← Not Today, Pal with Jamie-Lynn Sigler and Robert Iler
Not Today, Pal with Jamie-Lynn Sigler and Robert Iler
How To Lose $1 Million Without Really Trying w/ Doug Polk | Not Today, Pal
01:27:16
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- [00:00]
A
Not today, pal.
- [00:10]
B
Very excited for our guest today. You know, my. My YouTube algorithm is basically poker and comedy. And when you were on Kill Tony, it was like my world completely collided. I couldn't believe when you were. You were on Kill Tony, but, yeah. Doug Polk, thank you very much.
- [00:27]
A
Thank you guys for having me.
- [00:28]
B
Thanks for being here. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, when I was thinking of how to introduce you, I was like, people almost think it was rude if you describe you as, like, a guy who used to be the best poker player in the world. But I think you also. You say that.
- [00:42]
A
Yeah, no, I don't think that's rude at all. I mean, like, it's like anything. When you're really good at something, eventually if you move on to other stuff, there will be people that get better than you. Right? Like, for sure. Like, you know, Jordan was the best basketball player. Is it LeBron now? We don't have to debate that, but the point is, like, eventually there will be someone that's better that comes along. So I think that's a fair description.
- [01:01]
B
Yeah. And I also, like, I know you and, like, people in poker wouldn't find that offensive. And I'm like, everybody else is listening would be like, damn, that's kind of. That's kind of rude to be. Like, our guest used to be the best poker player in the world, but, like, yeah, you went broke. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You have to be, like, to maintain that, you have to be on such a grind that you don't want to be on anymore. Right?
- [01:19]
A
Yeah. I mean, like, so in poker, I feel like at some point you have to make a decision, like, is this going to be my career for forever? Or is this going to be sort of like something that I use as a bridge to something else? And in some ways, like, I'm kind of jealous of the guys that are like, oh, I can play poker all day for forever. Because obviously, once you're good at it, you make money at it, you find it fulfilling. You know, that's cool. Just have found your one thing. But I kind of felt like at some point, like, I like poker. It's a great game. I'm very thankful for poker. But I also want to try, like, YouTube or comedy or, you know, get a bunch of health or get. Start a family, do all these other things rather than just be poker all in poker. So I kind of, you know, mix it up a little bit.
- [01:57]
C
Did you know that? Well, first, two questions. How did you get into poker? And then second, when you're in the midst of Poker. And you know, you're kind of the best at it. Do you still have the awareness that, like, this is temporary because you're a curious human and you know that you're gonna want to try other things in life?
- [02:16]
A
You know, I guess, like, I just didn't know how long it was gonna last for. So just, just to be clear for the audience, like, so there's, there are many forms of poker. Like, there's tournament poker, there's cash game poker, there's Potlama Omaha, there's all kinds. So I was the best in one specific type of poker. That's why when people talk about who is the best, it's like, well, you know, what game? And my specialty was one on one poker. It's called heads up poker. And in that specific game, I became the best player. But the problem with that is then if you're the best at that, no one will play you. So sitting at a table by yourself, you're not really doing too much.
- [02:50]
B
What is it like being the best in the world at something? Like, does it get. How does, how does that. Yeah. What the.
- [02:58]
A
It was like kind of crazy just to like, think about that, you know, like when the day came. So I had this, this order of people I wanted to play, right. Because if you start beating people that are really good, other people won't play you. So I tried to go sort of like it, like, all right, play the 10th best player, play the 8th best player, sort of kind of thing and work my way up. And then about 10 years ago or something, I played everyone on the list and I'd beaten the guy, it was right below me. And then there were no more people to play anymore. And it was kind of surreal. It's sort of like you can be like, wow, I'm really proud of what I accomplished. Like, I set out to be, to be great at this. And I, and I made it way further than I even thought I could go.
- [03:31]
C
Yeah.
- [03:32]
A
And I guess like proud, you know, you feel like fulfillment.
- [03:35]
C
Yeah. And so few people get that. So I think that's really. So when's. Who taught you how to play poker?
- [03:40]
A
Okay, so my first, my first memories of poker were, do you guys ever either your parents ever like play in those, like a diamond quarter game? So they five card draw and all the dads would get together and they'd like drink beers and they'd, you know, it was always five card draw, right?
- [03:54]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [03:55]
A
So when I was a kid, my dad would play in some of those, like, neighborhood games. I'D always look over and see, like, the stacks of quarters and stuff and think, like, oh, man, that'd be. It'd be fun to play one day. But I didn't learn how to play poker until. Until much later, like, when I was, like, probably 17, 18 or something. I was really into video games. And. And I was. I was never quite as good at video games. There were always a few guys that would beat me. And then I realized, like, you know, I could play something for money, where rather than just win or lose the end of the game, it's just the game. You actually, like, win money. Playing like, that could be a career.
- [04:28]
B
Yeah.
- [04:28]
A
And then when that kind of clicked, it was like, you know, I was all in on that.
- [04:31]
C
Are you somebody that's like, sorry, I keep asking a lot of questions.
- [04:34]
B
No, no, no, please.
- [04:35]
C
Are you somebody that's, like, all in with everything you do?
- [04:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah, actually, this is a problem. You know, I feel like I need to just, like, take it easy sometimes. Like, I'm really bad at doing, like, a lot of little things. I'm. I'm good at waking up and all day focusing on something. But, like, as you get older, I'm sure you guys know this, right? Like, as you get older, you have so many other things going on in your life that you're trying to manage at the same time. Like, I'm sure back in the day when you guys were on Sopranos, I'm sure that was, like, your main thing, right? Like, every day was about that, and you focus on that. And then as you get older, as you have more stuff happening, as you have, you know, families or as you have, like, other pursuits, and then it kind of gets split. And, like, the. Like, the kid in me is like, oh, I don't want it to be split. I want to be all into my one thing, you know? Yeah, but you kind of, like, multi table, if you will, all these things.
- [05:19]
B
Yeah, my. Like, a lot of my friends try and get me into playing backgammon, and, like, I play one game, and halfway through the game, I'm like, I could be putting this time into poker. Like, I'm like, I shouldn't because we.
- [05:28]
C
Asked you the other night, and you're like, I hate that.
- [05:30]
B
Well, because I'm like, I either. I can't just play a game of backgammon and lose and be like, that was cool. Like, then I'm like, I either want to get all into this, or I never want to play again, you know? So I'm like, I just kind of like, push off backgammon. But I watch people play backgammon. I'm like, I love everything about it, you know?
- [05:44]
A
So I actually don't even know how backgammon works. The only thing I do know is that. Isn't there like a doubling dice or something?
- [05:50]
C
Yes.
- [05:50]
A
So the stakes can get completely ridiculous, right?
- [05:53]
B
Yeah.
- [05:53]
C
I mean, you can just keep going. I mean, you can just keep turning that die and just like dribbling the.
- [06:00]
B
Bet, you know, it becomes a thing kind of like where you're like, oh, are you a pussy? Like, you don't want to, you know? So then people get, I'm a pussy, of course. Yeah. But the problem when people are like drinking and everything, it's like, oh, you don't want to double. But like, you. You know, like people talking shit. And then they're like, all right, fine, like, we'll double. And it gets. Yeah, it gets. It gets crazy. I remember when I was living in la, there were people who like, owed people a lot of money from backgammon.
- [06:19]
C
What?
- [06:20]
B
Yeah, they would play by the. They would play by the pool. They would play by the pool at like all the hotels and everything. Like, because you could just bring a board anywhere.
- [06:27]
C
Yeah.
- [06:27]
B
And they would start playing and drinking and the next thing you know, someone's down 80 grand.
- [06:30]
A
Wait, so you want to get in on that because people owe other people money?
- [06:33]
C
No, I love playing backgammon. It's like something that I'm like, I'm.
- [06:37]
B
Pretty because I should be a good loan shark.
- [06:39]
C
I go through. I go through like obsessions of brain games. And for a very long time, it was backgammon.
- [06:48]
A
Oh, wow. Online.
- [06:49]
C
Just any free time that I had, I was just sitting on my phone playing backgammon.
- [06:54]
A
Okay. Wow.
- [06:54]
C
Yeah.
- [06:54]
A
Well, maybe we should teach us how to play backgammon then.
- [06:56]
B
Yeah. Well, tell them what your obsession is now.
- [06:58]
C
Have you ever played Settlers of Catan?
- [07:00]
A
I've heard of it, but I've never played.
- [07:03]
C
Okay.
- [07:03]
B
She's obsessed.
- [07:05]
C
Yeah. I love it so much. It's my favorite game. And it's just a game of strategy. It's, it's. I just taught it to my son, my 12 year old son, which is so fun. So he can play with me. But it's like, it's anytime people are over couples, over whatever, friends, it's just my favorite thing to we. I have like a beautiful wooden board I bought on Etsy because I want to invest everything I can as a catan. And my dream is to. My dream is to. So they have national championship and competitions, and next year I would. I'm going to enter into qualify and I want to try and play.
- [07:41]
A
Oh, that's awesome. Okay, I'm rooting for you.
- [07:43]
C
Thank you.
- [07:43]
A
I'll have to get some updates on that. You know, I was going to stream the matches.
- [07:47]
C
I don't know. I don't know. But my friend film it because he's like, I just want to watch, like, what this is like for you. But what are the. What are characteristics of, like, I'm sure that you both have. Of good poker players? Like, what are things that you find that a lot of poker players just all have in common?
- [08:05]
A
Yeah, so. So it's interesting because when you think about what would be good, the first thing people assume is, like, being really smart. And that's actually not that important. Obviously, if you're. Let me. Okay. If you're dumb as a rock, you're not gonna make it. Yeah, but it's more of just like, if you're smart enough, you're gonna be fine. The really important thing is discipline and consistency. So the guy that can execute, like, a pretty good strategy all the time, and he's just always, win a big pot, lose a big pot, he's grounded. And they're always able to bring a good strategy every single day. For the long run. They're going to destroy the guy that's, like, really smart, really great some days. But then, you know, some days he gets upset or he's angry or I should beat that guy or feels like some kind of ego with it because the cards don't know ego. Right. They're just random. So whether you're winning or losing, you have no idea which direction it'll go. So I would say. I would say consistency and discipline are.
- [08:55]
C
Probably the most important characteristics, probably for any profession.
- [08:58]
A
Yeah.
- [08:59]
C
I feel like I can think of, like, actors that I admire and I watch their interviews and it's the same. They're like, I'm not afraid to fail. I'm not afraid to, like. I'm just consistent with my. My efforts and I don't get thrown off if it's a bad take or whatnot.
- [09:12]
A
Yeah. You know, nothing says discipline to me like actors, you know, super disciplined people.
- [09:18]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:20]
B
Depends on which one you could you find the most disciplined and the most undisciplined. It depends on, you know, depends on who. But yeah, you find the full.
- [09:29]
C
The full spectrum.
- [09:30]
B
Just. Just so people understand who we're dealing with here. And I should have started with this. Can you just explain to someone like Jamie, what's the biggest pot you've ever played?
- [09:39]
A
Okay, so just kind of wrap up my poker career briefly. Yeah, so I've won three World Series of Poker bracelets. I won the one drop one year for like, I think 3.7 million or something like that. And then I've played like really high stakes live, really high stakes online. I've played on pretty much every poker show. The biggest pot I've won is unfortunately, is a lot smaller than the biggest pot I've lost. I've won some pots in like 5, $600,000 range, but I've lost some million dollar pots or some $700,000 pots, some stuff like that. And these are individual hands of poker where I won or lost that much money. So I've definitely had some pretty big swings both ways. But my style is pretty aggressive. And when you play like that, you know you're probably gonna lose a little more often when there's a lot of money in there.
