Wolf Hall: Who's Who?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Not Just the Tudors – Episode: "Wolf Hall: Who's Who?"

Release Date: January 20, 2025

In this illuminating episode of Not Just the Tudors, hosted by Professor Suzannah Lipscomb, renowned historian Dr. Lauren MacKay joins to dissect the intricate tapestry of characters depicted in Hilary Mantel’s acclaimed trilogy, Wolf Hall, as well as its subsequent adaptations. The conversation delves deep into the historical accuracy and dramatic portrayals of key figures surrounding Thomas Cromwell during the tumultuous reign of Henry VIII.

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1. The Allure of Wolf Hall

Professor Lipscomb opens the discussion by highlighting the universal appeal of Wolf Hall. She remarks, “Wolf hall has beguiled both those blissfully ignorant of the history and those like me and my guest today for whom the 1530s is our stomping ground” (02:50). The narrative's ability to resonate across different audiences stems from its intricate character development and the delicate balance between historical fact and fiction.

2. Thomas Cromwell: Hero or Villain?

A central theme is the complex portrayal of Thomas Cromwell. Dr. MacKay asserts, “He's complex, for sure. He's absolutely very human as well” (04:43). Historically painted as Henry VIII’s ruthless advisor, Cromwell in Wolf Hall evolves beyond the stereotypical antagonist. Dr. MacKay appreciates Hilary Mantel’s nuanced depiction: “Hilary Mantel did so beautifully” (04:21), allowing Cromwell to emerge as a self-made man whose brilliance and political acumen drive his ascent from obscurity.

Professor Lipscomb echoes this sentiment, noting the shift away from the “thug in a doublet trope” (05:10), emphasizing Cromwell’s multifaceted nature—both his moral flexibility and his intellectual prowess. This duality makes him a compelling figure, blending ambition with loyalty, particularly in his relationship with Cardinal Wolsey.

3. Mark Rylance’s Delicate Cromwell

The episode further critiques the portrayal of Cromwell by Mark Rylance in the BBC adaptation. Dr. MacKay observes, “Mark Rylance... plays Cromwell with this incredible delicacy and subtlety” (06:34). Unlike previous interpretations, Rylance’s Cromwell exudes kindness, masking an underlying complexity. Dr. MacKay contemplates whether this soft portrayal might be too lenient: “Is he too nice?” (07:15), suggesting that Mantel’s influence may have rendered Cromwell more sympathetic than historical accounts might warrant.

4. Lady Mary: Depth Beyond "Bloody Mary"

The discussion shifts to Lady Mary, brilliantly portrayed by Lilith Lester. Dr. MacKay praises her depiction: “I liked that kind of substance and depth” (10:56). Contrary to her moniker, Bloody Mary, the series showcases Mary’s intelligence and emotional depth, rooted in her tumultuous upbringing. Her loyalty to her father and mother creates a complex character torn between familial allegiance and personal integrity.

Dr. MacKay highlights key scenes, such as Mary’s interaction with Cromwell, which reveal her as “a calm, demure exterior” hiding a “torrent of emotions” (08:32). This portrayal underscores Mary’s tragic trajectory, shaped by her early experiences and the political machinations that define her reign.

5. Rafe Sadler: The Loyal Diplomat

Rafe Sadler emerges as a pivotal character, embodying loyalty and resilience. Dr. MacKay details his unwavering support for Cromwell: “His loyalty to Cromwell is... unshakable” (11:48). Sadler’s diplomatic prowess is evident through his missions, such as arranging the marriage between the future Mary Queen of Scots and Prince Edward. Despite political upheavals, Sadler maintains his integrity, ultimately serving as one of Cromwell’s most steadfast allies.

Notably, Dr. MacKay contrasts Sadler with Gregory Cromwell, illustrating Sadler’s successful navigation of Tudor politics: “He is one of the few individuals who manages to stay at a fixed point in terms of his moral compass” (15:00). Sadler’s story is one of survival and honor, surviving multiple reigns and leaving a legacy unmarred by the controversies surrounding Cromwell's execution.

6. Richard Rich: The Embodiment of Corruption

In stark contrast, Richard Rich represents the moral decay within the Tudor court. Dr. MacKay describes him as “one of the true villains” (28:58), highlighting his greed and self-ambition. Rich’s betrayal of Cromwell, evidenced by his manipulation of Cromwell’s papers, marks him as a ruthless opportunist unbound by ethics. His involvement in the persecution of both Protestants and Catholics underscores his adaptability driven by political and personal gain rather than genuine belief.

Rich’s relentless pursuit of power, coupled with his unscrupulous actions, make him a formidable antagonist. Dr. MacKay laments his lack of accountability: “He continues to do really, really well throughout the rest of his life, basically” (31:01), portraying a character who thrives amidst the chaos he helps perpetuate.

7. Stephen Gardiner: The Ultimate Frenemy

Stephen Gardiner is depicted as a slippery and opportunistic figure. Dr. MacKay critiques his adaptability: “He just adapts to whoever is in charge... [and] he can really [be a] frenemy” (23:21). Gardiner’s political maneuvers, from supporting conservative factions to exploiting shifts in power, demonstrate his survival instincts. His inability to maintain genuine convictions makes him a quintessential courtier who prioritizes self-preservation over loyalty.

The conversation touches upon Gardiner's tumultuous relationship with Cromwell and his eventual downfall. Despite his initial alignment with Cromwell, Gardiner’s opportunism leads him to oppose former allies, culminating in his imprisonment and later reinstatement under Queen Mary. Dr. MacKay underscores Gardiner’s lack of real convictions, making him a quintessential example of political opportunism: “He stands for nothing” (25:00).

8. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk: A Paragon of Survival

Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk, is lauded for his remarkable ability to survive the perilous Tudor court. Dr. MacKay examines his resilience: “It's incredible... how he manages to survive” (39:43). Despite numerous accusations and the treacherous environment, Howard's military prowess and diplomatic skills enable him to navigate shifting allegiances and survive his son’s execution.

The episode highlights Howard’s strategic acumen, particularly during the French wars and his role in securing victories for Henry VIII. However, his downfall is precipitated by familial intrigue and political plots, showcasing both his strengths and vulnerabilities. Howard’s eventual reinstatement under Queen Mary underscores his enduring influence and adaptability within the royal court.

