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Not Just the Tudors
The Roma: Resistance & Survival
00:40:13
An extraordinary people and a culture forged through adversity and survival
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- [00:00]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit. With a historyhit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series, A World Torn, the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward/subscribe. Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. In 1613, Miguel de Cervantes published a curious short story titled La Gita Nia or the Little Gypsy Girl. Coming just eight years after Don Quixote, it tells the story of a beautiful, wise and virtuous Roma dancer named Preciosa. And it marks one of the first literary attempts to grapple with the mystique of and prejudice surrounding the Romani people. Cervantes story is steeped in both admiration and misunderstanding, fiction reflecting a world in which Roma identity had already been distorted by fantasy and fear. But Cervantes was writing in a time when Roma people were being persecuted across Europe. In England they were expelled under Henry VIII's Egyptians Act. In Hungary, Roma children were forcibly taken from their families. In Romania they were enslaved for five centuries. Despite this long history of marginalization, Roma voices have often been spoken about but rarely heard. The archive for centuries has been written by outsiders, monarchs, missionaries, police and novelists, while Roma histories and identities have been flattened into stereotype or rendered invisible. But that is starting to change. Today's guest was born and raised in post communist Romania, and as a Romani, she has experienced a world still scarred by those legacies. Joining me to unpick a thousand years of movement, myth and survival is Dr. Madeline Potter. We'll be talking about her new book, the A Traveling History. I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and and this is not just the Tudors From History hit. Dr. Potter, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:52]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
- [02:55]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Now you start your book evocatively at the Appleby Horse Fair, which is a celebration of Britain's Romani and Traveller community. And they're two groups that some listeners might lump together. So what are the differences and similarities between these two groups?
- [03:11]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, absolutely. So there is this very often common lumping together, as you say, of Romani people and travelers. Romani people, or the Roma more broadly, which are used quite technically to derive from the Romani language. And Roma means. It's a plural noun, it means men or husbands. Now, the Romani language is an Indo Aryan language that means it's related to Hindi and descended from Sanskrit. And that's really the key. The Roma are a group of people who originated in northern India. So they're a group of South Asian origin. Originally, they were nomadic. They migrated out of northern India roughly around the 11th century. We don't have a lot of written records about the early migration of the Roma from northern India westward, though there are various theories as to why this migration happened. But all Romani people, and there is much diversity among Romani people, are descended from those groups that migrated out of northern India. So it's essentially a South Asian group in origin. They were originally nomadic, and this is what they share with traveling communities who are also nomadic, as the name suggests. But traveller usually refers to indigenous European travellers, particularly in a British and Irish context, to Irish travellers, who are the largest community. Now, what's interesting is that during the 19th century, Romani people who had arrived in Britain roughly during the 16th century and continued to live here ended up developing a kind of closeness with the traveling communities. And there was a lot of mixing during the 19th century. So the British Romanes and Irish traveler communities have mixed and do share some cultural codes at the moment. But primarily they remain still very distinct cultures. One again, indigenous European, the other of South Asian origin. And that culture, the language, is shared with other Romani people across Europe and the world.
- [05:23]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And why do you think the history of the Roma, especially their experience of persecution and resilience, remains so unknown?
- [05:35]
Dr. Madeline Potter
I think that's a great question and one I've been asking myself for a long time. And I think there are several factors that come into it, but I do think that terminology does come into it. I think the confusion between Romani people and traveler communities tends to forefront, confront nomadism and essentially erase the kind of racism that Romani people have faced. And it tends to lead to a misunderstanding about who the Roma are. If we don't have the language to talk about challenges, then we don't have the language to talk about history. Then we don't have the language to fix this problem into understanding it. I also do think that it's partly to do with the term Gypsy, which is a really interesting case because there are some debates around the world now, especially in the English speaking world, both in Britain and in North America. As to whether that term is a slur or not, I don't think it is, but I do think there is a general misunderstanding regarding what it means, how it originated, who it referred to. So the term gypsy is actually short for Egyptian and it was associated with Romani people who arrived in Britain during the 16th century who were called Egyptians. It's a misnomer, although across other countries, such as in Spain, for example, the term Gitano also shares that etymology. And it's very likely, again, we don't have written sources, but it's quite likely that it originated from a legend that the Roma have about having spent a lot of time in Egypt. But anyway, in Britain, Egyptian got shortened to gypsy and it was used to refer to Romani people. But then gradually it became associated with other nomadic communities. And then more recently it just took on a whole life of its own where it just became an aesthetic or a vibe. It just became associated with this idea of free spiritedness or wanderlust, which is actually very at odds with traditional Romani community life. So I think not understanding that this term refers to a particular ethnic group rather than a lifestyle tends to then erase the history of that ethnic group. It renders it invisible because there's this tendency to think it's just about vagabonds or wanderers and erase the other particularities that's so interesting.
