Dr. Joanne Paul (3:46)

It's wonderful to be back.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (3:48)

Now, you have written about the Dudley family so brilliantly. As one with ambition in its blood. How true was that for Robert?

Dr. Joanne Paul (3:58)

I think Robert really epitomizes the ambition of the Dudley family, far more so than his grandfather, Edmund Dudley, who was executed for treason in 1510, or his father, John Dudley, the Duke of Northumberland, who was also executed in 1553. Robert plays the game better than his predecessors and I think has his eye on the prize much more clearly than they did. Edmund Dudley, for instance, was simply scapegoated really for the policies of Henry vii. And John Dudley was interested in putting his daughter in law on the throne. Robert, though, very clearly wants to marry the Queen. He wants to become King of England, essentially. And so I think his ambition is much more clear. And there is a self interestedness to Robert Dudley, whereas I think some other members of his family. It's much more wound up with service to the crown. I think Robert Dudley is in service to himself quite a bit.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:14)

You mentioned there, that legacy of treason. What was Robert's involvement in the events that saw the crowning of the one we remember as the Nine Days Queen, Lady Jane Grey? And how did he navigate the political fallout from his father's execution?

Dr. Joanne Paul (5:32)

Robert was intimately involved in those events. The day after the death of Edward vi, it was Robert who first rode out from London at the head of troops in order to capture Mary and bring her back to London. It was phrased in much kinder terms. I think he was going to escort her back to London, that sort of thing. But essentially he was there to capture her and bring her in. Mary stayed one step ahead of Robert throughout she had known his movements and the plans of Jane and the Duke of Northumberland. And so Robert never caught up with her and he was arrested. But he was really meant to be at the forefront of this effort and to bring Mary in. He ends up convicted of treason and imprisoned in the Tower along with his brothers. When he's released, it's a long road to restoration. And in the end, it's only he and one elder brother, Ambrose, who survive those years. Several other brothers die, either from illness on the battlefield or execution. And so Robert has to make a lot of friends. It's not popular to be friends with the Dudleys. One great advantage they have is that Mary marries Philip of Spain. And Philip of Spain and his courtiers are not very popular either. So they need young English men like the Dudleys to support them, to participate publicly with them in tournaments and courtly performances. And the Dudleys are only too happy to do that. Later on, Robert Dudley refers to Philip II of Spain as the savior of his family. And in many ways, that's true. It's that alliance that really smooths the path for the Dudleys to come back into the court and into positions of favor.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (7:27)

And we remember him, of course, because of that connection to Elizabeth. So do we know how they first met and how their friendship grew?

Dr. Joanne Paul (7:36)

There's all sorts of suggestions, rumors, some of which Robert himself propagated, that they had known each other and were intimate, really were confidants to each other, even as children. He tells a story of Elizabeth at 8 years old, confiding in him that she would never marry. This is a story that he tells well into her reign, probably as a way of explaining why she hasn't married him, and also maybe dissuading the suits of some of her foreign suitors as well. So whether or not that ever happened, we don't know. Certainly they would have encountered each other, given his father's position, rising position under the reign of Edward vi, they would have encountered each other at court. But it's worth remembering that Robert was well down the pecking order from someone like Princess Elizabeth. And so the interactions that they would have had probably would have been very formal, probably would have been very distant. They might have shared a joke here or there, but the opportunities for them to really get to know each other would. Would have been few.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (8:41)

How did that change when Elizabeth became queen in 1558? How quickly did he rise with her?

Dr. Joanne Paul (8:49)

Very quickly indeed. Elizabeth decides, as she's putting together her list of those she wants around her, that Robert Dudley's going to be one of those people in the initial list that's compiled by William Cecil, her secretary, who had involvement with the Dudley family earlier in the reign of Edward vi. He doesn't include Robert Dudley and in fact, he puts him, I think, on embassy to France. He wants him far away, which maybe indicates that already, by that point, there was some connection between them. Whereas Elizabeth adds him to the list and has him as master of the horse, which puts him in close physical proximity to the Queen. Not only is that an indication of maybe something physical between them, but. But more importantly, physical proximity to the person of the monarch is power. And so she's putting him in a very powerful position. And we have a great visual of that in the illustrations of her coronation. When we eventually get past all the lords and everyone else to Elizabeth, carried in a litter, we see right behind her are Ambrose and Robert Dudley. They are in the spotlight essentially on her coronation day. It's a real indication, I think, of the favor that she's trying to bestow upon these two Dudley brothers. But really the focus is on Robert Dudley.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (10:15)

And do you have any sense of why she puts him in that position, why he is picked for that important role?

