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- [01:02]
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C Details online Black Friday at Abercrombie is here with 25 to 50% off everything and iHeart listeners are getting an extra 15% off with code iHEARTAF. It's a sale you've been waiting for, made even better with an exclusive stackable code shop Abercrombie in the app online and in stores. 25 to 50% off everything valid in stores and online November 24 to December 1, 2025 in US and Canada. Excludes clearance and gift cards online. Price reflects discount. Use code IHEARTAF to get an additional 15 off everything in stores and online at checkout November 24 to December 1, 2025 in US excludes clearance and gift cards. See details online.
- [01:41]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Margaret Beaufort was a remarkable woman. Although born as the daughter of a duke and the descendant of one king, Edward iii, and eventually the mother of another, Henry vii, her prospects were by no means guaranteed. In an arresting line, one of my guests today sums up the calamities of Margaret's existence in terms that cut across time. Born into a century of conflict and deprived of her father while she lay in her crib, she was married at 12, widowed and in labour at 13, her only child born into a plague stricken war zone. Yet even though she was an orphan, a widow and a mother by the age of 13, in such an age of political turmoil, Margaret proved resilient enough to ride out the vicissitudes of the wars of the Roses. Through two further marriages, decades of danger and uncertainty, and despite only seeing her son a handful of times before he reached adulthood, she succeeded in guiding him to the throne of England as the first monarch of the Tudor dynasty. She also helped bring about his marriage to Elizabeth of York, a union that helped heal the wounds of a bitterly divided kingdom. What sort of woman can she have been? As we'll learn today, Margaret displayed extraordinary courage, shrewdness, political astuteness and sheer persistence. But she may not have been unusual among noble women at the time who struggled to safeguard themselves and their families against the ever shifting sands of time. To talk about Margaret Beaufort, I am joined by not one, but two of her biographers. My first guest is Lauren Johnson. Lauren has previously written books about the accession of Henry VIII and the life and death of Henry vi. And her latest book, Margaret Survivor, Rebel, Kingmaker, is a new biography of the matriarch of the Tudor dynasty. She's going to take us through Margaret's Life up until 1485. Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
- [04:12]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
It's lovely to be here.
- [04:14]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Your book and our story starts with the Beaufort family prayer book. Now, the fact that there was a family prayer book at all signals immediately that we're dealing with a family of wealth and status. But, but what else does it tell us and what else should we know about the family?
- [04:31]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
What I find really revealing about this prayer book is that it comes down through a maternal line. So this is the prayer book that Margaret's mother, Margaret Beauchamp, had and held in her hands. And it is a really astonishing testament to the things that mattered to Margaret and her family because we have these month by month calendars of saints days, basically. And then in the margins of these, we have little handwritten notes, often by Margaret herself, which note days of birth, for instance, of her grandchildren, arrivals later in life, very important sort of high status arrivals, like the arrival of Catherine of Aragon, battles, things like that. But what I found really compelling about the day, which records Margaret's date of birth, is we have her date of birth, literally a couple of lines apart from the death of her father, which happened before she was even one year old. And it just struck me when I was looking at this book that she could never have lost sight of that fact, that her birth, her father's death, fortune's wheel constantly turning within their family. It made sense to me immediately why she in later life was quite famed for a fairly pessimistic outlook, as it's described by her confessor, John Fisher.
- [05:46]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Yes, isn't that interesting? So her father, who was he?
- [05:50]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
Her father is John Beaufort, the first Duke of Somerset in that line, and he is a quite fascinating individual, fights in the Hundred Years War, is taken prisoner in his teeth schemes, and remains a prisoner of war for the longest period of time of any Englishman. And when he returns to England eventually, after many years, he's been supplanted by his younger brother, Edmund Beaufort. He can't get a high status wife, he marries a woman who is another widow with lots of children, not very high born, and the only way he can ultimately see to get any status at all is to go back and fight in France again. During which he has a completely disastrous military campaign, returns in disgrace, and there are even rumours that he's going to be tried as a traitor, banished from court and dies by suicide as a result of that. These are things that Margaret must have heard as she was growing up. But luckily she had an extremely powerful mother to take as an example.
- [06:52]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Yes. So she loses her father at a very young age and I'd like to talk about the effect that that death had on her life, but also she's not even that old when she leaves her mother. So we've also got the example that her mother sets. What effect do her parents have on her?
- [07:11]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
The legacy of her father is quite problematic for Margaret. I find it really tragically ironic that some of the items that we know Margaret held onto for the rest of her life were things that had been owned by her father, including a great big tapestry that's all about military victories, which you think, God, when you have a father who dies in military disgrace, that's quite a potent thing to have on your walls to be looking at. We know that Margaret's mother protects her own family at all costs. We know that she has multiple husbands, as Margaret herself goes on to many children from the different marriages, which is quite different from Margaret's own experience. And that with each of those children, Margaret's mother really fights in every way at her disposal as a landholder. And that Margaret grew up watching her mother. Because even though Margaret is a ward of court from the time her father dies, which means she can be handed over to someone else at the King's will, Margaret's mother holds onto her. In fact, she had it written into a clause of the deal by which Margaret's father went away to war, that Margaret's mother would keep hold of her even if her father died. And that continues to happen even when Margaret is betrothed at about six or seven, to the son of one of the highest ranking men in the kingdom, the Duke of Suffolk. Even then, Margaret continues to live with her mother. And it's actually only when there is a kind of legal imperative, when Margaret is 12 years old, which is the age of consent for girls in her time to marry, it's only then that Margaret is handed over into the care of someone else. And unfortunately, Margaret is put into an arranged marriage with Edmund Tudor, a man who is at least twice her age and who impregnates her quite swiftly. So a man who really, I think, is more concerned for what he can get out of this marriage than he is for her comfort or safety.
