Raleigh and the Lost Colony of Roanoke

Summary

Podcast Summary: Not Just the Tudors

Episode: "Raleigh and the Lost Colony of Roanoke"

Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb | Guest: Professor Mark Horton
Date: November 20, 2025

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Overview

This episode delves into the enduring enigma of the Lost Colony of Roanoke—England’s first attempt at establishing a permanent settlement in North America under Sir Walter Raleigh. Host Professor Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by archaeologist Professor Mark Horton, whose research challenges long-held assumptions about the fate of the colonists, revealing the powerful intersection of legend, racism, and historical fact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Historical Scene (02:13–08:34)

• Raleigh’s Ambitions: Walter Raleigh, a favorite of Elizabeth I, obtained a patent to establish a colony in North America after his half-cousin Humphrey Gilbert’s failed Newfoundland venture.
• Why England Lagged Behind Spain: England’s delayed interest in American colonization was rooted in internal instability during Henry VIII’s reign and religious turmoil, whereas Spain was actively building its American empire.
• Early Exploration: Expeditions (1584–1587) were driven by hopes of mineral wealth, lucrative plants, fertile land, and a strategic privateering base to intercept Spanish galleons.

Quote:
“It was part empire building, part exploration, and part sheer adventure.” — Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb (02:46)

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2. The Geography and Perils of Roanoke (13:25–15:38)

• Poor Site Selection: The Outer Banks were hazardous—essentially long sand dunes with unstable inlets and no safe harbors.
• Impact on the Colony: The location’s impracticality led to frequent shipwrecks and difficulty supplying the settlement, dooming it from the outset.

Quote:
“Ultimately, it was the most extraordinary, stupid place.” — Prof. Mark Horton (15:13)

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3. The English Expeditions (15:38–24:42)

• First Expedition (1584): A scouting mission, establishing friendly relations with locals and painting an overly rosy picture to attract investment.
• Second Expedition (1585–1586): Led by Richard Grenville, more militaristic, worsened relations with Native Americans under Ralph Lane’s harsh leadership.
• Funding and Logistics: Privately funded by Raleigh and investors, the projects required substantial resources—“millions in modern quantity.”
• Third Expedition (1587): Intended as a civilian colony, included women (notably White’s daughter and granddaughter, Virginia Dare), skilled craftsmen, and laborers.

Quote:
“It’s such a sort of confidence trick, really. Here we are, don’t worry, we’ve got the logo and we’ll build the business. You know, come put your money in.” — Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb (22:12)

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4. The Disappearance (27:35–35:12)

• John White’s Predicament: The colony, beset by food shortages, persuaded Governor White to return to England for supplies—but the Armada and English priorities thwarted his return until 1590.
• The “Clues”: White found the colony deserted, with “CRO” carved into a tree and “Croatoan” on a post, but no sign of distress (no cross mark).
• Logical Assumptions: Since Croatoan (Hatteras Island) was the homeland of the colonists’ Native ally Manteo, and they had prearranged this as a signal, it was reasonable to conclude the colonists relocated there voluntarily.
• White’s Failure to Pursue: White was denied by the ship's captain from traveling the mere 30 miles to Hatteras—a decision that has tantalized historians.

Quote:
“Even though he knows that his daughter is only 30 miles away on Hatteras Island, nonetheless, he had set sail back across the Atlantic and leave them abandoned.” — Prof. Mark Horton (34:02)

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5. Myths, Racism, and the American Origin Story (38:10–47:46)

• Origin of the “Lost Colony” Myth: The actual term "Lost Colony" and the mystery surrounding it are 20th-century inventions, popularized in the 1930s by Paul Green’s outdoor drama “The Lost Colony.”
• Racial Politics: The notion that colonists were massacred (rather than assimilated) gained traction among white supremacist historians who refused to accept that “pure” English colonists might intermarry with Native Americans, especially the symbolic Virginia Dare.
• Elaborate Hoaxes: Fake “Dare Stones” were forged in the 1930s to support the massacre theory, as recent research by historian Melissa Darby demonstrated.

Quote:
“The entire idea that this is a lost colony is a racist fiction about what happened in the late 16th century.” — Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb (41:50)

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6. Archaeological Revelations (44:33–48:17)

• Real Evidence of Assimilation: Archaeological digs on Hatteras Island reveal late 16th-century English artifacts integrated into Native settlements—copper buns, Nuremberg tokens, ceramics, and, crucially, hammerscale (evidence of blacksmithing, a solely European skill).
• Continued European Influence: By the 17th century, findings included firearms use, European clothing, and evidence of trade and cultural blending—matching John Lawson’s accounts of English-Native descendants.

