Not Just the Tudors – "Plantagenet vs. Tudor: Who Was the Rightful King?"

Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Matt Lewis (co-host of Gone Medieval)
Date: March 23, 2026

Overview:

In this episode, Professor Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by historian Matt Lewis to dissect the fraught question: Was Henry VII truly the rightful king of England? They explore the relative legitimacy of opposing dynastic claims at the tumultuous end of the Wars of the Roses, considering Henry VII’s wafer-thin hereditary claim, the fate of legitimate Yorkist heirs, and the shadowy stories of the ‘princes in the Tower’ and various pretenders. The conversation navigates tangled bloodlines, European politics, and the evolution of royal legitimacy, bringing insight and nuance (plus a few Ricardian sympathies) to a period when “rightful king” was anything but a simple concept.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Henry VII’s Claim: Blood, Battle, or Both?

• Henry Tudor’s ascent: Henry claimed the throne by right of conquest after Richard III was killed at Bosworth (22 August 1485), but his blood claim was weak—descended from the Beaufort line (originally illegitimate, later legitimized but legally barred from succession).
  • “His title rested less on ancient inheritance than on the sharp edge of a sword and the loyalty of men who had gambled everything on his victory.” (03:33, Lipscomb)
• Matt’s Ricardian stance:
  • “Richard III in 1485 for me, definitely rightful King of England. … Richard’s failure allowed Henry to sneak in there.” (05:59, Lewis)
• Henry’s coalition:
  • Successful not because of Lancastrian heritage but by rallying disaffected Yorkists—especially with the promise to marry Elizabeth of York, Edward IV’s daughter, thus uniting claims. (08:09, Lewis)
  • “What Henry has managed to do is gather around him all of those disaffected Yorkists … promising to marry Elizabeth of York.” (09:32, Lewis)

2. Elizabeth of York: The Overlooked Heir

• Why not Elizabeth?
  • Custom excluded female succession—women could transmit claims but did not become monarchs in their own right in this era. (11:31, Lewis)
  • “Elizabeth is not really in a position to claim the throne for herself.” (11:31, Lewis)
• Marriage as Neutralization:
  • Henry crowned before their marriage to emphasize his claim was independent.

3. Strength of Henry’s Support

• Shaky Foundations:
  • “Almost nobody puts [Henry] on the throne in 1485 because they like him … they put him there because he’s the only option.” (12:49, Lewis)
  • Yorkist support crucial; Henry’s government in early years has a “very Yorkist sheen.” (10:19, Lewis)

4. Yorkist Alternatives & Their Fates

• Edward, Earl of Warwick:
  • Nephew of Richard III; legally barred by father’s attainder, imprisoned by Henry (16:32).
  • “Spends 14 years of the rest of his life in prison... kicked about as a political football.” (18:30, Lewis)
  • Executed in 1499 for supposed escape plot, possibly orchestrated to satisfy Spanish monarchs ahead of Arthur & Catherine’s marriage.
• John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln:
  • Considered heir presumptive by some, son of Richard III’s sister; initially treated as ally by Henry, later rebelled and died at the Battle of Stoke (23:40, Lewis).
  • “John never openly claims the throne, but he does get mixed up in this Yorkist rebellion...” (24:57, Lewis)
• Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury:
  • Daughter of George, Duke of Clarence; neutralized via marriage and denied power base, later restored temporarily by Henry VIII, executed when seen as threat. (25:39, Lewis)
• The de la Pole Brothers (Edmund, Richard, William):
  • Continued Yorkist line overseas; Edmund executed in 1513 (at Henry VIII’s order, possibly in imitation of Henry V), Richard killed at Pavia (1525). William imprisoned for nearly 30 years—the longest in Tower history. (30:15-33:20)
  • “Speaks to that lingering Tudor fear of Yorkist blood.” (33:20, Lewis)

5. Women as Claimants and Political Pawns

• Other Yorkist princesses (daughters of Edward IV) married into nobility; not perceived as major threats, possibly because they “flew under the radar better than men.” (33:32, Lewis)

6. The Princes in the Tower and Pretenders

• Who were they? Edward V and Richard, Duke of York, sons of Edward IV.
  • Their disappearance created ongoing dynastic danger—nobody knew their fate, which left the door open to pretenders and conspiracy.
  • “The wars of the Roses may seem to have ended, but… the fight for the throne was only just beginning.” (04:32, Lipscomb)
• Matt’s contention: Richard III didn’t kill them—Lambert Simnel may have been Edward V, Perkin Warbeck possibly really Richard, Duke of York. (38:11, Lewis)
• Role of Pretenders:
  • Lambert Simnel: Paraded as (officially) Warwick but maybe really was Edward V; Henry defuses with leniency (“finds himself a patsy… someone to take the fall for it,” 44:49, Lewis).
  • Perkin Warbeck: Claimed to be Richard, Duke of York. Supported by foreign powers and Margaret of York. Confessed (possibly under duress/coercion); Matt raises doubts about the veracity and motivation behind the confession, e.g. protecting his family: “Undoubtedly that is a huge problem for the idea that his confession was a lie, that he was willing to stand up on the gallows… and say, I’m an imposter.” (49:55, Lewis)
  • The European connection: Foreign monarchs recognized and supported these figures, making their legitimacy a genuine threat to Henry.