- [09:00]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
And this isn't her first exposure to marriage, even she narrowly avoids becoming Margaret de la Pole. So what had happened there and then? Why was this new marriage thought desirable and by whom?
- [09:14]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
Yeah, this is the tricky thing with Margaret and I think the element of her that suggests that she was always concerned to have a voice in her own life. So we know that there was an initial marriage to the son of the Duke of Suffolk. It was a marriage that was almost a betrothal, and it falls by the wayside because very shortly after Margaret is betrothed or married to this child, effectively, the Duke of Suffolk himself completely falls from power and ends up being assassinated. And what's interesting is that when it becomes time for the King to assert his will in Margaret's marriage, a few years later, when he suggests, oh, I think you should marry my half brother, Edmund Tudor, the Tudors being from a second marriage of Henry VI's mother. At that point, we have it on record that Margaret said, okay, you want to change who I'm marrying? I am going to need a bit of time to think about that, actually, before I give my consent to it, which is astonishing when we think we're dealing with someone who's about 9 years old at this point. And according to later reports, Margaret spent the night in prayer, had a vision of St Nicholas, the patron saint of children, and that saint told her, you should marry Edmund Tudor, this is the path you should take. And of course, that ultimately produces her only child. Whether this is Margaret having retrospectively made sense of what must have been quite an overwhelming, later, even traumatizing experience, what is clear in this story is that Margaret asserted her voice and her choice in who to marry.
- [10:51]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Yes, that's amazing. It's fascinating. So that's 14:53, and the time for the wedding comes round as she gets to the age of 12 in 1455. The political situation has rather changed in the intervals interim. Could you bring us up to date?
- [11:07]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
Oh, it's just the little matter of the hundred years. No, it's not the Hundred Years War. It's Hundred Years War being lost and then the wars of the Roses starting. Nothing big going on at all. So, as it regards Margaret, it's quite fascinating, to be honest, because I think again, it has been lost a bit that she is connected to some very high ranking families. Her Beaufort kin are among the leading figures of Henry VI's court, but they are quite staunchly Lancastrian figures. So her uncle, Edmund Beaufort, is one of the Countess counsellors of the Queen. He's one of the leading advisors, a sort of father figure to the King at this point. And unfortunately he has made a fairly major political misstep in losing France and thereby really angering Richard, Duke of York, who is Henry VI's heir in waiting. He is the closest male relative and I think that York expects that he should have power over government, that he should have the chief voice in affairs, and is very angry that Somerset instead has it. And because of this discord with York, the unhappiness with the Duke of Somerset, I think that Henry VI is almost trying to assert maybe an alternative line of succession with Margaret Beaufort and her husband, Edmund Tudor, a very Lancastrian line. Because we have this connection to the Beauforts, we have the connection to the Tudors, who are quite stalwart Lancastrians. And I think probably that Henry VI is a lot happier with the possibility that they might have a child who will have this slightly distant royal claim than he is with the Yorkists asserting their claim. So I think that Margaret's fate is very tied into those political machinations. And in 1455, when she actually gets married, by coincidence, it is almost exactly at the time that the first Battle of the wars of the Roses occurs, in which Edmund Beaufort is killed.
- [13:00]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
And the fact, as we've established, that the marriage was consummated so early was unusual, although the age of consent for girls was 12 it wasn't usual, was it, to have the marriage acted on in that way?
- [13:15]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
No, it wasn't usual. People wouldn't start a sexual relationship until much later because these are huge investments for the nobility. It makes perfect sense. If you've paid enormous amounts of money for a bride, you don't want them dying in childbirth the first time out. You want them to be able to have several children. You want them to develop a strong relationship with the person they're married to. I think sometimes we have a kind of a slightly grim, almost victimizing notion of women in this era. And actually we have to remember that even with someone like Margaret, who's 12 years old, she has people around her who are trying to protect her. And I think one of the tragedies of Margaret's circumstance when she gets married is that she's taken away from those people, and to the best of our knowledge, she is kept away from them until after she has had her child and then lost Edmund and remarried later on.
- [14:09]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
So what evidence do we have that the birth damaged her? And if that is the case, can we think about what the legacy of that might have been, how it might have related to her early relationship with her son?
