Suicide, Radical Listening & the Truths We Leave Unsaid with Sean Wellington

Summary

Podcast Summary: Notes from the Edge
Episode: Suicide, Radical Listening & the Truths We Leave Unsaid
Host: Lisa Lacy
Guest: Sean Wellington (Founder & Host, Suicide Noted)
Release Date: July 29, 2026

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Overview

In this raw, candid conversation, Lisa Lacy sits down with Sean Wellington—founder of the pioneering podcast Suicide Noted—for an unfiltered exploration of suicide, the art (and failure) of true listening, and the complex truths people rarely voice. With both host and guest survivors of deep personal trauma, the episode wrestles with survival, identity, stigma, and the exhausting performance of everyday life. The discussion goes well beyond awareness talk, focusing on the power of radical honesty, the ongoing epidemic of silence, and what it takes to really hear someone’s pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of Suicide Noted (02:33 – 06:26)

• Sean’s best friend died by suicide in the late 90s.
• Chronic illness and hospitalizations in the 2000s exposed Sean to the epidemic of being unheard by friends, clinicians, and family.
• Disillusioned by superficial, “toxic positivity” spins during suicide conferences, Sean craved deeper, more honest conversations.
• “The fact that a random dude in... North Carolina was the one to create the space to have open conversations about suicide should be an absolute embarrassment to you. Yeah, I think I got it right. But you're lucky I did.” — Sean Wellington (09:32)
• Since 2020: 400+ interviews across 47 states, 27 countries; nearly 3,000 hours of editing.

2. The Importance and Mechanics of Radical Listening (07:17 – 12:59)

• Mainstream approaches favor “safety” over honesty, helping everyone but those needing to talk.
• "You don't know who's being silenced... they're silenced because... they probably tried to talk about [suicide and] got their ass shut down." — Sean Wellington (07:56)
• "You got to let people talk. Period. That's the only reason I exist." (08:47)
• On podcast method: pre-recorded, guests can cut anything, but are asked to be as open as possible in the moment. Radical respect, no holding back.

3. The Consequences of Silence and the Failure of Conventional Conversations (12:21 – 15:37)

• People often default to performing or masking, especially when shame or stigma prevails.
• Even when someone says “I’m fine,” that’s often performance—survival, not honesty.
• "We're performing right now to some degree because we're human." — Sean Wellington (14:09)
• “If performance means inauthentic, no. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to be dishonest... at this point, I'm getting decent at knowing myself.” (14:41)

4. What the Suicide Prevention Industry Gets Wrong (16:13 – 21:10)

• Paid speaking and prevention talk circuits demand “recovery narrative” arcs and “stay positive” platitudes, often silencing the true experience of pain.
• "If you want to get paid to speak, you better be a prevention speaker... It is not what I talk about." (16:32)
• Sean directs his message not at survivors, but at everyone around them—who often lack the skills or courage to listen.

5. How to REALLY Listen: The Tactics (21:27 – 26:01)

• The biggest transformative step: "Shut up. You have to stop talking. You have to let the person talk. And included in that are often very long... awkward silences." — Sean Wellington (21:54)
• Avoid conversation “killers”: unsolicited advice, platitudes, quick fixes, cheerleading, shutting people down.
• Curiosity, not canned questions or “active listening” buzzwords, is key.
• “I'm insatiably curious about human beings, especially ones that are suffering. It's not hard for me... Everything else in my life is hard. This is beautiful.” (25:58)

6. The Compassionate but Unapologetically Real Approach (26:30 – 27:28)

• Sean sees the ongoing need for honest, unscripted conversations as fuel for his work, even if it means working unpaid and burning out: "I have to find somebody who can eventually replace me. No one's stepping up." (27:28)
• The work is both selfish (fulfilling a personal need) and selfless ("You could be selfish and selfless. Ironically, they can coexist." (26:49))

7. Understanding Pain, Agency, and the Myth of “Selfishness” (32:05 – 35:08)

• Society’s “zero prevention” mindset clashes with individual autonomy and deep suffering.
• The “selfishness” myth is consistently debunked by attempt survivors: they endlessly consider the impact on loved ones.
• "That's how much pain you cannot wreck. You don't know the pain somebody's going through... The only way to know... is to let people tell you about it and not get in the way." — Sean Wellington (35:08)

8. Breaking Down Conversation Killers & Making Space for Truth (29:03 – 30:07)

• Conversation killers: quick fixing, pontificating, platitudes, denying, cheerleading.
• Don't default to them; instead, “shut up, be curious.”
• “You can ask why. That's a whole myth... Stop with this 'You can't ask why.' You can do whatever you want.” (30:06)

9. Innovations: “The Missing Record” & Narrative Coaching (51:04 – 53:13)

• Sean develops projects like “The Missing Record” and “The Final Record,” offering people a structured audio legacy or a vehicle to finally communicate unsaid truths, especially when live conversations are impossible.
• “I'm a guy who can bring the story out of you... this stuff emerges when someone listens well.” (52:53)

