← Not Just the Tudors
Not Just the Tudors
Young Elizabeth I
00:51:07
How did a child written off by the Tudor court become one of England's most iconic monarchs?
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- [00:00]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit with a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries including my own recent two part series A World Torn, the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:32]
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- [00:52]
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- [01:22]
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- [01:57]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Before she was the glittering virgin queen who ruled over England's golden age, Elizabeth Tudor was a girl in peril. Born to Anne Boleyn and Henry viii, Elizabeth entered the world a royal princess. But before she turned 3, her mother would be executed, her title stripped and her future cast into doubt, declared illegitimate Pushed to the fringes of power, surrounded by stepmothers who vanished as quickly as they arrived. And then a father who left her orphaned. And in the shadows of royal ambition, danger waited. From the predatory advances of Thomas Seymour to her imprisonment in the Tower of London under suspicion of treason, Elizabeth's path to the throne was not one of destiny, but survival. Every word she wrote, every move she made could mean life, life or death. Dr. Nicola Tallis is the author of Young Elizabeth the Making of the Virgin Queen and the presenter of a new two part film, Young Elizabeth in Her Own Words on History Hit. And she joins me today to explore how Elizabeth Tudor, a vulnerable child, became one of the most powerful women in history. Famously, when Elizabeth was born on 7 September 1533, documents that announced the birth of a prince had to be quickly altered to announce the birth of a princess. It was disappointing for Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn that she was not a boy. But what arrangements were made immediately for her care? What can we read into those early years?
- [04:22]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, just a couple of months after Elizabeth was born, she was taken to Hatfield, just north of London, and it was here that her nursery was to be established. And we know that even though Elizabeth hadn't been the boy that her parents had been hoping for, she was still given a suitably royal household. And this consisted of all manner of staff whose job it was to ensure that her every need was attended to. And I think my favourite fact about Elizabeth's nursery is the fact that there were four rockers whose sole responsibility was to take it in turns to rock Elizabeth to sleep in her cradle. And we also know that her nursery was overseen by Lady Margaret Bryan. So she was effectively Elizabeth's mother figure in her early years. And it was she who was responsible for overseeing life in Elizabeth's nursery.
- [05:25]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And amazingly, her first marriage proposal, or at least the first negotiations to marry her, happened within a year of her birth. To whom?
- [05:36]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, exactly, exactly. So Henry VIII didn't waste any time. Yes. So there is talk of a French marriage for Elizabeth at this time, which was very much the hope and desire of her mother, Anne Boleyn. She very much wanted that to happen to the French dauph. And Elisabeth is displayed to the French ambassador without any clothes to show that she is perfect and completely unblemished. But, yes, from a very, very early age, Henry is determined to ensure that Elizabeth plays an important role in extending his influence and securing valuable matrimonial alliances.
- [06:26]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And you suggest in your book that there's a possibility that Hans Holbein the younger, designed something for the baby, Elizabeth. Tell me about that.
- [06:34]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes. So in the British Museum there is a surviving sketch of a jewel that Holbein, perhaps we don't know if it was ever created, but certainly designed. And I do think that this was created either for Elizabeth or with Elizabeth in mind. And it's shaped like a scroll and it has the inscription My Lady Princess across the front, as well as the addition of three pearls. And it has often been thought that this may perhaps have been designed with Mary, Elizabeth's half sister, in mind. But I think that Elizabeth is a far likelier candidate because Holbein's associations with Anne Boleyn were far stronger. And at the time that Holbein was working in England, primarily, the only person entitled to style themself princess was Elizabeth. So a tantalising possibility and one that I think that we can't discount.
- [07:39]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Anne Boleyn is of course executed when Elizabeth was just two and a half years old. Before that point, how much can we see Anne's hand on Elizabeth's care? What evidence do we have of her love for her child?
