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Not Just the Tudors
Henry VIII on Screen: The Historians' Verdict
01:05:11
Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by a panel of experts to discuss Henry on screen and what those portrayals got right or wrong
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Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit with a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series A World Torn, the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
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Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome.
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To Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore.
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D
Everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs.
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A
From Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare.
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To samurais relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely awesome.
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A
The Tudors. Few English monarchs loom larger in the public imagination than King Henry viii. Straddling the line between man and myth, he's best known for his infamous Silver Six marriages and his penchant for cutting people's heads off. But where does the fiction meet the facts? In this special Not Just the Tudors Lates episode, I'm joined by a Panel of experts to discuss how Henry VIII has been reimagined onto the screen and what those portrayals get right and wrong. Who will we decide has given the most convincing portrayal of Henry? Will it be Damian Lewis in Wharf Hall? Robert Shaw in A Man for All Seasons? Jude Law in the recent film Firebrand? Or Charles Lawton way back in 1933 in the private life of Henry VIII? That was the moment when eating a chicken with your hands became an abiding image of Henry and his allegedly voracious appetites. Joining me on the sofa once again are some of my regulars. Historian Dr. Joanne Poole, author of the House of Dudley and Thomas A Life and Death in Tudor England. Award winning writer Jesse Charles, author of the Siege of Loyalty House, and the multi talented columnist and screenwriter Alex von Tunzelman, most recently author of fallen idols. 12 statues that made History. Together we'll be comparing our favorite film portrayals of Henry VIII and exploring why this figure continues to fascinate us on film more than 500 years after he.
- [04:08]
D
Came to the throne. Henry VIII has been played by everyone from, I don't know, Ray Winstone to Keith Michelle, Robert Shaw, Jude Law. But let's concentrate on four characterizations and then. But feel free to bring in anything else you want. It seemed important to look at major depictions over time. Should we start with Charles Lawton, the Private life of Henry VIII? So this was made in 1933 and its director was the Hungarian born Alexander Korda. And it stars Charles Lawton, who was this major British stage and screen star. And it was critically very well received. Pretty much unanimous support of Lawton's performance. Variety said it was the finest picture that has come out of England to date. And actually, even more recently, Simon Callow says it's one of the most achieved performances in film history. So it was the first British film to receive an Oscar and it broke box office records. It was the first film to conquer the American market and it was the first English language film to put Henry VIII on screen. Shall we go to its most famous scene?
- [05:24]
E
Call this a capon. Look at that. All source and no substance. Like one of Cromwell's species. Marry again, breed more sons, course brutes.
- [05:58]
D
So that gives us a bit of a sense of the tone of the film. What do you make of it, Jo?
- [06:03]
F
It is a masterful performance, isn't it? I mean, it's hilarious, but there are layers to it. There's a suggestion that he knows what he's doing in the juxtaposition of tearing apart the capon and Complaining about manners, and he's asserting himself. He's using that silence, isn't he, to be quite funny and to level critique at people like Cromwell who are trying to force his hand.
- [06:28]
G
Jesse, he's clearly a stage actor. He's a great classical actor. And it's 1933. It's not that long that they're talking on film, and you can see that he sort of fills the screen and he's this great presence. He is utterly repulsive. I mean, you feel kind of disgust at watching it, don't you? He's loathsome. But as you say, joke. You know, his performance sort of grows and grows and grows throughout it. And there are moments of great sensitivity as well. And, you know, there's a scene when his son Edward is born that is absolutely lovely. And I think Lawton is great because he played monsters. He played sort of human monsters. He played the Hunchback of Notre Dame. And he captures the contradictions of Henry VIII that will. I'm sure we'll discuss further.
- [07:14]
H
I think this completely sets the mold for how the 20th century would see Henry VIII. And actually beyond that, not just Henry VIII, but actually sort of history more broadly. I mean, the influence of this scene, I think, is quite hard to overstate. I think if you look at things like the Excalibur show in Las Vegas where they feed you a chicken and you've got bare hands and you've got to eat it, or medieval Times restaurants or Renaissance fairs where they serve turkey legs, similarly, it's this idea. So the official food of history is now chicken, thanks to this scene. I think this is what's basically happened. And this concept of, like, Tudor and medieval Renaissance, broadly, that whole kind of scope of history that gets swept into popular culture as a sort of block.
- [07:56]
G
Disney.
- [07:57]
H
Yeah, Disney. All of this is, you know, this big, jolly guy. He's actually not jolly, as you've seen that scene. He's quite threatening. But the idea of this big, jolly guy ripping apart a chicken, a capon with his bare hands and shoving it into his mouth, I think this absolutely sets the mold for a kind of whole school of historical fantasy that develops and that persists today. Absolutely, yes.
- [08:20]
G
The epitome of gluttony.
- [08:22]
D
Yes. But isn't there something also that's. It's satirical? I mean, Jo, you suggested he knows what he's doing, but there's an element in which we're laughing at the past, don't you think? It's kind of irreverent. And we're suggesting that people in the past were less well mannered, were more unobservant of themselves.
- [08:44]
H
Yes. Although he's kind of satirizing that, isn't he? Because in a sense, I mean, the whole scene is Henry behaving as disgustingly as possible. Other people are not eating like this. They're being more refined while saying, there's no refinement nowadays, isn't it? You know, he's sort of daring them to notice. So I see the scene as a real statement of power, you know, that's what it is. And, you know, and as Jace said, the silence of everybody else. No one else is talking and he's making jokes and they don't even really dare laugh, but he just keeps going because he controls it.
- [09:19]
D
Yeah.
- [09:19]
F
There's a performance within a performance here, isn't there? Because one thing this film does brilliantly is bringing in the servants, for instance, who are gossiping about what's going on, cutting to the courtiers who are watching and commenting on it as well. And so he is performing to that. He is fulfilling expectations, he's undercutting expectations. And so Lawton has made Henry VIII a performer as well, an actor as well.
- [09:46]
G
Alex, is it too hammy, would you say? I mean, when I. I think you have to watch it a few times almost. I think the first time I saw it, I was kind of like, how could he have won an Oscar for this? It's so hammy and it's so camp. And yet, as you say, there are subtleties to it. There is this sort of loathsome but lovely element to it. And he is very much so sort of feeding off the audience. And, you know, again, there's this sort of scene when Jane Seymour dies, and he's like, oh, God rest her soul. Anyway, on we go. And, yeah, he's sort of laughing at himself. I think that's the contradiction with Henry viii. Do you play him for laughs? Do you ham it up? Do you lean into the caricature, you know, the shape we all remember, the barrel chest, the enormous codpiece, all of that? Or do you play it a bit more straight, but perhaps slightly less memorably and less iconically and less Disneyland and all of that?
- [10:34]
F
I think there's an interesting question there, you know, and it requires us knowing who Henry VIII was. And, you know, we've all encountered him in various guises, but there is something inherently, I think, ridiculous about Henry viii and there is something powerful about laughing at him. So it's not just humor for humor's sake, I think. He is ridiculous. And Lawton plays into that.
