Majestic Mughals: From Akbar to Shah Jahan

Summary

Episode Summary: "Majestic Mughals: From Akbar to Shah Jahan"

Not Just the Tudors, hosted by Professor Suzannah Lipscomb, delves into the rich and intricate history of the Mughal Empire in this compelling episode titled "Majestic Mughals: From Akbar to Shah Jahan." Released on December 2, 2024, the episode explores the artistic and cultural zenith of the Mughal dynasty, providing listeners with an immersive journey through one of history's most opulent periods.

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1. The Golden Age of Mughal Art

Professor Lipscomb sets the stage by highlighting the Mughal Empire’s prominence from Emperor Akbar’s accession in 1556 through the reigns of his successors Jahangir and Shah Jahan. She describes this era as a "century of magnificence," emphasizing the stability, wealth, and outward-looking nature of the empire that fostered a "dazzling artistic age." The Mughals' patronage extended across various forms of art, including paintings, jewelry, weaponry, carpets, fabrics, marble work, cabinets, calligraphy, manuscripts, and miniatures.

"These are works of utter beauty and untold expense, examples of expert craftsmanship and superb artistry." ([02:09])

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2. Cultural and Artistic Influences

The episode delves into the Mughal Empire's ability to amalgamate diverse cultural influences, incorporating elements from their Iranian roots, the Hindu traditions of conquered populations, and even Christian biblical stories introduced by Jesuit missionaries. This fusion is evident in the empire’s art, which reflects an inclusive attitude towards different cultures.

"What is so interesting about the artistic culture of the Mughals is the way in which they incorporated multiple influences..." ([02:09])

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3. The V&A Exhibition: The Great Mogul's Art, Architecture and Opulence

Professor Lipscomb interviews Susan Strong, the senior curator of the exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A) in London. Strong elaborates on the exhibition, which showcases a century’s worth of Mughal art, labeled the "golden age." The display includes exquisitely crafted items such as spinels engraved with Persian script, illustrating the empire's artistic sophistication.

"The Great Mogul's Art, Architecture and Opulence is an absolute joy, a must see." ([02:09])

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4. Artistic Techniques and Materials

The discussion highlights the advanced techniques employed in Mughal art, particularly in goldsmithing and textile production. The craftsmen’s skills in setting precious stones and creating intricate inlays are showcased, with the exhibition featuring a film on the lost technique of mother-of-pearl inlay. This craftsmanship underscores the empire’s commitment to artistry and the luxurious materials used, such as gold and fine pigments.

"The techniques are often unique. Metalwork is produced everywhere and again, the techniques are marvelous, but it's often overlooked." ([12:17])

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5. Depictions of Religion and Society

A significant theme in Mughal art is the portrayal of religious coexistence. Akbar’s interest in different religions led to the creation of art that incorporates Hindu, Muslim, and Christian elements. The exhibition features translations of Hindu texts like the Ramayana into Persian and depicts scenes that reflect the empire’s religious tolerance.

"You have Hindu artists producing illustrations to texts from completely different traditions... reflecting contemporary reality." ([16:01])

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6. European Influences and Interactions

While the Mughal Empire was influenced by European art, particularly through Jesuit interactions and the presence of European artists at court, the reverse influence was minimal. European artisans who visited the Mughal court often found it challenging to grasp the empire’s vast wealth and artistic traditions.

"Direct influence from the west to Mughal art, but no reciprocal influence there." ([41:12])

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7. Patrons and Artists

The episode sheds light on the often-anonymous Mughal artists. Despite the presence of named individuals like Mansour and Abu Hasan, much about these artists remains unknown. Strong expresses frustration over the lack of detailed historical records about these craftsmen, highlighting the challenges in fully understanding their contributions.

"We don't know anything about them." ([26:15])

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8. Depiction of Ordinary People vs. Royalty

Mughal art not only depicted royalty but also included portrayals of ordinary people, laborers, and domestic scenes. These depictions offer valuable insights into the daily lives and societal structures of the time, although they were primarily created for royal albums and not for public consumption.

"You have musicians playing outside a very ordinary tent... but these are paintings made for royal albums." ([24:57])

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9. Scale and Preservation of Artworks

The exhibition showcases a range of scales in Mughal art, from tiny manuscripts to large textiles and monumental architecture like the Taj Mahal. The preservation of these artworks varies, with many textiles and large items surviving due to careful maintenance or being kept away from detrimental elements.