10. The Hard Truth: Living Is Sometimes Harder Than Dying (46:52 – 47:29)

• Sean shares his own lifelong passive suicidal ideation, the realities of middle-aged financial stress, and the spectrum of pain—reminding listeners pain doesn’t discriminate.
• "Living is hard for me. I'm a passive suicide ideator. I've been thinking about taking my life on and off for 20 years... But I know what pain is." (46:52)

11. What We Need: Talking About How We Talk (61:30 – 62:13)

• Instead of only talking about trauma, Sean urges us to focus on how we talk: “I think we need to be talking about how we talk. And under that umbrella are all these words... like listening... how do we engage?” (61:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You cannot measure silence. I’ve yet to find a way.” — Sean Wellington (07:22)

• “My job isn’t to save your life. My job is to create a space so that you and others can feel less shitty and less alone. Full stop.” — Sean Wellington (10:46)

• “Tell me what platitude or pep talk worked on you when you were down?” — Sean Wellington

• “If you never did the following things—gave unsolicited advice, quick fixed, pontificated, offered platitudes, denied, cheerleaded—the conversation would be so much better.” — Sean Wellington (24:11–29:32)

• On curiosity in conversation:
  "You don't have to act like you're... paying attention if you're actually paying attention." (Celeste Headley, cited by Sean, 28:16)

• On agency and suicide:
  “You have agency over your life, Lisa. If you want to take your own life…you’re an adult…You don’t go into something like that lightly.” — Sean Wellington (11:24)

• On “the mask” as performance:
  “We’re performing right now to some degree because we’re human…But if performance means inauthentic, no.” — Sean Wellington (14:09)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sean’s origin story & mission: 02:33 – 06:26
• Silencing and stigma: 07:17 – 08:43
• Failures of standard suicide prevention messaging: 16:13 – 17:53
• How not to ruin the conversation: 21:44 – 25:20
• Curiosity & the mechanics of listening: 25:58 – 26:30
• What to avoid (conversation killers): 29:03 – 29:32
• Money, mental health, and the cost of truth-telling: 26:56, 41:04, 46:52
• The myth of selfishness in suicide: 33:02 – 35:08
• New narrative coaching projects: 51:04 – 53:13
• What conversations do we need most? 61:30 – 62:13

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Tone & Style

The conversation is boldly unfiltered, darkly humorous, and radically honest. Both host and guest oscillate between gallows humor and unsparing reflection, dropping expletives and “real talk” to break down taboo. Sean’s “sarcastic New Yorker” energy pairs with Lisa’s survivor’s grit, making the episode feel more like confidantes trading war stories than a polished interview.

“I'm not a $10,000 keynote speaker, but I am a paid speaker... if you don't like the real truth, I'm not your guy. But if you want to actually see if maybe what you're doing is getting in the way, which is the best starting point—I don't fuck around.” — Sean Wellington (55:19)

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For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This is an urgent invitation to rethink not just how we address suicide, but how we truly “hear” one another. Sean and Lisa challenge listeners to move beyond empty platitudes and forced optimism, encouraging silent, curious, radically honest engagement with those in pain. The discussion is not just about suicide—it’s about the human need to be heard, the failures of cultural scripts, and what it means to drop our performative masks and survive together.

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Further Resources

• Sean Wellington’s initiatives: suicidenoted.com, SeanGWellington.com (including “The Missing Record/The Final Record”)
• Connect with Lisa Lacy: lisalacy.com

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Sean Wellington]

A gator. I'm a gator.

[Lisa Lazy]

Oh, I'm just a ghost. Sports girl. Welcome in, friends. Welcome back to an episode of Notes from the Edge. I am your host, Lisa Lazy, and

[Unidentified Female Host]

this is the place where we have the conversations we should have been having all along. Guess what? You ain't talking about it, but apparently with Sean, today we're gonna be talking about it.

[Lisa Lazy]

Our special guest today is Sean Wellington.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Hey, guys, just a content note. We're going to be having a very candid discussion because this is Notes from the Edge about suicide and ideation and grief and some heavy stuff. If you need to tap out now, please do so. Take care of yourself as you listen, all right? Sean Wellington is the founder and host of Suicide Noted. He is a long time podcaster. It is an independent con. Independent podcast. He has candid long form. I hate that we call conversations and now long form conversations, but we have to. With suicide attempt survivors and people who have experienced suicidal ideation. Since launching his podcast in 2020. What a great time to do it. For people that were so isolated, he has facilitated more than 400 interviews with survivors across 47 states, 27 countries, listeners around the world. He's logged more than 3,000 hours editing human speech. This is interesting. And shaping complex personal narratives. Through his private practice as a narrative coach and audio architect, he helps people give voice to difficult histories, high stakes transitions, and truths that have remained unsaid. He is available for speaking institutional training focused on narrative architecture. We're going to talk about what that is, Sean. And suicide conversations with radical listening. Sean, welcome to Notes from the Edge.

