Mike Lodes (6:04)

Thank you, Susie. Lovely to be here.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:07)

Lovely to see you, Mike. We were working together quite recently on a very different project, but it's great to be bringing our interest to focus on the 16th century. And I also should say I want to apologize if anyone can hear any dogs barking, just consider it a sort of feature of the podcast. For this particular episode.

Mike Lodes (6:27)

I sent mine out so that they wouldn't.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (6:32)

Mine are out as well and apparently patrolling the parameter. But anyway, let's get back to the 16th century. Where do we get our understanding of the Tudor relationship with dogs from?

Mike Lodes (6:43)

Okay, well that's a nice easy question to start with because we have wonderful evidence in the form of a book written by John Keys. John Keyes was the personal physician to Elizabeth I, and he was also a naturalist and he wrote a book called the Cannabis Britannicus, which translates as of English dogs. There's a little bit of confusion Britannica's English, but you know, that's how they translated it in the 19th century because, you know, Britain wasn't a political entity then. But it pretty much covers the dogs of the geographic British Isles. And he goes into tremendous detail of the different types of dog and their characteristics in use in Britain at the time.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (7:37)

And does he give us a sense of the roles that dogs have to play, the tasks they have to fulfill? Is there any kind of hierarchy of dogs that went with their owner status?

Mike Lodes (7:50)

Very much so. So you mentioned greyhounds in your introduction, which almost exhausted everything I know, so I shall be muddling through from now on. But we say that word greyhound and you mentioned the greyhound on the Beaufort Arms. That really is what in the Middle Ages and Tudor period would have been called a le bre or olivrier. It's really a dog for chasing hares, which of course it still is. It's a much slighter animal. The greyhound. G R E Grey in Old French meant pleasant, agreeable. That's the grey in agreeable. It's also the grey in degree, as in of high degree in Middle English. So a greyhound's much more like a deerhound or a wolfhound or a large lurcher. They could be smooth or shaggy, coated, but they're a much more muscular, robust dog. They are for taking down large animals like deer or even wolves in the earlier middle ages. So the greyhounds are of the first degree. They are a very, very high status dog. You mentioned Anne Berlin's Pourquoi? Pourkoy, however we wish to pronounce it, although the thought is that it possibly comes from little dogs habit of putting their head on one side going pourquoi? What is it that you're saying? Why did you ask me that question? So maybe her little dog had that characteristic, but she also had another dog, a greyhound. And we know that because there is a record in King Henry VIII's accounts where he had to pay out 10 shillings compensation to a farmer whose cow had been killed by two greyhounds. And it is noted that the greyhounds belonged to Sir Urian Brereton and to the Lady Anne. The Internet will tell you the dog was called Urian, but I don't think that's very likely because it simply was one of the greyhounds belonging to Sir Urian, who was the elder brother of Sir William Brereton, who obviously was subsequently executed on suspicion of being one of Anne Boleyn's paramours. But that's another tale. What we do know is that she had a greyhound and a greyhound that was quite, you know, fierce, that together with its pal went and savaged a cow. So greyhounds were very much the high status hunting dog and the high status companion dog of the 2de Gentry.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (10:37)

And I suppose that speaks also to the fact that we know that Anne Boleyn enjoyed hunting as much as Henry did. Because if greyhounds are hunting dogs, having a greyhound says that you want to participate in that kind of sport.

Mike Lodes (10:56)

It does. But this is a thing that there is a commonality with all dogs, whether they are designated as companion dogs. What John Keys, that our Tudor writer of these things would call companion dogs, chamber dogs or little dogs, simply describes them as little dogs. Today we use the word toy for a breed that has been miniaturized. You know, toy spaniels, toy poodles, toy this, toy that, it's simply a miniaturized version of the larger functional type. And they use the word little dogs for that. But whether you're talking about little dogs or whether you're talking about fierce guard dogs, or whether you're talking about sheepdogs or hunting dogs, companionship is always the most important thing. Because if you are A shepherd on the hill. You lead a very lonely life and your only companion is your dog. So, yes, you need him to be good at rounding up sheep, but you also need him to be a jolly good pal. If you're a hunter sitting out in wet, watery wastes waiting for some ducks to fly in for three or four hours, yes, you want a good dog that will retrieve them when you shoot them with your crossbow, but you also want a mate. So it doesn't matter what the dog's function is. The way humans selectively bred them always favoured that companionship gene. And greyhounds make very good friends.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (12:30)

Well, let's talk a bit more then about dogs as companions. First of all, let's pick up with pourquoir. And there's another little dog on Jane Seymour's skirts, for example, in the Whitehall mural. What kind of dog chamber dogs were most popular in the Tudor court?