"The best way these things are preserved is if they're not looked at." ([36:15])

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10. Decline of Mughal Art Post-Shah Jahan

After Shah Jahan’s reign, the Mughal Empire began to decline due to overextension and administrative challenges. This decline led to a reduction in the empire’s ability to patronize the arts, resulting in the dispersal of artistic styles and a decrease in the empire’s centralized artistic output.

"Wealth, power, and stability were crucial for producing this kind of art." ([41:04])

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11. Reflections and Conclusions

Professor Lipscomb and Susan Strong conclude by reflecting on the legacy of Mughal art, noting its lasting influence and the preservation challenges it faces. The episode emphasizes the importance of understanding the historical and cultural contexts that shaped this artistic golden age.

"The legacy is there, but it's not as rich and the regional courts are not as wealthy." ([40:37])

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Notable Quotes:

• "The character of Akbar was fundamental as a catalyst..." — Susan Strong ([06:55])
• "Wine drinking is fundamental in Persian poetry." — Susan Strong ([11:03])
• "You can't see it because nobody does it anymore." — Dr. Eleanor Yanaga ([14:07])
• "Exact copies were made and then the miniature was given back to Rowe." — Susan Strong ([42:19])

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Conclusion

"Majestic Mughals: From Akbar to Shah Jahan" offers an expansive exploration of the Mughal Empire’s artistic achievements, cultural synthesis, and the socio-political factors that enabled a golden age of art. Through insightful discussions and expert interviews, Professor Lipscomb provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how the Mughals crafted a legacy of unparalleled beauty and sophistication that continues to influence and inspire.

Transcript

[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

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[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb and welcome.

To Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, the podcast in which we explore.

[Susan Strong]

Everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs.

[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

From Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors.

In the late 16th and early 17th centuries, one of the wealthiest courts in the world was that of the Great Moguls. The Mughal empire had been established in 1526, but the period we're thinking about today begins with the accession of the Emperor Akbar 30 years later through the reins of his successors Jahangir and Shah Jahan. This was a century of magnificence. These were the three greatest rulers of the Mughal dynasty and their stable, rich and outward looking empire was perfectly positioned to foster a dazzling artistic age. You'll know something of this already. Shah Jahan was the emperor who ordered the building of the Taj Mahal, but their artistic patronage ranged over paintings, jewelry, weaponry, carpets, fabrics, marble work, cabinets, calligraphy, manuscripts and miniatures, and much else besides. These are works of utter beauty and untold expense, examples of expert craftsmanship and superb artistry. Perhaps the most exquisite example is a spinel, a type of Ballast ruby that is about the size of a conquer and engraved in perfect minute Persian script. What is so interesting about the artistic culture of the Mughals is the way in which they incorporated multiple influences, picking up their Iranian origins, but also from the Hinduism of the people they had conquered, bringing in biblical stories, brought by Jesuits, to repurposing the halo that they had seen in European pictures of the Virgin Mary. The art of the Mughals shows us what can be achieved when you have limitless wealth and power, exquisite taste and a generous and inclusive attitude towards the cultures of others. Until May 2025, the Victoria and Albert Museum in London gathers together some of the finest examples of Mughal art in a new exhibition, the Great Mogul's Art, Architecture and Opulence. It's an absolute joy, a must see. It's been curated by Susan Strong, senior curator in the Asian department at the va, whose many books include Made for Mogul Emperors, the Royal Treasures from Hindustan. And I went to the VA to linger in the exhibition and to interview her. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb and this is not just the Tudors.

[Matt Lewis]

Thank you very much for letting me talk to you about this amazing exhibition. It's a beauty.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Thank you, thank you.

[Susan Strong]

We're very pleased with it.

[Matt Lewis]

So this is art from the reigns of three Mughal emperors, Akbar, Jahangir and Shah Jahan. Could you give us a bit of a reminder about who those emperors were and their position in the world?

[Susan Strong]

Well, they were ruling between 1556 and 1658. And we cover in the exhibition about 100 years of art, which is deemed the golden age. It's when the finest things were being produced. But it's also a period of the creation of a new art, when they.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Were drawing in lots of different influences.

[Susan Strong]

So art obviously did not begin with the Mughals in the Indian subcontinent.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So Hindu and Muslim artists from all.

[Susan Strong]

Over the empire were being drawn into the workshops. But the overriding language of the empire was Persian. And that meant that you had huge influx of Iranian artists, craftsmen, as well.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

As architects, poets, calligraphers and so on.

[Susan Strong]

Coming to work at the court.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So there are very strong links between.

[Susan Strong]

The Mughal Empire and Iran, for a start. And then you have, from the 1580s.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The arrival of Jesuit missions sent from.