- [10:26]
C
How do you like your underwear?
- [10:28]
B
If you watched the last episode, I'll tell you, I might have looked extra comfortable cause I was wearing my skims underwear.
- [10:34]
C
Yeah, tell me the difference. Why make skims so good?
- [10:37]
B
The main thing to me is that they don't bunch up. I've got a real problem with the bunch up. And then you're fidgeting, you're moving around. Listen, you feel more confident when you're not, you know, twitching and moving around. I do that enough as it is.
- [10:48]
C
Right.
- [10:48]
B
To then add underwear making me twitch and move around all crazy. It's. It's great. It's. It's comfortable. I. They make women's stuff too. You must love that.
- [10:57]
C
I've been a fan of skims forever. Their shapewear, their bras, their underwear. Feels like second skin. Similar to that. Like it doesn't move around. Also doesn't feel like really like tight or constraining, but just like fits your body. Like I said, second skin smooth. I love all their nude, like, you know, flesh colored tones that they have. They're very soft, they're very lightweight. They're very durable. Skims now for men's and women guys. So shop skins mens@skims.com and let them know we sent you. And after you place your order, select podcast in the survey and select our show not today Pal in the drop down menu that follows. Starting something new is almost always stressful. Before we launched this podcast, there were so many questions to be answered. From setup and filming schedules to branding and merch and Analysis paralysis quickly set in. That's why we turned to Shopify to get us started. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands like us here at ymh, they have hundreds of ready to use templates to build an online store that fits your brand and plenty of AI tools to accelerate content creation. Shopify possesses world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today@shopify.com not today. Go to shopify.com not today. Shopify.com not today.
- [12:39]
A
But I'm picking up like lots of medium sized hands along the way. Right. So it's just kind of like comes with the territory, you know.
- [12:45]
B
Yeah, yeah. So if, if we, so we do something on the show called Memory Lane where we look back at old photos of us and we, we talk about them. Can you show the first photo of Doug I sent you?
- [12:54]
A
Oh, God. What are you going to look at?
- [12:55]
B
So this is, this is more for Jamie. So here, Jamie. So what Doug's about to do right.
- [12:59]
C
Now, he's about to bluff 1.1 million.
- [13:03]
B
That's how much he has, that's how much he's playing those chips. Okay, so what he's about to do here is he's about to bluff into this guy over here on the right who's also a very good poker player, $150,000. He's about to bet with absolutely nothing.
- [13:14]
C
Can I ask one question?
- [13:15]
A
Hold on. I have a straight draw.
- [13:17]
B
Right, Right. Well, yes.
- [13:19]
A
Nothing yet.
- [13:19]
B
He has, he has, he has a shot here. But if you go to the next photo here, he's about to.
- [13:26]
C
Look at him, looking at him.
- [13:27]
B
He's about to bet $420,000 with absolutely nothing. And what I want, the reason I wanted to show this. Oh, first of all, I know it's like you're about to lose and now we know. But like, it is awesome and it's sick. But what's going through your head at this moment? And when you put 420,000 out knowing if this guy calls, I'm losing over a million dollar pot.
- [13:51]
A
Right. I like that. I'm coming on the show and you're like, yeah, let's get his worst moments together. Whatever I can watch. We'll, we'll get the enjoyment together.
- [13:59]
B
But the thing is, every poker player wishes they had the opportunity to bluff $420,000. So like, some people might look at this as like, bad. I look at it as like, I'm like, this is so sick.
- [14:09]
A
Okay, so a couple things about this hand. This hand happened on a show called Hustler Casino Live. It's like one of the big poker streams. And this was in their million dollar game. So the buy in to the game, if you want to play, is $1 million.
- [14:22]
C
Okay, so you, that's your own money.
- [14:24]
A
My own money I sit down with now I'll have some friends that'll take pieces of me, right? So like, because look like $1 million of just my own money. I wouldn't play that big, right? That's too big for me. So I'm happy to have like 2 or 300k. That seems like a healthy amount to gamble. But anyway, so the way this game works, you have $1 million to buy in. And then this show had been going on for a couple of days. This is one of the biggest shows in poker. And people have been playing very scared, you know, like there was a lot of very conservative play. So I kind of came in, I'm like, you know what, I'm going to make sure this is a show. I'm going to go after some pots and try and bluff some people and we'll see what happens. So I raised the turn here with a straight draw, you know, so basically, like, I have a very bad hand, but if the straight gets there, obviously I have a strong hand. And the river did not complete it. It just paired the board. So I felt like in this situation, my hand had some good properties to bluff. We don't have to get into the poker strategy stuff too much. But basically, like, here's a good rule of thumb on the river. If you have one of your worst hands and the opponent checks to you, you should probably bluff. That's a good general, general general tip. So I bet 420. Yeah, 420,000, I think, on the river here. And unfortunately for me, my opponent had a full house, which, which is a pretty good end, which is what you.
- [15:34]
B
Don'T want your opponent to have when you're bluffing.
- [15:36]
C
Yeah, right, right.
- [15:37]
B
But so when you put in that 420,000, what's going through your head or when you're bluffing, do you try and think of some? Because what I try and do is think of something completely different from what's going on. I try and like Disassociate my everything. So I'll go back into, like, something that I. Like, what do I need to order from Amazon? Or, like, I try and just get away.
- [15:54]
A
Yeah. So there are two different approaches people take with that. The first is that you do that one. You just like. Like, you know, I did that for a long time where I would just, like, look at the, Like, a card in the middle and just lock eyes on that card and then think about whatever else in the world, like, think about anything else that's going on and just take myself away from that situation. But what some people will do is they'll convince themselves that they have a good hand.
- [16:15]
C
Right.
- [16:15]
A
So they go, I have it. I have a good hand. And then that way they feel like. They feel like they have it.
- [16:19]
C
Yeah.
- [16:20]
A
They might even look like they have it.
- [16:21]
B
Yeah.
- [16:21]
A
But then if they call, then they, you know, they don't have it, but they convince themselves. You know, your mind's pretty powerful. You can play a lot of tricks on yourself, right?
- [16:29]
B
Yeah.
- [16:29]
A
So those are kind of the two schools of thought, really. I always just try to, like, stay still and look at a card and not give anything off, basically.
- [16:35]
B
I feel like the guy on the right, Tom, for people who don't know, that's Tom Dwan, I feel like he kind of invented on high stakes poker that, like, stare at that middle card and just. I think he was bluffing, like, Barry Greenstein in a hand, and he was just staring at the middle card like. And people were like, this guy has. He looked, like, hypnotized, like, in a way. And that. I feel like after that, everyone started doing that.
- [16:56]
A
I'm not sure where it originally came from, so I guess I can't say if it was him or not, but I can say, like, it's a relatively common thing to just, like, find some spot and stare, because. Good. Like, look at this right now, this guy. Imagine you're going to bet 400,000 on the river and the guy's just staring you down and you're going to try and bluff him. You know, it's pretty awkward.
- [17:15]
C
Well, that's what I was going to ask you, too, is because I know nothing about poker and that career, even though Rob, that was his life for so long. I know that, like, consistency, like you were saying, those characters are important, but how much also, or when did you start to think about, if at all, like, reading other people, like, when did that enter? Because that's part of it, right?
- [17:39]
A
Yeah. So there. There are a lot of different styles in poker, there are some guys that are more math and some guys that are more like that. I'm more on the math side. Okay. So my strategy is more about not giving anything away. That said, sometimes there are things that happen where you're like, I need to take that into consideration. Right. Like, particularly if it's a newer player or if someone says something that, you know, sounds kind of weird. But the basic rule of thumb is when people try to seem strong, they're weak. When people try to seem weak, they're strong. So when people are, like, kind of hiding and not saying anything in the quiet, and that's usually a good hand. That's, like, not trying to bring attention to it. And when people kind of like, you know, puff themselves up a little bit, like, you know, look. Look kind of tough, they throw the chips out there. That's usually a little more likely to be weak. Now, that's not something you can just take the bank.
- [18:23]
C
Right, Right.
- [18:24]
A
People will do all kinds of stuff. But if I lean any direction, it's sort of like a classic human emotion of, like, hide when you're strong, and, like, present yourself strongly when you.
- [18:33]
C
Oh, my God, I'd be the worst poker player.
- [18:35]
A
I mean, if you're that good at Settlers at Catan, I think you'd probably.
- [18:37]
C
Be, okay, I will. Rob was what. Rob was talking to me earlier and wondering how. How long after you learned Catan would it probably take for you to just dominate?
- [18:47]
A
Well, I don't know the rules of the game.
- [18:48]
B
Right. Just a typical board game. Like, I feel like for you, like, some. I know, again, we talked. I talked about this with you before we started. But, like, when I go to Atlantic City, I see guys who have been playing there for 20 years, and they're stuck in the same pattern in their head of, like, I'm just so unlucky. They never try and learn. Like, there's people who believe you can't. Like, I don't know if you're around this ever, because, like, these are people that like lower stakes. But, like, you can't learn how to play poker. Like, it's just the luck of the cards, the draw. And it's some people who've been playing for 20 years, and you still. And you see it, and it's crazy there.
- [19:21]
A
So for some reason, there is this. This bastion of poker players where they're old guys that think, like, well, you haven't played nearly as many hands as I've played, you know.
- [19:29]
B
Yeah.
- [19:30]
A
Kind of mentality. But the thing is poker, you have to learn. Right. So if you just spend years playing, you're not learning, it kind of doesn't matter that you're spending all those years. You have to spend them productively and play hands. Go study, look at what you're supposed to do. Play more hands. Study, ask questions, have a poker group learn. Like that cycle is what makes you good at poker. Not just playing. You know, you actually try and improve too.
- [19:54]
C
Yeah.
- [19:54]
B
Yeah. Well, that's what I was saying before where like I blame Doug for the, the poker players today on average being much better is because he put out a series on YouTube called Poker Hands. And it was just showing people a poker hand from like a stream and explaining what people are doing right, what they're doing wrong.
- [20:11]
C
Wow.
- [20:12]
B
And it, to me, I don't know if you agree. I'm sure you do, but like, it changed poker. Like it made like you would go play at games where guys used to have no idea what they were doing and now they weren't like as good as Doug or like people who are professionals, but they, they stopped making a lot of mistakes.
- [20:28]
A
They were making it made it way. So when I started making YouTube content for poker, it was like 2016, so like almost a decade now. And when I entered the landscape, there were very few people making poker content and there were no good players making poker content.
- [20:43]
C
Well, because they didn't want to, like, they didn't want anyone to get good, I guess. Right. I was going to say, that's very generous of you.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah, very well.
- [20:49]
A
But remember, no one was playing me anymore, so I didn't really have much to lose.
- [20:52]
C
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's where you graduate to, right? I guess.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah. So I actually started a poker training website called Upswing Poker. And in conjunction with that, I started making YouTube videos where I would teach people how to play poker. So, yeah, I'd break down famous hands, big hands, you know, hands between well known people, like all kinds of interesting stuff. And I just say, like, okay, like this is good, this is bad. This is why I think the main thing is it made it really accessible for people where, you know, it used to be kind of unclear where to just learn. Learn poker easily. Like maybe you sign up for a training site, but there wasn't good, there weren't good resources for someone just to kind of learn about hands in general until, until the poker hand series. So that's still probably my most popular series of poker content I've done. But yeah, I think it helped a lot of people get better at poker. But there Are pros and cons to that too? Right. It might make the average game a little bit tougher, which is bad. But now you have more people getting into poker, more people trying to learn poker, more people kind of coming up through poker. So it's a trade off. The average game gets a little tougher, but now you have more people playing. And the reality is a lot of people, they're just not going to put in the effort to try hard and to try and learn because it's boring and they just want to relax and gamble with their friends, which is fine. I mean, you're allowed to do that your money.