- [07:55]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, the evidence that we have is fragmentary, but what we do have, I think is suggestive of a warmth towards her daughter on Anne's side and definitely a determination to ensure that Elizabeth was bedecked in a manner fitting of a princess. So we do see, for example, that Anne was busy ordering clothes for Elizabeth. And there's one quite nice example that we see of an occasion when she purchased a cap for Elizabeth and presumably it didn't fit properly, so Anne sent it back to be reworked and back it came once again. So I think that although we don't think that Anne spent a great deal of time with Elizabeth, she definitely was very, very acutely conscious of the fact that Elizabeth was the King's heir and was determined to ensure that Elizabeth was recognised as such.
- [08:55]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Of course, after Anne's death, it also had consequences for Elizabeth insofar as she was demoted from princess to lady, as was her half sister Mary, in due course. What do we know about their relationship in these childhood years? I mean, there's a major age gap between them, of course, but do we know anything about their effective relationship?
- [09:20]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes. So, as you say, there is a major age gap, there's 17 years difference between them. And to begin with, that relationship seems to have been one that was built on very dubious foundations, to say the least. And Mary is sent to join Elizabeth's household at Hatfield shortly after its establishment. And we know that she was Very, very unhappy at that time and living in the circumstances that she was, you know, having herself been declared illegitimate. We don't know a lot about her relationship with Elizabeth whilst Anne Boleyn was alive, but we do know that shortly after Anne's execution, when Elizabeth found herself in those same circumstances as Mary, motherless and illegitimate, we do know that the relationship between the two sisters began really develop. And we have surviving accounts for Mary from December 1536. And these do provide some glimpses into the sisters relationships. And we can see, for example, that Mary was making gifts to members of Elizabeth's household, that she was buying Elizabeth gifts herself, so she was giving Elizabeth money with which to play card games. She even wrote to their father, Henry viii, praising Elizabeth. So it seems as though with Anne removed, with that real sort of hostile influence taken away from Mary, it gave her an opportunity to really bond with Elizabeth. And I think in many respects she would have become almost like a mother figure to her younger sister.
- [11:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, because it's a proper generation between them, isn't it? I mean, she could have been her mother.
- [11:15]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, yeah, absolutely she could.
- [11:18]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And Elizabeth participated in her brother's christening, her half brother's christening, when she just turned four. And again, the same question, what do we know of their relationship? So much closer in years, but are they closer in practice?
- [11:32]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, yes. Edward and Elizabeth were very close. They were often raised in the same residences. Lady Bryan transferred from Elizabeth's service to Edward, so they had that in common as well. And I think also, you know, both of these small children had lost their mothers at young ages, albeit in different circumstances. But that was something that I think really served to bond them. And the fact that they were living in close proximity, they were closer in age to one another, I think, also really served to strengthen the ties between them. And as far as we know, all of the evidence suggests that Edward and Elizabeth were very, very close.
- [12:19]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
What do we know of Elizabeth's education?
- [12:23]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
We know quite a lot about it, actually. We know that rather unusually, her earliest lessons were entrusted to her lady mistress or her governess, Kate Astley, or Kate Champernown, as she was until 1545. And this is quite unus the fact that Elizabeth isn't initially appointed an official tutor of herself, because Kate Astley, Kate Champenown, she had been a member of Elizabeth's household since shortly after Anne Boleyn's execution. But she was somebody who had herself been fortunate enough to receive a good education. So she was clearly somebody that the King felt able to trust with ensuring that his daughter received the appropriate level of education to begin with. And we know that Elizabeth was extremely intelligent. She really, really thrived when her earliest lessons began. And we know that Kate would have taught her to read and to write, and that then later on, in 1544, Elizabeth is appointed a male tutor of her own in the form of William Grindal. And by this point, she is learning several languages and excelling in several languages, and she's also developed the beautiful italic handwriting that she is famed for. So she was somebody who received an excellent education, but who also really seems to have seized on that opportunity, because I think in many ways, education was one of the few factors in Elizabeth's life that she had control over when.
- [14:12]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
It comes to her education. I'm really struck also by the influence of her stepmother, Catherine Parr, one of her many stepmothers, perhaps. Do you think it's fair to say that she offered an example to the young Elizabeth of how to be queen?