- [14:21]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
It's one of the, like really frustrating things with Margaret Beaufort is that in terms of detail of her childbirth, we don't have it. What we can glean from some of Margaret's own later behaviors and expressed opinions is that it was a deeply traumatic period of her life. And the context of what happens just after she's had her child suggests to me that almost it was so traumatizing she wanted to escape it. And that runs completely counter to, I think, our prevailing notion of Margaret and her son. I think there's often this presentation that she had her child and immediately that was it. She was a mother first and foremost, and she was always looking out for him. And actually, what we have is a child whose husband has died because Edmund Tudor dies of plague at this point, who is living hundreds of miles from her half siblings, her mother, who is in a country where she doesn't speak the language because she's in Wales at this point. And within two months of giving birth to Henry, she leaves him at Pembroke Castle, as far as we can tell, and goes and arranges another marriage that takes her right back to her own family in Lincolnshire. Admittedly, there's a political element to this. She marries someone who is part of a family of powerful mediators in the wars of the Roses. But I do think the fact that she is able through this marriage, to return to her family is hugely important because she's still only 13 years old. She doesn't seem to have continued to have much relationship with Henry, as far as we can tell. She passes him over to the guardianship of first his uncle, Jasper Tudor, and later William Herbert, another Welsh lord, which is just very different from how Margaret herself was treated. Both Margaret and her son, Henry Tudor are great heirs to big estates whose fathers are dead. And yet Margaret is kept with her mother and protected by her mother, like through real exerted effort on the part of her mother. And on the other hand, Henry is almost just left, as far as I can tell. And the next time that we know that Margaret returns to Wales is 10 years later. Now, it's quite possible there's communications happening in the interim, but it really doesn't seem she's this tiger mum figure just looking out for his protection. I think she is absolutely just trying to almost ignore the fact that he is still a feature of her life. It's really notable to me that she doesn't seem to start rebuilding their relationship until much later on.
- [16:52]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
So what do we know about Margaret's new marriage and the nature of that relationship?
- [16:56]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
She marries a man who I call Sir Harry Stafford. He's also known as Sir Henry Stafford, but there's too many Henrys and Harry Stafford is again, probably quite a bit older than Margaret. And I think probably the prevailing impression has been that this was again a bit of a marriage forced on her or that they didn't really love each other. And I would say the evidence of the household accounts that they keep together during their marriage and of his two wills that he writes later profoundly suggest the opposite to me. They suggest that Margaret and Harry had a really quite touching companionate relationship, that he respected her, her as someone who could run his lands and look after the servants and oversee all of the business that comes with estate administration at this time, which is basically like being the manager of a company. And that later, when they do start to rebuild this relationship with Henry, that he also invests in that relationship too. So in 1467, Margaret and Harry go to visit Henry at Raglan Castle. It's one of several journeys that Margaret makes with her husband. And I get the distinct impression that it's a happy marriage, but the big challenge of it is that there are no children. And I think I came to the conclusion that she did hope for children with Harry and that she was actually quite disappointed when it didn't happen because we get this 10 year lull in relations with her son. And then mid-1460s into the time she meets him in 1467, she starts to include him in various different family religious orders and things like that, and send him gifts and send him servants with information. And it just all smacked to me of someone who couldn't deal with the reality of motherhood, then was hoping for it and then realised that Henry might be her only child. And I think that was turning point for her that maybe sometimes has been missed in her story.
- [18:57]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
So the wars of the Roses, obviously are ongoing at this time. Can we talk about what this means for Margaret's own actions in these years?
- [19:06]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
Yes. Margaret, who is remembered as the Lancastrian, this arch Henry VI lover, is anything but in this period and actually for quite a while afterwards, I think she is at first inclined to be very cautious. We know that members of her family do fight for the Lancastrian cause, some are even killed as a result of it. But she witnesses what happens to the families of those who fight for Henry and don't make peace with the new regime under Edward IV of York. And I think she has a few voices in her ear in the early months of Edward IV's reign, the chief voices being her mother, Margaret Beauchamp, and her mother in law, Harry Stafford's mother and Duchess of Buckingham, both of whom make peace with Edward quite swiftly for different reasons. They are in disadvantaged positions when Edward takes the throne as people who are associated with Lancastrians, and Margaret and Harry Stafford do the same, like in Edward IV's first parliament. Margaret and Harry Stafford both have their estates protected as part of having made a deal with Edward. Interestingly, as part of this, Margaret does not remotely seem to have tried to get control of her son again, which suggests to me that at this point she's maybe not quite so interested in having control of him. Several years pass. She seems to have made a good accommodation with the new regime. She manages to increase her standing within it. Her and Harry Stafford moved to the south of England, much closer to the court. They're able to go up to London frequently. By 1468, they've reached the point that Edward IV actually pays them a personal visit, which, you know, there's flurries of entries in the household accounts about that, about the great big eel he's going to be served and what she's going to wear. And then Margaret really makes some quite disastrous political missteps, because we have this extremely muddy period in the wars of the roses from 1469 through to 71, when there's a back and forth between Edward IV and his various different adversaries, which include members of Margaret's extended family in Lincolnshire, and which also affects Henry Tudor, because Henry Tudor has been placed in the care of one of Edward IV's leading counsellors and soldiers, really, William Herbert. William Herbert is killed after a battle at Edgecot in 1469. And then Henry's disappears for a little while and no one quite knows what's happened to him, where he's gone. And we can again trace Margaret's really quite frenzied search for her son, to find out what happened to him through her accounts. And maybe partly because of the alarm of that or the uncertainty around Edward, but Margaret starts to maneuver into a position where she is allying herself with the forces against Edward iv, to the extent that when Edward is driven out of the kingdom and the Lancastrian Henry VI is very surprisingly restored to the throne as this kind of shambling bearded figure who's dragged out of the Tower of London effectively to be king. Margaret and Harry Stafford are immediately on the scene and ready to go and meet him and introduce Henry Tudor to him. Unfortunately, turns out that Edward IV has not just given up, he comes back to England, he mounts an enormous army and defence against the Lancastrians completely defeats them and very understandably is not all that keen on Margaret and her husband when he comes back to power.