- [22:03]
C
Yeah.
- [22:04]
A
So, yeah, there's some give and take with that.
- [22:06]
B
But see, I feel like learning like those charts and like, and, and putting that time. I think, like it was boring and a lot of people didn't want to do it. But when you came out with these videos that people could watch on like while they're eating lunch and this, like, I think a lot of people were like, oh, because when did that series come out? Like, when did you start poker hands?
- [22:22]
A
2016.
- [22:23]
B
2016, right. So I had probably been playing poker for like 10 years on and off or whatever, and I had kind of fallen out of love with it. Like, where I was like, I don't know, it's just, I don't really feel like playing. And then I started watching your videos and it was like something unlocked in my brain where it was like, it was almost like you, you had this like belief in something and now it was a fact, you know, like, you're like, oh my God, this guy who's the best is telling you, like, no, this is what you. And because I had the knowledge I had in poker and then I could combine it with like this thing now that I'm getting. And like what I had learned was like, use it like the patience and being able to sit there and then being able to read people and being. And you know what a big thing is. Like, you need to be able to walk up to a game and be like, this is not a good game. I should leave. Like, especially when back in the day when like I had a.
- [23:07]
C
Life lessons there.
- [23:08]
B
Yeah, yeah. Poker is very.
- [23:09]
A
So, so what you're saying is like, just when you thought you were out, they pulled you back.
- [23:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what happened.
- [23:17]
A
Yeah.
- [23:17]
B
And I was like, I was like, oh, my God. And like you just felt this unlock in your head. And when you were back playing poker, like, it was because there weren't a lot of people Watching at the time. Like, now everybody has, like, studied and done all this stuff that you were like, oh, my God, that guy's really doing that. And it's something that I was doing six months ago. And you're like, he doesn't know. You're not supposed to do that. And you could just sit there and like, oh, it was. Yeah, it was crazy when the. And then, like, you're putting on your friends to stuff and they're like, dude, thank you so much. When you're, like, showing them your videos, you know, Cuz.
- [23:44]
C
So cool.
- [23:44]
B
I used to sit on Full Tilt poker and just play for. I was also abusing, like, painkillers and stuff at the time. But I would just sit there, like, smoke weed, take painkillers and just play poker for 18 hours, go to bed and just repeat. And I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I was just like, yeah, I'm having a ball. Like, I'm. I'm having fun. And then graduate to, you know, watching his videos and learning. And then I joined the training site you had for a while. But then when I got deep into that, I realized I'm like, the reason I love poker is because I don't. I don't have to sit home and study. Like, and. Because, like, that. That just wasn't for me. Like, I would. And it was also, like, in the beginning when you were trying to study that stuff and you. And it was like, okay, I'm changing my game now. And then I would lose. I blame you. You know, I'd be like, I did what Doug said and I fucking lost. I should have just did what I was doing. Like, you know, I was crazy. I was living in Vegas and stuff. But, like, yeah, it was. Thank you.
- [24:35]
A
I think, actually, the more I think about this, I'm changing sides. You're right. It was my fault. Apologize. I came here to apologize. I'm so sorry for what I did over those years.
- [24:43]
B
Yeah, completely your fault. No, but you did. You made a lot of. Including me. You made a lot of people more confident poker players, you know, like, to be able to sit down and be like, I. Because you used to leave, like, playing poker when you lost and have no clue if what you did was right or wrong. You'd be like, I don't know. I think that was okay. Like, and then. But now when you leave, like, there was. There's something in your head where you're like, you know what? I did the right thing and I lost. It's okay. Let it go, you know, yeah.
- [25:09]
A
And especially nowadays because there's lots of tools like software you can use to get better and improve, like actually playing the game. Like, I own a poker software company called Lucid Poker, if you want to learn how to play poker, guys. But now there's actually tools you can use and train with and see like what was right. Whereas back in the day, man, like, I know what you're talking about because I came up in poker probably 2000. I started in 2007 or eight or something like that. And when I started, there was like nothing out there. Like, I used to drive my dad's beat up minivan down to like Barnes and Noble and like you know, to try and read the books for free and then leave, you know, to get some tips in and stuff because I had no money. Yeah. And that was like how you learned because there wasn't, you know, two plus two. Poker is a big poker forum. They used to have good strategies to have to for the time. But yeah, there wasn't, there wasn't this, you know, ability to just know the answers. Like you, I know you're talking about, you go play a hand, you get stacked and you just, you would just feel, you know, confused and upset about it for days and there would be no, eventually, you know, it gets better and you play more or whatever. But now it's like, I can go look, what was the answer? Okay, I should do that next time. You know, now there's actual answers to stuff.
- [26:11]
C
I think that's good. But there's also that missing piece that you had where there's like this eagerness and there's this drive to learn that you will do whatever it takes to like sitting at Barnes and Noble and reading these books for free, you know, that I think I, look, I love being able to order something right now and know that it's being delivered within 24 hours. But like the easy accessibility, I think we're losing a lot of our, our drive and I worry for our kids for that. I, so, so I, I, I appreciate the convenience and the ability to learn things, but I feel like there also has to be that like, initiative. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Like, my 12 year old just last night asked me, how do I learn how to play poker? So I want to lead him in the right direction because I think it's because he's heard us say that we want to get a poker table for our.
- [26:57]
A
Wait till you're 13.
- [26:59]
C
Yeah, exactly. Make it, make it, make it worth it. Yeah, but you know, I just, I admire that. I admire that you were going to do whatever it takes because you had a genuine interest in something and wanted to learn.
- [27:09]
A
Yeah, no, I mean my poker career, like, I came from no money. I built my whole career. So I, you know, I'm proud of what I've done over the years. And it was obviously I got lucky in some key spots along the way.
- [27:20]
C
But I think you generate luck.
- [27:22]
A
You do to some extent. You know, like there was, there was, for example, the big tournament that I won with nine people left. I got all in, you know, pretty far behind another player and I hit the right card to double up my stack and I went on to win the tournament. Right. And that was a very key moment for me in my career. It's like, well, you know, was I the best player at that table? Like, in my opinion, I was. But at the end, at the end of the day, if I don't hit that card, I'm out and I get ninth place money instead of first place money. So. So there's, there's a little bit of both. Like, I do believe that, going back to the drive thing, I worry about that too because I have two very, very small kids and I think about like when I was coming up, like I was hungry, I wanted to make something in my life and I didn't have a lot of money in my family. And you know, I worry a little bit for them, like, will they still have that kind of drive to try and be someone? To try and, you know, go out in the world and do something and like create their own journey? Or will they just be like, ah, you know what, life's okay or cozy or whatever.
- [28:15]
C
Yeah.
- [28:16]
A
I hope that they have that same drive.
- [28:17]
C
Well, I think having you as their dad, they will. Cause it's just like in their DNA. So then what's next? So what's, what's the next goal? Like, where is it comedy now?
- [28:27]
A
Yeah. So recently, the last like five, six months, I've been on like this like comedy detour where I went to kill Tony, as you mentioned, and I ended up playing heads up with Tony Hinchcliffe in a high stakes, completely hammered heads up match at like three in the morning at Mitzi's. And the stakes were basically like, you know, my 20 or it was $20,000. And if I win, I get to go and kill Tony. And if I lose, I lose $20,000. Okay, so I lost. And then I'm like, all right, rematch. If I lose, I lose 40,000 and then I won. And then we did, like, a tiebreaker at the end, and I ended up winning and I got to go on to kill Tony twice, which was as.
- [29:04]
C
A judge or like, as doing stand up.
- [29:06]
A
Like doing a minute of stand up.
- [29:07]
C
And you've never done that before?
- [29:08]
A
I had never done stand up before. Yeah, it was. It was crazy. It was pretty crazy. The next day, I'm like, shaking off, you know, the alcohol, and I'm like, wait, I should probably, like, learn how to do this.
- [29:19]
B
How long did you have in between? Yeah.
- [29:22]
A
So he said I can go whenever I wanted so I could take some time, but I didn't want to wait too, too long before I went up on and did it. So I spent, like, probably like a month or two before I went up.
- [29:33]
C
For the first time, like, making your set?
- [29:35]
A
Yeah. Wow. So I wrote. I wrote, like, my set and.
- [29:38]
B
And you didn't go try it out anywhere?
- [29:39]
A
I did some mics and stuff.
- [29:40]
B
Oh, you did? Okay.
- [29:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, no. I mean, like, I'd never done stand up before that match. Right, right, right. So then I was like, okay, I want to write some material and then go out and test it. And so I've gone on twice now. One time went amazing. One time did not go so amazing.
- [29:56]
B
The second time didn't go. I only saw the first one. The second time didn't go great.
- [29:59]
A
When you. When you bomb. Okay, I didn't bomb. Bomb. I did. I did, like, Okay. I did okay.
- [30:04]
B
Was it the material or did you mess up or.
- [30:07]
A
I think. I think I delivered the material kind of poorly. Like, I was too stiff with it. And then I think, like, I also. Yeah, the material, I didn't. I didn't love. In retrospect, it still did okay. I mean, I shouldn't. I shouldn't, you know, complain. It's, you know, like it is. The first time was such a rush, right? It went on. It killed. I got like a standing ovation in the middle. It was just like. I'm like, this is amazing.
- [30:28]
B
But then the second time, did you go and thinking, like, I got this.
- [30:30]
A
Yeah, kind of. Yeah, that's.
- [30:33]
B
That's. I guess that's trouble.
- [30:35]
A
No, I don't have this. There was a funny moment, by the way, before I went out. The second time, I'm standing there and by the way, it's the most nerve wracking ever when you're behind the stage and you're about to come out because they have, like an X and an arrow and you're just, like, trying to stay calm. Right. And they have these production guys back there, and one of them comes up like, oh, Doug, good to see you again. Whatever. Yeah. He's like, man, like, you know, how you doing? How you feel? And I'm like, oh, man. Honestly, like, it's really stressful right now. I'm about to have to walk out the store. And he goes, dude, oh, man. People like this right over there in that corner, people have panic attacks. They're over. Over there all the time. Yeah. Not make me feel better, man.
- [31:06]
C
Thanks.
- [31:07]
B
I mean, there's some of the best comedians in the world still. Still say they black out, like, when they go out there, like, onto a stage to do material. And not. Not every time, but there are just times where, like, they'll be like, right about to go on and be like, what am I doing? It's crazy.
- [31:20]
A
Oh, it was like that. I mean, so I went on and then there's a two week delay between when you go on and when it airs. And I'm like, how did that go? I'm wondering how that. Cause like, you kind of. Yeah, you kind of black out a little bit. Yeah, you just go up there and you try and do your thing. And that's kind of. That's kind of it. But I mean, I've been doing, like. I've still been sticking with it. I've been doing some, like, smaller shows and writing material every day as much as I can. And I've been. Yeah, I've been trying to work on. On. I think I could be. I think I could be pretty good. I don't know. I don't know how far I can go, but I just, you know, it's kind of like before, like, it's like the new journey, right?
- [31:53]
C
Yeah.
- [31:53]
A
It's like my Settlers of Catan.
- [31:55]
C
Yeah. Do it.
