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- [00:03]
A
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit, the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. It was just after 2 o' clock in the morning on 10th February, 1567 in Edinburgh. A deafening explosion shattered the still night air. The blast was so powerful, it was heard across the city. A house at Kirkville had been blown apart. When people rushed to the scene, they found not charred remains, but a mystery. In a nearby orchard, beneath a pear tree, lay two bodies. One was Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, the king consort of Scotland, husband to Mary, Queen of Scots. The other was his servant. Neither showed a mark from the explosion. No burns, no broken bones. Darnley had been strangled or perhaps suffocated before the gunpowder ever went off. Who killed him? His ambitious rivals, the Earl of Bothwell, who would soon marry his widow. Or was the queen herself somehow involved? The murder of Lord Darnley has haunted Scottish history for more than four centuries. It's a story of love turned rancid, of power, jealousy and betrayal, and of a death that changed the course of a kingdom. Darnley's downfall had been long in the making. Handsome, vain and dangerously entitled, he'd once swept Mary off her feet. But within a year, he conspired in one of the most shocking acts ever witnessed in a royal court. The brutal murder of Mary's secretary, David Rizzio. Stabbed more than 50 times before the pregnant queen's eyes, that act of violence would set the stage for his own. Less than 12 months later, Darnley was dead. Blown up, strangled and silenced. But by whom and why remain questions that no one has ever been able to answer. But don't worry, today we will be answering them. A couple of years ago, I spoke to the author, Denise Miner, about the murder of Rich, a story she retold brilliantly in her novel of the same name. Today, Denise returns to unravel the next chapter in this dark and tangled saga, the murder of Lord Darnley and how it brought down Mary, Queen of Scots. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from history hit. Denise, welcome back.
- [02:41]
B
So nice to see you again.
- [02:42]
A
Always a pleasure. So let's remind our listeners who Darnley was, both in terms of bloodline and character. Please.
- [02:53]
B
Lord Darnley is a very handsome man. That's the thing you have to bear in mind, because apart from that and apart from his bloodline, which is both, he is an heir to the English throne, he is an heir to the Scottish throne, and Mary, Queen of Scots, fancies him to bits. And he's her cousin. And counter to Elizabeth's wishes, she marries him very unwisely, and she says, he is the finest long man I have ever seen. But what he doesn't realize, he's very, very young at the time when they get married, and it's quite. She doesn't really seek the permission or advice of Catherine de Medici or Elizabeth. These very strong women that she's in touch with, that she speaks to regularly, that she depends on their support. She just marries them. But being beyond the beautiful exterior, Lord Darnley has a lot going on. He's incredibly damaged. His father, Lord Lennox, is a very, very dark man. And probably by the time they get married, Lord Darnley has syphilis. He's about 18. He is known as a man who, will put it about, he's sleeping with men and women. He's drunk a lot of the time, he's incredibly vulgar, and he's un, unbelievably petulant. We think we know petulant royals who are in a huff. We don't know anything compared to Lord Darnley. So she marries him, and almost instantly they get pregnant. And he is Catholic, but he's quite tolerant and he's quite, you know, he's not forcing it on the Protestant country of Scotland. And neither of them are particularly. They're still trying to keep in with Elizabeth, really, because they want. What they really want is for Mary to be the heir to Elizabeth, to get the throne of England as well. And that's a Protestant country, and they're Catholic, so they're tiptoeing around. Darnley is so out of control that he instantly goes in a huff. He wants the crown for himself. He doesn't want to be told what to do. And he conspires with a whole lot of nobles to kill Mary's secretary, David Rizzio, in front of her in a really brutal, violently. When she's six months pregnant in her private chambers.
- [05:18]
A
Yes. So we've got this picture of this man who is, as you say, petulant, clearly ambitious, clearly narcissistic, and it turns out, murderous. So why David Rizzio, Mary's secretary? What's his role in the story? What do you think? Darnley hoped he'd achieve by murdering Rizzio.
- [05:39]
B
Well, traditionally, they were trying to break the links that Mary had with Catholic Europe because Rizzio is Catholic. Also, they're trying to reassert their authority over Mary because Rizzio is her pal. They spend a lot of time together. He's in touch with the courts of Europe. Darnley feels that he has been pushed out significantly. David Rizzio has Darnley's seal, so he is signing documents on behalf of Darnley because Darnley is a holdout. He wants the full crown. He wants to be able to override Mary. And she says, no, you can't have that, but I do need your seal on documents, because she has declared him the king consort. If they get rid of Rizzio, then Mary will turn to Darnley and she will be more malleable and just easier to control, because at the moment, she's got her busy mate there, and the two of them are facing the world together, and they really want her more vulnerable, especially if she goes into her confinement. And they want her to reinstate a lot of the exiled lords. They want her to give Darnley the full crown so that he can override her. And they want Protestantism re established as the national faith in Scotland.
