sources that say essentially that she did her best in an impossible situation. She didn't have the opportunity to build the close working relationship with Philip that, for instance, Mary of Hungary had enjoyed with Charles. She could not control the fact that the Dutch revolt was on its way and that she arrived in the Netherlands just in time to see it all fall out. I'm not saying that she was a perfect ruler by any means. She had her flaws. Her attentions were divided. You could say that she vacillated by nature of this position she was in, stuck between a rock and a hard place. There was some inconsistency in her language, but I don't think. I don't think there was much within her control that she could do to change her situation.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (37:10)

The fifth woman we're going to talk about is Isabella Clara Eugenia. How does she fit into the dynasty?

Historian Natalie Donnell (37:18)

Isabella Clara Eugenia was the favorite daughter of Philip ii, so she was the great granddaughter of Mary of Burgundy. But she was different from the women who preceded her for a few reasons. First of all, there was a stint of several male rulers who Philip II put in charge in the Netherlands. So Margaret of Parma left. She came back a few years later, she left again for essentially the same reasons. This time she was supposed to rule alongside her son, Alexander Farnese, and he did not want to share power with his mother and she stepped down. Farnese and his successors each died in the position. And so by the 1590s, I think 1595, Archduke Albert VII of Austria had taken up the role of governor general in the Netherlands. He was the brother of his predecessor. He was one of the nephews of Philip ii. And so Philip had long decided that Isabella Clara Eugenia, who he had raised very close by his side in Spain, she was a confidant, she was very close to him. She was Catherine de Medici's granddaughter. So she also, Catherine kept an eye on her from France and wrote to her, and she was surrounded by a lot of politically powerful people. And so Philip II decided the Netherlands cannot be ruled in this way anymore. Lieutenant governors general, they do not have enough power. They cannot handle the chaos of the ongoing Dutch revolt. In the meantime, between Margaret of Parma's two stints in power, the northern provinces had separated. They'd become the United Provinces. They'd seceded from Habsburg Netherlands, and making things even more complicated. So Philip decided that only a sovereign would really be respected in the Netherlands. So in 1599, he married Isabella Clara Eugenia to Albert VII of Austria. And when she joined Albert in the Netherlands, they took the throne as the sovereign Archdukes of the Netherlands. So for the first time since Mary of Burgundy, the Netherlands were ruled by their own sovereign. And they ruled together until 1621, when Albert died. After that, because they had failed to produce an heir, the Netherlands went back to being a satellite kingdom of the Spanish Netherlands. But Isabella stayed on in her role until she died in 1633.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:48)

And what was the goal and the nature of their role?

Historian Natalie Donnell (39:53)

The goal was really for Philip to have more powerful and more trusted allies on the throne in the Netherlands. He adored his daughter. He wanted her to have something for herself. So sovereignty over the Netherlands was, practically speaking, her dowry. And so he believed that giving the Netherlands back its sovereignty, the people would be more inclined to obey, that it would be easier to rule, that it would take some things probably off his plate, although he did continue to try to maintain control over certain elements of the government. But Isabella and Albert really ran with the opportunity. They styled themselves, for instance, the Kings of Burgundy. We see that in some of the letters written to them. So they were very much leaning into the sovereign past of Burgundy. And they did things like they developed their own diplomatic policies. So, for instance, England was a very important trading partner. The archdukes sent their own ambassadors to England to create their own contracts and their own relationships separate from the Spanish Habsburgs. So they were really trying to carve out for themselves their own identity, their own governing style, and their own presence on the European continent.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (41:13)

Can you tell me about the sort of economic or legislative reforms they introduced and, again, how they handled the political and religious tensions of this country?

Historian Natalie Donnell (41:23)

So by this time, because their jurisdiction was the southern half of the Netherlands, this was the region that had always stayed more prominently Catholic. The leading nobles in that region remained staunchly Catholic. So while the wars were ongoing, Philip for a long time hoped to reclaim the northern provinces. Isabella and Albert did not pursue this with gusto. They actually made a pacification treaty with the northern provinces because, as you mentioned, the economic vitality of this region had always been a leader in Europe for generations. They wanted to protect that status in that wealth. So they were much more practical about working with their new northern neighbor instead of trying to reclaim them after so many failed attempts by Philip. They restored the prestige of the Netherlandish nobles. They worked very closely with the local nobility, so they really integrated themselves a lot more directly into the existing Netherlandish political networks, all in this effort to not have this look of being imposed upon the people from the outside. They very much became just pieces of this existing Netherlandish network to the extent that they were able.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (42:40)

And tell me about how they used patronage, art, architecture, religious commissions to promote their political goals, to kind of back up their political image and legitimacy.

