Interviewer (Host) (5:39)

Lady Anne, welcome to the podcast.

Lady Anne Somerset (5:42)

Thank you very much. It's very nice to be here.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:44)

What drew you to Queen Anne?

Interviewer (Host) (5:46)

Why did you decide to write a book about her? I know your work on many other monarchs. You've been my great companion over the years and through your writing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:55)

But what is it about Queen Anne

Interviewer (Host) (5:56)

that was so appealing?

Lady Anne Somerset (5:58)

Well, many, many years ago now, I wrote a book called Ladies in Waiting, which covered sort of role of women at court since Tudor times to the present day. And one of the most fascinating chapters was on the court of Queen Anne and obviously examining her relationship with Sarah Churchill and Abigail Masham. And I enjoyed doing that so much that I thought I wanted to know more about it, actually. Initially I wondered about writing a book about Sarah Churchill, and then I thought, well, actually, hang on a second. She's the most ghastly woman. Whereas Queen Anne is in fact very likable, very underrated. And I'd really like to try and sort of redress the balance and change the perceptions that one has of her, which very largely derive from this sort of completely distorted picture that Sarah Churchill portrayed of her and which has, you know, gone down in history as the correct version.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (7:01)

Yes.

Interviewer (Host) (7:02)

So Queen Anne is often remembered as being weak and ineffective. What first made you question that image?

Lady Anne Somerset (7:10)

Well, just as I came to see the Duchess of Marlborough as an unreliable commentator and, you know, reading the letters that Anne sent and with quite often Sarah making accusations, saying that she's clearly unable to make decisions for herself, that she's. Well, basically telling her that she's stupid, that she's hopeless in every way, and, you know, Anne's perfectly rational and sort of sensible responses. And so then I thought, well, hang on a second, this isn't right. And I think that one ought to try and sort of change perceptions of Queen Anne.

Interviewer (Host) (7:58)

Absolutely. Now, there's an interesting paradox when we think about Queen Anne, which is the contrast between her physical reality and the carefully curated public image, particularly in what I suppose maybe public is going too far, but what was presented at court through art and decoration. Can we talk about that contrast?

Lady Anne Somerset (8:22)

Well, I mean, Anne was, you know, in very poor health and she wasn't a glamorous figure. You know, she was very overweight. And also she probably suffered from lupus. And in her case, that sometimes made her skin complexion, you know, very red and inflamed. And she was sort of often limping from what was then diagnosed as goat, but in fact was almost certainly another form of arthritis. So in some respects she was a fairly sort of pitiable figure. But nevertheless, you know, she was aware that she must try and appear sort of fairly majestic if possible. So quite a lot of attention was paid to her clothes and appearance. And when she was at her most infirm, then she would sort of not appear in public. But at other times, if she did appear in public, she actually had to be sort of carried in a. On a chair sort of thing because she couldn't walk at all. But if she appeared at a public thanksgiving, she would make a great effort to wear sort of fairly splendid clothes and jewelry. But it was certainly a bit of an uphill struggle to present her as, you know, a figure who sort of radiated power. And we have one account of a young man who visited her at court, I mean, on a political mission, and he was appalled by what he saw. Anne was sort of sitting, and he's left a rather sort of revolting account of how her feet were bound up in rather sort of grubby bandages. And he says, sort of, oh, I thought to myself, you know, what an extraordinary thing, poor infirm woman, the idea that you're this powerful ruler. But, you know, she did her best to hide from her people quite how ill she was, but that it wasn't always possible to project an image of great regality and power.

Interviewer (Host) (10:30)

Certainly it's interesting that you note the sort of lack of glamour, and I wonder whether you think that's unfairly affected her historical reputation.

Lady Anne Somerset (10:41)

Well, I mean, you know, she's not one of those monarchs that has sort of an instant recognition factor, although that applies to quite a lot of monarchs in a way. I mean, I don't think many people could sort of identify someone like George I. Very much so. And I mean, to a certain extent, you know, in the late 17th, early 18th century, I mean, a monarch was obviously much less visible figure when there's no mass media and things. But, I mean, possibly I think her historical reputation might have been sort of more adversely affected by just this idea that she was just deeply dull, deeply limited. I mean, sort of more or less sort of pretty stupid. And that I, you know, I think that hasn't given her a sort of positive reputation and means that people are sort of apt to be very disparaging about her achievements. And to think that the successes of her reign had absolutely nothing to do with her.