[Lisa Lazy]

How you doing today, my friend?

[Sean Wellington]

I'm better after that introduction you made me.

[Lisa Lazy]

Well, that's all you said.

[Sean Wellington]

I mean, I have busted my ass for a while. I have. That's true.

[Lisa Lazy]

Well, and it's. It always sounds different when somebody else is saying it. When you're like, hey, I'm awesome, it's harder to say. I'll say it for you. You're awesome.

[Unidentified Female Host]

So, Sean, we're just gonna. We're gonna either talk about the questions that I have for you, or we're gonna ditch them all together. What I want to know, what I want to know right now is what happened for you in 2020 to make you go, I need to do such a bold, ballsy podcast and have survivors on what happened.

[Sean Wellington]

Bullet version. Ready?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yep. Go.

[Sean Wellington]

Late 90s best friend kills himself.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Sean Wellington]

A few years later, Sean gets sick. Sometimes Sean talks in third person. He doesn't know why. Has a weird myself.

[Unidentified Female Host]

It's fine.

[Sean Wellington]

Has a weird, intermittent, probably autoimmune thing. And it doesn't get fixed, it doesn't get named. He goes to a lot of doctors. I gotta stop saying he. I'm right here. Anyway, I learned quickly that people, I learned quickly that people, friends, family, co workers, clinicians, doctors are not good at listening. And it, at that time, right. It became very loud. Only my experience. And that it's not that I hadn't experienced bad listening before. It's just when you're sick and you're desperate and your life is falling apart and you really need someone to shut the up and listen, you very quickly realize how few people there are like

[Unidentified Female Host]

that and that, and you realize who your friends are.

[Lisa Lazy]

Oh man.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Do you realize who your friends are really fast?

[Sean Wellington]

Of course, of course. And, and, and that's the first time I start to think when it goes on for months that turn into years. I'm checking out. If this doesn't get better by a certain period of time, there's no way I can exist in this world. I can't navigate this space. Constantly feeling like shit, losing friends. I never go out. I don't have my. It's just, it wrecks your life.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

So I'm giving you a sort of 20 year plus history consolidated in 2000. Late to like 2007. I have a hospital stay, terrible experience. Psych unit, Wrong place. Desperation. Okay. This is One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. Not for me. About 10 years later. Second stay at a really good prestigious place.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Sick for a while.

[Sean Wellington]

Well, it gets complicated with physical and mental health. Right. They overlap and it gets weird at 2000.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Just a heads up, I have a congenital blood disease that's high risk and life threatening. Almost just died again at the beginning of the year and then turned 50 right after. That's why this podcast exists. Exists, by the way.

[Sean Wellington]

Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And I'll just survive 10 events of pulmonary embolisms, like they usually drop people.

[Sean Wellington]

That'll give you the, that'll give you the motivation. So, so real quick, second hospital stay. 19, 20, 19, bad experience. So the point is, I get out now, I'm like 50. Or at that time, not quite 50. This is the time when you'd be like, damn, you look good for over 50.

[Lisa Lazy]

But you, damn, you look good with those red glasses.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Over 50.

[Lisa Lazy]

How about that?

[Sean Wellington]

So I, I, I had, I had gone to of conferences about suicide. I heard the speakers. I say, this is ridiculous.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What was ridiculous about?

[Sean Wellington]

It was fluffy. It was, it was all recovery, false Positivity stuff like toxic positivity recovery, ARCs. There's a place for it. However, there was no place for everybody else. I literally was in the back of a conference room in Washington, D.C. took out a piece of paper or a pad that I had suicide noted. I was like, oh, that's a cute name. I'm the type of guy that would go through a thousand names. No, no, that's the name. It still took me a few months to go and make the podcast, because whatever. I just. I'm all over the place with ideas.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

But I looked and I researched and I said, who's out there having honest conversations with people who've tried to kill themselves or think about it? And the answer was not zero, but very few. And nobody doing it the way I thought it could be done.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Gotcha.

[Sean Wellington]

So on. In July, I just sat my ass down as a half joke and figured out the stuff that tends to be overwhelming by 2020. It's not that hard to start. Podcast.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Even for a guy like me.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Who knows about tech.

[Lisa Lazy]

And.

[Sean Wellington]

And from the first conversation I had with Courtney in Louisiana.

[Lisa Lazy]

I'm from Louisiana. Swabs, Louisiana.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, this is my lane. And now it's over six years, and I haven't missed. I haven't missed a week. I haven't missed a week.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Oh, wow. Congrats.

[Sean Wellington]

Talk to me in six years.

[Lisa Lazy]

I know, I know. I'm like, how the hell I'm gonna keep this up?

[Sean Wellington]

What's crazy is there's still. When I say nobody's talking about. I don't mean literally nobody. Of course, I don't know all the conversations that are happening in the world right now. But I'm going by my experience, basically for what I can find online.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And you were looking.