- [31:57]
B
Yeah. See, I've never done stand up. I would never do stand up. But like, we've won like, awards and you go up and like, accept, and then you don't even know you're about to go up. They're just like. They say your name and you're like, what? Like. And then you're up there and you're. And then. But when you walk away, you go, what did I say? Like, I don't remember. And then there's people who are like. I could tell when you see them that they're like, like, you didn't. You didn't thank me, huh? And you're like, I don't. I don't know what I say.
- [32:20]
A
Well, you gotta thank your mom.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah.
- [32:22]
C
No, but when we went up there, we didn't speak, right. Like, there was always somebody else to speak.
- [32:26]
B
When we did, like the Young Star Awards, I cried.
- [32:29]
C
Do you remember? You were like, why are you crying? I don't know. But when we would be up on stage at like the Emmys or the Golden Globes or whatever, and obviously one of our other cast members would speak, when I would just be up there and looking at everyone, I would feel like paralyzed, like frozen. Like, it's just. It's a lot of energy. It's a lot of power, like, coming your way. It's, it's. It's a lot to take in.
- [32:55]
B
See, I never felt any pressure with that because I didn't.
- [32:58]
C
I didn't feel pressure. I just was like, it was just right a lot.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah, I didn't really feel anything. It was once you have to speak where I'd be like. Like, even, like, I gave a best man speech at my best friend's wedding. I blacked out. Like, I don't even know. And it was like, I knew everybody. We were hanging out all week. Like, it was totally fine, but like. And I wasn't really nervous leading up to it. But then as soon as it's like, you know, ding, ding, ding. It's like, all right, Robert. And you stand up like you. There's like this tunnel you enter and I'm like, I don't know what I'm like, did I say it all?
- [33:24]
A
It's also a little bit different too, right? So, for example, like, what I did before this, I do YouTube videos, right? I think like a medium sized YouTube channel. And it's so different with YouTube because you record it, you know, you don't like that. Delete that. You get. Until you get a good clip. And I have a great editor and then he puts it all together so there's no stakes, right? You just do your best in each moment, and if you need to read a retake, you do a retake. So there's really no stakes at all. You just had to get to eventually where you're doing it correctly. And over time you get better and. And there's no pressure. Whereas when you do something that's like live audience, there is incredible pressure. And now it's like you've almost built up all these bad habits, really. Oh, new do, new take. I'll do new take. You know.
- [34:03]
B
Do.
- [34:03]
A
Do a new take.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:05]
A
And now you can't do that anymore. You got one take. So you gotta do it in this take now. And that, that's like, really stressful, you know, to. To go from that kind of content before where you have that freedom, where there's no pressure like that to not do it now. And it's just you. It's just you in a microphone, so there's no way to save yourself. And I watch, like, all of the comedians I can now to try and, like, learn and see what people do. And it's just crazy how talented these people are. It might be like the toughest thing, I think.
- [34:34]
C
I think it's the hardest thing in the world, but I think you. It's going to. And it sounds like you're on your way of just. You need to discover that for what freedom is in that arena. Do you know what I mean? Like, that flow, that freedom of just like the surrender of like. It's not always. It's not going to be specifically how you rehearse, but that sometimes leads to the best moments.
- [34:56]
A
Yeah, right. I think also, like today, right, we're talking. There's never going to be a moment where we just mess up and don't talk for 15 seconds. Right?
- [35:03]
C
Right.
- [35:03]
A
Because we're talking, we're thinking, we're responding. You need it to get to that point where it's the same as talking, it's the same as kind of who you are.
- [35:10]
B
But even here, it's like it's all of our responsibility to talk. Or when you're up there, it's. Everyone's just like, hey, we're supposed to be being quiet. You know, like, if me and her were quiet for a while, you'd be like, what the is wrong with them? Like, that's. That's guy. But I love, like, quirky comedians, and maybe that could be your stick. Like, when you mess up, you go, all right, we're. We're cutting that. Let's do again. You know, take two. Like, you do it like you're old pretty quickly. Yeah. But that's. Then it starts to get funny again later. You know, you really got to commit.
- [35:35]
A
I think maybe you just got to get better.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, you should just get better.
- [35:38]
A
We had some. Some shows. I'm doing like five or ten minute sets. Right. So just like, early on, maybe like one of the opening acts, small paid shows or something. And I've had some really good ones. Like, I've had some ones where it went extremely well. Like, I did this one show in San Antonio. It's like a smaller club, and it's east side San Antonio. So it's like all like a Hispanic and Black club, right? So I walk in and I look at this wall, and there's 40 comedians up on the wall, and they're all black or Hispanic. This, zero white people. Okay. I look around, audience, not that different. So I'm like, this is pretty funny. So I go up there and I open with that, and I'm like, you know, guys, I think I'm gonna fit in well here. All these comedians on the wall, none of them are white. And then, like, everyone laughed at that. And then I kind of, like, had people on my side a little bit.
- [36:19]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:19]
A
And then the material went really well. But then sometimes you have sets where, like, you go up there. And I'm still. I'm still so new that when I. When I mess up, I can't. I can't smoothly transition into something else. Like, you can see that I messed up, right?
- [36:33]
B
Yeah.
- [36:33]
A
Whereas the pros, they, like, if they forget some jokes or they make an error, you can't even tell. You don't even know anything happened. And I had one recently where I was like, here. I did something at the Vulcan, where earlier on in the show, I basically, like. I was like, wait, wait, what goes here? And then the audience is like, oh, God, this guy. You know, you can just see it. Yeah. All right, we got five more minutes, guys. So.
- [36:56]
C
But I still think that's cool. I still think that's cool to. And brave to be up there and, like, pay your dues and figure it out and, like, get the calluses and, like, work around it. Like, that's why I think it's the scariest, hardest thing in the world to do.
- [37:09]
A
It's also so pure. When you say something, it's either funny or it's not. And when you tell a joke, if it's not funny, people just don't laugh. And that feedback is really. It's, like, authentic. And it's real. It's a real. It's like a real exchange. I like that. I like the pureness of that.
- [37:26]
B
Well, that's like Andrew Dice Clay. You know, I've struggled with substance abuse a lot and all this stuff, but, like, Andrew Dice Clay talked about, like, the reason why so many comedians fell into, like, addiction and all this stuff is like, he would. He would perform at, you know, 10 o' clock at night in an arena with 30,000 people chanting his name, screaming, yeah, you're the great. You're the best. And then it's like you're supposed to go lay down and go to bed. 20 minutes later, like, you're four hours later, from all that energy, like, 30,000 people just chanting at you and screaming your name and this. And then to go like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to go home and go to bed. Like, you need something.
- [38:02]
A
Poker is like that, too. Like that. That hand. And I play these giant pots. I think I lost a million dollars that day. We played it until 3, 4, 5 in the morning. And then you get back to the hotel and you just, like, lay down. I'm not gonna be able to sleep right now. I need hours to just compartmentalize this, to accept this, to just get back to my baseline.
- [38:22]
B
And then you start going, you know what? My life is good. You ever fall into that when I've lost too much? You start going, hey, man, look, my life is good. I'm a healthy human being. Like, you just. You get. Man, you suffer through all, especially if you're in a hotel. Yeah, when you're at home, it's a little better when you're in a fucking hotel. Especially in a casino. Like, I used to go out to, like, borgata for a week at a time, and, like, if you lose the first three days in a row, you start to get so in your head and just horrible. And then you're in this hotel and you're like. You're just looking for any sort of, like. And it was like winter time, and there's snow outside, and you're like, I just need something good.
- [38:57]
A
I feel like of anywhere I've gone to play poker, and I've been to a lot of places. The single most depressing is Atlantic City.
- [39:04]
B
It's pretty bad.
- [39:04]
A
I think it's number one most depressing. I'd have to think about that if I could find somewhere, like. But.
- [39:09]
C
But I went to a casino in Alabama. Was it Alabama? On our drive to Alabama, that. The Golden Nugget. That one was pretty depressing.
- [39:17]
A
They have a Golden Nugget in Alabama?
- [39:18]
C
Or was like, on the drive to.
- [39:19]
A
Alabama, from here to, oh, L.A. you.
- [39:24]
B
Used to be a big blackjack girl, right?
- [39:25]
C
Love blackjack.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah, she was. Yeah.
- [39:28]
C
I could sit at a table for hours.
- [39:30]
A
So you could count cards.
- [39:31]
C
No, I. It's like, just, like, all feel for me. I just. And I do. I take. I take losses. Okay. I'm. I don't. I just. I kind of just lock in. I don't know. It's very weird. It's. And I. My strategy always is, the second I have my money back, it's in my bat that I start with in my bag. And I won't open it up. And then as soon as I, like, I'll just sort of keep adding. And then once I'm happy with what I won, then I just start playing aggressively.
- [39:59]
A
Okay, so that way you never have a big loss, basically. Yeah.
- [40:02]
C
Yeah. But the most I ever won in one night was $30,000.
- [40:07]
A
Oh, my God. Wow.
- [40:09]
B
Where was that?
- [40:09]
C
I drank hot chocolate in Vegas.
- [40:11]
A
Oh, you celebrated with some hot chocolate.
- [40:13]
C
That's right. I was drinking hot chocolate all night at the table. With whipped cream. Cause I don't drink.
- [40:18]
B
Yeah, I gotcha.
- [40:20]
A
It's like you're gambling. You're playing blackjack for tens of thousands of dollars, and you're like. And on the side, we have some hot cocoa. Yeah, it's like, opposite of this story.
- [40:31]
B
What? So how does bombing in, in, like, stand up compare to, like, losing in poker? Is it. Do you. Does it feel similar?
- [40:38]
A
Oh, it's so much worse. It's so much worse.
- [40:40]
B
Stand up is worse.
- [40:41]
A
Oh, it's so much worse. I mean, so in poker, you just know that you're gonna lose a lot of. And you also know that it doesn't mean you made a mistake, because you can play a hand perfectly and lose. But if you bomb in stand up, then it means you. You made a mistake somewhere, you wrote a bad joke, you delivered it poorly, you messed it. Whatever you did, you, like, made some kind of mistake. And it's like a. More of a reflection on you because you're writing and telling the joke. Whereas poker, it's a reflection on the cards. It feels personal.
- [41:13]
C
Yeah.
- [41:14]
A
When you're. When you're doing stand up. And by the way, like, I don't want to come across like I'm some expert standup guy, you know, not.
- [41:19]
B
I mean, you've done it more than 99% of people in the world, you know, just. Just getting up there, like, most people are like, I. Yeah, it just.
- [41:26]
A
It's just kind of funny. All right, and here we have one of the best poker players in the world, and let him talk about stand up that he sucks at.
- [41:31]
C
Yeah, well, no, I wouldn't say you suck. Do you ever have to pivot in the middle of a set of, like, reading the audience and being. And like, you're already like, all right, I know. I can see what they're responding to. And that joke's not going to land. So you kind of.
- [41:46]
A
I'm still too new. Like, I only have 15 or 20 minutes of material. Right. So when I go in, I kind of just have, like, a set list Like, I'm gonna do these jokes, I'm gonna do these jokes. I'm gonna do these jokes. I think as you get better, you start to play into like this type of joke or that, like when you have a lot of material you can tap into.
- [42:03]
C
Right.
- [42:04]
A
But I think also. So there's two kind of veins of stand up. There's. You either have like set material or you're gonna do stuff based off the crowd and crowd work, as they call it. Right. So crowd work is, generally speaking, something that I think you get more comfortable with over time and you start to see reactions. One thing that's funny is I have noticed that, you know, like polling, like presidential polling or political polling, it kind of converges pretty quickly to be fairly accurate. Right. You know, maybe not the most accurate, but, you know, pretty accurate. So it's sort of similar with audiences where when you say something, then there's a response that happens, like kind of quickly, like this, this bit I've been doing lately. So I briefly dated a porn star. And I open with that. And when I say that, Great opener. It's a great opener. It's also a true story. But when I open with that, there's always just like some guy. It's like, yeah, and like, I've been responding with like, oh, nice. You like that? Nice to meet a fellow cuckoo.