Quote:
“So that is a smoking gun, if you like, that they’re there in these Native American villages making iron, because Native Americans certainly wouldn’t know how to do it.” — Prof. Mark Horton (45:27)

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7. Rewriting the Narrative (48:17–52:32)

• A Manufactured Mystery: There is no contemporary evidence (from Raleigh or White) describing the colony as “lost”—that label is strictly a 20th-century creation.
• Alternative History: The host and guest speculate whether successful early assimilation at Roanoke might have portended a less bloody history of English-Native relations than what later occurred at Jamestown under the more brutal Stuart regime.
• Modern Resonance: The myth of white purity embodied in Virginia Dare became a rallying point for 1930s isolationists and remains potent among American white nationalists, revealing the enduring power of historical narratives.

Quote:
“Yes, the Lost Colony was never lost at all. And actually the history of America, of Virginia Dare, the first English child born in America, is the history of America today, which is assimilation of peoples with each other.” — Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb (50:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “History is not about the biography of great men, but individuals make such a difference.” — Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb (20:00)
• “The subsequent history of English colonization is one of utter brutalism… would history have been different if the Elizabethans had been successful?” — Prof. Mark Horton (48:48)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:13] — Introduction to Roanoke and Raleigh’s Ambitions
• [13:25] — The Geography and Dangers of the Outer Banks
• [15:38] — The Three Main English Voyages to Roanoke
• [29:38] — John White’s Return and the “Croatoan” Clue
• [38:10] — Myths, Racism, and the Invention of the “Lost Colony”
• [44:54] — Archaeological Evidence of Assimilation on Hatteras
• [48:17] — No Contemporary “Lost Colony” Narrative: A Twentieth Century Fable
• [50:41] — Modern Political Resonance of the Virginia Dare Myth

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Summary & Takeaway

This episode overturns the accepted narrative of the “Lost Colony” of Roanoke, showing that the real mystery is not what became of the colonists, but why later Americans were so invested in denying the story of successful Anglo-Native assimilation. Thanks to new archaeological finds and bold historical detective work, the legend of the doomed and vanished English is shown to be a purposeful, racialized fiction—one whose reverberations continue in modern American identity politics.

Listeners are left with a transformed understanding of both early colonial history and the power of myth in shaping national identity.

Transcript

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. There's something irresistible about a mystery that refuses to be solved. And few are as haunting or as enduring as the lost colony of Roanoke, one of the great enigmas of early American history. In the late 16th century, when England was eager to rival Spain on the world stage, Walter Raleigh, a favourite of Queen Elizabeth I, set his sights on the New World. His dream was to establish a permanent English colony across the Atlantic. Part empire building, part exploration and part sheer adventure, Raleigh's vision led to the small settlement on Roanoke island off the coast of what is now North Carolina. It was meant to be the beginning of England's colonial future. But when the colony's governor, John white, returned in 1590 after a three year absence, he found it deserted. There were only two clues to the fate of more than 100 men, women and children. A single word carved into a wooden post, Croton. And three letters carved on the palisade. CRO. For more than four centuries, people have speculated about what became of the colony. Did the people seek refuge with the local Native Americans? Were they lost at sea or absorbed into nearby communities? Archaeology and historical detective work have given us tantalizing fragments of evidence, but never a final answer. And perhaps that's part of the magic. Roanoke remains a story where history and legend meet. This episode comes thanks to one of our listeners, Cheryl Cleveland from Raleigh, North Carolina, who suggested we explore this mystery. And how fitting, given that her own city bears Sir Walter Raleigh's name.

[Cheryl Cleveland]