[Sean Wellington]

I.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You were looking.

[Lisa Lazy]

Of course.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

So I'm looking for. To hear the stories. I can't really find them. Couple of exceptions. There's a woman that did some great work, thought her work was very important. And I said, I want to go harder. I want to go deeper. I want to be respectful and ethical and responsible in the way I do it. But I think a lot of the stuff that is being done is being done with kid gloves. It is not helping anybody. And all the safe stuff is. The safe for the person is everybody else, but the person who wants to talk about it.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. Because it silences us. Right?

[Sean Wellington]

100%. 100%.

[Unidentified Female Host]

100% silences us.

[Sean Wellington]

I won't do the thousand percent.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

There's a place for some of this stuff. It is born pursuit, presumably out of something with good intentions. But what often gets missed is what trickles down. And you cannot measure silence. I've yet to find a way. So let me tell you how many people are out there that are silenced. And when I say that. And I know I go on and on. I'm going to rant. You need to cut me off.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You're on nose.

[Sean Wellington]

You don't. You don't know who's being silenced. That's the. That's the. The irony for lack.

[Unidentified Female Host]

No. We don't know till they're. They're. They're gone.

[Sean Wellington]

Well, they're dead. Or they reach out in some way and. And what will happen.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Nobody was there.

[Sean Wellington]

Here's the thing. Oh. They're silenced because they don't want to talk because there's so much shame. That's part of it. You know what you're not talking about, why they're not talking. They probably tried to talk about they got their ass shut down.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yep.

[Sean Wellington]

And they're not doing it again.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yep. They tried.

[Sean Wellington]

That might take one conversation. It might take five, it might take 10. They're not talking about it. And if it's with somebody they don't like and don't need to have a relationship. Relationship over. If they're a kid with their mom, everything's fine. Mom.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yep, I'm fine.

[Sean Wellington]

Whatever the words we use to deflect the conversation. Then Mom's like, I have no idea what I. What. What. Why he won't open up to me. I have an idea. Sorry. I have a pretty good idea why. I don't know for sure. I'm not saying any of this is

[Unidentified Female Host]

easy, but it's necessary.

[Sean Wellington]

You got to. You got to let people talk.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Period. That's the only reason I exist. That's what I do. I just let people talk. Just like you can't talk.

[Lisa Lazy]

I've created a space. You get to say it. You get to say it.

[Sean Wellington]

I don't live stream. I told you before you hit live, I was like, it's pretty courageous to go live stream. I don't. I had my reasons. One of them is you say anything you want. I send you the recording because you might want to cut something out. But I don't want you to hold back while we're talking. Yeah, well, I think it's. Yeah, it's a nice.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

But also. So, yeah, by the time it gets out, they're okay with everything, but I don't want you to hold back. When we're talking, you can cut it later, but let's go in as hard as we can. Yeah, with you, you know, and I go hard. Like I'll push back sometimes. And I have rarely had a guest be like, dude. But also they find me now, so they already know that I'm the sarcastic New Yorker who's not fucking around. Like, they know this. You know, the ones that get scared by that, they don't reach out to be on my podcast. Right. So I got a very self selected group of suicide attempt survivors and ideators who are down with me and my style. And you'd be surprised.

[Lisa Lazy]

Go.

[Sean Wellington]

You would be surprised. I mean, it shouldn't be me, Lisa. It's a sh. What I mean is. And I wrote a manifesto by the way, with a lot of help of AI and one of the lines, I love that at Claude Wrote, but I, I okayed. It was just something like the fact to, to the establishment, to the system, to the mental health industry and etc. Etc. The fact that a random dude in at the time North Carolina was the one to create the space to have open conversations about suicide should be an absolute embarrassment to you. Yeah, I think I got it right. But you're lucky I did.

[Unidentified Female Host]

How many lives have you saved, my friend? Just because you let people talk, you don't know, right? You don't know.

[Sean Wellington]

No, no, you know. But you know, you know, you know. It's important to say, is that my mantra? That's the right word. Subtitle my through line, for example, when I'm editing, do I keep. When I do I cut it? Do I cut this or not? Because, you know, sometimes a two hour conversation, you got to cut some stuff out. My through line is not. I want to help this person stay alive. It's a consequence often. Of people hearing it. Sure. Of people talking to me sometimes, sure. No, it's less shitty, less alone. That's what it's about now as a byproduct of people maybe want to live. Maybe. But my job isn't to save your life. My job is to create a space so that you and others can feel less shitty and less alone. Full stop. You have agency over your life, Lisa, if you want to take your own life, you're an adult. I assume you, you thought real hard about that for a really long time. There are some exceptions, sure. If you're having a schizoaffective breakdown, if you're a 13 year old whose girlfriend just, of course it's a little different, by and large. Most adults, you don't go into something like that lightly. You don't wake up one day and just kill yourself. Has it happened in the history of the world? Probably. It's a, it's a. It's a John.