- [11:00]
D
Let's have a look at one more clip and then we can talk a bit more about this characterization of Henry. Because one things I think this film makes us consider is, are we looking at a kind of vulgar, bombastic, tyrannical Henry, or are we looking at someone with whom we sympathize, who's vulnerable?
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E
Your grace is sad tonight. What can we do to cheer your grace? What could you do to cheer my loneliness? Your grace is lonely now. That is the penalty of greatness, sir. Greatness. I would exchange it all to be my lowest groom who sleeps above the st with a wife who loves him.
- [11:34]
D
So given you said, Alex, that this is a sort of foundational portrayal of Henry, what do we make of his characterization in this film?
- [11:44]
H
It's quite fascinating, isn't it? Because he does have a sort of sensitive and vulnerable side. You know, for all the kind of bombasts of the performance. And that's absolutely there, you know, we suddenly see this man who actually is quite open about being vulnerable. And it is, of course, the film called the Private Life of Henry viii. I think something that's really interesting about this depiction is that it's really focused on Henry as the central character. Whereas, of course, what becomes very popular later in the 20th century is usually Anne Boleyn, but one of the wives, most commonly Anne. And this film actually starts with a title card that says, you know, Catherine Maragin's very respectable, boring, skip her pretty. And then comes in and Anne's already condemned. And it goes on into the later wives, which is total different narrative shape than this story will later acquire for most viewers. You know, people who kind of consume their history through screen, which, of course, many of us do most of the time in our adult lives. And I think that's really interesting because it does change the story from one of, you know, the kind of classic and narrative is, you know, King madly in love, destroys kingdom to wed woman, then kills her. This narrative is much more like King already disappointed in love, sort of desperately searching for something to fill the hole in his heart. And it completely changes how we see the story. He's quite sweet in this scene, quite vulnerable. Do you agree?
- [13:10]
D
I do, I do.
- [13:11]
G
And it's almost like he's, oh, God, I've got to marry again. They're making me marry again. My people, you know, I wouldn't do it if I didn't have to. I think the wives. I think you're absolutely right. There's no Anne Boleyn.
- [13:22]
D
What A relief.
- [13:23]
G
What a. You know. But the Anna Cleaves character is. It's actually his real life wife again. You can see that they've come from the silent movie era. It's so expressive. I kind of like. Even though of course it's completely ahistorical. I like the idea that she is being so repulsive to put him off because she doesn't want to marry him. I like that. I don't like the Katherine Howard who's far too old, far too early as well. But yeah, I think he is quite sympathetic. I mean, I think the other thing is he is being beset by France and the Holy Roman Empire at this time. And you know, it is made in 1933 when Hitler becomes Chancellor. There is another story going on here. Alexander Korda, the director, is a great propagandist in the Second World War. He was knighted, he worked on a lot of propaganda and he was friends with Churchill and Churchill actually, they were good friends. And Churchill watched this and he said he loved it. But he said there was a little bit too much chicken bone munching and not enough England building. But there are very obvious lines saying, you know, new territories will only lead to more war.
- [14:27]
H
More, more war.
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G
France and Germany are going to ruin Europe and only England can stand up against them soon.
- [14:32]
D
I mean, it's quite, it's certainly of its time in that kind of cinema of empire. It's quite imperialistic and xenophobic and it's really anti French. Yes, it is.
- [14:43]
H
I.
- [14:48]
F
Was just going to say on, on the point of him being sensitive, it really fits with what I see as a childish portrayal of Henry viii, which is, I think again, maybe accurate to some of the things that we know about him and fits very well with my favorite performance of Henry viii, which is Robert Shaw in Man for All Seasons, where he again has this childishness to him. And so the sensitivity that we see is of a slightly whiny child. He's, you know, he's lonely.
- [15:15]
H
He.
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F
He lost his favorite toy, one of his wives, you know, and he'd like a new one.
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G
And that's why at the end you.
- [15:21]
F
Mentioned 4 and 5, we get Catherine Parr who is essentially just his nurse all over again. And it's his nurse who always is able to chide him and control him and the only one he really listens to. And I like that idea of he's a toddler tyrant throwing his toys out the pram. Yes.
- [15:40]
G
David Starker said the Humpty Dumpty of.
- [15:42]
H
Nightmare.
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G
With the plucked eyebrows and one.
- [15:46]
D
Other reading of this is he's actually arrested at adolescence. Greg Walker, writing about this film, says that the subject hero is immature and awkward is a kind of precursor to the Carry on films. So I wonder if we can look at one more clip, which I think tells us a bit about the film's treatment of love and sex and gender, but also a bit about how it engages with historical authenticity. Jane Seymour, of all people. Whatever could the king see in her? Oh, she's very sweet.
- [16:13]
F
Yes, but does the king like honey.
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D
With his milk and water?
- [16:16]
F
There's so much that's interesting going on in this scene one. We come in with women's voices. Women are very important in this film. He is almost subject to that throughout the film, and I find that very interesting. But what I love is his entrance. He is stepping out of the Holbein. I just think that that is fantastic because we get this sense of history brought to life.
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D
I'll tell you.
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E
No, tell. If I were not a king, what then? All right, ladies.
- [16:56]
A
Come here.
- [16:58]
H
Iconic, I think, is not, you know, an undue word to use for it. But he comes out and straight away he becomes human.
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E
Look at me. What would you call me?
- [17:11]
D
I should call you, your majesty, a man.
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E
So I am un.
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D
Glad of it.
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E
And you may be glad of it too, one day.
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A
Blushing.
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E
She must be new to the court. What's your name, wench?
- [17:41]
D
Catherine Howard, if it please, your majesty.
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E
It does, Catherine. It does.
- [17:52]
D
So what do you make of him, Jo?
- [17:56]
F
There's so much that's interesting going on in this scene one. We come in with women's voices. Women are very important in this film, and not just individual women, but a sort of a company, a group of women, Women talking, women's views. He is almost subject to that throughout the film, and I find that very interesting. But what I love is his entrance here, because this is the first time we see him in the film. And he is stepping out of the Holbein and almost awkwardly, like a puppet. And I just think that that is fantastic because we get this sense of history brought to life, but also a very certain particular portrayal of him.
- [18:37]
A
Alex.
- [18:37]
H
Absolutely. I mean, that painting that even audiences at the time would have been familiar with, the Hans Holbein classical portrait of him, you know, in this huge kind of linebacker kind of jacket and, you know, just this enormous, broad man against this background and kind of. And it is. It's actually an incredible cinematic moment. I mean, iconic, I think, is not, you know, an undue word to use for it. But he comes out and straight away he becomes human very, very quickly and he become quite sexy. A bit flirty.
- [19:10]
D
What?
- [19:11]
H
Well, you know.
- [19:12]
D
But a little pathetic as well.
- [19:13]
H
But a little pathetic, exactly. Well, I mean, I think it is, though, because he's flirting with her and he's quite witty. The flirting?
