Not Just the Tudors: "Princes in the Tower"

Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guests: Nathan Ammon (historian, author of Henry VII and the Tudor Pretenders) & Matt Lewis (historian, chair of the Richard III Society, co-host of Gone Medieval)
Original Episode Date: December 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into one of English history’s enduring mysteries: the fate of the Princes in the Tower—Edward V and his brother Richard, Duke of York—and the political pretenders who emerged during the turbulent early Tudor years. With historians Nathan Ammon and Matt Lewis offering deeply contrasting viewpoints, the discussion revisits the stories of Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. The conversation explores whether these figures were truly the missing princes, examines new documentary evidence, considers the wider European political context, and tackles why this centuries-old mystery holds such fascination today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Who Were the Princes in the Tower?

(02:12–04:54)

• Edward V and his brother Richard were lodged in the Tower of London in 1483, supposedly awaiting Edward’s coronation. Their uncle Richard, Duke of Gloucester, soon declared them illegitimate and became Richard III.
• The boys disappeared, leading to centuries of speculation that Richard III had them murdered—or that they survived in obscurity, resurfacing as claimants in dynastic plots.

Lambert Simnel: Pretender or Prince?

(04:54–16:30)

The Traditional Narrative (Nathan Ammon)

• Lambert Simnel was presented by Yorkist rebels as Edward, Earl of Warwick, a legitimate heir, though the real Warwick was imprisoned in the Tower by Henry VII.
• Simnel’s cause gained momentum, especially in Ireland, where Yorkist loyalty was strong.
• Henry VII responded by exhibiting the real Warwick in public, undermining Simnel’s claim; the rebels pressed on regardless, culminating in the failed Battle of Stoke Field (1487).

"Lambert Simnel was a boy put forward, quite simply, to impersonate Edward, the Earl of Warwick." – Nathan Ammon (09:37)

The Revisionist Perspective (Matt Lewis)

• Lewis argues much of the Simnel plot was "smoke and mirrors" orchestrated by Henry VII.
• Contemporary and later sources (e.g., Bernard André, Polydore Vergil) sometimes describe the uprising as being “in favor of a son of Edward IV”—possibly Edward V—rather than Warwick.
• Skeptical of the idea that a 10-year-old “random boy from Oxford” could command such adult, noble loyalty in major battles; instead, sees evidence suggesting the movement’s leader was someone of actual royal status.

"I wonder to some extent whether this means it's a fairly open secret at the Tudor court that they pulled the wool over everybody's eyes..." – Matt Lewis (13:33)

Public Knowledge and Perception

• There’s debate about whether the general public knew the real Warwick was imprisoned (10:12–10:24).
• The widespread noble support for the uprising suggests the cause was more than a simple farce.

The Fate of the Real Princes: Alive or Dead?

(19:42–25:42)

• Matt Lewis presents circumstantial evidence suggesting the two princes survived Richard III’s reign:
  • Obscure contemporary references to royal sons alive in custody.
  • Henry VII's penchant for destroying potentially incriminating records.

"We do then have these mentions throughout the 1480s. This kind of new evidence... is adding to that idea that people at least believed one or both of the Princes were still alive to be championed..." – Matt Lewis (21:12)

• Nathan Ammon points out:
  • No "smoking gun" evidence either for murder or survival.
  • Many chronicles (e.g., Crowland Chronicle, Dominic Mancini) referenced rumors of the princes’ deaths.
  • Lack of explicit murder accusations against Richard III during his reign is explained as a result of his power to suppress dissenting records.

Was Henry VII’s Leniency Proof of Simnel’s Identity?

(25:42–32:11)

• Simnel was pardoned and given minor court employment rather than executed.
• Matt Lewis: This may have been Henry’s way to trivialize the rebellion and distract from the real threat.

"I think what Henry does is find a 10 year old boy... then he sets this boy up to say to everybody else, 'this is the guy they were following. Isn't it a joke?'" – Matt Lewis (26:37)

• Nathan Ammon: Early in his reign, Henry was more magnanimous; Simnel was just a pawn, too young to pose a real threat. Historical records support the existence of individuals named "Lambert Simnel" in Oxford at the time.

Perkin Warbeck: The Younger Prince Resurfaces?

(34:36–46:08)

Warbeck’s Backers and Claims (Nathan Ammon)

• Warbeck (appearing in Ireland, 1491) was championed by Yorkist exiles and quickly gained support from European powers opposed to Henry VII.
• French and Burgundian involvement reflects wider dynastic intrigue, not necessarily belief in his royal identity.

The Case for Warbeck as Richard, Duke of York (Matt Lewis)

• Warbeck fooled crowned heads and nobles, spoke perfect English, and won support from Margaret of Burgundy (the princes’ aunt)—who had other Yorkist claimants available.
• Lewis is skeptical that foreign monarchs would risk their legitimacy by backing an obvious imposter, suggesting instead they saw Warbeck as genuinely royal.

