Adam Pennington (5:42)

Thank you very much. Absolutely thrilled to be here.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (5:45)

Now, why do you think the Poors have sort of slipped under the radar when it comes to the historiography?

Adam Pennington (5:51)

It's a funny one. I refer to them in the book as the Tudor B list, which I think is, I suppose, a succinct way of summarizing them, even though to their contemporaries they were absolutely a list. I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that that Henry VIII and the Six Wives. As a story, it totally dominates the Pole family. Margaret and her children were one of many families at the court. And while they are just as significant, just as important as the other big noble houses, we tend to obviously hone in on the monarch, their wives, their children. So because of that, their story is less covered, but is no less fascinating. And a big desire when I was writing my book was to bring this story back and also make people more aware of what was going on, the much wider ramifications of what was involved in Margaret's eventual execution. But they are just this remarkable family and I think once people understand the scale of who they were, it also provides such basis and understanding for why Henry VII and Henry VIII in particular behaved the way they did.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:58)

Your book is called Henry VIII and the Plantagenet the Rise and Fall of a Dynasty. So let's the rise, as it were. Tell me or remind listeners who the Plantagenets were.

Adam Pennington (7:11)

Well, the Plantagenets were, I suppose, our greatest royal family in history have been certainly the British Isles. They ruled over England, large waves of France and other parts of Europe for over 300 years. And they had a line of 14 kings, somewhat fractious here and there, but by and large a magnificent, fascinating and widespread royal dynasty. We then have this moment where the Tudors come on the scene and the rule of the Plantagenets is overthrown. But that didn't stop the fact that there were many Plantagenet members of the royal family still very much part of Judah life. So in that respect, that's kind of what made Margaret her family and the other, what we referred to as the Whiterose network, somewhat of a ready made affront to the House of Judah.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (8:04)

And do we need to remind people too about the two branches of the Plantagenet family and how that's relevant to this story?

Adam Pennington (8:10)

Yes, Margaret was descended from the Yorkist branch and the Yorkist branch, from a king perspective, from a monarch perspective, we had Edward IV and his younger brother Richard iii, and slightly wedged in between Edward V, the elder of the princes in the Tower. Margaret was the daughter of George, Duke of Clarence, who was the middle brother between kings Edward IV and Richard iii. So she is a niece of two of England's kings. She's a niece in the male line. She's also the granddaughter of Richard, Earl of Warwick, Warwick the Kingmaker, as he's known, the man that helped place Edward IV on the throne. But the Yorks were to hardline Lancastrian supporters. The Yorks were themselves something of A ready made affront. Despite the fact that they had, if you accept, the female ability to pass on titles, to pass on hereditary rights, the Yorks had the greater claim. But that wasn't necessarily the view that was taken at the time, which is how the Lancastrian family remained on the throne. But as we know, Henry VI was something of a disaster that led to his deposition, Edward IV becoming king and his dynasty and and his brothers, their children, their grandchildren becoming who the Poles eventually became, I suppose you could say.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (9:30)

Let's recap then. Henry, Earl of Richmond's claim to the English throne, he of course puts an end to Plantagenet rule. On what basis does he do so?

Adam Pennington (9:39)

Well, Henry claimed the throne ultimately via his mother's ancestors, the Beauforts. They were an illegitimate line that was later legitimized by, that came via John of Gaunt. And that is how Henry vii, as he became, had a sliver of a claim to the throne. Now, famously, this was a mere sliver. So the Tudor claim does not bear close scrutiny. Now, while Nathan Amin has very successfully reappraised the notion that the Beaufort line was removed from the line of succession, he firmly believes that that wasn't quite the case. It was very clear that Henry Tudor's claim to the throne, whilst there, was tenuous and that there were other claimants to the throne who had a much better claim, not least of all being Margaret and her younger brother, Edward, Earl of Warwick, and then of course the woman that Henry Tudor marries, Elizabeth of York, the eldest daughter of Edward iv. So when I talk about that ready made affront, I suppose, that the Whiterose families imposed upon Henry III Tudor, it came from the fact that there were just many people who had a better claim to the throne. They were closely related to Edward iv, to Richard iii. Henry Tudor's claim was just much more tenuous. So that's why there was also this real sort of stamping of authority when Henry came to the throne, claimed the throne and how he then went about neutralizing, I suppose, the threats that certainly the female Yorkists represented, and sadly for Margaret's brother, the significant threat that he in and of himself represented.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (11:18)

So how did Henry go about doing that?