- [14:30]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
I think so, definitely. I think that Catherine was an inspiring example to Elizabeth on many levels, but particularly during that summer of 1544, when Henry VIII is away in France and the regency of the country is entrusted to Catherine Parr, Elizabeth is given the opportunity to witness a woman bearing rule firsthand, because Catherine has all of the royal children brought to court at Hampton Court that summer. And we know that Catherine was playing a very active role, role in the regency. She was attending council meetings, she was signing letters, and Elizabeth would have been there to see all of this. She would have seen how her stepmother was taking responsibility for making decisions in how the country was governed at that time. So I think that, yes, this had a huge impact on Elizabeth and it showed her that a woman was capable of bearing rule and doing it successfully.
- [15:38]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
We see this beautiful piece of work that Elizabeth produces for Catherine Parr. Let's talk about that a little bit. But I'm also struck by the evidence that she wanted to impress her father. What do we know about that?
- [15:51]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Ah, yes. So we only have one surviving letter that was written by Elizabeth to Henry, and it survives in the form of a preface in the New Year's gift that she gave to him. It was created in December 1545 for the new year of 1546. And it tells us so much about Elizabeth in so many respects, because it was a translation of Catherine Parr's prayers or meditations. And this is a gift that was translated by Elizabeth not just in one language, but in three. It's Latin, French and Italian. And let's remember that Elizabeth is 12 years old at this time, so that is quite astonishing in itself. And in this preface, Elizabeth, it's really tantamount to hero worship in many ways. She refers to her father as being the high and mighty king, but she's also very eager to associate herself with him. So she refers to herself as being his daughter or on no less than six occasions in this work. And this is really her, I think, in many respects, trying to show her father that her education is paying off and that she is educated, that she is learned and that she is worthy of his notice and attention. And it's word perfect. It really. There isn't a single full stop out of place. This is really Elizabeth's finest work. And I think that the choice of text being her stepmother's own book is also very telling and perhaps shows a wish to flatter her stepmother in some ways, but I think is also symbolic of the fact that by this time Catherine and Elizabeth had formed a very close relationship as well.
- [17:55]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, obviously there aren't that many 12 year olds we can think of who can translate A Work of Divinity into Italian, French and Latin, but there probably aren't that many 42 year olds we know that can do it either. I mean, it's quite something and to do it so well and in quite an original project. That's the other thing I'm struck by, is who came up with the idea? Was it Grindel's idea? Was it Elizabeth's idea? Catherine's? You know, that we don't know, we'll never know, but it's fascinating to ponder. And the other thing, of course, is that thinking about Catherine's influence, we have a portrait of Elizabeth from this time which represents the sort of iconography that we see in Catherine Parr's own portraits. And boy, does she like having her portrait painted. So what can we learn from looking at this portrait of the young Elizabeth?
- [18:46]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, I think that that portrait is a very powerful portrait and it shows Elizabeth as she wanted to be seen in many respects, because she has her finger inside a book, almost as if we have interrupted her and she's just marking the page, ready to come back to it. And there is also a book on a stand in the background as well. So she's telling us that she is scholarly, that she is learned, and that she's taking her education seriously. But she is also dressed in the very, very finest of materials. It's very striking as well, that she's dressed in crimson, I think, which really complements her red hair and makes her stand out. So she is dressed and presenting herself very much as the king's daughter. And it's interesting you mentioning Catherine Parr there as well, because I do wonder if perhaps, and we will never know, but I do wonder if perhaps Catherine may have had some hand in, if not commissioning this portrait, then perhaps advising Elizabeth as to how she might wish to appear.
- [19:51]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And we make a lot in Elizabeth's later life of the portraits in which she is bedecked with pearls and bedecked with pearls and how that symbolizes her virginity. But even in this early picture, we can see pearls galore and also lots of diamonds which present as black. And so there's a sense of magnificence there, as well as learning.
- [20:21]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Definitely there is. And I think that this is another lesson that Elizabeth would have learnt from Catherine Parr, the importance of one's image and the importance of using that to underscore your magnificence. And as you mentioned, Catherine certainly loved having her portrait painted and she really understood how portraiture could be used as an effective tool. And I think that Elizabeth does exactly the same thing. So, as you say, she is wearing these magnificent, beautiful pearls. She's wearing very, very expensive pieces of jewelry, which there has been some suggestion they may have been loaned by Catherine. To be perfectly honest, I don't know if we can say that, but certainly they're very important status pieces that show us very clearly that Elizabeth is a member of the royal family.