Hi, my name is Cheryl Cleveland and I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. That means I live in the capital city of the state of North Carolina, which is indeed named after Sir Walter Raleigh. Sir Walter pops up often in our culture here and we have a couple of wonderful statues of him in our downtown area. In fact, the one outside our convention center. It's dressed up for various local events and festivals and it's easy to find nice pics of him online if you're interested. Now, as not just the Tudors fan, I would love to hear an episode about Sir Walter and his connection to the so called lost colony of Roanoke. Here in North Carolina, we hear a lot of speculation about what happened to the colony that was on our coastline. But I've never understood why Raleigh and his investors back in England were content to have the colony quote be lost. The efforts by John White to come find them once he was allowed to return still seem very minimal. So I'm wondering what were the legal ramifications back in England based on the status of lost? And were there other legal consequences for investors in the future ventures? Anyway, thank you for considering my suggestion.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Thank you, Cheryl. Joining me today is archaeologist Professor Mark Horton from the Royal Agricultural University in the uk, whose research shed light on Raleigh's ambitions, Elizabethan exploration and the enduring mystery of the lost colony. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from history hit. Professor Horton, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Hi, Susanna, it's lovely to be with you.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So, first of all, let's clear up a small matter of nomenclature. Raleigh. Raleigh. What should we be saying here?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Well, Rawleigh is probably correct. Raleigh is what is often now used in modern parlance, and probably the Victorians are responsible for that. So I don't mind. There's a series of spellings and a lot of ambiguity. So let's stick with Raleigh because that's what everyone knows.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Okay, so bring us up to speed. By the late 16th century, what's the history of England's involvement in North America?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Okay, so it goes really back to an extraordinary man called Humphrey Gilbert, who was a bit of a visionary, lived down in Devon, and he obtained a patent from Queen Elizabeth to found a colony on the coast of North America that was not otherwise possessed by Spain. And he set off, ended up in Newfoundland, and he erected a flag, much the bemusement of the Basque fishermen that were sitting around there, declared this was for Queen Elizabeth, and then returned back. But unfortunately, he insisted on going back in a small boat, the Squirrel, which was overwhelmed at sea, and he was lost at sea, reputedly reading Thomas More's Utopia as he drowned.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

I want to know who the source is for that particular fact.

[Professor Mark Horton]

And the result was there was a patent going begging. And so his half cousin Walter Raleigh, who was ascending a court, Elizabethan court at the time, said, I'll have that. And the Queen reissued it to Raleigh to establish a colony on the coast of North America. And a series of expeditions set out from 1584 to the last one, 1587, to establish this colony. So that's basically what happened. And they were seeking out. They had no real idea of the topography. They knew about this big waterway called the Chesapeake, which they'd heard vaguely about, but unfortunately, they light on the Outer Banks, which are barrier islands that are incredibly dangerous, but they stick out into the Atlantic and would be an obvious place to stop.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So can I just ask a question? Why had the English dropped the baton of colonisation quite so much in the 16th century? I mean, why had interest in establishing colonies, you know, fallen away under Henry viii? How had they got so far behind The Spanish, for example.

[Professor Mark Horton]

I mean, as you know. You know, the politics of England during the mid 16th century was full of intrigue and incompetence and religious conflict. We were very forward in understanding the North East Passage and expeditions were sent there and the Muscovy Company was established. A famous explorer called Richard Chancellor went by sledge to Moscow to meet Ivan the Terrible and came back with a charter. But the New World was less. I mean, Cabot, after all, had already been there in 1498, but. But really nothing much happened. I think it's one of the great historical mysteries, particularly during the Henrican period, why they didn't do more of this overseas expeditioning. But then, you know, we've got Edward, then Mary, and it was really left till the reign of Queen Elizabeth, before the idea of exploration was being rekindled.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes, it's probably just that Henry's just a bit too preoccupied with his own domestic affairs, isn't it? It's probably as quotidian as that. So what did Raleigh want in his, you know, what did he hope to achieve by establishing this base in the New World?

[Professor Mark Horton]

I think three things. They thought they could pay for the colony by finding gold and copper minerals. They thought they could make lots of money by finding exotic plants like sassafras, for example, which they thought could cure various venereal diseases. They also thought that it was a wonderfully fertile area that they could grow crops in. But I think most importantly, they could see it as a privateering pirate base, because the way in which the winds of the Atlantic work is all the ships then they're returning to Europe have to come up the coast of the Carolinas before crossing across the Atlantic. So if you have a base sticking out into the Atlantic in the Outer Banks, you can sally forth and capture the galleons as they sail past. So I think a mixture of all those motives, but also genuine scientific understanding. So one of the key figures associated with the colony was a man called Thomas Harriot, who subsequently became a major Elizabethan scientist. But he went as a young man there and used the expedition almost as an ethnography to study the local Native American ethnography, the tribes, their habits. And of course, O'Reilly also sent out John White, who was probably a miniaturist in the Elizabethan court, to do paintings of what they found. So there's also a scientific inquiry as well as a purely financial one.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And actually, those paintings by John White and the account by Harriot are really important sources, aren't they? For us, in terms of understanding Native American culture or having any idea about it at all in that period.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Absolutely. So White's paintings have never been bettered or was not bettered until the 19th century and are the standard icon of Native American culture. And I mean, Harriet's account is only a brief account. He was writing a much bigger account that he neither finished or got lost. But it's an extraordinary ethnographic account. And he actually learned Algonkian, the native language, so he could communicate with the Native Americans and learned about the religious practices, their plants, their settlements, their political organization. It's an extraordinary piece of anthropology from the 16th century.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And of course it has that famous line about bullets, this idea, the invisible bullets that actually it seems that when the Europeans appear, the Native Americans are felled by these invisible bullets, which of course we understand to be disease.