Adam Pennington (11:21)

Well, he neutralized them and he neutralized them in the oldest way. He married them off. So he marries obviously the York's greatest prize, I suppose one could argue, which is Elizabeth of York, many would argue, as would I, that ultimately without the knowledge that she was going to be marrying Henry Tudor, that he'd have had a much harder time getting back in Getting supporters. The other York princesses, the other York senior female claimants are married off to neutralise them as threats. Margaret is given in marriage to Sir Richard Pole, who had, I mean, if we think that Henry Tudor had a sliver of royal blood, Richard Pole had not so much as even a sprinkle under his finger. Now, this man, he had one teeny claim of grandeur, which was that his grandfather was a half sibling of Margaret Beaufort, the mother of Henry Tudor. So he was by no means, I mean, we're talking here about a woman, a girl actually, because she was only in her teens, but the daughter of a royal duke, the daughter of the second man in the kingdom. She is married off to Sir Richard Pole, who had an annual income of roughly £50 per annum, two small properties. Margaret's father, George, Duke of Clarence, his income had been 6,000 pounds and via her grandfather had lands from Calais to the borders of Scotland. So the disparity between what Margaret was born to to what she marries was just astronomical. And there was a lot of talk at the time that the marriage was shamefully poor for a girl born all but a princess, effectively, but it provided safety, it neutralised her claim. So you could argue that it provided her with a measure of security. Sadly, Margaret's brother's situation was quite different because he was the last male line Plantagenet, so he was the last person that could conceivably pass the Plantagenet name itself on. There were no others remaining. It was purely women and sons of women. Whereas Edward was the son of George, Duke Clarence. He's initially a figure of the court, but very quickly finds himself on a one way trip to the Tower of London. He eventually becomes embroiled in the Perkin Warbeck scandal that results in Perkin Warbeck's execution. Edward, Earl of Warwick, is 24 at the time he's executed. He'd been in the tower for 12 years by this point. And although it has been claimed that the execution was based predominantly around his supposed plots with Perkin Warbeck, in reality there was a lot of pressure applied by Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain for England to be rid of claimants to the throne before they would allow their daughter Catherine to set sail for her marriage to Prince Arthur. So Margaret loses her rank, she marries someone way beneath her in status. Edward, her brother, eventually loses his life.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (14:21)

Was there a world in which Edward of Warwick could have been left alive by the Tudors, do you think?

Adam Pennington (14:26)

It's incredibly difficult to say. I think possibly were it Henry viii, but I think under Henry vii, because Henry VII had just this naturally, much more suspicious mind. There was just this inherent danger, I think, in Edward, not least because the Plantagenets were so beloved. The north of England, in particular had huge loyalty to Edward's maternal grandfather, Warwick the Kingmaker. The Warwick lands that Edward inherited were so vast, I mean, as I mentioned, Calais to Scotland, they had lands the whole way. So realistically, I think, under Henry vii, no, I don't think there was a place that he could have ever been secure. It could have conceivably been made much easier once Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York had sons, because then that would have placed them in a safer position. But Edward, Earl of Warwick, I think, was always going to be a real concern for Henry VII in a way that he may not have been for Henry viii, at least at the start of the reign.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:32)

And why do you think there was a certain amount of leniency shown initially to Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel before their eventual executions?

Adam Pennington (15:43)

Yes, it's such a strange one, isn't it, Lambert Simnel? I think there was clearly a lot less to go on that this could be one of the missing princes in the Tower. And so I think actually, in a way to come down heavily on him, to execute him, would have, in a way, almost legitimized his claim by giving Lambert Simnel a lowly position in the King's household. I think, in a way, for Henry vii, showed him for what he was. With Perkin Warbeck, it's stranger still, and I say that in a way based on Perkin Warbeck's own behaviour, because as we know, he creates much, much more drama than Lambert Simnel ever did. He gets major backing from people like Margaret of Burgundy, a sister of Edward IV and Richard iii. He is eventually captured, he's eventually honoured at the court, in some respects, in part because of his marriage to Lady Catherine Gordon. What I find odd about Perkin Morbeck is that he then goes on to have this attempted escape. If you were Plano Perkin Warbeck, then getting a position in the King's household would have been incredible and would have been something he would have surely want to hold onto. But in trying to escape, does it actually add weight to the theory that he could have been one of the princes in the Tower and that the prospect of living as a servant was intolerable? Now, I'm not saying that that's necessarily what happened, but as an argument, I've never seen that picked up on by the Ricardian movement. And for me, it's a bit of a grey area, so I don't really know with Perkin Warbeck, from Henry Tudor's perspective, there probably was that desire to not give him credence by coming down heavily until his hand was sort of pushed.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (17:32)

And talking of Margaret, how significant was the role of Lady Margaret Beaufort in protecting her son's fragile reign at this time?