Mike Lodes (12:47)

The one we can put a name to that's possibly the most popular is the Maltese, the, the Melodes. And that gets back to, you know, the Romans are talking about these dogs from Malta, the Melites, as being a very popular type of companion dog. They're white, they're fluffy, they're adorable and. But they're really ultimately a miniaturized type of spaniel dog Spaniels are especially affectionate. Little white dogs were especially popular. So as well as the Maltese, we get the Bichon Frise. And of course there's the wonderful story of Henry III of France, who was so besotted with his Bichon frise that he had a little tray suspended from his neck by ribbons and would carry his little bichons around the court. John Keyes is very naughty, he's very misogynistic, as, you know, people were at the time, and, and he decries little companion dogs as just for dainty dames and to while away their hours, you know, in idleness. But there are many portraits of gentlemen of the court with their little Maltese or bichon, and clearly Henry III was one who favored his little pet dogs as well. Spaniels are the other type that are extremely common, the forerunners of the cavalier King Charles. So again, they're really miniaturized versions of the hunting spaniel, little sort of red and white, orangey red and white dogs. I've got one, a Brittany spaniel. And so the little dog version of that is the sort of forerunner of the cavalier King Charles, but really it's a hunting dog. It's, it's, you know, it's used in falconry, the papillon is also a toy spaniel, a miniaturized spaniel, but it wasn't called a papillon then. It would just have been called a toy spaniel or a little dog. And in the Tudor times it had flop ears, not the prick ears of today's papillons. That, that's a. A much later breeding.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (14:54)

And so I suppose the stories that you've told about Henry III of France and the fact that we have these dogs appearing at court suggests, as you've said, that these are dogs for emotional support. And interestingly, that despite what John Keys are saying, there's nothing emasculating about having a cute little dog. It's very much something that a man can do at the time.

Mike Lodes (15:20)

Absolutely. And you look at portraits obviously, not just in Britain, but throughout the 16th century in France and Italy and Spain and everywhere. And time and time again you will see a gentleman with his favored companion dog. Life at court could be pretty brutal. And a dog was a, you know, a friendship you could count on.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (15:43)

Well, let's talk about some of the other dogs that were very much working dogs. I was struck by a sequence early on in the film that you've recently made about two dogs for history when you talk about the experience, the transcendent experience of pack hunting with bloodhounds. What were they used for when it came to hunting, and why were they suitable for that?

Mike Lodes (16:07)

Well, bloodhounds were especially bred to track down people, to track down fugitives. You know, Robert the Bruce was hunted by bloodhounds. William Wallace was hunted by bloodhounds. A little bit later on, after the Battle of Sedgemoor, Duke of Monworth was hunted and caught by bloodhounds. I mean, they are people trackers in the hunt, they can also be used singly in the hunt, they can also be used singly on a long line and they were called limerers. And you would follow the scent to find where the deer was lying in the woods before you set the pack on. So they. The limerer went and his bloodhound went out first. So they worked because they had the most extraordinary ability to detect scent. Something like 230 million olfactory cells, you know, smell sensors in their nose. And they send a signal to the olfactory bulb in the brain, which is gives an odor image. And an odor image for a dog, like a bloodhound is 40 times greater than, than a photograph is for a human. It's extraordinary amount of information.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (17:22)

Wow, that is extraordinary. This sense of smell means that they are able to detect any trace of a person or a deer when they've got hold of that scent in the first place.