Interviewer (Host) (11:50)

Well, we'll talk a bit more about some of those successes, but I do want to first of all address this question of her personal life, because her experiences of pregnancy and child loss are extraordinary. Do we know anything about why she had such a torrid time?

Lady Anne Somerset (12:06)

Well, it's not certain, but it certainly seems a very plausible explanation to me that she suffered from something that's only relatively reasonably been discovered, something called Hughes Syndrome. And it's got a very unpronounceable medical name, which is. I think it's antiphospholipid syndrome. And that means that the blood tends to sicken so that as the pregnancy progresses, the blood fails to get through to the placenta, and so the baby is gradually starved of nutrients. And, I mean, one aspect of her many failed pregnancies was that they tended to fail very late. So in a way that made it sort of all the more heartbreaking. And sort of each time she's pregnant, there's this thing of sort of, oh, well, this time I'm going to take different precaution. Or sometimes she says, I will literally stay in bed all pregnancy. Sometimes she says, no, I think it might be a good idea to try and take more exercise or something like that. And everyone says sort of, oh, well, you know, it's all going very well and, you know, she's heavily pregnant and then, you know, disaster strikes. But it is this sort of terrible sort of torment of hope that she underwent so many times. And then to have the hope stash, yes, absolutely heartbreaking.

Interviewer (Host) (13:38)

How did her faith help her cope? I wonder how central you think it was to her identity.

Lady Anne Somerset (13:45)

Well, I think. I mean, without that, I don't think she could have coped at all. I mean, she was a passionate Anglican and she was devoted to the Church of England, and both when she has failed pregnancies and, I mean, she has three children who live for a certain amount of time and one boy does live till his 11th birthday and then he dies. And, I mean, I think that was almost the cruelest blow of all when he dies. And we have accounts of, you know, her being. Her and her husband being sort of utterly heartbroken and living in seclusion, and the only thing they do is read sort of devotional literature. And, I mean, clearly that does sustain her and indeed enables, because all these tragedies took place actually before she became queen. And it's clearly her faith that enables her, when she then inherits the throne, to sort of come out of the seclusion and face the challenges that being a ruler entailed.

Interviewer (Host) (14:58)

You mentioned her husband there, Prince George of Denmark. You paint a much warmer picture of him than many historians have done. Why has he been so underestimated?

Lady Anne Somerset (15:08)

Well, I mean, the trouble is, I think you have to admit that he probably was. I mean, he wasn't the most scintillating man in the world. And then there is this sort of famous and incredibly memorable quote from Charles II of I've tried him drunk and I've tried him sober and there's nothing in him. And one can't say that's totally unfair. But at the same time, I mean, he was definitely a sort of rock fan. And also, you know, I Think he. He was a man of. I mean, he was not only just an sort of amiable man, but he, you know, he had good sense and he clearly did provide her with some sort of political advice, quite sensible advice, and makes him Lord High Admiral and, I mean, in his lifetime. Then there are sort of some criticisms saying he wasn't up to that job. But in fact, there are other assessments that say he was actually very good. And the opposition and criticism came from, you know, was politically motivated. I think it's just as well did at one point cherish hopes that he would become sort of commander in chief of all the Allied armies. And I think one can safely say that wouldn't have been the best idea. But he certainly was, I mean, not maybe a more impressive figure, but, you know, a good source of advice for her. And then the other thing that perhaps has led to him being dismissed as at best and irrelevance is that once again, Sarah Churchill sort of is. Is very, very dismissive and scathing about him. And when he dies in 1708, every account is, you know, absolutely emphasizes that Queen Anne is once again heartbroken. And there are, you know, very touching accounts of her sort of kissing his body and having to be sort of dragged away from the place where he died. But by this time, Sarah is maintaining that Anne is in the throes of a lesbian relationship with Abigail Masham. So it doesn't sort of accord with her ideas that Anne is upset at her husband's parting. And so she says sort of, oh, she didn't mind at all. And the very day he died, she ate a large and hearty dinner and stuff. And I mean, again, this is, you know, the most monstrous lie, and I mean, very unfair to both Prince George and above all, to Queen Anne.

Interviewer (Host) (17:56)

So let's talk then about her relationship with Sarah Churchill, which is intense and ultimately destructive. What was it that brought them together in the first place?