[Professor Mark Horton]

That's right, absolutely. So it was very busy. And Harriet, probably assisted by White, did an extraordinary map of the Outer Banks using the most modern up to date triangulation methods. And it is incredibly accurate. I mean, you can literally even today put Harriet's map of obstructed coastline, which runs to 300 miles on top of Google Earth. And it's absolutely spot on. The quality of the cartography that they did is just mind blowing.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

That is astounding. I can't believe that. That's incredible. Yes. So thinking about then, that, that kind of geographical fact, the features of Roanoke island you mentioned earlier that, you know, these are the Outer Banks, they're the bit you come across, you think, oh, this is going to be a good place from which perhaps to go. And Harry, the Spanish tell me about how the features of the island affected the English chance of success.

[Professor Mark Horton]

The Outer Banks consists of a very long sand dune, basically, which is percolated by islands that have been there quite a long time. So Hatteras island, which will appear later on in this discussion, was one such island where people could permanently live, or deer and so forth. And there's a great long strip of sand which now is only 50 yards, 100 yards wide. And every time a hurricane goes by, it breaks up and they have to rebuild the road. It's incredible. One of them. But getting down there is one of the most extraordinary voyages trips you can ever do. And behind the outer band, the barrier islands is a sound which is quite shallow, about 1, 2, 3 meters deep, maximum. And Werner guidance sits in the sound. The barriers has a series of what's called inlets. And to get into the sound behind, you have to go through these inlets. Which are incredibly dangerous. The Atlantic surf is coming in and makes it very, very hard to get inside to be protected. And the outside is incredibly dangerous. There's nowhere to anchor. The continental shelf goes. Right. So ultimately it was the most extraordinary, stupid place. And the story of the Lost Colony is constantly all the ships getting lost and sunk trying to go through these inlets to get into the protection of the sound. So their choice of location was most unfortunate. And they went on to Roanoke island because they perceived that as a place where they could settle, which was reasonably stable, unlike these sandbars out to sea that were constantly being harried by hurricanes.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So let's talk about the expeditions. And the first One is in 1584. What is established or achieved in that expedition?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Okay, so the 1584 expedition was a exploratory expedition. We're pretty certain that White and Harriet might have been on that expedition. Certainly Harriet. And they basically don't settle. They go along the coast, they talk to Native Americans, they're very friendly. And they get this glowing account of how wonderful this place is to come and settle. Land flowing with milk and honey. So these accounts come back. Captain Amadis and Captain Barlow, they bring that this extraordinary prospectus of this is the place we should go. And so on the base of that, Raleigh is able to raise the capital to launch a second expedition in 1586.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And they bring back two Native Americans from that first expedition, don't they? What's the purpose of that?

[Professor Mark Horton]

So they bring them back, they're presented to Queen Elizabeth. One cheese, a manio. Harriet is able to learn Algonkin because they're here. They amaze the Elizabethan court because they're brought back. And this is. So this is the other. This is this exotic world. And of course, it helps add publicity to the venture that these people are friendly. This is a lovely place to go and settle because, look, we've got these great Native Americans here and they're happy and content and so forth. So they then go back in the 85 expedition, which is slightly more uncertain. The first, that major expedition involves soldiers. This is the time. All the conflict in southern Ireland, colonisation of Munster and all that. And that second expedition is a military expedition under the command of Sir Richard Grenville, who is another cousin of Raleigh. The whole big mafia at this time. And that expedition is there to set up a military colony as the first stage for a civilian colony.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And also Grenville, of course, related to the Grenville, who was on the Mary Rose when it went down.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes, It's a small world.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Tudor England indeed.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Unfortunately, Richard Grenville himself gets shipwrecked on his arrival and he doesn't spend long in the colony, only spends about two months, probably with John White at this point. So probably many of the drawings are associated with a period in which Grenville is there. He then hands over the control of the colony to a rather unpleasant man called Ralph Lane, who has experience with the Irish and sets about, I think, brutalizing the Native Americans, let's put no finer point on it. And rapidly creates a bad feeling with the Natives. Harriet is there probably most of the time and goes exploring. So his account contains, goes up all the creeks and sounds behind Roanoke island and he collects all this information while he's there. And they also bring metallurgists with them. And the really only bit of archaeology that's been found from that bit of the colony is the metallurgist workshop, an alchemist workshop, probably, where they brought back ore from these expeditions and tried to test it to see whether it had any gold or not. Of course it didn't. But basically things went from bad to worse and they were able. They ran out of food and fortunately for them, Francis Drake was sailing by 1586. He'd just come back from raiding the Caribbean and he picked them up and brought them home again. And the whole venture was then at that point abandoned. But most people got back to England.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