9. Eustace Chapuy: Diplomatic Endeavors and Lost Friendships

The portrayal of Eustace Chapuy offers a glimpse into the complexities of diplomacy and personal relationships in the Tudor era. Dr. MacKay, author of Chapuy’s biography, expresses admiration for his diplomatic finesse and his deep bond with Cromwell: “We see that they come together because they are so very similar in their interests” (45:44).

Chpayi’s friendship with Cromwell is marked by mutual respect and shared interests, yet their relationship deteriorates amidst political tensions. Dr. MacKay laments the lack of closure in their friendship following Cromwell’s execution: “They never reconcile, they never have a chance to” (45:44). Chapuy’s later years are dedicated to supporting Mary Queen of Scots, reflecting his enduring commitment to the Tudor legacy despite personal and professional setbacks.

10. Henry VIII: The Enigmatic Monarch

Henry VIII remains a central figure, with Damian Lewis’s portrayal adding depth to his complex character. Dr. MacKay critiques Henry’s governance post-Cromwell: “Everything feels different. No one really knows what they should be doing” (49:00). Without Cromwell’s guidance, Henry struggles to maintain control, leading to increased factionalism and moral ambiguity within his court.

The episode underscores Henry’s inherent volatility and the resulting instability following Cromwell’s death. Dr. MacKay reflects on Henry’s final years, marked by illness and a desolate legacy: “He has no tomb... just an incredible trajectory downwards” (54:00). Henry’s inability to sustain the Tudor dynasty despite his efforts encapsulates the tragic decline of his rule.

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Conclusion: Unraveling the Tudor Web

This episode of Not Just the Tudors masterfully navigates the intricate relationships and power dynamics within Henry VIII’s court, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the historical figures who shaped—and were shaped by—the Tudor era. Through expert analysis and engaging dialogue, Professor Lipscomb and Dr. MacKay illuminate the enduring legacies of characters like Thomas Cromwell, Lady Mary, and Richard Rich, providing a rich tapestry that extends beyond the pages of Wolf Hall.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Lauren MacKay: “He's complex, for sure. He's absolutely very human as well.” (04:43)
• Dr. Lauren MacKay: “We are still living in Henry VIII's world... We can thank Cromwell for that as well.” (05:28)
• Dr. Lauren MacKay: “He [Richard Rich] is just out to get it.” (31:01)

This comprehensive analysis not only bridges the gap between historical fact and literary fiction but also enriches the listener’s appreciation for the multifaceted individuals who navigated one of history’s most fascinating periods.

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Transcript

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit With a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own on Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn Brilliant Rivals, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Welcome to Not Just the Tudors From.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not in other words, just the Tudors.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

But most definitely also the Tudors. Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII's right hand man, once wrote to Sir Thomas Wyatt, a premier poet and diplomat at the Tudor court, that Henry was the mirror and the light of all kings and princes in Christendom. This epithet was adopted by Hilary Mantel for the third book of her award winning trilogy, which began with Wolf hall and which has recently and beautifully been adapted into a six part drama series for the BBC by director Peter Kosminski. Mark Rylance plays Cromwell. Damien Lewis is Henry the wonder of Wolf hall, both as a set of novels and in stage and screen adaptations, is that it has beguiled both those blissfully ignorant of the history and those like me and my guest today for whom the 1530s is our stomping ground. People from both camps find Wolf Hall a bit like the tapestries that were digitally restored to feature in the 2024 BBC series. We wonder at their beauty and skill, but many will want to turn them over and distinguish between the fictional warp and historical weave. And because the story ends with Cromwell's death. Sorry, that was a spoiler. We want to know what happened next to those around him. So let's try to unravel that a little today with my guest, Dr. Lauren MacKay, a fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Dr. Lauren MacKay's work includes the first.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Biography of the imperial Ambassador to Henry.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

VIII's court, Eustace Chapuy, Inside the Tudor Court, and the first scholarly biography of the Berlin among the wolves at court. And she is also the author, pertinently today, of the Wolf Hall Companion. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb. And this is not just the Tudors from history hit. Lauren, welcome back to the show.

Loving to be back again.

Why do you think historians like this so much? You know, so often with historical fiction, we find it painful when it's on our territory, but not this one.

I like seeing someone else having put in the work and I think that Hilary Mantel did so beautifully. When we were at the premiere just a few months ago, I think we all kind of sat there in the audience just thinking, oh, my goodness, look at how this world has been and that these characters have been drawn. It's incredible to see these people who you feel like you know so well and here they are in front of you and you kind of think, oh, yeah, I recognize. I recognize that person.

I think we're going to talk today about some of the sort of side players, but we can't not talk about him. No, at the center of the thing. And the question I want to ask is about his character, both as we see him on screen and obviously on the page. But also what you know of him as historical fact. I mean, is he hero or is he villain?

He's complex, for sure. He's absolutely very human as well. I'm so happy that we've managed to move away, though, and Hilary has really done so much in helping guide that. But moving away from that, you know, thug in a doublet trope, that has always been the Cromwell. He's always been the antagonist, he's always been the villain of the story. And certainly he's always. He really does gratify as a villain because there's so much in his life and career that's a bit shady. And certainly his moral compass is at times flexible, to say the least. But I do also think that there's so much brilliance in Cromwell as well. He really is this self made man. He comes from nothing, comes from nowhere. He rises on the back of his own brilliance and political acumen. And his relationships are so interesting. Wallsey, I think I've always loved that. I love Cardinal Wolsey, unashamedly a Woolsey fan. And so to see that relationship brought out, that loyalty brought out, and the impact that it had on Cromwell I think is just so brilliant. Of course, J. McCulloch did that in his wonderful biography of Cromwell as well. And I also think maybe sometimes the problem with Cromwell is we just kind of link him to Anne Boleyn and Anne Boleyn's downfall. And there's so much more to his life and to his career and his impact on English history than Anne Boleyn. She takes over, as you probably know, Susanna takes over the narrative. But there's just so much more that he contributed as well. His reforms, his passion, his conviction. And we are still kind of, sometimes people say that we're still living in Henry VIII's world in terms of, you know, certain political reforms and religious reforms. Well, we can thank Cromwell for that as well. So like him or not, I mean, he's kind of still living and breathing with us 500 odd years later. But I'm a massive fan of Cromwell as well. I do think that there is room for both versions of Cromwell.