Adam Pennington (17:40)

I think it was enormously important, but I think we've also been coloured. Our perception of Lady Margaret Beaufort has unfortunately, particularly in the past decade, been hugely colored and altered in people's perceptions by the work of Philippa Gregory and the Ricardian movement. Margaret Beaufort was central to Henry Tudor's reign and we can see her hand across many of the decisions that are taken. We can see her hand in the decisions taken around Margaret Pole's marriage to Sir Richard. But actually, when we look at the records, she wasn't the villain that some treat her as today. But she was also involved in the guardianship, the wardship of Margaret Pole and Edward, Earl of Warwick, her brother. There was a long window before Edward is taken to the Tower that he is actually under Margaret's protectorship, which I think is also quite telling that this woman, who is very central to protecting Henry's reign, also takes on the guardianship of arguably the most potent claimant to overthrow him. But she's central across everything, really. There were very much two women in Henry Tudor's life, his mother and his wife.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:51)

That's right. So talking of another woman in Henry Tudor's life, but one he treated rather poorly, Catherine of Aragon. You mentioned her already as a Lancastrian and a descendant of Edward iii. Did she actually have a greater claim to the English throne than Henry vii?

Adam Pennington (19:10)

She did, which is somewhat hysterical. And when one looks at it, Catherine of Aragon possessed a greater claim to the throne than. Than the Tudors did. Now, I don't believe that that's why Henry Tudor necessarily treated her appallingly. In some respects, Henry Tudor was in a bit of a rock and a hard place, not least because I think Catherine's father was also causing a lot of the trouble as well. You know, he was not sending her dowry. So Catherine was sort of caught in the middle. Catherine of Aragon's relationship with Margaret Poll really began. I mean, and I think we have to also consider that the relationship between Catherine and Margaret had the capacity to be quite a fractious one and probably didn't start out as hugely warm, given the fact that we know it is highly probable that Margaret's brother's Execution enabled Catherine to leave Spain and come to England, so that as a basis for the start of their relationship, can't have been especially. It's not a very good icebreaker, is it, by any means. But when Catherine of Aragon does arrive in England, she is married to Prince Arthur, son and heir of Henry Tudor. And very quickly the couple journey to the Welsh Marches and they are under the guardianship there of Sir Richard Pole. And naturally, as his wife Margaret went with him. And in that five month window where Arthur and Catherine are married, Catherine and Margaret, they bond. And I think they bond actually through a lot of trauma. They are both at the receiving end of quite harsh treatment by Henry Tudor. And I think that we see that even more in the wake of Arthur's death, because not long after Arthur's death, Sir Richard Pole dies and Margaret's life is thrown into chaos. Catherine and Margaret's existences begin to greatly mirror each other and they shared trauma caused by Henry Tudor, I think.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (21:11)

And is it because of this connection with Catherine that Margaret regains her status once Henry VIII becomes king?

Adam Pennington (21:21)

I think Catherine of Aragon was undoubtedly helpful in that, because as we know, one of the very first things Henry VIII does when he becomes king, he marries Catherine of Aragon. Catherine of Aragon, by this point, is a close friend of Margaret's. Margaret has had several children with her husband, four sons and a daughter. They were features of the court. But when Edward, Earl of Warwick, was executed, his lands and titles all reverted to the crown. Margaret's husband, Richard didn't have much of an income, so when he dies, Margaret is all but destitute. Catherine of Aragon is in a similar position. This is kind of what really drives these two women together when Henry VIII comes to the throne. There is certainly an argument that the closeness between Catherine and Margaret would have inspired Catherine to say, it's probably worth you approaching the King with a petition to restore your lands. But equally, you could also argue that this was something that Margaret would have done off of her own volition. Because what we have to remember about Henry VIII is that he's half York and moreover, he is said to be much more York than Lancastrian. He is six' three. He's very much his maternal grandfather, Edward iv. Come again? In many respects, they greatly resemble each other. He's much more affable, gregarious, he's much more of a York, and he famously adored his mother, Elizabeth of York, and Margaret had a very close relationship. So I think there's an argument that actually Margaret felt perfectly emboldened in her own right to approach Henry viii. But equally, Catherine could have suggested it, we can't say for certain. But Margaret does approach Henry. She lays out her claims to the lands that were her brother's lands that were taken, and Henry VIII willingly grants it all back. But he does something even more special. He does something which is pretty unprecedented in that he grants it all back to Margaret directly. He makes her a femme sole. He makes her the Countess of Salisbury in her own right. She'd actually been hoping to win the Earldenbach for her eldest son, Henry, but Henry says, no, it's going to go to you. And that immediately catapults Margaret smack bang into the middle of the nobility again. She goes from being destitute, effectively, to the point where her third son, Reginald, was given over to the Church as a means of alleviating financial pressure. Suddenly, she's undoubtedly the richest woman in the kingdom, after the Queen. And when we look at lists of the top 10 wealthiest nobles, she's number five. And that list is exclusively male. Aside of Margaret, of course. I mean, her life under Henry viii at the start of the reign at least, changes beyond all measurements. Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of irrefutable fact you can find. Because conviction is the calm that comes when you know that you really do. No, people who read the Financial Times know that they can shape their own perspectives with confidence because their viewpoints are informed by genuinely unbiased journalism, clarity and conviction. Source FT subscribe to the financial times@ft.comSourceFT when everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution. That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect hr, finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power. What's next? Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy experience. One place for all. Your HCM needs. Start now at paylocity.com One AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with Fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries, queries for real businesses. This includes the real world, complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when Fin goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy. We'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at Fin AI.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (26:36)

