NOT JUST THE TUDORS: "Jane Boleyn with Philippa Gregory"
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Philippa Gregory
Episode Release: October 27, 2025
Main Theme and Purpose
This episode delves into the life, myth, and reality of Jane Boleyn, Viscountess Rochford—exploring her role at Henry VIII’s court, her contested legacy, and the way historical fiction can illuminate silent corners of the record. Esteemed novelist Philippa Gregory joins Suzannah Lipscomb to discuss the historical and fictional Jane Boleyn as depicted in Gregory’s new novel, examining the boundary between fact and invention, the complexity of Tudor court life, and the treatment of women in history.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Revisiting Jane Boleyn's Reputation and History
- Gregory explains her return to Tudor fiction after a decade, motivated by the evolving understanding of women’s histories and the need to challenge traditional, often negative portrayals of Jane (05:11).
- Quote: “I myself have had a sort of a revulsion from the conventional version of women, really right across the board... we are all really, really doubtful about the way women are told in the conventional older histories.” – Philippa Gregory (05:18)
2. Historical Fiction vs. History
- The difference between historical record and the novelist’s creative speculation is explored (06:16). Gregory defends the legitimacy and clarity of historical fiction as a “sidelong view at the historical facts” (11:01), offering explanations where the record is silent but always distinguished from fact.
- Quote: “I’m saying in the world of my novel... this is my idea of what might have happened. I’m not saying it is what happened.” – Philippa Gregory (10:09)
3. Life at the Tudor Court: Masks, Lies, and Politics
- Gregory uses the metaphor of the masque (court performance with disguises) as a central theme for Tudor life—everyone is literally and figuratively wearing masks, pretending, and strategizing (12:08).
- Factionalism, rivalry, and the omnipresent risk and opportunity at the court of a tyrant are highlighted.
- Quote: “Do not trust a word of this. Everybody is lying.” – Philippa Gregory (13:13)
4. Anne Boleyn’s Pregnancies and Henry VIII’s Vulnerabilities
- Gregory posits that Henry VIII’s trauma over failed pregnancies created a culture of silence around miscarriages, influencing how Anne’s possible 1534 miscarriage was handled (15:02).
- Gregory further characterizes Henry’s hardening after exiling Catherine of Aragon, suggesting Catherine was “the love of his life” (17:39).
- Quote: “When he exiled Catherine of Aragon, the love of his life, he lost his ability to love.” – from Jane in the novel (17:24)
5. Courtly Love vs. Reality and Henry’s Narcissism
- The panel discusses Henry’s conflation of chivalric, courtly ideals with real relationships, describing him as a narcissist obsessed with the pursuit rather than the object (19:58).
- Gregory links Henry’s psychological makeup with modern conceptions of tyranny and narcissism (21:30).
6. Anne Boleyn’s Complexity
- Gregory rejects one-dimensional accounts of Anne Boleyn, describing her as highly intelligent, ambitious, and deeply complex—a figure neither heroine nor villainess (22:44).
- Quote: “I am conscious that every single woman I know is an extremely complex woman... capable of great acts of generosity and also great acts of vindictive ill behavior.” – Philippa Gregory (23:02)
7. Key Court Events: Henry’s 1536 Jousting Accident
- Gregory offers a vivid, dramatic account of Henry’s near-fatal jousting accident as a turning point, both for the novel’s plot and the real historical narrative (26:16).
- Quote: “It is in that scene when Henry is unconscious... Anne can be Queen Regent and we can have a Howard Regency.” – Philippa Gregory (27:06)
8. Sex, Power, and Political Intrigue
- The court’s frantic efforts to restore favor to Anne Boleyn after her miscarriages are discussed—the heightened sexualization and desperation in Anne’s circle (32:51).
- Gregory connects actual historical trial evidence with her “speculations”—asserting that the level of sexualized courtly behavior was unprecedented and possibly misinterpreted as evidence of actual infidelity (33:21).
9. Jane Boleyn’s Role in Downfalls and Survival
- The uncertain historical record around Jane’s involvement in the fall of Anne and George Boleyn is addressed (36:34).
- Gregory highlights the influence of Victorian-era moralism in blackening Jane’s legacy and reconstructs her as isolated and uncertain—a survivor left to navigate power alone.
- Parliament’s intervention to grant Jane her marital home and dower after George’s execution is cited as evidence of Cromwell’s patronage and Jane’s luck and political savvy (40:48).
- Quote: “She ends up with a fortune. She is independently wealthy. Instead of being disgraced and widowed and poor, she has a very, very handsome income, an enormous stately home.” – Philippa Gregory (44:17)
10. Jane as a Female Machinator: Influences and Agency
- Gregory reveals a key research discovery: Jane’s father, Lord Morley, translated Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and gifted it to Thomas Cromwell—suggesting Jane was well-versed in political strategy (47:15).