Lady Anne Somerset (18:06)

It was sort of more or less to start with, I mean, almost a schoolgirl adolescent crush. I mean, Sarah was a maid of honor to Anne's stepmother and she was an extraordinary young woman. I mean, she was clearly, when she was on good form, unbelievably entertaining. And she was. I mean, she was very intelligent and obviously very, very funny. And although Sarah would later sort of imply that Anne didn't really have the sense of humor to appreciate her jokes, but she clearly was sort of entrancing company when she was at her best. And sort of Anne, who is herself as a young girl, very shy, very inarticulate and she falls completely under Sarah's spell. And although Sarah would later say sort of, oh, having to spend hours with her was like being imprisoned in a dungeon. I mean, Sarah clearly did realize that what side her bread was buttered on and that, you know, a friendship with a princess could be, you know, good for her husband and John Churchill, who was a soldier and, and her own career. And so although I dare say it was a bit boring at times, you know, she, she certainly put herself out to keep, well, mad about her, really.

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Interviewer (Host) (22:03)

Yes. How do you think that a modern audience should understand the emotional language in Anne's letters to women like Sarah?

Lady Anne Somerset (22:13)

Well, I don't know. I mean, I will sort of add as a caution. I have a feeling I am apt to be a bit sort of naive about sexual relationships in history. And I'm sort of a bit. Oh, no, no, of course it wasn't. But in the case of Anne and Sarah, I Mean, I think it is worth saying that the sort of things that Anne says to Sarah is not a unique example. I mean, in the 17th century, women often did have these very close friendships with each other. And I mean, certainly in a lot of cases that didn't imply that there was a sexual element to the friendship. I mean, there was almost sometimes, I think, a feeling that because so many marriages in those days were arranged and, you know, pretty loveless, although that actually wasn't the case for either Anne or Sarah, but that friendships with women might be able to provide sort of a more emotional satisfaction and also sort of be on grounds of equality. Whereas, of course, women were not meant to be on equal terms with men. But having said that, you know, they are very, very passionate. I mean, she says sort of, I'll love you to the end of my days, you know, I'll never betray you till I'm in my coffin. And, you know, it's up, up to personal interpretation, I think. I mean, some people would say, look, I. I just don't believe that you, you can have a sort of passionate attachment of this sort without there being some sort of physical involvement as well. But I'm not really of that view.

Interviewer (Host) (23:58)

Yes, perhaps it is possible to have an erotic overtone without physical consternation of the relationship.

Lady Anne Somerset (24:07)

I mean, I would say they're very passionate, the letters, and she expresses her undying love. But I wouldn't actually say that you could put your finger on, if that's right, on it being erotic and indeed, I mean, they're. I mean, when they are actually discussing sort of physical stuff, it's, it's all much more to do with their pregnancies and, you know, their menstrual cycles and all, all that sort of thing, which, I don't know, seems to me slightly incompatible with this lesbian relationship. But, you know, I mean, of course, ultimately it's then Sarah who turns around and accuses Anne of having lesbian inclinations. Although rather confusingly, she doesn't seem to say, well, I know you're a lesbian because we were lesbians and you know, and now you're doing it with someone else. She seems to be saying that Anne is having a lesbian relations with Abigail Masham, but their own relationship was very different to that.

Interviewer (Host) (25:20)

Is there any reason that Sarah Churchill might have accused the Queen of a lesbian relationship with Abigail Masham for political reasons?

Lady Anne Somerset (25:32)

Well, once Anne and Sarah have fallen out very, very badly, and that is partly over political disagreements. So Sarah was determined to embarrass and shame Anne and she believes with, perhaps not entirely without justification, that Abigail Masham is scheming and causing political difficulties for her husband. And so sort of, if she could pressure Anne into dismissing Abigail, that she believed that that would be beneficial to her. But, I mean, what's strange is that, I mean, Sarah goes to Anne and is saying things like sort of, oh, the secret's getting very well known now everyone's aware of it and, you know, you'd better be careful. Your reputation's going to be completely destroyed if you carry on like this. And yet, I mean, I couldn't find any evidence at all that anyone other than Sarah and she has a sort of crony who writes rude rhymes, sort of implying that Abigail and Anne are having a lesbian relationship. But I couldn't come across anything that suggests that there was a physical relationship. And there are some pieces that suggest that Abigail Masham had too much influence, but not that there's something else going on at all. So, I mean, by the end, when Sarah and Anne have fallen out so badly, I mean, Sarah is sort of lashing out in an almost insane way in her determination to do everything possible to embarrass. And Sarah also starts threatening to publish Anne's early letters to her. So to that extent, she herself clearly believes that Anne will certainly be very embarrassed, but perhaps she might have almost wished it to be thought that shows that Anne has lesbian inclinations. But Sarah certainly is partly motivated by politics.