And how does she use this new status to promote her family to positions of prominence and to consolidate power at court?

Adam Pennington (26:47)

So it was sort of the oldest trick in the book. She began looking at marriage prospects for her children. She also was given a great honour when she was made governess to Princess Mary, the daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. Margaret had served as Catherine's lady in waiting from the moment that Catherine became queen. But by the time Princess Mary eventually comes along, in 1516, that is when Margaret is put in charge of Mary's household. And this will lead to an exceptionally strong, very close bond between Margaret and Mary that was lifelong, absolutely beyond all doubt. What she also then does, as I say, is to begin marrying her children off to other noble houses. And unsurprisingly, she shops around with the other noble houses that also share blood. We have to really keep in mind that the Plantagenets was just this huge spider's web of cousins and extended kin. And the Plantagenets, the Whiterose network, they were known for their fecundity, they were known for their ability to produce so many children. This was not a skill that the Tudors possessed. So Margaret marries her children into other noble houses. Her eldest son, Henry, his marriage is obviously of great importance. As her heir, he marries the daughter of Baron Burgavenni, so Jane Neville, the daughter of George Neville, 5th Baron Burgavenny, who thus had a small bit of royal blood in her veins. She was also a descendant of Edward iii. And that makes the marriage a proper one. It joins two extended cousins together. The other major marriage that Margaret negotiates is for her daughter, Ursula Pole. And this one, she really landed a spectacular marriage. She marries her into the Buckingham family, Edward Stafford's son, Henry Stafford. And Edward Stafford is the third Duke of Buckingham. He is the country's premier duke. This means that with the fullness of time, Ursula would become the Duchess of Buckingham. She would outrank her own mother. She would be the premier woman in the kingdom after the royal family. Unfortunately, as we know, this marriage that had such promise and such remarkable prospects, sadly doesn't deliver because of what happens to Edward Stafford, Duke of Buckingham, in 1521. Because thereafter, all of those lands, all of the titles that are tied to this remarkable dukedom, they all revert back to the crown. So the glittering future that was Ursula Poles is sadly cut short.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:34)

And how does Margaret manage to distance herself from the fallout?

Adam Pennington (29:39)

Well, she doesn't. The family fall under suspicion once again, because underpinning this further is that the Duke of Buckingham's son in law was George Neville Barenberg of any. And his son in law is Henry Poll, Margaret's eldest son. So there is just that added complication. And actually, Henry Pole and his father in law, George Neville, were both briefly implicated in the Duke's execution. And on the part of George Neville, he suffers an order of misprision. He's imprisoned for a year and is effectively made penniless. Off the back of it, Henry Pole is able to escape without charge. But it does cast quite a shadow. And then. And that leads to the Pole family being something of Persona non grata for a few years at the Royal Court. They're out in the Tudor wilderness. Things like the Christmas and New Year's gift lists can often give us a real insight into people who were out in the cold, things beginning to thaw. And we first see that four years later when Margaret's New Year's gift to the King is not returned. And shortly thereafter, she's invited back to court and things improve again, as they say, temporarily.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (30:54)

What are the implications for the Poole family when it comes to Henry trying to have his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled? She's been this great friend of Catherine's.