- Quote: “He translates Niccolo Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ and he gives it as a gift... to Thomas Cromwell.” – Philippa Gregory (47:49)
11. Jane’s Instrumental Role in Anne of Cleves's Annulment
- The episode details how Jane and other Howard-linked ladies orchestrated evidence to allow Anne of Cleves’ marriage to be annulled without personal disgrace—highlighting their cunning and resourcefulness (49:58).
- Gregory and Lipscomb both stress how the testimony of the ladies was almost surely fabricated for survival and dynastic advantage (53:10).
- Quote: “I believe Thomas Cromwell had up his sleeve... a whole set of accusations about witchcraft which would have resulted in a trial of Anne... so I think Jane is instrumental in... constructing the evidence for the inquiry as required.” – Philippa Gregory (51:02)
12. Catherine Howard: Abuse, Youth, and the Regency Dream
- Catherine Howard’s vulnerability and probable history of abuse are compassionately depicted, with Gregory sharply distinguishing her from salacious or dismissive historical accounts (55:59).
- Jane’s encouragement of the relationship between Catherine and Culpepper is reframed—not as scheming for adultery, but as paving an alternative path for Howard regency should Henry die (57:53).
13. On Treason and Tyranny: The Book’s Message
- Gregory closes with a reflection on blind obedience and tyranny—arguing that Jane’s ultimate “treason” is to recognize, however late, the dangers of serving unchecked power (59:47).
- Quote: “You should never give blind obedience. You should always be prepared to think of treason, because otherwise... our safest way out is to oppose them.” – Philippa Gregory (60:12)
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- “Everybody is lying. And it’s very rich, I think, to write a court which is riven with faction... success isn’t just political or financial, but actually also sexual...”
– Philippa Gregory (13:13) - “History is there in the sort of bald facts... but the fiction is in the interpretation of them, in the story, in the meaning and the kind of thinking, the emotions behind them.”
– Suzannah Lipscomb (08:12 paraphrased in question to Gregory) - “Jousting is not just a, you know, canter up and down a measured area. It’s like a sort of car crash, but not car racing. It’s like genuine car crash, just ghastly and, of course, completely... You couldn’t turn away from it, you couldn’t stop looking.”
– Philippa Gregory (32:21) - “I am conscious that every single woman I know is an extremely complex woman and is capable of great acts of generosity and also great acts of vindictive ill behavior.”
– Philippa Gregory (23:02) - “It just happens that [Catherine Howard] falls in love with Thomas Culpepper... And I don’t think Jane encouraged it... But I think once it occurs to her that Henry is increasingly ill and... likely to die, I think she is probably thinking, well, what if Catherine Howard does get pregnant?”
– Philippa Gregory (57:10) - “At the end of it, Jane is convicted of treason because she has helped the Queen have sex with somebody else. But actually she is finally a traitor to the tyranny that she has served all her life.”
– Philippa Gregory (59:47)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 05:06 – Gregory explains her return to Tudor fiction and challenges to conventional female characterization.
- 08:12 – Discussion on the relationship between fiction and historical record.
- 12:08 – Courtly life, masque and disguises as central metaphor for power games.
- 15:02 – Theory on Anne Boleyn’s pregnancies and Henry VIII’s psychological vulnerabilities.
- 19:58 – Henry’s confusion of courtly love and reality; narcissism.
- 22:44 – Nuanced portrayal of Anne Boleyn.
- 26:16 – The significance of Henry’s 1536 jousting accident.
- 32:51 – Sexualized desperation at Anne’s court in 1536 and the stakes of having a son.
- 36:34 – The dubious case against Jane Boleyn and the Victorian origins of her blackened reputation.
- 40:48 – Cromwell’s intervention, Jane’s survival, and sudden prosperity.
- 47:15 – Discovery that Jane’s father, Lord Morley, translated Machiavelli’s “The Prince.”
- 49:58 – The orchestration of Anne of Cleves’ annulment.
- 55:59 – Characterization of Catherine Howard, abuse, and political machinations.
- 59:47 – Reflection on tyranny, treason, and the meaning behind the book title.
Conclusion
This dialogue between two leading voices on the Tudors offers a rich, multi-faceted look at Jane Boleyn, power, gender, and storytelling at Henry VIII’s court. Through nuanced analysis and creative interpretation, Gregory and Lipscomb compellingly resurrect silenced voices and ambiguities in history—reminding us of the dangers of easy historical judgment and the enduring power of imagination.
For fans of Tudor history and historical fiction alike, this episode provides a vivid, critical, and empathetic exploration of one of history’s most maligned women and the complexities of writing their stories.