Professor Susannah Lipscomb (3:03)

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (3:33)

In November 1545, Edmund Harvel, Tudor representative in Venice, declared that the famous conquest of Boulogne shall be a perpetual monument of the most mighty King, Harry viii. Besides noting that it was perfectly normal to call Henry VIII Harry in the 16th century, what I want you to recognize is how very wrong Edmond Harvl was. Historians talk and write surprisingly little about Henry VIII at war, and write almost nothing about his conquest of Boulogne in 1544. The backstory to this is that Henry had invaded France in June 1513 with a force of 25,000, capturing the little town of Terrouane in August and the larger Tournai in September. Peace was negotiated in 1514, which included marrying Henry's sister to the French king Louis XII, and a peace treaty of 1518 was celebrated at the Field of Cloth of gold in 1520. But in the 1520s the English again made raids on the French coast, and a thrust across The Somme in 1523 even threatened Paris before freezing weather and mutinous men forced a retreat. Stephen Gunn has described this as the last campaign of the Hundred Years War. Wolsey petitioned parliament for money to fund the King's wars in 1523, but not enough was advanced and so a truce was reached and peace declared in August 1525. And in 1527, an Anglo French treaty of perpetual peace was signed by both sides. And then of course, English foreign policy took a very different turn, all focused on the king's great matter. And in the aftermath of the break with Rome, the threat became one of invasion, not an inability to invade.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:15)

But after Charles V and Francois I, king of France, fell out in 1540, Henry entered into negotiations with Char, a joint invasion of France. They signed an Anglo imperial treaty promising a joint invasion in 1544, and in honoring that, Henry led The largest army then ever raised by an English monarch to invade France. Three or four times as many soldiers as Henry V had led to Agincourt. On 18 September 1544, Henry entered the surrendered town of Boulogne in triumph. And now Henry saw himself as a military conqueror and this conquest as one of his greatest achievements. And yet historians, when they've mentioned it at all, have been rather scathing about it today, led by a historian who has taken the campaign and capture of Boulogne seriously. I'm going to explore the nature of that campaign, its conduct, the devastating impact on French civilians, and how the conquest and colonization of boulogne in the 1540s can change our understanding of Tudor rule. My guest today is Professor Neil Murphy, head of the Department of Humanities at Northumbria University in Newcastle. He's published five books and 30 articles or chapters on the history of medieval and early modern France. Today, we're going to be talking about just one of those. The Tudor Occupation, Conquest, Colonization and Imperial Monarchy, 1544-1550, published by Cambridge University Press in 2019. Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. And this is not just the Tudors from history hit.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:50)

Professor Murphy, welcome to the podcast.

Professor Neil Murphy (6:52)

Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:54)

Can we first of all address this lacuna? Why hasn't Henry, as a military conqueror in the 1540s, entered the story of his reign?

Professor Neil Murphy (7:02)

Wars have been seen as a sort of sideshow to the real matter of his reign, which is, of course, the Reformation, the marriages, everything tied up with that there. His wars have been sort of relegated and in part, I think they look sort of unimpressive, perhaps to 16th century historians compared to what happens during the Hundred Years War. Henry V conquering half of France, for example. Henry, as you mentioned, at best conquers a couple of times, Tournay and then Boulogne later on. So little small sort of pockets of France. Although we'd say the situation in 16th century is much different from what Henry V's facing in the 15th century, a sort of weak France. But anyway, it sort of looks unimpressive in that way. On the other side to that, there's the vast amounts, money, I would say, that go into Henry's wars in France, as you mentioned. These are the biggest armies ever raised. They're ruinously expensive. He fights to hold these lands and there's been a tendency to see him as sort of squandering all this money, the money initially accumulated by his father and left him. And then, of course, the money from the dissolution of the monasteries in the 1530s and 1540s. So it seemed to be, I would say, a sort of wasted effort. Not much comes of it, not much lasts of it at all. They're gone within years of his reign, so looks perhaps falsely, I would say say, unimpressive to modernize.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (8:19)

And in 1543, Henry didn't really need to go to war, did he? So why did he invade France?

Professor Neil Murphy (8:25)

It's a good question in that way. It had been years of peace for France, particularly since 1527. And making of a very important piece, really, 1525 brings an end to, really, Henry's ambitions of becoming King of France. There's a Battle of Pavia, which is fought in Italy. Henry's got nothing to do with it, but it's led by his allies at the time, defeats the French, captures the French king. And in the immediate week of that battle, Henry rubs his hands together and thinks, now my time has finally come. I am going to be the King of France. He suggests a plan to Charles V to let's dismember France between him, me and indeed James IV of Scotland. Unsurprisingly, Charles V doesn't like this plan whatsoever, setting up Henry VII as king of France, obliterating France. So that, in a sense, brings an end to really, Henry's ambitions to arguably be king of France. He starts to move much more closer to Francis. The first makes his peace in 1527, 1532, everyone talks about the Field of the Cloth of Gold, of course, but their second meeting at Boulogne and Calais in 1532 is very, very important, leads to a decade's worth of peace. Henry's recognition, or France, is the first recognition of Anne Boleyn as his sort of, you know, Queen of England and waiting and a very long period of peace. But it comes to an end in that way. In part, it's to do with shifting ambitions. Of course, Charles V not very keen on Henry as long as Catherine of Aragon is alive, once she dies. And indeed, you know, there's moves to bring them sort of re reconcile these two allies. And in the 1530s, Henry's main concern with regards to Charles V is that he will invade England with a very large force. And as you mentioned, a very large fortification effort takes place in England then. But by the early 1540s, the pictures change somewhat in that way, and there is an opportunity again, the breakdown of peace between France and Charles V. They'd be growing closer. I of Charles v in late 1530s, early 1540s, that breaks down Charles and Habsburgs move closer to Henry again. And of course, Henry's great matter, which I would say is war with France. This is what dominates his reign, sort of. In many ways, the divorce or the annulment of the marriage is a distraction from his great matter of fighting in France. This allows him to have a final go again at winning conquest in France, winning territory in France.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (10:44)

There's a wonderful line from Thomas Risely, I think it is in the late 1530s, when France and the Holy Roman Empire look like they're possibly conspiring to invade England, where he says that England would be made but a morsel, which I quite like. And he's right. You know, that's the size of the threat at that time. But now, the point we're talking about in the 1540s, Henry is a threat. So we've mentioned the size of the army a couple of times. Let's put it into some numbers and tell me how it compares to previous armies.