- [06:52]
A
Do you think there's an element of sexual jealousy there? Because there are some suggestions that Darnley and Rizzio are having an affair. And then there are other contemporary accounts that suggest that Darnley thinks that maybe Mary's baby is Rizzio's.
- [07:06]
B
I mean, I don't think for a minute that Darnley believed that David Rizzio was the father of James vi. James VI is the color of the moon. So when he comes out, there really should be. No, his dad's not an Italian guy. His skin is almost tartan, but that slur continues. And I think it's just because she is a monarch. She's female, she's young, she's beautiful. And all the accounts that you hear about her are very much male, gazy. They're very much. He wanted another boyfriend. You know, she likes dresses. And actually, she's running a really complicated country that she's not that familiar with. She hasn't grown up here, and she's doing very complicated things. She almost gets what she wants. She almost gets Elizabeth to make her the heir to the throne of England. She's quite a savvy mover. But they're always talking about, you know, she wanted ribbons. She liked having her hair done all she cares about is going to dances and, you know, just all those kind of, like, minimizers and gendered kind of sexual slurs. But the big, big one, of course, is about her sexual behavior. So as soon as you hear a sexual slur or slut shaming of Mary, Queen of Scots, you have to ask yourself, would someone in that situation take that chance? People not gonna sleep with a servant when she's just about to have an heir. You could die giving birth. She's not gonna sleep with somebody on the off chance. And when the baby's born, I mean, he very obviously is Lord Darnley's son, but there are a lot of rumours about her. There's always rumors about her sexual behavior.
- [08:49]
A
It's so interesting you say that because, you know those letters that were recently found in Cypher, that had been Mary's. One of the things that came out of the. The deciphering of those letters was quite how politically savvy she was at a time when all the reports about her are, oh, she keeps complaining about how cold and uncomfortable she is. And actually, that's all just cover for the fact that she's politicking all across the international stage. And you're saying the same thing going on here.
- [09:16]
B
And for her age.
- [09:17]
A
Yes, yeah.
- [09:19]
B
And for her age, all the commentators and all the people around her with power are men. And she's a young, beautiful woman. Think about the way beautiful young women are treated now. It's really not that different. And imagine, those young, beautiful women were in charge of a country and a religion, but she is very clearly. She grew up under Catherine de Medici. You know, she grew up in Versailles, so she's very savvy and she understands what her job is.
- [09:49]
A
The murder of Rizzio is extraordinarily vicious, and we've obviously talked it through in some depth before, but can we just kind of recapitulate why it has to.
- [09:57]
B
Be so brutal, the murder of Rizzio? Every single one of the nobles that were there had to stab him so that nobody could get done for it. That was the story that comes from Plutarch. I mean, they didn't read an awful lot. So Parallel Lives in Plutarch, he talks about the life of Caesar. So, I mean, I think they took it from that. Very obviously, it's a noble scheme that they've taken from that, but really, they were going to blame it on Darnley, but the reason it is so bloody, I think, is I think they wanted her to miscarry. I don't think they Wanted her to have that baby. And, you know, women who were pregnant, very little was understood. JFK could give them a run for their money now, thinking that babies are in placentas. But, I mean, even less was known about pregnant women. And they were treated with tremendous suspicion. You had your confinement the last three months of pregnancy. You were supposed to go off and hide in a darkened room because nobody really understood that much about giving birth. And the idea that they would do this in front of a six month pregnant woman and expected to have no effect on her. I think they really wanted her to miscarry that baby.
- [11:05]
A
So what did the murder do for Darnley and Mary's relationship?
- [11:09]
B
The murder actually just creates such a bad atmosphere. The echoes of that follow all the way through for the rest of their lives. He convinces Darnley the turn on the conspirators is so Scottish. They've all got contracts about who's getting what when this happens. So, you know, they've got contract terms. No one trusts anyone. So Darnley goes back on his word and he teams up with Mary. At a certain point in the weekend. Mary keeps telling him, they're going to kill me and then they're going to kill you. They'll have to kill you. Think about it. And at some point, I think he realizes this is going to happen. So he abandons the conspiracy and all of the conspirators who are then lifelong enemies of his and hate him. And he makes one very particular enemy, which is Lord Morton, who never, ever forgives him and is a very venomous character and will ultimately have a big hand in his downfall. The people who murder Darnley are basically all the people he turned on during the Rizzio conspiracy. He turns on all the conspirators and escapes with Mary and they go to Dunbar, raise an army, come back to Edinburgh, and she retakes the crown.
