Not Just the Tudors:

King vs. Emperor – The Battle of Pavia, 1525

Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Professor Glenn Richardson

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the dramatic story and vast consequences of the Battle of Pavia, fought on February 24, 1525—one of Renaissance Europe's critical turning points—pitting King Francis I of France against Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Professor Suzannah Lipscomb and historian Glenn Richardson explore not only the brutal and chaotic clash itself but also unpack the tangled web of dynastic ambition, chivalric ideals, and European politics that drove these two monarchs and shaped early modern Europe. The discussion traces the events leading up to the battle, its aftermath, and its lasting effects on both the French and European landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why the Battle of Pavia Matters

• Pavia's Significance vs. Other Battles ([05:11]–[07:48])
  • Richardson argues Pavia is “more important but less well known” than battles like Lepanto or Mühlberg.
    • “The French don’t particularly want to know about it for obvious reasons… The Spanish… it seems remote… The German lands, nobody really wants to claim it.” – Glenn Richardson [05:34]
  • Compared to Agincourt in scale and impact—“the greatest slaughter of the French nobility on the field since Agincourt.”
• Why it’s forgotten: It fell through the cracks of later national history, its impact being deeply felt but not widely memorialized.

2. Chivalry, Classical Ideals, and Dynastic Claims

• Ambitions of Francis I ([07:48]–[12:49])
  • Both Francis and Charles imbued with ideals of chivalry, Renaissance humanism, and family legacy.
    • “Francis… felt obligated to do the same thing. So, in a sense, that sort of chivalric impetus to secure your inheritance… was very strong.” – Glenn Richardson [10:01]
  • Italy’s wealth and cultural prestige were also major motivators.

3. Were the Italian Wars Inevitable?

([12:49]–[14:46])

• Not inevitable, but “very likely” due to revived interest in Roman Empire, dynastic rivalries, and the strategic allure of Italy.
  • “Once it gets started, though, it’s very hard to get out of.” – Richardson [14:13]

4. Consequences for the Italian States and the Papacy

([14:46]–[18:21])

• The Italian city-states, long divided, were drawn into larger imperial struggles, suffering as the battleground for greater powers.
• The Papacy tried to play balancing roles—sometimes neutral, sometimes backing a side—while furthering its own interests.

5. Francis I and Charles V: Their Relationship

([18:21]–[19:57])

• No personal warmth or deep admiration—unlike Francis and Henry VIII, who had a begrudging respect.
  • “They’re just two very different types of guys.” – Glenn Richardson [19:54]

6. Road to Pavia: Why This City?

([19:57]–[22:51])

• Strategic necessity: After losing Milan in 1521, Francis needed Pavia to re-establish control in Lombardy.
  • “I don’t think Francis is that interested in the city itself, but it has to be got, and that’s why he besieges it.” – Richardson [21:24]

7. The Imperial Plan and the Morning of Battle

([22:51]–[27:34])

• Imperial commanders aimed for a surprise maneuver to capture Francis during the siege, thinking him housed at Mirabello manor.
• The French king declined to withdraw, believing in his own command abilities.

8. Battle Unleashed: Chaos and Catastrophe

([27:34]–[32:53])

• Francis leads a direct cavalry charge, hoping to repeat past victories, but is undone by new tactics:
  • Hidden Spanish harquebusiers (arquebusiers) massacre the French cavalry.
  • The king himself is unhorsed, fights on foot, and is finally captured.
  • Massive losses: “The greatest slaughter of the French nobility… since Agincourt.” – Richardson [30:55]

Notable Quote

• “Francis himself, his horse is killed beneath him, crashes to the ground. He gets up and starts fighting, and he has to fight for some minutes for his own life, eventually sort of saying, I am the king.” – Glenn Richardson [31:55]

9. Aftermath: Sensation Across Europe

([34:16]–[35:38])

• Shockwaves: Henry VIII is overjoyed (“shouts for joy”), others are stunned at the capture of a reigning king.
• Captured with honor, Francis is treated more as a celebrity than a mere prisoner.