Dr. Joanne Paul (10:24)

I think there is a deep affinity, perhaps a detraction between them. I have tried to speculate about the physical nature of their relationship. That is really impossible to do. The speculation ends up being pretty groundless at the end of the day. But obviously there is a great affection between them. As you said in your introduction, we know that this lasts throughout his life. He dies before she does, and she's devastated when he does die. She depends on him for counsel, for advice. I think she depends on him for flattery. I think she depends on him for that sense of her own beauty and self worth. She depends on him, too, as a courtier, as someone with some military experience, as someone who brings culture to her court. And I think she really enjoys his company. His account books are filled with gifts. He's giving her, picnics they have in the park. It does look like he's courting her. And they are spending a lot of time together. And very quickly in her reign, this is commented upon by ambassadors that she's in his rooms day and night, that they are excessively close to each other in a way that is a bit unusual.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (11:43)

So the account books are an interesting source that partially answers this question. But when it comes to their relationship, so much of what we have is this layer upon layer of gossip and rumor, ambassadors saying things. But how do you go about peeling those layers apart? Can we get at, quote, unquote, the truth?

Dr. Joanne Paul (12:05)

It's A very difficult thing to do. I had this quandary when I approached these chapters of the book. On the one hand, the rumor itself is worth paying attention to. These rumors were tools at the time. And the rumors that Robert, and particularly his sister, Mary Sidney, were spreading tell us a lot about their intentions and what they were trying to do in the court. There's a sense in which they are manipulating people through these rumors. The account books are factual in that sense. They're not going to give us rumor. They're going to tell us what actually happened. And that's very useful. We can use letters to a certain extent. Obviously, those are going to have a sort of rhetorical flair about them. You know very well that these letters always involve a certain kind of language that isn't straightforward, especially to a modern reader. That being said, they do give us little hints. For instance, Robert continually uses his symbol of the eyes. Elizabeth nicknamed many of her favorite courtiers, Robert included, and he was her eyes. And in his letters, he often puts little eyebrows above his O's. We can turn to things like that. The ambassador reports as well. Some of them do present scenes that we can think about. How many of those actually happened, it's difficult to know. But some of them have the ring of truth about them. For instance, when Elizabeth, sick of all of the rumors that she has married Dudley or is about to marry Dudley, publicly declares that he is too mean, too humble, too below her to ever marry. That has the ring of truth to it, that she would stage that performance and publicly put him down in order to quash those rumors. So there are bits that we can get to. But personally, I'm very interested in the way Robert, his family, were using and producing rumor for their own ends.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (14:05)

Yes, that's fascinating. And it's also interesting to see the role of spectacle here in if Elizabeth is making a scene of him being too mean a person for her to marry, that says absolutely nothing about what Elizabeth feels. It says about what she thinks is politic, to be put out into the public sphere.

Dr. Joanne Paul (14:23)

Yes. Another, I think, very telling moment is when Elizabeth comes down with smallpox in 1562, and she's really at death's door. The council is assembled. Everyone is quite panicked about what's going to happen if she dies. There isn't a clear heir. She's very young, so nothing has been put together to secure the succession after her death. And based on the evidence that we have, it seems that Elizabeth, in the midst of this illness, decides that Robert Dudley should be regent should she die. And gives him an annual income of, I think it's £20,000 a year. It's something astronomical at the time. And Robert, he hasn't become Earl of Leicester at this point. He's not even a member of the council. They have to quickly give him the oath and get him onto the council to even make this plausible. Now, of course, it all comes to nothing. Elizabeth recovers, but this is the order that she gives. And so it suggests a kind of trust there. It suggests a favoritism that maybe goes beyond that she showed to other favorites and a closeness, I think, between them, a closeness that does not accord with the expectations of the time.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:44)

This is interesting because this is in 1562, two years after the sudden death of his wife Amy. And I would just like to examine the extent to which you think that that dismantled any real possibility of their marriage, of him marrying the Queen. And then perhaps we can start to think about his relationship with one of his great rivals at court, William Cecil.

Dr. Joanne Paul (16:09)

It is really fascinating because on the one hand I have made the argument and I think it's true, that the death of Amy Robsart Dudley really makes it impossible for Elizabeth to marry him. He is implicated, at least in the court of public opinion, in the death of his wife. It's deemed an accident by the jury, but all of Christendom's convinced he had something to do with it. And the idea that Elizabeth would then marry someone who killed his wife or had someone kill his wife scandalizes and really panics a lot of people. The English ambassador to France talks about his ears glowing with all the gossip. And much later, William Cecil writes a list of reasons that Dudley shouldn't marry the Queen. And one of the, the top reasons is that he is infamed by the death of his wife. I would say that the real height of rumor and possibility about Robert marrying Elizabeth is in 1562, especially the first half of 1562, she gives that public performance of putting him down later in 1562, funnily enough, right before she comes down with smallpox and names him regents. So she's spit all over the place. The Spanish ambassador is convinced they have already been married, states that, and then is formally investigated for spreading this rumor that they're already married. In the immediate aftermath, it doesn't seem to put a damper on this possibility that they might get married. How much people actually believed it, how much they were just enjoying the scandal of it all, as we do today with celebrity couples and rumors and everything else. It's difficult to say it's worth keeping in mind that all of this is happening while she's entertaining the suit of Eric of Sweden, which is a real possibility in a lot of people's minds as well. So it is difficult to say, but I think from the perspective of now as a historian looking back, it would not have been possible for Elizabeth to have married him. And she is just too bright to have married someone who was that implicated, who was that sort of stained by the death of his first wife, never mind all those generations of treason, which is still fresh in people's minds. It wasn't that long since the succession crisis of 1553 and his imprisonment and conviction for treason.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:41)

Yes, it's within a decade when they're thinking about these questions.