- [12:26]
A
So do you have a feeling that Mary is being strategic here? I mean, is she just defending herself? Or do you think she has a sense that by way, staged reconciliation, she's turning, you know, the daggers towards Darnley?
- [12:44]
B
I don't think she is trying to turn them again. I think she's panicking. What she needs is she needs Darnley to see that the baby is his. She needs him ready to claim the baby is his and say that it's not a bastard. Because if the baby is a bastard, if she knows there were all these sexual slurs, and if Darnley doesn't admit that the baby is his baby, then they will kill it as soon as it is born. And so I think that's why she needs Darnley with her.
- [13:12]
A
When the Scottish nobles who have worked with Darnley to kill Rizzio now turn their attention to conspiring against Darnley, what are they trying to achieve?
- [13:22]
B
By the time the baby's born, all sorts of things happen. Darnley refuses to go to the baptism. James Boswell, who is an incredible adventurer, he's been captured by pirates, he's always getting in scraps and getting his nose broken. He stayed faithful to Mary of Guise, Mary of Queen of Scots mother. And he's a Protestant, but he doesn't really believe in forcing a Catholic monarch to adopt Protestantism. He stays by her side during the Rizzio conspiracy. He manages to escape and raise an army. He's a really interesting character. But by the time Darnley is assassinated, all of the conspirators have different reasons for wanting Darnley to be killed. He's trying to move abroad, first of all, in a big huff. The idea of having one of the monarchy abroad, raising Catholic armies, is a bad idea. That makes the Privy council actually have a meeting with him, and they're like, what are you doing? He's also trying to stage a military coup in Britain by taking over the Scilly Isles. That doesn't quite work out. He's collapsing with syphilis and he's getting very ill. The people who banned against Darnley have a lot of different motives. There's revenge for turning on him, and there's, you know how dangerous he is to have him hanging around. And he is dangerous. He's really dangerous and really reckless, and they just want him out of the way. He hasn't done what he was supposed to do, which is admit the baby's his. Although he's kind of hanging around, he's becoming a focus for conspirators and all sorts of ne' er do wells. He's hitting the queen in front of people. I mean, there's one point before this where they go off on a hunting party, a mini break. It goes really badly. There's nothing to kill, if that's your thing. And he gets very, very drunk at someone's house, and he starts groping her, and she's fighting him off. And he says he's making her come hunting with him. And she whispers to him, very quietly and tenderly, look, I think I might be pregnant again. And he announces it to the entire room to her shame. And she just thinks she's pregnant and shames her. And she's mortified about this, so he's insulting her in front of everybody. She can't get on with what she's supposed to be doing. And he is just like a rocket about to go off and no one knows which direction it's going off in. So people start to meet and they start to say, wouldn't it be great if he wasn't here? There are disgusting about whether or not Mary could divorce him. What effects would that have on James? All Mary seems to care about is James and James's status at this point. But there are already talks about divorce and divorce in inverted commas, which might mean. And right at the very heart of them is James Boswell, the ginger scrapper.
- [16:21]
A
So let's think about the events of that fateful night, the 9th of the 10th of February. So Darnley is at Kirkfield, he's been ill, he's recuperating. Kirkfield is just on the outskirts of Edinburgh. So what happens that night?
- [16:38]
B
That night? So Darnley is very, very ill in Glasgow. He's got syphilis. It's quite obvious. He's come out in massive big pustules. And his thing is he's good looking, so he doesn't want to be seen by anybody at court. Mary goes and she convinces him she has made peace with a lot of people. She's got lots of different factions talking to each other. Everyone's made friends, people have been forgiven after Rizzio. And she goes to see Darnley in Glasgow and she convinces him to come back to Edinburgh, but he doesn't want to come back anywhere public because he looks terrible. But she gets him to go and stay in this house. Now, if you've been to Edinburgh, it's the old college university, so you have to go out of Edinburgh, right down the steep gully, out of the Royal Mile, back up again. I mean, it's right at the city walls. So he's hidden away and he's getting better and he's there for about a week and a. And he's finally recovering. He's coming back tomorrow, he's coming back to court tomorrow, it's all going to be okay. And Mary goes to visit him and she takes Boswell, she takes a lot of nobles, they have a big celebration that he's better, he's coming back tomorrow. And while she's there, she meets a servant that she knows and she says to him, his name is Paris. She says to him, you're very dirty. What's going on. And she says, underneath all the dirt on his face, you can see him blushing. It's quite odd. And anyway, she has been invited to a wedding at Hollywood House. It's a servant that she really loves. She says to Darnley, I can't stay, I'm going to this wedding. She goes off to the wedding, falls into bed at half past 12, and the whole of Edinburgh is woken up at 2 o' clock in the morning by the loudest bang anyone has ever heard. Apparently it sounded like 30 cannons going off at the same time and a massive flash of light.