[Susan Strong]

Goa at the request of Akbar, who.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Was very interested in different religions.

[Susan Strong]

And these Christian missionaries brought with them Western art, religious art.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So you have another dimension added to.

[Susan Strong]

This newly formed, evolving art under Akbar, linking it to different cultures and traditions across the world.

[Matt Lewis]

And what do you think it was about the situation of the Mughals by the 1580s and thereafter, that made it possible to produce a golden age of art. What are the circumstances that one needs to have for that?

[Susan Strong]

Probably you can overemphasize this, but I do think that the character of Akbar was fundamental as a catalyst, because if you read all the contemporary sources, whether written by his own historian or written by these Christian missionaries who went, you get a picture of someone who's got an absolutely vivid intelligence, acute intelligence, great curiosity about everything from different religions to how things are made, and also a very acute sense of probably the economic well being of the empire. And he obviously they were Muslim rulers ruling over a majority Hindu population. So you have to rule effectively by allowing people to follow their own religions. So that was something which I think facilitated everything that the tolerance, the wealth.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The efficient administration which allowed different arts to flourish.

[Susan Strong]

And he was clearly setting up workshops that were intended to produce things like carpets, which would be as good as those produced in Iran, for instance.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And so there was a level of excellence that was required. He was also extremely hands on.

[Susan Strong]

I mean, the Jesuit missionaries describe him joining in making guns and things like that. So this lively intelligence and curiosity comes through.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But of course, he wasn't the only patron.

[Susan Strong]

So you have a whole society where people are building their own monuments, they're probably commissioning their own jewelers and so on. So that's a picture which is largely lost because obviously the histories concentrate on the emperor, but the royal family, the men and the women, would have been consuming luxury artifacts.

[Matt Lewis]

So let's think a little bit more about that Iranian influence. Do we see that in the themes that are depicted in the art or in the techniques or both?

[Susan Strong]

Both, because you get copies made in the imperial workshop, the house of books of the great literary Persian classics, and then they would be illustrated. You have Iranian masters in charge of some of the workshops. So the founders of Akbar's painting studio, with two Iranian masters, and then later on, under Jahangir and Shah Jahan, you have a continuing influx of Iranians coming to work at court. But the head of the goldsmiths department.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Under Jahangir and Shah Jahan was an Iranian court.

[Susan Strong]

He was a really interesting man who was employed as a goldsmith primarily, but he was also a poet who specialized in composing chronograms, which means that the numerical value of each letter of a phrase, when it added up, gave the date of the verse, which was in celebration of a particular event that happened that year.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So that was his particular skill.

[Susan Strong]

But he also was skilled in engraving very fine Persian inscriptions on objects. And we know that he engraved the titles of Jahangir on a spinel, which is a large rose colored stone in the exhibition. And we know that he engraved it because Jahangir says that in his memoirs.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

From that we identify his calligraphy, which.

[Susan Strong]

Is very beautiful and has its own very distinctive rhythm. And given that in his own specialist skills, we know very likely that he made a jade cup for Jahangir and probably also inscribed the royal titles on one of the Chinese porcelains that was collected by Jahangir.

[Matt Lewis]

So you're giving us a sense already that this is over lots of different types of media. We've got jewels, we've got cups, we've got jade, and we've got pictures. Today, in Muslim work, quite often people aren't depicted and there's a convention of using calligraphy but not depicting the human form. And yet in the Iranian art that is influencing the Mughal conventions, we do see people. Is that something that changes later?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

We have a lot of misconceptions, I.

[Susan Strong]

Think, about Islam in the West. And although you would not depict living beings in very religious settings in Iranian art, throughout time, before Islam and after, you always get figures depicted.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It's not forbidden in any way.

[Susan Strong]

And that carries on, of course, in Mughal art. So, you know, we have lots of misconceptions. I think we've had people say, but.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

There were Muslims, they didn't drink wine.

[Susan Strong]

Well, wine drinking is fundamental in Persian poetry. People at court drank wine and so on. And so you have a whole array of vessels to do with wine banquets and wine drinking, which we have in the exhibition. And for the first time, this Lahore school of metal work is identified and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The verses are all on the metal vessels are all in celebration of wine.

[Matt Lewis]

How wonderful. So in terms of thinking about the range of materials that you've got here, we've also got weaponry and armor. Can you talk a little bit about the way in which these are themselves works of art?

[Susan Strong]

I think if you look at anything that's produced almost across the subcontinent, whether it's metalwork or textiles, if you talk.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To people who know a lot about.