- [21:16]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And I think the fact is that we today have a sense that there must be a gulf between piety and magnificence, between having a showy appearance and being a true person of faith. And I'm sure that's a kind of puritanical inheritance of the 17th century, but actually, if we go back to this period, the early sixteenties century, there is absolutely no hypocrisy involved in wearing rich clothing and jewelry. And also being a person of faith. These things can entirely go hand in hand, can't they?
- [21:52]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it would have been a very much an expected part of being a member of the royal family. You know, magnificence was an important part of one's identity, just as important as piety.
- [22:09]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
1547, Henry VIII dies and Elizabeth is orphaned at the age of 13 and taken into her stepmother Catherine Parr's care at a time when she seems to be relatively overlooked in other ways. But of course, Catherine Parr has, or very soon afterwards, follows her heart and marries Thomas Seymour, who proves to be a most unfortunate stepfather. I've talked with Elizabeth Norton before on this podcast in some detail about the ways in which Thomas Seymour approached Elizabeth, but I'd be interested in your take, what happened and how do you interpret it?
- [22:47]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
I think it's such a turning point in Elizabeth's life because, as you mentioned, with Henry VIII's death, Elizabeth is orphaned. She's very, very vulnerable in every respect of her life, and I think, first and foremost, she seizes on the opportunity of joining the household of Catherine Parr, who we mentioned she utterly adores. But I think that it's quite interesting, because when Thomas joins the household, which is established at Chelsea after his marriage to Catherine Parr becomes public, we're told in the confession of Elizabeth's governess, Kate Astley, that almost immediately after Thomas joining the household, he begins to come to Elizabeth's room in the mornings. And we know, of course, that Thomas Seymour is the uncle to the new king, Edward vi. And I think that this perhaps gives him a greater sense of confidence in his identity than he has had during the reign of Henry viii, who never seems to have particularly favoured him, because I really don't think that what happened next would have happened had Henry survived. But we see Thomas beginning to behave inappropriately towards Elizabeth. We're told that on the occasions when he would come into her bedchamber and find her up, that he would sometimes bid her good morrow and be on his way. But sometimes when she was in bed, he would strike her on the back or on the buttocks. And clearly this is inappropriate behaviour. But to begin with, Elizabeth seems to have been almost, almost flattered by his attentions, I think. And I think he was. Thomas, for as much as he was arrogant, was also very charming. And as far as we're aware, this is the first occasion on which Elizabeth had encountered the attentions of an older man in a romantic capacity. So she seems to have been somewhat charmed, somewhat flattered by him, as does Kate Astley, her governess. But I think it wasn't long before she began to feel alarmed by his behaviour and I think perhaps also felt conflicted in terms of her loyalties towards Catherine Parr as well, because Elizabeth must have realised before long that Thomas's advances were. Went well beyond the bounds of propriety. But I also think that she was vulnerable. She had nobody really to turn to, to seek advice. Could she have gone to Catherine? I don't know. It's very, very. I think it really does go to showcase Elizabeth's vulnerability in terms of the fact that she is trying to navigate the world on her own in the aftermath of her father's death and she really doesn't know what to do. So it's in the modern era. There is no doubt that we would term Thomas's behavior as child abuse, but it was viewed differently in the 16th century and at the time when gossip begins to spread and rumors of Thomas's visits to Elizabeth's chamber begin to emerge. At that time really the most pressing concern is the impact that this has on Elizabeth's reputation, which was feared could be damaged.
- [26:38]
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- [27:08]
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- [28:00]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Of acting like one.
- [28:01]
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- [28:14]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
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- [28:40]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
What sort of damage could it have done to have this association with Thomas Seymour?