[Unidentified Female Host]

I think that's what people miss, though. I think that's what people miss. People are like, oh, my God, it came out of nowhere. It never comes out of nowhere. It never comes out of nowhere. I'm like, I've been trying to tell you guys this for years, you know?

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And you're not even getting it. You're not getting it.

[Sean Wellington]

Correct. Right? I. Yeah, I agree with you. I've never had a guest again. 400 is not 4, 000 or 40,000. Doesn't represent everybody. And I know pretend it does. Right. And I have a select, self. Selected group. They gotta like my style. They have to have WI fi. They have to speak English. They have to be okay sharing their story. It limits the number. That's fine. I will never be able to talk to the 800, 000 people who did die over last year. I can only talk to the people that survived the attempt or think about it. But that's many millions. So I'm talking to a tiny fraction. But nonetheless, 400 is not nothing.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And even the ones that use the word impulsive. I said, tell me how impulsive it was. And when you really start talking about, it's like, yes, in that moment, I just like took it off, veered the car into the tree. But if you listen to the whole conversation, the started when they were 12 and now they're 40. Is that impulsive?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Not at all.

[Sean Wellington]

You know, we could play with words, but yeah, the. The overarching, larger stuff. It builds, man. It builds, it builds. And we're so good at. Because I know one of the words I see right behind your right shoulders performing. And that's can sound pejorative in some contexts, but it's. It's a survival for many people.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yep. What did you perform in order to survive?

[Sean Wellington]

That's literally one of the questions you asked. But you're supposed to wait to the end.

[Lisa Lazy]

But we're gonna wait till the end.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Because I want to know. Because sometimes I don't even just throw any conversation.

[Lisa Lazy]

I had one of the guests yesterday.

[Unidentified Female Host]

She was like, I have never performed in my life. I was like, well, that's a great answer. She's like, I've never worn a mask. I said, I wish.

[Lisa Lazy]

I wish I could say that.

[Sean Wellington]

Oh, man. If I were talking to Her, I would have pushed back hard on that.

[Lisa Lazy]

I needed you to co host for me with that.

[Sean Wellington]

Come on. I mean, Lisa. Lisa. But Lisa, like, you, You. We're. I mean, we're performing right now to some degree because we're human.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes.

[Sean Wellington]

So in a. Maybe different way of using the word right, but like, we. Oh, this isn't the same version of me when I'm out.

[Lisa Lazy]

That would be in a boardroom.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Or on a. Yeah. I mean, there's some overlap almost always with who we are, how we present, you know, But.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, yeah. But.

[Sean Wellington]

But if performance means inauthentic. No.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm not gonna be dishonest. The only things that could possibly be dishonest. I'm so unaware of stuff about myself that I'm actually telling you what I think is the truth, and it's not. But I think at this point, I'm. I'm getting decent at knowing myself the

[Unidentified Female Host]

best that we have with the awareness that we have. But we don't always have awareness, you know?

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, for sure.

[Unidentified Female Host]

We don't always have awareness.

[Sean Wellington]

You know, I mean, I got. I, I. One of the things I've gotten aware about is how bad I am at almost everything. Like, because I'm around all you all. Not you necessarily, but all just, like,

[Lisa Lazy]

I'm on you all.

[Sean Wellington]

No, no. Like, everybody's so good at everything. All the coaches and all the leaderships and the thought leaders. And I'm. And they're so. And I'm like, I'm bad at almost everything. I mean, I mean, I'm pretty good at having conversations and listening, and I've gotten better at editing, but I'm like, holy shit, I suck at, like, almost everything.

[Lisa Lazy]

Listen, man, I'm not a thought leader. I actually just had to change my title for. Look, I did corporate education for 30 fricking years. Three decades. So when I was originally on LinkedIn, I was going to be an executive coach. Like, like executive coach. Well, you had a few clients, and I was like, your business is fine, but your relationships are a hot mess. That's where I can help you. So I had to change it. And my website guy, who used to be one of my coaches, a TedX program, he was like, yeah, that suits you way better. Yeah, yeah, executive coach. Yeah. I had to change. I had to change my, My title.

[Sean Wellington]

I mean, look, you know what? Let's be straight about it. That's where the money is, and I'll tell you. And this is important. I'll tell you where the money isn't.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Where is money?

[Lisa Lazy]

Not.

[Sean Wellington]

Not in my pocket.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Because you're talking about the real.

[Sean Wellington]

Because if you want to get.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Sometimes people don't want to hear it.

[Sean Wellington]

Not sometimes. Most of the time. If you want. If in. Specifically in the suicide space. Not just mental health, suicide. If you want to get paid to speak, you better be a prevention speaker.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What do you mean by prevention speaker?

[Sean Wellington]

I'm going to show you my story of how I tried to end my life. Or I'm going to tell you the story about how I almost tried to end my life. Or I'm going to tell you a story about someone who close to me ended their lives. Don't do it.