[Susan Strong]

The techniques, they're extraordinary. I mean, the technology is often unique.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So goldsmithing, for instance, the setting of.

[Susan Strong]

Precious stones in gold, is a uniquely Indian technique. Metalwork is produced everywhere and again, the techniques are marvelous, but it's often overlooked.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So I was quite keen to put.

[Susan Strong]

In a lot of big, bold metalwork, but cast in very skillful ways.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

What I wanted to do was to.

[Susan Strong]

Show not just the very heavily Bejeweled.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Pieces, which, of course, are going to.

[Susan Strong]

Be very popular, but also to show the planar metalwork, particularly, and the weapons, because technically they are brilliant and they're very bold shapes. They're often chiseled with little vignettes of elephant fights or things like that, or beautifully overlaid with gold.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So the more utilitarian things are still.

[Susan Strong]

Often very, very beautiful, though plainer, and perhaps not what people would mostly expect.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

To see in the exhibition.

[Susan Strong]

You know, they might expect to see much more heavily bejeweled things.

[Matt Lewis]

And those are certainly there. I mean, we see jade covered with emeralds and rubies and all sorts of wonderful things. I feel like one of the things that you've wanted to capture is that sense of craft and skill. There's an amazing video which shows how you make mother of pearl inlaid tables, for example, which I watched with fascination. Is that an emphasis that you were trying to put on recapturing the skill of these artists?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Very much so.

[Susan Strong]

And that's very VNA as well. I think, you know, that's what the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

V and A has done throughout its history.

[Susan Strong]

But very definitely that was something I wanted to do. And the Mother of Pearl film was wonderful because that was sent to us by the Aga Khan center in Delhi, because the exhibition includes a section on Gujarat regional production focusing on inlaid mother of pearl, exemplified by that fantastic shield.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

From the Bargello, which was in the Medici collection by 1599.

[Susan Strong]

But the technique has been lost for, you know, a few hundred years.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But in Delhi, the Aga Khan center.

[Susan Strong]

Decided that they would try and make a replica of a canopy that had been installed over a shrine in Delhi in the reign of Jahangir, and they would put it in their museum.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But they couldn't find the craftsmen, so.

[Susan Strong]

They had to train them, and they recreated the technique, filmed it all, and then allowed us to use the film in the exhibition.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And I found it absolutely fascinating because I'd never seen it.

[Susan Strong]

You know, you can't see it because nobody does it anymore.

[Matt Lewis]

So that is unique. These craftsmen are unique in their skills.

[Susan Strong]

I think so, yeah. I don't know whether they'll carry on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Making other things, because it must have.

[Susan Strong]

Been an enormous project to find the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Designers, to find the people, to shape.

[Susan Strong]

The mother of pearl, to recreate the technique and fill it with lac, this natural resin that is melted and then smoothed over, and it hardens and it's scraped off.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

It's a very complicated process, but very, very interesting.

[Matt Lewis]

One of the themes that comes out of this exhibition to me, and out at Moorgwa, art is very much this sense of religious coexistence. You mentioned that Akbar was very interested in other religions. And there's a beautiful picture of a Muslim pilgrim learning a lesson in piety from a Brahmin. And I think so much of our idea about Indian history is influenced by later dissent between Hindus and Muslims. How can we see that sense of religious tolerance playing out in the art that's produced here?

[Susan Strong]

I think probably we look at the past through the eyes of. Probably, particularly in this country, through the eyes of the British, perhaps in the 19th century, who would. And seeing different religions in different categories, and that's obviously not the case. I mean, anyone who goes to India sees constant overlaps, and that was very.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Much part of the society at the time.

[Susan Strong]

And so inevitably, it feeds into the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Art that's being produced.

[Susan Strong]

So you have, for instance, Hindu artists. We know that they're Hindus from their names, who are producing illustrations to texts.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

From completely different traditions.

[Susan Strong]

Or they're illustrating Hindu texts, but with.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Figures dressed in contemporary Mughal costume.

[Susan Strong]

You know, they're not of the time, of the text that they're illustrating. So it's a very hybrid society which is reflected in the art.

[Matt Lewis]

And Akbar's interest means that you've got these beautiful translations of Hindu texts like the Ramayana into Persian, which you include here. Can you tell me a bit about those?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Well, that's part of the desire to.

[Susan Strong]

Make sure that people respected and understood each other's religions on the part of Akbar. And so he set up religious debates so that people could explore other paths of religion, but also contentious points within a specific religion.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And the Jesuits were invited to those.