7. Margaret of Burgundy’s Role

• Mastermind & Matriarch:
  • Supported Simnel and Warbeck.
  • Portrayed by Henry as “the diabolical duchess,” but admired as an effective ruler in Burgundy.
  • “She doesn’t do that by backing imposters … she has real options to back legitimate Yorkist heirs… so what did Margaret know?” (51:17-55:46, Lewis)

8. Other Foreign Claimants

• Lancastrian Blood Abroad:
  • Various European royals (e.g., Charles the Bold, Maximilian I) had (sometimes stronger) claims via descent—often through female lines or John of Gaunt—but did little to press these. (56:56-59:54)
  • Henry VII much more fearful of Yorkist than Lancastrian rivalries.

9. Legitimacy, Hereditary Monarchy & the Question of ‘Rightful’

• Matt’s Verdict:
  • Ultimately, “Who is the rightful king…? The simple answer is whoever can make themselves king… in 1485, Henry VII is the rightful king of England because he is the man wearing the crown.” (63:20, Lewis)
  • Discussion of how the notion of hereditary succession was a recent development; before this, kingship was more fluid and subject to power, parliament, and circumstance—not abstract ‘right’.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Henry’s claim and the nature of right:
  • “His title rested less on ancient inheritance than on the sharp edge of a sword.” (03:33, Lipscomb)
  • “Almost nobody puts him on the throne in 1485 because they like him…he’s the only option.” (12:49, Lewis)
• On the endless suspicion of Yorkist blood:
  • “Why keep William, a junior brother of a junior branch of the family, imprisoned for longer than anybody else has been imprisoned at the Tower of London? It can only be because he still represents some kind of a threat in the mind of the Tudors.” (33:20, Lewis)
• On the mystery of the princes in the Tower:
  • “Whether the boys were murdered in 1483 or survived for many years after that, the doubt is the problem. For the Tudors, the belief that at least one of them could be alive leads to threats for most of Henry VII’s reign…” (41:29, Lewis)
• On Perkin Warbeck’s confession:
  • “The real issue is… Perkin confirms this on the gallows… and the only explanation I can offer is… to protect his family… but undoubtedly, that is a huge problem for the idea that his confession was a lie.” (49:55, Lewis)
• Matt’s reluctant conclusion about ‘rightful king’:
  • “As much as I hate to say this… the bottom line is that in 1485, Henry VII is the rightful king of England, because he is the man wearing the crown.” (63:20, Lewis)
  • “You heard Matt Lewis say that Henry VII was the rightful king of England.” (63:26, Lipscomb, playfully)
  • “AI voices can make you say anything nowadays, Susie. It's not me. I didn't say that.” (63:30, Lewis, joking)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:33] – Suzannah Lipscomb’s opening summary: How Henry’s claim rested on conquest, not blood
• [05:59] – Matt Lewis declares Ricardian bias: “Richard III… rightful King of England; Henry Tudor was a nobody…”
• [08:09-10:39] – Discussion of how Henry built his coalition, promise to marry Elizabeth of York
• [11:21-12:37] – Why Elizabeth of York could not claim the throne in her own right
• [16:32-18:49] – Fate of Edward, Earl of Warwick under Henry VII
• [22:14-24:57] – The case of John de la Pole, his rebellion and death
• [30:15-33:20] – The fates of Edmund, Richard, and William de la Pole
• [33:32-35:37] – Role and invisibility of female Yorkist claimants
• [37:49-42:02] – In-depth: Princes in the Tower, their disappearance and ongoing threat
• [44:49-45:58] – Lambert Simnel: was he really just a boy, or someone more?
• [46:09-49:55] – Perkin Warbeck: his claim, confession, and possible motivations
• [51:17-55:46] – Margaret of Burgundy’s role and motives regarding pretenders
• [56:56-59:54] – Overview of foreign claimants with Lancastrian blood
• [61:06-63:20] – Final reflection on legitimacy, monarchy, and what ultimately makes a ‘rightful king’

Tone & Style

• The conversation melds academic rigor and accessible explanations, with a witty and warm dynamic between Lipscomb and Lewis. Matt’s Ricardian sympathies add color but the episode remains fair to all sides—concluding with honesty about the messy, realpolitik roots of English kingship at the cusp of Tudor rule.

In Summary

This episode is an essential deep-dive for anyone seeking to understand the dynastic chessgame at the close of the 15th century, the ambiguity of ‘rightful rule’—and why, sometimes, the only real claim is possession of the crown.