- [19:19]
G
Yes.
- [19:19]
H
You know, there's a.
- [19:20]
G
He's trying to be sexy but not trying.
- [19:22]
H
I mean, depends on your taste. But he's not. But he's not a complete victim of the situation. The women have been kind of, you know, dissing him and there he is actually taking control of it a little bit and not being intimidated by it. I think that actually is quite powerful in that way. I think it's really interesting.
- [19:41]
G
Yeah. And actually the very first scene is, again, it's the ladies all sort of touching the royal bed. And that sort of harks back to later when I think there was. His codpieces were in the Tower of London in the 17th century. And you would get all these ladies queuing up to put their needles, prick the copies with their needs in red.
- [19:58]
D
Velvet to try and make themselves pregnant. They didn't know their history.
- [20:03]
H
Yeah, yeah. Not sure that's gonna work.
- [20:04]
D
Yeah.
- [20:06]
G
But, yeah, so there is an energy there, but, my God, there's no chemistry with any women.
- [20:11]
H
Oh, no, no, none.
- [20:13]
F
And that's where I think the patheticness. You know, he's trying so hard to be such a sort of virtuoso sort of sex magnet, and he just isn't. Perhaps my favorite scene is when he's about to enter Katherine Howard's chambers much, much later in the film, and he kind of ad himself in this kind of very almost sad but cute kind of way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, I can't remember if he actually checks his breath, but, you know, there's that sort of setting himself up.
- [20:45]
D
He actually speaks to the camera as well. It's a kind of early fleabag moment. But also, I'm struck by your comment about the women, because this is the period when they've just created this new mass electorate. Women, you know, under the age of 30 have just got the vote. And so suddenly there's going to be lots of young women who are making decisions about politics, who are going to the cinema. And I wonder if they're being spoken to in this film. Jessie, what do you make of it?
- [21:10]
H
Well, perhaps. I mean, it's also an era where you're coming out of the silent era, when actually an awful lot of filmmakers were women. You know, a lot of writers, directors, and so Forth were at this point, with film becoming more prestigious, guess what, they're getting elbowed out and it's becoming more of a male dominated medium. But I think you can see here that the film, even though I do think it's focused on Henry as the protagonist and it is, you know, he is the kind of lead character of the film and the one who has the emotional journey. There's a lot of space for women's voices in this film. There's a lot of space for women characters to be as you saw them there even in that short scene, to be quite complex, fully realized characters with things going on in their own heads and their own imaginations. So, you know, it's kind of treading quite an interesting line in gender terms.
- [21:57]
G
And the nurse, you know, she's the one who can really speak truth to power and tell him, you know, don't put your shaggy beard on that baby Edward. You know, Edward's just born and that's, that's really lovely. And there's almost. And you. There's a sort of sense, there's a sort of buffoonish element to him that is not unlike a sort of Boris Johnson or a Donald Trump. And that someone like a sort of unthreatening midwife nurse type can tell them off and they will not immediately slap her or sort of shout back. You know, they, they almost. It almost goes back to the sort of infantilization. You know, they want to be chastised to a degree, but by the right type.
- [22:33]
F
You know, there's something very Shakespearean almost about it. You know, this sort of feisty nurse and the influence of gossip in women's voices and then the sort of the under the stairs and the fools who are chatting about the fools who are. Who are powerful.
- [22:48]
H
But also think about how this has influenced the whole of how historical drama has evolved. You know, if you look at something like Upstairs Downstairs or if you look at something like Downton Abbey, they all also rely on this interplay of the kind of servants and the aristocrats and all of this, like this, you know, this is pretty groundbreaking in terms of how that is done on screen in a way that, you know, kind of moves it on from perhaps the novel.
- [23:12]
D
Well, let's have a look at another portrayal of Henry. Let's skip on a little bit. Let's go to 1969, Anne of the Thousand Days. This was based on the Broadway play by Maxwell Anderson and it was made by director Charles Jarrett. But particularly behind it, I think we can see how Wallace, who was the producer, he'd already made Casablanca and Beckett, he would go on to make Mary Queen of Scots with Vanessa Redgrave and Glenda Jackson. And we've got Richard Burton as Henry VIII and newcomer Genevieve Bourgeau as Anne Boleyn. And this is the tagline of the film. It says he was king. She was barely 18 and in their thousand days, they played out the most passionate and shocking love story in history. Given there are two factual errors in that, I think we can reach some conclusions about their approach to history. But should we have a look at a father? And you, my mother?
- [24:00]
E
God's sake, lower your voice.
- [24:02]
D
Do you know what it is to be in love, either of you? I love Harry Percy and will marry him.
- [24:07]
E
Anne, you'll have us all dead or disgrace.
- [24:09]
D
Lower your voice. Goodbye to it all. House, rank and revenues, for I will not take the King to my bed.
- [24:14]
E
Your Majesty. I was so anxious to. To see you, madam. I ran ahead. Have you been faithful to me or lying about with this husband of yours? Remarkable women you breed, you. Howard.
- [24:33]
H
One thing that's really striking about this scene is that actually it's the same scene as the last Charles Lawton scene. Obviously, this is Anne Boleyn, not Katherine Howard. It's different, but it is again a group of people trash talking about the King. He appears in a sort of outline. The room is silenced. He comes in and takes control of the situation.
- [24:50]
E
Give me a kiss.
- [24:52]
D
Yes, your Majesty.
- [25:00]
E
Now on the lips, sweet nan.
- [25:02]
D
I have been taking medicines for a cold. My breath is foul.
- [25:05]
E
Your grace, your health is very dear to us. You must needs keep well. We live all too brief a span. What little we have should not be wasted.
- [25:15]
D
Alex, what do you think of Richard Burton's portrayal?
- [25:18]
H
So one thing that's really striking about this scene is that actually it's the same scene as the last Charles Lawton scene. In that although obviously this is Anne Boleyn, not Katherine Howard. It's different, but it is again a group of people trash talking about the King. He appears in a sort of outline, the room is silenced. He comes in and takes control of the situation. It's actually a remarkably similar dynamic. And once again, he's sort of trying to be sexy and flirty. This time I would say it's a lot more sinister. I think the Charles Lawton one, in my opinion, is, you know, he at least I think, is quite charming. This is not charming?
- [25:56]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think it's impossible to talk about this film's approach to history without talking about its sexual politics. Which are so sort of in your face. If you watch it today, it's quite shocking. What do you make of it?
- [26:08]
G
It's very shocking. And if you look at the trailer, it says, this is the most wonderful love story. And then he slaps her across the face. I mean, this is obviously before any, you know, domestic violence legis. It is incredibly sinister. This is horrid. Henry. I mean, I have a visceral reaction to Richard Burton in it. I think he's completely so sinister, so unpleasant, so chilling. And, you know, he actually. There's no chemistry with Genevieve Bugeault. I think she's lovely. I don't like. I don't. You know, there's so much wrong with this, this film. I think it's far too long.