Professor Neil Murphy (11:18)

So you're talking about at least 36,000 men, as a conservative sort of estimate, perhaps more. Then you can bring in. There's mercenaries that comes in later on. But it's a massive, massive military effort that impacts right across England from Newcastle right down to the south coast, particularly the south coast. In many ways, half the peers of the realm fighting the campaign are involved in it in some way. So it brings in this whole military cadre of men participate, are invested in this massive campaign takes place. He brings a sort of country behind him in many ways. It's massive amounts of state resources go into this as well, too. The processes of raising the men, I guess, draw from sort of all over the kingdom in that way. It becomes, in comparison to its first campaign, I guess, is a few thousand men, the gascon campaign of 1512. Then we hit 1513, the army goes up more, about 26,000, as you mentioned, but it keeps on going up. This is the really. This is the big one. And in some ways, I would say Henry has always been seen as a threat by the French, even in his early campaign in 1512. It's a very small army. England, then is not what England was during the Hundred Years War, but there's a real fear in France of what the English army will be able to do. They talk about, you know, the days back to the Hundred Years War, when English armies came and I know, and defeated and conquered. And that fear still lingers a bit in France. There is a. Still a strong fear of the English army that persists right throughout Henry's reign. And Actually is given a strong degree of credibility when Henry can bring these massive forces, forces over the Channel and conquer territory of the French. Should remember this is the particularly in Boulogne, the greatest territorial expansion of English rule on the continent since the reign of Henry V. Little bit less in comparison what Henry V does, but nonetheless, nonetheless, it is a threat itself. And perhaps the other aspect to that is even when he's not fighting on the continent in the 1520s, he bankrolls or he offers money to Charles V too, which helps fund wars within Italy. So Henry's a source of wealth to be used for military endeavours in the continent, but also he's a major military force in and of himself.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (13:25)

So could you describe then the military campaign of 1544 and the plans to take Montreuil and Boulogne?

Professor Neil Murphy (13:34)

Boulogne in particular had long been a target of English expansion going back to the Hundred Years War. It had long been a target. It's a key channel port, much like Calais was situated close to the Low Countries, the commercial centre of northern Europe at that point. Point brings access to its markets located fairly close to England, just the other side of the Channel. Very easy links then, you know, particularly with southeast England, particularly with Kent, so able to get back and forward so you can, in terms of bringing in military supplies, bringing in men, in terms of trade and economy, a vital port. It's also a base for French pirates, and French pirates have attacked English shipping within the Channel, so that would remove this nest of sort of piracy as well. So it had long been a name of English monarchs, but English monarchs have traditionally failed to conquer it. Edward III tress conquer it in 1340, fails. Henry VIII's own father, Henry VII, tries again and he fails too. So there's a certain element of prestige in taking this as well. The other aspect to it, why Montreuil and Boulogne? Whenever earlier campaigns had aimed at Paris, arguably in 1520s, he talked about getting crowned in Notre Dame in Paris in imitation of Henry vi, who this had happened a sort of century earlier by that point, I think English ambitions are shifting in this point is no longer about trying to restore the dual monarchy of the Lancastrian dual monarchy which existed during the 15th century. What Henry's interested in by the 1540s is expanding the Peel, that is the region and the territory in France, which is really part of England. It's not. English monarchs don't rule it as part of their French possessions, so to speak. It's a little morsel of England, I guess, in that way. On the side of the Channel. And he's more interested in expanding that. So expanding English territory on this hill rather than trying to make himself the King of France. I think his ambitions have changed somewhat between the beginning of his reign and the end of his reign. And where Boulogne and Montreuil are located is just beyond Calais, the next big area, just beyond. And by bringing them on board, he would effectively expand the Pale considerably.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:43)

Right, So a key part of your argument is this idea that in the 1510s, 1520s, Henry is claiming to be rightful King of France. And I mean, he carries on using the fleur de lis, but that when we get to the conquest of Boulogne, and particularly the symbolism of Henry's entry into Boulogne, there's a different justification for this. So what had changed and why does this matter?

Professor Neil Murphy (16:12)

A major change is the beginning of his reign, the 1512 campaign, the Gascon campaign itself, the first campaign of his reign. It's really aimed initially at sort of Normandy and Gascony there, two really long standing ancestral parts, the continental possessions of English monarchs going back to the 12th century. And Henry II, of course, in this way. And he's interested in restoring almost the sort of, you know, the Angevin empire in that way, bringing these territories back. That doesn't work out. It sort of ends with his embarrassment in Europe. In many ways, the campaign collapses. So in 1513, decides to return, do the job himself, then leaves a very large army. This time it's about taking on becoming King of France. And he rules Tournay as King of France in that way. And the entry into Tournai is all about traditional entry into France. Then we have a couple of campaigns in the early 1520s. Again, Henry thinks that all these people in northern France, northeastern France, are going to come over and join his reign. He's been told, because his allies in French, the Duke of Bourbon, he's going over to his side. It's almost promised to him. This doesn't work out. The people in northeastern France aren't really interested by that point. So that really brings an end to that first phase. And then 15, 18, 25 in Pavia, where he doesn't get the dismembered France really ends that. I would say, though, that the king of France aspect never completely goes away. It's always a card that he keeps there. So I could claim to be King of France, but maybe we'll hold it back. So I think sometimes we expect greater consistency from 16th century monarchs than we do from our own leaders today. I could Think of an example. I won't name names, but a certain political leader today might say one thing in the morning and then a different thing in the afternoon and we're left guessing about what we'll do. There's not necessarily consistency. And Henry's a bit like that to some degree. So he has tried the King of France aspect beforehand and wholeheartedly seemed to embrace it. By the 1540s he's realized that's not going to work out, that he's not going to be made King of France, that he's not going to be welcomed by the people of France as the rightful King of France. But he doesn't completely disregard it. It always is kept there in the background and indeed comes up a little bit in the 1540s too. But the major change that takes place the 1540s is that it's about now it's focusing on England, extension of English rule on the continent in that way. And we'll leave this to the side a little bit more. And that changes the nature of the war and the prosecution and the character of violence in the 1540s, which is extremely bad and extremely severe. Because now Henry's justifying his rule by the right of conquest. I'm coming, I'm bringing this army, I'm conquering all this territory and by this long standing right of conquest that goes back to the Romans, if not before biblical presence and long before that as well, that this is my land now because I've conquered it by military force. So that's a key argument that he brings out in the 1540s in that way and plays down, doesn't necessarily get rid of his legitimate rights to this land anyway. But now he brings to the fore, I've conquered this land, it's my land to do with as I see fit. I can do with these people as I see fit in that way.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (19:18)

So I suppose we could perhaps characterize it as the first or at least an early colonial conflict.