Dr. Joanne Paul (18:44)

Exactly.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:45)

And what part do you think William Cecil has in the scandal and what is going on there really? Are the differences between Dudley and Cecil simply a matter of competing ambitions or something more?

Dr. Joanne Paul (18:59)

I think the relationship between Robert Dudley and William Cecil is a very interesting one and one that I'd love to spend more time on, because one of the things I hadn't realized when I started working on the Dudleys for House of Dudley was how far back that relationship goes, that William Cecil was employed first by the Seymours and then switches over to the Dudleys. And John Dudley, in fact, writes some of his most revealing letters to William Cecil. So Cecil is right there in it. He knows Robert as a youth before Elizabeth comes to the throne, before all of this happens in the 1560s. So they have this sort of deeper, longer connection that I think we tend to realize. Cecil is certainly against Robert being that close to the queen, as are many people who are concerned for Elizabeth's welfare. There's a famous episode that an ambassador reports where Kat Ashley, her former governess and still good friend, apparently falls upon her knees and begs Elizabeth to distance herself from Robert Dudley, not only for what it might do to Elizabeth, but to the realm as well. And so Cecil is part of this group. Wouldn't quite go so far to say, faction, but this group at court who's very against Dudley, they end up patching a lot of this up later in the reign. They come together on a lot of issues, mostly to do with advancing Protestantism, on putting down Catholics. They're definitely in accord on the question of Mary, Queen of Scots. So this sort of dissipates as it becomes less and less likely that Robert will marry the queen. But at that point in the 1560s, they're absolutely at loggerheads. Robert, however, does acknowledge how important Cecil is. And there's this really interesting letter that he writes to him right after the death of his wife. He writes in desperation and almost an acknowledgement that Cecil has won in this situation, that Cecil is the one who's going to get him back in. He writes to him that he feels as if he were in a dream, and that he's too far, he says, from the place he ought to be, which is the court. He talks about his bondage and he wishes to be at liberty, which is all rich, when his wife has just died. He's concerned about his position. But it is to Cecil that he opens up in this way and begs to be let back in.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (23:01)

Now, you've mentioned there that Cecil and Robert saw eye to eye in terms of religious policy. What do we know about Robert Dudley's faith?

Dr. Joanne Paul (23:09)

Certainly Robert was what we would now identify as Protestant. He advances the Protestant cause. He advocates for interventions on behalf of Protestants on the Continent, for instance, whether it's the Huguenots in France, it's his brother who ends up going into France. But he argues for some intervention, and he leads troops in the Netherlands to defend Dutch Protestants against the Spanish, who of course are Catholic. He initially tries to facilitate a relationship and a meeting between Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I, but as that relationship deteriorates, he is in favor of the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots. He agrees that she's too dangerous, both in herself and as a figurehead of the Catholic cause. But he's not very overt or performative in his religion itself. It's his brother Ambrose, who is an early Puritan, really, and embraces many of those principles. Robert is far too lavish to be considered a Puritan, but he is, with his brother, supporting Protestant clerics and those who are trying to push the English Church further in that direction.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (24:27)

In 1564, he was raised to the rank of nobility and made Earl of Leicester. What did that title mean for him in terms of consolidating his power?

Dr. Joanne Paul (24:37)

That was very important for him and in many ways was an anomalous thing for Elizabeth to do. Many of those whom she restores after the reign of her sister, she does very early on, she restores their titles. She doesn't restore Robert's older brother to Earl of Warwick until, I think it's 1560, possibly 61. So a few years into her reign. At that time, though, she allows Robert to use the emblem associated with the Earldom of Warwick, the Baron Ragged staff, which he does a lot, which really is his brother's emblem, but they share it, which is very unusual for the time when he is made Earl of Leicester. There is no precedent in his family for that title. There is no reason why both brothers would be earls. So it is a very sort of special thing that she does. There's two theories as to why, maybe three theories as to why she does this. The one I think, that gets bandied around the most is that at the time, she's suggesting Robert Dudley as a husband for Mary Queen of Scots, which does seem to be the case, that both Dudley brothers actually, at various points are suggested. How much either queen was taking that seriously, I think can be questioned. Mary Queen of Scots thought it was hilarious. She joked about each of them having a Dudley, but she was sorry that she might end up with Ambrose because he was the less handsome of the two. She would have much rather had Robert, but she knew that Elizabeth didn't want Ambrose either, or Ambrose. So that's one theory is it has to do with that. The other theory is that she's elevating him so that she can marry him. That's probably less likely, though still possible she might be keeping him as an option. And then the final theory is just that she likes him, she's trying to defend him against his detractors, she's trying to reward him, she bestows quite a lot of lands and money and titles on him throughout her reign. And so this is just part of that, that is A thing that she has the power to do and does. So probably, as with many decisions that Elizabeth makes, there's more than one reason, and it's a little bit of all of these things.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (27:01)