- [26:41]
D
It.
- [26:41]
G
You know, one moment that one loves one, then the other. It's never fully explained, but I would say I sort of grew up on this one. And I think you're very much shaped by the Henry that you grew up with, or at least the Anne in this case. I think Genevieve Bourgeau is lovely in it and kind of exquisite. And I hate Richard Burton in it.
- [27:01]
D
I mean, I think the narrative is supposed to be that there's a thousand days of their relationship. Not historically accurate, time compacted. But he loves her and then I think she yields to him sexually, and then she loves him and his love for her declines. So there's one day they love each other the same. That's. I mean, it's such a toxic idea about male female relationships.
- [27:25]
F
But I actually kind of. There's something about that narrative, as opposed to the traditional one that we get, that I actually. I quite like. I think in some ways, though, the narrative that we get in Anna's Thousand Days, I almost prefer to the one we're usually presented for Anne Boleyn, where she's withholding sex in order to control him and in order to become queen and to get this power here. She absolutely hates him. She's trying to torture him, she doesn't want to marry him. And every time he fails in his attempt to marry her, she laughs at him and go, you know, poor Henry, and sort of cackles. And there's something about that that I quite like. It's a different kind of power. It's a different kind of resistance that we see from her in this film than what we often get when we're presented with Anne Boleyn.
- [28:15]
G
What's never really explained is why she then suddenly loves him, because there's nothing redeeming about him.
- [28:21]
H
No, I mean, I think that's sort of my problem with this film. And I think, Jo, you've made a really interesting argument for why this is an interesting film, but I have to say I just fundamentally dislike this film quite intensely. I think it's so bleak about human nature. It is far too long. It goes on and on. Very prosy screenplay. I mean, very overwritten screenplay. Lots and lots of what they think is period dialogue, but really is just kind of massively obstructive to you, connected with these characters. But, yeah, I mean, the sexual politics are so horrible. And I mean, obviously you could say that's interesting. It is, but as a watch, it's very uncomfortable. And I can absolutely see why audiences today much prefer the feisty, sexy Anne Boleyn, because at least that gives you some sort of hope.
- [29:03]
G
You know, I have to say, my daughter is. It's half term and she's doing her GCSEs and I made her watch it last night with me and I thought she'd be like, right, I'd rather revise. But actually she sat through it and she quite enjoyed it, which I was quite surprised about. Although she did say the executioners are very zesty because they've got. I don't know, they've got very low cut tops. That was the funny masks on this that are slightly gill. There's one howler in Anne of A Thousand Days at the very end when she's doing the tally sticks and each tally stick is 100 days and she's supposed to. There's supposed to be 10 of them and she says one, when he loved me, when I loved him, when I bore a child, blah, blah, blah. There are only nine and I don't know how that was never picked up on.
- [29:49]
H
Wow.
- [29:50]
D
Attention to detail.
- [29:51]
F
Yeah, I'm impressed.
- [29:52]
D
One thing that's interesting about it is that the take it has on Anne Boleyn's fall, which is she miscarried of a saviour which comes from east of Chapuy, and that Answhall was engineered by Cromwell. I mean, this is a version that some historians argue. So it's trying to be in some ways historically accurate or authentic. How much does it pull that off, do you think?
- [30:15]
F
What I find interesting about this film, and it's playing with historical accuracy, is. Is, yes, her fall. And they do try to pull from some sources and histories as they existed in the 1960s, but they abandon that very much at the end when it's clear she's making a choice. She's Given the option to leave, she's given the option to escape with Elizabeth and leave with her life and chooses not to because she wants Elizabeth to retain her legitimacy. She wants Elizabeth to be queen and talks about her blood being well spent in order to promote Elizabeth. And so there's this idea that isn't historically accurate at all, but works very well, I think, for the film that she sacrifices herself to ensure that Elizabeth can reign. And she makes that argument, why not a woman? She'll rule over a better England than you ever did. And, you know, and it's kind of supposed to be, oh, well, it's all okay because we get Queen Elizabeth. But this idea that she chooses to go down in order to ensure Elizabeth can reign, I think it gives it that hopeful ending that maybe otherwise we don't have.
- [31:26]
H
Although it is a bit. I mean, it's a bit clunky, isn't it? It's quite a 20th century. I mean, you can sort of feel, not that the film is. Well, the film's kind of interesting from a feminist point of view, but it does, it gives it that sort of, you know, girl power speech at the.
- [31:41]
G
End, which Ginger Spice of the Last.
- [31:44]
H
Really doesn't sit, I don't think, in the kind of Tudor.
- [31:47]
F
Which is very interesting because we have seen a repetition of that in a recent film that's. That's how Firebrand ends as well, is. Is with this sort of, oh, but Elizabeth learns from this and, and goes on to be queen. And. Which I thought was very interesting because for 1969, I'm like, okay, that's not bad. But they've done it again with Firebrand. And you do see that repeated. I think there's a hint of it in the Tudors even as well, that, well, it's okay because Elizabeth, one thing.
- [32:13]
D
We should say, the private life of Henry VIII didn't have politics and religion in because it's the private life. But we also don't really have faith here. I mean, you're talking about Anne Boleyn and her agency, but her, you know, her faith, her thinking about these kind of cutting edge issues at the time was the source of much of her independence and originality. And it's completely omitted in this film.
- [32:34]
G
It's not there at all.
- [32:35]
H
I think that most films actually really struggle with that. And it's actually a theme through all of historical film in the 20th century, when you're looking at how they approach kind of medieval, Tudor, Renaissance, et cetera, subjects, is that you cannot talk to a modern audience about Faith in that way, because modern audiences mostly, obviously there are people of faith or religious people around, but actually majority audiences just don't really connect to it. They don't understand that as a narrative force. And the thing is, much as obviously we might sit here, as a historian being interested in how you would represent that. Filmmakers are just thinking, how do I get people to come and see my movie? And they know that's a huge turnoff for a lot of audiences. So they don't go there. They just don't go near it because it doesn't work for 20th century audiences. So it gets left out over and over again because you can't really communicate it in a simple way.
- [33:25]
D
Alex.
- [33:26]
G
I think that's right. They turn it into a revenge drama instead. She was in love with Percy. Woolsey doesn't let her marry Percy. She goes after Woolsey. Same thing happens in the Wolf hall versions. And that is far more relatable, I suppose, to modern audiences than this idea of sort of bringing the word of God in and her motives anyway, you know, sort of controversial, contested in that sense. And Henry VIII's religion is sort of up in the air as well, isn't it? So I understand that as a sort of conceit.
- [33:54]
F
Well, they make it all about Anne Boleyn, the break with Rome. I mean, I think a little bit with the Tudors and Wolf hall, you get a little bit more of the complexity of. He wants more authority. And there is a religious argument to all of this and, and so on. But I think in these early portrayals, and especially in film where they don't have the time to go into anything, the break with Rome just becomes about Anne, which is a very skewed version of history. Anne changes his character.