- [28:45]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, chastity was of course a woman's greatest asset I suppose. And had news of this become public, had news of the bedroom romps become public, then it really could have tarnished Elizabeth's prospects on the marital front. And there was talk of marriage for her during the reign of her brother, Edward vi. She was still being considered as a marital pawn, if you like. So this could have been very, very damaging. And then, of course, we know that Catherine Parr is made aware of what's going on and for whatever reason, she initially seems to have turned a blind eye, appears to have joined in with some of these romps. And then it goes too far. And Catherine discovers Elizabeth and Thomas Seymour alone with Elizabeth in Seymour's arms. And that, I think, is the real turning point, when Catherine seems to realise that this can't go on any longer. It's very confusing to try and understand Elizabeth's motivations at this point and how she came to find herself in that position, because we know that she had, by this point, been doing her best to try and distance herself from Thomas Seymour. But it's almost like, in some respects, despite her best efforts, she remained drawn to him. I think it must have been a very, very confusing period in her life, and definitely one that she learnt some very important, if difficult, lessons from.
- [30:30]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I think you've given a really nuanced account of it, and I think it must have been so traumatic for her at a very young stage of emotional development. And the whole situation is exacerbated when Catherine Parr dies as a result of childbirth, and then Thomas Seymour will go on to attempt to kidnap her brother, the King. And, you know, the whole business comes to light and interrogations are made. What sort of interrogation did Elizabeth have to endure?
- [31:01]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Her interrogations, I suppose, were mild by comparison to those of Thomas Seymour, who's interrogated in the Tower, and Elizabeth's servants, including Kate Astley, who are taken to the Tower power for interrogation too. She actually remains at Hatfield and is interrogated by Sir Robert Tyrwhitt, who urges her to confess to all of her doings with Seymour and to blame everything on her servants. And to begin with, Elizabeth doesn't really give a lot away. And Robert Tyrwhitt wastes no time in writing to Edward's Lord Protector in frustration and saying, there's a lot more that Elizabeth has to tell. And he says, I do see it in her face that she is guilty. So he's unconvinced that she is telling the whole truth. She is very evasive, and it's only when she is confronted with the confessions of Kate Astley and her cofferer, Thomas Parry, that she realizes that now is the moment when she needs to tell all. And all of the details of the romps and the early morning visits come spilling out. But Elizabeth refuses to implicate her servants in any of this. And really, Robert Tyrwhitt is unconvinced that she's told the whole story. And I think that that's probably true. I think that she probably didn't divulge everything that she knew. So I think to this day, we probably don't know the full story.
- [32:41]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, I suppose one of the things that we will learn about Elizabeth, even in the course of the conversation we're going to have, is about her ability to stay quiet in difficult circumstances. Yes, it's about this time that she gets to know a man who'll be really pivotal in her life. William Cecil. William Cecil. What do we know about the beginning of their relationship?
- [33:05]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, Cecil seems to have come into Elizabeth's life around about 1549, and he had probably been known to Elizabeth before then, but certainly he sort of. He seems to come into the picture around about the time that the Seymour scandal comes to light. And from the start, he seems to have been, I think, quite a steady influence on Elizabeth. And we know, for example, that Elizabeth was adamant that she wanted Kate Astley to return to her service, and she writes to the Lord Protector in this vein to try and secure Kate's return. Whereas Cecil is saying to Elizabeth that he thinks that Kate isn't a good influence at all and that she needs to have somebody of greater morals about her. So he seems to be somebody who, I think, tried to exert a very calming influence over Elizabeth, and we know that he was advising her about business matters. When she's 16, she takes over the management of the estates that had been left to her by her father. And Cecil seems to have been on hand to offer her firm and solid advice in all of these sort of business matters, as Elizabeth's trying to learn and navigate her way in Edward VI's world. And I think that that's probably reflective of what he goes on to be. You know, he does go on to be someone who's very, very solid in terms of Elizabeth and who she can trust. And I think that we see this from the earliest days of their relationship in the reign of Edward.
- [34:50]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
During the reign of Edward, we have one single surviving set of accounts from her household, 51 to 52. What can we learn from these accounts?