It's interesting, isn't it, because Mark Rylance, who is superb and almost in every scene, plays Cromwell with this incredible delicacy and subtlety. There are moments of violence, but really one feels that he is kind and we see the world benevolently through his eyes. But one of the things that Hilary Mantell did so brilliantly was give us subtle intimations that there might be more to others estimations of him. You know, twice he's surprised like I remember in the first book, but the revelation that others are afraid of him. So do you think that she was letting him off the hook a bit? I mean, is he too nice?

Ooh, that's a good question. Yes, and I think she would be the first to admit that probably as well to some extent. I mean, she kind of fell in love with her character, didn't she? But she came to Cromwell via Woolsey, I think I remember her saying that at one point. And so of course if you're seeing him through those eyes, then yes, it can be a little bit rose tinted. It's interesting. You know, you talk about Mark Rylance and that sort of undercurrent of danger which I think he really does put forward very well. And it's so different from the way Ben Miles played him on the stage back in London years, years, years ago. Of course, there's so much more of the monologue, that inner monologue that is kind of presented, whereas Mark Rylance has to kind of give you those urging eyes to. So, okay, okay. There's a monolog lot going on behind there. But there's so much action in Ben Miles's interpretation. He's a man of action. He's always doing things. He's turning things over in his mind. But Mark Rolance had to really kind of present that quietly. And again, as we've talked about, obviously the historical version of Cromwell and the fictional version, and there's room for both of them. And I think the two interpretations are just so different, that this is what these two actors gleaned from the pages. That's pretty incredible.

One of the characters who I loved the depiction of by Lilith Lesser in this latest series was Lady Mary.

Yes.

What did you make of that portrayal and how does it fit with the historical Mary?

I liked it diplomatic here. I'm really just kind of drawing on. What would Chapuye say in this moment? I liked Lilibet Lester. I think that she had that kind of quiet push poise, that calm exterior under which there is a sort of torrent of emotions. And I suppose we do see this throughout, certainly Wolf hall and Bring up the Bodies, but so much more in Mirror and the Light. Just how tumultuous her life really was. I mean, poor Mary. I do think you cannot help but empathize with her to be, you know, at such a young age. She's the pearl of her father's world. She is, you know, the apple of his eye. She's beloved by her parents. She is the golden princess. And all of a sudden she's being sent away. She's being forcibly removed from her own mother. She is in disgrace. She is nothing. She is being berated by the nobility of the realm who would never, under any normal circumstances treat her like this. And at the head of it is her father. And yet her love for her father, her loyalty to her father, that kind of contradicts everything. And her loyalty to her mother. This is a poor young girl who is torn between parents. Of course, when divorce gets messy, it gets messy for the children. And I think that this really does shape her entire personality throughout the rest of her life and certainly her own reign. I feel like perhaps there was a lot more passion shown in the books. And I like that about Mary in the mirror and the light. I mean, you really just do see. I think Cromwell says that sometimes she's like a child and at some time she's like this, you know, wise beyond her years. I don't think Lilibet Lester decided to play so much with that. I think it was very much more just that calm, demure exterior. But certainly I'm. Yes, I'm a very much a fan of Mary. I do think that when we look at what goes on later on in her reign, I think we have to kind of pause and say, yes, but okay, what shaped this woman? Because I mean she had a hell of a life. And I think that that did really play out her vindictiveness and her hatred for the men who broke her mother's marriage. Cranmer comes to mind. Of course, burning Cranmer at the stake. Not to be an apologist for Mary too much, but just certainly to say, well, I mean, there's just so much more to her and the choices that she makes later on in her life and in her reign, the mistakes that she makes as well.

Yes, and one thing that was very interesting about Lesser's depiction was that it did perhaps have less passion than in the books, but showed a kind of intelligence and a nuance and a subtlety that hasn't traditionally been associated with Mary, who gets written off as Bloody Mary. And so I liked that kind of substance and depth.

I do like there was a scene when know she thinks that Cromwell wants to marry her and so she kind of tries to sort of, she queen zones him basically. You know, I love you like a father. Right, Like a father. And I thought that was such a great scene. I mean the scenes between Lilibet and Marco Islands are phenomenal and it's lovely to see also that protective nature of Cromwell which, which is true. He did try to protect Mary. He and Chapuy worked, you know, around the clock to try and protect her from herself. And it was so well brought out, I think, not only in the books but in the series as well.

So let's talk about some of the men around Cromwell. We see Austin Friars, his home, and we see the people who are beside him. Can we start with Rafe Sadler?

So this is team A. Team A are all the supporters of Cromwell and then we have team B who are not. Rafe Sadler is such an interesting character. His loyalty to Cromwell is. I mean, it's unshakable. We know of course, that he is responsible for the survival of the portrait, the famous portrait of Cromwell. He kept that. And we also know, thank you to Dr. Emerson and Kate McCaffrey of course, that he also kept that book of hours which we now have. In the first few months, however, it looked a little bit dicey for Ray Sadler. Of course, they all had to back away from Cromwell and denounce him as much as they felt that they could. And all of a sudden, though, in the first months, in 1541, I believe we know that Ralph Sadler is arrested. He's taken to the Tower alongside Thomas Wyatt. Thomas Wyatt's another man who just cannot win. Throughout Henry's training, he always really does fall afoul of the throne. But he arrested on suspicion of treason and nothing comes of it. Thankfully, he manages either to talk his way out of it or just Henry decides to trust him. And amazingly, this doesn't actually affect his reputation. What's interesting about these men that we're talking about, and I think it brings out this, this broader issue, is how the women, how the queens throughout this Henry VIII's reign are weaponized. And what I mean by that is that how they are used to destroy not not only themselves, but to other people, the men around them use them to take each other down. And, and of Cleves, we see how that marriage was manipulated by enemies of Cromwell. But Catherine Howard, the men around her, they just weaponize that affair, her behavior, everything to, to take each other down. And so Ray Sadler is involved in the examination of Katherine Howard and I think all of Cromwell's, you know, family, his friends and his supporters, they see that as an opportunity to take down the Howards, just as the Howard saw Anne of Cleves as an opportunity to take Cromwell down. So he is part of that. But it's not just also intrigue that he's involved in. He is very much involved in diplomacy. And that was the rise already before Cromwell was executed. He is sent as an ambassador and he's very well respected. He's sent in as an ambassador up to Scotland and he's actually sent to arrange the marriage between the future Mary Queen of Scots and Prince Edward the 6th, the son of Jane Seymour. And in fact, it's Ralph Sadler who gives us one of the very first descriptions of the future Mary Queen of Scots. He says that she's quite a beautiful child. And, you know, so he's quite. He's. All of a sudden he pops up in the sources, interestingly, after Cromwell's death, he also plays a part in what we like to call the rough wooing, so that basically when the Scots decide they don't want to really marry Mary Queen of Scots off to Edward and Henry VIII tries to kind of take hold of the princess. And so, of course they sack Edinburgh and this is all part of the rough ruin. But Sadler is actually, he's actually involved in that. He's very much a part. And because he's also made treasurer of the army, so he gains these positions. He's obviously very, very well respected by Henry VIII and trusted in these kinds of missions. And so by the last craft of his career, Ralph Sadler is wealthy. He is one of those few individuals who manages to stay at a fixed point in terms of his moral compass and what he's willing to do and what he's not willing to do as these factions kind of undulate around him. And that's really quite admirable. So he really does have strong, strong convictions. The only thing that kind of taints his, potentially taints his life is about. It's sort of later on in his life, he has eight children with his wife Ellen, who we meet, of course, in, throughout the books. And all of a sudden, after a decade, her husband from her first marriage pops back up on the scene everyone thought he had died. And he comes, I think he comes back from Ireland is sort of like, nope, I'm here, you know. And it's a testament to how wealthy and powerful and influential RAF Sadler is that Parliament actually holds a hearing. They up the second marriage. He's married to Ellen and they uphold the legitimacy of his children. So they basically just make it all go away. Now, that never happens. So for someone like Rafe Sadler, that's pretty incredible. And he manages to survive not only the reigns of Edward, but also Mary, and he also survives well into Elizabeth's reign. In fact, it kind of comes full circle because he is actually one of the jailers of Mary, Queen of Scots. And so, you know, this is a woman that he's met as a baby and here he is now sort of as a jailer. I think that's just so interesting. But he, you know, he dies in his bed. He's well respected by the end of his life and it's just one of those kind of success stories. I think that Cromwell would have been so tremendously proud of Ralph Sadler, but he's. He really. To me, Ralph Sadler was kind of the closest to Cromwell in that brilliance, that political acumen and the stuff skills. He's a real survivor, but it's really all on his own merit.