Professor Neil Murphy (19:26)

I think. Yes, I think it is colonial. I mean, the problem with this term is because there's so much baggage associated with their time. We think of it in terms of what happens of later colonial projects as well. But this colonial project, I think it was a colonial project, involves the establishment of colonies, false English settlers. It's not the first one in France. Calais itself was a colonial project back in the 1340s. Henry V had himself had set up sort of colonial towns and there was colonization into France by English people during the Hundred Years War too. I would say it wasn't really a colonial project or a colonial war, the 100 Years War, we'd got little aspects of colonization, but the key aim there was always the crown of France. Henry V was the rightful King of France. That's what he was aiming for in that way. So this changed, though, a little bit by the 1540s. Henry's moved away from that a little bit and he's more concerned about, as I say, building up this English territory. And that involves bringing, ideally, English settlers into this territory, not trying to rule the French people. As King of France in 1513, whenever he conquers Tournai, he's very magnanimous towards the local population. They take an oath of loyalty to him. We will be loyal to you. If King of France, he allows him to keep their goods, their livelihoods, their possessions all intact, as long as they agree to recognize that he's the rightful King of France. No massive colonization. In de Tournai, there's a garrison that comes in, but that's really about it. It's run by French laws, run by French traditions, preserves all that. There's 1540s. That doesn't happen. 1540s, this is a grind. This is a year zero in many ways. This is now to be ruled as part of England and these people are English and they initially, at least, attempt to ensure that everyone who settles there is English. This ultimately fails, but perhaps pick that up later.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (21:15)

What are the terms that are agreed then, for the treatment of the Bolognese people? What's on paper?

Professor Neil Murphy (21:21)

On the 18th of September 1544, the town surrenders. City surrendered by Vervain Jacques Cousset, Lord of Vervins. And it's been a very brutal siege. They've effectively there was a French garrison there, but they've largely been left to defend them for selves. Francis I is also dealing with an invasion of eastern France by Charles V at that time as well. So he's not able to muster the forces necessarily in defence. Massive English army, lots of English artillery. Massive siege goes on right through the summer, led by Henry VIII in person. Not inconsiderable effort by him, who was very, very sick at the time. As you know, after his body, particularly the legs, he also is in his legs to get across the Channel. But he leads a siege in person. Very conscious to be seen to be doing that. The city then sort of falls itself. And in the terms that are made, Henry agrees that he will spare the people. There we go. Anyone in the town who wants to leave can leave in that way. And this is enacted. This is A lie to some degree, too. In contrast to Tournais, though, what he's not doing is saying, you can stay in the town, you can keep all your possessions, you can keep all your goods, and trying to keep everything effectively intact as it is, with all your nice French laws, nice French customs, nothing will change bar king of monarch. For Henry, everything's changing in 1544. With regards to Boulogne, part of the.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (22:41)

Originality of your work comes from the fact that you've consulted contemporary French sources which tell us about the actual conduct of the English in the aftermath of the surrender. Some of these accounts are horrifying, but please, can you talk me through the behaviour they describe with the warning to the listener that these include atrocities?

Professor Neil Murphy (23:00)

They do include atrocities, quite sadly, the types of atrocities that still continue today in terms of how war against civilians is fought. I'm going to go back to the start and just talk about the character of violence on the campaign itself in 1513, when Henry invades. It's not that it is violent, of course it is violent. It's a warfare itself. But some efforts are made to spare the civilian population, you know, to stop harassing the soldiers in that way. And the same in 1512. In 1544, this changes, though. So the character of Ans is pretty nasty towards the civilian population of Boulogne and its wider region, which is known as the Boulognet. It's particularly severe against the population of the countryside. In contrast, the townspeople, who live behind nice fortified walls, have garrisons to protect countryside people live in villages. These villages are obliterated in 1544. They're destroyed, they're systematically burnt by English troops in a deliberate aim to depopulate the region itself, as well as sort of burning the villages. And there are massacres of civilians that take place. So to give an example, the only fortified place within a village might be a church, and civilians, trying to protect themselves from the violence of the soldiery, might take refuge in the church. And by doing so, they are, according to the laws of war at the time, putting themselves into opposition. They're making themselves targets for violence then, in that way. And what we have is massacres of civilians taking place within churches too. So we have a civilian population that's systematically driven out of its villages. They flee to woods and cave systems that exist then. And English soldiers scar these. These are refugee populations living in miserable conditions within woods itself. And English soldiers score these to systematically drive the population out of the boul, destroy all the infrastructure, the crops, all the means of producing food. Mills, anything that can be used to sustain life. The aim here is to create an artificial desert that's incapable of sustaining life, in which the population are forced to leave either because they've been killed, or they have to move out of the region because there's simply no sustenance there any longer. I talked about countryside people being disproportionately affected by the violence, but women are also disproportionately affected by the violence of Tudor soldiers. Not just Tudor soldiers, but all the soldiers fighting within this region, particularly rape and sexual violence that widespread accompanies this type of warfare. And what goes on in 1544, they return to the example of so the people. So Henry pardons and he allows the population of Boulogne to leave, as he puts it, unmolested. He says, I guarantee that these civilians will be allowed to leave Boulogne. They'll be allowed to pass through the region to go into a French region, and my troops won't harm them or harass them. So the population doesn't indeed leave. They take their goods, they move out with their goods. And almost as soon as they're beyond Henry's view, they are attacked by soldiers in fighting for Henry viii and the population are cast. And there's the rape of the women times when it takes place as well. So it's pretty horrifying stuff, pretty horrific stuff.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (26:05)

And why were the English acting in this way? How did they legitimise this violence?