Interviewer (Host) (27:55)

Can we talk about Anne as a political figure? She attended more cabinet meetings than any other monarch. Why has this been so overlooked?

Lady Anne Somerset (28:05)

Well, again, I mean, I think that the sort of stereotypical picture of Anne is that she was just a very limited woman who wasn't capable of doing, influencing anyone or even making up her own mind. So I think that anything that she achieved, she's apt not to be given the credit for. And, I mean, I have to admit that, you know, when I started my research, although I knew that she attended so many cabinet meetings, I mean, I did rather think, well, you know, Prattshire just sat there like a pudding sort of thing and didn't have a great deal of input. But, I mean, although I don't think one must go too far the other way and make out that, you know, she was absolutely running everything and, you know, that the successes of the war were all down to her and that sort of thing, you know, I think one has to accept that she was consulted and informed more about sort of war logistics, war strategy than I sort of assumed would have been the case, and that also she did Sometimes, you know, disagree with something that had been suggested to her and, you know, she had quite a lot of input. So it is unfair that she's nevertheless in sort of portrayed as somebody who was just, you know, in a way completely insignificant. Just, just a figurehead.

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Interviewer (Host) (30:58)

One characteristic of Anne when it came to politics was moderation. Was this a strength or a weakness, do you think?

Lady Anne Somerset (31:08)

Well, I mean, what Anne was very, very concerned about was that she didn't want a single political party to monopolize power. And again, some people said that was unwise of her because the Whigs, who were the slightly more left leaning party, and they were much more committed to the war, but at the same time they were also committed to lessening the power of the monarch. And it's understandable that wasn't sort of mustard keen on them. But I think that it would have been unwise to let one party get too powerful because, well, for a start, that would have polarized the political nation sort of even worse than was the case. And also each party, what they aimed for was to, I mean, literally not just have sort of cabinet appointments and ministerial appointments, but their party supporters would have been placed, you know, in sort of every administrative position, every justices of the peace, all that sort of thing. And to a certain extent then the monarch wouldn't have been allowed to choose his or her own ministers. I mean, that would have been imposed on him or her. So I think it's understandable that, you know, try to prevent that from happening. And although she's often accused of favoring the Tories at the expense of the Whigs and indeed sort of treating the Whigs badly and getting rid of them. As soon as an opportunity offered itself, actually, when, when the Tories do come in and replace the Whigs, she didn't let them have, you know, complete control. And again, when they tried to sort of purge positions right the way through government and install their own followers, she was very resistant to that. So I think all that is a perfectly sensible approach for a monarch to take and, you know, was a good way, I mean, to. Exactly. One of the achievements that's remembered from

Interviewer (Host) (33:21)

her reigning is the union with Scotland in 1707. It was actually unpopular, wasn't it?

Lady Anne Somerset (33:27)

At the outset of the reign, Scotland is, and England are on very bad terms. And then the Scots start saying, well, when the Queen dies, we won't install the Hanoverian successor that the English Parliament had settled on as going to be the next ruler. They said sort of, no, we'll choose somebody else. And if that had happened, then, you know, there is a real possibility that England and Scotland would have gone to war. And Anne was obviously very concerned about that. But whereas quite a lot of her ministers said, well, you know, all we need to do is to ensure that Scotland agrees that they'll be the same successor to the Crown and then we can leave it at that. That solved the problem. Anne always believed that the, the best way of, of solving the problem was to have a union with Scotland. And I mean, very early on in the reign there's unsuccessful negotiations for a union. And sort of the impression is that sort of more or less everyone really had no hopes that it would come to fruition. And indeed, at that point it didn't. But when a bit later there starts to be negotiations, Anne is sort of right there encouraging the commissioners to reach an agreement. And then when the Scots Commissioners go back to Scotland and they have to do this quite difficult task of persuading the Scots Parliament to vote for its own abolition. And as you said, there is a lot of hostility in Scotland and riots and in fact, some of the Scottish ministers are literally in fear of their lives. And Anne is absolutely indicating that they can count on her support, that anything they need from her they will have. And so, you know, I think she does genuinely deserve a lot of the credit for, if you are a Scots nationalist, perhaps a lot of the discredit for what happened in the end.

Interviewer (Host) (35:43)

But the strange thing is that suspicions of Jacobitism clung to Anne. Why was that the case? I mean, the evidence is quite thin, isn't it?