Now, skipping ahead slightly, a decade later or just over, we have the great celebrations at Kenilworth during one of her summer progresses. And the theme of many of those entertainments is marriage. Is this a last ditch attempt by Dudley to persuade Elizabeth to marry him, do you think?

Dr. Joanne Paul (27:21)

That's certainly one reading of it. And the pageants, the performances that are held, often have this tone of appealing to her as a romantic mistress who has cast Robert aside and left him in doleful darkness. And so it's easy, I think, to view all of this, these 19 days of festivities, extravagant festivities, as an extended marriage proposal. I think Robert is like Elizabeth in that he had more than one reason for doing something. I don't think he would have minded if at that point she'd turned around and gone, oh, okay, sure. But I think far more likely is a more recent theory that's been put forward that actually Robert's using the Kenilworth celebrations to position himself in a new way next to Elizabeth, not as her husband or potential husband, but as a very special sort of favorite. They are a sort of power couple, but without the marriage. And this is something that Elizabeth Goldring has put forward in her marvelous book on Robert's art and patronage. And she focuses on the portraits that are unveiled at the Kenilworth celebrations. And they are paired portraits of Robert and Elizabeth, but they're not paired portraits in the sense that you see with married couples, where they're facing each other, they're both facing the same direction. And so it's this sort of new branding, if you will, on Robert and Elizabeth, this new way of seeing them that fits in many ways a new phase in Elizabeth's life. She is reaching the age where it's unlikely that she is going to marry and have children, though she continues to entertain it for a number of years after that. And Robert himself may at that point have slightly changed his own priorities because he has at that point had a son with a mistress and may be already considering taking a different life.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:29)

And he does indeed take a second wife. How did that marriage see him once again at the centre of scandal?

Dr. Joanne Paul (29:39)

Robert really knows how to pick him. His mistress, with whom he has an illegitimate son, is a cousin of Elizabeth, as she is a Howard by birth and therefore related to Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth's mother. But the woman he decides to marry is in many ways far worse, because she is a kinswoman of Elizabeth through the Boleyns. Her grandmother is Mary Boleyn, Carrie Anne Boleyn's sister. But it's worse than that in that she may in fact also be the granddaughter of Henry viii, because Mary Boleyn very famously had an affair with Henry VIII around the time that Lettice's mother is born. And so that is a known rumor at the time. And anyone who's listening, feel free to Google Lettice Knowles and you'll see a portrait that you might at first mistake for Elizabeth I. They look very similar. What's worse, though, even beyond all that, is she's younger and held to be prettier than Elizabeth. So she is designed, custom designed, to make Elizabeth jealous. She's also very close to Elizabeth, so it's this huge betrayal. But Robert and Lettice have known each other well over a decade by this point. He is godfather to her son Robert, who is named for him, and there are rumors of flirtations and a possible affair. Unlikely, but flirtations might have been the case in the 1560s, and they seem to kindle or rekindle some sort of romantic connection around the time or just after the Kenilworth celebrations. So they marry in secret, which is the smart thing to do if they're going to get married. They marry in secret in 1578 and they manage to keep it a secret from Elizabeth for well over a year, which is very impressive, frankly. And quite a few people knew it was this open secret. Elizabeth might have been the last to find out that the two were married. And it's revealed in this very dramatic moment, because it all comes out when shots are fired on the royal barge as it sails down the Thames. I think the bargeman is shot and possibly killed, but no member of the court is, and Elizabeth certainly isn't injured. But the French Ambassador decides that the shots were intended for him and that it was on Robert Dudley's orders. And so, as a sort of reflex to fire a shot back at Robert, he reveals to Elizabeth in this moment that Robert is in fact married and married to Lettice, and she loses it. Elizabeth has her father's temper and uses it to great advantage at various points in her reign, often on Robert. And so he's thrown out of the court, as is Lettice. He eventually, as he always manages to do, crawls his way back into favour. Lettice doesn't, and she's never in the same building as Elizabeth again for the rest of Elizabeth's life, but their marriage seems very loving, very secure. As I said, it's based on years and years of knowing each other and a friendship, and they seem genuinely close and devoted to each other.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (32:58)

Having crawled his way back into her affections in the 1580s, we see him once again at odds with the Queen. How did his personal ambition undermine her authority?