Professor Neil Murphy (26:10)

I guess this goes back to what Henry's trying to do in 1544 here, and what he sees. He's trying to conquer this region and he issues sort of proclamations saying he's going to invade and any resistance is made to him, people will be treated as rebels, effectively. No, I should make the point. This is all done in a very legalistic way, according to the English, see it as the legal interpretation of the laws of war. And by their interpretation of the laws of war, any civilian population that offer any resistance to them, and this can be any form, just simply fleeing in front of a soldier as a form of resistance in that way opens them up to the first horrors of violence, according to the contemporary laws of war at the time. So we have groups that are protected. Civilians are generally, in theory, protected by the laws of war. Women, women should not be attacked in that way. Children should not be attacked. The clergy should not be attacked. Women, children and clergy are killed in large numbers in 1544. So it's this legalistic notion that they are rebels. And once you term someone A rebel. All these restraints and violence are moved against them in that way. They're sort of removed, and you can initiate what violence, in a sense, you need. So this is all done according to, as they see it, the sort of laws of the time, the contemporary laws of the time. I'll give an example of perhaps how this works in pressure. So English soldiers fighting in 1544 are issued with a book containing the laws of war, and it's read out to them as these troops lead. And these laws of war say things about not attacking villages, not burning peasants houses down, not molesting civilians at the time, the countryside people. But of course, this is exactly what English armies go on to do in the most systematic and brutal way in 1544. Thomas Howard, at one point. Thomas Howard is Duke of Norfolk, one of the commanders of the Tudor armies at the time. And quite early on in the campaign, he hangs English soldiers by the side of the roadside because they have went and burnt some houses without his say so. And this may seem sort of odd because then they go and burn some houses in a village. He hangs them because this is done without his say so. He then goes on and obliterates the village, burns it down completely. There's a slight tension here. Why is he doing that? So he's hanging the soldiers not because, in the sense of what they'd done, but because they've done it without his express orders in that way itself. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, there are, in theory, protections afforded to civilians in the laws of war at the time, including those very specific ones issued by the English. But because these people are characterized as rebel, they're effectively removed from that. They're not afforded these protections of warfare. And this opens it up. This also ties in with what Henry's trying to do in the region, which is remove that French population and develop this as an English colony, Although that sort of comes later. This provides the preconditions for that. I guess, in a way, from the.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (28:59)

Point of view of a French peasant living in this area at the time, what options did you have? It looks like if you stayed put, you would be killed. If you fled to try and seek sanctuary, you would be killed.

Professor Neil Murphy (29:12)

But your options are very, very limited. No matter what you do, in a sense, you open yourself up to this violence in that way, and really, really nasty sort of violence, as we've seen. So to flee, I guess, what the population tries to do. So English campaigns up to that point, and including Henry's campaigns up to that point, have fairly been short lived in that way. He comes in attacks in 1512, sort of summer months, early autumn, 1513, the biggest campaign. Again, it's really, you know, summer, early autumn and that way, 1522, there's a campaign launched, cuts, cuts through France. Then the English army go home. 1523, here for the summer, they go home. Indeed, French commanders point that out to the English in 1544 you'll be here for a couple of months and then you'll be away again. We don't need to bother. And the sort of French population probably of a similar type of view, if they can sort of remove themselves to place of safety like these sort of makeshift shanty towns in, you know, in woods, these refugee camps that they put up in Rhodes or what we have is underground cave systems, some of which still exist and you know, quite developed underground cave systems that people have been using quite a long time, including up the Second World War, to hide from occupying soldiers in that way. If we can sort of hide ourselves and protect ourselves there, just keep rid of these soldiers and they'll go in that way they'll disappear. But in 1544, the soldiers don't go, they stay for quite a long time. The war lasts for two years. It's constant devastation, constant soldiers in the region. And so there aren't any options to. So the ones who can, I guess, flee, who get out. The ones who survive and we go and we know they go to neighboring towns. That's not always a happy story either, I have to say. We've got large amounts of refugees from Boulogne and Boulogne flee to French towns on the sort of the end of the, on the edge of a conflict area. And some are welcomed, but others are driven away in that way because of the concerns that this is going to put the stresses of food and provisions and victuals that this is going to put in these French towns, they have a really miserable experience. And bear in mind many people will have had their houses destroyed, all their goods left. They may have been attacked and molested on the way too as well. It's a really, really grim picture in that sense.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (31:24)

And one final detail of the grimness of the picture is the weather, isn't it in the immediate aftermath?

Professor Neil Murphy (31:29)

Oh yes, the weather's horrendous. This is another major factor within it. So the summer, early autumn of 1544 is unusually wet in that way. It's unusually wet and cold and sources talk about that too. And so one of the ways in this has fatal consequences for the population at the time when everything is burned, even when you're not directly killing someone. And we do have some massacres that take place here of civilians. They do absolutely take place, but most of the killing is done via starvation, to be quite frank, are people being driven into disease and starvation, people being driven into living conditions that aren't fit for human life. In that way they can't really sustain humanity life. And the weather has a part of that. So where we have people's houses being destroyed, the means of shelter being destroyed, being driven on the road and we have large processions of refugees on the roads of the area trying to get out. And there's one very well again, grim description by a Welsh soldier called Ellis Gruffy who's fighting within Henry's army at the time. And he records, he's a direct. Obviously he's one of the soldiers fighting, but he records these processions of refugees leaving. He records how they're half starved, they're emaciated, they're dressed in very poor clothing because the clothing may have been taken on it. And they're in. The weather is so inclement. Heavy rains, cold rains, nowhere for them to shelter as they move through because the places have been burnt, the houses being burnt anywhere of shelters being burnt. Talks about many of them dying of disease as ever. Disease is such a big killer here in that way. Different types of malaria type infections that people picked up to do with sort of starvation to do with the weather. That really awful combination of factors kill large numbers of the people too.

Verizon Advertiser (33:19)

This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on MyPlan and a brand new smartwatch and a tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you. Or two for you and one for someone else or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on root metric truth score report dated 1 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet. Additional terms apply.