- [22:40]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Yes. So his return is pretty decisive for Margaret's family, both for her son, actually, and for her husband. So what happens?
- [22:48]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
She is very definitely involved in the kind of political negotiations that are going on around the scenes. We know that, for instance, she's in touch with Cecily Neville, the mother of Edward iv, and George, Duke of Clarence, who at this time is in opposition to him for some of the period and appears to be trying to negotiate through Cecily with Clarence to determine Henry Tudor's future, effectively. We also know that her cousin, who is fighting in the Lancastrian army at this point, comes to her house on a couple of occasions, and that she maintains contact with him as he is going on his journey to fight Edward iv. And it's only really relatively late in the day when Edward IV takes London, that Margaret and Harry Stafford clearly think, we just need to try and pull out all the stops on this. It's clear Edward is going to win. And Harry Stafford is dispatched up to join the army of Edward IV as a kind of proof, proof of their loyalty to the new regime, which ends fairly badly for him as he's wounded in battle. It doesn't unfortunately do enough to counter Edward's suspicions against them. And I think, particularly if Margaret and Henry Tudor had met Henry VI and got a prophecy that maybe one day this young man would be the next King of England, then one can completely understand why Edward would be suspicious of the entire family and why at the point that Edward returns, although Margaret's trying to court Edward iv, she also advises her son and Jasper Tudor to go into exile rather than risk themselves by staying in the country.
- [24:28]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
So this is a period of loss. I mean, she doesn't know her son, so his exile is not particularly a loss for her. But those wounds that Harry sustained lead to his death. And yet. And the response is unusual in that she remarries pretty darn quickly. So who is her, where are we now? Fourth husband? And what did this marriage bring her?
- [24:52]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
The person that Margaret marries as her fourth husband is Thomas Stanley, a fairly recently widowed Lord of the north west of England, Lancashire and Cheshire. A man from a really enormous family, it must be said. He has a number of children of his own, as well as lots of siblings with power in that area. And crucially, I think for Margaret, he has his own almost independent authority in that area. He's powerful enough that he has been able to push the King's brother, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, out of his territories to stop him interfering there. He's powerful enough as well that in pretty much every major event of the wars of the Roses, he's just sat on the sidelines and refused to commit himself, and yet everyone still likes him. And therefore, for Margaret, he just makes the ideal partner because he can offer her security. And also she's in a position where she probably needs a husband because her siblings aren't really able to help her. She is a widow. We know of several other instances of widows and wives of one time Lancastrians who find themselves being effectively mistreated by the ruling regime, having their estates taken from them, or being being placed under house arrest with their servants limited and sometimes not even able to support themselves financially. So I think she's very conscious of the potential dangers if she doesn't marry. And with Thomas Stanley, she doesn't just go into this relationship like, I've got no power, he's a man, I'm just gonna do whatever he says. We have quite extensive paperwork for their union that suggests that she knows exactly how much she is worth socially and financially, and that she doesn't see herself as marrying. If anything, he's the one who's getting the benefit of this situation and it marks a whole new phase of her life up in the northwest of England, with sporadic visits back down to the south, about which, very frustratingly, we have extremely little information.
- [26:53]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
One of the only things that you've gleaned from this period is that she sort of has become part of the orchest establishment and that she continues to hope for her son to receive the ardom of. Of Richmond. Let's think about that and how much those plans were thwarted when, in 1483, Edward IV died.
- [27:14]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
We've got quite a lot of information, actually, about her attempts to get Henry back, particularly around 1482. Also, reading across some of the sources for this era, we can get a sense from them that as much as Margaret is quite happy through Thomas Stanley, who is steward of Edward IV's household, to be absorbed into the Yorkist court throughout this era, because at this point, it seems the Yorkist dynasty are here to stay. Edward IV is going to be king forever. There is absolutely no point in trying to countenance any alternative future. But Margaret seems still to be quite suspicious of Edward IV for a long time, so she appears to have advised Henry not to come to terms with him. In the mid-1470s, she seems to have warned that if you come back without quite concrete promises of support, that doesn't mean anything, like you're risking your life. And it's only in around 1482, when her and Edward IV make a deal, effectively in the wake of the death of Margaret's mother, that would see Henry Tudor gain the estates of Margaret's mother if he returned to England in the King's good graces. That is the kind of the crucial point, really, because we have that definite document that is witnessed at the time by Edward and Margaret in Westminster, where they make this deal for Henry's return. We have a document in Westminster archives that appears to suggest that there are preparations being made for Henry to be restored to the Earldom of Richmond. And we also have some later commentary by various people about the possible marriage of Henry and Elizabeth of York, which stretch back to this time and suggest that Margaret and Edward are being heard talking about their kinship, which is relevant because if they're related, then that has implications for how their children could marry. So reading across all of these different documents, I feel like by about 1482, Margaret is convinced that she and Edward IV have come to an arrangement. Part of that arrangement will be that Henry Tudor marries probably Elizabeth of York, Edward IV's eldest son, child and eldest daughter, and that through those arrangements, she has put in place she thinks it is now safe for Henry to return. Unfortunately, he is still quite suspicious and doesn't come back. And then disaster befalls everyone, not least Edward iv, because he very suddenly and.