- [08:14]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
We have to remember our history. So you said there that we have the Roma arriving in Britain in Tudor England in the 16th century. What was the royal reaction?
- [08:27]
Dr. Madeline Potter
It was quite vicious. We had the Egyptians act which was quite quickly passed. So this was passed by Henry VIII in 1530 and it held that all gypsies needed to be expelled from England. And we already. They're some of the very common stereotypes that have followed the Roma to this day. The Egyptians act bans them on account of their felonies, robberies, palmistry and deceit, of course, so this leads to some deportations. But also at the same time, this act was very difficult to implement, partly because the Roma resisted themselves, partly because the authorities weren't that bothered to implemented widely. They remained somewhat just unbothered about the legislation. So it didn't really work. This meant that there were still Romani people in Britain who had arrived and there were still groups who were continuing to arrive. So this then led to another reaction on the part of King Edward VI who succeeded Henry VIII to the throne. And this wasn't specifically targeted to the Roma, but it was the Vagrancy act which very much affected no had a chroma who were associated with this already, with this idea of vagrancy and being vagabonds. So they were going to be captured across the country, enslaved for two years, branded, and if they were recaptured, then they would be enslaved for life and branded again. Again, this wasn't racially motivated specifically to target the Roma, but it did affect them in large proportions due to that specific focus on nomadic lifestyle and nomadic occupations.
- [10:19]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, and I suppose that's interesting because it means that we've got a moment in Tudor England when there is a sort of fear of mobile people, and it taps into all sorts of economic fears around there not being enough work and inflation and too many people and not enough food. And you've got to blame somebody. I mean, we get the sort of witchcraft accusations coming out of the same. Same socioeconomic context. And so it's looking for a scapegoat. And in this case it's people they identify as vagabonds or vagrants which get sort of plastered over the Romani as much as anyone else.
- [11:00]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And they're very difficult to classify. Obviously, we do have quite a lot of records about Romani people in early modern England, but they are very fragmented and they are very scattered. And that's partly because we get a parish record here, we get a pamphlet there, we get literary reference here. But because they move around, they're very difficult to just classify and make sense of. And in a world increasingly concerned with rationalism, with classification, they resist that and they sort of throw that up in quite unsettling ways.
- [11:41]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And some people who have worked with parish registers in identifying people of colour in England in the 16th and 17th centuries have run into problems when it comes to terminology, being sure what they mean when they put blackamoor or don't put a label at all. Is there a similar problem with trying to identify Romani people in this period?
- [12:03]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, to a certain extent, yeah. So sometimes they are likely to be around many people, depending on the occupation listed. So stuff like fortune teller or the usual horse trader, sometimes they are described, sometimes we get the label Egyptian, which tends to help identify. Yeah, it can be quite difficult. Another thing that helps is now there are particular names, surnames that are very common to Romani people in Britain. So some of them who've traced their ancestry are able to find those names popping up in records, which, again, isn't 100% giveaway, because these names are not necessarily exclusive, but they can give that indication. But we do also have. Yeah, we do have various accounts. So, for example, we have gentry account books. We have Sir John Arundel of Lanha and Cornwall, who we know that paid some money in 1504 to the Egyptians when they danced before him. So definite references to Egyptians.
- [13:16]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And how were the views of Romani people in the British Isles exported as we get into the period of colonization?
- [13:29]
Dr. Madeline Potter
That's a really, really interesting question. So some of them were forcibly shipped away, banished, particularly, interestingly enough, to Scandinavia. So there are groups of Scandinavian Romanese who were descended from those early Romanichels, as they would be called, because Roma is a very big word in a way. We think of the Roma as an ethnic minority, but the Roma is a big group with loads of different ethnic minorities within it. So there are different subgroups. And Romanachals are usually the ones who found in Britain and the English speaking world, including Australia and the United States. And I think in a way that takes me to that question of colonialism as well, because a lot of them were forcibly shipped to the colonies. Sometimes we have a record of Henry Lovello, who was sent to Australia on board one of the earliest fleets under a conviction, but then proved to be actually wrong and he returned to Britain with a pardon, and also, yeah, to the colonies in the United States.