Grow Therapy Advertiser (33:49)

Grief doesn't keep a calendar. Anxiety doesn't clock out after five. Depression doesn't care if it's your busy season. But support can still fit into your life with you can find a therapist who meets you where you are. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more. To find a therapist who works for you and if it's not the right fit, switching is easy. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Find therapy on your time time, evenings, weekends and Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, GrowTherapee is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acasta availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

HeroBred Advertiser (34:57)

Holidays mean feasting. From cheddar biscuits to French toast bakes, Herobred has you covered with 0 to 5 grams net carb and high fiber options to ensure your holidays stay delicious and balanced like their 3 grams net carb pan au chocolat, Herobread is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code fall25 at checkout. That's fall25 at HERO CO. All figures are per serving of Herobred contains up to 17 grams of fat per serving. See the product nutrition panels on Hero Co for more information.

Evergreen Virtual Academy Advertiser (35:27)

Are you a parent looking for an independent, flexible and tuition free school in Oregon? Evergreen Virtual Academy offers a dynamic and tuition free public education with Oregon certified teachers for PK through 12th grade students. Your student gets a laptop, live class sessions and the ability to chart their own unique path. Plus in person events and social activities all year. When school has no walls, learning has no limits. Learn more and enroll now. Evergreen Virtual Academy evergreenvirtual.org.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (36:09)

And thank you for mentioning Elliot, Yes, Gopher's source. Tell me about the other sort of sources that we have and how credible they are really. How as much should we be convinced by the accounts within them?

Professor Neil Murphy (36:20)

They are, I think we have almost remarkable that Boulogne's not being looked up for because actually the quality of the sources is just so high and just so good by the 1540s. So. Well, on the face of it it doesn't look promising because whenever Boulogne Falls in 1550, the records are destroyed. All the records of the administration are lost in the same way away as happens to Calais in 1558. The records are probably destroyed and lost then. But because this quite highly centralized nature of the English state, we have tons of stuff within state papers, that is the central archives, the key government archives of the period which record in detail what's going on. To give an example, all these Instances of violence that I've been talking about there. Some of them do come from French commentators, some of them do come from people who we could see as being hostile style to what the English are doing. But a lot of it comes from the English sources themselves, who record in quite clear detail exactly what's been happening then. So it's fairly easy to cross reference and corroborate and check, you know, different elements of these stories, because the English are talking about what they're doing and indeed at times celebrating this as well, because this is a celebration of what they've done, of what they're achieving there, what the commanders are achieving in its itself. So we have sources from France, we've got the English sources too. We've got sources from the Low Countries as well, because lots of refugees also flee into towns in the Low Countries who are nominally, I guess, allied with England against France at this time. We do have some sources and refugees too as well. But sometimes that's the biggest group that's sort of missing in that way, particularly the lower classes, which is always the way, you know, the direct voices from peasant women. Although we have. Have, I should say maybe some. I find these sources amongst the most chilling I've ever looked at of sort of, you know, 16th century documents. We have lists. They're lists of basically tallies of things that have happened and they come from. I should make the point that this area is a hodgepodge of French and also imperial territories. So the Boulognet is mostly French, but actually there's little enclaves of Habsburg rue. This village may be surrounded by loads of French villages, but it's actually a Habsburg village. And they're also hit by the violence as well in the same. The conflict. There's a series of inquests into these villages to look at the violence of what went on. And they provide a systematic list of the infractions that the population have encountered, from how many houses were burnt to how many cattle have taken place, but also how many rapes took place. They sort of list that so many women in this village were raped in that way during the time they were in the village. And they provide a really grim disturbance, disturbing portrait of what the face of war looks for, how civilians encountered war during this period, which is pretty awful. It's awful in all periods, but it's pretty, pretty awful stuff.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:06)

And by comparison to that which is happening on the ground in France, what's the impact of the conquest of Boulogne in England at the time? Are people celebrating, I guess, this is other thing.

Professor Neil Murphy (39:17)

So it's probably the most celebrated. It's incredibly well celebrated. This is one of the great achievements of Henry Vian is the conquest of Boulogne. This is, you know, he's brought all this territory, it's celebrated right across the kingdom. There's always celebrations that far, you know, that follow successful victories in battle or successful wars. But the ones that really mark the conquest of Boulogne are particularly celebrated with great, you know, ceremony, great festivity right across the country. These. We have these. And if we look at the local records of English towns and villages right across the kingdom, we see little notes of celebrations that have went on across people, you know, in sort of village registers will make note of this in 1544, this is a year that the great Henry VII conquered Boulogne in that way. And they appear all over the place. So it's clearly. It's a mark of some celebration. Stephen Gunn makes the point that two of the things at the time that, you know, contemporaries, contemporary English society looks at, that Henry's. Henry VIII's two great achievements at time were effectively having a meal like there. And also then the conquest of Beloit, in that way, you know, it's seen as one of the great triumphs. Of course, when we think of Henry's reign now, we think of his great matter, we think of the Reformation, we think of the marriages, and, of course, in the long run, these things are important. But what was important for Henry at the time was this conquest in France. That was such an important theme of his reign right throughout.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (40:42)

So Anglo, a piece is agreed between the English and the French on the 7th of June, 1546. What were its terms and did Henry intend to keep them?

Professor Neil Murphy (40:53)

Good question. So its terms were as though this brings really two years, well, longer than that, two and a half. Because the war really begins in 43 with a little sort of campaign. But the real campaign begins in the summer of 1544, and it ends basically then two years later in that way. So two years of brutal, devastating war, which has brought this region to its lowest ebb, but also in which Henry spent large amounts of money, in which the King of France spent large amounts of money too, trying to protect it. So, and they fought to this sort of standstill. So a treaty is agreed, and this treaty allows for the territorial division then of this land itself. It's a very important sort of agreement that's sort of made at the time. And Henry effectively gets his aim of getting all these territories, or the bulk of the territories he's conquered are now become part of England in that way itself. He's. They're sort of handed. They're sort of handed over. Is agreed that these will become English territories. There is a sort of clause which allows the French to buy them back at that point. I think Henry's really envisioned as a long term sort of conquest in that way. And all what he does subsequently, we sort of back that up where he tries to turn it into a colony. But the treaty itself is quite important because it has. It brings into bear lots of interesting developments in mapping, in sort of the development of a linear frontier. Of course, when we think of that's how countries normally are today we have a very distinct border. Border. North of that border is one country, south of that border is another country, for example. That's not quite the case in the 1540s, where actually linear boundaries are a bit more ambiguous, particularly on the continent. I sort of made the point earlier that the Boulogne is a French territory, but these little enclaves of Habsburg territory within itself. And that's sort of common for this sort of region. Not linear, it's about what village owes, you know, what allegiance to its master that determines where land is. Henry was to get rid of that. So what he wants to do is to do a nice linear line. Behind this line, English territory ruled by me, other side of the line, French territory ruled by Francis the first. So he makes all these aspects of mapping and sort of cartography. And this is really Henry, really. Henry's always had a very keen interest in science and technology. He always tries to stay up to date with the latest, you know, intellectual movements in Europe. He invites these intellectuals, not just painters, but astronomers, your military engineers to England and he tries to keep abreast. And Henry's really the first English monarch, first British monarch, really, to make sort of mapping a key tool of government at the time. And it's really what happens in the 1540s during this peace treaty that really comes to the forefront. Because this isn't just a matter of writing down a map. This territory here, the Boulogne, goes over to England. What Henry does, he has to precisely marked on a map a geometric line, sort of on a map using the line latest, the current developments in technology to make this sort of possible. So that's another really big, I think, impact of this war. Not just the violence, but actually how the peace is achieved too. Really? In that way?