- [34:32]
I
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- [36:33]
J
For.
- [36:45]
D
Talking of his character, one more clip because we've got Richard Burton is Henry viii. Henry VIII is Richard Burton. I mean, let's have a look.
- [36:52]
E
What I do is God's will, and my prayer always is that he will allow no thought to enter my heart or mind. That is not his will. He has. He has never failed me, Thomas. But your majesty realizes that this might seem as.
- [37:07]
F
As what?
- [37:09]
E
As an excuse to do as you please, to eat the trough dry. I'm the King of England. When I pray, God answers. Yes, you're great. Let no man dare question that I'm.
- [37:26]
D
The King of England. When I pray, God answers. So even God bends to Henry VIII will, apparently.
- [37:31]
H
Well, this is exactly what I mean about how you depict Religion in 20th century Cinema is that it becomes ridiculous. You know, that Henry's making this argument and we've got Thomas Boleyn there, haven't we? Sort of saying, you know, you know, possibly this is just an excuse for you to do whatever you want, because that's what a 20th century audience is thinking. You can't just have him say this is God's will and that be a serious argument. So this tells you a lot about how that audience is perceiving that Sense of religion, that religion doesn't become a kind of really serious motivation for these people, which it absolutely was. I think if we look at Tudor history, it becomes a kind of, you know, a means to an end. It becomes opportunistic, it becomes absurd.
- [38:16]
G
Yeah. Also, shout out to Paddington, Michael Horden there. To a lot of us, you know, that's.
- [38:22]
F
That's.
- [38:23]
G
That's the voice of Paddington before Ben Whishaw. He was lovely.
- [38:27]
H
Confusing scene. If it had Paddington talking to Henry viii.
- [38:32]
F
I totally see what you mean about it being slightly clunky as well, because if we compare that scene with a very similar one in the Charles Lawton, the Private Life, he's trying to be convinced this time into marrying again. And he says, oh, but it will look as if I'm just, you know, responding to pleasures of the flesh and, you know, the carnal lusts and everything. And the advisor says, oh, but, you know, your people know you so well. And he just says, well, that's what I mean. And the capture is very much the.
- [39:02]
G
Same sort of thing.
- [39:04]
F
Message of that very, very long scene in a few very, I think, clever lines.
- [39:09]
H
I mean, the screenplay of the Lawton one is just so much wittier and lighter. This one is very. And I think that's. I mean, to be fair, look, as somebody who's written historical dialogue, you can get weighed down by the sense of responsibility to it. And I sort of feel that. That this is an example of that for me, that it's sitting so heavily on every scene. And you've got Burton and, you know, Genevieve Bujold really trying, you know, great actors doing their best with it, but actually, it's pretty turgid.
- [39:34]
D
There was one great line, though, which is they could not have had any doubt about the effect this would have with having Richard Burton say, divorce is like killing after the first time. It's easy. Yes.
- [39:45]
H
I mean, that's a brilliant line. And to put it in his mouth.
- [39:48]
G
And actually, Elizabeth Taylor has a cameo in here. She's one of the masked ladies who walks into the bedchamber. But I just. Yes, there's nothing redeeming about him. There's no charm with Lawton. There's a sort of sense of wanting to be a Renaissance prince, want this chivalric ideal of courtly love, wanting to be loved, you know, even if you're just in love with the idea of being loved. With Burton, he just wants to, you know, locker room talk and grab that girl.
- [40:13]
D
I think there's something about the age in which it's made. This is just after the code has changed about what you can show on film. So you can show adultery and incest and illegitimacy and all these things that you couldn't do before. This is a year the Easy Rider comes out. It's the year of Barbarella. So there's this kind of harder edge to characterization, to film generally at that time. I think.
- [40:34]
H
I think that's a really good point. Yeah, it is, and it's. And it sits in that particular place. And even if you look at, you know, similar things from the same sort of period, I mean, I think, you know, we mentioned the Robert Shaw in A Man For All Seasons, that Henry viii, he's warmer, much warmer. And it's still got that slight sort of playfulness and, you know, sense of, yes, possibly slightly unrested, adolescent, whatever, but there's that sort of edge to it a little. This one really is dark Henry. Yep.
- [41:01]
F
Well, we get, I think you were saying about Lawton setting the stage for our presentations of Henry and his historical drama in general, but I think this gives us that other Henry that we see maybe in Jonathan Rhys Meyer's Eric Bana.
- [41:15]
D
Right.
- [41:15]
F
As you say, that darker, tortured Henry very much owes itself to the Burton performance.
- [41:21]
H
Absolutely. I mean, this does get picked up again and again.
- [41:24]
D
And this is also about the same time as Keith Michel appears as Henry. How does he compare to Burton?
- [41:30]
G
Keith Michelle is far more civilized. He's the Renaissance prince. He wants to sort of convey this image of an educated, learned, musical, sporty, lovable Henry. The good thing with Michel is he sort of played Henry various times. So you almost sort of see him aging. And I think it was the first time it was on BBC2, and it was the first time BBC2 beat BBC1 in the ratings. It was very popular. And for some people who grew up in the 70s, Michel is the Henry slightly past me by, I have to say, but he certainly produces a more sympathetic Henry than sort of horrid Henry of Richard Burton.
- [42:04]
F
I think the other thing we get with Michelle, so I didn't grow up in the 70s, but I did grow up with Keith Michel. That was sort of my first experience of Henry VIII on screen is we get a wider range of Henry viii. You know, we start with a very young Henry all the way up to morbidly obese dying Henry. And we see that transition and you can tell, I think, a longer and fuller story. Whereas these were getting snapshots, and in some sense they're trying to shove everything into that snapshot. Of Henry. Whereas as we know, people change and for Henry viii he gets more paranoid and he gets more cruel as time goes on. And I think Michelle is able to show that development a little bit more.
- [42:48]
H
It's quite interesting when you get these actors playing Henry at different points in their lives and his life. I mean Charles Lawson played him again of course in Young Bess. And of course you've got in Wolf hall. There's such a big break between season one and season two that you can, you know, because I was watching the clips that we're going to watch side by side and you're like, oh yes, you can see that the actors are quite a bit older this time and it gives it a different flavour.
- [43:11]
D
So let's look at another depiction. This is skipping on 30, 40 years. We're gonna look at the Tudors. So of course this came out in 2007. Henry VIII is played by Jonathan Rhys Meyers and it did really well. He was nominated for a Golden Globe, it won Emmys, it won the Irish Film and Television Awards and critics were quite warm about him. It had this stellar cast, really lavish production, modern, fast paced and it sets, its cinematography were praised. The Guardian says it's addictive and beautifully shot. Was that you?
- [43:44]
H
Nope. I never wrote about tv.
- [43:48]
D
Entertainment Weekly said it was sexed up history for the HBO crowd. My favourite though is Mark Lawson saying it was soft porn disguised as history. Should we take a look? Please. You're so very beautiful, so very desirable. I have to possess you. Batalie.