- [29:44]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Unexpectedly dies and his son Edward V becomes king. But before he's crowned, his uncle Richard seizes the throne on the claim that the princes in the Tower, as they are by this point, are illegitimate and that he's the rightful king. How much was Margaret involved in her husband's activities when Richard III took power?
- [30:10]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
This is another of those completely tantalizing moments in time where I almost feel that there is a kind of collusion of silence around some of the early Tudor writers, that they almost don't want to say too much about. Margare. She is referenced at one point as being the head of that conspiracy, that she is clearly implicated in certain activities that are going on. It's quite tricky because the official version of events, as far as the Stanleys and later writers are concerned, is that Thomas Stanley is known to be opposed to Richard and that is dangerous to him. So dangerous, in fact, that at a council meeting where Richard has William Lord Hastings dragged off and summarily executed, he also arrests and possibly even wounds Thomas Stanley. The strange thing is, though, that if that happened, Thomas Stanley is back at council meetings with Richard about a week later, two weeks later, him and Margaret are having discussions with Richard about some old estates in France of hers. So if Thomas Stanley ever was in real danger, he seems to come back into Richard's good graces with astonishing speed. But it does suggest to me that maybe some of those stories about how much of a resister Thomas Stanley was to Richard have been a little bit embellished after the fact. The one thing that does appear to be correct, though, is that Margaret herself has an issue with this situation. I think she is willing to come to terms with Richard III's regime if need be. But there is no denying that he is a far worse option for her than Edward V would have been and certainly than Edward IV was, because she's put in place all of these arrangements for Henry's return, which now are completely null and void. Henry isn't going to want them. He doesn't want to be married to a princess who's hiding out in sanctuary at this point and who may be considered illegitimate. So Richard III's accession is a real challenge to Margaret and her long term plans for Henry's future. And we have these very veiled references to a number of rebellions and conspiracies that are happening very soon after Richard's accession, which involve a number of Edward IV's old household and Edward V's household as well, and which come to involve Jasper Tudor and Henry Tudor. And you can't help but think, why are they being implicated in what is otherwise a pretty clearly like royal household conspiracy? What have they got to do with any of this? It is very hard to see anyone arguing for their inclus except for Margaret Beaufort at this point in time that she would suggest that they could act as lynchpins for the kind of Lancastrian cohort who are still operating in Europe at this time. So it seems very likely that right from the earliest days of Richard, Margaret is effectively conspiring against him.
- [33:04]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Thank you Lauren. Let's leave it there for the moment, but I do want to come back to you at the end of the episode. I'll be taking up the next phase of Margaret Beaufort's life, life as mother to King Henry VII in a moment with Dr. Nicola Tallis.
- [33:29]
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- [33:59]
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- [34:29]
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- [34:59]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
So by the autumn of 1483, it seems that Margaret Belford was seriously considering the possibility that her son, Henry Tudor, might be a serious alternative to King Richard iii. There are various groups who are angry with the King, but they don't have anyone to lead them. It's Margaret who forges the connection between those different factions to unify them behind Henry Tudor. The households of Edward IV and Edward V are willing to consider him him and the Lancastrians are also happy because he has a Lancastrian blood claim to the throne. So under Henry, all these disparate factions are able to coalesce into one rival rebellious group. And then, crucially, it's Margaret who pays for them to be able to get an army together. I want to now take up the next phase of Margaret Beaufort's life as mother to King Henry VII with Dr. Nicola Tallis, who's author of Uncrowned Queen the Fateful Life of Margaret Beaufort, Tudor matriarch. So, Nicola, welcome to not just the Tudors.
- [35:59]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Thank you.
- [36:01]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
And We've arrived in 1485. It's August. Henry Tudor has just landed at Milford Haven. Where is his mother now and what does she know about his attempt?
- [36:12]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
It's possible that she was in London, it's possible that she was on one of her husband Lord Stanley's estates in the north. But we do know that there were regular messengers keeping her informed of what was going on with Henry.
- [36:26]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
And it's amazing, isn't it, that it is the Stanleys who are so pivotal. Thomas Stanley, Earl of Derby, her husband. And the crucial move at Bosworth is made by his younger brother William, but only after a two hour period of observation from the sidelines. What do you read into this?
- [36:45]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
I think it's very typical of the Stanleys in terms of how we see them behave during the wars of the Roses, where they do tend to sit back, watch, wait, see how events are going to unfold before committing themselves to either side. And I think we also have to remember that at this time, Richard III was actually keeping Thomas Stanley's son a hostage because he was so worried about Thomas Stanley's loyalties in the run up to Bosworth as well. We can't judge the Stanleys too harshly because Thomas Stanley has his son to think about. But we do know that again, Thomas Stanley was in contact with Henry prior to Bosworth. So I think that it is likely that he had given Henry some kind of assurance of support in some way, shape or form. But I think that it's quite interesting that it is his brother, William Stanley, that actually commits himself to Henry on.
- [37:45]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
The battlefield and in so doing turns the tide against the reigning monarch, Richard iii. And of course, he is defeated and Henry Tudor becomes King. His mother, what do we know of her reaction, their reunion and his coronation?