- [35:01]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, we know that Elizabeth was definitely living A life of luxury. At this time, we know that she was really, I suppose, living the life of a wealthy landed gentlewoman. She was spending money on physicians, which I think is reflective of the ill health that. That she seems to have experienced throughout her life. But definitely in her youth, she suffers from ill health, particularly at times of stress. So there's a physician who's employed. She was also buying clothes or materials for lavish clothes, which I suppose we could say is also reflective of the interest of teenage girls in those sorts of things. But we also see other glimpses. So we see, for example, that on one occasion she decided to treat herself to a table that was made of walnut, and she's also buying books, she's giving money to poor scholars. So her educational interests are also reflected in these surviving accounts, and it's just a shame that we don't have more of them.
- [36:13]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Absolutely. And there's another sort of lacuna when it comes to 1553, the crisis of Edward's ear, Lady Jane Grey's bid for the throne and the accession of her half sister, Mary. But we do know that at the start of Mary's reign, the siblings were fairly amicable, weren't they?
- [36:37]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, they were. And we talked about the fact that in the aftermath of Anne Boleyn's execution, that relationship between Elizabeth and Mary really seems to have developed. And it seems that when Edward VI was king, the sisters, naturally, they spent less time together, they were older. And there was the divisive point of religion, I suppose, which was more apparent during Edward's reign, between Mary and Edward and caused a divide in their relationship. Elizabeth seems to have stayed very quiet on that point and not got involved. And we do have just one surviving letter that was written by Elizabeth to Mary during Edward's reign. And in this she refers to Mary as being her good sister. And it does suggest that the sisters remained in contact, and that was what seems to have still been a very loving relationship. So certainly by the time Mary becomes Queen, they hadn't been spending a lot of time together for some years, but they had remained in touch and there was every reason to believe that they were still close.
- [37:48]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
What do we know of Elizabeth's religious practice under Mary?
- [37:53]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
We know that it's quite changeable. We know that. What's quite interesting with Elizabeth in terms of religion, I think, is that she was more subtle in her faith than either of her half siblings.
- [38:08]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And although, to be honest, that's setting the bar quite low, isn't it?
- [38:14]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
That's true, yes. That's also True.
- [38:17]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Didn't burn anyone.
- [38:19]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
No, that's so true. But I think during Mary's reign, Elizabeth finds herself in a more vulnerable position than she's ever been before. And I think that her changeability in her religious practice really reflects this, because as we know, Mary is a zealous Catholic who soon takes steps to restore Catholicism to England. And soon pressure is brought to bear on Elizabeth to conform to Mary's religious policies, to convert to Catholicism. And initially, Elizabeth appears to be receptive to this to an extent. She says to Mary that she is prepared to be instructed and to hear the Catholic Mass. But on her way to that very first Catholic Mass, in something that I think is so typical of Elizabeth, she suddenly, whether she feigns this or it's genuine, we don't know. But she suddenly develops stomach ache and starts very loudly complaining about it and asks one of Mary's ladies to rub her stomach. So we see that very early on. But then what's interesting is that depending on the standing of Mary and Elizabeth's relationship over the course of the next few years, Elizabeth seems to make a show of changing her religious views depending on a state of that relationship. So when she wants Mary's attention and she feels that she's being ignored, at one point she starts talking about her desire to hear a Catholic Mass. On the other hand, she requests an English prayer book. It's very changeable, I think it's fair to say. And I think it's less about her religious standing and her religious views and more about her vulnerability in her position in Mary's court and Mary's World.
- [40:39]
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- [40:56]
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- [41:38]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
A possible suitor for Elizabeth is considered another one. Who was he and why is this option dismissed?
- [41:46]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, so this is Edward Courtney, who had royal blood in his veins. He was of England, English descent. His father had been executed by Henry viii and he'd spent most of his youth as a prisoner in the tower of London. And there is talk first of Mary marrying Courtney, and she made that abundantly clear that that wasn't going to happen. And so then there is a suggestion that perhaps in order to neutralise the threat posed by Elizabeth to Mary as the next in line to the throne, and whilst Mary is childless, that perhaps Elizabeth should marry Courtenay. He doesn't seem to, or outwardly, anyway. He says that he's not keen on this idea at all because of Elizabeth's bloodline on her mother's side. And Elizabeth seems to have been very offended by this. But it's not the last time that talk of a marriage with Courtney will emerge, because when news of the Wyatt rebellion later comes to light, it seems that this had been one of the aims of the plotters was to marry Elizabeth off to Courtenay too.