"I don't think they have an interest in doing that... They have no interest in doing that, never mind throwing endless amounts of money fortunes behind this person and risking their own political capital..." – Matt Lewis (61:06)

• Warbeck’s “confession” (after his capture) conveniently fits Henry VII's favored narrative, likely dictated by the king’s agents.

New Documentary Evidence: The Gelderland Document

• Recently discovered (but known to scholars for decades), this 15th-century document purports to be an account by Richard himself, describing his escape from the Tower with help from nobles.
• Matt Lewis: The details and consistency support its authenticity, but absolute proof remains elusive.

"We know it's genuine... There is lots of detail in there which is suggestive... but we can't be 100% clear that the person... was really... Richard, Duke of York." – Matt Lewis (45:06)

• Nathan Ammon: While the document is authentic, it could as easily be an elaborate forgery by someone skilled in deception.

Physical Identifiers: The Three Marks

(51:46–56:38)

• A French account claims “Richard” showed Maximilian three un-counterfeitable marks (on mouth, eye, and thigh) as proof of identity.
• Matt Lewis: Margaret of Burgundy and others would have known of these features; odd that Henry VII did not use the opportunity to disprove Warbeck’s claim.

"Henry conspicuously passes up the opportunity... which maybe suggest[s] that Richard, Duke of York had these three marks and this person we know as Perkin Warbeck had those three marks..." – Matt Lewis (54:29)

• Nathan Ammon: The marks may have existed, but we lack independent proof that the real Richard, Duke of York had them; stories may simply have been crafted to lend credibility to Warbeck.

The Sisters’ Silence

(56:38–59:48)

• Elizabeth of York (Henry VII’s queen, and sister to the princes) left no comment on the identity of the pretenders; her silence is interpreted both as protecting Tudor interests and as meaningful tacit acknowledgement.
• Cecily, another sister, likewise left no recorded view.

"It makes it even more striking that she doesn't say anything... this is the perfect way out... to say ‘this is not my brother’..." – Matt Lewis (58:03)

• Henry VII’s leniency with these claimants stands in contrast to summary executions of later, more obviously fraudulent pretenders.

The Enduring Mystery: Why Does It Matter?

(62:14–64:04)

• Nathan Ammon: The tale has all the elements of a compelling “whodunit”—lost royal children, conspiracy, tragedy.

"It's a tragic case of lost royal children that is going to tug at everyone's heartstrings and get people wondering what happened to them." – Nathan Ammon (62:29)

• Matt Lewis: It’s a tale built on myth, murder mystery, and questions of justice—to the dead as much as the living. Reputations, especially that of Richard III, hang in the balance centuries later.

"For me, there is an element here of thinking about whether someone's historical reputation is deserved or not. Richard has for 500 years been painted as a child murdering tyrant..." – Matt Lewis (62:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tudor Spin:

"I would argue that Lambert Simnel is a later creation as a figurehead for this. I don't believe that any 10-year-old boy was ever crowned in Dublin or led the army onto the battlefield at Stoke."
– Matt Lewis (26:31)

• On Motives of Foreign Backers:

"Everyone has something at play during this period, and I think that's very important—personal ambitions of each individual party."
– Nathan Ammon (18:24)

• On Lack of Evidence:

"We don't have any smoking gun to prove that they were murdered, but also we don't have the smoking gun that they survived."
– Nathan Ammon (22:46)

• On Historical Justice:

"It is right that we should think about the reputation of people who are no longer here to defend themselves."
– Matt Lewis (62:53)

Timeline of Major Segments

• 02:12 – Introduction to the story of the Princes in the Tower
• 04:54 – Lambert Simnel: context, claims, and the 1487 rebellion
• 09:41 – Questioning the traditional Simnel narrative
• 16:30 – Debate on why Simnel and his cause won so much support
• 19:42 – Assessing if the princes survived or died in the Tower
• 25:42 – The aftermath of Simnel’s defeat & Henry VII’s leniency
• 32:11 – The Simnel conspiracy’s Oxfordshire connections
• 34:36 – Perkin Warbeck: background, support, and European intrigue
• 38:10 – Was Warbeck really Richard, Duke of York?
• 42:06 – Analysis of new archival evidence ("Gelderland Document")
• 51:46 – The "three marks" and the question of identity
• 56:38 – The silence of the sisters
• 62:14 – Psychological and cultural reasons for enduring fascination

Conclusion

This episode offered a vivid, contentious, and nuanced debate about one of the Tudor era’s greatest mysteries. While Nathan Ammon and Matt Lewis presented divergent interpretations—Ammon stressing plausibility and context, Lewis hunting for cracks in Tudor spin—the discussion underscored the enduring allure of untold stories, unanswered questions, and the passion that history, and its unresolved mysteries, can still provoke.

For Further Listening/Reading

• Nathan Ammon, Henry VII and the Tudor Pretenders: Simnel, Warbeck and Warwick
• The Missing Princes Project (Philippa Langley)
• Matt Lewis, The Survival of the Princes in the Tower

This summary covers all major topics and controversies from the episode, with clear attributions, memorable quotes, and featured timestamps for easy reference. Perfect for listeners who want the heart of the debate without missing any of the drama!