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:53)

Yes. You describe it in your book as visually representing the ideology of the right of conquest.

Professor Neil Murphy (43:59)

Yes, that's exactly and it gives us a real, I think maps are very good way to visualize what's going on here. We have typically, up to this point, point, of course, we've got tons of peace treaties up to this point, tons of territorial changes. The written documents can be a little bit imprecise. Even really up to that point, the borders of the Calais Pale were very imprecise, that no one really knew where England ended and where France began. And, you know, even some of the people living in this region didn't know whether they were English or French or under what king they were living. It was just all unclear. So Henry wants to get rid of that. He says he's tried this already to a degree in the 1520s, that with the edges of the Calais peel at the county of Guilty. But he really wants to do it properly in the 1540s, and mapping allows him to do it properly. So Henry has all these maps. Henry returns to England after the siege of Boulogne in 1544. But the development of maps allow him to follow the progress of the war visually. From London, from wherever he is in the southeast, he can see what his Army's doing in 1546, when peace is made. This allows him to see very, in a concrete way, way what territories he's getting and what's coming under his rule and to get rid of all those imprecise terms of territorial arrangements that are often laid down in treaties. This is a very clear. Here's a line. One side of it's mine, the other side's yours. So it has a real value of it itself. For an example of this, the river Lian, which goes through Boulogne itself is used as the sort of boundary of the territory. So Henry's new territory is to end at this river. And rivers, of course, are always used to mark territory in this way. But rivers, of course, particularly rivers close to the sea, are tidal and they've got different high points as well. So Henry has marked on one of these maps the high points of this river, because that's as far as his territory is going to extend to. And this means that the French king can't do anything nasty or underhand like try to divert the river, send it another way and that way. So all this is precisely laid down, precisely mapped out in that way itself, and nicely illustrated on a map.

Verizon Advertiser (46:16)

This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed Even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you. Or two for you and one for someone else. Or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on RootMetric Truth Score Report dated one each 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet.

Grow Therapy Advertiser (46:45)

Additional terms apply Grief doesn't keep a calendar. Anxiety doesn't clock out after five. Depression doesn't care if it's your busy season. But support can still fit into your life. Life with Grow you can find a therapist who meets you where you are. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty, treatment methods and more to find a therapist who works for you. And if it's not the right fit, switching is easy. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Find therapy on your tip time, evenings, weekends and Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, GrowTherapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (48:08)

And tell me about the nature of the English settlement and English rule at Boulogne following this treaty. I'm struck by the fact that that we have kind of a linguistic colonization happening in Ireland in the 1530s. Do we see something similar in France? And what about religious practice given that Henry is now head of the Church of England?

Professor Neil Murphy (48:33)

Yes, of course this really opens things up. So the treaty ends the war, but really opens up the settlement then of this region itself and makes possible now. So I think they have to decide what's going to happen happen in 1513. Nothing changes, you know, Internet, everything stays the same, laws remain, etc. Etc. 1546 in the Boulognet, in Boulogne this is the moment where major changes then take place. So what Henry does is he introduces English Common Law into the region. So these new territories are part of England. They're ruled by English Common law now in that way itself. So firmly integrate these regions. And similarly, Henry's Reformations also taken place by this point in 1513. Of course the Reformation was a sort of distant lay distance in the future by now it's taken place and the Church of England, Henry's church, as the head of the Church of England, becomes the church here. So that leads to the destruction of the monasteries. Well, in fact, the monasteries have already been destroyed here because during the course of the war. But they're not really not getting rebuilt now in that way. So all these religious changes have taken place in the 1530s all put into operation itself. So what happens after 1546 is they create two new counties there. So there's the county of Boulogne around the town of Boulogne, but there's a second county called the county of New Haven. And this one, this is a very traditional English practice, creation of new counties like you would find, particularly along lines in the southeast of England itself. That style of county is what they want here itself. So Boulogne acts, is really the centre of this new county of Boulogne. And what they do for the county of New Haven, there's a sort of French fishing village called Omebletuze, a small fishing village just at the mouth of the river. And that's destroyed. It's been obliterated during the war anyway, but systematically razed to the ground. And English built a new town there. They called this town Newhaven. This is a new, in a sense, colonial town. It's a fortified port, really, in that way. And Boulogne and New Haven have English administrations put in them now, in that way, under the Lord Deputy, the Lord's deputy. There's been Lord Deputy at Calais for some time. Lord deputies in Ireland too as well. So this is how the English, the Tudor monarchy, control the outlying parts of the kingdom. These lead over council staffed by English administrators, military councils, particularly in that way. What they do is they implement then a series of Anglicization measures, of which language is one, in that sense. Well, the first thing they really do is try to bring in English settlers. That's the very first thing. They particularly try to target people in Kent. I guess you make the point. The land they've conquered here is very, very good land, incredibly agriculturally rich land. In that way, it supports the model society which the Tudor government want to install, which is nice nucleated villages practicing mixed farming, arable farming, that is growing crops with animals to support as well as. And this land here around the Boulogne supports that very, very well. So they go to Kent and they start issuing proclamations. Come and move to the Boulognet. We'll give you cheap farms with excellent land at cheap rent, in that way itself. And this is possible, of course, because the French population have been cleared out now as well. So they're parceling out these. Not initially popular, I have to say, not many people in the settlers taken up. No great surprise, perhaps, given they're entering a former war zone which has been destroyed, and they perhaps want to see how things will pan out before they start moving. But it starts to become popular by 1547, particularly after. After Henry's reign. So it does pick up in that way itself. But the people there live by English laws. They live by English common law, by English churches itself. This doesn't quite work. So what Henry decides to do, he was very firm initially. No French people are to come to back. He now relents and says, okay, we'll allow some of the original population, that is, the population who've managed to flee and have managed to get out of Boulogne at the time, the Boulognet, to return to these lands. They're not given the original homes back, they're not given the original lands back. What they're allowed. They're given portions of land which they can work on. And this is. You mentioned Ireland, exactly what we see in Ireland, too, because you need a sort of a workforce to do much of the manual work on the farms here itself. So they're brought back within that context, too. But they are made to live under a system of English laws now, so that anyone who takes up a lease has to speak English. In that way, English becomes the language of the area. Now, this may not seem like a massive change to us, but then it was, because Calais and the Calais Pale was a sort of polyglot area. It was an English territory, but actually in the rural areas, highly Flemish, highly frequently French, where this was spoken. So that's to try to get rid of this now. And so everything's to be in English services to be in English, and English clergy's brought over to minister to these new French people in that way. How they access courts and records is all to be in English in that way. So that's a key instrument, I would say, of colonization here, even naming practices. They're meant to name the children not according to French or Flemish names, but according to English names from now on.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (53:35)