Mike Lodes (17:35)

Yes. The faintest could be days old and they can follow it doggedly for, you know, mile after mile after mile. All dogs can do everything. A Chihuahua can point, a Jack Russell can herd up cattle. They can all do everything. Not very well, but they are specialists and you selectively breed over centuries for that specialization. All dogs have a sense of smell, but nothing quite as good as the bloodhound. A bloodhound will have a greater sense of smell than the foxhound, but the foxhound needs greater agility than does the bloodhound, needs to be able to go faster and perhaps have greater stamina over a day. So you, you know, always with specialisations, there are trade offs and the bloodhound is just the dog par excellence for sniffing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (18:29)

And what is it about the strange physiognomy of a bloodhound that makes it particularly good at that?

Mike Lodes (18:37)

Well, it has all these olfactory sensors and it has this great blob of a nose. It's a very large hooter and then it's got all these wrinkles in its skin which you think, oh, you know, that's very endearing. Well, actually they have function because they help to hold the scent around the face. And those classic droopy bloodhound ears. Well, when he's got his head down and they're flapping around, well, they're scooping the scent up and wafting it into the nose and all that drool and dribble. Well, again, it actually holds the scent particles and allows him to process these odour images.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (19:18)

And we've talked about them as being good at tracking down criminals or good at finding a deer. But they also operate as hounds of war, don't they? In what capacity?

Mike Lodes (19:31)

Well, we know that we don't know much about it, but there is a record of the Earl of Essex taking 800 bloodhounds with him on an expedition to Ireland to put down the O'Neill rebellion. How exactly they were deployed, evidence is scant, but clearly the more noses you have, the more you can spread them out. So, you know, the type of warfare that they would be expecting would be a lot of guerrilla warfare and needing to chase down sort of known ringleaders and little groups who might be hiding out in the hills and the woodland. So bloodhounds are ideal for that. And they can be used in small packs. 20 or so hounds, then you've got 20 noses spread out, galloping after them on horses, you can cover an awful lot of ground very quickly.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (20:26)

It's extraordinary to think of bloodhounds as being one of the instruments of the Tudor colonizing experiment. One thing I want to ask you about, and this may be too technical, but when we see bloodhounds today, are we looking at the same animal as with Tudor dogs because of all of that breeding and specialization? I mean, are we essentially looking at the same dog, or do they look quite different?

Mike Lodes (20:55)

It's a very, very good question, and it's quite tricky to have the answer because nobody took the trouble to taxiderm a bloodhound in 1570. So they look very, to some of the portrayals in art, but almost certainly not exactly the same. What is vital for people to understand is that no dog exists as a natural creature in the wild. There are no wild packs of spaniels. There are no poodles, There are no Labradors. They're all wolves. They all genetically descend from the. Specifically from the gray wolf. And it is over millennia, many, many millennia, that selective breeding has developed these types with different morphologies to suit climate and terrain. Some of that is a natural selection, but predominantly by human hand for tasks, for jobs, to be herders, to be guardians, to be companions, to be hunters.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (22:08)

Now, you mentioned poodles there. The Tudors made a particular, perhaps a surprising use of poodles. What did they do with them?

Mike Lodes (22:17)

Poodles were enormously popular in the Tudor period. It's probably their most popular period was the 16th and 17th centuries. They were water spaniels, what Shakespeare would call water rugs. In Macbeth, he refers to them as water rugs, which is a nice description, I think standard poodle has got webbed feet. It's a swimmer. They love water. Incredibly intelligent dogs. They're water spaniel. A spaniel's job is to find game. So their first job is to, you know, root about the sedges and the rushes around ponds and waterways and seek out ducks. And that's exactly what John Keyes tells us they do. And to retrieve them when shot. And they were shot by the crossbow. So the way you would hunt for ducks in the 16th century is with a poodle and a crossbow. If you wanted a quantity of ducks for the table, then you would use a duck decoy, which is a series of funneling waterways covered with nets. And, you know, you can catch a number of dogs en masse. There are a couple in England that are still there for people to go and see. That's called a duck decoy. But for the sportsman, for the Tudor nobility. A great recreation, a popular recreation was to go duck hunting with a crossbow. And John Keyes tells us that poodles or water spaniels are extremely good also at retrieving the hunter's crossbow bolt when he missed. So, you know, we did this. And obviously you don't use a crossbow arrow with a metal head because it would sink. But if you're hunting ducks, a blunt head will stun them. And that's a. And then you send your poodle out to retrieve the. We retrieve rubber ducks for the film, but the poodles were wonderful. They dove into the water, powered out, grabbed the rubber duck, came back. If we missed, they went out again, retrieved the bolt and brought it back just as John Keys described. And the terminology gets very muddled around dogs as well as the genetics. You know, genetics change and so does the terminology. So I'm using a catch all phrase, water span. But other phrases at the time were barbettes. That today is a, you know, it's a kennel club subdivision called a barbette. It's really indistinguishable. But there's a letter from Lady Lyle corresponding with Madame Dubourg looking for poodles. And they specifically say poodle and then in parenthesis barbettes. So saying, you know, they knew they're. They're all the same kind of dog. So she specifically looking for a poodle for the crossbow.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (26:48)