- [43:05]
B
Yeah. He instantly opens his phone and follows you on YouTube. He's like, I approve of this guy. Yeah.
- [43:11]
A
And then like, people will laugh at that. I'm like, all right, now I'll leave you alone so you can sit there and watch. I know you like that.
- [43:15]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:16]
A
And that goes well every time. So I can just say, I date a porn star and wait, and then I know I'm going to get the. Yeah, and then I can do that bit. And if you don't, you just skip it. But like, yeah, you sort of have these, like, back pocket things that you start to see these trends where that happens over and over. And like, another thing that happened when I went on Kill Tony, I did some jokes about Californians and there's this one line where I'm like, you know, I don't know why Californians are moving here anyway. Over the last few years, the California real estate market's been on fire and people laugh. But what happens is it's like a slow laugh. Like some laugh, then more laugh, then more laugh.
- [43:50]
B
That.
- [43:50]
A
And, you know, I'm like, oh, that's a slow burn. So you start to see these things happen and then you can kind of play off of them through experience. And, like, all of the comedians that are really good, they're obviously brilliant writers, and they can deliver things extremely well. But then they start to see the way that the audience responds to things, and they can play off of it. And then there are these moments that seem totally made up to you. The person that's never seen it.
- [44:14]
B
Right.
- [44:14]
A
But to them, they've done this to a ton of audiences, and they know what people are gonna kind of respond like, yeah, totally.
- [44:20]
B
Yeah. So what is the drive home, like, from Kill Tony after you crush compared to, like, the second time? I want to know, like, the first time, when you're driving home, are you like, I'm a comedian. Like, I got this the first time.
- [44:33]
A
Felt like that.
- [44:34]
B
Yeah.
- [44:36]
A
Was like, man, it was crazy. It was, you know, people coming up to you at the show being like, oh, you're so funny.
- [44:40]
C
Oh, what a high.
- [44:41]
A
Oh, it was. It was. Honestly, it's Clearly a top 10 moment in my life, you know, like, probably in, like, the fifth, sixth range of all the moments in my life.
- [44:50]
B
And you've had a lot of good ones.
- [44:51]
A
I've had good ones. Like getting married, having kids, porn star, shout out to my wife. No, but seriously, like, the good moments in life, I mean, it was. It was amazing. Winning a bracelet, those are all moments.
- [45:04]
B
That are with your best friend. Right? Wasn't he?
- [45:06]
C
Yeah.
- [45:06]
B
Yeah. I mean, that's. So there's an event at the World Series of Poker where it's like a tag team and you could play with whoever you want. And he played, like, with his best friend, and they won. How cool that's gotta be. I mean, just.
- [45:17]
A
Yeah, it was crazy. It was like the first time they did that event, actually. Right. So you can tag in and out at any point in that tournament. So day one, I'm with my buddy, and he's like, dude, we're going to win this. I'm like, all right, all right, let's just. It's day one, let's take it easy. So day two, we agree that he'll play the morning shift and I'll do the evening shift. So he plays six hours, and then I play six hours. And so he plays six hours of poker. He builds up a nice stack of chips. I come in, he tags me in firsthand. I'm in there, I run a giant bluff on some other guy at the table. I tag in, I run all of our chips at this guy. My friend is just sitting here watching, like, his six hours of work this morning. Just Go into the pot, the guy folds, I table the bluff and I go to high five my friend and he's like, what the hell, dude? I just worked for six hours immediately, what is this? But then it was. So we made the final table and I actually had to play another tournament while that was going on. So I was like playing two different tournaments at once. And when we won, I was playing the other tournament and the camera guy came over and said, oh, hey, do you want your winner's photo? Like, oh, we won. That's crazy. Didn't even know.
- [46:22]
C
Wow.
- [46:22]
A
Yeah.
- [46:23]
B
So when, when you became, like, when you were driving to become the best at poker, how much of it was like a love for poker compared to, like, I think I can just make money doing this or be the best or.
- [46:35]
A
Well, when I, when you start at anything. So I think you have to have like a healthy amount of realism for where you are and you can have goals to improve and get better and do your best, but you don't want to set, like, set yourself up for failure by hoping to one day be something that you're not. Right. So with poker, I just wanted to make sure I was a winning player. Then you get there, okay, now I want to move up in stakes. Then you get there, okay, Now I wanted to, you just kind of put like shorter. I've seen something about this, actually, where you want to try to avoid really long term goals and you want to do way more short to midterm because they're a lot more actionable and then you can actually achieve them and then you're not just sort of looking at them like, oh, this is impossible to get to this place.
- [47:13]
C
Yes.
- [47:13]
A
The next step isn't impossible. You take it one step at a time. Right. So I kind of always had one step at a time. And man, like, when I started poker, I had nothing. I had, you know, my dad's beat up minivan. That was it.
- [47:23]
C
Yeah.
- [47:23]
A
I didn't, I didn't think like one day I was going to be some high stakes poker player. It just kind of happened by always trying to be good at it, you.
- [47:31]
B
Know, Was it for the love of the game or was it because you were like, I can just make money doing this, like, or did you? Because there's some people who just like love poker and then there's other people who are like, I do this to make money.
- [47:41]
A
I think it's kind of both. I mean, I'm less, I'm less money driven than a lot of people. You know, I'm a Pretty successful guy. But I like the journeys. Like, I like going on a new journey.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:51]
A
And that's what really, I had the most fun with. Like, I'm trying to make it. I'm trying to beat these guys. Like, they think they could beat me, I'm trying to beat them. The money is sort of like a byproduct of that.
- [47:59]
C
Yeah.
- [48:00]
A
But it's obviously some degree both. Right. Because if there was no money, then you can't really go on that journey. So there's like, a healthy balance, I think.
- [48:07]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's. And I think that makes sense, you know, those small attainable goals and having it just be about that, it just makes it more fun. And then you're just surprised at where you're headed. You know what I mean? And I. To me, that I would always rather be, like, just shown where life is going to take me than, like, know where it is.
- [48:27]
A
Right. You know what I mean?
- [48:28]
C
Like, I. I look back at my life and it would never have imagined that I would be exactly where I am right now, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. And I like that I didn't know where I was headed, so I liked not knowing where I'm headed.
- [48:41]
A
It has to be kind of interesting for you guys, too, because, like, you guys rose up so fast, so young. Right? Like, so. So it's funny, my wife and I, we'd never seen the Sopranos until, like, a few years ago. And I'm like, we should watch this. Like, it's a good show. And then we watched, like, the whole thing in, like, a few months or whatever, just, like, grinding it out. But for you guys at the time, like, you were so young. I mean, to kind of get thrown into the spotlight like that, I feel like some. Like, for people in that situation, it's got to then be kind of tough to navigate where you go from there. Right. Like, figuring out sort of the next steps in your life. Like, did you guys feel that?
- [49:14]
C
I have had to. I've gone through my own journey of not associating any of my value with my career. I think that I had to do some undoing and some unlearning and some sort of disassociating and realize, like, yes. Because at 16 years old, when, like, your first big job is, like, the number one show in the world, and then it does, and it's, like, never quite that or even if, like, you know, it's just. It can be confusing and overwhelming. And so, yes, I think I've had purposeful and sometimes not by choice, you know, hiatuses, which have just allowed me to sort of get to know who I am without that, which was important.
- [49:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, I know. I never associated my.
- [50:02]
C
The way he hands.
- [50:03]
B
He.
- [50:04]
C
We are so opposite. And. And. And I think what brings us together, you know, is the experience we had and the love and respect we have for each other, but also, like, there's so many things about him that I want to be more like and vice versa. So we've really, you know, like, latched onto each other in life in that way, because just the way he handles things and his perspective is just. I've learned so much of just not care. Of caring so much less about things than I was.
- [50:35]
A
It's kind of funny that you guys got hired to play a family and then you kind of became a family.
- [50:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
- [50:40]
C
Yeah. He's Uncle Rob to my kids. It's the best.
- [50:42]
B
And the other, like, something I talk about all the time is like, I have two sisters, and there's 30 people who know they're my sisters, and maybe five of them will be like, hey, how's your sister? Where with her? It's like, millions of people associate her as my sister, and they're constantly like, how's your sister? Where's your sister? Oh, you and your sister. You and your sister. So, like, after 30 years, like, in my head, it's just like, yeah, well, that's my sister. Like, it really is, like, that's how it feels like. I feel like she is part of my family. For sure.
- [51:09]
A
I think it worked out cool, too, because if you guys weren't close like that, it would be a lot more annoying and difficult because people will always associate you together, kind of.
- [51:17]
C
Definitely. And our characters didn't really get along, you know, there was. There was such contention. And so it made it even more fun to play that because it was not that at all, you know?
- [51:28]
B
Yeah. And she's taught me, like, so much. But, like, one of the. The things that, like, I always think about, that describes me and her very well, but also that, like, she made me look at things differently is we have a friend, our friend Cassm. And I was describing when I met him, and I was like, oh, yeah. I remember meeting him and being like, I don't think I like this guy. And she was like, wait, when you meet people, you think if you like them or not. She's like, I'm just hoping they like me. And I was like, whoa. Like, I.
- [51:55]
C
Like, not only we enter into everything, so Differently?
- [51:58]
B
Yeah. Like, not only is that such the opposite from how I think, but also it's like, that's how you live your life. Like, you meet people hoping that they like you.
- [52:05]
C
And that's where I'm like, oh my God. I want to be more like Rob.
- [52:08]
A
I think what Rob is like, it's a lot more common.
- [52:10]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [52:12]
A
When you meet people, you get a, you get like kind of a read on them a little bit. Right. Like you meet someone, you sort of know like what they're all about or not. And one of the things I've always tried to do is be around people that I feel like, have a symbiotic relationship where it's positive for both, avoid one way friendships. But when you meet people, there are things that they say or do where you're like this person. You never felt like that about people?
- [52:38]
C
No, I grew up insta. No, I was such a people pleaser and so deeply insecure and deeply afraid of not being loved or liked. So, yes, I would mend and bend myself to whatever needed to be so that this other person felt comfortable and that they liked me. And then I would get into a loop of feeling like I was manipulative and I'm. Am I a narcissist? Like, am I bad? Like, so this has been like a journey for me. But Rob has really helped me with that in finding my worth and who I am and what I bring to a room and feeling more confident in that. And I think because of that, now I look at my life and I just have the most, like, rich, wonderful friendships and relationships that are incredible, that I don't necessarily still walk into a room. Like, I don't know if I like you. I like everybody. Like, I really genuinely feel like when I meet people, I can immediately find the good in them or the innocence in them. But he's helped me instill more confidence in myself.
- [53:48]
A
Okay, that's good. Maybe this is also where poker does that to you. Right? Because like in poker, you're always trying to, you know, size people up immediately. Like, what kind of player is this? What kind of person, you know, makes some reads.
- [53:58]
C
Terrible poker player, terrible. I'd be a terrible one one day.