- [43:01]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes. So let's talk about the Wyatt rebellion. What's the intention and the million dollar question? How much does Elizabeth know of the plans?
- [43:11]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes. So the Wyatt rebellion comes to light in January 1554, and it was ostensibly an attempt to protest against Mary's intended Spanish marriage to Philip of Spain. But crucially, one of the plotter's aims was also to depose Mary and replace her with Elizabeth. And it is the million dollar question, how much did Elizabeth know of the plot? Was she actively involved? Well, I don't think that she was actively involved. I think she had learnt her lesson from the Seymour scandal. I think she had learned the value of not committing yourself to paper, of keeping your thoughts hidden. But certainly she seems to have had, I think, some knowledge of what was afoot. We know she certainly knew some of the plotters and there was a suggestion that Thomas Wyatt himself had written to Elizabeth. So I think it's inconceivable, really, that she had no knowledge of what was afoot. But if this was the case, she certainly didn't make any attempt to tell Mary about what was planned.
- [44:28]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
How great a moment of threat do you think this becomes for Elizabeth?
- [44:36]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Well, it's certainly the most dangerous moment of her life, from her perspective, because we know how that story ends. We know that Elizabeth isn't executed, we know that she survives the experience. But on the day that she is brought to London for questioning over her involvement with the Wyatt rebellion, her cousin, Lady Jane Grey, is executed at the Tower of London. And Jane had no knowledge, no involvement in the plot whatsoever. Unfortunately for her, the sticking point had been the fact that her father was one of the key conspirators. But from Elizabeth's perspective, I think at that time she must have thought her cousin had been executed for far less. And I think she really did fear for her life, particularly when Mary makes the decision to send her to the Tower. Elizabeth knew full well that most of those who entered the Tower didn't leave alive, notably, of course, her mother, but then also Jane. So I think that from her perspective, the fear of death is very real. In reality, I don't think that Mary would have actually made the move to execute Elizabeth. It does become clear that. That there isn't enough evidence for her to do so. But I think given her own vulnerability in so much, that she didn't have a child of her own to succeed her at this point, and that Elizabeth was very, very popular with supporters on Mary's council, I don't think that Mary could really make any further move against her.
- [46:26]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
How well do you think Elizabeth handled this? As you said, her cousin has gone into the Tower and has been executed. She knows her mother was taken to the Tower and executed. It is an enormous intellectual, emotional feat to handle this with a sort of unflappability. Do you think that we see that in the evidence that we have of Elizabeth's response?
- [46:59]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
I think that Elizabeth actually really panicked. I think that we do really see her fear and her vulnerability at this point. I think we know that she wrote that famous letter, the Tide Letter, prior to going to the Tower, in an attempt to try and convince Mary of her innocence. And I think that that was her really clinging to that last moment of control and her using the only tool at her disposal at that point, which was her intellect, to try and win Mary over, which, of course, we know doesn't work. And I think then when Elizabeth is told that, no, you will still be taken to the Tower the following morning, I think we do then see this real, genuine sort of fear in her. And, you know, we know that she becomes very anxious, understandably, and her composure does seem to desert her at points as well. So I think that the Tower has a very, very powerful impact on her and that it does really cause cracks to show, and it does leave her feeling visibly very, very anxious and very fearful.
- [48:20]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I don't know whether people in the 16th century paid quite as much heed to dates of the calendar as we do, because they thought about, you know, St. John's Day and Michaelmas and that sort of thing. But the date on which she was freed from the Tower seems very pointed.
- [48:37]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Definitely. She was released on the 18th anniversary of her mother's execution, 19 May, 1554. And Mary certainly would have known what day that was, I'm sure. I think that that's a deliberate warning from Mary to her sister. I think that Mary, despite the fact that there isn't any evidence against Elizabeth, which is why she's released in the first place, I think that Mary remains convinced that Elizabeth has been plotting against her and that was her way of warning her. But it's quite cruel, isn't it, in many ways as well, I think. And Elizabeth certainly would have known what day that was, too.