Historian Natalie Donnell (42:55)

Patronage of the arts was really a constant through line with all of these rulers in the Netherlands. Sometimes finances were. They were more capable to take on commissions than at others. But Albert and Isabella really followed in the traditions that went before them. They made artists and musicians very welcome at their court. They hosted philosophical debates, they were very humanist in their outlook of the types of thinkers and speakers who came to their court in Brussels. They had fabulous paintings, portraits done of the two of them in power that had all the trappings of sovereignty. And there's one really fabulous portrait showing their grand entry into Brussels with just hundreds and hundreds of well dressed nobles and standards and musicians. So things like royal entries had been central to kings and queens across Europe forever. So they really made sure that they prioritized. Placing themselves at the center of these performances of sovereign. And art was one of ways to do that, because even if you couldn't read, you could see it. If you visited the court, you could see the art, you could see the tapestries, you could see Albert and Isabella themselves portrayed with all of these kind of universal symbolisms for sovereignty.

Nissan Advertiser (44:28)

You won't see the engineer that slams the Nissan Rogue's door 13,000, 920 times, or the corrosive chamber that simulates 15 years of life in five months, or the Rogue heat baked for over 300 combined hours. What you will see is a vehicle that can take punch after punch and keep rolling. Nissan number one in new vehicle quality among mainstream brands by JD Power. We put it through the worst so you get its best.

Historian Natalie Donnell (44:53)

For J.D.

Nissan Advertiser (44:53)

Power 2025 U.S. initial Quality Study Award information, visit JDPower.com Awards Awards based on the 2025 model year and your models.

HeroBread Advertiser (44:58)

May be shown Fall is all about cozy comforts, but when you're prioritizing your health, it's easy to feel like you're missing out. With herobread. You can enjoy all your fall favorites because they're made with herobread, sliced bread, loaves, tortillas, bagels, dinner rolls and more. Try their all new hero noodles. With 12 grams of protein and just 80 calories, you won't believe HeroBread's options have 0 to 5 grams net carbs and are high fiber from the taste and texture. They've even got small batch drops of ind favorites like the popular Hero Croissant. And right now Herobred is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code fall25 at checkout. That's fall25hero co. All figures are per serving of HeroBread contains 2 to 18 grams of fat per serving. See the product nutrition panels on Hero Co for more information.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (45:52)

After our Albert's death, how did Isabella manage her role?

Historian Natalie Donnell (45:56)

Isabella she leaned into her widowhood, which was common for women with power in this era. So she had loved Albert, they once again continuing the lucky streak. They had a happy marriage and so after Albert died she knew that she wanted to stay on as governor, although she lost her sovereignty and a lot of the particularly the diplomatic, the international and military affairs of the Netherlands came back under the purview of actually Philip II's successors. Philip III and Philip IV both came to power during Isabel's life, but personally she she made herself a bit more secluded. She and Albert had celebrated having this fabulous Renaissance court with all of the celebrations you would expect to be part of that. But after he died, she kept herself much more closed off. She was most often in the company of her female household. She took her missives and audiences privately wherever possible. And all images of Isabella after Albert's death were in the trappings of being a nun. She decided to align herself, to present herself much more closely with the sartorial presentation of Belgian convents of nuns. And so she really leaned into religiosity. Her court was said to become a bit more prudish, a bit more stoic after Albert's death. So we don't know if this was just because of her despair at losing him, if it was a political decision, probably a little bit of both because A woman in the trappings of a nun could be attacked in far fewer ways than a woman, a single woman, in the trappings of power. So she was very deliberate at marking the shift in her position after his death.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (47:39)

Yes. I mean, it feels like it makes a lot of sense to lean into faith, to lean into that religiosity and stoicism, because she's in despair. You know, this is a coping mechanism as much as anything else, isn't it?

Historian Natalie Donnell (47:55)

Yes, it is. And also, as a single widowed woman doing these things, retreating into her household, it allowed her to rely primarily on her female attendants, who she'd become very close with. And that also gave those women a heightened amount of power. We see this phenomenon with widowed queens across Europe. We see this with Elizabeth I, that to access a woman in power, you needed to also cultivate relationships with the women who had the most unlimited access to her. So this era was also one in which her ladies in waiting gained a new prominence in her court. They were newly appreciated by nobles and ambassadors to that court.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (48:40)

This lineage of remarkable female rulers is extraordinary. How important do you think the older experienced rulers were in inspiring and perhaps advising the younger ones?