Adam Pennington (31:04)

Yeah.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (31:05)

What is going to happen to them?

Adam Pennington (31:07)

I mean, they all. I firmly believe that the entire Pole family were deeply committed to Catherine of Aragon, to her interests, and to the interests of Princess Mary. But we're talking about Henry VIII here, you know, to go against him would have been treason, at least as he saw it. We know what happens to John Fisher, to Thomas More, the family sign. Well, certainly Margaret and her sons, they all sign the act of Supremacy. Margaret, eventually she's removed as being Mary's governess again. That sort of leads her to being out in the wilderness somewhat her sons. So Henry, the eldest, and Arthur, her second son, are forced to play their part and to, where possible, provide information to the King to lend their support to show the Pope that the English nobility were in support of the separation from Henry and Catherine. So they did their bit, even though they will have done it, I'm fully convinced, through gritted teeth. Not that they would have let those gritted teeth been made aware to the King. But it was a very tough time for Margaret. I think, in particular, I think she'd have been nothing short of heartbroken at what was happening to one of her greatest friends. And I think she would have also been very sad to see what Henry VIII were turning into. This was a woman who'd known him his entire life, had been his mother's favorite cousin. So I think it was just something she really would have struggled with. But Margaret's, she never spoke out vocally, certainly against it. She kept those thoughts on to herself. But she does eventually sign the act of Supremacy. She's one of the first on the list, which I think, again, is indicative of her rank. But, yeah, the family, they weathered the storm. But as I say, I think deep down they were very upset by what was happening, but they had to go along with the status quo.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:01)

And do we see any evidence of resistance to Anne Boleyn's queenship by Margaret Paul?

Adam Pennington (33:08)

Not hard evidence, no. There's very little to say that the women were ever particularly close or even if they ever met. I'm sure they did meet. There are certainly no concrete examples of them meeting. There is no evidence to suggest that Margaret was at Anne's coronation, for example.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:23)

But that in itself is quite a slight, isn't it?

Adam Pennington (33:25)

Yes.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (33:25)

With somebody of such a senior noble status not being at the coronation of the new queen, the absence, the omission, is an act of defiance.

Adam Pennington (33:35)

It is. But equally, was she invited? That's, I suppose, the other argument here, again, we cannot say. We have to go down the route of either she was invited and she deigned to attend, which is a huge slight, or she wasn't invited. Now, evidence that would suggest that she was invited but didn't attend is that Gertrude Courtenay was invited and did attend. And Gertrude and Margaret's positions were similar in the sense that they were both senior females within the nobility, both conservative in their religion, both devoted to Catherine of Aragon and the interests of her daughter. The big difference is that Gertrude is married into a Plantagenet name, Margaret is a Plantagenet. And so therein. And actually, this is sort of the tone really for everything that happens later on. But therein, Margaret is, I suppose, much more of a potent threat. That notion of there being a Ready made, affront. So it's really difficult to say, but I would be inclined to think that Margaret was invited and didn't attend because we also know that her sons were there. Arthur Pole, for example, was a server at Anne's coronation. So I think it's likely that she didn't attend, which tells us a lot. She was part of that group of the old nobility, the old female nobility, undoubtedly headed by the King's younger sister, Princess Mary, who was vocal and made it very clear that she had no love of Anne Boleyn. So I think, although the evidence isn't there to tell us hard facts, I think it likely that Margaret and Anne were by no means friendly.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (35:15)

And what role did the Pole family play in. In Anne's trial and execution?

Adam Pennington (35:20)

So Henry Pole is on the jury that condemns Anne Boleyn. So the jury that is summoned for the trial of anne Boleyn on the 17th of May, he is on the list and he is obviously, because it is unanimous, he is one of the people that names her guilty. But aside of that, Margaret herself wasn't involved. It purely was, because that's the other thing, is that as much as Margaret was the matriarch of the family, Henry Pole became the family's representative at court. Ultimately, Margaret, once Henry Pole reached maturity, he was their face at court. Margaret was heavily involved in the day to day minutiae of Princess Mary's life. Once that all broke apart during Anne Boleyn's tenure as Queen Consort, Margaret retires to the country and lives a rather lovely life tending to her lands and her many manors and all the rest of it. So it's Henry Pool that's the representative at court and as I say, he named Anne Boleyn guilty, but they weren't remotely involved in providing evidence or anything like that. That was their only involvement, was purely that place on the jury.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (36:28)

Yes. What was required of them. But we do have a much more critical voice in the Poole family at this time, Reginald Pause. So we have his work written in 1535. 36 Pro Ecclesiastica Unitatis defensione. Defense of the unity of the Church known as de unitate.