And those who've seen the series will remember that last touching scene with Thomas Brodie Sangster playing Rafe Sadler and Mark Rylance as Cromwell and that sense of his dedication to Cromwell and the way in which becoming privy counsellor he had stepped up into his shoes. But there's a real contrast with the story that we get with Gregory Cromwell's actual son. Rafe Sadder is his ward, but his son Gregory, who was played by Tom Holland, I don't know if you Remember back in 2015.

I know, but they couldn't afford him for this series.

No. Charlie Rowe in the latest series, Brilliant as well. But there's very much a sense that he wants to dissociate himself from his father in the series, at least. How true is that in history?

Well, I mean, he does to some degree, but also I think this is quite typical though, isn't it? A family member is a tainted and executed or disgraced in some way. It's always safer for the family to denounce them, to separate and move away from them. And we've seen this time and time again. It's just, it's just kind of the etiquette, the etiquette of disgrace. Basically. You have to save, you know, this is for the preservation of the family. I don't know exactly. I mean, I don't think that. I think that Gregory and his father were close, but I do think that, yes, he has to protect himself and his wife and his family. This is, this is paramount and I think this is how Cromwell would have wanted. Wanted it. Gregory's kind of a sad story, though, in a way, especially compared to the sort of the sterling brilliance of Ray Sadler. You know, he kind of keeps out of most of the drama after his father dies. I mean, he is made Baron Cromwell a few months after his father is. Is executed, so that's something. But he doesn't obviously inherit a lot of the properties or the wealth of his father. That is of course redistributed. He does, however, and I, and I don't know, maybe this is a nice link, but he does end up actually living in Laund Abbey, which is what we see in the mirror and the light. This is Cromwell's dream home, his project that he plans to enjoy in his retirement and it ends up going to Graverine. He lives there for the next decade with his wife Elizabeth, or former Elizabeth Seymour. He is involved in, of course, again, and we talk about the weaponizing of women. He is involved in the trial, well, not of the trial, but certainly the examination of Catherine Howard. I mean, he's quite eager, I think, to bring down the Howard and he is also, is in Parliament and he also has to then witness years later, of course, the arrests and the one execution at least of his brothers. In law of Edward and Thomas Seymour. So he, you know, so he sees a lot of death and destruction, not only in his own family, but a wider circle of his family. And he dies, I think, in 1551, so he only lives another 11 years after his father is executed and he dies of the sweating sickness. And he's buried in the chapel in Darby. And it's sort of a. It is definitely a life cut short there, but also so much potential. There's so little of Thomas Cromwell, I should say, in Gregory. And it's just interesting that it's such a. Just a different path that he takes to that of his father.

How interesting that in the end all Cromwell's children die of the sweating sickness.

Yes.

Who else is in Team A?

Well, there's Richard Cromwell and he's into, of course, being originally Richard Williams. So he's the nephew and the Anderson of Cat Williams, the nephew of Thomas Cromwell. He's already well liked at court, Richard Cromwell. And I don't think they didn't really have time, I think, or space to bring out these elements of Richard Cromwell. But apparently he was a really brilliant jouster and there is that joust in the. I think in May of 1540. And Richard Cromwell, he just does so fantastically well that Henry knights him on the spot. He's. So if you're going to get to Henry's heart, it's got to be jousting. You know, that's. That is. That is something that he has always loved. And apparently Richard Cromwell does so well that Henry knights him on the spot. And he's already kind of building his own reputation. He has quite a good portfolio of property. If Richard Cromwell lived in the modern age, I think he'd be a real estate agent or a broker. I mean, he just, he seemed to really love just accumulating property and he also becomes very involved, especially in Huntingtonshire. He is involved in a number of property matters as well. And he does really become one of the wealthiest men at the. At the Tudor court. He had a number of holdings by the time of his death. It's interesting. It's. Again, it's another life cut short. So we know that he is on campaign in the Netherlands in 1543. We also know that he goes over to France with Henry viii. He is there in the French wars and about a month after he comes back, I believe In June of 1544, he dies. And we don't know why, we don't know was he injured in France? Did he contract an illness? We have no idea. But Richard Cromwell would die in his mid-30s. I mean, he's a young man. And of course, I mean, the legacy of Richard Cromwell is not so much Richard Cromwell, is it? It's Oliver Cromwell, his. His great, great grandson. But I mean, again, it's just this. Just a life cut short and, you know, who knows what Richard Cromwell would have made of himself had he lived. It's quite sad.

