Not Just the Tudors — Tudor True Crime: Europe's Most Murderous Dynasty

Podcast: Not Just the Tudors (History Hit)
Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Episode: Tudor True Crime: Europe's Most Murderous Dynasty
Date: August 28, 2025
Guest: Professor Stuart Carroll, University of York

Episode Overview

This episode, part of a series on true crime in early modern Europe, dives into the notorious Guise family of France—rivals to the Tudors, entangled with the Stuarts, and central figures in a century wracked by violence, political intrigue, and religious conflict. Professor Suzannah Lipscomb hosts Professor Stuart Carroll, a leading historian on violence in early modern France and the Guise family. Together they unravel how the Guises shaped and were shaped by vendettas, feuds, religion, and a relentless pursuit of power, culminating in massacres, wars, and assassinations that redefined Europe.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Rise of the Guise Dynasty

[03:21–06:04]

• Background: Claude de Guise, son of the Duke of Lorraine, became integral to the French court and married into royal circles, starting the family's ascent.
• Elevation to Power: With royal support, Claude's family gained governorships and a duchy, cementing the Guises as near-princes in France.
• Notable Descendants:
  • Marie de Guise: Mary, Queen of Scots' mother (linking France and Scotland).
  • François de Guise: Renowned military leader, “Butcher of Vassy”.
  • Charles de Guise: Cardinal and political strategist.

“King François I had elevated a family who would dominate French history for the next hundred years.”
— Suzannah Lipscomb [05:47]

2. Violence, Vendetta, and Social Relations

[06:12–08:19]

• Why Study Violence? Carroll’s fascination began with social dynamics—violence as a lens into how people related, feuded, or reconciled.
• Vendetta Culture: The Guise history is shaped as much by feuds as by formal politics.

“Violence leaves records, it leaves bodies...Social relations through violence and the subject of violence, that's what I got into.”
— Stuart Carroll [06:51]

3. Wars of Religion: Politics vs. Religion

[08:19–09:52]

• Interwoven Causes: Religious antagonism was critical, but local politics and competing power structures were often decisive in driving conflict.
• Instrumentalisation of Violence: Political motivations frequently determined if, when, and whom to kill.

“Recent research is tending to show that the reason why the Reformation in France is so violent...is local. And that must mean political...It’s the politics which is instrumentalizing the violence.”
— Stuart Carroll [08:47]

4. The Guise under François II & the Amboise Conspiracy

[09:23–12:33]

• Regency and Powerplay: The Guise rescued and ran the monarchy after Henry II’s death.
• Amboise Conspiracy (1559–60): A failed Protestant and Bourbon plot to assassinate the Guise resulted in brutal repression and a strategic shift toward religious toleration.
• Murder or Justice? Views on Guise violence diverged—traitor’s punishment or tyrannical bloodshed?

5. Protestant Political Thought and Assassination

[14:00–15:52]

• Protestant Radicals: Inspired by notions of legitimate tyrannicide, Protestant minorities targeted Guise members and officials for assassination.
• Mutual Martyrdom: Both sides fostered narratives of victimization and righteous vengeance.

“French Protestants are developing a political thought which sees it as legitimate to topple and kill tyrants...you begin to get this use of political assassination...”
— Stuart Carroll [14:24]

6. Massacre of Vassy (1562): Spark to War

[17:01–19:12]

• Event: Guise troops slaughtered Protestant worshippers, igniting the first French War of Religion.
• Blame and Legacy: Guise claimed provocation, but most European Protestants blamed them for deliberate atrocities.
• “Massacre” in Language: The word gains its political-ideological connotation at Vassy.

“His men...butcher 30, 40, 50 women and children... The massacre is a very key event.”
— Stuart Carroll [18:21]

7. Civil Wars: Entrenchment, Revenge, and Polarisation

[23:09–25:55]

• Escalation: Ongoing wars hardened positions, making moderation nearly impossible.
• Vendetta Oaths: The Guise formalized revenge with oaths to pursue Protestant leaders across generations.
• Psychological Warfare: Narratives of enmity and stories of martyrdom became political weapons.