[Unidentified Female Host]

That's not helpful.

[Sean Wellington]

That's the spine of most of those talks. They all sound a little different because people look differently and their stories are unique. That is what it is. It might be a little bit around awareness. It is not what I talk about.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What are we missing, Sean? What are we missing in those talks?

[Sean Wellington]

Tell me like, do you mean in the conversations or in the one way presentation?

[Unidentified Female Host]

No, in the, in the talks. So say somebody's like, hey, Sean, I want to book you for 3000 doll talk on stage to talk about suicide and suicide. Noted. And what you have discovered and yeah, interviewing you, the 400 survivors, how would your talk be different than their talk?

[Sean Wellington]

It wouldn't be directed at the survivors. It would be directed at everyone around them. I don't, I, I have had the conversations with the survivors. The, the problem is not them. The problem is everyone around them.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What does everybody around them need to know?

[Sean Wellington]

It's. We. It depends on how much time you have and how much, how much. How granular you want to get. Because look, it's hard. I'm not going to pretend that if your sister or your partner or your mother is thinking about suicide, that is easy. I have what I. I'm objective. I am removed. You are mostly a stranger. When we talk, I have a lot of advantages to be able to listen so. Right.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And hold the space.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, exactly.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

If it's my best friend, it's a little different. If it's my wife, it's a little different. I'm not married, by the way, ladies out there. But if I had. So I don't pretend that it translates so neatly into very, very emotional, love charged relationships.

[Unidentified Female Host]

But there's so I'm glad that you recognize the totalization of when you're close, close, close. It's harder, much harder. But it doesn't Conversations have to happen.

[Sean Wellington]

What. So what's. You asked a question, which is a hard one to answer.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What.

[Sean Wellington]

What, What. What are we missing, I think was what it was.

[Lisa Lazy]

Well, I, I.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And then I. I'm sorry. I asked you two questions back to back. The second one was, how would your talk be different? And you said you already answered it. You said it would be directed at everybody else.

[Sean Wellington]

Correct.

[Unidentified Female Host]

So what does everybody else need to know? Does it circle back to the listening that you opened up with?

[Sean Wellington]

I don't like that word, but yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Why don't you like the word listening?

[Sean Wellington]

Overused. People don't know how to do it. It doesn't matter what the word is if you don't know how to do it. Like it does. It's just a word. And people put fun, cute little things in front of it. Like it's completely active listening.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Like, let's call it a radical active. It's like it's the same radical activity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How many adjectives do you need to add to it? Like you're creating this unique concept. You know what? Most of it is.

[Lisa Lazy]

It.

[Sean Wellington]

It boils down to a few simple things. But psych. Tactically, if you were to teach it, it's. It's hard because it's nuanced and it's personal. And sometimes people. Here's the thing. And then I will answer the question that people don't want to admit, particularly in western culture, where we can do anything we set our minds to. That's a lie. I can't dunk a basketball, and I never will be able to. All right. Some people are just better at it than others.

[Lisa Lazy]

I was in basketball, and they. My coach just said, give it to Belinda, who was my bully and the tallest girl.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Lisa Lazy]

So, yeah, I can.

[Sean Wellington]

Some of you are just. I don't know how you got to be better listeners. Some of you just are. Okay, let's. As a starting point, we're not all starting at the same place.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay. Fair.

[Sean Wellington]

I don't know if I answered the why. I don't like the word. It matters less than what are people getting, quote, unquote wrong? Or let's frame it positively, what they can do better. It's like there's two parts to that. Because if you're afraid or just uncomfortable with it, I really can't help you with that. I don't know how to get you out of that. What I know are the consequences if your fear and your discomfort are getting in the way of having open and honest conversations. I Can tell you the impact that's probably having on somebody. Now, I'm not a fucking life coach or a therapist or a counselor. And if you're dealing with trauma or your own grief or whatever, and that's the reason you're uncomfortable, I'm not the guy to talk to. I'm just not. Okay. But if you can sit with the person and the question really might be and here's my, my, my talk. If anyone ever wanted to pay me for it would be I'll do it for free too. Not to the people that are in the uncomfortable, fearful or obviously shaming critical. Because no one wants to talk to you anyway.

[Lisa Lazy]

Right.

[Sean Wellington]

It's for the people who think they're doing well that are well intentioned and don't understand why the person's closing up. I'm going to tell you why. Because you. Because you're probably talking too much, which is ironic because I'm ranting right now. Wait, you need to.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You need to suffering.