It's so interesting what you say about Ralph Lane's harsh military leadership. I've been thinking recently about the way in which, whilst completely acknowledging that, you know, history is not about the biography of great men, it does feel more and more as time goes on in my work, the individuals make such a difference. You know, if he had been a better leader, if he had been more diplomatic, if he had negotiated with the Native Americans so that there wouldn't be reduced food supplies, etc. The whole history of America could be different.

[Professor Mark Horton]

That's right. And what if, if Richard Grenville hadn't actually wrecked his ship, the Tiger, on Oaktoke island, he would have then ended up as leading the colony and probably would have been much better rather than his subordinate. And so again, history might well have played out in a different way. But it didn't.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

It didn't. So we, we get to the third expedition and we should just do a little side note on the funding of these expeditions. Who is funding them and how costly are they?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Well, they're extraordinarily costly, first of all, and we know roughly how much they cost. And what went on them, because Richard Haplet wrote a treatise explaining about what a proper expedition needed and included at the end a great long list of all the people you need and all the stores you need and the equipment. I mean, this is millions in modern quantity. So this is a massive undertaking. And of course, it's a prime fund. There's no state support for this and Raleigh literally had to drum up support and he created a charter called the City of Raleigh and Prospectus created its own coat of arms, he added patents, so he was allowed to do that and invested investors, invited investors to put money in because they were going to make their fortune with this colonial venture.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

It's so interesting, isn't it, the way you've just described it. It's such a sort of confidence trick, really. Here we are, don't worry, we've got the logo and we'll build the business. You know, come put your money in.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Cut your bunny in. And people did thinking they were going to make an absolute fortune. And of course, the third expedition, that idea was a more of a civilian expedition. So it had craftsmen, it had women, critically, it had young men and almost children, actually. And it has series, obviously, a series of skilled artisans that went out there to create this colony, this utopia. And many were drawn from London and the Home Counties, we think, and probably they might have had, you know, on the hard times and so forth, and saw this as a way of making their fortune and escaping England. True to England.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

A question. There's a lovely line from a man called John Spark, who was sailing with Sir John Hawkins in the 1560s, talking about the French colonists in Florida. And he says that they desired to live by the sweat of other men's brows. And I always wonder whether some of the early failures of the American colonists came from the fact that everybody went there wanting to becoming lords and not wanting to do the hard work of making it work. But you're describing a, you know, a number of artisans and people who do have crafts. Do you think that sentiment applies to the English colonies or am I being harshly unfair?

[Professor Mark Horton]

I think certainly they just apply for the later ones. And I think if we look at Jamestown and so forth and the difficulties that Jamestown had, and we could maybe go away to have a discussion about this fact. They ended up practically starving to death in 1609. They were only rescued by the skin of their teeth as they were literally sailing out, trying to go home. You know, a lot of these early colonies failed because people were not prepared to do the hard work. I've done lots of work on the Scottish colony in Panama in Darien, where again we actually have the contemporary letters that show exactly that was what was going on. They had an idealistic view of what it was all about, but when reality came, they realized this was a horror story.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So what do we know about the civilian colony under John White? Do we have any sense of what they established?

[Professor Mark Horton]

So they come in and we think they're probably trying to get for the Chesapeake, but they don't. They go onto Roanoke island, which is unsuitable for all sorts of reasons. The inlet is really hard, but they get dumped there. And one of the issues about these colonies, they realise that the fleet that takes them there then goes back home again, so they're sort of abandoned and that's it. So where they choose to settle is absolutely critical because they can't really necessarily move on anywhere else. We don't quite know where they established themselves, whether they reestablished them on the remains of lanes, forts that he constructed, or whether actually they built a new settlement somewhere else. I feel that they built a new settlement in another location rather than reusing lanes, but we found neither, so we can't be definitive. And all the land is largely owned by the National Park Service, which makes it hard to investigate it. So we think that they come, they build obviously a palisaded enclosure, because John White describes this, and they established them, they built houses and so forth on Roanoke island, probably by a creek where they can bring. They have what's called pinnaces, which are sort of small boats, 20 tons, something like that, that they can get around with. That's what they're left with. And the moment came for the fleet to go home. And so they all said, oh, we don't have enough food, how are we going to survive? We better send somebody back to say we need more food. And they chose John White, the governor, to go back and thought that he would have enough sway with Raleigh or whatever with investors to come back. He protested and said, no, I'm not going to go. But they insisted that he went. Or that's according to his narrative.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes, I was thinking we know that because that's what he said.