- [54:02]
B
What's really, what's really interesting is like the way that, how we've grown up and the adults we've become and something that happened in our childhood was like, I started auditioning when I was sick. So I was auditioning for six years before I got Soprano. So I would constantly hear, like, he's Too fat. He's too. No, we don't want. He doesn't know how to do. Like, he's not good enough with this. So I just kind of, like, shrugged everything off. But also, my family, if it was like, they didn't like him, my family would be like, those people, like, these losers in this room, like, judging. Like, they would make them the villains. Or with her, when she would come out of an audition, like, her mom, or people in her family would be like, did they like you? Like, did you make them like you? And, like, so there was that where with me, it was always like, if. Like, I understand how she lives her life because of when my friends are like, you know, if. If my friend is dating a woman for three months, he's like, I think this is the. The one. When I meet her, I'm like, I hope she likes me, because we're gonna be around. And I'm like, she lives like that all the time. Like, that has to be so crazy, because when you're going to meet someone where you're like, oh, man, I hope this person, you know, I hope. Like, I hope or, like, you make friends with somebody and they're like, oh.
- [55:05]
C
My house, entire life was a first date.
- [55:07]
B
Yeah. With everyone. It's like, Jesus.
- [55:09]
A
Way too stressful.
- [55:10]
C
It was. It was very stressful. But I also married somebody that's similar to Rob, who's just like, him, Jamie. Fuck him, like, and he's helped me a lot in that way.
- [55:20]
A
It almost feels weird hearing you say the F word.
- [55:23]
C
Me? Oh, I curse all the time.
- [55:25]
A
I just want everyone to love me. Them.
- [55:27]
C
Them.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah.
- [55:28]
A
Yeah.
- [55:29]
B
Well, it's funny because I. Like, we have different segments in this podcast, and one of my favorites, which doesn't get to happen a lot, is like, do you want to say anything mean to anyone? And like, oh, this go.
- [55:38]
A
Those burns have to be epic.
- [55:39]
B
Every six months, she's. She has something for someone, and it. It fills me up.
- [55:45]
A
Oh, my God, I have to see this.
- [55:47]
B
It makes me feel so good when she's like, you know, someone came to my house and they drug all over my carpet or, like, whatever. I'm like, yes, that's usually in that. Yeah, something like that. She.
- [55:59]
A
She can't go, you know, how nice are these carpets?
- [56:02]
C
Oh, well, I. I do. I. I love. I love home things.
- [56:07]
A
Okay.
- [56:07]
B
You know what? Like, one of the things I think that made you really likable in the poker community, too, is, like, a lot of people, when they become, like, millionaires in poker, they kind of Become like, these untouchable or like, they're just. They don't get it. They're on a different plain.
- [56:24]
A
And no, it's still pretty touchable.
- [56:25]
B
Yeah, he's always at the lodge hanging out. But also, you. You did a thing called the bankroll challenge several times, right? Or just once. And then you stopped and went back or something. But, like, you started with a hundred.
- [56:36]
A
Yeah, I did a challenge where I turned a hundred dollars into ten thousand.
- [56:38]
B
Dollars after being very successful and could never look back. And, like, I think a lot of people were like, yeah, well, you don't know what it's like, you know, only having 100 plus. And he was like, all right.
- [56:47]
A
Actually, so I was trying to figure out content ideas, and people were like, okay, is it still possible to start with 100 bucks and make a bankroll? Right. And it's called 10K bankroll. I'm like, yeah, it's possible. Oh, it's not. It's not like, okay, well, who would want to see me do this? I was like, oh, I want to see this. You can't do it. All this stuff. I'm like, all right, so we do all this promotion fire up day one, and I start up, and I realize that I have very few viewers because no one actually wants to sit around and watch someone play, like, penny poker.
- [57:13]
C
Right? Right.
- [57:14]
A
But then I ended up, like, you know, over 60 sessions, I turn $100 into 10,000 to kind of show that you can still do it because people like to complain and blame other stuff. Like, you are.
- [57:24]
B
Sure.
- [57:24]
A
The biggest thing, I think, in so many areas in life is self taking responsibility for yourself and taking responsibility for your own shortcomings. I didn't do well here because of myself, and I can become better. Obviously, you want the middle ground, right? Where you're not just saying fuck you, and you're not saying, like, did they like you? You want to find that middle ground. I think being able to be unbiased about yourself and look at something and try and improve from it as, like a neutral third party, that. That's an extremely important skill to be able to do that.
- [57:57]
C
It's the main thing I try to teach my kids is like, we all fuck up. It's we're human.
- [58:03]
A
Or like, I hope you don't use that language around those children.
- [58:06]
C
Not all the time sometimes. Like, you know, but I'm just like, don't beat yourself up. Like, you're life is for learning. You're never gonna get it. All right? And I also tried to tell Them, like, sometimes the best feeling in the world to me is taking responsibility. Like when I say, when I'm honest, when I apologize, whether it's to myself or somebody else. Like, I actually like that rush feeling in my body more than anything else because it's just, it's human, it's real, it's honest, it's a connection. It is, yeah. Yeah, I love that.
- [58:38]
A
Me too.
- [58:39]
B
Something I wanted to ask you is why do you think specifically with poker, it's a thing where so many, especially of like the top pros and whatever, retire and then so shortly come right back?
- [58:51]
A
Well, there's a few things that happen with that. So the first is that a lot of poker players retire and then they lose money and then they're like, oh, well, if I want to have a good life or, you know, a reasonable life, I need to play, to work. So that's the first thing. The second thing is like, so my, so my personal journey with this was kind of weird. Like I retired and then I ended up in a. In a heads up match with another very well known player named Daniel Negrano. And so I came back for that. And in my mind, and maybe I was crazy, I thought I was done and I moved to Texas. I hung up the gloves, I'm out, and then I'm getting a coffee here in Austin and I just look over and there's just this building that says shuffle. Like, shuffle. That sounds kind of weird. And I go over there, I walk in the front door and like, oh, Doug pokes here. Is this a poker room? What's going on? People are playing poker. There's chips, there's cards. And I had no idea that there even was poker in Texas. So when I saw that, I'm like, oh, I'd like to open a poker club, you know, or buy into a poker club. And then I ended up kind of back in, into poker. So I don't know. My, my story is gonna be a little bit weird and different than other people, but. And then I think there's a third. There's a third sort of group which are like, when you're in poker, you feel like you're a part of something. You feel like there's a story that's being developed. You have these goals, and when you leave poker, then you start to feel like you're a little bit more rudderless, like, where's the ship going? And I feel like there's a connection you build with it that as you get older, you look back fondly on those memories. And you kind of want to take a trip down memory lane, or you want to feel like you're still a part of that because it was a core part of your identity for a long time. If it's what you're doing when you're coming up. And by the way, I thought what you said was really smart with, like, trying to differentiate between, like, who you are as a person and who you are as a career, because I've seen that in, you know, certainly in poker, where players will play super high stakes, they'll be really successful, and then they might lose a bunch. They have to move down, they start to doubt themselves. And they don't just doubt their ability in poker or their career, but they doubt who they are personally. And you just need to have a nice, healthy separation, which can be hard, where you're like, okay, regardless of how this is going, I am me, and I'm proud of who I am, and I'm proud of how I conduct myself, and I'm gonna do my best. And it has nothing to do with how I might be doing financially or how well known I am or how this is going or whatever it is. You have to have a nice, clear delineation between those two things for your own sanity, I think.
- [61:14]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [61:15]
B
Yeah. I guess it's true for life, too, because, like, regular jobs. Because my. I remember when my grandfather was, like, the porter in a building. I remember. I don't know how old he was when he retired. Like, let's say 70. And then, like, the first six months, he was like, hey. Because we lived in the same building, so he'd be hanging out outside on the corner all day, hanging. And then they stopped seeing him around the corner. And I'm like, where'd he go? And he's like, I go hang around the job, like. And I'm like, you do what? He's like, yeah, you know, I go see maybe if they need me for anything or that. And it's like, wow, he was done. He couldn't wait to retire. And then six months later, he's like, you know, I. I try and go back and say, like, hey, whenever you guys are on vacation, like, if you need a guy, like, you know, he. Yeah, he wanted to feel purpose.
- [61:52]
C
We all need purpose.
- [61:53]
A
Yeah. Great. Great term.
- [61:54]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. And, you know, sometimes it's your job. Like, for my dad, it's. It's. He's in his mid-70s, and we're all back. He runs a successful company, and we're super proud of him. But I'm like, dad, like, when are we gonna retire? And you just kind of don't have to grind. And he's like, this is what makes me happy every day to wake up and do this. So everyone's purpose is different. Sometimes it might just be hanging out.
- [62:22]
A
I debate that with my parents sometimes, or at least my mom, my stepdad, where my stepdad just retired, and my mom's always like, oh, retirement soon. And I just think to myself, like, I don't want to retire. I want to do things I like, and then just do that all the way through. Always have my passions that I'm working on that I'm trying to improve at, or I enjoy doing. But then I also can understand where. If you work a conventional job where, you know, someone's your boss and you're clocking in and you don't love what you do, and you've been doing that for your entire adult life, which, by the way, is sad. Like, it's sad that. That you have to go through doing that, but then you get to a point where you don't have to do it anymore. I guess I can understand. You know, let's. Let's just call it a day and move on to something else where we can just, you know, chill out or whatever it might be.
- [63:05]
C
Yeah, well, listen, I had a therapist once say, like, not everybody's purpose is their job. Sometimes a job is just, you know, a means to a life and. And supporting your life and. And survival, and you have to find another thing that, you know, feels purposeful for you, whether it's, you know, coaching your kids, Little league team, or, you know, community service, whatever it is. But I also think purpose, but also being of service. Like, I think you can. The way you even did it with poker, you know, And I think sometimes for me, I can. Can think about what I do as an actress of being, like, in service and sort of my job of, you know, trying to give back to people and not have it feel like it's so superficial or just for me, you.
- [63:52]
A
Know, I think entertaining people is giving back.
- [63:54]
C
It is.
- [63:55]
A
Yeah.
- [63:55]
C
For sure.
- [63:56]
A
You're making people enjoy something else away from their life. You know, Like, I think that's.
- [64:01]
C
That's value and teaching them about life.
- [64:03]
A
Yeah.
- [64:03]
C
And relationships and people. Yeah.
- [64:06]
B
I also think, like, when I remember being a kid and it was like, oh, being famous is this thing that, like, you can't attain. And then I remember, like, growing up and with, like, American Idol and, like, all these shows and, like, people now like, famous people just being on YouTube and so relatable and everything that now it's kind of like everybody thinks they could. Like, there's so many people who just have an Instagram, like, hoping that one of their things, like, takes off and become famous. But, like, I remember being young and being like. Like, being famous wasn't the thing. Kids even thought, like, yeah, it feels like, oh, if I'm gonna play sports, and then I would be famous. But that was just something that comes with it. We're, like, now with, like, the Kardashians and all these people. Like, I. I've seen little kids who are like, I'm gonna be famous. Like, that's just, like, their thing.
- [64:46]
C
Yeah. And we also grew up on a show where the fame was, like, everyone. It was, like, the last thing anyone wanted on that show. It was, like, what you had to deal with because you were on this successful show. Like, nobody's goal was fame.
- [65:00]
A
That's really interesting. So, like, sometimes people ask me, like, what it's like being well known in poker, but it's really easy because in a poker room, if I walk in, everyone knows who I am. But then if I'm just on the street, if I go to Starbucks, if I go to. I'm. I'm nobody. No one's ever seen me. Right. Because my entire audience is poker players. And so, like, you know, once in a while, I get recognized somewhere. But for you guys, like, during the peak, it had to be, like, complete madness, right?
- [65:23]
B
It was a lot. If we want to know what the peak was like, we could just go to Jersey right now. It's like.
- [65:27]
C
Or even New York.