It certainly is. Now, we've got a whole cast of characters who appear to be supporting Cromwell in this latest season. We've got Richard Rich, Thomas Risley and others who are around Cromwell, but in the end will choose a different path. Let's go with Wriothesley. Wriothesley. I found the characterization of Wriothesley, Corby Wriothesley, as he's referred in the novels by Harry Melling in this later series, very moving because I think of Wriothesley from the sort of tail end of Henry VIII's reign, when he's one of the men involved in trying to prosecute Anne Askew along with Rich and has become perhaps corrupted by power. I don't know. But my sense is that we could see one reading of his evolution into that person from someone who'd actually been quite devoted to Cromwell. That's what's portrayed in the series. How true is that? And what becomes of him?

He is slippery. You wouldn't want to have your life resting on him. I don't think he's. He's the ultimate frenemy, isn't he? This is a man who I. I think the French ambassador, Charles de Mariac said that he's one of these men who bends to all wins. You know, he's. He's basically. It's that whole idea of, you know, I have. These are my convictions and if you don't like them, I have others, as Crouch Marx would say. But this is Risley after Cromwell's death. I mean, he does pretty well. He is appointed alongside Rafe Sadler. They're both kind of principal secretaries. But Risley stands for nothing. If the tide is Catholic, he will be Catholic. If the tide is Protestant or reformist, he is reformist. He's not fussed. What's interesting is actually it's not just Cromwell that he turns on it and he turns on Norfolk as well, especially after Catherine Howard, when she is disgraced, he distances himself from Norfolk. He's also one of the counselors who actually orders the imprisonment of Norfolk and of his son, Henry Howard, which I'm sure we'll get into. You know, the thing is, what's interesting about him is he just adapts to whoever is in charge, whoever is ruling, he adapts to them. So he's incredibly powerful, especially by the end of Henry VII reign. So he works with Stephen Gardner to try and bring Catherine Parr down. And again, as I'm talking about before weaponization of the women, these men are using these women, you know, they want to get rid of Catherine Parr because she is reformist and she is evangelical. And he happens to find the conservative faction to be the strongest at that time. So Risley goes with Steven Gardner. And in fact, it's Risley who delivers the arrest warrant to Henry. And I think in that moment, Risley hasn't put a foot wrong, really. He's, you know, he's gone where he's needed to go in terms of who he's following. And all of a sudden, Henry, of all people, changes, you know, turns the tables and he berates him, he smacks him on the head. And all of a sudden, you see, historically, you know, all of that loyalty to Henry and all of that sort of changeability, and now even he doesn't know which way to move because he has done something that has offended the king. And this is a pivotal point. And it's so satisfying when you read about this because you just want Risley to take a hit. And he does. In fact, Henry punishes Risley quite severely. He is accused eventually of corruption, he is dismissed as chancellor, and he is eventually ousted by Edward Seymour during Edward's. Edward VI's reign. You know, he really doesn't have that kind of success story, and he never gains a footing again back at court properly. So that, you know, I love to see that, you know, his undoing is a woman, because he deserved it. Just cannot understand him. And there are a few people I can't understand at the court, Henry VIII being certainly one of them, but Risley's just one of these men. The way that he's able to move through the reigns of these individuals and to be trusted in such a way, I wouldn't trust that man. It's just really, he's an interesting character.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

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[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

And his partner in crime, for some of the time at least, is Richard Rich. Rich, who becomes aptly named when he works at the Court of Augmentations and dealing with monastic properties, is I think perhaps one of the most unpleasant people at the Tudor court. What do you think? Although in this series, of course, he's actually quite nice. But anyway, what do you think?

Well, which is interesting. He's an obnoxious person. I can't stand Richard. Richard, you know, I think he's one of the true villains. You know, I think we should do a series on him as the proper antagonist. Forget about Cromwell. Richard Rich has it covered. And Richard Rich, he is so greedy, he is so self ambitious and he really doesn't have, again, convictions, flexible, whatever you want, you know, he does. He was such a protege of Cromwell and for him to turn on Cromwell in such a way. And even days after Cromwell's arrest, he, you know, we know that Richard Rich is pouring through all of Cromwell's papers to try and find, you know, further evidence against him. And he does very well. I mean, he's rewarded for turning against Cromwell. He's made a privy councillor and he really does achieve a lot of success as Chancellor of the Court of Augmentations, as you say. And he really amasses huge amounts of property and wealth and he does it so well. It's amazing. He actually manages to wiggle his way out of a number of corruption charges. I think that Richard Rich was not just morally corrupt, but literally corrupt. And he again, he is involved in the downfall of Katherine Howard. He actually is given the task. He actually questions the men. He questions Thomas Culpepper and Francis Dereham and Henry Mannox. There's some evidence. And also to suggest that he also perhaps supervised the forceful confessions that were elicited from the men. And that kind of, I think, sets the scene because we know that he will go on alongside Risley, to wreck poor Anne Askew, to try and get further evidence against Catherine Parr and her circle of supporters. And so he is just. Is a vicious man.

And I mean, he does that. The racking of Anne Askew happens when the Lieutenant of the Tower will not continue because it is against the law to rack a woman and a woman who's already been confessed her sins and there's no permit from the Privy Council. The person in the Tower says, I.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Will not do this.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

And Rich takes up the strain. I mean, it's completely horrific.

It is horrific and it's a stain that never quite lose his reputation. And I think with absolute good reason, I think he should be remembered for that because it was an abominable moment. And this poor woman, as you say, it was highly illegal, but he didn't care. This is what he wanted. You know, this is a man who goes after what he wants and it doesn't matter if that path to this, you know, whatever he's trying to achieve or obtain is bathed in blood or destruction or even, you know, betrayal. He's just out to get it. And it's so annoying because he always wants some sort of karmic retribution and he does really, really well. He continues to do really, really well throughout the rest of his life, basically. He is quite popular, in fact, during the reign of Mary. And this is because he's, as I said before, he's just able to change sides. He's not really too fussed about religion, at least for the most part. And I think probably the pinnacle of his career when he even actually entertains Mary alongside his wife. So she visits them while she's on one of her royal progresses. And he takes part in the persecution of Protestants, even when previously he had taken part in the persecution of Catholics as well. He doesn't really. And I think one historian said, you know, he conservative in religion throughout his life, but his endorsement for reform is motivated by politics and greed rather than faith. Basically, and he also serves under Elizabeth for a number of years as well. And he dies, I think, in 1567. So he dies, you know, happily in his own. In his own bed. And he's wealthy and powerful and he has a wonderful legacy and a lineage. And you just think you are so undeserving of this Richard Rich. You know, when you think about Cromwell's son and Richard Cromwell. No, Richard Rich does phenomenally well and it's deeply irritating. As an historian, one of the people.