Adam Pennington (36:47)

Yes.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (36:48)

Can we talk about that? What's the significance of that in his conflict with Henry viii?

Adam Pennington (36:54)

Well, it's huge and it really is, I would argue, the beginning of the downfall of the Pole family because it puts such a spotlight on them in the worst possible way. So as I referenced earlier, Reginald Pole was actually given in his childhood at the age of six, his Mother gave him over to the Church as a means of alleviating the financial pressure that she was under. So he grows to be a great churchman, but also a great scholar. And Henry VIII sees Reginald as an opportunity, really, to have this great scholar, both in England but across Europe. So he sponsors Reginald's education. He's educated at Padua and in Rome. And Reginald therefore spends huge amounts of time in Italy. And because of that, he's in Italy at the point that Henry VIII is trying to get the divorce, the great matter, as it's known. And during that time, Reginald has the ear of the Pope. He's in Italy as far as Henry VIII is concerned. This is my cousin. I've sponsored him. I've effectively paid for his education. I now expect him to do some good work for me and help convince the Pope to allow the dissolution of my marriage to Catherine, to allow me to marry Anne. Now, Reginald gave every indication that that is precisely what he would do and that he would supply Henry with the evidence that he wanted. And he kept saying it and he kept saying it and he kept saying it, and this work just wasn't appearing. And then we hit. After Amberlynn is executed, this letter, as you say, known as de Unitate, arrives back in England. It's not a letter, it's a small book. And it is a stinging attack on the King. He likens him to Nero, he likens him to Caligula. He talks about the king destroying the best men in the kingdom. And by that he meant Bishop Fisher and Thomas More. This is a hugely explosive, very stinging attack on Henry viii. And that is exactly how Henry VIII sees it. And understandably, it causes a huge fissure between Henry and Reginald and therefore, by extension, really pulls Reginald's family. He's safely ensconced in Italy, they're back in England having to pick up the pieces, as it were.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:17)

Yes, I suppose in this work, because he's suggesting that Henry's Royal supremacy is incompatible with. With the teachings of Scripture as well as the teachings of the Church. He's directly contravening the thing that, it seems to me, Henry holds most dear. It is the thing for which More and Fisher die. Henry's absolute attachment to his Royal supremacy and his belief that it is sanctioned by Scripture, that his position is sanctioned by Scripture. And here, Reginald Paul has put his entire family in the line of cannon fire.

Adam Pennington (39:51)

And what makes matters worse is we know, and Henry would have known, that the Pole family were conservative in their religion. These families, they all went along with what was being asked of them, but they were conservative Catholics and we know that and we can see that in evidence that later comes out around some of the way that Margaret was running her lands. So it puts such a spotlight back on the family and Reginald can say it with impunity. He's safely ensconced in under papal protection. His family are left to deal with the fallout of this. And, you know, once Henry VIII's honor is pricked, it's a very difficult thing to climb down from. So it was going to be hugely challenging for them thereafter.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (40:38)

It is not helped, however, by the actions of Geoffrey Paul.

Adam Pennington (40:42)

So, yes, the problem, Paul, yes.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (40:46)

How does he seal the family's fate?

Adam Pennington (40:50)

It's a combination of Jeffrey's behavior and Reginald's behavior. And they're, they're sort of yin and yang in some respects. Geoffrey Pole was the youngest of the five children. He's the youngest of the four boys. And like other third born, fourth born sons, we have to think about Edmund Howard as an example. He is noble, he has expectations placed upon him, but he doesn't have the finances to back those up. He is not his brother Henry, who is both a more serious character and the inheritor. He's in a much more challenging position. And so he is constantly burgeoned by debt because he's trying to live the life of a nobleman. It's what's expected of him, but he doesn't have the financial backing to do it. He's got a huge family, 12 children, and he's massively burgeoned by debt and he becomes something of a liability, basically. And when all of the changes began to really take hold throughout the, you know, the dissolution of the monasteries, the break from the papacy, as I've already explained, the Pole family were conservative in their religion. So you've got this and then you've got Geoffrey's debts. Compounding things further, he got to a point where he thought, okay, I need to leave England, I need to try and escape. So to do that, he managed to open up a communication link to his brother Reginald in Italy. And he was able to open up that communication link via a man called Hugh Holland, who worked for Jeffrey and had worked for Henry Pole as well. And Hugh Holland conveyed letters from Jeffrey to Reginald over in Italy. And these letters contained within them a lot of information that Henry VIII would not want leaving English shores. We also have to factor in that we've got the Pilgrimage of Grace going on around this time. And Reginald has made it clear that he would happily help build an army that would invade from Europe. Geoffrey is leaking secrets to his brother. There is information in these letters about Henry Pole, but also Henry Courtenay as well, the Marquis of Exeter. And unfortunately for Geoffrey, as ever, Thomas Cromwell is two steps ahead and. And has an informant who turns up one day, a man called Gervase Tindall, loosely related to the much more famous William Tyndall. He appears in the Lands at Warblington, around Margaret's premier seat, Warblington Castle. He arrives there claiming to be ill and needing sanctuary at a hospital in the Lands, Warblington Castle. But it's pretty obvious that he was sent there to spy by Cromwell. He gets wind of this communication channel. Hugh Holland arrives back in England, is promptly arrested, and he soon begins to speak like a canary. And it's Geoffrey Pole who is the first of the Pole family, whose name is then tied to the drama that would then ensue.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:55)