- [65:28]
B
It's like, we couldn't walk down the street today. Like, in. People are like, I was watching you last night. You're like, last night, every night, people, they're the best. The people in Jersey are just like, yeah, we watch Sopranos, and they'll tell you how all other TV sucks. Yeah, they're like, everything else sucks. It was the best show ever because, you know, like, I don't know, in my head, like, growing up in New York city and Jersey's 30 minutes away, I didn't think of it as, like, such a different thing, but all these people in Jersey are like, no, no nothing. There's no shows from Jersey. Like, and this was the biggest show.
- [65:55]
A
And they loved, like, captured, like, that area so well, I feel like, represented well.
- [65:59]
C
There was. It was also. There was just such creative freedom with that show where, you know, you were. It was an honest depiction Of. Of this group of people, and you weren't afraid of offending anyone or. There was no parameters. You know what I mean? There was. It was. It was just a lot of, you know, openness to be completely creative and authentic.
- [66:20]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And that comes through in the. In the show.
- [66:23]
C
Yeah.
- [66:23]
B
When. So I want to talk about how you finally got in shape.
- [66:26]
A
Like.
- [66:27]
B
Like, how. How was. How was.
- [66:28]
A
Hell of a pivot.
- [66:30]
B
I'm like, I gotta get. I want to know because I want about, like. Because we were talking about, like, you know, life, and it needs a purpose in this. And I feel like, because I was abusing my body for so long and so bad.
- [66:42]
A
Yeah.
- [66:42]
B
That, you know, ever since. Around 30, I started taking care of my body and working out and yoga and meditation and all this stuff, and it's like, now, on days where I'm not doing anything, it's almost like enough of a purpose for me to just be like. Because, like, I used to look in the mirror and hate the person I saw because of all the stuff I was doing to myself. So, like.
- [67:01]
A
Yeah.
- [67:01]
B
I would wake up in the morning feeling so bad and going through withdrawals or needing pills, or if I was drinking for three days, I'd be throwing up and, like, all this stuff that, like, when you look in the mirror, you go, that guy. Like, what are you gonna do to us tomorrow? This. Where. Now it's like, I take such good care of myself that, like, there's this new guy in the mirror where you're like, hey, thanks, man. Like, you know, it's like, I really. Like, I'm not scared of, like, what you're gonna do to us tomorrow. It's like you're. You've been taking care of us for fucking 10 years. And it's. And it's again, like, not that it's my sole purpose, but, like, it feels on days where I might not have a purpose, that it's enough of a purpose to be, like. But it's still kind of new. Maybe. I don't know.
- [67:38]
A
Yeah. I mean, so there's. There's a balance with it. So just, like, some backstory on me. So. I used to be very overweight. I was like, 250 or something. On my old videos, some of them like, oh, man. I was. I was. I was an absolute unit in some of those.
- [67:49]
B
For sure. Yeah. But you never shied away from the tank tops, man.
- [67:53]
A
It's like, I like, Doug, you're doing it wrong. You got in shape and then started. Started wearing sleeves.
- [67:57]
C
Yeah, for sure.
- [67:59]
A
Anyway, So I just kind of reached this point where I was just done with it. I was just too overweight for too long. And I remember I was like, 249.7. And I saw, like, obese is 250. And I'm like, you know what? I'm just not doing this. I'm going to go through a transformation, right? So I really just focused on calories and walking and working and lifting weights. But it's really, like, the big thing is just calories. It really is. I mean, if you count your. Look, like, everyone debates health stuff. Find what works for you. But in my experience, if you count your calories and your BMR is whatever number, you can look it up online, add in a couple hundred calories for whatever you do during the day, and you eat that number, you're gonna lose weight. Is that easy? And then if you do more protein, you'll have more muscle and stuff. That's fine. That's good. But if you just add that number, you'll get there. It's just boring. It really is just boring. It's extremely boring. It's hard to eat out because you can't track calories. Well, it's hard, it's boring, and it's tedious. And, you know, if you have. The real problem is, like, if you have one day where, like, you know what? Today's off, and you eat 6,000 calories, you can do, you know, so much damage to yourself so quickly, and then it takes you weeks to work that off or whatever. But it's about the consistency, you know, that's really about. It's funny today, actually, right before I came here, I got my allergy shot, and this was, like, one of the nicest things that's ever happened to me. So I go in the back to get a shot, and there's two ladies back there. There's usually one, and there's an older lady, and there's like a younger lady that's clearly, like, learning how to do this. And she's like, okay, give me your right arm. I give me my right arm. She's like, okay, you see this? So when there's this much muscle, you have to go from the side. And I'm like, that's so nice. Thank you so much.
- [69:32]
B
You're like, you want to do the other arm?
- [69:33]
A
I need more triceps.
- [69:35]
B
Lately, you're like my grandpa hanging around at work. You're just hanging around the doctor's office, waiting for her to come outside and throw you a compliment.
- [69:42]
C
That's awesome.
- [69:43]
A
And then they didn't think it was as funny, but I really did.
- [69:46]
B
Yeah.
- [69:48]
A
The intern's like, this guy.
- [69:49]
B
I remember how bizarre it was. Like, I. Like, even when I was 22, like, in. If. If you would look at me from how, you know, I came from, like, being raised in, like, income housing and had no money and all this stuff. So, like, from the outside, you'd be like, oh, my God, this guy's on top of the world. But I never realized. No one. I didn't realize until I got healthy, no one ever asked me for advice because I was such a mess. Even though it, like, could appear that I was doing great, it was like, we don't want to get advice from him because I did. Yeah, well, you. You just picked up. You wanted something that my. All my New York scumbag friends already had, you know, which is, like, off. Like, tell anyone to off.
- [70:25]
C
You still had something.
- [70:27]
B
Right.
- [70:27]
A
But, like, Yankees hat's great for this.
- [70:28]
C
Yeah.
- [70:29]
B
Right. All of my friends were, you know, kids who grew up in New York City that they. They did. Like, And I realized when I got sober and started working out, eating clean, and, like, people would randomly, like, because they knew what I looked like on Sopranos or whatever, and come up to me and be like, you know, like, what did you do? And, like, really taking in my advice, and it freaked me out. Like, I'd be like. Because, like, even at the gym, before I started going to the gym, I'd be like, oh, those fucking healthy people. Like, those. Now I go to the gym, I just realized it's all a bunch of fat people, like, who just want to work out so they can eat more. Like, it's really what I do in the gym. It's like, if I burn 800 calories in the gym, I can go eat 600 calories more today and not fudgeing, worry about it.
- [71:06]
A
Exactly.
- [71:06]
B
It's the best.
- [71:07]
A
Yeah. And I mean, so I'm not a big food guy, you know, I know you said about both of you guys actually being sober, and I always am, like, swinging. Like, I. I'll do, like, a month or two of sobriety, and then. And then I'll just struggle to. Like, I just feel like it's like I'm bored, you know? Like, I really like drinking with my friends or going out or whatever. And then I'll do, like, a month or two of drinking, and then while I'm drinking, I'm always gaining weight, like, every single time, so I have to balance it where, like, I'll Go through, stretch, like, okay, I can drink for a little while here, but then if I don't, I know I'll end up like before. So I'm like, it's like a weight based thing. Yeah, totally balance that. And then I think like, man, if I didn't drink, I'd just be like, jacked. But then I'm like, well, but then I wouldn't have these experiences I want. And the trade offs are really difficult to try and balance and like find what works for you, you know?
- [71:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, a lot of people who went through addiction try and like make the substance the villain. Where for me it's like, no, I just can't do that. It doesn't mean that drinking is bad and, and, or that drugs are bad. It's like, if I, if I could take Percocets one day a month and, and it's like, yeah, sure, maybe I'll do it. But it's like, I can't, I can't do that.
- [72:10]
A
You know, there's a psychological thing with that too, where one is way harder than zero. One's way harder than zero. Because if you have a clear, a clear gate, once you open the gate and you have one now, there's like a much smaller gate here, you know, and it's like, oh, I can open that gate. And then before you know it, you're, you know, you're going places with gates, I guess. Yeah, it's like easy to get.
- [72:29]
C
You're just in an open field and you're lost.
- [72:31]
B
Yeah, no, 100. Because like, I, I have friends who used to say to me, like, like when I would drink 60 drinks in front of them, and they'd be like, how do you drink that amount? And I would be like, how do you drink that amount? Like you have two drinks and go home. Yeah, I, I could, I have never in my life had two or three drinks and been like, yeah, that's it for tonight. Like, I don't have that amount.
- [72:49]
C
I used to have to sneak out of places so he wouldn't yell at me for going home early.
- [72:53]
B
Yeah, we could get somewhere at 10pm and at 4am she'd be like, all right, I think I'm gonna go. I'd be like, are you nuts? Like, we're just getting going. It's so late. Yeah, I know. I never wanted. Once I would start drinking the party I never wanted. And that's the thing. It's like I did coke, you know, every night for years, but I was never addicted to Coke. I just didn't want things to stop. And it was like, if at 8, if at 8am you're starting to get like this, like, I did some coke and I'd be like, oh, I just bought another 10 hours to party. Like. But it was like, I never liked cocaine. Like, I know the things I was addicted to and yeah, and I was just an addict in general, but like, like being addicted to that substance. It's like I never saw a coke and was like, you know where with like, painkillers, I would like, oof.
- [73:35]
A
I know you're talking about with like, not wanting it to end, like, especially. So, like, the other day I was in Florida and I was with one of my best friends. He was the best man at my wedding, a great dude. And, you know, I rarely get to see him. He's in Florida. And like, you know, we both have kids now and we're hanging out and like, you know, we're having a couple drinks and I'm just like, I don't want this to end because I know, like, in like 30 minutes I have to leave and I'm not going to see him again for months or a year or whatever. You know, you could talk online, but it's like always different to see people in person. And that feeling of like, I just want this to keep going on. Like, I know what you're talking about, but that's really tough.
- [74:07]
C
It is.
- [74:08]
B
Yeah. What's. Before we go, we've been here for a long time.
- [74:11]
C
I know. This is our longest one ever.
- [74:13]
B
Yeah.
- [74:13]
C
Awesome. No, sorry. We've loved it.
- [74:16]
B
I wanted. Because people, People love hearing about prop bets. So I just want to know, like, what's the craziest prop ed you've ever heard of? Or what's the craziest prop bet? Or both, like, that you've been involved in.
- [74:27]
A
So I've done two different body fat loss bets and I've lost both of them now, and they were both significant bets where I lost, like $200,000 betting on cutting my body fat in half. But both times I lost a lot of fat. So I got, like, pretty good shape and then I paid for it. So, you know, someone said this to me, like, so that guy you're betting against, he's like a really expensive personal trainer.
- [74:51]
C
That's right.
- [74:51]
A
That doesn't do any training.
- [74:52]
C
That's right. You didn't lose.
- [74:54]
A
But, you know, you're making your life better, so.
- [74:56]
C
Yeah.
- [74:56]
A
Although I probably won't do any more of those bets. Other prop bets. Let me Think about that.
- [75:00]
B
Well, while you think about it, I'll say one. Just so people have. So there's this guy, Bill Perkins, who's famous for just having a lot of money in the poker world and being a nice guy and all this stuff. And he bet these two brothers who. I'm going to make up numbers, let's say one was 300 pounds and the other one was 150 pounds. That in a year, again, I'm making up times, I don't know, it could have been nine months or whatever, that they couldn't be the exact same weight. And he bet them like, a ton of money. But, like. So, like, you put up 10 grand, I put up a hundred. So, like, he gave them odds, like, what.