That he is plotting with, I think, is not too great a word. In the later part of Henry VIII's reign is Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester. Mark Gattis played him in 2015. Alex Jennings plays him in the latest series. Can we talk about Gardner's relationship with Cromwell and what happens after Cromwell's death?

The two versions I thought were also so interesting. I think. I feel that Mark Gatis was, for me, more like Stephen Gardiner than Alex Jennings, because Alex Jennings almost seemed to regret Cromwell's downfall. In that last scene where they're interviewing him, I don't think Gardner had any qualms about getting rid of Cromwell. I think this is an enmity that has existed for decades. And Gardiner, you know, they both. They both moved in the same circles. They both, obviously, as we've seen in Wolf hall, they were in Woolsey's household. But whereas Cromwell was loyal to the cardinal, you know, we know that Stephen Gardiner changes. He is happy to go against Woolsey. But Gardner's so interesting because he really is an example of one of those men who eventually becomes the victim, victim of his own intrigues. You know, Gardiner wasn't really well liked by Henry. He never kind of warmed towards Gardiner. And so that's why I think he's sent so often overseas as an ambassador. But after Cromwell's death, we see kind of Gardner's confidence return and he starts to go after other allies of Cromwell, in particular Thomas Cranor. He has an in for Kramna in such a way he is determined to have that man executed for heresy. And he launches an investigation. And it goes so far that eventually Henry VIII steps in and says, no, we're not doing this. Cranmer's safe. I'm not going to allow this. And so poor Gardiner is kind of thwarted, but he does bring, or at least he does try to bring Catherine Parr down. That's his next kind of big event that happens. And his plotting and intrigues, because he is. Is obviously conservative and Catholic, he doesn't like Catherine Parr and he doesn't trust her or her circle of friends and supporters, and he feels that she's dangerous again. So he is, you know, he weaponizing of women. So he's very much involved or in trying to plot her downfall. And he is one of the men who actually kind of suffers after that, of course, once Henry puts a stop to it. And it's interesting because you can see here, I think, at this moment, how deeply Henry dislikes Gardiner. He has been useful, but when all of a sudden he's not useful, Henry says, basically, get out of my sight, I don't want you back at court. You're out. He finally kind of has a reason to get rid of him. And I think Henry's been waiting for that for years. And he's kind of in the clips at the end of Henry's reign. He doesn't do well during Edward's reign either. He talks himself into the Tower, basically. He writes all these protests against heresy and reform, and he really does start to target the Seymour brothers. I mean, Gardner just doesn't really read the room. And so it gets to such an extent that he is sent to the Tower, where he spent almost four years in the Tower of London. I hope it was worth it. But he somehow manages to scrape by when, of course, Mary becomes Queen, and of course, I mean, on her very first day, the first thing she does is she lets Gardner out of the Tower. He is released, he is reinstated as Archbishop, Archbishop. He is made Lord Chancellor, and he even places the crown on Mary's head. So he must have been feeling at that point like, oh, thank God, I managed to survive. I managed to survive the reign of Edward. And he also negotiates in Mary's marriage to Philip of Spain. And even as he's kind of definitely getting on in life, and I think he'd probably quite like to retire. He's so valued by Mary. Mary, I think, has always adored Stephen Gardner, and so she actually uses him to undo a lot of the work that he had been involved in decades prior with establishing that her mother's marriage to her father was legitimate and that she is legitimate. And Paul, Stephen Gardner is probably thinking, oh, my God, I spent so long on this so many years ago. And he has to basically undo all that work. He's one of those men who just kind of gets by by the skin of his teeth. He is lucky that Henry didn't have him executed for treason. He is lucky that Edward was kind of, you know, reasonable towards him. And then he manages to kind of have that second chance at A stellar career under Mary. And he does so.

It's so interesting what you say. I'm struck by how Henry described Gardiner when he decided that he wouldn't be on the Regency Council during Edward's minority. There's a couple of different eyewitnesses and they have versions that differ slightly in that way that memory does, but add up to the same thing. So one person remembers him saying that Gardiner was too willful and heady to be about his son, and another says he was a willful man and not meek to be about his son. And there's another version as well, but. And an additional point is that Henry concludes of Gardiner, he would cumber you all. He would encumber you and you should never rule him. He's of so troublesome a nature. And that seems to me also to speak of Henry. He thinks that he was able to control Gardiner, but basically Gardiner, being quite so willful and quite so troublesome, can't be easily ruled by anyone any lesser mortal than Henry himself. You know, he's put up with him, he's used him, he's put him to serve the King's purpose. But this is a man who should not be around a young prince who could be impressionable.

I'll take Abra, that though he has convictions and he stands by them. And there's something, I suppose, especially with all the other men we've been talking about, it's quite a rarity. And I just think that he just makes this mistake of going after the Seymours and going after the Protestant faction during Edward's reign. It's interesting that he kind of stands on his convictions there and he's willing to suffer for it. He can maybe give him that little point. But I think there is something about Gardiner. Yes. As you say, Henry just didn't like him. There was something that made him his skin crawl. And I think, as I said, Mark Gatiss brought that out so well in the first installment.

Who else do we have in Team B?

Oh, we can't not talk about Thomas Howard. He'd feel so slighted. You know, Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk. If an asteroid had hit the earth during the Tudor period and destroyed it, it would be Thomas Howard and the cockroaches floating out into space. This man just survives. You cannot get rid of him.

He's Rasputin. It's a Tudor era.