10. Captivity and Diplomacy: King in Chains

([35:38]–[42:07])

• Francis is moved through Italian strongholds, then opts for captivity in Spain over Naples.
• Charles V seeks to exploit his victory for lasting peace—demands huge concessions from Francis.
  • Francis agrees, but secretly declares the terms null due to duress.
  • “Signing the treaty with one hand and holding the other hand with his fingers crossed behind his back…” – Richardson [41:24]
• Two sons of Francis (ages 8 and 6) held as hostages.

11. Personal Toll of Royal Hostages

([43:32]–[44:35])

• The trauma of royal child hostages shapes future kings:
  • “We’ve got an eight-year-old and a six-year-old being sent to Spain and they don’t come back until the younger one is eleven… The character of that young… the second who eventually becomes king is defined by this experience.” – Lipscomb [43:52–44:35]

12. Francis’s Freedom, the League of Cognac, and Women’s Diplomacy

([48:09]–[51:14])

• Francis, with counsel from his mother and Cardinal Wolsey, works to build a counter-Habsburg alliance.
  • “Charles has thrown away his best chance… Everybody knows [his terms are] unreasonable.” – Richardson [49:50]
• The Treaty of Cambrai (“Peace of the Ladies,” 1529) is brokered primarily by women: Louise de Savoie and Charles’s aunt, Margaret of Savoy.

13. Legacy: Milan, Burgundy, and the Strategic Chessboard

([51:14]–[54:34])

• The contest for Milan shifts from dynastic to strategic as the region becomes the “centerpiece of Charles’s chessboard,” controlling routes between Spain, Austria, and the Low Countries.

14. The Long View: From Pavia to the Peace of Cateau-Cambrésis

([54:34]–[57:13])

• The struggle for Milan ends in Habsburg victory with the 1559 peace, shaping European power balances for decades.
  • “French begin to accept that the Habsburgs… are just too strong there and is it really worth it anymore?” – Richardson [55:13]
• The irony: Henry II of France dies at a celebratory tournament for the peace, leading into the Wars of Religion and further chaos.

Memorable Quotes

• On the scale of defeat:
  “It was the greatest slaughter of the French nobility on the field of battle since Agincourt.” – Glenn Richardson [05:38]

• On dynastic destiny:
  “To be king of France for him is ontological. It is who he is. He can’t, you know, there’s no way this could be stripped away from him.” – Suzannah Lipscomb [43:32]

• On royal captivity and humanity:
  “Had they been 18 and 22, it might have been different. But no, as you say, they’re really young boys… this is real familial, kind of interrelationship.” – Glenn Richardson [44:46]

• On the battle’s legacy:
  “What started off as… chivalric dynastic… competition… after that defeat… starts to actually become a strategic point.” – Glenn Richardson [51:31]

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |--------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 05:11–07:48 | Why Pavia isn’t a ‘famous’ battle | | 08:10–12:49 | Chivalric and classical motivations | | 13:22–14:46 | Inevitability of the Italian Wars | | 16:43–18:21 | Papal politics and Italian states | | 19:57–22:51 | Why Pavia? Context for the siege | | 23:03–27:34 | The imperial plan to capture Francis | | 27:42–32:53 | Francis leads from the front; battle’s chaos | | 34:16–35:38 | Europe’s reaction to Francis’s capture | | 35:38–42:07 | Prisoner king, diplomatic bargaining, hostages | | 43:32–44:46 | Francis’s sons as hostages and impact | | 48:09–51:14 | The Peace of Cambrai and role of royal women | | 54:34–57:13 | Legacy: Milan’s fate and Europe after Pavia |

Concluding Thoughts

The Battle of Pavia shattered the myth of noble warfare and marked a turning point in European power, forever altering the fates of its principle actors—Francis I and Charles V—and the states over which they fought. The personal, political, and strategic repercussions echo through European history, making it—though often overlooked—a foundational moment in the story of early modern Europe.

For deep dives into these narratives, Professor Richardson’s “Renaissance Monarchs at War” offers extended context and analysis.