Let's talk then about Lady Margaret, Paul. How does she defend herself against accusations of treason?

Adam Pennington (44:02)

She defends herself remarkably well. I mean, what explodes is what's now become known as the Exeter Conspiracy. And the Exeter Conspiracy is given that name because if one believes the conspiracy, the plan was to oust Henry VIII from the throne and replace him with Henry Courtenay, the Marquis of Exeter, who was a grandson of Edward iv. Now, the Exeter Conspiracy, I believe, is it purely theory? I don't believe there was a conspiracy. I think this was a series of families moaning. I think it was moaning really about the world that they inhabited and that that world had changed beyond all recognition. And when Geoffrey Pole is arrested, I mean, it's no understatement to say how serious a matter this was. He could attempt suicide. This is the gravest sin in the 16th century. He attempts suicide, but he provides lots of evidence against his brother Henry, against the Marquis of Exeter. And this then leads to a theory that, well, if they were guilty of treason, then Margaret must have been guilty by association. So this then leads to Margaret's house arrest. She's interrogated by Sir William Fitzwilliam and Thomas Goodrich, the Bishop of Ely, and the examinations of her are extensive. They go on for weeks and weeks and they can't find anything. I mean, they literally say in a letter to Cromwell, it's commented that she's either the most errant traitress who ever lived or a perfect saint. The evidence against her sons is slightly more compelling, actually, and that was something that I was surprised to learn as I was sifting through the evidence. But Margaret, there was very, very little and she defended herself very stoutly.

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Adam Pennington (46:32)

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (47:00)

So she defends herself. Well, she seems innocent. She maintains the her dignity. What then are the circumstances that lead to her death?

Adam Pennington (47:11)

So her son Henry is eventually found guilty of treason. He and the other noblemen are executed. Geoffrey Pole manages to get her pardon from the King, which I describe in the book as, I think, the single biggest surprise decision Henry VIII ever made. Margaret, as I say, is eventually put under house arrest. They can't find anything. And then all of a sudden a tunic arrives in inverted corners. And this tunic, if we believe it to be real, shows the pole Pansy, the Pansy, the flower sigil of the Pole family, intertwining with the Tudor rose. And the inference here was taken that this showed clear evidence that Margaret had this long term plan to marry her only marriageable son Reginald to Mary, Princess Mary, and that they would then rule as Queen and the consort, as it were, and this would then join the houses together. Now, it's incredibly difficult at a distance of 500 years to say, well, firstly, was this tunic genuine? Secondly, did it mean what it was believed to mean? Could it just have been a sign that the families were intertwined, they were both descended from the York line and were related. I am inclined to think that it was a fake and that Cromwell had it commissioned and placed in one of Margaret's households. Because we know this is a man who is not above fabricating evidence. We only have to look at the downfall of Anne Boleyn to know that so much was made up and the fact that nothing can be found against Margaret Pole. And then suddenly this Tunic appears. It all feels a bit too convenient for me. After this, she doesn't go to trial. There is an act of attainder placed against her and she is sentenced to death. And then at that point, she's transferred over to the Tower of London under a sentence of death. But what happens next is really weird because she doesn't die quickly. It's in fact two and a half years that she is an imprisoner in the Tower. That's quite unusual. People are executed normally within a matter of days. I mean, George Boleyn is executed literally two days after his trial. So Margaret's long imprisonment is certainly unusual.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (49:29)

And what, in the end, is the catalyst to her execution on the 27th of May, 1541?