[Professor Mark Horton]

That's right. But critically, he came with his daughter Elena and his son in law, Anesthesius, and they had a child called Virginia. And she plays an important part in this story. She's the first born English person born in America and assumes massive historical significance in subsequent Centuries. So he abandons his daughter, his granddaughter and the colonists and sails back in late 1587 back to Devon, wanting more food to come back. And, of course, where are we in.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

1587, 1588, just on the brink of the Armada. So, I mean, abandon is a strong word. I mean, presumably he was trying to do his best by his family, as far as we know. But of course, what you've just mentioned, the date, is so significant. So presumably, geopolitics, the conflict between England and Spain really affects his ability to return and resupply.

[Professor Mark Horton]

That's right. There's a complete ban on ships leaving English waters because they're all needed to defend the Armada. He does make one attempt, he has to turn back. And then 1588 and the armada happens and so forth. And he, Raleigh, is also himself beginning to lose interest in the colony as well. He's born El Dorado and so forth. The sort of post Armada period is really hard to organize a second expedition to go and rescue them, but to eventually manage to persuade basically a privateer to take him back in 1590. And of course, privateer has other agendas, which is to find, you know, ships to attack, still at war with Spain during this period. But he does agree to take White back with provisions back to Roanoke.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And obviously, if you've got a concern one year that there's not going to be enough food, returning three years later with provisions is nice, but really not going to necessarily help that much. What does he find?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Well, first of all, he sails past Cape Hatteras, which is Croatoan Island. He actually drops anchor for the night in Croatian Island. But at this point, he is none the wise. He doesn't know who's where, they're there. He then sails up the coast and it's very bad conditions, there's a heavy surf and so forth, but he manages somehow to get through the inlet. The ship stays out to sea. He goes into the inlet in a small boat and lands on Roanoke Island. And we have a description of him hunting then for the colonists to where they are. And he walks across the colony. He finds a fire which had been burnt. He has high hopes that might be them, but this isn't. There's nothing there. And then he walks along the. Probably the east side of Roanoke island and finds a tree, one of these oak trees with the initial CRO carved into it. He then climbs down from the sand dunes and then finds the palisades, the ruined palisades of the colony with the word Croatoan written down. The side of one of the stakes. Now, he was very excited about this because the prearranged signal, this was what's called a secret token, that if underneath the letters there was a cross, then they'd left in distress. But if there's no cross, they'd left voluntarily to this place that they'd marked on Croatoan. So Croatoan was Hassrus island, what's now Hasrus island, and was the ancestral homeland of Mania, who was one of the Indians that was brought back to Elizabethan court, who was their friend and protector. And almost certainly the Croatoan Indians were allies of the Elizabethans, and so it was a natural place for them to go. There was a nice island. There was lots of deer and fields and so forth there. But also it was the bit that Cape Hatteras, that sticks out into the Atlantic and was the place that any rescue fleet would spot. And so they could climb a sand dune, light a fire, and hopefully they could be rescued. So it was a very logical place for them to go. So there was White with the information that they were all safe on Croaton island, which now Hasrus Island.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And what does he do with this information?

[Professor Mark Horton]

He goes to his captain and says, can we go back? And the captain says, no, the wind's the wrong direction. I've already lost, you know, a couple of upturned boats and some of my crew trying to get ashore. It's too dangerous. There's too much wind blowing, and I want to go and capture some Spanish ships anyway, because that's the primary purpose of the expedition. So even though he knows that his daughter is only 30 miles away on Hashras island, nonetheless, he had set sail back across the Atlantic and leave them abandoned.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

It's so interesting. Of course, you know, he could have made a decision at that point to say, well, I will make my own way, or something. I don't know. You know, I don't know. It's amazing that he can turn away. I understand that the captain has his own priorities, but. But how extraordinary to do that journey and not do those 30 miles.