- [44:13]
G
Basically sex every five minutes, isn't it? And silk boxer shorts and very accessible clothes and all sorts of things. What I would say that this has, that others don't is chemistry and desire and that is clearly a part of the actual story. And you don't get that with Burton and Orton.
- [44:32]
H
I am made head of the Church of England.
- [44:37]
G
Is it true.
- [44:41]
H
Then?
- [44:42]
D
I'm so glad at last you have your right and can do as you will.
- [44:52]
G
It is refreshing to see the young Renaissance Prince Henry. He was extraordinarily good looking and charismatic. We have the sources, you know, he was actually quite feminine looking when he was young and all of that. He was really beguiling and I think you get that with the intensity of Jonathan Rees Myers. And it's obviously wrong for a historian in so many ways, lots wrong with it. But I don't think he's the worst Henry.
- [45:17]
A
So this is a mash up version.
- [45:19]
D
Of history where we have him become the supreme head of the Church of England before Anne's Coronation rather than the other way around. What should we make of this?
- [45:28]
G
I was going to say not a lot. I think it's. I actually quite enjoyed it, I have to say. It's obviously wrong for a historian in so many ways, except that every now and again they really sort of stick on a point. That is, they've obviously got a historical researcher there who's given them a lot of information and some bits they picked up on. And every now and again, there's a Thomas Wyatt poem in there and it's quite lovely.
- [45:52]
F
No, actually, there's a lot that I like about Jonathan Rhys Meyer's portrayal of Henry. I mean, physically, in some ways, he's all wrong. He's too small, for instance, and as they try to age him up, they don't quite make him big enough and all of that. But one thing that I think he does capture is Thomas more at Henry VIII's coronation talks about the fire in his eyes and I think he captures that. There's something back there that is terrifying and that goes on a switch and that I think they capture. He's crazier than the other two portrayals we've seen.
- [46:25]
H
I mean, I'm a big defender of the Tudors and I absolutely know that it has historical inaccuracies in it, but so does everything, so does Wolf Hall. Quite honestly, it is the sexiest Tudors, but I think that is entrancing. And for me also, Natalie Dormer we saw very briefly in that clip is probably my favourite screen Anne, because she is incredibly smart, she's incredibly sexy, she really uses her power. I think she's extraordinary in it. I actually think she's brilliant. I mean, Jonathan Rhys Myers, I agree, is quite interesting, actually. Somewhat underrated in some ways, I think, but I think she is absolutely incredible in this role. And for me it was very interesting. I mean, I showed this to. I taught a course on British TV period drama, and I showed this and Walfall to, you know, young undergraduates, kind of 20, 21. They responded so much more to this than to Wolf hall, and it was really interesting to me. They didn't like the Anne of Wolf hall, they liked this Anne. They liked the one who was dynamic, who is intelligent, who was running the show. And of course, that's doesn't mean it's historically accurate, that's an audience response. But narratively, this show completely works and I think that's what drew people in. And of course, we must remember it made sales of serious history books on the Tudors. Go through the roof. So it did have a very positive benefit for historians as well, because people did want to know the real story. But I think that's what really hooks you in, is that chemistry is extraordinary.
- [47:49]
D
It's interesting, Jo, that you suggested there's an element of menace to Henry here, and I wonder what you think about that, because the fact that he remains this pretty boy, I think it was contractual that he wasn't going to get fat, that he seems to be really guided by what's between his legs rather than anything else. I mean, how do you take this as a kind of characterization of Henry?
- [48:13]
G
I think he captures the contradiction of Henry. I mean, as I was saying earlier, there is sort of the challenge for any actor playing Henry is do you lean into the caricature and ham it up and play it for laughs like Charles Lawton does, or do you try and show some sort of humanity behind? And I think with Rhys Myers, you definitely see a sort of a king who is in all his majesty, but is trying to be a person behind and who doesn't just want Anne, because he wants Anne, he wants her body, he wants her to love him. And yet there is that intensity. I mean, I don't think he's the best actor in the world, but I think in this he's harnessing everything from his own childhood and from, you know, all his experience. And I think there is hurt, there is want, there is a sort of lovely side as well as a vicious side. I think he captures the contradictions quite well.
- [49:05]
F
It's contradiction, but it's also consistency. I think with Henry viii, he wants control, right? He wants authority, and he wants that to be absolute and unquestioning. He's very paranoid about riots and rebellions. And that makes sense, growing up as he did following the wars of the Roses and as the second son, and all of that makes sense to his character. And so the possession of Anne, the fact that that comes along with the royal supremacy, it makes sense. And so there is a consistency here. And Jonathan Rhys Meyer still plays a sort of petulant child, and that childishness, I think, and that vulnerability still comes through in, as you say, a very menacing portrayal of Henry viii.
- [49:49]
G
And I agree with Alex about Natalie Dormer. She is so beguiling and desirable, and it's entirely believable.
- [49:57]
F
The characters, she was very committed to that role. She's said since that originally they wanted her to be blonde in the role, and she came in with dark hair and had to fight for Anne Boleyn to have dark hair and various aspects of the role she brought in from her own study of history. And so actually you see, season one is very shaky in terms of its historical accuracy. It's almost entirely invented. By the time you get to season two, and especially the fall of Anne, they're pulling right from the sources and.
- [50:26]
G
They get the timeline right. With the fall of Anne Boleyn and then Henry marrying Jane Seymour, quite often they do it on the same day or the day after. Whereas this, I think it, you know, I think it is 10, 12 days. Whatever the real time lag was.
- [50:50]
I
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- [52:01]
D
Well, you compared it to Wolf hall so maybe we should talk about that and we can do a bit more comparison. So Warfare of course is a TV series. It was based on Hilary Mantel's award winning books and series one, which came out in 2015 covered those first two books, Warfall and Bring up the Bodies. And then series two, which came out in 2024, covers the mirror and the light and its chief character is Thomas Cromwell played by Mark Rylance. But we've got Damien Lewis as Henry viii. It was award winning so it got the Golden Globe for best television motion picture or miniseries. It got baftas best drama series. Mark Rylance's best leading actor. But by contrast to the two films is much more like the Tudors in that what we're assessing actually is sort of 12 feature length films together in the series. Let's have a look at the clip. When finally you have out of Moore.
- [52:50]
H
What troubles his singular conscience, you'll find.
- [52:53]
D
Is that he won't bend his knee to my queenship. It seems to me the first thing we need to talk about is its approach to history. Because it's meticulous, isn't it?
- [53:02]
G
It is. Apart from when there are fictional characters introduced. But all of that is padding. But you're right, in terms of the details, in terms of chronology, it's very accurate.
- [53:15]
D
He knows it, but he won't admit it.
- [53:17]
E
He was my friend.
- [53:20]
D
And yet now, in this time of danger for England, when you need his support, he gives comfort to the enemy.
