Podcast Summary: "The Roma: Resistance & Survival"

Not Just the Tudors
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Dr. Madeline Potter
Release Date: July 7, 2025

Introduction to the Episode

Professor Suzannah Lipscomb opens the episode by highlighting the often-overlooked history of the Roma people, emphasizing their long-standing persecution and resilience across Europe. She introduces Dr. Madeline Potter, a scholar born and raised in post-communist Romania, to discuss her new book, A Traveling History. Together, they delve into the intricate tapestry of Roma history, dispelling myths and shedding light on their enduring spirit.

History and Origin of the Roma

Dr. Madeline Potter begins by tracing the origins of the Roma people, explaining that they originated in northern India and migrated westward around the 11th century. She notes, “The Roma are a group of people who originated in northern India. ... they are a group of South Asian origin” (03:27). This migration led to the diverse Roma communities spread across Europe today.

Language and Cultural Identity

The Romani language, an Indo-Aryan language related to Hindi and descended from Sanskrit, plays a crucial role in maintaining Roma identity. Dr. Potter explains, “The Romani language is an Indo Aryan language... it is related to Hindi and descended from Sanskrit” (04:03). This linguistic connection underscores their South Asian roots, distinguishing them from other nomadic groups in Europe.

Roma vs. Traveller Communities

Professor Lipscomb raises the common misconception of lumping Romani people with Traveller communities. Dr. Potter clarifies the distinctions:

“Romani people, or the Roma more broadly... originated in northern India... They were originally nomadic... They share nomadism with Traveller communities, but they remain distinct cultures.” (03:11)

This differentiation is essential to understanding the unique challenges faced by the Roma compared to indigenous European Travellers.

Persecution in Tudor England: The Egyptians Act

The discussion shifts to Tudor England, where the Roma arrived in the 16th century. Dr. Potter details the severe backlash they faced:

“The Egyptians Act... was passed by Henry VIII in 1530 and it held that all gypsies needed to be expelled from England.” (08:26)

She explains that despite the Act, enforcement was lax due to Roma resistance and limited authorities' interest, allowing many to remain and continue arriving:

“It was very difficult to implement... they resisted themselves, partly because the authorities weren't that bothered to implement widely.” (08:45)

Vagrancy and Further Legislation

Under King Edward VI, the Vagrancy Act further targeted nomadic lifestyles, indirectly affecting the Roma:

“They were going to be captured... enslaved for two years, branded, and if recaptured, enslaved for life.” (09:18)

This legislation was not explicitly racially motivated but disproportionately impacted Roma due to their nomadic way of life.

Stereotypes and Misclassification

Dr. Potter discusses the challenges historians face in identifying Roma in historical records:

“They are often described by their occupations like fortune teller or horse trader, and sometimes labeled as Egyptian, which helps in identification.” (12:03)

However, the lack of consistent terminology makes it difficult to fully trace their history.

Roma in Eastern Europe: Enslavement in Romania

A significant portion of Roma history involves their enslavement in what is now Romania. Dr. Potter outlines:

“From the 14th century to the mid-19th century, Roma were enslaved in Wallachia and Moldavia, owned by churches, monasteries, and noblemen.” (14:46)

She highlights the endurance of Roma culture during this period, including the development of internal conflict resolution systems like the Romani court of justice, the Chris:

“They developed the Chris... to resolve conflicts internally without attracting the ire of owners.” (16:40)

Roma under the Ottoman Empire in Bulgaria

In Bulgaria, the Roma who arrived with the Ottomans faced a unique status:

“Muslim Roma were viewed with suspicion and not allowed to join the Ottoman army, placing them in an outsider status.” (20:59)

This dual marginalization—both religiously and ethnically—further complicated their integration and survival.

Roma in German States and Martin Luther's Views

Dr. Potter sheds light on the pervasive anti-Roma sentiments in German states, influenced by figures like Martin Luther:

“Luther likened Roma to Jews in his anti-Semitic pamphlet, encouraging their expulsion.” (25:44)

She explains that such attitudes persisted, culminating in the horrors of the Romani Holocaust alongside Jewish persecution.

Roma in France and Bohemianism

In France, the Roma were referred to as "Bohemian," a term likely stemming from their association with Bohemia for protection. Dr. Potter notes:

“Bohemianism developed a fascination and fear, associating Roma with freedom and escapism, while the state attempted to suppress their movement.” (29:10)

Efforts to integrate them involved separating men and women into institutions, which often failed due to their nomadic nature.

Cultural Contributions: Flamenco

One of the Roma's significant cultural legacies is Flamenco in Spain. Dr. Potter emphasizes:

“Flamenco arose within Romani communities in Andalusia and is recognized by UNESCO as an intangible heritage.” (36:30)

She points out that while Flamenco is celebrated globally, its Romani roots are often underappreciated.

Representation in Literature: Cervantes' Portrayal

The episode touches upon literary depictions of Roma, specifically Cervantes' portrayal in La Gita Nia. Dr. Potter suggests personal motives behind Cervantes' negative depiction:

“Cervantes may have been influenced by family scandals involving Roma women, leading to his adverse representations.” (38:02)

This reflects broader societal prejudices mirrored in literature.

Roma Migration to the United States

The migration of the Roma to the United States is portrayed as unique and often forgotten. Dr. Potter outlines several waves:

1. Colonial Era: Roma were forcibly shipped as prisoners or indentured servants.
2. Post-Abolition: Following the end of enslavement in Romania.
3. Post-Iron Curtain: After the fall of communism in Eastern Europe.
4. 1960s Migration: Additional waves seeking better opportunities.

She highlights the formation of Afro-Romani communities in places like Louisiana, resulting from intermarriages between Roma and freed African slaves:

“There are about 1 million Roma living in the US today, primarily in California.” (41:33)

Conclusion

Professor Lipscomb summarizes the episode by reflecting on the enduring marginalization and persecution of the Roma, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and understanding their rich history and cultural contributions. She commends Dr. Potter for bringing this often-overlooked narrative to light.

“This has been a very sobering history... but I'm so glad that you're bringing this history to light.” (41:33)

Dr. Potter expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share her research, underlining the significance of such discussions in combating stereotypes and fostering a more inclusive historical narrative.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Madeline Potter: “The Romani language is an Indo Aryan language... it is related to Hindi and descended from Sanskrit.” (04:03)

• Dr. Madeline Potter: “The Egyptians Act... was passed by Henry VIII in 1530 and it held that all gypsies needed to be expelled from England.” (08:26)

• Dr. Madeline Potter: “They developed the Chris... to resolve conflicts internally without attracting the ire of owners.” (16:40)

• Dr. Madeline Potter: “Flamenco arose within Romani communities in Andalusia and is recognized by UNESCO as an intangible heritage.” (36:30)

• Professor Suzannah Lipscomb: “This has been a very sobering history... but I'm so glad that you're bringing this history to light.” (41:33)

Conclusion

This episode of Not Just the Tudors provides an in-depth exploration of the Roma people's history, highlighting their struggles against persecution and their remarkable resilience. Through Dr. Madeline Potter's expertise, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the Roma's cultural identity, historical challenges, and enduring contributions to society. The discussion underscores the importance of acknowledging and preserving the Roma's rich heritage amidst centuries of marginalization.