Dr. Joanne Paul (33:11)

Yes, as part of this movement to protect Protestants elsewhere in Europe, he is part of a push to provide forces in the Netherlands who are seeking independence from the Spanish, from the Habsburgs, who are Catholic and enforcing Catholicism in the Netherlands. So he sails at the head of. I think it's something like 3,000 men to reinforce the efforts in the Netherlands. And shortly after he arrives, the States General of the United Provinces of the Netherlands comes to his home and they propose to him that he take on the position of Governor General, or absolute governor, as the source reads, of the Netherlands. Now, this is a position that had been offered to Henri of France, it had been offered to Elizabeth herself. This is a sovereign position. This is a big deal. This would number him amongst the princes of Europe. He tells them that he'll think about it, that it is a big deal. And he sends off missives to England to ask, what do I do? Unfortunately, this for him, this all happens in January and it's almost impossible. It's months before letters are able to cross between England and the continent. And so he receives no replies to his letters. People in England are going, what's going on over there? We haven't heard from him. And eventually he makes the decision to accept. When Elizabeth at last finds out, I think it's the angriest. She is at him throughout their entire relationship. And when we've listed some of the things that he's done up to this point, that's really saying something. Oh, I should add as well, what really incenses of Elizabeth as well is the suggestion that he's going to bring Lettice over and install her as a queen as well. And that drives Elizabeth up the wall. His own brother writes to him and says, if I were you, I would go to the furthest part of Christendom rather than ever come into England again. Because Elizabeth is so angry at him, he says that our mistress's extreme rage doth increase rather than in any way diminish, and she giveth out great threatening words against you. So you can imagine Elizabeth just absolutely losing her mind. And she writes a very scathing letter to him, essentially saying, I raised you up, that you would betray me in this contemptible way, she says, to have broken our commandment. Now, in some ways that's unfair. Robert, I think, was right to say that he'd never been given direction either way. He hadn't expected this and he had accepted it genuinely in an attempt to do what he thought was right for the cause and for Elizabeth. But I also think he didn't mind that he would sit under a cloth of estate and rule. I think in some ways that's what he had always wanted for himself. But he very quickly revokes the acceptance of the position and starts to work to try to get himself back into favor. He sends his secretary to beg forgiveness. What ends up working is that he tells Elizabeth that he's very ill and could she please send her doctor to look after him. And this sort of softens her. And then he throws his poor secretary, William Davison, under the bus entirely and says that it was completely his fault, that he advised him to do it. And there's this great letter from Robert where he outlines all of these accusations against Davison. And Davison in the margins has gone denied, or this never happened, or so on and so forth because he's ruined him. Davison comes back for a little while later on. It doesn't completely destroy him, but Robert doesn't mind the idea that he's going to take all of that rage and deflect it from himself onto his poor secretary. And so that eventually works and with time, Elizabeth calms down. But it is the greatest rupture between them.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (37:29)

And would it be fair, therefore, to describe his time in the Netherlands as a political and personal failure all round?

Dr. Joanne Paul (37:36)

I think the personal side of it as well is that as part of the campaign that does eventually, after all of this scandal happens, begin. The campaign has its ups and downs, but in the course of one of the battles, his nephew and heir, the poet Philip Sidney, is shot and does, after about two or three weeks of illness, die of gangrene. And Robert is there and he writes a letter to Walsingham, who is Philip Sidney's father in law, saying, we've both lost a son. And so he takes this very hard. And it is not long after the death of his young son with Lettice as well. So this is part of a period of real tragedy for Robert. And so the campaign in the Netherlands, it risks his relationship with Elisabeth, it risks the legacy of his family, results in the death of a young man he considers to be his son. It doesn't go well.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (38:36)

And how did it affect his military reputation? Should we read into the fact that he had no formal military command at all during the crisis of the Spanish Armada.

Dr. Joanne Paul (38:49)

He is given command of a camp at West Tilbury. Very famously during the Spanish Armada, he is still considered to be trusted in some sense. And in fact, if you read the very famous speech at Tilbury that Elizabeth gives, containing that very often quoted line about having the body of a weak and feeble woman, but the heart and stomach of a king, and a king of England too, she at various points talks about her general and how much trust she places in in her general, whom never prince commanded. A more noble or worthy subject, she says, and he's right there next to her. So I think that she agrees to Robert's request, come and speak to the troops, and is happy to have that speech recorded, which it is, and shared. And of course, we have it today as well, speaks to the trust that she still invests in him. And Tilbury was considered a possible place for a landing, not a likely one, or they wouldn't have put the Queen there. But he is there in command of troops. And even if it is a sort of propaganda exercise, the fact that he is there next to her, I think, does say something.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (40:05)

On the 4th of September, 1588, less than a month after he rode into London with the Queen in celebration of her historic defeat of the Spanish, Robert Dudley died suddenly. How did Elizabeth react?