[Professor Mark Horton]

I know, and it's just extraordinary. But he was kind of by himself, so he. Who would have protected him? Nature. How would he have got there? How would he board a canoe, all that kind of thing. I mean, it's all those imponderables. And of course, we only know that from a letter that White wrote back to Richard Hatlu from Ireland, actually, where he settled in 1592, and he described Luna, literally, the heartache of abandoning his family and the colonists on Croton Island.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Absolutely. So tell me then, what theories exist around the colonists fate on the basis of the clues you've described?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Okay, so and so it seems to me and you know we got the testimony twice, the CRO and the curator, and so there should be no doubt, yes, that that's probably where they ended up. However, there's a sort of strong histographical tradition in America for creating a mystery. Partly, that mystery starts in 1607 with the Jamestown colonists. Obviously they're Jacobeans at this point and they make cursory inquiries of what had happened to the lost colonists or the abandoned colonists, and they're told that they will be murdered by the local Indian chiefs. And they didn't actually bother to go down to Croatoan island or anything to check them out. They accepted the fact that they'd be murdered and that Was that really we know the next, as it were, point at which we actually have contact or potential historical contact is a man called John Lawson who travels down the Outer Banks and describes people who could read from the book who wear European clothes on Hatteras Island. And he describes how they have this memory of a ghost ship called the rally that brought them there. So this is in 1702. So there's this sort of old tradition four generations later. But the real issue about the colony really gets going in 1937 because a playwright called Paul Green writes a play called the Lost Colony which is staged an open air theater on Roanoke island next to the supposed site of Fort Raleigh, which is probably a 18th century French Indian fort, but that's by and by. And they have an annual and it's still going on every summer this play. And Paul Green was a quite enlightened gentleman really in for the 1930s. And he. The last part of the play is them leaving to Croatoan island and living happily ever after. And they kind of get lost at that point, but. And he called the play the Lost Colony that then created this idea of this lost community in American origin myth. Unfortunately, this was too much for many of the highway. Racist, frankly. Racist American historians, Tudor historians who saw this as impossible, that how would their descendants of these Elizabethans ended up as Native Americans, in particular Virginia Dare, who was this beautiful, wonderful, virginal girl. Yes. How could she end up marrying a Native American? How could the descendant. This is the high point of miscegenation laws and so forth against the whole political order. And so the Lost Colony play was at the time very controversial. And so alternative theories then were populated about how the colonists hadn't actually gone to curtail an island at all, but actually had been massacred by the savages, as they put it.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Oh my word, Mark, this is extraordinary. So actually what you're saying is the entire idea that this is a lost colony is a racist fiction about what happened in the late 16th century.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes. And so what then happens is that they plant a stone where they think they were massacred way up at the Albemarle in play called Bertie Conduct. This is in which they record how all the colonists were massacred by the savages as it's described and describes. The only one surviving is Eleanor, who is obviously survives to do the stone, but everyone else is killed apart from seven other colonists.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

You've got to have somebody there to.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Do the do the inscription, had to do the description. So how they're buried a little way away and this stone was planted in 1937, two months after the play had started, in order to create an alternative narrative. We know who planted this stone because of the extraordinary detective work of a friend and colleague historian from Oregon called Melissa Darby, who's just published, eventually managed to get the full story published. It got rejected by every California historical journal in the place because it identified the leading and most famous Tudor historian from Berkeley who was the proponent and the forger who created this stone. Impossible, but rather bad Elizabethan.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

This is extraordinary. This is absolutely extraordinary. What a finding. What a finding.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes. So the stone. And we can identify a little coterie of these historians from Berkeley who set about planting the stone and then trying to palm it off to Emory University, who were too savvy to actually take it on. It's now in a small liberal arts college nearby. And subsequently, it even gets worse than this. After the first stone was found, then Eleanor obviously had to have a career. So they then planted stones all the way to Georgia, about 21 of them. They were rapidly proved to be fake because they were made with a mechanical drill. But the darestone, until Melissa published the definitive argument of why it was only two months ago, was widely accepted to be original.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Wow, this is groundbreaking indeed.