- [49:21]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So she's freed, but she's not entirely free. She's under house imprisonment for a period of time thereafter. And I want to ask you the question you address in your work about Elizabeth's repeated bouts of sickness. She always seems to be sick at what feel like convenient moments. That seems a bit unkind. I don't know. What I'm asking is do you think this is psychosomatic or do you think that this is evidence that she's suffering genuine stress, which can of course produce sickness?
- [49:54]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
I think probably there's a little bit of both. I think that there's no doubt that she does suffer genuine sickness throughout her life, definitely exacerbated at times of stress or bereavement. And I think that Elizabeth also knows how to play up to that. I think that she definitely, she knows that those around her are aware of her sicknesses. The fact that she definitely seems to have suffered from migraines, for example, and I think that she strategically really does sort of enhance that at moments when it suits her to do so. But that said, yes, I think she was definitely living through, let's face it, some very tumultuous times. She genuinely, for much of her youth, didn't know what was coming next. And so I think that it would have been understandable that this would have taken its toll on anybody's health. But yes, I think that definitely when she is taken.
- [50:57]
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- [51:29]
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- [52:00]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
To Woodstock, for example, at moments, again, like we were talking about with her religious leanings, at times when she wants to get Mary's attention, I think she seems to have conveniently, perhaps fallen ill as well.
- [52:17]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And she only meets Mary again when Mary goes into her period of lying in and she's thought to be pregnant and expecting a child the first time in over a year after being accused of plotting against her sister. What transpired and what did this mean for the remaining years of Mary's reign?
- [52:37]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Yes, so although Elizabeth was freed from Woodstock and she was taken to Hampton Court to see Mary, who wanted her to be there to witness what Mary believed would be the moment of her triumph, the moment of her giving birth to this Catholic heir. But there was to be no happy, warm reunion between Mary and Elizabeth at this time, because Mary, I think, had lost all of her trust in Elizabeth by now. And I think that relationship was damaged beyond repair. So the reunion is very cold. Elizabeth does her best to convince Mary that she was innocent of what she had been accused of and Mary is having none of it, really. But with her pregnancy, she did believe that Elizabeth was less of a threat to her because she believed that this baby she was going to have would displace Elizabeth in the succession. But sadly, as we know, that never happens because the baby that Mary is believed to be pregnant with never materializes. And there are theories as to the symptoms Mary was experiencing. It does seem possible that she was experiencing this phantom pregnancy. And what that means for Elizabeth is that her position seems to grow stronger and stronger for the remaining years of Mary's reign. Because despite Mary's best efforts to have a child, there is never a child. And there is talk of Mary trying to change the succession and find an alternative to Elizabeth. But Elizabeth is very, very popular with not only the people of England, but also many members of Mary's council. And we do see that popularity and confidence that Elizabeth has also grow in the latter years of Mary's reign, because it becomes clearer and clearer that Elizabeth's moment is going to become a certainty at some point.
- [54:52]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And indeed it does. We have Mary's death in 1558, November. And we're told by all the legends that Elizabeth is under an oak tree in Hatfield when she hears the news. But apparently not what happened, Nicholas?
- [55:12]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
No, it's a lovely story, but sadly one that doesn't have any basis in fact. Although she was at Hatfield when the news was brought to her, but probably not under an oak tree. And we're told that at this moment, Elizabeth announces the law of nature moveth me to sorrow for my sister. And she claims to have shed tears for Mary's passing, but nobody witnesses these tears. So suddenly, this moment that Elizabeth could only really have envisioned transpiring in the latter years of Mary's reign has become her reality. And it seems as though all of the uncertainty that she's faced throughout her youth is now at an end.
- [56:06]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And from there, we pick up the story of Elizabeth I. But it has been a great pleasure today to do the prequel to Talk about Elizabeth, the Princess and prisoner Nicola Thales. Thank you so much for your time.
- [56:23]
Dr. Nicola Tallis
Thank you for having me.
- [56:30]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher, Alice Smith Smith and my producer, Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susanna Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors From History. Hit.