Dr. Joanne Paul (40:20)

She was devastated. We know that. It was very unexpected. He had illnesses through the years and was definitely starting to slow down. We know that he was taking the waters quite a bit at Buxton. He had various injuries, riding accidents and so on, but none of this suggested that he was in an inevitable decline. So it was a very sudden illness and death. He had sent her a letter just before. He'd fallen ill about a week before, and we still have this letter in his own hand and in Elizabeth's own hand, on the back, she's written his last letter and she kept that by her bedside until her own death in 1603. I think it's a lovely indication of the affection they had for each other for this long, critical friendship in both their lives, for the way in which, despite it all, they trusted each other, the way that she depended on him and the way that she felt in some way at a loss without him. And I think you can see her in the remaining years of her reign, almost flailing about, reaching out for someone to take his place. And of course, she turns to his stepson, Earl of Essex, with disastrous results as well. I think Robert had been positioning him as a sort of replacement for him as he got older and Elizabeth does turn to him and he's just not up. He's not up for the task, to say the least. And that of course compounds her tragedy and her loss when Dudley dies.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (42:09)

Well, thank you so much for giving us a sense of the depth and closeness of this relationship far beyond speculation about sexual intimacy. Here we have between them the real intimacy of knowing and being known, and you have really helped us understand that. So thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Joanne Paul (42:29)

Thank you. It's was wonderful to speak to you.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (42:32)

Now another thing that we know about Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, was that he was a very snappy dresser indeed. In a moment I'll be joined by Dr. Tracy Wedge to find out more about the extravagant outfits we can see him wearing in many of the portraits of him that survive.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:49)

Ads@Elizabeth I's court, fashion was more than frivolity. It was a statement of power and status. For Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, dress was part of a carefully curated public Persona, a constant symbol of his place in the Queen's favour. One such outfit, worn at the Feast of the Order of St. Michael in 1571, was typical of his tastes. White velvet shoes, silk hose, a doublet of silver, and a white velvet jerkin with a gold embroidered robe accessorised with a velvet cap with a white feather and a heavily embellished collar adorned with gemstones. In 1579, a request was sent to the Netherlands for cloth of tissue or of gold, or of such other pretty stuff, for which Dudley was willing to pay up to 400 pounds more than the cost of an average house in London. Even among other courtiers, Leicester would have stood out. Such lavish displays relied on the cultivation of a network of master artificers and merchants. He regularly commissioned the import of velvets and silks, often Richly dyed, as well as cloth woven with thread of gold and silver. Each sleep skilled artisan contributing to the spectacle of the splendor of the Elizabethan court. So how was Leicester's rise to becoming Queen Elizabeth I's favorite reflected in his wardrobe? Dr. Tracy Wedge is a conservator, curator and historian who has worked in the heritage sector for over 30 years. Her landmark PhD was titled Constructing the Wardrobe of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, Consumption and Networks of Production. And it's from the University of Southampton. Dr. Wedge, what was the process for a man like Lester to build his wardrobe so that he looked like a gem?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (45:40)

He had to work with a whole network of merchants and artificers who could construct the beautiful garments that we see in the portraits. So these merchants were sourcing materials from overseas, importing them into the kingdom. They were passing them on to the artificers to construct the garments. So it was a real network of leaders in their field, but also really interesting characters that brought magnificence to the court. In consultation with Lester, and I'm going.

Unknown (46:11)

To ask you more about those artisans and that network in due course. But just for the moment, I want to get a sense, I suppose, of the way in which clothing reflected favour. Is it possible to draw up a sort of fairly accurate timeline of when Leicester was in favour and when he was out of favour, simply through his spending habits?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (46:32)

I think that's a real challenge just because quite a lot of information exists around his spending by comparison to other courtiers. But there are huge gaps. So tracing that in and out of favour is really challenging. But you can certainly see that he did invest in his appearance, having to wear certain uniforms for certain positions. So we see him getting more robes of office for those kinds of positions. And also when he was nominated a garter knight, he needed to wear the requisite garments beneath the robes. So there was all sorts of garments that were added to his wardrobe as he increased in prestige and status through his positions at court. But it's really a very rich wardrobe, but not so different from a lot of the other courtiers who were at equal kind of positions within the court.

Unknown (47:22)

Okay, that's interesting because Lester's often described as someone who is excessively vain, eager to show off. But are you suggesting that this kind of cultivation of sartorial excess was part of the expected behavior of a courtier?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (47:36)

Oh, absolutely. Information for his wardrobe is greater than any other courtier at the time. So Leicester's peers at court were all dressing in a very similar style. Leicester was a patron of artists. So he had a lot of portraits painted of himself, which sets him apart from his other courtiers who were not patrons of the art. So there aren't quite so many portraits of them in existence. So I think that kind of gives people a view of him that would suggest that he was vain and interested in his own appearance. However, he was also an important patron for painters and artists.

