Podcast Summary: Not Just the Tudors — "Rise of Thomas More"
Release Date: June 2, 2025
Title: Rise of Thomas More
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Dr. Joanne Paul, Honorary Associate Professor in Intellectual History at the University of Sussex
Introduction
In the episode titled "Rise of Thomas More," Professor Suzannah Lipscomb delves into the multifaceted life of one of Tudor England's most enigmatic figures, Thomas More. Joined by Dr. Joanne Paul, an esteemed historian and author of Thomas: A Life and Death in Tudor England, the discussion unpacks More's complex legacy, his rise within Henry VIII's court, and the factors that shaped his character and career.
Thomas More's Mixed Legacy
Professor Lipscomb opens the conversation by highlighting the dual portrayals of Thomas More in popular culture: the virtuous "More of Conscience" from A Man for All Seasons and the antagonistic figure in Wolf Hall. Dr. Paul explains that this dichotomy stems from posthumous interpretations influenced by the religious conflicts of the 16th century.
Dr. Joanne Paul [05:12]: "He gets used and picked up by both sides. His legacy is weaponized in a way by both the Catholics and the Protestants."
These differing views reflect the polarized environment in which More lived, ultimately painting him as either a saintly hero or a brutal persecutor.
Early Life and Family Background
Dr. Paul provides a detailed account of Thomas More's humble beginnings. Born in London near Cripplegate to a family of modest means—his father was a lawyer who had previously been a baker—More's upbringing was far from the aristocratic image often associated with him.
Dr. Joanne Paul [07:32]: "He was educated at the only free grammar school in London, because his parents couldn't afford the fees anywhere else."
This background instilled in More a strong work ethic and a deep understanding of rhetoric and Latin, foundational skills that propelled his future career.
Education and Rise to Prominence
At the age of 12, More was apprenticed to John Morton, the Archbishop of Canterbury and Lord Chancellor. This position, secured by his father's legal connections, provided More with invaluable exposure to the political and scholarly circles of the time.
Dr. Joanne Paul [09:51]: "He was a servant, he wasn't a ward or have any privileged position like that. But he was keen to learn and absorb everything around him."
Following his apprenticeship, More attended Oxford University, where his humanist education flourished. His friendship with Erasmus began amidst intellectual exchanges that occasionally sparked tension but ultimately influenced both men profoundly.
Friendship with Erasmus
The episode recounts the famous meeting in 1499 between More, Erasmus, and the young Prince Henry (later Henry VIII). Despite an initially rocky interaction—Erasmus's lack of prepared material impressing the young prince negatively—the friendship endured.
Dr. Joanne Paul [11:26]: "Erasmus speaks, as he often does, in very effusive terms about More, that he loves him unto death."
Their relationship was a blend of mutual respect and scholarly debate, shaping More's humanist perspectives.
Humanism and the Active vs. Contemplative Life
A significant topic discussed is More's grappling with the Renaissance debate between the active (negotium) and contemplative (otium) lives. Influenced by both ancient philosophies and Christian teachings, More advocated for a balanced approach—engaging in public service while maintaining personal virtue.
Dr. Joanne Paul [14:20]: "More advocates for and lives a sort of active life, though he would at least suggest that there is contemplation in that."
This philosophical stance was evident in his career choices and personal life, balancing his roles as a family man and a public servant.
Entry into Henry VIII's Court
By 1509, More was a successful lawyer and a rising figure in London’s civic landscape. His participation in Henry VIII's coronation included writing a laudatory ode that, while flattering, hinted at the potential future challenges of royal authority.
Dr. Joanne Paul [16:32]: "He presents it to Henry VIII. It is very laudatory, flattering to Henry and to his queen Catherine... but it does contain seeds of warning and expectation."
This early involvement set the stage for More's influential role in the king's court, blending scholarly insight with political acumen.
Personal Life and Tragedy
In 1511, tragedy struck when More's wife, Jane Colt Moore, succumbed to the sweating sickness, leaving him a widower with four young children. His swift remarriage to Alice, a well-connected widow, sparked controversy but was likely driven by the necessity of managing a bustling household.
Dr. Joanne Paul [25:27]: "Alice was someone with mother wit... he marries her very quickly because of the need for someone to manage a very busy household."
This period also saw More's deepening involvement in civic duties, including negotiating trade terms and serving as a Member of Parliament.
Creation and Interpretation of Utopia
One of the episode's highlights is the exploration of More's seminal work, Utopia. Dr. Paul describes it as a satirical yet insightful critique of contemporary society, blending idealism with pointed commentary.
Dr. Joanne Paul [28:16]: "It is a critique of the society in which he lives and the way in which artificial things are valued more than real, natural things."
Utopia serves both as a reflection of More's humanist ideals and as a subtle challenge to the social and political norms of his time.
Service Under Henry VIII and the Reformation
As Henry VIII's reign progressed, More became embroiled in the religious debates that defined the era. His scholarly prowess was instrumental in Henry's initial defense against Martin Luther's criticisms.
Dr. Joanne Paul [40:00]: "Thomas More is the perfect candidate... he knows how to argue. He's got enough theology to engage with him."
However, More's involvement also exposed him to the turbulent shifts of the Reformation, setting the stage for his eventual fall from grace.
Patronage and Depiction in Art
More's patronage of the arts, particularly his support of Hans Holbein the Younger, underscored his commitment to humanist culture. The family portrait commissioned by More provides a vivid glimpse into his domestic life and social standing.
Dr. Joanne Paul [45:33]: "It's a portrait of family life and a portrait of what More has achieved, his standing in the world at his 50th birthday."
These artworks not only immortalize More's legacy but also emphasize the balance he maintained between personal and public life.
Conclusion and Outlook
The episode concludes by setting the stage for the next installment, which will examine Thomas More's downfall and martyrdom. Professor Lipscomb teases a deeper dive into the moral and political conflicts that led to his execution in 1535.
Professor Suzannah Lipscomb [47:53]: "Thomas More seemed to rise and rise. But on the 6th of July, 1535, he would be led out to a higher place yet, and an undesirable one."
Listeners are encouraged to tune in next time to explore the final chapters of More's life, his unwavering conscience, and his enduring legacy.
For those intrigued by the intricate life of Thomas More and the rich tapestry of Tudor history, "Rise of Thomas More" offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration, seamlessly blending scholarly insights with captivating narratives.