- [38:04]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
We do know that Margaret and Henry are reunited soon after Bosworth, because Henry makes a beeline for Margaret's palace at Woking to go and visit her. And they spend a couple of weeks there really getting to know one another again. And I think that is quite telling of Henry's attitude towards his mother as well. So he recognized that Margaret had been steadfastly, devotedly loyal to him and had done her utmost to try and support him. I think that must have been quite an emotional reunion for the two of them. And then when Henry is crowned, Margaret, we know that she's quite emotional at this point, because the outcome of the Battle of Bosworth was something that neither Margaret nor Henry could ever have anticipated. I think what we have to remember at this time is that Henry Tudor had never fought a battle before, so the odds appeared to be very much stacked in Richard's favour. So suddenly, this whole future that neither Henry nor Margaret could ever really have envisioned as a possibility had transpired into a reality. And Margaret was determined to be there to celebrate her son's success and to witness every moment of his triumph.
- [39:21]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
And what did his accession mean for her personally?
- [39:25]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Well, this was a huge turning point in Margaret's life, because in the first Parliament of Henry's reign, Margaret is declared a fem soul or a soul person, which gives her full and sole control over her estates, which means that she now has the power to act independently of her husband. And this is a huge change for Margaret. We don't quite know how Lord Stanley felt about her being created a fem soul, but given that it was the King's will, there wasn't a lot for him there to contest. But it's huge move towards independence for Margaret and it's one that I think was very much instigated by her. She had all of her lands and all of her property confiscated from her in the previous reign by Richard iii. So now the fact that Henry was prepared to allow his mother this important status, I think is a way of him thanking her for all of the support that she'd shown him. And we also see her immediately take the title of my lady, the King's mother. So she is very much identifying herself with Henry and she's very Keen to carve out a role for herself in the brand new Tudor regime, her legal.
- [40:45]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Status is now that of a single woman. And in practice, although she remains married, this becomes true too. Can you explain this conundrum?
- [40:54]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Yes. So Margaret does decide to take a vow of chastity, which signifies independence from her husband, Lord Stanley, in another respect, to all intents and purposes, although they remain married, they are effectively friends, business partners, and they do remain on good terms. They do continue to work together. They host a visit from the King and Queen and at one of Lord Stanley's northern estates. So I think that this decision to make a vow of chastity is nothing more than a formality in some respects on Margaret's part. But I do think that all of her marriages really were considered by her to be a business arrangement and were founded on practicality rather than personal feelings. So I think actually the fact that Henry VII had now become King was just something that formally allowed her to do this and to separate from her husband. And Lord Stanley seems to have been supportive of this and more than happy to allow her to do this. Because he had children already from a first marriage, there was no need for him to procreate with Margaret too. So this seems to have been done with his blessing.
- [42:14]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Now she's the King's mother, but she's not the only woman at the helm. What do we know of her relationship with Henry's new wife, Elizabeth of York, and with the other Queen mother, Elizabeth Woodville?
- [42:29]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
The relationship with Elizabeth Woodville is again one of those areas that we have frustratingly little evidence for. And it's tempting to think that they would have clashed because they were both, both strong women, they both had big personalities, but we have to remember that they had worked together prior to Henry becoming King. So they had worked together to displace Richard III and to formulate this marriage between Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York. So I think that they were both fairly pragmatic women who knew when to set aside personal feelings to work towards a common purpose. But we don't really know how they got along together personally. But with Elizabeth of York, Margaret's daughter in law, we do have a little bit more information. And I think that this is perhaps where one of the slurs on Margaret's character comes into play, because there has been this idea that has been circulated through popular culture in recent years that Margaret would was effectively the mother in law from hell. And I think that couldn't be further from the truth. The evidence for this comes from one source, which is made by the Spanish ambassador in 1498. And he remarks upon the fact that Elizabeth of York was basically in subjection to Margaret, that Margaret was the main power force at court, and that Elizabeth of York didn't like this at all. And we have to remember that this ambassador was just recording a snapshot in time one moment. And actually all of the other evidence that we have suggests that Margaret and Elizabeth of York got along rather well together. So we know that they founded a chantry chapel together. We know that later on they worked to ensure that Elizabeth's eldest daughter, Princess Margaret, wasn't sent to Scotland for her marriage to James IV forth too early. And Margaret had her own experience to draw on for that. So they were really working hard to try and ensure that Margaret was kept safe for as long as possible. Margaret the Younger, and I think also Elizabeth of York, seems to have been gentler in nature than either Elizabeth Woodville or Margaret Beaufort. So perhaps Margaret found her easier to control, if you like. But they do seem to have got along relatively harmoniously for the most part.
- [45:08]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Now, one amazing set of sources that we have for her are her accounts, which survive from 1489 to 1509.
- [45:17]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Yes.
- [45:17]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
What can we learn from them?
- [45:20]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
We see in their everything from the purchase of jewels from goldsmiths all across the country to rewards that were given to messengers. We see that a reward was given to a poor woman who presented Margaret with a cake when she came to visit Cambridge. And speaking of Cambridge, there are so many references in Margaret's accounts to Christ's College in particular, which Margaret founded in 1505. And we see that she took such a strong interest in this foundation and was lavishing an awful lot of money on building it. So I think that we are very lucky that thanks to Margaret's own diligence, we do have these accounts and that they do help to make someone that could have perhaps otherwise been two dimensional into someone very colourful and very real.
- [46:18]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Another type of source is accounts written by people like Henry Parker and John Fisher. And they give us a sense of your book suggests of Margaret's household, what it was like, her daily rhythms. What do they tell us about that?
- [46:30]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Oh, yes. So revealing. And they do paint a picture of a woman who was very warm and very generous to those that she knew. But again, that is supported by what we see in her accounts, for example, as well.