Yes, he is. He so is. I remember actually when I was going through sort of book titles for my Boleyn book, and one of them, they wanted to kind Of Court. My. Well, my Bloomsbury wanted to call it originally the Wolves of Court. And I remember saying, no, no, no, no, no. The Berlins aren't the wolves. And they said, oh, well, okay, well, then who are the wolves that they're amongst? And I just kind of said, oh, Norfolk. Norfolk is the wolf. He is the absolute wolf. He has that moment in the sun again when Katherine Howard becomes Queen, because of course, she is his another niece to push forward. And I think he thinks, like, okay, I've got it handled now, but I think he has to manage his niece because he knows that she's quite unmanageable and she's young and she's unruly. He is almost brought down when Katherine Howard's affairs are discovered. And in fact, half of the Howards are imprisoned in the Tower because Henry feels they have sold him, you know, a faulty product, as he, you know. You know what I mean? He thinks that somehow they have concealed her true nature from him. And he is determined to punish so many people, as many people as possible. And Howard, he gets away with it. He leaves Court, he goes to Kenninghall. He writes Henry a long letter saying, it's not me, it's everyone else. I mean, my stepmother knew and my daughter knew and everyone else, but not I. I had no idea about any of this. So he blames everyone else. And Henry kind of get. Lets him get away with it. He survives that. Then I think what we see about Thomas Howard is where his worth keeps coming in. And that is, we have to give it to him. He's a skilled military man. I mean, he really is. He's diplomatic as a bag of bricks, but he knows warfare and he's good at it. And so he's still useful, I think. And we see this just after with the. With the campaign, the war in France. Henry really trusts Thomas Howard. And Thomas Howard actually helps keep Boulogne, which Henry wins. And then we see this kind of moment where Thomas Howard is, you know, he's a realist as well. He's supposed to obviously try and hold Boulogne for Henry. Henry comes back to England, but he basically says, well, it's not practical. We're never going to be able to just hold this one city in the middle of France forever. So he garrisons it and he goes back to Calais. And Henry is livid. How dare you not protect this hard one city that I've just conquered in France? But Thomas Howard is. Is a realist. What almost causes his downfall, actually, it's. It's it's what always causes his downfall almost, isn't it? It's the. The people in his life, the younger generation. It's his son. It's his son, Henry Howard. Henry Howard. I love Henry Howard. What. I mean, I don't know. What a man. He's so interesting. But of course, Henry Howard is accused of treason. There's a plot against him that he was using the arms of Edward the Confessor. And. And Norfolk is also drawn into this, into this, this plot against his son. He actually admits that he had knowledge of his son's treason and both are convicted. And I think we see Henry now, he's at the end of his life and he's thinking, I'm going to get you, Thomas Howard, you who have caused me so much strife throughout my reign. Now I've got you. And it goes so far. I mean, you know, Henry viii, he gives his permission for the men to be attainted and to be executed, or at least the son is executed. Henry Howard, he's beheaded, I think, on January 19th in 1547, and Norfolk is saved. Henry dies on 28th January, and Norfolk was supposed to have been executed the next day. I mean, the skin of your teeth, it's unbelievable. And they decide, you know, Edward and the new councilors, they think, well, we don't really want to start our reign off like this with bloodshed and an execution. So he is spared, he says, spends the rest of Edward's reign in the Tower, so he's safe. And then he is reinstated under Mary, of course. Mary, even though he was abominable towards Mary, he's Catholic, he's conservative, he's the old nobility, and she kind of feels like she needs him. He comes out of basically of the Tower, where he takes care of a number of his grandchildren, which is quite nice. And he actually, he lives almost to the end of Mary's reign as a kind of celebrated military commander and a member of the nobility. And he's quite trusted by Mary. So it's incredible to me how he manages to survive. He couldn't make it up with Norfolk. I mean, there are so many times that he should have been undone and he gets away with it.

It's incredible and it's interesting what you say, because this idea of him having actually any skill at all feels a contrast to the depiction that we've seen of him on screen, where he is a comic, brisk bully, but doesn't really have anything of substance about him.

I actually preferred. I preferred the Norfolk of Bernard Hill.

Played him and then died in 2024. And Timothy Spall played him in this latest film.

Right. I thought Bernard Hill was a marvelous Norfolk. It's that kind of that gruffness. And yet, you know, when he's talking to Cromwell about, oh, you know, you were in the army, were you? And, you know, and talking just kind of the offhandedness of the conversation, you kind of get a sense of, okay, there's that skill for which he is so famed and so. And so valued. I didn't really feel the Norfolk, that kind of the dangerous undercurrent of Norfolk. With Timothy Spall, I think it was played a little bit more for comic relief. But I mean, he's a Wolf of Court and he went after Cromwell in such a way. Of course, Cromwell antagonized him as well. I mean, closing Thetford Priory, what a way to make friends. But certainly I do think that there's a viciousness to Thomas Howard that was maybe a bit more present in the original interpretation.

So just a couple more to ask you about then. I couldn't not ask you about Eustace Chapuy. Given that you have written his biography, what do you make of his depiction on screen and what becomes of Chapuis?