Unknown (48:16)

That's interesting. The survival of evidence in this case determines the narrative, and the fact that he's interested in patronizing artists is crucial. I mean, if you're looking at Lester's portraits, how much do you think we can learn from them? Is there any way of knowing whether they depict his clothing accurately, or is art itself being used as a kind of propaganda about his status?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (48:41)

There is a bit of that propaganda. Certainly he was using it as a tool. There's a really beautiful portrait in the Wallace collection of him in a yellow suit of clothing that is decorated extensively with pearl and diamond buttons and a beautiful pearl chain from which George hangs. And it is really reminiscent of the New Year's gift he was given by the Queen in 1563. He is portraying himself in garments and adorned with baubles. And in that situation, it might be an attempt to display gifts that the Queen has given him. So the portraits are used to support his position at court by saying, this is what the Queen has given me. And not many people would see those portraits. So these are portraits that are hung in his home, Leicester House. You'd only have courtiers and visiting ambassadors see that kind of thing, and potentially the Queen.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (49:37)

So it's not a form of propaganda.

Unknown (49:40)

That'S intended for the general public, but it must have a purpose in terms of these portraits hanging in spaces where foreign dignitaries might see them or the Queen herself might see them. What do you think he's trying to convey by having this?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (49:55)

He's communicating his position to or those that see the portraits, but he's also doing that through the dress he's wearing. Certainly the accounts that we have from a fabric disbursement book from the 1570s indicates the fabrics that these garments are being made from, and they correlate really nicely with some of the portraiture from that period. So what you're seeing in the portraits is what he's having made.

Unknown (50:20)

It's fascinating when you get the documentary and the artistic evidence lining up so neatly like that. Can you give a couple of examples?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (50:27)

There's a really lovely red suit of clothing, the doublet and hose. That's certainly a similar kind of Fabric is documented in the 1570s fabric disbursement book. And there's also alongside that is a portrait of Queen Elizabeth wearing a doublet that Lester gave her as a gift. And that doublet that the Queen is wearing is almost certainly made by Lester's tailor. So this is seeing the artificer's work that she has viewed on Leicester, on the Queen, and then Lester's tailor becomes a tailor to the Queen. So it's really interesting use of dress and transfer of skills and recognising the importance of the artisan and creating that magnificent image through clothing, again in portraiture. So it's really a wonderful kind of example of the power of dress.

Unknown (51:22)

And I'm interested in some of the codes here. I mean, were there specific codes of dress to be met when you were meeting a foreign ambassador, for example, or was Leicester restricted at all by sumptuary laws about who could wear what?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (51:37)

In Elizabeth's court, he was not restricted by sumptuary law. He was master of the horse, so was expected to be a magnificent representation of the monarch. And that really didn't impact on his dress. There's a really nice example in 1559, when Leicester and the Earl of Oxford were sent to meet John, Duke of Finland, and Lester had a cloak made to wear to meet the Duke of Finland, and the cloak was decorated with 30 pounds worth of gold and silver pearl metal embroidery, which is in addition to the cost of the cloak. So he's really wanting to exude the richness and the splendor of the court and making a fantastic first impression on the Duke when he arrives in the country, and then he is processed down to London to see the Queen. It's such a fabulous resource for exploring the courtier's wardrobe, the documents that exist for Leicester.

Unknown (52:34)

And to be clear, court attire was different to everyday wear.

Dr. Tracy Wedge (52:38)

Absolutely.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (52:39)

In what ways?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (52:40)

None of these doublets and hose that Leicester were wearing were launderable, so you wouldn't be wanting to wash anything. So they were cared for in different ways. Where's the middling sort in? Those below were restricted on what they wore and more utilitarian in the garments. So he had quite a different kind of sphere that the courtiers were traveling in. Even Lester's shirts that he wore under his doublets, which were the launderable kind of element that protected his doublets from his skin. They were expensive items as well. He was wearing really fine linen that was embroidered and was really a fabulous example of what was consumed and the artisans that were making these products and the merchants that were importing.

Unknown (53:24)

Now, he was wearing many of these things because he's meeting foreign ambassadors. But how much was the splendor of the court reliant on foreign labor? I mean, the import of textiles, for example. How were these sourced?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (53:40)

The merchants had connections overseas. So we can look at someone like Benedict Spinola, Italian merchant, who had brothers in the Low Countries, who were supplying Leicester with fabrics. He was also supplying jewels and seeking out a tailor from the Low Countries at one stage to support Leicester's interest in maintaining a high standard of dress that was comparable to courts in Europe. So I think Leicester had a real interest in demonstrating that Elizabeth's court was as spectacular as any in Europe.

Unknown (54:13)

And his hosier was an immigrant from the Low Countries as well, wasn't he?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (54:17)

Yes.