- [14:40]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thinking about elsewhere in Europe, what evidence do we have that the Roma were enslaved in the early modern period?
- [14:47]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Enslavement happened in Romania, essentially. Well, on what is today the territory of Romania. Romania didn't obviously exist as a state, so they were enslaved in Wallachia and Moldavia, not as much in Transylvania, but a little bit on the borders with Wallachia. So we do have, in Eastern Europe, the Roma arrive a bit earlier than they do in Western Europe. So in Romania we have records that date roughly to the 14th century. And one of the earliest record Romani presence in Romania is them listed as property. And the system was they belonged either to churches or to monasteries. And this is what we get in that very early record. And sometimes to noblemen, to boyars. The period of enslavement continues all the way to the mid 19th century when we get a whole abolitionist movement. So there are translations of Uncle Tom's Cabin into Romanian to try and move Romania's own abolitionist system. But from that early record in the 14th century all the way to the mid 19th century, they stay within that state of enslavement. And we have records. Sometimes we have magazines publishing slave auctions, sometimes we have foreign travelers to Romania accounting, so giving us records of what they've seen. There's a famous one by the Hermit of Gauteng a German traveler to Wallachia who sees a Romani girl essentially being bought and sold, and he's absolutely appalled by it. So we do have these accounts that kind of take us from the 14th century all the way to the mid 19th of. Yeah, of chattel enslavement, essentially.
- [16:35]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I mean, how did they survive such long term enslavement in Romania?
- [16:41]
Dr. Madeline Potter
That's really, really interesting. So they actually developed their own system. For example, obviously if you are enslaved and you have a fight with your mum or your dad or your anybody, what you don't want to do is to attract attention and attract the wrath, the ire of the owner, because then you will get punished, separated, sold off, perhaps even killed. So that meant that when conflict arose, they had to develop this system of internal conflict resolution, which eventually developed into what's known as the Romani court of justice called the Chris, which exists to this day. It emerged in Romania over the span of the period of enslavement, but now it's been taken worldwide by those particular groups. So I know that they have it in South America, for example, which is really interesting. And that's just one example of that sense of facilitating and strengthening community. So trying to form those pockets of resistance by strengthening community. The Romani language plays a really important role in this as well. Although there is a group of Romani people in Romania who were enslaved in the mines, probably because of being forcefully settled for so long there, they've lost the Romani language and now speak a kind of dialect of Romanian. So that doesn't always work. But broadly speaking, the Romani languages is one of those ways of forming resistance within the community and then opting for internal strengthening of relationships.
- [18:34]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And if we're thinking about Eastern Europe, we can also think about Bulgaria, which from the 14th century was under the Ottoman Empire. So I'm wondering, did the multicultural, multi ethnic Ottoman Empire treat the Bulgarian Roma any differently?
- [18:52]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Not quite, no. So that's a really interesting situation as well. Essentially, we don't have very, very clear records as to when exactly the Roma arrived in Bulgaria, but we do know that a did arrive with the Ottomans roughly in the 14th century and when they arrived they had already embraced Islam. Now, in theory, this should be a good thing for Romani people who were part of the Ottoman Empire, because the Ottomans, they saw identity in religious terms and they were dedicated to upholding the Islamic faith. So this led to a particular type of administration within the Ottoman Empire along religious lines, which meant that non Muslim communities were given certain degree of autonomy to govern themselves. Now these weren't systematic administration units until later on in the 19th century, but they existed nonetheless. But within this system, the Muslim Roma didn't enjoy that privileged position because they were viewed with suspicion. They were viewed with suspicion for being Roma. So because they were Muslim, they were not citizens of the groups that were non Muslim and administratively somewhat independent. But because they were Roma, then they were given a unique administrative unit based on ethnic grounds because it was believed that they would favor being Romanian, being therefore all the stereotypes associated with so many people, lazy, thievish and so on and so forth, that they would favor that over their religion, over being Muslim. So they were for a very long time not allowed to be part of the Ottoman army. So they had this kind of in between status of being outsiders from every, every point of view, from wherever you looked.
- [21:00]
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- [21:24]
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- [21:28]
Dr. Madeline Potter
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- [21:30]
Tristan Hughes
Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast. Cast from History hit twice a week. Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History hit.