- [53:30]
E
This business of Thomas More, I don't doubt his loyalty to Rome, nor his hatred of your Majesty's title as Head of the Church. However, legally our case is slender. It won't be easy. I keep you for what's easy. Do you think I've promoted you for the charm of your presence? I keep you because you are a serpent. Do not be a viper in my bosom. You know, my decision executed.
- [54:22]
D
What should we make of this, Jesse?
- [54:25]
G
I think the Henry VIII is great because in all the others, you've got people whispering in his ear. This time he is the master, really, and the monster. And you sort of. I love this scene because it starts with him being a bit wet, going, he was my friend. And you think, oh, this is a slightly wet, raspy, lispy Henry. And then suddenly he turns and he's sort of. You execute it. And he's the one whispering, saying, wouldn't it be nice if someone just sort of handled this for me? And I quite like that, Alex.
- [54:57]
H
I think it's really. I mean, it's fascinating. I mean, Hilary Arantell spoke about this. She did the Reith lectures on this and she actually really didn't like the Tudors. And, you know, I mean, she said some brilliant things in those lectures, but she had a real go at the Tudors. And I got quite cross with that because I was like, well, actually, you're doing the same thing, though this is still an imagining of history, it's a different one. And yes, sure, you care a lot more about, you know, some precise period details, but ultimately you're still imagining what's happening in people's heads and hearts. I mean, this is still fiction presented for a modern audience based in history. And just because you've gussied it up a little nicer, it's not necessarily actually superior, you know, And I think this and this Anne, for instance, is a much more, you know, sort of naked. I mean, Hilary Barenthal really didn't like Amberlynn, this is very obvious. She's nakedly manipulative. She. She's uncharming. She's quite stupid actually, and certainly sort of miscalculates and frankly deserves to have her head cut off is more or less how it seems to be set up.
- [55:56]
D
I mean, there's a difference, isn't there, between being meticulous in the, you know, in the buttons, as Tom Hanks once referred to it? You know, you can recreate that look, you can use in this case, natural light and candlelight and visually it's perfect. But as you say, you're always creating characters out of the material. And not only did she not like Anne Boleyn, I turned to Jo. She also didn't like Thomas More.
- [56:22]
G
Well, and this was the point that.
- [56:23]
F
I was going to make is that absolutely there is a lot in the detail here and she did a lot of research, but she's also depending on the story as we think that we know it. And in a lot of the portrayals we've seen, as well as the ones that we've. We can recall having seen elsewhere, there is this turning point in the relationship between Henry and Anne, which is the execution of Thomas More. That Anne pushes him to execute Thomas More, he does, so that begins her fall.
- [56:51]
G
That's.
- [56:51]
F
That's the moment they sort of break. That combined with. It's often very much juxtaposed in the editing of it as well, her losing the stillborn son.
- [57:00]
G
But that's.
- [57:01]
F
That's the moment that it all breaks. There is no evidence whatsoever that Anne Boleyn hated Thomas More, that she pushed for that. It's Henry who is very much pushing for it. And when someone like Cranmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury, suggests a compromise, it's Henry who who loses it and says no, absolutely, he's got a sign to the whole thing, the supremacy and the succession, or he's got to go. At no point does the zan come into it at all. So that is invention. And it's an invention that gets repeated and repeated and repeated, and it is repeated here in Wolf hall as well.
- [57:35]
G
And of course the sort of central conceit of it, again, as we were talking earlier about it being a revenge drama, and in a way it is that it's Cromwell is taking revenge on everyone who engineered his master, Thomas Woolsey's fool. And at the very end he realizes that he was complicit and therefore he self sabotages. That's the narrative in Wolfhall. Again, no, not in the historical record. I mean, there's no way Cromwell would have self sabotaged. He would have carried on. You know, it was Henry. I mean, I take your point about Anne Boleyn having more power here, but I think she does. And maybe it's only in the second series more, when he becomes more volatile, more capricious, more irascible, far more unpredictable. But I think he is more the master in Hilary Mantel's Wolfhold than most of the others.
- [58:26]
F
I find it a very lackluster performance in some ways. I mean, here I am judging Damian Lewis as if I could do better, but I don't find he has the fire. I don't find that there is something that is physically terrifying about Henry viii and they commented on it at the time and we can see it in the way that he presented himself and just the physical size of him even before he had a waist of 54 inches.
- [58:56]
G
He's tall, though.
- [58:57]
F
He is tall, but there's just.
- [58:58]
D
I find it. I agree, actually. I compare it with Jude Law in Firebrand, who is a terrifying Henry. I mean, that's Henry as domestic serial abuser. And there you can really palpably feel both how revolted you would have been about his ulcer, but also how scary a presence he was. I mean, they take that to the nth degree, I think. And it's not that that film is historically accurate, but I feel that Damian Lewis possibly isn't as terrifying as he could be, but he is capricious for certain.
- [59:33]
A
What do you think, Alex?
- [59:34]
H
Well, actually, I think I want to sort of think about that notion of historically accurate here because look at how different all these films are in their take. Like, all of them have got a take. You know, Henry is everything from like this kind of lovable, cuddly, big kid through to, you know, basically a serial murderer. I mean, this is a pretty broad sweep of interpretations. And I mean, what it shows you is that actually all of these really have their own narrative. And I think, you know, all of them are fictionalizations. I mean, in real life people are complicated, obviously, and can have many different sides to them and all of this. But in film and tv, or you're kind of showing a narrative version that is different. And even if it's nuanced, which perhaps tv, there's a bit more space to do that. Of course you can, you know, bring out more because you're not trying to stick to 90 minutes or 2 and a half hours in the case of Anna, 1000 days or however long it is, but you are ultimately Doing a take and a reduction. And that partly depends who you choose as your protagonist. I mean. And obviously here, what's very different with Wolf hall is the other ones we've seen is that Cromwell is the protagonist here. So it's actually not Henry. It's not Anne, it's not any of the wives, none of this. It's somebody outside that situation. So we're seeing something a little different here. And the Henry is really a supporting character, Jessie.
- [60:49]
G
Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's a little unfair to blame Damian Lewis for not being the total Henry, because he doesn't have the lines, he doesn't have the space. And I think he's quite an unselfish actor in this. And I would love to see him star as Henry Leaf, because I do think he's got it. I remember when he was being cast, and I immediately thought of Soames Forsyte in the Foresight saga, which was his sort of breakout role. I think he was so menacing, so sinister, so nasty. And I think. I think. I take your point about lan Luster. And he is slightly raspy. He doesn't have that baritone that he needs. But I think there are moments of malevolence.
- [61:27]
A
Yes.
- [61:29]
G
I think there are moments where it is deeply chilling. And he almost sort of gaslights Cromwell in the last scene and sort of says, isn't it a shame that you let me down effectively, and we didn't have this dreamy reign that we should have had, you know, together? And so I think there is multitudes in his performance, but I don't think he. Because it's about Cromwell and it's about Cromwell and Woolsey. You don't. It's not amplified.