Unknown (54:17)

Maynard Buckwood, with how common was it to have foreign artisans supplying the court? What sort of capacities do we see them in?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (54:25)

I think it's really difficult to tell, just because the evidence isn't there. We know Henry Sydney had a tailor who was a foreigner and his tailor was employing a stranger and the tailor was sent to prison for that. The merchant tailor's company were very restrictive of employing foreign labour. However, William Whittle, who was Leicester's taylor, he managed to employ two stranger journeymen in his business without any penalty from the merchant tailor's company. Whether that was Leicester's influence or whether he just got away with it somehow. But Leicester was really interested in and supported foreign artisans in his business and in the importation of rich materials.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (55:14)

Yes.

Unknown (55:14)

Because what you're saying is he would have had to get round the guild system.

Dr. Tracy Wedge (55:18)

Yes.

Unknown (55:19)

Which at the time meant that all skilled crafts were managed by the guild and membership was restricted to the citizens of London. And so to employ someone who was a stranger, as they called them at the time, an immigrant, was to buck that law. So why was he doing it? Was it because there were new techniques, that they brought in, new expertise?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (55:40)

It really is quite difficult to say. Maynard Buckworth was considered to be Dutch and Leicester had Dutch items in his wardrobe. And the two strangers that William Whittle, the tailor, engaged, they were both Dutch as well. So there's the potential that he was employing them to try and curry favour, more favour with Leicester, to fit within the styling that he was quite interested in.

Unknown (56:06)

And you've drawn on his wardrobe accounts. I wonder what they can tell us, then, about the people you mentioned earlier, the artisans, the suppliers, as existed for the elite of the Elizabethan court. I mean, it seems that if you're making A garment of this kind of intricacy, you'd rely on the skills of a number of artisans and suppliers working together. So how is this managed?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (56:29)

At least he had wardrobe stuff who worked with Lester to manage the wardrobe supply network. In the archives, there's some really fabulous warrants that were written by his wardrobe staff and bills from some of his artisans that helped to describe the process really well. So the warrants talk about one person supplying one aspect of the clothing, and then a receipt was written and when it was delivered to the next person in the chain, Alice Montague, the silk woman, was supplying the tailor, William Whittle, with lace for a particular doublet. And it was all documented along the chain so that there was some accountability throughout the whole process. And each of them was relying on the necks to ensure that the craftsmanship and the workmanship was outstanding. And they were developing garments that were basically fit for purpose for a splendid courtier in a magnificent court.

Unknown (57:29)

And it's interesting that you mention Alice Montague there. So we've got women making garments and supplying textiles to the court as well as men?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (57:37)

Oh, yes. From the names I've gathered, there were only around 7% of women named as suppliers to Leicester's wardrobe. But there were also women who were working alongside their husbands. There's an example of Mary, the wife of John Lonison, who was a goldsmith who was in the Low Countries sourcing jewels for Leicester, and Mary was running his shop while he was away. The wives are working with their husbands in the business that are not necessarily named, which means potentially there were a whole lot more women involved in creating that spectacle we see in Leicester.

Unknown (58:14)

Absolutely. So we're starting to build up a picture of really a vast number of people attending to production of fabrics, to the construction of clothing, to the detail that needed to be applied to them. I mean, this is almost an impossible question, I'm sure, from the accounts, but have you got any sense of how many people's work goes into making something so that Leicester looks splendid at court?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (58:40)

I spent a bit of time trying to work on William Whittle's information. So the tailor who worked on the upper bodygarments, so the doublets and the cloaks and the coats. As a merchant tailor, he's in the merchant tailor's company records, so all of his apprentices are named and presented at the merchant tailor's court. And he had a really high success rate for his apprentices. So he. At one stage in the 1570s, he appeared that he had around about 10 people working in his workshop creating garments for Lester. So that's one workshop. Kwith was producing the same amount of garments, so the throughput through his workshop was around about the same. Potentially another 10 people working on just the hose for Lester's and his household. Plus you've got the silk woman. She had numerous other people working in her workshop because she was also supplying silkware to the Royal wardrobe. So these workshops were quite large and more research is needed into understanding who these people were and the impact of their workshops within their own communities.

Unknown (59:54)

Finally then, how does a study of Leicester's dress help us understand the complex structures of power and favour at the court of Elizabeth I?

Dr. Tracy Wedge (60:04)

I think it demonstrates the impact of the court on the city and on the nation and how it has tendrils across Europe, how it impacts on relationships on a community level, how it perpetuates craft and the nurturing of artisanal skills. I think that's certainly something that continues in the uk. The treasuring of craft skills is really wonderful and I think that Lester's wardrobe and his impact as a patron on a vast array of people was really important for Elizabeth's court.

Unknown (60:46)

Well, that's a fascinating insight into a moment, a detail of Elizabethan court which might otherwise be overlooked. Thank thank you, Tracey Wedge, so much for telling me about your research and your expertise.

Dr. Tracy Wedge (60:59)

Oh, you're most welcome. Thank you for inviting me to talk about it.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (61:05)

Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher Alice Smith and my producer Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susannah Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors. From history.

Dr. Joanne Paul (61:17)

Hit foreign.

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