Not Just the Tudors – Marlowe & Shakespeare: Rivals or Collaborators?

Podcast: Not Just the Tudors by History Hit
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Liz Duffy Adams (award-winning playwright; author of Born with Teeth)
Air Date: September 25, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Professor Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by playwright Liz Duffy Adams to explore the dynamic relationship between Christopher Marlowe and William Shakespeare—two towering figures of the Elizabethan stage. Prompted by modern scholarship suggesting their collaboration on the Henry VI plays, this discussion delves into Adams’ creative process behind her new play Born with Teeth (RSC, 2025), the blurred boundaries between history and imagination, the perils and politics of Elizabethan theatre, and notions of artistic identity and survival. Through vibrant dialogue, Adams and Lipscomb discuss espionage, censorship, sexuality, meritocracy, and the enduring power of live theatre.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Play and Historical Collaboration

• Modern Scholarship as Spark: Adams was inspired by a news article claiming computational evidence of Marlowe and Shakespeare’s collaboration on Henry VI, propelling her to imagine these two minds together.
  • “I had a very vivid sense of them as very different people... as soon as the idea came up of them collaborating.” —Liz Duffy Adams (05:59)
• Imaginative License: The play features “Will” and “Kit” rather than strictly historic representations, exploring their imagined personalities and dynamic.
  • “It's not William Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe, it's my Will and Kit... it has to be right. It's an imagination. It's a speculation, necessarily...” —Liz Duffy Adams (06:54)

2. Creative Imagination vs. Historical Fact

• Research and Playwriting: Adams draws on extensive research (notably Charles Nicholl’s The Reckoning) and admits to a “crow-like” mind—collecting historical fragments, but ultimately prioritizing dramatic vitality over scholarly fidelity.
  • “My goal is always for nothing in the play to be impossible, however improbable, whatever liberties are taken, that it is grounded in the facts to begin with. But at a certain point you have to just throw it out the window and let the thing live.” —Liz Duffy Adams (08:42)

3. Marlowe’s Espionage and the 'Grubbiness' of Spying

• Glamour vs. Reality: Marlowe’s association with Elizabeth I's secret service was “grubby,” involving betrayal, not romantic adventure.
  • “It wasn't James Bond. Right. It was seduction and betrayal... Not a savory aspect to Marla's character when you look into it.” —Liz Duffy Adams (11:52)
• Double-Edged Protection: Proximity to power makes one visible and disposable.
  • “That very protection is what will turn and cut your head off... the proximity to power feels like it's going to protect you. And it's a very dangerous place to be.” —Liz Duffy Adams (13:36)

4. Writing, Subversion, and Censorship

• Inherently Political Writing: All plays—wittingly or not—are political acts in their portrayal of power and society.
  • “Every play is a political play in that it is about how we humans live in the world, how we organize ourselves... there's this great quote that the poet Jericho Brown said. Every love poem is political. Every political poem must fall in love.” —Liz Duffy Adams (15:14)
• Obliqueness as Self-Preservation: Playwrights navigated censorship by setting plays in distant pasts and “obliquely” reflecting on contemporary issues—mirroring Perseus’ use of the shield to face Medusa.
  • “You don't go right at the monster. You have a reflection that you work with. And I think that's what a lot of them were doing. And I think that's what Shakespeare was so brilliant at.” —Liz Duffy Adams (19:15)
• Life and Death Stakes for Playwrights: Real historical examples, such as Thomas Kyd’s destruction by torture, underscore the risks of public creativity and speech.
  • “He came under suspicion, he was brought in, he was tortured, they let him go. He never wrote another play. And he died, I think, about a year later. He was destroyed. Nobody was safe.” —Liz Duffy Adams (20:48)

5. Religion, Sexuality & The Façade of Identity

• Religious and Sexual Ambiguities: The play and period collapsed different kinds of non-conformity (atheism, Catholicism, sexuality) into treason.
  • “Atheism, Catholicism, any other non conformist... was pretty much lumped together... and all of it was treasonous.” —Liz Duffy Adams (22:06)
• Queerness and Artistic Persona: Adams discusses the fluidity of sexual identity in the period and how Will and Kit’s ambiguous relationship reflects both espionage and genuine attraction.
  • “With Shakespeare, there's a sense of this omnipresent attraction and emotional capacity that feels unboundaried. And of course, as we know, the concept of gay straight, completely anachronistic. It wasn't a point of identity.” —Liz Duffy Adams (29:00)

6. Theatre as Self-Expression and Escape

• Artistic Immortality: Risks and creative leaps were necessary for both personal fulfillment and artistic immortality. The theatre offered a rare path for social mobility and authenticity.
  • “If you are so afraid to reveal yourself, then you cannot live fully... you can't reach your potential as an artist. You won't achieve the glory that is everything to Kit—the immortality of the artist.” —Liz Duffy Adams (31:24)
• Fellowship and Danger: The sense of community in theatre was both a refuge and a crucible against the omnipresent violence and instability of Tudor England.