[Susan Strong]

And seemed to have behaved appallingly because they had absolutely no interest in other religions at all and no understanding of them, and went in and made the most terrible comments. And I think they were treated with a certain degree of amusement. And then they just became a bit of a nuisance because their intention was that they hoped to convert the emperor to Christianity. And of course, that was never going to happen, and they just made a nuisance of themselves. So they were slightly pushed to one side, but they were still of interest.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Because they could explain the tenets of their own faith.

[Susan Strong]

So that was something that happened throughout. And Jahangir continued religious debates as well.

[Matt Lewis]

And if we're thinking about influences, how much do we see European influences? We see them in pictures, we see the depiction of Europeans, but is there a kind of lively discourse between the techniques of art as well?

[Susan Strong]

It's difficult to say, I mean, Djangir, certainly there was an English mission, I.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Think, that had a Portuguese painter with.

[Susan Strong]

Them, and the Portuguese painter must have sat down with Jahangir's artists and you.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Assume that there was some sort of.

[Susan Strong]

Discussion between them, but definitely there was.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

A discussion between people practicing different arts. So you had, for instance, a French.

[Susan Strong]

Jeweler who went to the court and designed a throne for Jahangir.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And it's impossible to think that he.

[Susan Strong]

Wouldn'T have been sitting watching Jahangir's goldsmiths and having some sort of discussion about that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Shah Jahan had a Dutch diamond cutter.

[Susan Strong]

In his household, but obviously most stones were cut according to Indian fashion. In terms of direct influence from European art. The artists were copying directly but then recreate, you know, using that as a.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Source of inspiration and a departure point. And a lot of the significance of.

[Susan Strong]

It'S probably lost now. So you have exact copies of European.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Engravings in the margins of one of.

[Susan Strong]

Jahangir's albums, but it's combined in the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Margins with very intimate scenes of the.

[Susan Strong]

Household with women sitting playing with children and women musicians and so on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Why the two are together is impossible now to know.

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[Susan Strong]

What a difference.

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[Matt Lewis]

There's a sense of integration though, isn't there? That Mughal art is going to draw on everything. It's going to take in biblical stories, it's going to take in the Ramayana, it's going to take in influences from Iran and sort of soak them all.

[Susan Strong]

Up or use them to express different notions.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So for instance, you've got the halo.

[Susan Strong]

Is adopted from European art, but it means it's the sort of the light that emanates from the emperor and you have the putty in the sky showering gold or whatever hovering above the emperor. But they're all used to express ideas that are already there, that they're not adopting the Western concept that goes with them.

[Matt Lewis]

I love that idea of taking something and completely refiguring it, giving it a different conceptual framework. Can I ask you also about ordinary people? Because quite a lot of the time here we're looking at elite art, very costly art. We should talk about that in a second. But I'm also struck by the fact that especially in some of the earlier pictures in the exhibition from Akbar's time, we can see laborers and masons and gardeners, even women carrying things on their head, as you see in India today. Exactly. It was an extraordinary moment of time collapsing when I saw that. And that's interesting that we don't just see members of the Royal Family, although. And this may be skewed by whatever was available to borrow for the exhibition. But does that change over time? Do we see more inclusion of ordinary people earlier perhaps in this century or.

[Susan Strong]

I don't know. It's a difficult question actually. You certainly see them heavily represented in the Advent. I mean, they're not realistic paintings by any means, but they do reflect contemporary reality as you saw in the. The scene of the construction of the fort. You do see scenes of the encampment, paintings done in the reign of Shah Jahan, and also Jahangir, where you see musicians playing outside a very ordinary tent. But then these are paintings made for royal albums. So you know, it's not.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

They're not made for ordinary people.

[Susan Strong]

And I suppose that's inevitable, that precious things are more carefully preserved, things that are made for ordinary people wear out.

[Matt Lewis]

Is it perhaps that there's an increasing focus on the portrait of the royal face, the royal image?

[Susan Strong]

It's certainly true that in the reign of Shah Jahan there's a different projection of the emperor. I mean, there's a very self conscious desire clearly to project an image which is very particular and very edited and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The art becomes very unified in its.

[Susan Strong]

Style in a way that hadn't happened before. So I think that that's certainly true.

[Matt Lewis]

One of the wonderful things here is that you seem to know the names of the artists. What do we know about those who are creating this art?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Almost nothing.

[Susan Strong]

It's so frustrating because you've got names written on paintings. Jahangir's art leading artist that he names very unusually in his memoirs, Aman so and Abu Hasan. But very often he'll say, I called the painters to do a picture.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And you only know, for instance, in.