- [18:33]
A
And this might be a red herring, but why is Mary dressed in men's clothing? The last time she sees Darling, because.
- [18:40]
B
She'S rising like this is quite interesting, actually. Catherine de Medici introduced riding a horse astride. So Mary is not riding a horse side saddled, the way we would expect her to. Catherine de Medici wore trousers under her dresses all the time so she could ride because she didn't trust anybody. She didn't know when she would have to lay again. I think so. I mean, I think that's why she's dressed as a man. I mean, I could be wrong. Do you. Have you got. Have you heard anything else?
- [19:10]
A
No, I just. I just think it's a fascinating detail. It may have some meaning, so one.
- [19:15]
B
Has to think about it, you know, I think she often did things like that. I mean, sometimes they would. The three of them, Darnley, Rizzio and Mary, they would wear masks and go to mask balls, incognito. I mean, they were about the town, you know, they weren't hiding in castles and coming out and waving from coaches the way we expect monarchs to. They were very much part of the city. And, yeah, so she would ride her. I mean, she was a great rider.
- [19:40]
A
So then Darnley and his servant are found, but they are not in the wreckage. And this is all a bit strange. What do we know about how they're found? And. And I wonder whether something about that, the fact it's all quite so theatrical, so elaborate, is one of the reasons why we're still quite so interested in it.
- [20:01]
B
We know exactly what happened, actually, because there were so many inquiries into it, but the reason that they didn't at that time and the reason the slurs against Mary stood were because the people who were conducting the extensive inquiries, the door to door, the asking servants, what happened, asking the people who lived in little houses just outside what happened is because the people who were conducting those extensive inquiries are the people who had conspired to kill Darnley. So they kind of muddy the way the information comes out. So there were cottages all along the road there, and they all heard what happened before the explosion. Darnley was better and he was in bed, and he heard people outside the window scuffling around and whispering to each other. And he got very suspicious and he said, I rope to this chair and lower me down. I don't know why he didn't just lower down on a rope, but apparently he needed a chair because he's found in an orchard, laid out like a dead body with his nightie pulled right up in a very disrespectful way. Next to him is his dead valet, who also has his nightie pulled up in a very disrespectful way. There's a chair, there's a rope, there's a fur cloak. Darnley gets up, puts on a fur cloak, is lowered down into the grounds, into the street. And the person that he meets there, the person who is patrolling outside, is a man called Andrew Kerr. And when they attacked Mary to get hold of Rizzio, Rizzio's hiding behind her and she's holding her arms out to protect him. And one person she remembered was Andrew Kerr, because Andrew Kerr had a loaded pistol and he sounds like a bit of a sadist. He rushed the loaded weapon against her pregnant belly as he looked her in the eye. Twenty years later, she still remembered that. But he's on patrol just outside Darnley's house. And then all of a sudden, the little ladies in the cottages can hear Lord Darnley's voice and he's shouting, you're my kinsman. Please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. Andrew Kerr was a cousin of his. And then, lo and behold, Darnley is found dead, his valley is found dead and the house explodes.
- [22:24]
A
But lots of these details, as you say, don't come out at the time. So we have someone like William Cecil commissioning a drawing of the murder scene. Cause clearly the official explanations are not good enough. Is that what's going on? Why are the English getting involved?
- [22:39]
B
Why the English are getting involved because they want to know if Mary was responsible. Mary had been there the night before, and she cannot get her head around the possibility that the bomb was not meant for her. She's quite self important, you know. She says, they could have blown me up just as much as him. She will not investigate properly. And she is all over the place. I have to say. She's making very bad decisions. So Elizabeth really needs to know what has happened. Now. Catherine de Medici writes to her as well. And monarchs survive things like this all the time. I mean, outrage is like this all the time. There are protocols for dealing with this. He has to pick a conspirator to blame. It's got to be Boswell. Everybody knows it's got to be Boswell. Boswell was the sheriff of Edinburgh. He's the only person who really had access to that much gunpowder. And on Boswell, back off, keep quiet, you'll be fine. But she doesn't do that, and that's the problem. But also, it's such an interesting thing, because everyone assumes that the explosion happens, and then Darnley and his valet are found murdered in the orchard. It doesn't happen in that order. It doesn't seem to happen in that order. It seems that they were murdered and then the house was exploded to hide the fact that there were barrels and barrels. Or maybe somebody just set them off. The order of things. The story makes absolutely no sense. For a long time, I thought that they had exploded the house because the whole house was completely ruined. Darnley and the valley into the orchard and then strangled them because they weren't dead. But actually, it's the other way around. They strangled them and then they exploded the house.