And of course, there's a garrison at Boulogne. Tell me about that. How many English soldiers. Soldiers served there and what were their conditions like?

Professor Neil Murphy (53:44)

Good question. So the garrison would fluctuate between about 5,000, about 8,000 people, which is massive for the time. Absolutely massive. The only other real points of Comparison are Calais had a permanent garrison that was the largest garrison too. There are little garrisons in the north of England in Berwick upon Tweed and Carlisle, but this far outstrips those. So this is a mass of soldiers here. There's no standing army at this time. The 36,000 soldiers I mentioned earlier about crossing with Henry in 1544 are people recruited. They're sort of recruits, you know, people you're just obliged to go and offer your service for your country, for your king in that way. You know, people are taken from their farms, they go, they fight for 40 days and then return in that way. They're seasonal fighters in that sense. But what we have here at Bologne is the creator tradition of the largest group of standing, you know, the largest standing soldiery in. In the kingdom, really. And these are veteran fighters. These are properly hard men who fought in, you know, many wars in that way. They're. They're given the name the. The Belloiners, I should say the people. This cadre of military troops that really comes together. Bologne later goes on to fight in other key conflicts in Scotland, for example, about a pinky just after Henry death. The Boulogners, these veteran military troops from France, Boulogne play a key role there. They do similarly in Ireland in the 1540s too, as well. And even putting down the rebellions in the late 1540s in England, these troops, these crack military troops who've become crack military troops by their service of Boulogne, live there. What were conditions like? Not great, I would have to say. So the men living there initially, this is a war zone. It's been destroyed, the town's been destroyed, the whole area has been destroyed. Food is pretty miserable in that way. I mentioned the Welsh soldier, as Griffith here mentioned earlier, gives very, very sort of. You can almost smell it or taste it. His description of the food the English soldiers or Henry the Tudor soldier offered this time, maggots through bread made of, you know, stuff that's not really flour and probably shouldn't be going in. So pretty miserable fare that goes on that way. And supplying such a number of soldiers with adequate rations, particularly soldiers who are fighting need lots of calories, you know, good quality food. They're just not getting it initially, certainly anyway, so conditions are pretty appalling for a lot of it. And then to add in the mix, you have a nice dose of plague. This sort of comes in 1540s, very nasty outbreak of plague sweeps through Europe and hits the soldiery at Boulogne pretty badly too. You can imagine cramped, unhygienic conditions, people on top of each other. People don't want to serve there. They see it as a death trap. People at the time talk about it being a tomb in that way. So conditions for the soldiers are pretty impressive, pretty miserable.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (56:29)

We've only looked at the period of Boulogne under Henry, who of course dies in early 1547. But it's three years later that Tudor rule in Boulogne comes to an end. Could you just briefly outline why that.

Professor Neil Murphy (56:44)

Happens and how in 1544 and 1545, 1546, you know, as you made the point at the beginning, everyone thinks this is the great conquest, the great legacy. Henry thinks this is his great legacy. You know, he's conquered this land, he's attached it to his English crown. It's going to remain, and they talk about this at various points, it's going to remain in TR rule for 100 years or more. So, you know, this is a now a new standing part of English lands. Henry dies and then that sort of things start to change in that way. First point is it's ruinously expensive. It's very expensive to try and maintain such a large number of troops to there in that way, because they need the garrison, really, because it's at this part of Europe where it's constantly under threat in that sense. They need large numbers of troops there. The initial idea, particularly in terms of colonization, was also an economic one, was that they'd parcel out these lands to English settlers, including. I should have made this point too. It's not just English settlers coming from Kent, but soldiers are given parcels of land there as well too. So soldiers serving in the garrison are giving farms. This is a very long standing process. Going back to Rome is what Roman emperors do. And when they bring in new areas on the far reaches of the kingdom, they settle soldiers on it, get them invested in the area. And the idea is that these soldiers will produce the goods they effectively need to support themselves. They grow the crops, raise the animals that they need to provide themselves and also pay taxes, which then go into maintaining these defenses. This doesn't really work out. It doesn't generate. Generate that, that amount of income itself. So it becomes reasonably sort of expensive to hold this. Whenever Henry dies, the priorities shift. So he's replaced, of course, by Edward Seymour, who actually had fought in Boulogne and had acted as lieutenant of the army there itself in 1545. 46. But after Henry's death, the situation changes. He's much more interested in Scotland now, to Some degree. We have a war fought in Scotland, Battle of Pinky, which I mentioned, takes place there. Edward Seymour seeks to replicate what's happened in France by extending English garrisons in the lowlands of Scotland to try and bring it under control. So the situation shifts a bit in that way, and there's just a guess, a declining interest in holding Boulogne, the French possessions under the sort of the protectors who serve for Edward vi then in that way, and I say, coupled with that, their sort of expensive financial aspect, but also the France that England are facing at this time in the 1540s, late 1540s, is again quite strong too, as well. So Henry II launches a war of conquest whenever he come. He comes to the throne in 1547, after Francis I dies. Traditionally, what the French do when a new French monarch comes to the throne, they'll try to win a major victory, take back territory lost, or else go to Italy, fight in Italy. Henry does both of these things, things, and he launches campaign against the Boulognet, gets a lot of it back, doesn't get Bolognese back in that way. And so it drags on for a little bit longer and then it's returned to France by the means of a treaty in which lots of money is then paid and the English return the town to France. This happened before. This happens with Tournay. After five and a half years of English rule, after 1513, it sold back to France for a large amount of money. So there is precedent here as well, but it's certainly not how Henry VIII was envisaging things. I think as he lay on his deathbed, you know, in January 1547, if he thought about this, he could probably feel very happy with his achievements there. In that way. I have this view that these will be long lasting memorial to him. Unfortunately, things change and this doesn't pan out.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (60:18)