- [22:11]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Now, in your chapter on Hungary and Austria, you explore something that I think has become part of the stereotype of Romani communities, but also, in this instance, happens to be true, which is a great fondness for gold. Why has gold always been of such importance to Roma communities?
- [22:33]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, yeah, that is one of the ones that is true. We do have a great fondness for gold. It's partly to do with being historically nomadic because if you travel around, first of all, you don't have a lot of space for storage. Obviously, you're traveling in caravans, you're traveling with people, you're not going to have a lot of space. So that means that you tend to wear your wealth on yourself. And obviously gold comes into that. The other issue is that if you travel across territories, you're going to need to be able to trade, you're going to have to be able to exchange goods. And gold is a. Is a huge currency. So it's that kind of nomadic currency that you can take with you everywhere and it's going to work anywhere. It's a universal currency. I mean, even to this day, I know that people who trade currency, which I know nothing of about, but I know that gold is being exchanged for pounds and dollars and so on and so forth. So it's that sense of wearing your wealth on you and also having the currency. But then there's another thing as well, which is that Romani culture has a fondness for opulence and displays of aesthetics and beauty that many non Roma viewers is a bit over the top. So then gold is right at the crux of all these, the practical and the aesthetic. It's social capital and literal capital. So kind of perfect.
- [24:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Now, when we get to the German states, you note that we've got records from the 15th century documenting the arrival of the Roma. How did some Roma attempt to secure safe passage and hospitality in Germany?
- [24:30]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, so there are various accounts in Germany and other places as well that say that they presented themselves as pilgrims because that meant that they were on a spiritual quest. Often it would be to do with, yeah, reenacting the flight from Egypt, which ties in with the whole Egyptian legend as well. Records showed that they often did either present themselves or perceived as pilgrims, which often led to them being welcomed temporarily and offered safe passage, though this usually came with a kind of expiry date. But presenting yourself as a pilgrim rather than just as a quote, unquote vagrant just aimlessly wandering around, tended to provide them with a safer and more welcoming reception because of those religious spiritual associations, like they're doing something good.
- [25:32]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I imagine, though, that that might play into the answer to my next question, which is, what did the great Protestant reformer Martin Luther have to say about the Roma?
- [25:44]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Well, he compared them to the Jews.
- [25:50]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
He wasn't very nice about the Jews at all.
- [25:54]
Dr. Madeline Potter
He wrote this tremendously anti Semitic pamphlet called the Jews and the Lies. And there he was instructing the German population to treat the Jews, quote, unquote. Again, the gypsies, saying that both were acting as if they were lords in the country when actually they were just nothing. So kind of, yeah, associating them together and encouraging them to be chased out and not seen as staples or lords, as he puts it.
- [26:28]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Did attitudes in the German states continue to reflect that sort of stance?
- [26:33]
Dr. Madeline Potter
It did. Gradually, both the Jewish population And the Romani population became associated with various stereotypes, with cultural caricatures. There are. So in the 19th century, there's a famous fairy tale revival that we often think of the Brothers Grimm as representing it. But there were others too, and there was a fairy tale collector and writer called Ludwig Bechstein who collected one of these stories where there's this absolutely horrific, evil Romani woman who kidnaps a young princess. So this idea of a child theft becomes quite, quite popular. And then I think, obviously what we think sometimes when we think of history, when it comes to Jewish people and Romani people in Germany, it's difficult to avoid the topic of the Holocaust or the Samudaripen, as Romani Holocaust is often referred to. And obviously they were the two groups that were persecuted on reasons of race and targeted for the Final Solution. So I think there's this kind of culmination in the 20th century with the rise of National Socialism and ethnic nationalism. But the sees the two groups remaining together, associated in that public imagination and targeted.
- [27:53]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
When we come to France, I've come across cases involving the Romani in my own research, and I suppose there's a parallel to them being called Gypsies and thinking that that derives from being Egyptian. In France, they referred to as the Bohemian. And in the cases I was looking at in the south of France, we get many women being told off by Protestant authorities for going to visit the Bohemian and going to have their fortune told, their palms read. Or there's one case with a woman who's told she is of a good father and mother, would be very happy soon married and would have five children, which is just the sort of fortune you weren't told in the 16th century.
- [28:39]
Dr. Madeline Potter
If you're a woman.