[Sean Wellington]

So your goal. So if we could take what I do on my podcast and I'm gonna give myself a little pat on the back.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Sean Wellington]

One, shut up. You have to stop talking. You have to let the person talk. And included in that are often very long for some people. Awkward silences. And there's a reason it's not performative. It's hard for people to find the words to this stuff. Sometimes it's hard. They're testing that they can actually trust you. Among other things. Let it sit. I don't care how long. I have never once had somebody say to me, why are you just not talking? What's the never? Is it as it happened? Sure. Then I would say I just wanted to make sure you were done. No problem. Stop talking. It's literally. There was one takeaway. Here's the problem. If it is a rant that someone needs to snotty cry and you just need to be quiet. You know those. And then just give them a crime.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And then. And then. And then just give them a hug. You don't have to say a damn word. The problem is most of the time it's a conversation and you have to meaning the person in support. In this case, you have to open your mouth. And when you do that things tend to go awry and you don't know why.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And they shut down. We shut down.

[Sean Wellington]

We sometimes shut down or we change the way we talk.

[Unidentified Female Host]

We do.

[Sean Wellington]

We don't necessarily shut down. We perform because.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Well, they're getting uncomfortable.

[Sean Wellington]

My. My older brother, who I've known my whole life you love me. I know you care. So I'm not. But you've already. You've already made it clear with the way you're engaging with me, I can't be completely open and honest. Why? Well, you didn't say that, presumably explicitly, but you're leading, for example, off with any number of things that I call conversation closers, or we're not really being honest about its conversation killers. And they're all the things we've all dealt with and we've often done ourselves. For example, like unsolicited advice. Never needed. Ever.

[Unidentified Female Host]

I hate it.

[Sean Wellington]

So I've been really hot. I don't have the list in front of me, but it's just a bunch of shit we all deal with. So you could literally say if you never did the following things ever, ever, it wouldn't be. You would only be helping this conversation.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

You never need to offer some sort of platitude. I mean, if I. Actually, there's an extent. I have a friend who told me when I'm feeling down, and I'm lucky that she was so vocal about this. When I'm feeling down, I want someone to say, it's going to be okay. So when someone's communicating with you, how to communicate with them, of course. Honor that. But if you don't have that information, and often you don't, you can ask, but sometimes you just don't. Or they don't know. Oh, I don't know. I just want someone to hear me. Okay.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

But, like, don't get in the way of the conversation. But people don't understand that. Like, they're not there for your advice unless they ask. Then give your advice.

[Unidentified Female Host]

But yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Or you can ask them. I had this idea it might help. Do you want to hear it? Yes or no? If they say yes, you give it. If they say no, that's it.

[Lisa Lazy]

Don't. Boom.

[Unidentified Female Host]

It's. That's how every relationship should be.

[Sean Wellington]

So I think about it as. As you got to stay quiet more for them to be able to open up. Promise. They probably want to talk more than you think they do. They're probably. We talk about dying to be heard. It's not. It's a cute expression, but there's a lot of truth to it. Silence is number one. I can't cultivate curiosity in people, but the way I can do my job well is I am insatiably curious about human beings, especially ones that are suffering. It's not hard for me. People say, isn't it Hard for you to sit with people who are in pain or were in pain. I say no. Everything else in my life is hard. This is beautiful.

[Unidentified Female Host]

When I leave, I can do that, Sean.

[Sean Wellington]

That's why I'm doing it. That's why I ended up being the guy I. And it's weird because you wouldn't have thought it, but, like, so cool. All right. People say, well, it sounds like. Are you getting off on it? I'm like, what do you mean? Is it like. I'm like. You love hearing people. Oh, yeah. It's like, it sounds like you, like, really like hearing people talk about their pain. I'm like, no, I like wow face. And you asked me my why. I think in so many words.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I created the space that wasn't there that I needed.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You filled the gap 100%. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And guess who feels that I'm selfish. Mother. I'm. I'm selfish. I'm selfish, man.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I did it in part for me.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. But you can be my dream job right now. Seriously. You could.

[Sean Wellington]

You could be selfish and selfless. Ironically, they can coexist.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I've done this for free.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Sad and feed people at the same time. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I mean, it was a passion project that at some point they tried to monetize in between a membership. And I'm fiscally sponsored, so people can give tax deductible donations. But I've done the math with, with conversations. Plus the editing. 3000 is probably not. Is is lowballing it. I, I worked it out to be like 20 cents an hour. I've been working for, for six years. I'm broke. I got 20 people I haven't edited yet. And I got three more conversations. Yeah. I can't do it all.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Wow.

[Sean Wellington]

And, and, and, and, and I'm. The need is going to outlive me. I, I have to find somebody who eventually replace me. I'm. No one's, no one's stepping up.

[Lisa Lazy]

They don't want your job, man.

[Sean Wellington]

One more thing. Because we. How people talk is like. I could talk about that for a long time. I just wanted to add one more thing. There are things you're doing that are probably. And I don't mean body language.

[Lisa Lazy]

Sure.

[Sean Wellington]

All that matters, but just the basics. Like talk less, be curious, which I don't know if you can actually do if you're not curious. I, I, Celeste Headley had that great quote I saw on one of her talks, and she says, you don't have to act like you're. Or look like you're paying attention. If you're actually paying attention.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Fair.