[Susan Strong]

The case of the famous portrait of the zebra in the va. Johangir's memoir.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Describes the arrival of this exotic animal.

[Susan Strong]

And says I call the painter to depict it and doesn't mention his name. But written on the VA painting by Jahangir in that very spidery writing, it.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Says, this is a portrait of a.

[Susan Strong]

Zebra brought by the name of the person and painted by Mansour. But we know virtually nothing about him.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Saida is a rare exception because some.

[Susan Strong]

Of his biography has been recreated, but other people are just mentioned and lost.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Completely lost in the midst of time.

[Susan Strong]

So we don't know anything about them.

[Matt Lewis]

Just their names and sometimes not that.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And family relationships, you often know. So Abu Hassan's father was an Iranian.

[Susan Strong]

Artist who was working for Jahangir as a prince when he rebelled against his father. So we know that also in that circle were at least two women artists, which is extremely rare and their works are extremely rare. But again, we know that they were.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of noble birth because they've got titles.

[Susan Strong]

But we don't know anything at all about them.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But occasionally the inscription will say, this.

[Susan Strong]

Is so and so the son of whatever artist or the brother of. But that's as much as, you know.

[Matt Lewis]

Some of these pictures give us exclusive access. They allow us to see inside the women's quarters, which seems amazing in the context of them being so heavily guarded at the time.

[Susan Strong]

It does. It's a paradox, because it's as if.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

You'Re flying over the walls and seeing them and you can see the levels of security.

[Susan Strong]

You can see the eunuchs on the outer gates and then the women inside, and you can see how they are very private. And yet at the same time, there you are seeing, you know, a baby in its cot next to the mother who's just given birth.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Extraordinary pictures.

[Matt Lewis]

Do you think that we should consider these to be imaginary rather than portraits of the women?

[Susan Strong]

It's a good question. I honestly don't know. I think the only portraits are such that I think we can be confident about are the ones that were in an album done for Shah Jahan's son, Dara Shukur. And the British Library curators there suggested that two of the portraits are of his wife and sister. And it's very convincing because they're unusual in the way that the jewelry and also their clothing is depicted very precisely, in a way that you don't see in other paintings of women. At the same time, you know, their jewelry is very generic, it's just dotted with pearls. But these jewelry forms are very specific, so I think in that case, they probably are real portraits, but it's difficult to be sure about anybody else.

[Matt Lewis]

We're much more secure when it comes to the men in being certain that we're looking at portraits. Who do we have portraits of and what does the depiction of those people tell us?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Obviously, you have depictions of the members.

[Susan Strong]

Of the royal family, the male members. You have depictions of people who were deemed of interest, particularly in Jahangir's reign.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So anyone who came to the court who was interesting would be painted by the artist.

[Susan Strong]

So it might be a regional landowner, it might be a musician who's come from the Deccan, just someone who's arriving and Jahangir wants to have the portrait painted. And then you see this phenomenon, which I think carries on in Shah Jahan's.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Reign, where these Standard portraits are then.

[Susan Strong]

Copied into depictions of court assemblies. If you look at the gathering in a court assembly, sometimes the relative scale.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Of different figures looks slightly peculiar, and.

[Susan Strong]

It'S because they're copied from these model portraits and then put together like a patchwork.

[Matt Lewis]

Oh, that's really interesting. That is. I did notice that and I couldn't understand it at all.

[Susan Strong]

It looks very awkward, doesn't it, when you first see them?

[Matt Lewis]

And so we have depictions of Ethiopians.

[Susan Strong]

And Turkish ambassadors and the Iranian ambassador. Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

When someone arrives, it's important to capture that. Can we talk a bit about the cost of these things? Because I was really struck by the wealth on display. When you see something like the hunting coat that's here, which is silk, satin embroidered in silk, one thinks if you're going hunting, you put on clothes that could get dirty, but no, we're putting on something gorgeous. Is that also represented in all of the different media that you have here? How costly were these items to produce?

[Susan Strong]

It's difficult to know who with some of them, I mean, manuscripts, you would expect, would be the amount of time it takes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And also the materials are very expensive.

[Susan Strong]

You would imagine that the valuations would be very high, but scholars who've done research on that can say, you know, they're graded in terms of value, but the valuations are actually quite small.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Whereas the value of a precious stone, which Ihangir gives evaluation of everything when.

[Susan Strong]

He mentions it, apart from manuscripts, but.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He'Ll say the value of a precious.

[Susan Strong]

Stone, it might be the equivalent to.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The cost of a mansion.