- [75:30]
C
What if the bigger one, like, just couldn't lose weight and then the other one just had to gain all the weight?
- [75:35]
B
That's the best. That's. That's the bet. So that. That's what they. So they. And they. They put their Journey, I think, on YouTube. I think I remember watching it back in the day of, like, them getting to the way. And they did it.
- [75:43]
A
They did it. Yeah, yeah.
- [75:44]
B
And it was all. And it was. It was. That was one of the craziest.
- [75:47]
A
I know the story. I know the story.
- [75:48]
B
Okay.
- [75:49]
A
All right. So this happened, I'm gonna say, about 13 or 14 years ago, and I was actually in Florida, in Orlando, and I was visiting a friend, and there were like a household of poker players, right? They all play poker, they all play high stakes. And I went out with one of them to, like, some bars in Orlando or whatever. We're drinking, we're hanging out, we're talking about life, poker, whatever. We're out until like 2 or 3 in the morning. I get back, I pass out. I wake up at like 7 or 8 in the morning. I go downstairs, he's on the computer, and he's arguing with someone on like, Skype or something that he could run 70 miles in the next 24 hours. Okay, so just, just so we understand, this guy, at most slept four hours, Four and a half hours, like, tops. Okay. And. And we were doing shots. It was.
- [76:32]
C
He was possibly still drunk.
- [76:33]
A
He. I mean, he's not blowing 00. So he's arguing about it with this guy. And then they eventually settle on. He will lay three to one. All right? Now, he was in very good shape. So he's an athletic guy, but it's 70 miles in 24 hours, and he has to run. He can't walk and he has to run the Whole time.
- [76:50]
B
That's insane.
- [76:51]
A
It's insane. So he bets like 300k, his 300k to win 100k. And then I'm in the room with another poker player that lives there. He's like, dude, you can't do it. Like, I'll bet you this. I'll bet you this. And then they kept, they keep escalating. Like, I'll bet you 100k more. I'll bet you 200k more. And it just goes up and up and up. And before you know it, it's like, it's. The guy's name is Ash. Is Ash. He went by Ash, man. So it's Ash's 900k to win 300k from the other guys. So at the time, I'm like a small stakes poker player. This is all insane. I'm like, you know, I'm talking to some friends. Should I bet on this? And then I have some friends that are kind of athletic. Like, dude, you can't run 70 miles in one day. Like, you should obviously bet against this. You get 3 to 1. Okay, so I bet 5k, which was a huge amount for me at the time. And I'll never forget we went to the gym and he's about to start running and he treadmilled the track, all of it. And the guy. And Ash looks at me and goes, doug, don't do this, man. You can still take your money back. Like, I'm going to run 70 miles. And I was like, ash, I have to do this.
- [77:50]
B
So is he in good shape? Like, what is this guy?
- [77:53]
A
Okay, okay, great shape. He's, I think he was on like a collegiate wrestling team or something. Like, great, great, great shape. Okay, so he starts running. Whatever. The other guy, he's like in the gym watching or whatever. And about, about like a third of the way in. Ash can't run anymore and he's kind of falling behind pace. She comes back to the house and like he's like exhausted. And then his family hears about this. They show up, they're yelling with us like, you guys are gonna kill him. Like, how could you do this to your friend? And the guy, he did it to himself. And they're arguing and then Ash on the couch trying to sleep with like his head over his head. This was like, this was insane, right? So I'm watching this all go down. Ash takes like a 30 minute nap, goes back to the gym, and then this guy just locks in and just runs for like the rest. He just locks in and just runs and runs and Runs. And the next thing I know, I was actually getting kind of sick. And I went to bed at 8, 9, 10, whatever. I wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning to the guy that bet against him. His name was Haseeb. And he comes and he's like, I just can't watch him anymore. He just keeps running. He just keeps running and he keeps running and he keeps. And the feet, the pounding on the treadmill. The pounding. He keeps running and running. And so I go down to the gym, you know, a little bit after, and go see. And like, he. He ran all 70 miles, the whole 70 miles in 24 hours. It was insane.
- [79:04]
C
What happened to him after?
- [79:06]
A
It was his family yelled at us and took him home.
- [79:08]
C
Oh, my God.
- [79:09]
A
How dare you guys.
- [79:10]
C
We never heard from him again.
- [79:12]
A
I mean, kind of.
- [79:14]
B
Wow.
- [79:15]
C
Wow. I mean, commitment.
- [79:17]
A
He made it.
- [79:17]
C
He made it.
- [79:18]
B
That's crazy. There's like an old. You know, there's a video about it on YouTube and stuff, but some guy, bet. I forget again, the amount of $100,000, whatever, to another man that he wouldn't get breast implants.
- [79:29]
A
Oh, I heard about this one, too.
- [79:31]
B
And he had to leave him in for, like, a certain amount of. Can you guys look that up and see if there's a thing on there? Like, man makes breast implants. And he got them and he left them in just to get however much money. But he was. Again, See, this is. The thing is, like, now Vegas is. Maybe it's not, but, like, the way that I feel. Like, you look at Vegas like poker players. This is like, they're kind of doing all right. Where. When I remember going to Vegas when I was really young, and, like, a lot of those people weren't doing very well. Like, you're like, oh, man, he kept.
- [80:00]
C
Them in for a year for a hundred grand.
- [80:04]
A
You know, honestly, not 38C. Not worth a hundred grand.
- [80:08]
C
No.
- [80:09]
B
Again, no.
- [80:10]
C
Look at him in a sports bra. That's terrible.
- [80:13]
B
Not worth a hundred grand unless you owe someone 50 grand who's gonna break your kneecap.
- [80:17]
C
The guy that bet him was a cosmetic surgeon. So he did it himself. He performed the surgery.
- [80:22]
B
My point is, I think, kind of weird. I think there were people who owed people money to where they were going to die if they didn't pay them. I'm not saying that that's. This guy. I don't know his story, whatever, but there were a lot of people like that back in the day, where it's like, yeah, you owe people 30 grand, and if you don't get it. Like it's going to be real bad.
- [80:39]
A
What do you think?
- [80:40]
C
Look at him in bed with his.
- [80:42]
A
Wife, broken kneecaps or, or, or 38 Cs. What are you saying?
- [80:45]
B
38 Cs all day. All day. Dude, are you kidding me?
- [80:49]
C
Wow.
- [80:50]
B
People are wild again.
- [80:52]
A
Broken, like breaking my brain.
- [80:55]
B
Broken kneecaps is kind of the maybe best thing. They might be leaving. Like you might just be dead, you know, which I don't know what's, what's. I've never had my kneecaps broken. Maybe dead's even better.
- [81:05]
A
Man, you really did used to gamble in the northeast.
- [81:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, those, those two week long trips to Atlantic City have left a scar on me. But yeah, it was. And this is what the poker world used to be filled with people like this when I like first started playing.
- [81:19]
A
We've come so far and I'm telling.
- [81:21]
B
You, a lot of it's your, a lot of now it's like I sit at a table, it's like 30 year old healthy people talking about the gym. And like people live like a clean life.
- [81:28]
A
You know what, Rob? If I'm the reason this isn't happening, I'm glad to take responsibility for that.
- [81:32]
B
You know what? Congrats. There was, I'll leave us with this. There was this guy named Eskimo Clark, you remember him and like so if you watch an old World Series of, he was like one of the characters, not as big as like IV and those guys, but like he, they would talk about him all the time. And he was always in the poker room. Always. And he would, he would stand outside of the poker room with a, with an empty pack of Winston cigarettes. And as soon as like the tournament would lead out for like, you get a break every two hours for 20 minutes, everyone would just go smoke. And when you were walking out, he, he'd start talking to you and he'd be like, yeah, how's it going? Like blah, blah. Yeah. And then he would open the pack and go like, oh, you go, I, I don't have my. Can you give me one? You mind giving me a cigarette? And he was there doing it every single break with the same pack of cigarettes. And then I remember one time seeing him where like somebody like was like, no, couldn't give it to him and people were walking back in and he was like, went in his other pocket, pulled out a pack, took a cigarette out and lit it. And I was like, damn, Eskimo. But like that's what if you talk to old school Gamblers. Like, there's a guy, I don't know if you've ever heard of, Steve Fezick. He's, like, one of the greatest sports gamblers of all time. He won, like, what they consider the World Series of sports betting twice everything. And he still talks where he's like, no, I go place my bets in this place because they give me this and I can get a dollar Gatorade. And he lives in, like, a mansion.
- [82:45]
A
Yeah.
- [82:46]
B
But he just has that old school way of thinking where it's like, no, I go to this casino because when you're walking in, there's a refrigerator right there and I get a Gatorade for a dollar. And that's how Vegas used to be. Like, you had to nickel and dimensional.
- [82:58]
C
Everything and now feel like you're winning everywhere.
- [83:00]
B
Yeah, we're now. I feel like now it's like there's a lot more healthy people in Vegas and, like, kind of. Not that it's all that, but there's a lot more.
- [83:09]
A
Probably more.
- [83:10]
B
Yeah. When I used to go to.
- [83:12]
A
How many more?
- [83:13]
C
Yeah.
- [83:13]
B
When I used to go to Atlantic City, there was not. There were none.
- [83:17]
A
Like, there were. Might be none.
- [83:18]
B
Right? Yeah. But there. It feels like there's more. Like, I remember, like, you know, I was in Atlantic City ten years ago, and even then, like, you go in the gym and like, there were some.
- [83:26]
A
People there, you know, and today's podcast was not sponsored. Sponsored by Atlantic City.
- [83:29]
B
You're right. Yeah.
- [83:31]
A
Sorry.
- [83:32]
C
Sorry.
- [83:32]
A
Is crushing depression taking over? No, I'm just kidding.
- [83:36]
B
Well, you know, I always thought would be a really funny skit is like, you know when they used to have those, like, Foxwood commercials, and it was like, make it happen. And it was like someone rolling the dice and all their money in this. If they really showed what was going on in the casino with, like, a really sad song, that'd be a funny.
- [83:50]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [83:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. And like, somebody on the slot machine with, like, the oxygen mask on on a Wednesday afternoon, they're, like, hooked up.
- [83:57]
A
To it so their arm can stay on there.
- [83:59]
B
Yeah, it was. I remember being so sad walking around casinos on, like, Wednesday afternoon when I'd be in, like, the middle of just waiting for Thursday for people to show up.
- [84:08]
A
This is a great note to end the show on.
- [84:10]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [84:11]
A
Let's just leave them all with this. Like, so on your way to work, just think about the sad grandma living your life at the slots. We'll see you guys again next week.
- [84:17]
B
Me having to buy borgata sweatpants in the gift shop for, like, 150, and being like, these don't fit.
- [84:23]
C
They're not even cozy.
- [84:25]
B
Yeah. Awful. But, hey, we love you. You, too.
- [84:28]
C
Can be.
- [84:30]
B
No, Doug, thank you so much for coming on.
- [84:33]
C
So great.
- [84:33]
B
Thank you.
- [84:34]
C
Yeah, you, too.
- [84:35]
B
Thank you for helping me as a poker player and not. Thank you for helping all the other.
- [84:38]
A
Yeah. Actually, those videos were just for you.
- [84:40]
B
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was. All the views. We really appreciate the viewer. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming in. We'll see you guys next week.
- [84:50]
C
Yep.
- [85:13]
A
Not today. Thank you.
- [85:16]
C
Capone. Watch out.
- [85:18]
B
Manhattan Ripper. Jersey battery.
- [85:22]
C
Capone one time.
- [85:23]
B
Manhattan Ripper at 2J.