- [24:42]
A
So what is the point of exploding the house? Why the bomb that everybody's going to hear?
- [24:46]
B
Well, everyone has theories, but nobody knows. Really nobody knows. Is it because they want to get rid of the gunpowder? That's a very bad way to do that. Is it because they know that? Is it because they know that there's going to be an inquiry, and if they find gunpowder, they're going to know that it's attached to Boswell? Is it because somebody just thinks, come on, we'll do it anyway? It won't be that big an explosion, really. Nobody knows why. I mean, incompetence defies explanation. It's just very, very, very badly done.
- [25:19]
A
And that in itself is very interesting, isn't it? Because you'd have thought it would have been done well, by the possible power of the people involved. So let's think about our key suspects in this murder case. We've identified Bothwell. What does he gain? What's his reason for wanting to murder Darnley, apart from the fact that he's got this massive supply of gunpowder? What evidence is there of his guilt?
- [25:43]
B
He is socially involved. He's very attached to Mary. When James is baptized, Darnley fails to turn up. Boswell's there he doesn't go to the baptism because he's a Protestant. Boswell is her absolute favorite. She buys him a beautiful set of clothes, he's parading around. Everybody knows he's numero uno. Everybody. And he's telling people that he's very close to the Queen. People are starting to get very threatened. They're having to go through him to the Queen. He accompanies her absolutely everywhere. And he is a real strong man. You know, he's very fearless and, you know, he's very prone to, you know, he's not scared of a fight. And Mary feels very, very insecure after this, very insecure after Rizzio and Darnley is not going to protect her and she doesn't really trust the nobles. But Oswald has been totally loyal, so he is her stand out favourite and has never wavered in his loyalty to her.
- [26:38]
A
What about Morton? James Douglas, Earl of Morton, how does he benefit from a dead Darnley?
- [26:45]
B
Right, so by this time, Morton's involved in the Rizzio plot, Maitland is involved in the Rizzio. It's difficult because everybody's called M. Maitland, Moray and Morton, they're all involved in the Rizzio plot. Peace has broken out unexpectedly. There has been a detente and at one point they all end up at Craigmiller Castle with the Queen and they have a little discussion, which is, everything is documented. It's incredible. Absolutely everything is documented. Morton and Oswald say, wouldn't it be great if the Queen was divorced? Because Darnley is smashing about, trying to cause trouble everywhere, trying to start military coups, trying to move abroad. Nobody can find a solution. Mary appoints an archbishop trying to get an annulment, and you need the Pope to annul a marriage. And even if she does that, what happens to James? There just doesn't seem to be a solution. Everybody knows that Darnley is a problem. Martin is there, he is totally with Boswell. And of course they were massive enemies. So nobody suspects them of working together, even though they have made their peace. So they're perfect conspirators. But it becomes very clear that they actually are working together.
- [28:00]
A
So we've got these men who are not normally allies, but pull together because Darnley's the problem, he's the one who needs removal. But they do it so inefficiently, so badly. Even though these are people of power, they have resources. Why is it such a cock up?
- [28:20]
B
It's a massive cock up. I mean. I mean, that is all you can say about it. Is it is a massive cock up. I think it's because Boswell's involved. I think Boswell maybe has a head injury and Boswell definitely does not have a lot of impulse control. And I think it's also because people didn't really understand gunpowder. I don't think people really. I mean, I think it is like you're, you know, your grand. Trying to work a Nintendo or somebody of our age trying to work or try to get TiVo to work or something. They don't quite understand what it does, how much you need, what it's going to do. And so they, they throw all this gunpowder at it and it goes really, really badly wrong. I mean, it's to leave the bodies and leave the bodies, but when you think about a cock up that big, actually it's that there are so many different conflicting agendas. Some of them are there because they hate Darnley, Some of them are there because they want power. Some of them are there because they like big bangs. Some of them love Mary. Nobody's really. There is no single mind working out all the different parameters of this. And it is just a shambles. It is an omnishambles with death.
- [29:32]
A
About 10 years ago, there was a panel of experts that were convened by the Royal Society of Edinburgh to try and crack this murder case. And their findings largely exonerated Mary. So I wonder what you thought about their findings and what you think her role is. Do you think she is party to it?