[Susan Strong]

So it depends, I suppose, if you've got something which depends on labour costs, it might not be so expensive, unless.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The building materials are very expensive.

[Susan Strong]

But the jewels were certainly extraordinarily expensive.

[Matt Lewis]

Right. So people come cheap.

[Susan Strong]

Well, I suppose, but I don't think that means that the people producing them at court were impoverished, because certainly some of them we have the old reference to someone in a mansion in Agra who is an elite craftsman or artist. Whereas in the bazaar, I'm sure that the people making things were very cool.

[Eva Longoria]

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[Matt Lewis]

And in terms of the range of colors that we see in these manuscripts and the sort of materials that they're made from, are they drawing on stones and pigments from a whole range of backgrounds?

[Susan Strong]

They are.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And there's a lot of gold.

[Susan Strong]

I mean, particularly in these royal manuscripts, the gold is used, and it's quite a complicated process to make the gold to apply to the pages.

[Matt Lewis]

One other thing that really struck me is that working on this period for Europe, it is unusual to have fabrics. It's unusual to have things like carpets and canopies and hunting coats. We have extraordinary textile survival, it seems, from the Mughal court. What can we learn from that?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Well, we do have some extraordinary survivals, but in general, we don't have a.

[Susan Strong]

Lot that survived from this period, which.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Was one of the difficulties of doing the exhibition.

[Susan Strong]

We have more carpets, but they tend not to be necessarily in great state of preservation. But textiles are very susceptible to insect damage, particularly, so you don't get very.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Much from the period of Akbar.

[Susan Strong]

And the pictorial carpet that we have in the exhibition, Unknown from Boston, is.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

I think, unique in its style.

[Susan Strong]

Carpets are produced in greater quantity.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Sorry, have survived in greater quantity from.

[Susan Strong]

The next from Shah Jahan's reign, and.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Textiles from his reign have been better preserved. But it's really the 18th and 19th.

[Susan Strong]

Century when you get massive amounts of textiles, but they haven't survived very much. So to have the hunting coat is remarkable and to have these carpets is remarkable. Especially the Ilchester carpet, which is so well preserved and so large and really vibrantly colored.

[Matt Lewis]

That's what struck me. I mean, if you look at tapestries from this period so often they're faded now, and these are brilliantly colored.

[Susan Strong]

We don't know anything about the early history of it, but I suspect it must have left India more or less just after it was made, because if it had stayed, it would have got faded, it would have been insect damaged and so on.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

This looks as if it's been very carefully looked after for a long time and kept away from the light.

[Matt Lewis]

Isn't that ironic that the best way these things are preserved is if they're not looked at?

[Susan Strong]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Lewis]

I mentioned scale earlier. We seem to have a real range of different sizes, particularly when it comes to the manuscripts and to the paintings. And some of these are tiny and operating on such a kind of miniature scale that defies sort of belief. Can you tell me a little bit about the different scales that we see here?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Well, I suppose the scale of objects.

[Susan Strong]

In the exhibition does go from tiny. You know, you've got the precious stones that are so beautifully cut. And if you have, as a curator.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The privilege of holding these things, you can understand why when you see paintings of the empress holding a tray of.

[Susan Strong]

Jewels, why they're so fascinating, because you.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Turn them round in the light and.

[Susan Strong]

They look different from every angle. And the cutting exploits the qualities of the stone.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Then you have massive textiles because, of course, the palaces had large spaces to fill them. In terms of the art of the.

[Susan Strong]

Book, it's interesting that the early paintings, the Hans and armor pages, are so big. And there was a theory that they were held up. These were tales which were originally oral.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Tales, so they were performed, and then.

[Susan Strong]

Akbar ordered them to be written down. And there was a theory that the individual pages were held up and the.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Person performed the tales, which I think.

[Susan Strong]

Has been discarded as a theory. Now. They were definitely bound volumes.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Why they were so large, I'm not sure. The support for them is very unusual.

[Susan Strong]

As well, because they're painted on cotton, but backed with paper on which the text is written. And then later on, size of the manuscripts, as you say, is much smaller and the detail much smaller.

[Matt Lewis]

And so we see change over time.

[Susan Strong]

Well, then they get bigger again. You know, the Pachana, the history of.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Shah Jahan's reign is relatively.

[Susan Strong]

The paintings are relatively large again. So, I don't know.

[Matt Lewis]

You include a film and works on that great, exquisite building with Taj Mahal. And is this a way in which the art that we have seen up until this point is made into marble, into stone, into Jaws?