I have to say, I also preferred Matthieu Amalric's version of Chapuy in the first part of Wolf Hall. I feel, you know, because they had so many. They had so many stories to tell in the mirror and the Light. So Chapuys story kind of had to take a bit of a backseat. His relationship with Cromwell. I love Chapuys relationship with Cromwell because of that complexity. These are two men who come from opposite sides of the table, and yet they come together because they are so very similar in their. In their interests and their aesthetic taste and what they're passionate about. I do love how Mantel brought that relationship out so. So well, I love the scenes when they dine together because it absolutely did happen. We know they dined together on a number of occasions. What's so sad, in a way, is the fact that they have this massive falling out, you know. You know, it gets to such a stage where, you know, when the ambassadors are recalled, you know, then things are serious, you know, that England could very well be at war with Charles V. Obviously there's a breakdown in the friendship between Chapuy and Cromwell for a number of reasons. So Chapuy actually leaves England, he's recalled and he stays, I think, at the court of Mary of Hungary for a while. He's in Brussels and then he returns and he returns we think probably a few days either before or after Cromwell's executed. And there's no satisfactory kind of end or closure to that friendship. They never reconcile, they never have a chance to. And Cromwell and Cromwell's death, you know, Chapuy says nothing about it. And I think it's so unfortunate because I'm sure he must have been feeling so much about the death of his friend but also he's not able to write about it. He has to be very careful, you know, he can't sort of talk about his feelings about Cromwell. But it's just such an unsatisfying end to that friendship. Chapuy goes on, but he's not popular at court. And it's so funny that everyone else had clocked that relationship between Cromwell and Chapuy that Charles de Marillac, the French ambassador says Chapuyu is going to have a hard time now on the second embassy because he no longer has his Cromwell to protect him. So he calls him his Cromwell as if they'd been in some sort of relationship. But such as that closeness, everyone knows about it, it's just such an open secret. And he does kind of struggle because he suffers a lot from gout, he is a lot older, he's tired, he'd really rather be retiring. But you know, when you are so good at your job, it's double edged sword, isn't it? You're indispensable. So he goes on to report about, you know, Catherine Howard. He quite likes Catherine Howard and he's quite shocked at her execution and her death. I think that he feels the Tudor court has become a darker place, a more fractious place. He talks about the lack of direction. He, I think, I think everyone understood, you know, it's not Henry who ran the country, it was Cromwell. And you see that after Cromwell's death there's such a lack of direction and identity. No one really knows what the agenda is anymore. And Chapuy kind of talks about that. He sort of writes to Charles saying, you know, everything feels different. No one really knows what they should be doing. Cromwell's absence is keenly felt. But Chapuy will go on and he does. I said he writes about Catherine Howard, her downfall. He writes about Catherine Parr who he adores. And in his last years his real focus is Mary, rehabilitating Mary, making sure that Mary is her place is secure at court. He's very much a father figure. I know someone once quoted me saying that I thought that Chapuy had a Romantic attachment to Mary. And I swear I never, ever said that. I don't know where that came from. I do not think he was romantically attached to, to Mary. I do think he saw her as a daughter. He was so proud of her. And so, you know, he had really come to care for her so deeply. And so these are his last. Even his, you know, his entire. The last embassy is really about Mary and protecting her and making sure that he's going to leave her in a good position. And so he's so pleased that the relationship between Mary and Catherine Parr, that relationship is solid and he's. He's quite happy. And he leaves and goes to Louvain in Belgium. And there he runs a college, he funds a school for underprivileged youths in his hometown in Aussie. But he always also, in fact, one of his last letters that we actually have as he is being asked about his opinion on Mary's upcoming marriage. And so even in this very last letter we have from him, Mary is on his mind. I do think perhaps right up to Cromwell's death, that's the exhilarating part of Chapuy's life. Afterwards, it all kind of. It just feels different. And it's so funny that actually I'm just kind of thinking of it now as I'm talking to you, how Cromwell's death changes everybody. And it just changes the vibe of Court, but it changes the people around him who knew him, who loved him, who hated him. For better or worse, his death changes everything.

We can't end without thinking about Henry himself, the mirror and the light. We have Damian Lewis playing him in this series, and I wonder what you make of Lewis's depiction. And of course, let's talk about what happens to Henry after he loses Cromwell, I say loses as if he'd mislaid him. He had him executed on the day of his fifth marriage.

I think Henry would see that as losing because he would say, oh, well, I was manipulated into it. In which case, then maybe you shouldn't have been in charge, Henry, if you can be so easily misled. I very much like Damian Lewis's portrayal of Henry because you don't know what's going on under that smile, you know, under that sort of that gentle expression that Damian Lewis has. There's again the undercurrent of this is a man who could just make or break you on the spot here, like Thomas More always said, playing with the paws of the lion, all you can think of is, okay, those claws. I wouldn't like to know Henry, I have to say, I think he's just such a dangerous man. I'm one of those Tudor historians, Susanna, who writes about the Tudor period, but doesn't like the monarch at the center so much. But after Cromwell, as I sort of mentioned before, I think all of a sudden Henry realizes who was running the country, because Lord knows it wasn't him, it was Cromwell. Everything is in disarray. He has people clamoring to fill the void that Cromwell left, and none of them have the brilliance. All of a sudden, you see the emergence as never before to this extent. Factions, all of these people are trying to get ahead. The Tudor court kind of loses its way. You have Protestants being executed. Well, evangelicals being executed, Catholics being executed on the same day. And Henry changes. All of a sudden, there's one final rope that's been hacked from him and he is unleashed. He no longer has a moral compass, but also just a logical compass as well. This is what you can do and this is what you can't do. He has just yes men around him. I don't really see Cromwell as a yes man. I suppose I see him as someone who sees that Henry has a problem and he fixes it. But he's not just kind of blindly saying yes to Henry. He does have his own thoughts and convictions. And I do think that Henry misses him very, very quickly, personally, as a person, maybe not so much, but certainly as someone who was just so valuable and did so much for the realm and for the crown and the rest of Henry's life, I think, is, you know, it's, it's. It. It doesn't. He doesn't ever really kind of recapture the. The glory that he's trying to seek. And that's, of course, you know, him going to France. I think he is very much embarrassed by the affair that, you know, Catherine Howard's affairs. He suddenly sees himself, I think, as an aging man. He's. That all kind of falls away. And he's married to Catherine Parr. You know, he's kind of found the. A companion. It's a good marriage. There is a rapport there between them. There's even love. I believe he's quite altered. And I think there's that moment that's so interesting that the men around him, they think they know how to move him, you know, And I think we see that with the downfall of Catherine Parr, you know, this is how it always works, isn't it? We found evidence of Queen's treason. Here you go. Now let's do what we do best and get rid of the queen. And he decides not to. And I think that's a moment, I think, for Henry where he just kind of thinks, okay, no, I'm not. I'm actually not going to play this game. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do what I have done in the past. And he does the unthinkable. He actually turns on the counselors and he protects his queen. It's an admirable moment in Henry's life because he's never done it before. But I think it also just shows that he's just at the. Towards the end of his life, he just doesn't. I don't know, he's like. He tries to sort of not be that person anymore, as if he's had some kind of awakening that perhaps that has not gained him any happiness or peace of mind or has not done anything for his soul. And so he kind of changes. But, you know, his last years, I mean, he's in so much pain and he's so very, very ill. And I think it must have been a very unhappy final years. And, you know, for all that, for such an incredible reign and a man who really had worked so hard in the name of legacy and what would come after him. He has no tomb. Well, I mean, you know, he has a tomb, but not the tomb that he envisioned. He had no lineage. No Tudor survived. That's really the tragedy of Henry viii. How he began and where. Where it ends for him. It's just. It's an incredible story, an incredible trajectory downwards that he fought so hard for the Tudor in his team that he couldn't. At the end, he couldn't help make it last, basically.

Well, thank you for this whistle stop tour. We have done the Mirror and the Light, the sequel. What happened next? What became of them? Thank you so much for taking us through the real history behind these people and their trajectory after Cromwell's death on up into the 1560s in some cases. Lauren, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher, Alice Smith and my producer, producer Rob Weinberg.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

And do join me, Professor Susanna Lipscomb.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Next time for another episode of Not.

[Dr. Lauren MacKay]

Just the Tudors From History hit.

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