- [29:50]
B
She is party to it. I think her life absolutely collapses after this. And I don't think she. I think she's a really interesting character. I think she is quite, quite a thoughtful for a monarch. I think she has quite a vivid internal life and she has a peer group and the peer group are the four Marys. And she cares what they think and they're quite religious. I think she's showing off to her squad. I don't think, you know, her job is her whole life and I don't think she would do something like this. More than that. I think it's so bad for James vi. He really kind of became. Turns into a monster after this. You know, she doesn't really, you know, just like a few months afterwards, she gets to spend time with him at Stirling Castle. Doesn't really see him, she never sees him again. And I think she's really all about the baby at this point. I don't think she would do this. Also, the fact that she's writing to everybody saying clearly it's a plot against me he's not that important. Nobody would do this. It's all about me. I think that seems very, very honest.
- [30:56]
A
One of the pieces of evidence that's been kind of infamous with this case is the casket letters. So I don't think we can talk about Darnley's death without mentioning them. Well, what are they and how valid do you think they are?
- [31:09]
B
Letters are disputed letters from Mary that apparently say that she was involved in the murder of Darnley. Now, whether or not these are letters that she wrote at other times about other things that have been chopped up or misused, but, you know, they were hidden. And I think, you know, the misogyny of the times after Mary and at the time of Mary, how valid and coalescing it would be to Scottish public life for Mary to be responsible, because it means that Morton doesn't get looked at, Moray doesn't get looked at, Lennox doesn't get. Nobody else is implicated. It's just this daft woman. I think they just serve those misogynistic interests and the kind of, you know, uni explanation just too easily. What do you think?
- [31:56]
A
Well, absolutely. I think the fact that we don't have the originals is really important, so that all we're working from are copies. So we can't tell at all whether they're, you know, patched together, you know, fabrications, forgeries, different handwriting, any of that stuff. None of that analysis can be done. And they have all sorts of bits and pieces, if you look at them closely, where they just feel that just don't quite work syntactically, or there's a bit that doesn't, you know, it doesn't make any sense in the context of the bit I've just read, or. And I think the other thing, I suppose, is that what they're setting out to do is to create this idea that there is a romance between Mary and Bothwell, which other evidence suggests is deeply problematic.
- [32:45]
B
I think the thing about Mary is he's such an easy target afterwards, because it's not long after this that she is taken prisoner in Loch Leven Castle. She is forced to abdicate. She has no power. The thing to remember when you look at those problems with the casket letters, and these are supposed to be letters that were discovered that she never wanted anybody to see. The thing about them is she is a very fluid writer. She is a very. She has nothing to do for decades but write letters, and she wouldn't be writing in that oddly choppy way. And the fact that it lets so many people off the hook. Just that prejudices me against the authenticity of them.
- [33:30]
A
Yes, we'll have to do a deep dive on them one day on this podcast because when we. You look at the details of them, you're like, just, just doesn't. The lines just don't quite add up to say what they're trying to be made to say. That's what, that's what I feel about them. You know, there could be portions of them that are genuine. Like, doesn't she talk about Darnley having foul breath, which is something that syphilis would have caused or at least treatment for syphilis with mercury would have caused. But then she compares it to the recipient's uncle's bad breath and Bothwell no longer had a living uncle. I mean, there were just kind of these moments of detail where you think, oh, this is probably nonsense, but what effect does that have on the case? I mean, what do we know about. Given that James will go on to destroy the original letters. You know, one could argue that, that he's getting rid of evidence of his mother's involvement if we, you know, to play devil's advocate for a second.
- [34:36]
B
This.
- [34:37]
C
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- [35:34]
B
James really wasn't in favor of his mother. I mean, James had his mind poised. You know, the old she's turned the kids against me. I mean, James really was poisoned against his mother all of his young life. I mean, he had a really brutal upbringing. Regent Morrie. You know, he had a tutor at Stirling Castle who absolutely loathed his mother. And I think it's really significant that he becomes obsessed with witches. He's incredibly Misogynistic, you know, he's not gonna do his mother any favors. The idea that he would be covering up for his mother is, you know, strikes me as fairly unlikely. You know, he never flinched from, you know, allowing people to think bad things about her. For me, what's really convincing that she didn't have anything to do with it is the fact that she seems quite stunned after. And she is writing to people and trying to make sense of it in a way that seems very, very innocent. There's a thing when people get arrested and they're put in a cell, and cops all over the world say this. If someone gets into a cell and they fall before they're questioned, they're guilty, because this is the thing they've been dreading. Mary is frantically thrashing around trying to work out what's going on, and she cannot believe it wasn't aimed at her. She's not saying that as cover. I think she's being played at this point. I do wonder if she had, you know, depression after the baby, and she said to Darnley that she was pregnant. So she's clearly had a miscarriage. And, you know, she's going through all sorts of hormonal ups and downs at this point. And her main aim is to keep the baby safe. Her main thing is to keep the baby safe.