Adam Pennington (49:36)

Well, again, part of me wonders if it is spite, actually, on Henry's part, because Reginald remained continually beyond his control. Margaret is awoken on 27 May, and she's told, effectively, you've got an hour. Today's the day preceding that. What the records tell us is that Henry VIII and his fifth queen, Catherine Howard, who, by the way, records indicate, had sent clothing to Margaret Pole while she was in the Tower. They begin their journey to the north of England. And while they're gone, Henry leaves an order that the remaining prisoners inside the Tower should be cleared out. The meaning of that being that they should be dealt with and that their sentences be carried out. Margaret is awoken on 27 May. She's told that she will be dead within the hour and to prepare herself. Now, this is an age when mores in Brevisa, the sudden death was something that people were so terrified of, and I think it would have been especially difficult for Margaret because she was a deeply devout woman. So for her death to be suddenly thrust upon her would have been both very shocking and denied her. I think the real amount of time that she would have liked to be at ease in sort of body and mind. She is then escorted out of her lodgings, which were probably actually where the Queen's house is now, at the Tower of London. And the reason we say that is that the execution accounts say that she was led from her lodgings directly out onto Tower Green, where a low wooden block was set out. She says prayers for the King and Queen, for Lady Mary, as she would have been spoken of, and Prince Edward, deliberately omitting Elizabeth, Lady Elizabeth, which I think, again, is a real indicator of how Margaret felt about Anne Boleyn. Margaret then kneels. Well, actually, my reading of the evidence was that the block was so Low down that she actually had to lie down. She had to prostrate herself effectively. And this is where things go badly wrong. The regular Tower headsman had gone north with the King. Margaret's executioner was an inexperienced youth, so the records claim, and he badly botches the execution. It takes many strikes of the axe. There is a legend that sees her running around a scaffold being hacked apart. We know that this is a legend because we know that there was no scaffold. The execution was so rushed that there was no scaffold present. It was just a low wooden block on the grass. Basically. Fewer than 100 people were witnesses. And, yeah, I mean, it was a truly appalling end for a woman who was likely guilty of nothing more than the blood in her veins.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (52:24)

And what has the aftermath of the downfall of the Pole family and Margaret's own execution.

Adam Pennington (52:32)

Well, the quietest character in all of this, I think, is Ursula, Margaret's daughter. Reginald is obviously over in Italy, but Ursula was up in Staffordshire living a relatively quiet life. The other figure that I must mention is Margaret's grandson, Henry Pole the Younger, who was the son of Margaret's heir, Henry Baron Montagu. He enters the Tower of London at the age of 10 alongside all of the other arrestees and he vanishes. So I refer to him as the third missing prince in the Tower. We know nothing of what came of this boy. He literally vanishes. But Geoffrey eventually does escape over to Italy. He joins his brother Reginald in Italy, where Geoffrey eventually dies. Reginald, he weathers the storm throughout the rest of Henry VIII's reign. And Edward VI's Mary comes to the throne as Queen Mary I. Reginald returns to England, effectively a sort of a returning, all conquering hero. He arrives into London at the head of 2,000 horses and becomes, I think, the one man in Mary's life who never lets her down. And quite touchingly, they died on the very same day, just eight hours apart. But there's always these lovely slight twists with history. And the twist that I quite enjoy is Dorothy Stafford, who was the daughter of Ursula Pole. She goes on to be a great favorite of Elizabeth I. She marries the widower of Mary Boleyn, which again, I always find quite comical when one considers how much Margaret abhorred the Boleyn family, that her granddaughter would marry the husband of another Boleyn. And it's Dorothy that has this beautiful plaque in Westminster commemorating her ancestry, the fact that she was the granddaughter of Margaret, Countess of Salisbury, the great granddaughter of George, Duke of Clarence. So it's in Margaret's female line that there is this one plaque that commemorates Margaret's life outside of her own. One, which I think is just such a lovely end to Margaret's story that it's Margaret's daughter, the quietest member of the family, the child that then had the son that had the capacity to commemorate the family. It tied it up nicely for me.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (54:47)

And a lovely end to our podcast. Adam, thank you so much for taking us through the tumultuous life of the Paul family. The decisions that are made which seem reckless, those which seem dignified, and those which in the end lead to their downfall, which are not theirs at all. Thank you so much for your time.

Adam Pennington (55:06)

You're very welcome. Thank you again for inviting me on.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (55:10)

Thank you for listening to this episode of But Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. And to my producer, Rob Weinberg, we are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors from History Hit.