- [46:43]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
That's really interesting and interesting there because it feels so often that we can't really get at Margaret's voice much of the time. We are required to conjecture, we have a tiny glimpse of her relationship with her son once he's king. What else do we know about that?
- [46:58]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
There are very few surviving letters from Margaret to her son. The ones that we do have, it is very clear that Henry was the real love of Margaret's life. And that's my genuine belief, is that I'm not sure if Margaret ever experienced true love on a romantic level, but I do think that she did with her son, and I think that's really important. And we see in those small glimpses in her surviving letters that she refers to him in such endearing terms, things like my dear and sweet son. It's very clear that she adored him. And I think that what's very interesting about that relationship is the level of trust and respect that Henry has for Margaret in turn. And it's again, been something that we've seen in popular culture recently that Margaret has been depicted as this very overbearing mother. But actually, if we step back and think about this logically, as you mentioned earlier, Margaret had been separated from Henry prior to Bosworth for almost 15 years. And even before that, she hadn't really been given the opportunity to raise him herself. So I think the fact that she wanted to spend so much time with him is understandable, given the amount of time they'd been forced to be parted from one another. And she would not have been there, she would not have been so close to him if Henry had not wanted her to be. And we see that even in some of the royal palaces, there are special galleries that are made, special passageways to interconnect their chambers. So we see this at the Tower and also at Woodstock. So this really suggests a really strong closeness between the two, that they wanted to spend time together in private as well as in public. And later on, we also see Margaret moves away from the court, she moves to Northamptonshire and her residence at Colley Weston. And here she basically assumes a role in government because she becomes Henry's unofficial lieutenant in the Midlands. And again, this is something that she would not have been able to do without Henry's consent. So I think it's very clear that Henry adores his mother on many levels, but he also recognizes that she's a woman of great ability and someone who he can really trust to conduct business on his behalf, too.
- [49:43]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Yes, I think that word trust is crucial. He's trusting her to conduct business, to dispense justice on his behalf. This is an unusual thing, isn't it, at the time?
- [49:52]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Yes, it's hugely unusual. It's really an indication of Henry's belief in his mother's abilities. And also, Henry had lived a life of uncertainty prior to Bosworth. He hadn't known where his future lay, but he did know that the person who would be prepared to risk everything for him and the person who he could really rely on was his mother. And I think that is reflected when he becomes king. I think Margaret is very much the person that he can speak to about business matters, who he can speak to about personal matters, and he really does trust her judgment because he does recognize that she's risked everything for him.
- [50:51]
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- [51:21]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [51:52]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
You've hinted at her piety. Can you give me a bit more of a sense of the outworking of that piety? What did it mean? You know, even what can we read into things like the dedication of books to her, for example?
- [52:05]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
So we do see things like books that are being dedicated to Margaret, but we also see numerous glimpses of her piety throughout her accounts as well. So we see that she's paying for her masses to be read and performed in her lifetime, both for her and for other members of her family. We see that she is sponsoring and giving money to priests and various religious institutions. We also see on one occasion that she pays the debts of a priest who's in jail, and she also pays for the education of the children of her chapel at Collyweston. So there are numerous indications of her piety spread through every area of her life. And it is something that really is a crucial part of her identity and becomes even more important to her once she becomes the king's mother because she now has the wealth and the position to be able to really enhance and spread that message of piety throughout her network.
- [53:16]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Given that she's so wealthy and that she's paying off other people's debts, what do you make of this decision of hers at the age of 57, to travel to Calais to pursue a debt that has been owed to her family since before her birth? What does this tell us about her?
- [53:33]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
It tells us a lot about her determination as an individual. And in some respects, although Margaret could be very generous, I think we mustn't lose sight of the fact that this was a real person as well, who could be ruthless. And particularly when it came to money, Margaret was often very determined to ensure that where there was money owed, it was always reclaimed. She was never really prepared to let a debt lie. And I think the fact that she did go to such great lengths, this debt had been owed for some time, and the fact that she was prepared to travel as far as Calais at what in the 16th century would have been considered to be polite, a senior age, I think, does tell us a lot about her determination to ensure that she received what was due to her. So I think it tells us a lot about her character in many respects. She wasn't somebody who was prepared to just brush it under the carpet and write it off. She was somebody who wanted to make sure that every penny owed to her was returned. So it's a very interesting moment in Margaret's life, I think, and it shows also, I think, that she was very aware of affairs and she knew what was going on, where her finances were concerned. We see this in her accounts as well, where she signs pretty much every page. So she's clearly somebody who is keeping an eye on things and is determined to ensure that she's received what's due to her.
- [55:17]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
How the rich stay rich. It also shows an amazing attention to detail. But let us be fair and also now immediately point to the fact that she does patronize educational institutions very generously in these years as well, doesn't she?
- [55:32]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Yes, she does. And I think education was something that seems to have always interested her, but she had never really been given the opportunity in her own youth to indulge that and to learn to the level that she would have liked. So we know that she really regretted the fact that she hadn't been able to learn Latin. So I think that this newfound position of hers as the King's mother does really give her the opportunity to indulge that for the benefit of others. And what a legacy. People are still benefiting from that today.
- [56:09]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
They are indeed. In Henry's last years, what role did his mother play?