And how did the way we clip poodles today begin? With a kind of practical purpose in the 16th century? Or perhaps it didn't begin then, but to originate from a practical purpose in the 16th century.

Mike Lodes (27:02)

This idea of the poodle cut, which you know has been one of the worst PR choices any dog breed has made because, you know, everybody's oh Frou Frou dogs. It started with the belief in it having practical advantage. And that belief was that you wanted the dog to be sleek and fast swimming in the water. So you did not want a superfluity, to use John Keys's word, a superfluity of hair in the wrong places. So trim it where you can, but leave it where you need to keep the dog warm. Because the nature of duck hunting is it's conducted in icy ponds in the winter. So you leave a very full clip around the chest to keep the heart and lungs warm. You leave a couple of little bubbles at the top of the hips to keep the kidneys warm. And oh, yes, we better look after those knees. And so have a little pom pom there as well. And that's where you get it. It's actually nonsense because it's not a water repelling coat. So it didn't really do, but they thought it was. They thought it did that. And so that was the idea. And they used to tie ribbons as well. After I'd published my book, I had a letter for a very eminent lady, but I won't share it. And she said, when she was a girl, she remembers before the war, they were still using poodles to go shooting with. And you would tie a ribbon in the poodle's hair so that you knew whose poodle was who and that you wouldn't shoot it and mistake it for a duck, because just a little, you know, top knot on a poodle in the water could look like a duck. So they tie a red ribbon in its hair.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (28:43)

That's fascinating because I wanted to ask you when we stopped using poodles for water hunting, I'm struck by a parallel. You know, in the winter months, I live in the countryside, so I see generally men with barber jackets and dogs and guns, as opposed to crossbows going out after the pheasants. And it seems so similar to what you're describing from the Tudor period. But I didn't I don't tend to.

Mike Lodes (29:08)

See poodles, no, but they are starting to make a comeback. There are a few people now starting to breed working poodles and they're getting a good reputation in those circles and they're a very useful dog.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (29:24)

Now, talking working dogs down at the Mary Rose, there was a discovery, of course, of a skeleton on board who's been called Hatch. What can you tell me about him and what his remains indicate about working dogs on warships?

Mike Lodes (29:43)

So the name Hatch is purely circumstantial. From his find place he was found near the hatch to the carpenter's cabin. So the archaeologists think they didn't Hatch. What is evident from his skeleton is that he was most similar in size and form to a Manchester terrier. Now, Manchester terrier is a type of dog renowned as a ratting dog. Dog history, like human history, has some very grim corners. But ratting was not only a practical thing on farms, it was also something people took bets on. So there are, you know, in the back room of a tavern, there'd be a little ratting pit and people would place bets on how many rats can this dog kill in a timed minute? And things like that. Like that. And time and time again in the 19th century, Manchester terriers came out as the top ratters. They grabbed the rat, shake it and break its neck, grab the next one, shake it and great frenzied, brutal activity. But where else do you need ratters on a ship? Ships have dark, dank holds, they have grain, they have supplies, they have all the things that rats like. And ratting dogs were much more effective than cats. And all ships, I think, carried a ratting dog. And Hatch was the ratting dog for the Mary Rose.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (31:18)

So we need bloodhounds when it comes to hunting men or deer. We need poodles for ducks. And you mentioned greyhounds earlier on. Where do they fit into this taxonomy of hunting?