And so do you think the memory, as it were, the historiography, the way that we talk about Henry's conquest of Boulogne, if we talk about it at all, is with this kind of Edward interpretation, stressing its futility, its narcissism, perhaps its lunacy in terms of costliness.

Professor Neil Murphy (60:36)

I think that's right, because I think this really brings to an end several centuries of major conflicts on the continent. So under Elizabeth, we have Elizabeth launches In the early 1560s campaign against Le Havre at the time report, but it's quite a small campaign. It captures Le Havre, but the emphasis is to try and use it to barter to get Calais back. Calais has been lost a few years earlier in 1558 in that way. And then we have Elizabethan action shifts to the Low Countries a little bit during the sort of wars there. But there's no major conquests in that way itself. What shifts then is the move towards looking towards to Britain and Ireland and then the New World in that way itself. A lot of the people who do fight at Bologne do like to have their participation in it memorialized. And we have lots of the families who sort of took place place. They're like to have them, you know, almost shown standing next to Henry, you know, at the siege. In reality, they'll be nowhere near him at the time, but they'll have been there and they, they. This is still a carry some prestige. But that prestige I guess starts to go. I think Walter Raleigh at one point he starts talking about very critically about, you know, Henry having squandered all this money, you know, in these French wars, when actually what England should really be doing is doing what he's doing, going loft into, you know, the new world itself. So that generation started I guess becoming sort of quite critical of it itself. But at the time, you know, even for a little bit after people do, you know, it is seen with that big emphasis and even Elizabeth when she makes her speech famous speech at Tilbury, is sort of harking back to Henry's warrior king sort of image. Woods probably still, you know, still the older people could still remember of the kingdom. But yes, then I think that this view that it's a waste of squanders goes out as a England's and later Britain's focus moved into the New world, into the Atlantic world to end.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (62:24)

Then you've presented a completely different way of seeing the conquest of Boulogne and indeed the damage that is done in its aftermath. And argued that this is one of the most important events of Henry VIII's reign. So to summarize, how do you think an understanding of the conquest and the colonization of Boulogne by the end English should change our view of the Tudor period, of Tudor rule?

Professor Neil Murphy (62:51)

My hope is with several things, I guess in that way that made the point at the beginning that Henry's war is often forlorn, forgotten about, you know, left to the side. Well, actually for Henry, his wars were. His wars, particularly with France, were arguably the most important aspect of his reign. He comes to the throne absolutely set on emulating Edward iii, Henry V. These are his heroes, boyhood heroes, continue right through about conquering lands. And this continues right throughout the only decade he doesn't fight in France's 1530s, and he's got other things going on then, shall we say, in that way. But this is really important to him in that way. And if we want to understand Henry viii, we need to understand his wars, we need to understand his conquests in that way, because they were so fundamental, so central to his conception of kingship at the time. And then the centuries of later, of course, we can see the importance of the Reformation. That's really, really lasting aspect of his reign. But this, for Henry at the time, this is what he wanted to be seen as a major European prince on a par with Francis I, Charles V, to restore England's place at the very forefront of European politics, European diplomacy. And that's what Henry really sets about achieving to do. I think it perhaps also should make us look a bit more closely at how we understand, understand the origins of early modern English, later British colonialism that way, which in a sense is seen as something that begins in Ireland, perhaps with Elizabethan, really, really from the 1550s there, with the development colonies there, but particularly in Elizabeth's reign, and then the idea that these colonies that are sort of transposed simply across the Atlantic to North America in the 17th century itself. And actually, Sir Boulogne's a little important bit that goes in between those little colonial expeditions of the later Middle Ages, especially with Calais, and also then what happens, because many of the personnel, the people who fight at Boulogne, people who implement this colonial vision at Boulogne, then go on to do the same in Ireland and these early colonies in Ireland itself. And indeed, even in the Elizabethan period, we talked about memory of Boulogne still there's a remembrance of what's happening, how these colonies worked in France in the mid 16th century and saying, well, we need to do something like that here again. So the memory of does go through, but certainly in that key transition period in the mid 16th century, it sort of complicates it a bit more. I would like to also bring the focus back to the continent, if you know what I mean, rather than make it just about what's happening in insular terms in Britain and Ireland, to remember that actually England was looking very much to the continent. It did very much want to be involved within continental affairs. It saw itself as a major continental power. So I think in that that when it's the European position and in terms of wider and later English colonization.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (65:39)

Well, Professor Neil Murphy, this has been an important revelatory history of a part of Tudor England that is often overlooked and it has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Professor Neil Murphy (65:57)

Thank you very much for having me on. I very much enjoyed enjoyed that.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (66:00)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit. Thank you also to my researcher Max Wintour, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line at not just the tudorsistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors from History Hit.

Verizon Advertiser (66:36)

This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you or two for you and one for for someone else or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on Root Metric Truth score report dated 1 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet. Additional terms apply.

Xero Advertiser (67:06)

Take control of the numbers and supercharge your small business with Xero. That's X E R O.

Xero Advertiser (67:15)

With our easy to use accounting software with automatic automation and reporting features, you'll spend less time on manual tasks and more time understanding how your business is doing. 87% of surveyed US customers agree Xero helps improve financial visibility. Search Xero with an x or visit xero.comacast to start your 30 day free trial. Conditions apply.