- [61:52]
D
I think there is some historical evidence that Henry had quite a high voice anyway. But I would like to ask you to try and. And step away from it a little bit. It's been produced so recently, it's harder to put in its historical context than 1933 or 96, now, even 2007. Alex, what do you think it says about the period in which it was made? Does it say less about the period it's meant to depict?
- [62:15]
H
Yes, that's a really interesting question, because it does. And as you say, it's harder to see, because it probably says things that we're not even aware that it's saying that in 10 years or 50 years will be incredibly obvious to us. And now we're like, oh, it seems like quite a neutral version to me. Of course, it isn't a neutral version at all. There is no such thing. I think, in terms of the filmmaking, I think there's a few things that are interesting. As I say, I think the kind of transformation of Anne into a kind of villain is really, really interesting. And it's very interesting, particularly because Mantel's writing, it's written by a woman, or at least the source material is written by a woman. And yet the kind of classic female central character that's developed during the 20th century is really not your heroine here, or even a sort of anti heroine. She's pretty much straightforwardly a villain. That's quite fascinating. And instead we have Cromwell coming in as the kind of complicated, nuanced character at the centre of it, the sort of anti hero of the piece. I mean, that's absolutely fascinating. But, yes, so in terms of the sort of filmmaking and storytelling of that, I think one thing is that you can see visually it's so different from previous versions. It's very dark. And actually, I think some viewers really complained about how dark it is. They're lighting a lot of scenes with candlelight. Cameras have really been changing in the last few years and it's become much more possible to do that. And I think some of this was shot sort of just before some of that happened and is very dark. I mean, I will give an honorable slash, dishonourable mention to the other Berlin Girl which has come in, which was directed by Justin Chadwick. And I mean, I did. I thought the end of Bloom Girl was pretty trashy, but he also made an absolutely brilliant series called Becoming Elizabeth, about the young Elizabeth I. And that uses that candlelight lighting. It uses all candlelight and these new cameras and looks absolutely incredible. So, you know, let's just say he, I think, big time redeemed himself with that series and you can do it now. So this is all part of a changing thing. You know, if you look back at the sort of. Of, you know, the sort of BBC era, you know, the kind of. The BBC era kind of Tudor dramas, everything's terribly brightly lit and this is all dark and intimate and internalized and. And that is. Yes, it's visual, but it also says something about our tastes, actually, and our perceptions of these things.
- [64:34]
G
I think, yes, it's very interior. It's very sort of feelings. It's very sort of what's unsaid and it's very fake news, almost sort of. No, it's not that Cromwell, it's this Cromwell and. And, you know, your truth is. Is a valid truth and all that kind of stuff. There's A lot of. There's a lot of looking at Mark Rylance thinking which is, you know, a little bit slow at times. But I think, I mean, I, I agree with you. The lighting, the location. I, I think also in this last series, the mirror and light, the tapestries and they, I think they did costume CGI it a little bit, didn't they? To enhance the colors and it's just gorgeous.
- [65:11]
F
The, the other thing I think that comes out of Wolf hall as, as a moment in time is, is the secularism. We've, we've talked about how difficult it is to get into those religious complexities and those religious conflicts. It attempts to, but its message is very secular. That, that, that stuff is wrong and bad and, and you know, that Thomas More, who feels so strongly about religion, is stubborn and, and a zealot. And so I think that comes across. I think the really interesting comparison is something like Anne of the Thousand Days and Firebrand, where in some ways it is portraying the same Henry. We just have two very different perspectives on whether or not that's sexy.
- [65:54]
G
Right?
- [65:54]
F
Like he's later in life, he's more grotesque, but in terms of his relationship with women and the way he treats them in the sexual politics of it, it's very similar. It's just Firebrand comes out the of and post me too moments, whereas 1969. There is something potentially sexy about that and masculine and that part of that machismo that made Richard Burton so.
- [66:18]
D
I mean, it's Sean Connery as 007, isn't it? It's the chauvinist who's really quite attractive. Which version of Henry, of those we've discussed, but of all that exist, would you say is your favorite portrayal for whatever reason?
- [66:34]
G
I do a shout out to Jude Law too. I think, you know, Dickie Greenleaf gone to seed and. Because he was just so gorgeous when he. Well, he's still gorgeous, Jude Law, but. But, you know, there is that sense of this one, you know, this guy who could have got anyone at any time and, you know, good on him, you know, receding and repulsive and I think he plays it very well. I also quite like Sid Jayne. I mean, not really obviously, but I quite like the beginning of the Carry On Henry. I think it's quite clever in terms of historical inaccuracy that they say a manuscript has been discovered and in fact, Henry VIII had eight wives and this manuscript was written by William Cobbler. It was thought once upon a time that the manuscript was Thomas Cromer's, but It turns out that it was all cobblers from beginning to end. I think that's quite a good sort of get out of jail. And the other thing I like about the Carry on is that they were going to call it Anne of a Thousand Lays.
- [67:32]
D
Which. Brilliant.
- [67:33]
G
Good on them. But I would go with Damien Lewis and I know I'm probably the only one, but I think there's a subtlety to that performance and an unselfishness which is not Henry, but with what he was given, I think he was great. I would just love to see him star as a Henry Joe.
- [67:50]
F
Yeah, I'd love that as well. I mean, I've said before man for all seasons, that portrayal of Henry VIII to me captures, as we've said, the sort of. The childishness and the graspingness of Henry. There's almost a sort of desperation. But having revisited all of these, I'm also. I've gained a new appreciation for Charles Laughton and the way in which he's layered that performance. And I think it's important to laugh at someone like Henry viii. You know, Jude Law gives us the worst side of that. And we've already mentioned people in our world today who might be analogues for that sort of character. And as dire and horrible as they are and their actions are, we have to needle their insecurities. Right. And I think Lawton's portrayal invites us to do that.
- [68:44]
H
That, I'm afraid, for me, it is Charles Laughton. Yeah. I mean, and actually, I think there's something interesting to be said about all of these. I hope we have said something interesting today about all of these performances. They're all valid and interesting, but actually, when you go back and revisit the Charles Laughton, because it's easy to misremember it or to sort of imagine it's something it isn't, that it's sort of complete. I mean, it is somewhat camp and it is overblown and all of that, but so is Henry. And it sort of matches that mood. And actually, when you go and see it, it's more nuanced and more I agree with Jo Layard than one sort of remembers it as. And I think every time I go back and I revisit it, I'm actually really more and more impressed with it. I think it is an extraordinary piece of work. He deserved the Oscar and, you know. And now we all have to eat chicken in a historical manner.
- [69:31]
D
Well, thank you so much. You've made me rethink each of these portrayals. I thought I had quite fixed ideas about them, but your thoughts have been so interesting and provocative that I'm now going to have to watch them again.
- [69:41]
A
With them in mind.
- [69:42]
D
Thank you so much.
- [69:43]
H
Thank you, Valerie.
- [69:46]
A
Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit. Thank you also to my researcher Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddow, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors from History Hit.
- [70:22]
J
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C
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