Mike Lodes (31:30)

So greyhounds, as in big, fast hounds, are used for the deer hunt predominantly, although they can be used for wolves. They're used in what is known as relays. So you will see in medieval art and in Tudor art, huntsmen standing, usually with a pair, with a leash of hounds. The collars have a simple ring on them and it's just a cord passes through. So you just let go of one end of the cord and both dogs are instantly released. They would be stationed around the area of a hunt. So a hunt is an extremely organized affair. This type of hunting, par force hunting, which is running an animal down, was very, very organized, a very Courtly procedure, part performance and part rehearsal for war. It was a social occasion. There was camaraderie. You forge bonds of friendship. You're doing something, you know, if you're galloping through woods on a horse, it's inherently dangerous. You're using adrenaline, you're taking risks, you're doing it with friends. And at the end, there is death and blood letting. You're mimicking many of the aspects of the battle, but you're also mimicking organization. One of the things that our species, dogs and humans, have in common is that we are pack animals and that we tactically organize to hunt. And this is where it all comes together most obviously, is in the hunt. So you would send your limerer out in the morning to say, oh, well, there's stag there. And from the few bits, the deer droppings, a good huntsman could give it a sniff and tell you whether it was a teen prong red deer or an old one or a young one. Or they could tell. And you're going over after the choice deer so they know which one they're going after, roughly where he lies in the woods, they surround him. They send scent hounds in to track it down. But once it's on the move, these relays of greyhounds, I mean, happening as late as the 19th century, Tolstoy gives the most extraordinary detailed account in War and Peace of a hunt, a wolf hunt with borzois. I remember there's something like 76 of them stationed around the place. And, you know, if the deer goes past your station, then you let your two go. And then if the deer outruns and there's another chap up the road and he lets his go. So it this tactical surrounding of a wood, flushing the deer out and sending these relays of dogs out. High adrenaline, very exciting and very organized.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (34:11)

That's so interesting. I'm really struck by the fact that a lot of the sports that Henry VIII enjoyed were high adrenaline. They're the race cars and the black slope skiing equivalents, jousting, and now hunting. It's all just about getting the blood rising.

Mike Lodes (34:31)

It is. And it is also the tradition of warrior kings and that you own your kingship, as it were, by being a man of courage and a man of action.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (34:50)

And the other thing that Henry loved, of course, was hawking and falconry. Dogs come into that as well.

Mike Lodes (34:58)

Yes, they do. So there's hawks and falcons. Without getting too technical, we have falcons which have long wings and tapered end, and they hunt by spiraling up into the sky, winding Winding and then stooping down there, they fold their wings and just drop like a rocket returning to earth and thump the prey in the air. A hawk chases, so it flies directly from the falconer's fist and gives chase. Both activities require the person and the bird to be in the right position when the bird is flushed. And the only way to control that is with the right type of dog. Now today we use pointers. The pointers, that subdivision of breeds come slightly later in terms of development and are really used to point game. For the gun, Henry used spaniels. Looking at art, the closest type is the, what we call today the Brittany spaniel. And it is a pointing spaniel. In other words, when it comes across game, a ground nesting bird, pheasant, partridge, etc. It freezes, sticks a front paw out and says, there it is over there and it's rigid and immobile. That gives the falconer time to ready his bird. He has to take the hood off, he has to take the jesses off the little straps on its legs. The bird has to, you know, ruffle its wings and say, yeah, okay, I'm ready to fry. Where is it? There's a, you know, few minutes of preparation. So you need this prey bird being held in position. And that's what a pointing spaniel does. It holds it in position. The person with the hawk can also move around and get in a good position vis a vis the wind, you know, to get a good takeoff. Flying animals require wind in the right direction to give them lift. So all of this is facilitated by the pointing spaniel. When you're hunting with hawks, you tend to hunt on foot because there's chase from the glove on ground. When you're hunting with falcons, it tends to be followed on horseback because it's happening much higher up in the air and you may need to gallop a couple of miles to follow the chase. But when out hawking, which Henry loved, it sounds a humbler activity. But Henry VIII loved his hawking. He was out hawking in Hertfordshire and which was a, you know, a watery sort of a place that all the drainage hadn't been put in. And to get about that kind of countryside, you would use a diking pole. It's where pole vaulting comes from. You see it again in paintings, particularly in the Netherlands, which is obviously a very watery place. People carrying these poles, why are these huntsmen carrying these sort of six foot, seven foot poles? It's simply to hop across the ditches. So you plant your bowl in and you just, you know, lever yourself across a ditch, you know, much more easily than you could by taking a running jump. So they're carrying. Henry's pole broke and he landed face down in the mire. You can imagine the horror of his courtiers because it plays into all those tropes of Henry being fat and useless because he wasn't then. He was still young and athletic, but they had to, you know, grab him by the heels and haul him out. I like the story.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (38:37)

It's a great story.