- [28:40]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And anyway, so this becomes a real point of disorder between women of these southern French towns and the male Protestant authorities who want them to stop visiting the Bohemian. Do we see that this kind of reaction also to the Roma in France more generally? I mean, this is a period where the state in France is becoming increasingly oppressive and centralized. I imagine the Roma might not fare that well.
- [29:10]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because all you're mentioning as well is it reminded me of similar reactions in the United States as well, with the banning of fortune telling. But, yeah, we do get an attempt to settle the Roma. They're sent to the galleys. There are attempts to just integrate them into this kind of newly forming sense of the French state, to kind of stop the movement, quite literally. So they're often separated, they're often sent to what's called hospitals but those are kind of Avala Lettre, Dickensian institutions where the children are supposed to be brought as French citizens, the men are sent to the galleys, they're separated from the women, but they tend to escape, they tend to go back, they tend to. Again, with a nomadic population, it can be quite difficult to implement these things, partly because then they cross the borders, then they come back and there's a deliberate attempt to resist these marginalization tactics. But at the same time, what we get in France, and you mentioned the term Bohemianism, which is really interesting, it's quite likely that it comes from the fact that a group of Romani people who arrived in France were carrying a letter of protection from King Sigismund of Bohemia. But then a whole fashion, a whole fascination with the idea of Bohemianism develops. So there's the sense of needing to stop the movement, needing to integrate them on the one hand, but on the other hand looking towards them with these fantasy ideas of being free, of being liberated, of being of existing outside society in all the ways that people can fantasize about when. When they feel oppressed within their own family structures, when. And they're caught in the rut of everyday existence, I think. So that tends to develop in France, a kind of fascination and fear.
- [31:17]
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- [31:47]
Tristan Hughes
Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History hit twice a week. Join me, Tristan Hughes as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History hit.
- [32:28]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, that's so interesting, isn't it? Because I mean, the 16th century is a period in which there is much more geographic mobility than there has been. But still comparative to today, people are largely born and live and die in their same parish. And I've always thought there must have been Something quite claustrophobic about that degree of intimate knowledge. People know you and they know. I mean, maybe it's comforting and wonderful as well, but also they, you know, they know you intimately. And the whole system of creditors based on one's personal reputation. And by contrast, the bohemian look to be outside that structure. They seem to have freedom.
- [33:11]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, yeah. And I think that. I think that's happening in Britain as well. If we look at the literal presentations of Romani people in the early modern period, I'm thinking of Afrobench, the Rover or Ben Johnson and the Mask of Gypsies and. And all of those kind of performing of that Romani identity, performing of that movement almost as if it's inhabiting and indulging in that fantasy of. Of not being bound to a particular place, of kind of. It's. It's escapism, I think, in. In a lot of ways.
- [33:42]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And if we think now getting quite far to the west of Spain in, I suppose there, we see an attempt to impose religious uniformity that predates the centralization of Louis, the Catalyst France. We've got Ferdinand and Isabelle pressing religious uniformity by conquering Granada from the Muslims, by expelling the Jews. How are the Romani affected by this drive?
- [34:10]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, that's a really, really good question. Because on the one hand, being Roma isn't a religion, so they're not as affected by it as Muslims or Jews. From that particular point of view, a lot of them do end up embracing Catholicism, although there's a lot of kind of conversion to Protestantism among Romani communities as well. So today, I think in Spain, one of the largest communities of Protestants are made up by Romani people.
- [34:38]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And is there any thoughts on why that is the case? It's obviously complex why people convert, but. But is there any thinking?
- [34:46]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, I think very often with Romani communities, when they embrace kind of Protestant movements or more contemporary kind of what people broadly call neo Protestant movements, at least in Eastern Europe, there's a kind of drive towards the promise of wealth that's driven by the Protestant work ethic, that. The kind of sense of escaping poverty, systemic poverty and systemic marginalization through that.
- [35:12]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Sense of, okay, so they're going for the kind of prosperity gospel end of things, rather than actually, this is a religion that's based on suffering.
- [35:20]
Dr. Madeline Potter
That makes sense, broadly. Yeah.
- [35:24]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So in other words, you're suggesting that when it comes to this sort of religious uniformity, actually for the vast majority of the time they can assimilate into Spanish society and aren't kind of the focus of the Inquisition as converted Jews might be, for example.