Historian Natalie Donnell (48:53)

They were each directly, directly involved in the cultivation of the next. Apart from Isabella Clara Eugenia, who was raised in Spain, she was the only one of these women who was not born in the Netherlands. But I think, given how much Isabella Claire Eugenia leaned in to her Burgundian ancestry later on, even if she hadn't had the opportunity to learn directly from the women before her, she clearly recognized the importance of that Burgundian lineage to her legitimacy in the Netherlands, because that was the way that she styled herself once she got there. But for each of the women who came before, whether it was Mary of Burgundy's stepmother, Margaret of York, creating this link to her own daughter after she died, Margaret of Austria raised Mary of Hungary. Margaret and Mary of Hungary both had a hand in raising Margaret of Parma. And I don't think that we can underestimate the importance of these connections. Not only the direct lessons, the tutoring, the teaching, but also just the ability to spend time with their predecessors. To see what a court under the power of a woman looked like, to see how these women, their aunts, how they related to men and women around them. The sad part is that we'll never have quite as many specifics, because this is a lot of conversation, this is a lot of quality time. When you're in the room with someone is the best way to learn from them. It's also the best way to make sure there's no record of what happened. So. So as much as I would love to have more of the details, I still don't think there's any doubt that these women were deliberately educating each other from their own experiences and the women who came before them at how to survive and even how to thrive as women with political power.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (50:47)

So finally then, Natalie, what legacy do you think this line of powerful and influential women has left? And what lessons can we draw from their lives?

Historian Natalie Donnell (51:03)

Each of them were very adept at developing different political strategies for different moments and different people. Mary of Hungary, in her actions, we know that she was very confident that she knew what the right thing to do was. She was very adamant that she be able to make her own decisions about how she ruled. But in the way that she wrote to other people, she knew that she needed to present herself as tender, as feminine, as weak in doing so, inviting reassurances of her capacity and therefore greater space in the aftermath for flexibility with which to work. With Margaret of Parma, we know that she was politically astute from her time in Italy. We know that she was much more practical on the ground in the Netherlands. She saw that there was no hope for Philip's strategy long before he did, and she had the wherewithal to step down and leave, which then, when, you know, her inclinations proved correct, he asked her to come back. So these women were clearly aware that even though they needed to follow their own instincts, that they needed to rule in a way that made sense to them. They couldn't present themselves as as confident as they really were and that they had to soften their input for the egos of the ruling men in their lives to make sure that they could maintain access to power. So they really, they had to monitor the emotions of male rulers at the same time as putting their own foot down in terms of the on the ground practical strategies of how to maintain control.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (52:47)

Well, you have spoken so intelligently and so informatively about all of them. If listeners want to read more of your work, where should they go?

Historian Natalie Donnell (52:57)

I have a substack called Feminist Histories. I would welcome any interested parties to give it a look. I have a few articles, one out with Nursing Cleo, one with the 16th century journal, which is forthcoming. And I'm also working on my first trade nonfiction history book, which will be about the women engaged in politics during the French wars of religion, which is the origin story of my research. But if you'd like to find me over on substack, I would love to to talk with you more about these fabulous women and so many other fabulous women who lived in this period.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (53:29)

Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

Historian Natalie Donnell (53:32)

Thank you. It was lovely to be here again. Thank you for having me back.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (53:36)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit. Thanks also to my researcher Max Wintle and my producer Rob Weinberg. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetudorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tudors From History Hit.

RecycleOn Advertiser (54:12)

From the Cascades to PDX to your kitchen, we recycle like we live here. That's why governments, brands and recycling companies are all joining together to bring change to make recycling better. As in trusting that your recyclables end up in the right places to be made into new things and having brands help fund the code costs of recycling. You can find the Latest updates at recycleon.org Oregon From Mount Hood to the bin under your desk, together we can do this.

Chumba Casino Advertiser (54:42)

Summer's heating up, and so is the action with chumba casino and 2311 racing. Whether you're trackside with Bubba, Riley and Tyler or cooling off at home, the fun never stops at Chumba Casino, the online social casino packed with free to play games like slots, blackjack and more. Jump into summer@chumbacasino.com and score your free welcome bonus 2 million free gold coins and 2 free sweeps coins. No purchase necessary. VGW Group voidware prohibited by law. CTNC is 21 + sponsored by Chumba Casino.