Lady Anne Somerset (35:51)

It's incredibly unfair. And it was something that upset and indeed bewildered Anne herself. But I think that for a start, the Jacobites themselves, I mean, they deluded themselves that Anne was a Jacobite herself. I mean, partly because their position was so weak, that that was, you know, they. They really had to sort of pin their hopes on that. And perhaps the Scots had a point in that. They argued that Anne couldn't possibly genuinely believe that James Francis Edward Stuart was not really her half brother, and that they said that she must therefore be haunted by guilt. In fact, they said that she was haunted by guilt about how she behaved towards her father when she helped chase him off his throne, and that she was haunted by guilt that she knew that she'd deprived her brother of his birthright. And there is a certain logic to that argument, but in fact, it does seem that Anne, right to the end of her life, somehow managed to persuade herself that James Francis Edward Stuart wasn't her brother. But quite aside from that, I think she also genuinely believed that he was unfit to come King of England. But the Jacobites, you know, had to cling to this hope that she was his supporter. And then other English politicians, on the other hand, would like to sort of get in touch with the Hanoverians and sort of make out sort of that, oh, I'm afraid the Queen is not really on your side at all, and if it wasn't for us, then, you know, you'd be in a very weak position and you would be very unlikely to inherit the frame. So they wanted to sort of build up this image of Anne as a Jacobite. And also, it is true that her two leading ministers towards the end of her reign were in touch with James Francis Edward Stuart and sort of rather implying that they would try and affect his restoration after Anne died. But again, I think actually they probably were stringing him along actually to sort of protect their own career. And also, I think Anne herself was completely ignorant of what they were up to. So there was that. And then Anne also, very understandably, was always resolutely opposed to the idea that one of a member of the Hanoverian family, either her immediate heir apparent or son or grandson, should come to England, sort of, and sort of, as it were, wait like a sort of vulture for her death. And she was quite right to be against that, because, you know, if there had been a successor who wasn't her own child in England, then, you know, opposition politicians would have started intriguing with him. They'd have set up a rival Court, which would probably have been rather more sort of glamorous and had sort of better frequented by influential people. So. And again, that perfectly rational approach was then misrepresented as representing hostility to her Hanoverian heirs and a determination that they would never be rulers of England, which, you know, was very unfair.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:41)

Do you think Anne herself felt fulfilled

Interviewer (Host) (39:46)

as a queen and successful? Or should we consider that perhaps, actually, over the course of her reign, she did not feel that she had achieved what she might like to have done?

Lady Anne Somerset (40:01)

I think that. Well, certainly towards the very end of her reign, there's quite a lot of evidence that Anne is slightly unhappy, partly by the way she's served. I mean, she has a feeling that her ministers and the politicians are very much out for themselves, and they're not really just acting out of loyalty to her or loyalty to the country. I mean, that they're maneuvering in ways that sort of isn't necessarily in her interest. And I think she clearly is pretty unhappy about that. But at the same time, I think she felt that the war had been a success, and at the same time, she certainly does not feel that she prematurely ended the war and that it was a mistake and that England should have got better terms in the peace treaty. So I think, you know, that's a source of satisfaction. But I think she is also acutely conscious of the fact that she's being portrayed as a Jacobite sympathizer, and she's trying to sort of change that perception, but it's quite difficult. She sometimes calls in sort of leading figures in the country and she says, you know, for God's sake, I'm not a Jacobite. This is absolutely mad. And then people sort of say, oh, she's protesting too much. I mean, it's like a woman who's got a bad sexual reputation that feels that she has to try and justify herself, and so she couldn't win. And I think that does make her feel very unhappy. And in fact, you know, her final illness, which is a. I mean, you know, it's very possible that sort of stress and distress played its part in bringing that about.

Interviewer (Host) (41:57)

Finally, then, if listeners were to remember just one thing about Queen Anne differently after this episode, what do you think it should be?

Lady Anne Somerset (42:07)

Well, that. I think that she's been a very underrated queen. I think that she shouldn't be defined solely in the terms of the personal tragedy of her failed motherhood. I mean, well, it sounds very faint plays to say, so she wasn't as dull as all that, but I think that she should be given credit for her achievements and that I think that whenever you read any account of Queen Anne deriving from the writings of Sarah, Duchess of Aldborough, I think you have to take a very, very skeptical approach.

Interviewer (Host) (42:45)

That's really helpful. Thank you so much for rehabilitating Queen Anne, certainly to some extent during the course of this podcast, and giving us a sense of who she was when she's not being described by her enemies.

Lady Anne Somerset (43:00)

Well, I'm delighted to have had the opportunity.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:05)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line and notjusthetutorshistorykit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors from History. Hit.

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