“They [the Guise] swear vengeance. And memories of that begin to dominate their political thinking.”
— Stuart Carroll [25:07]

8. St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (1572)

[26:24–32:16]

• Dual Nature: An elite-driven plot to kill Protestant leaders spiraled into widespread slaughter by radicalized city militias.
• Modern Parallels: Carroll compares the organized, ideological violence of 16th-century Paris to 20th-century pogroms.
• Material Interests: Killers often had both ideological and personal gains (e.g., property seizure).

“People are not just killed, they're eviscerated... this is something which looks forward to the violence of the 20th century...”
— Stuart Carroll [30:58]

9. The Catholic League and the War of the Three Henries

[33:53–36:25]

• Founder: Henri I du Guise (“Scarface”) formed the League in opposition to Protestant succession and moderate royal policy.
• Radicalism and Revolution: The Guise allied with radical Catholic urban factions and pushed for elected monarchy.
• Guise Assassinations (1588): In a coup-countercoup, Henry III had Henri and Louis de Guise murdered, trying to reclaim autocratic power.

“Radical Catholicism offers them a way back in... they're going to elect their own king, who is a good Catholic...”
— Stuart Carroll [35:18]

10. Enmity, Quarrels, and Historical Change

[37:22–41:01]

• Enmity as Identity: Strong opposition and grievance fueled cohesion and action.
• “Quarrel”: In this era, a quarrel signified existential threat—a rationale for lethal violence, not merely a minor dispute.
• Violence Trends: Contrary to narratives of steady decline, violence often intensified during state weakness and social upheaval.

“When people have quarrels in the 16th and 17th century, these are akin to feuds or really public hostilities, and they're very serious.”
— Stuart Carroll [38:41]

11. Judging the Guise: Violence as Historical Context

[42:27–43:22]

• Question of Perspective: The Guise were products of their time—a world shaped by insecurity, mistrust, and the ready recourse to violence.
• Civic Breakdown: Civil wars fostered polarization and brutality; moderation was often untenable.

“Civil wars are not conducive to moderation and to toleration, and they simply harden their position. So the answer to that is avoiding civil conflict in the first place.”
— Stuart Carroll [42:57]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Guise’s Place in History:
  “Here today to talk about the Guises and to set their actions in a wider European context of enmity and violence.”
  — Suzannah Lipscomb [05:53]

• On the Massacre of Vassy
  “He tries to justify himself and say, well, you know, it wasn’t my fault, I was provoked...But the massacre is a very key event.”
  — Stuart Carroll [18:03]

• On Motivation and Modern Parallels
  “The wars of religion doesn't look back. It looks forward in many ways. It's the first ideological modern civil war that looks forward to modern conflicts.”
  — Stuart Carroll [31:21]

• On Historical Judgment
  “What would you do in their situation?...as the civil wars go on, they tend...to harden their position.”
  — Stuart Carroll [42:37]

Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:21–06:04| Guise family origins, rise at French court | | 06:12–08:19| Why study violence & vendetta; social relations | | 08:19–09:52| Politics and religion in French conflict | | 09:23–12:33| Guise power under François II; Amboise Conspiracy | | 14:00–15:52| Protestant assassination; new political ideas | | 17:01–19:12| Massacre of Vassy, birth of “massacre” | | 23:09–25:55| Civil wars: polarization, vengeance | | 26:24–32:16| St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre; ideological & popular violence | | 33:53–36:25| Catholic League, War of the Three Henries | | 37:22–41:01| Enmity, quarrels, rising violence | | 42:27–43:22| Judging the Guises within their historical context |

Final Thoughts

Professor Lipscomb and Professor Carroll vividly demonstrate how the Guise family’s bloody legacy was as much a product of early modern France’s shifting society as it was of personal ambition or religious fervor. Vendettas, feuds, and enmity weren’t aberrations but woven into the fabric of power and identity. Their story is not just one of murder and mayhem, but of the changing nature of violence itself—a harbinger of the ideological and political battles to come.

For more on true crime in Tudor and early modern history, revisit previous episodes on Christopher Marlowe, Amy Dudley, and Thomas Overbury — and stay tuned for more riveting histories to come!