- [37:11]
A
So do you have a sense of who's the mastermind out of all those? Ems and Bothwell? Like, if we're thinking of Morton and Maitland and Murray, who do you think we have to think of as sort of ultimately behind it all? Or is it just a collective decision?
- [37:26]
B
It's a collective stupid act. As you know, we tend, when we look back and we say they were doing this for this reason or they were doing that for that reason, we can't possibly know that. What we know are the facts and what happened. And when you look at the facts, if this was a Mexican drug gang, you would say to yourself, lots of people are involved in this. It's a mess. No one's in charge. No one's being held responsible. There are meetings about, we should get rid of Darnley. But ultimately, the axe is such a mess. It's so easy to see who could get that much gunpowder. It's so obvious as possible, you know, who would have to say, who's Andrew Kerr working with? It's so easy. In fact, you could kind of go through all the people who conducted extensive inquiries into what happened and then just dragged them out, which is what inquiries do. Now, if they don't want anyone to find out what happened or suppressed the outcome or highlighted the wrong information. Those are probably the people who are involved. But I have to say, Darnley is an absolute terror at this point. He's drunk all the time. You wouldn't put it past him conspiring with the Spanish or the French to invade Scotland. You just have no idea what he's going to do at this point. And, you know, he's groping the queen in public, he's slapping her, he's attending sex clubs. Nobody knows what he's going to do.
- [38:56]
A
So you're saying it's not a terrible thing. Let's not mourn him for too long.
- [38:59]
B
I really feel for him. I just think any dictator's child, if you think about the hollow look in their eye and how damaged they are. You know, his father, Lennox, was a nightmare, and he killed at the siege of Dumbarton Castle. Lennox's generals got fed up and they all went home and he got 20 of their children. These are nobles children. And he said, come back. He held the children hostage, and when they came back, he slit the children's throats to teach them a lesson. That was his father. You know, he's married at 18 to the queen of Scotland, and his father is working him from the back all the time. And that kind of crazy sexual promiscuity that is not having fun. There's something wrong there. There's something, you know, to be 20 and already taking mercury for syphilis. Something sinister has happened to you in your childhood. You know, we talk about Darnley as if he was a nightmare, but, you know, I do think he was just a horribly damaged man from a nightmare situation. And, you know, I feel for him.
- [40:06]
A
I think that's really helpful. So what effect does his death have on Mary and her efforts to rule Scotland?
- [40:14]
B
I think Mary then goes into a spiral. She turns to Boswell. You know, Elizabeth and Catherine de Medici both write to her and say, clearly, this was Boswell and the others. You need to pin it on one person. You need to make it clear. You need to punish him. But she doesn't do that. She turns to Boswell and she asks him to protect her. And he starts spending time with Boswell. Boswell obviously has a lot of authority. Within a very short period of time, Boswell kidnaps her and takes her to Dunbar Castle. And nobody really knows if Mary was raped by Boswell there, but she's held for quite a long time. And she does write to people saying that, you know, he was awful to her. She tries to excuse it because Boswell comes back to Edinburgh and forces his wife to divorce him. And then he goes back to Dunbar Castle. They come back, Mary and Boswell together. The people have turned against Mary at this point because of Darnley. He can't believe it, because the people have always loved her. The nobles haven't loved her, but the people have always loved her. And at one point, shortly after this, she's going through the market, and the market women shout out to her, God bless, your majesty, unless you had something to do with the killing of the king. And she's really shocked by this. And she begins to realize that she has lost the people. And they come back to Edinburgh. Her stony silence are impossible. And they're married. And because she's, you know, she spends all of her morning time with Boswell, and she gives all of Darnley's horses, his stables, all his clothes, she gives to Boswell. So this is like the massive mistake she makes. But he's too wily to make a mistake that stupid. I think she's in shock. I don't think she knows what's going on. And I think he's hitting her.
- [42:07]
A
Okay, so this. Let's just unpack all of that a bit. So from the point of view of the people of Scotland, the impression is that for whatever reason, the rumor is going around that Mary has killed her king, her consort, and that obviously is, you know, to turn the world order upside down and really disturbing as an idea. So for some reason, they believe that, and that turns people against Mary. That's really an important point, isn't it?