[Susan Strong]

I think it marks a change, actually, because it. I mean, it was obviously the product of a great tragedy in the life of the emperor. But you get the impression that before his accession, because he rebelled against his father for many years, you have a sense that he had a very clear idea of the image that he wanted to project when he became emperor. And whether that was woven into the design of the Taj Mahal, I don't know. But by the time it was completed, with all these beautifully carved Marble walls with flowering plants on them. There was a very distinctive style that had been created and that then spreads across the arts and projects. This idea of, you know, his reign as the Garden of Paradise.

[Matt Lewis]

The Exhibition spans about 100 years. What happens after 1658? What happens after Shah Jahan? And do we see a decline in the nature of Mughal art?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Well, Shah Jahan was deposed by his.

[Susan Strong]

Son Alam, who took the title Alam Gir and didn't die until 1666. I think Arlangir extended the empire and overextended it because he wanted to defeat the Deccan sultanates, which he did. But then the empire was just unmanageable.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

The walls took so long, they drained.

[Susan Strong]

The imperial treasuries, lit the empire, really, because to rule he was in the Deccan, which is so far from the northern territories, the northern provinces.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

So the empire gradually fell apart and.

[Susan Strong]

Then there was a series of much inferior rulers. And so throughout the 18th century, it's a period of decline, but in artistic terms, the style established by Shah Jahan carries on and gets recreated in different provinces, because what happened was central power.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Disappeared, although the Mughal emperor survived as.

[Susan Strong]

A figurehead, but power spread to the regions. You had independent courts setting up, particularly in the 19th century, the Sikh court of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

And so you have artists being dispersed.

[Susan Strong]

Across the former Mughal provinces. But there's still this looking back to the golden age of Shah Jahan and people producing things directly copying the style of Shah Jahan, but obviously in much.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Inferior materials and in regional styles.

[Susan Strong]

The legacy is there, but it's not as rich and the regional courts are not as wealthy.

[Matt Lewis]

So wealth, power and stability were crucial for producing this kind of art.

[Susan Strong]

Yeah.

[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

So we see in this exhibition lots.

[Matt Lewis]

Of evidence that the Mughals are being influenced by European art and adopting what's best of it. Do we see the influence going back the other way?

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Not particularly, because.

[Susan Strong]

Not at this period, because I don't think there were enough, particularly English people going to the Mughal empire and surviving and being able to come back and tell their stories. So you have, for instance, Thomas Rowe went, but clearly he and the company hadn't realized that the wealth of the Mughal Empire. So he was constantly running out of presents.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

He didn't understand the culture of the.

[Susan Strong]

Court, where to gain access you had to give presents.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

But he did take a carriage with.

[Susan Strong]

Him to present to the emperor, and the emperor took it, and then it reappeared some time later with all the fabrics inside stripped out and replaced with Chinese silk, because it was more expensive and more beautiful and he constantly is running out of presence to the degree that he has to go through his.

[Dr. Eleanor Yanaga]

Own possessions and give things. And the one thing that he wouldn't part with was an Isaac Oliver miniature.

[Susan Strong]

Which Jahangir greatly admired, but Rowe agreed to lend it to the emperor so that his artist could copy it. And again, the artist isn't actually named, so it's very frustrating, but exact copies were made and then the miniature was given back to Rowe. So again, direct influence from the west to Mogul art, but no reciprocal influence there.

[Matt Lewis]

Well, thank you so much for giving us an overview of art during this amazing center century. And the exhibition is beautiful and well worth people's time. Thank you for curating it.

[Susan Strong]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History hit. Also thanks to my researcher Alice Smith and my producer Rob Weinberg. If you enjoyed this episode, then I think you'll be fascinated by an episode titled A Tudor Mystery, the Girl who Could Be Queen, in which Emma Rutherford and Dr. Elizabeth Goldring set out to solve the 400-year-old mystery of a previously unknown portrait of a young woman dressed to look just like Queen Elizabeth herself. Another Tudor mystery we unraveled was in the episode titled who Painted Anne Dudley? And we devoted episodes to Elizabeth I's favorite painter, Nicholas Hilliard, and several to the mighty Hans Holbein. Do check them out. The links are in the show Notes for this episode Episode we're always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line at Not Just the [e-mail] or on X formerly Twitter at Not Just Tutors. Remember, you can also listen to all of these podcasts on YouTube and watch hundreds of documentaries when you [e-mail] subscribe it's well worth it. And if you be so good as to follow Not Just the Tudors on.

[Matt Lewis]

Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Professor Susanna Lipscomb]

You'Ll get each new episode as soon as it's released.

[Susan Strong]

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[Susan Strong]

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