- [56:17]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
She largely played the role of supporter, particularly after the death of Elizabeth of York in 1503, which saw Henry VII's surviving children motherless. In the summer of 1503, Margaret's eldest granddaughter and namesake, Margaret, does journey to Scotland to marry James iv. Grandmother Margaret Beaufort accompanies her part of the way and hosts a lavish celebration for Margaret at Collyweston before bidding her farewell. And then, from then on, we have Henry, of course, the future Henry viii and Mary. Mary Tudor. And Margaret, to all intents and purposes, appears to have been the carer in many respects, but also the advisor who was on hand to support Henry and really also, I think, perhaps to play some hand in schooling and priming his heir, the future Henry viii. I think that Margaret did have a role in shaping Henry for sure, and.
- [57:29]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Then from 1507, her son Henry was quite unwell and she sort of rushes in to offer care there as well.
- [57:39]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
Yes, she does. And it's easy to forget sometimes, I think also that there was just 13 years between mother and son is a very small age gap. And I think that frailty that Henry begins to display must have been incredibly worrying for Margaret, because we've spoken about the fact that he is really the love of her life. She's done everything to protect him, she's done everything to support him and to keep him safe. And so I think that this was a very worrying time for Margaret, as Henry's help begins to decline. But I think that also she was probably astute enough to recognise that time is running out for Henry. So she is worried as a mother. But I think that there's also a more practical part of her who is perhaps priming and thinking about what comes next. On a political level, too, Henry dies.
- [58:38]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
When he's only 52, and as she say, she's 65. She's left behind to arrange his funeral, but she herself does not have long to live. I was really struck by Reginald Paul's assertion, which you mention in your book, that the last thing that ever she saw was God. When did she die? And what can we make of her final days and indeed her posthumous reputation?
- [59:06]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
It's very interesting because, as you mentioned, Henry VII, he dies in April in 1509, and it's almost as if Margaret sees her own life coming to a close soon after as well, because she watches as her grandson, Henry VIII marries Catherine of Aragon in June and Then the couple are crowned in Westminster Abbey, and Margaret attends that coronation. She watches. But very shortly afterwards, she retires to the abbot's house in Westminster Abbey. And by now her own health is very badly in decline. Henry VIII turns 18 on 28 June. And it's almost as if at this moment, Margaret thinks, my work here is done. I've seen my grandson succeed to the throne. He's now 18. And she dies the following day at the age of 66. And it is a time when her friend Bishop Fisher, her confessor, also says that all England had cause of weeping at her death. And she is laid to rest in the Lady Chapel at Westminster Abbey, where we can still see her tomb. And I think that is a really important part of her legacy, actually. I think the fact that she is buried in Westminster Abbey, in the Lady Chapel of her son's creation, is a really important part of her legacy and her identity. And it's only really been in recent years that Margaret's reputation has really come into question and that she's really been afforded more notice as well, I think, because for many years she's been overlooked, footnoted, recognized solely in respect of her relationship to her son as Henry VII's mother. And recently this has begun to change. But I have to say that's not. Not altogether good news for Margaret, because I was speaking to somebody else, Dr. Michael Jones, who wrote a study of Margaret back in the 1990s, and he remarked upon the fact that when he was researching and writing about Margaret, her association with the princes in the Tower, for example, it wasn't relevant, it wasn't a part of the conversation. Whereas now Margaret seems to provoke a lot of hostility when her name is mentioned, and a lot of that is because she is now considered to be a suspect in the disappearance of the princes in the Tower. Unfairly, I think, but for that reason, people do now have stronger feelings about her in either a positive or a negative sense. So she is certainly starting to be talked about with greater frequency, and a lot of people seem to have opinions about her. But I just think that it's very important to remember that this was a woman who was by no means perfect. She had the same flaws and imperfections as everybody has. She was human. But this was a woman who had also risked everything for her son and to who family mattered a great deal. And I think that there's. Everybody can identify with that, really.
- [62:48]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Dr. Nicola Tallis, thank you. I've just got time to return to Lauren Johnson for a final word about Margaret Beaufort. Lauren, I want to ask you to conclude we think of Margaret as this exceptional character and she certainly was remarkable. But to what extent was she unusual among the women of her time?
- [63:10]
Lauren Johnson (Biographer)
I think for so much of Margaret's history, for the past 500 years, really, she has been held up almost as a bit of an aberration from the norm as this kind of woman in a man's world. And I think actually she only makes sense when we see her in combination and connection to the women around her. There are myriad examples from this period of history of women who are forced really through the circumstances of war and exile and imprisonment and loss of estates to take on a far more authoritative role in their families, who really become the leaders of their families. And many of those people are connected to Margaret, her mother in law, the Duchess of Buckingham, her friend, the Duchess of York, her own mother, the Duchess of Somerset, and many other women as well throughout all different layers of society who are defending their own families at a time of complete uncertainty. And Margaret Beaufort fits into that lineage perfectly. It's just that she manages to do it in such a successful way that she really becomes the great survivor of the wars of the Roses.
- [64:15]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
Thank you so much to Lauren Johnson and Dr. Nicola Tallis for this fascinating look into the mother of all Tudors, Margaret Beaufort. Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. And to my producer, Rob Weinberg. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and.
- [64:43]
Abercrombie Advertiser/Podcast Host
I look forward to joining you again.
- [64:45]
Podcast Host (Susannah Lipscomb)
For another episode next time on Not Just the Tutors from History Hit.
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Podcast Sponsor Announcer
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