- [42:37]
B
Well, I think there's a campaign to make them believe that. I think it's partly Lennox, it's partly other people that it suits. It's partly to deflect from the actual conspirators. You know, there's graffiti representing Mary. It says M R. As a mermaid, which is a topless. You know, just like in Starbucks, next to the hare, which is Boswell. But there are attempts to. There's graffiti on the gates of Hollywood Palace. And so there are rumors going around, and there are campaigns to get people. Sometimes you see pylons on the Internet, and this is exactly the same. And, you know, there was a great documentary about the pylon to Amber Heard, which all came from Saudi Arabia. And, you know, it wasn't really. So there is a massive whispering campaign against Mary to blame Mary for this, because I think at this point, she is siding with Boswell, and she gives Boswell so much power that he makes his henchmen a captain of Edinburgh Castle, which essentially means he's not just allied with the biggest power in the land. This is now a potential military coup. And all the other conspirators suddenly realize they've backed the wrong horse or they've shaken hands with the wrong guy. And so there is a whispering campaign to turn people against her. And the people do turn against her.
- [44:02]
A
And with this kind of collaboration with Bothwell, who may be her rapist, she may be in shock. She may have lost a child or be pregnant in the early stages. All of these are possibilities. Ultimately, this will be the series of events that lead to Mary's own capture by her nobles.
- [44:25]
B
Bos will run away and they have a battle which they conduct incredibly badly. Odd, really odd. Mary's brilliant at this. They've got bigger numbers. Boswell's great at this. And they lose. And one of the reasons that they lose is because the people no longer support them. The people don't support Mary anymore. I don't think that they think that she's committed the ultimate crime in killing Darnley, because I think everybody knows Darnley. I think it's just too much. It's just incessant drama, and people are trying to get on with their lives. So almost as soon as they leave Edinburgh for Dunbar, the guy that Boswell has put in charge of the military at Edinburgh Castle, changes his allegiance to another set of conspirators called the Confederate Lords, who are beginning to coalesce and say, let's just get rid of her. Let's get rid of her. Boswell and Mary go to have a battle with these people. In fact, my family all live in Rudderglyn, which is near battlefield, and there's a road, and they still call it the Pan tent, because when Mary and Boswell ran away from that battle, they stopped at a tavern there to have to water their horses. And it's still called the Pantings locally. So, I mean, it was very much a local thing that happened and is still in memory, you know, so the two of them run away and lose the battle, lose the people, lose the goodwill. And there's this other conspiracy that is an alternative government. And Moray says, you know, I can be regent over the child. She's not allowed to see the child anymore. Whoever has the child has control. And what they don't want is Boswell to get control of the child.
- [46:08]
A
So, in fact, if we go back to think about the cock up of Darnley's Death, this great explosion, et cetera. It could be, as you've suggested, they just don't know how to use gunpowder. But at one level, the fact that this is such an enormous theatrical event is going to be in part why the people of Scotland are reacting against Mary. Because it's that sense of this being too dramatic that, you know, just. Can we just have some calm, please? Can we just not have things, you know, perhaps if he had been quietly done away with, you know, maybe he could have been poisoned, he was sick, that he could easily have died in a way that would. Didn't look nearly as suspect. But something about the nature of this crime contains within it the seeds of Mary's own downfall.
- [46:56]
B
I've never thought on that before. I just assumed incompetence. But maybe the high drama of it.
- [47:01]
A
All was deliberate, given what you've just said. It seemed to me that that seems to be the thing that is causing the problem as far as the audience.
- [47:11]
B
Of Scotland is concerned, the high drama of the assassination. But it's also how much he favours Boswell and the fact that she spends all her time with him. And if you think about somebody, when Diana died, people were very angry that the royal family were not affecting public mourning. Very private people. There was a demand that the Queen come out and be publicly sad and people need that kind of response. So it might be the drama of what happened, or it might just be that her response was seen as very inappropriate.
- [47:45]
A
Yes, absolutely. Moving on so quickly thereafter with someone who's the prime suspect, whereas she needs to also stage an elaborate period of mourning to demonstrate that she's innocent and that doesn't happen. Well, I said we'd solve it and we have. So well done, us. Centuries of people have been trying to figure this out, but all it took is for you and me to get together and have a chat.
- [48:11]
B
I have to say, John Guy's brilliant book about this, he is really forensic, He's a fantastic historian and he does go into. He goes back to the original documents and really looks at them. So, I mean, I think he maybe solved it, but we can take credit. That's fine.
- [48:29]
A
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, Denise. Thank you so much for coming back on.
- [48:33]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [48:36]
A
Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors From History hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer, Rob Weinberg.
- [48:45]
B
Adam.
- [48:45]
A
To Amy Haddo, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors From History Hit.
- [49:13]
C
This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you. Or two for you and one for someone else. Or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on Root Metric Truth score report dated 1 each 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for watch and tablet. Additional terms apply. Did you know you can opt out.
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B
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