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Professor Susannah Lipscomb (39:57)

So we've explored dogs in house hunting and on board ships and in the Tudor court. Where else might we have found dogs in Tudor society?

Mike Lodes (40:08)

Well, there's one scene I had wanted to do for the history hit film Dogs of the Tudors, which was the messenger dog. It's something that John Keys mentions in his book, that some mastiffs were used as messenger dogs. And he says specifically that they had a message attached to their collar and at his master's command, could be sent to an address. I find it hard to believe. Like a homing pigeon. So it's like, Roger, take this message to Hampton Court. I don't know how that would work, but. Or go and seek out Walsingham with his secret message. It's an intriguing idea, but he says, you know, they had to be fast enough to outrun other dogs and and aggressive enough to fight them off if attacked. So it's an idea of Tudor life. I hadn't thought of that. You have these dogs running around with important messages. I suspect they could only go to one or two places. But, you know, that would be trainable. I think you could send the dog to the spymaster Walsingham that could nip in the back door and deliver a secret message. Another type, similar lines, is the watchman's dog. And there's lovely Tudor woodcut of a Tudor watchman. So watchmen, you know, there's no police force. Well, it wasn't even volunteer work. You were told it's your turn to be a watchman for a couple of weeks and you had to patrol the city often a curfew at dark and the watchman would go around ringing his bell and no strangers allowed in Tudor towns after dark. So if there's a stranger, you know, the watchman will say, well, you know, I don't know you. Who are you? So quite a dangerous job. And in the woodcut we see he has a dog, a pretty ferocious dog. And so again, we have police dogs today. Many things don't change. And it's one of the things I love about dipping into dog history is we get these connections that ring bells with us because the dogs are so authentic. Yes, there may be some slight genetic changes and I think in general dogs are less fierce than they used to be, but we can recognize them and the dogs just behave completely naturally, completely like dogs. That was the problem I had, however, with the messenger dog, because we tried to film it. We were actually filming dalmatians who were guard dogs for coaches for the second film Dogs in the Age of Revolutions and that, where it had the dalmatians, they also had some mastiffs. And I said, oh, do you think we could get one of your mastiffs to do a little. Oh, yeah, that'll be all right. Yeah, this wonderfully fierce looking dog really looked quite terrifying. I said, okay, well, you know, could you set it off and it'll run to me and bring me a message? Yeah, it wouldn't run in a straight line. We couldn't film it. And then when it did eventually come to me, this really savage looking creature just rolled on its bag and insisted on having its belly rubbed.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (43:19)

So I have a question. If we have mastiffs and things with night watchmen and we've talked about sort of high status dogs like the Maltese and greyhounds, is the ownership of dogs dictated at all by the equivalent of sort of sumptuary laws? Is it related to hierarchy and status?

Mike Lodes (43:41)

We can go back to some hard evidence on that. Obviously you've already alluded to the evidence of Henry VIII proclaiming that, you know, no More hunting dogs who are not house trained in my palaces, thank you very much. Good. So there could be hundreds of them. This is an age where everybody's got a dog for one purpose or another. Dogs are everywhere in society. They're pulling carts, delivering things down little tiny alleyways, they're guarding sheep from predators, they're bringing the stock into market. Dogs are more ubiquitous than the motorcar is in our age. But going back, King Knut issued an edict saying, no greyhounds in the Royal forests. So greyhounds, as we've discussed, are larger than our hare hunting types today and a little fiercer. And if they were in the Royal Forest, people who lived there had a hunting hand. Their hounds had to be what was known as lord dreadful practice, where they would cut off the two central toes so that they could not run fast enough to catch the king's deer. So there are. That is an equivalent of a sumptuary law in a way that, you know, you have to be of a certain rank to be allowed a hunting dog, because otherwise you're a poacher and you're going to be taking the king's venison.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (45:09)

And I suppose pursuing this thought of dogs and their kind of relative role as status symbols, we've mentioned along the way some of the art of the period. Can we learn more from portraiture at the time about which breeds are favoured and what they mean to people in the art of the period?