7. Authorship Controversies & Meritocracy

• Shakespeare Authorship Theories: Adams dismisses conspiracy theories as rooted in elitism and misunderstanding of artistic process.
  • “I think they're, with all due respect... they're nonsensical. I do think they're rooted in snobbery... a misunderstanding... of the kind of education that Shakespeare would have had.” —Liz Duffy Adams (35:55)
• Genius vs. Class Barriers: Both Marlowe and Shakespeare, sons of artisans, exemplify rare meritocratic ascent in a rigidly hierarchical society.
  • “The fact that the word playwright is spelled W, R I G H T, as in something that is wrought... There is an artisan element to making plays... not just sheer poetry.” —Liz Duffy Adams (38:39)

8. Mutual Influence

• Marlowe’s Impact on Shakespeare: Marlowe’s innovations in blank verse and dramatic form profoundly influenced Shakespeare, especially in early works and themes.
  • “Marlowe was already a star playwright when Shakespeare got to London... Shakespeare was directly influenced by that. Then Shakespeare took it the next great leap forward.” —Liz Duffy Adams (40:40)

9. Modern Resonance

• Art Under Authoritarianism: Born with Teeth is “about how do artists survive and... make work under totalitarian regimes,” inspired by the plight of contemporary artists under repression.
  • “What happens to their work under totalitarian regimes, under authoritarian regimes?... I can't write a play if I don't know why this play now, and that's what it's rooted in.” —Liz Duffy Adams (41:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“You give yourself away with every line. Maybe you do. No one is studying me.”
— Liz Duffy Adams (as Marlowe and Shakespeare, via play excerpt, 23:41)

“Obliqueness is a literary virtue, she says, demonstrating it.”
— Professor Suzannah Lipscomb (43:30)

"If you are so afraid to reveal yourself, you cannot live fully and... won't achieve the glory that is everything to Kit—the immortality of the artist."
— Liz Duffy Adams (31:24)

“I think they're... rooted in snobbery. I think it's a misunderstanding, for one thing, of the kind of education that Shakespeare would have had...”
— Liz Duffy Adams (35:55)

“There is an artisan element to making plays. It's not just sheer poetry.”
— Liz Duffy Adams (38:39)

Important Timestamps

• 05:12 – Adams on being drawn to dramatize the alleged collaboration
• 08:42 – Balancing creative imagination with historical authenticity
• 11:52 – Reality of Marlowe’s espionage
• 13:36 – The perils of proximity to power for Marlowe
• 15:14 – Making the case for all plays as political acts
• 19:15 – Shakespeare’s oblique strategies for evading censorship
• 22:06 – Elizabethan conflation of religious and sexual nonconformity
• 29:00 – Early modern sexual fluidity and its expression in the play
• 31:24 – Art as existential risk and pathway to immortality
• 35:55 – Rebuttal of alternative Shakespeare authorship theories
• 38:39 – Marlowe and Shakespeare as artisan geniuses and social risers
• 40:40 – Marlowe’s influence on Shakespeare
• 41:54 – Contemporary relevance: art under authoritarian regimes
• 43:30 – Adams' own oblique autobiography in her play

Conclusion

This episode is an incisive and engaging conversation on the intersections of history, identity, politics, and creativity in the Elizabethan theatre, with Born with Teeth serving as both lens and mirror. Liz Duffy Adams and Professor Lipscomb offer rich insight into two literary giants, the dangerous vibrance of their times, and the timeless dilemmas of making art in fraught contexts.

Recommended for listeners interested in:

• Shakespeare and Marlowe scholarship
• Historical drama and creative process
• Censorship, identity, and the politics of art
• Elizabethan history and theatre

For further listening:

• Not Just the Tudors episodes featuring Charles Nicholl on Marlowe, or Professor Emma Smith on Dr Faustus (see 44:56–51:04 for excerpt)