- [35:45]
Dr. Madeline Potter
So 1749, we get what's called the Gran Radada de Gitano. So the great Gypsy roundup, by which the Spanish monarchy essentially leads to the death of some 120,000 Romani people who are arrested, then eventually they are released. But this is targeted on ethnic grounds rather than religious grounds. So the persecution of Romani people in Spain tends to be ethnically motivated rather than. And religiously motivated, because, broadly speaking, Romani people have tended to adopt the religion of the country where they settle or travel through. Although there are remnants of Hinduism that translate culturally.
- [36:25]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
What sort of musical legacy have the Roma created, particularly in Spain?
- [36:31]
Dr. Madeline Potter
I think that's another one where we have the stereotypes that are somewhat true, although I don't think it's in the blood of Romani people. It's that Romani people learn music from a very, very early age. But Romani communities are tremendously fond of music and have developed some of the world's most impressive musical traditions, particularly, I think, flamenco in Spain, which arose broadly in Romani communities. It does have influences from Arabic and Jewish music. It's not exclusive, especially today, to Roman Romani people, but it arose within Romani communities and then became practiced more broadly during the 19th century. But it started pretty early on with the arrival of Romani people in Spain. And, yeah, it's recognized as one of the UNESCO intangible heritage legacies of humanity. So, yeah, flamenco is. And it's interesting because today flamenco is seen as this massive tourism site in Spain, and very often there's little recognition of its Roman history and its Romani roots and how it originated within these Gitano communities in southern Spain, primarily in Andalusia.
- [37:52]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And I started by talking about Cervantes and his negative depictions of gypsies. What's the story there?
- [38:03]
Dr. Madeline Potter
So we have the story of Maria da Cabrera, who's said to be this first Romani woman whose name we actually know within Spanish history. And she was a dancer. He traveled around. And then she became the object of affection of a duke called Don Diego, and they had an affair, and they had a son who was known as El Gitano, obviously a bastard son whom the duke actually tried to look after as best he could. Could. But then obviously, the apple didn't fall too far from the tree, and he inherited this kind of appetite for affairs and seduction. And then it's said that he started a very scandalous affair with the aunt of Miguel de Cervantes in 1529. So then perhaps Cervantes is taking his revenge in that novella about them. When it comes to.
- [38:57]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So it's all personal.
- [38:58]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Yeah, all personal, though, again, these are speculative because we don't have. We're tapping into oral history and we're tapping into speculations that have made it sometimes into biographies.
- [39:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Finally, then, can we talk about the Roma emigrating from Europe to the US and what kind of life and prejudice, again, they experience there?
- [39:22]
Dr. Madeline Potter
So what's really, really interesting about the situation of Doroma in the US is that it's unique from the point of view of how do Roma ended up. It doesn't follow the usual pattern of migration from India through to westward, but it's entangled with European migration to the U.S. particularly European colonialism. From the very early stages of colonialism, Romani people are either, as I mentioned, already forcibly shipped to the colonies, sometimes as prisoners, sometimes as indentured servants, sometimes they sign themselves for indentured servitude in exchange for a passage to what they believe could be a better life there. We have, on Columbus's third voyage, we have names that are followed by degipto, so of Egypt, which are clearly references to Romani people. People. Then we have French Louisiana receiving loads of shipments of expelled Romani people from France. We have, again, parish records there. We know of cases where they've intermarried. There's an Afro Romani community that's formed around Louisiana as well, emerging from intermarriages between Romani people and freed African slaves. So there is this invisible. There's this underbelly of Romani people being made into tools of European colonization of the United States. That's been entirely forgotten, I think, and I've been trying to excavate. But then also after the abolition of enslavement on the territories of Romania in the mid 19th century, there's another wave of migration of Romani people to the States. And then after the fall of Iron Curtain, yet another wave of migration. And before that. Yeah, also in the 1960s. So that there are all these constant waves of migration to the point that There are about 1 million Roma living in the US today, primarily in California.
- [41:33]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Wow, that's fascinating. Well, this has been a very sobering history because it seems, as with so many groups that are slightly different in terms of their values or their beliefs or their behavior, the treatment has been one of marginalization and persecution in great or small ways. But I'm so glad that you're bringing this history to light and that you've shared your research with me on this podcast.
- [42:06]
Dr. Madeline Potter
Thank you. You. I'm so thankful to you for having me. It's been a real pleasure talking to you about it. So thank you very much.
- [42:22]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History. Hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo, who edited the this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line at notjusthetors@historyhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors From History. Hit.
- [42:58]
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