Mike Lodes (45:33)

Yes, I think so. One of the things about what they mean, of course, is you mustn't underestimate their function in art to simply be a symbol of loyalty or fidelity. So they do carry that symbolic role, as they do in the Middle Ages on the feet of knightly effigies. So it's not necessarily saying, here I am dominating a dog, it's simply saying, here is a dog in my presence, which shows I was a faithful liege. So symbolism, that complicates the story that.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (46:05)

We get from art then, doesn't it? If they're having a symbolic role and.

Mike Lodes (46:09)

Not something else, it does complicate it. But at the same time, and of course, it's always this problem with art that, well, it's not a photograph, although I would maintain photographs lie, otherwise we wouldn't take them. But the types of dog have to be recognizable. If you paint a picture of a little spaniel, you're not painting a picture of a griffin. People know that it's a spaniel, it's a real creature. I mean, there is an extraordinary portrait of Mary Tudor with Philip of Spain. And that if the proportion, if the proportions are to be believed, they're minute, they're little spaniels, but smaller than Chihuahuas, smaller than Chihuahuas. Little teacup in the 16th century. Now, do we believe that we need to collate many, many, many, many more and maybe find a line of text that supports it? Because it could mean that they're reduced in status. You know, if we come out of the Judah period, if we look at Egyptian art or Assyrian art, and we're looking at what things mean there, then many things are presented out of proportion according to status. So you'll see important people much larger than horses they're standing next to and things like. So it gets very confusing.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (47:33)

So you've given us a picture of the way in which, in the Tudor period, dogs are hugely practical. They're working animals, they're beloved companions, they're everywhere. I mean, they're totally ubiquitous. Do you think it's fair to say that the status that we give to dogs as man's best friend kind of comes from this period?

Mike Lodes (48:00)

No, I think it comes much, much, much earlier than that. It's the story with this extraordinary interspecies symbiotic relationship. It's worked out pretty well for dogs as well, given that, you know, dogs are all descended from the gray wolf. And the genetic differences are they're tiny. They're tiny on the genetic dial between a wild gray wolf and an achihuara or a pykines. They're tiny little differences. But there are something like 300,000 gray wolves in the wild today and over 9 million dogs. So, you know, the species has survived quite well with our stewardship, although we have to be very careful with it. It is a fragile heritage. So fragile. As I've said, you know, dogs don't exist as a natural species. We are their custodians. And there's a lot of justifiable concern about purebred dogs and too much inbreeding and too tight a regulation. And I think that's a very justified concern. We need to open up the gene pools. But I don't want to live in a world without Labradors and without springer spaniels and without poodles. There is as precious a heritage as elephants and tigers and rhinoceri. They're beautiful. And I don't have to own a saluki to just love it when I see a saluki walking down the street. I appreciate dogs. I love seeing other people's dogs. So we will lose them if we don't take care of them and take care to preserve the breeding. Yes, they will change over time, as you said. Are our bloodhounds the same as Tudor bloodhounds? Possibly not, but they're very similar. And by being similar, they're a great connection, a great route into experiencing that Tudor world.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (50:11)

Well, Mike, thank you so much. I can't let you leave without asking you what dogs you have.

Mike Lodes (50:16)

I have got a little mutt called Charlie who has got the coat of a papillon, but the character and little legs of a corgi and the behavior of a corgi. He's like a cattle dog, a healer, and he runs around nipping at the other dog's heels and very determined and he's adorable. And our other dog is a Britney spaniel called Gigi and she is very much a Tudor hunting dog at pointing spaniel.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (50:47)

Well, that is utterly appropriate. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been great to talk to you.

Mike Lodes (50:54)

Thank you very much.

Professor Susannah Lipscomb (50:58)

Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher Alice Smith and my producer, Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susannah Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors from History hit.

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