[Professor Mark Horton]

You've heard it here on your podcast. We've heard it here.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So by contrast, do we have any legitimate archaeological evidence that suggests assimilation, that suggests that the Roanoke colonists did go to Croaton island and join the tribe there?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes, well, that's exactly what we found. So we've been working there since 2009 on a series of Native American villages on the island that date to the 16th century. And of course, that's the place where you will find the evidence. There might be a survivor's camp that they might have built initially, but I think rapidly, like all these establishment, they just move into the pretty women and into the villages. And so what we find is two sets of evidence. We first find evidence of their activities in the late 16th century. So we have radiocarbon dated evidence, including some of their material. They've come from England, like buns of copper, for example, Nuremberg tokens, late 16th century Nuremberg tokens, ceramics, and so forth. But the most compelling radiocarbon dated 16th century material is a substance called hammerscale. This is the product of blacksmithing. And obviously Native American didn't have the technology to do blacksmithing. And so what we found is them actually making iron, working iron. They would have brought bar iron with them. And they were putting these into nails to presumably build huts, houses for themselves. Implements, that kind of thing. So that is a smoking gun, if you like, that they're there in these Native American villages making iron, because Native Americans certainly wouldn't know how to do it. That's in the late 16th century. We've got the smoking gun evidence that they're there and assimilated. But the story gets better than that, because these sites then go through the 17th century, and there we find them exactly as John Lawson describes them at the end of the century. So we find European dress fittings and pins and so forth. We find them making firearms, making gunpowder, shooting deer. So we have the musket balls, but we also have the evidence of the breakage on the leg bones of the deer that have been shot by firearms. We have them reworking Elizabethan material into arrowheads and so forth, drinking glasses and drinking vessels, which are then being reworked in this exquisite way. And we have evidence of trade. So the copper sheet is coming in from Jamestown. They're reworking it into figurines and so forth, that they're then trading with other native groups on the mainland. And so they've got shears and they can work copper. So they are a society that's Native American living in Native American houses, but on the other hand, have European technology and European clothes.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

This is an extraordinary revelation. So great, isn't it? It is absolutely great. What incredible work. So questions are coming to me that I want to ask you about it. So this idea about it being a lost colony, do we have anything that relates to that terminology with regard to Raleigh, with regard to John White? You know, do we have any sense that they felt the colony was lost in the late 16th century? Or, you know, what's the narrative around it at the time?

[Professor Mark Horton]

No, not at all. No, no, no. The idea of the lost colony is entirely made up in the 1930s by Paul Green and the playwright.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

This is incredible. And so that turns everything on its head, but it also turns on its head what we think about subsequent English colonization efforts and what they might have learned or not learned from Roanoke Colony or Croatan as it now is.

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes, absolutely. So one of the really interesting thing is, I mean, you know, as a Tudor historian, you know that Raleigh and his call were very much into humanism and White and how its narratives are very sympathetic to Native American culture and understanding the other and seeing it all with the Garden of Eden and are very sympathetic. The subsequent history of English colonization is one of utter brutalism, of one of extermination, land grabbing, and ultimately Manifest Destiny as it then becomes in the 19th century, would history have been different if the Elizabethans had been successful rather than those Stuarts under John Smith and the Jamestown colony? Would actually a different narrative of English engagement in Native American society have played out as clearly it played out on Croatoan island for the next hundred and one hundred fifty years rather than the brutal story associated with Jamestown, but particularly after the great massacre in 1619, it.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Is absolutely turning history on its head. And I'm very grateful to Cheryl Cleveland for having asked the question and coming to be able to talk to you about it. Because what we have learned from today is that this is all a fable, that yes, the Lost Colony was never lost at all. And actually the history of America, of Virginia Dare, the first English child born in America, is the history of America today, which is assimilation of peoples with each other. Yes.

[Professor Mark Horton]

And can I just add that to make sure that to make this contemporary relevant in all this. Okay, so in terms of the house, the right wing, extreme right wing, Americans, supremacists and so forth, their website, which closed down last year, is vjair.com so Virginia Dare is seen as the, so icon of, dare I say it, the MAGA movement. And the whole idea behind the thinking in the 1930s was one of racism and one of isolationism and an isolationism that then of course delayed America's participation in the Second World War because that was the prevailing trope at the time. It was called dunanite history that had very, a lot of influences in terms of policymakers in Washington. And so the idea this white American, this white girl who was slaughtered by the savages, was part of a story in the 1930s, but also has echoes, very strong echoes today in modern Trump America.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And actually probably the descendants of that white girl who may have had a relationship and children with a Native American man were probably. This is all extrapolation, this is all speculation, but what we know of 19th century American history is about the massacre of the Native Americans. So the savagery was elsewhere, wasn't it?

[Professor Mark Horton]

Yes, by the English.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Well, I hope listeners were sitting down during this episode because our entire worldview has now changed as a result of my conversation with you. Mark, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing these brand new insights. What a revelation it has been. Thank you so much.

[Professor Mark Horton]

It's been a delight.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History hit. Thank you also to my researcher Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a [e-mail] and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on not just the Tudors from History Hit.

[Professor Mark Horton]

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[Professor Mark Horton]

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