[Sean Wellington]

But I don't know if we can get people to do that if they don't actually want to know. Some people don't want to know that their brother wants to kill himself.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Some people don't want to know. It sounds like a song, but my husband's a musician. I'm gonna tell him that title. So.

[Sean Wellington]

No, listen. I mean, so that's the thing. If you don't want to know, maybe you're not the right person they should be talking to.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Well, maybe. And stop. Yeah. Because you're gonna make it worse.

[Sean Wellington]

Probably.

[Lisa Lazy]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Because what's going to happen is they're either going to walk away, they're going to fake it for a while, they're not going to come back to you. Probably. To ever talk about it. Not really. But again, if this is somebody in your life because you got to say something that you're a total. You're not going to ignore them. So when it comes up, you're going to just say whatever it is to get out of the conversation. That's like 98 of what conversations are. They're not even conversations.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, they don't happen.

[Sean Wellington]

They don't happen. And that's right. Even if silence don't kill the conversations, we can't get into all the conversation killers. But quick fixing is one of them. Pontificating is another. Platitudes is another. Denying isn't. I mean, it's. I will send you my list. You can share it with people if you want.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Please do.

[Sean Wellington]

None of them are not. Cheerleading is one of them, in my opinion.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Go, go, go.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lisa Lazy]

All of this.

[Unidentified Female Host]

So you got this? Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Are there moments when that might be the right. Okay, here and there. But the core of it. Your defaults is what I say. Don't default to them. Your default should be most quiet. They don't work. It's all. They do not work. Oh, but in this. Okay. There's always an exception in a but. Let's break down why it was okay, then maybe don't use that as your default. Your default should be shut up. Be curious. You can ask why. That's a whole myth.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Love the word why.

[Sean Wellington]

Stop with this. You can't ask why. You can do whatever you want. You'll get the message if it's okay or not pretty quickly.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Why requires curiosity. And can you teach curiosity? Oh, wait, you cut out. You cut out. Guys, hang on. Sean sometimes has problems with the sound, so he's going to fix it for Us. But yeah, guys, we. While he's fixing his sound. We love asking better questions in here. Why? Is a great freaking question. Not what's wrong with you, but why do you feel this way? Why do you want to do that? Why is a great question. Still can't hear you. Oh, you're coming back now you're on. Oh, no, now you're still muted. All right, I'm gonna talk, guys. Okay. All right. So I think we need to find a stage for Sean is what I'm thinking. Yeah. Because we started Notes from the Edge. I think you're back, Sean. We started Notes from the Edge to have these real conversations. And I think other than Harold, who is the CEO of the World Mental Health Forum, who lost four people to suicide. His. His mother, his daughter, his brother, someone else. And he quit his job in entertainment industry to start the World Mental Health Forum. His name is Harold Asmon. He's an amazing dude. You're good now. Yeah, yeah. But he talked real about suicide. But yeah, he said, this hasn't happened in my life by accident, and I can't continue to work in the entertainment industry now that I know what I know. And he honors survivors, you know.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

But part of. For me, too, is I'm balancing that. I am. I lean pretty heavily towards agency and autonomy. And so that's a tough one to balance.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Right. Like in the Prevention act hard, tell me.

[Sean Wellington]

Because we live in a world where we have to save everybody's life at all costs. Zero. Prevention. Prevention. Prevention, prevention. That's the dominant narrative. The afs, AFSP and the other large organizations. It's what they tout. That's all you see on Facebook and Twitter and everywhere.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. It's our own damn life. And we get to do with it what we want. Right?

[Lisa Lazy]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And some people will push back in these scenarios. Where do you really. And I say one of my questions is, yeah, I want to. If. If. If I were able to talk to you from the grave and a year later, you regret your decision. I don't want you to kill yourself. No, I just. I don't think people understand that how much people are struggling and that they very rarely come to this decision lightly.

[Unidentified Female Host]

No.

[Sean Wellington]

And if you haven't. When. When somebody tells me, well, so one of the questions I always ask is, what are these myths or misconceptions about it in your experience? And top. The number one answer is, it's not selfish. Now, of course, I'm asking the attempt survive. I remember saying, I wonder if I asked the lost Survivors if they would feel differently. I had some guy reach out and said, I'm a lost survivor. I lost my partner. I'm a community of lost survivors. And we don't think it's selfish. I was like, I'm gonna. How can I read this on the air? Because. Check, right? So some do. Some feel that way. I had people literally use that word when they heard about my friend's death. You know, so one of the things I found that's fascinating is what most. I won't say all ever people who are contemplating suicide do more than anything else, way more than their plan is think about everybody in their life for years sometimes. That's all.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What do you mean? They think about so other focused they are.

[Sean Wellington]

They are trying to balance. How can I stay in this world for my. The people that love me versus my. I'm in so much pain.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

So when I hear that somebody tried to end their lives, what I hear isn't selfish. Typically it's never for me, but it is. That's how much pain they were in. That they were. That they. They have three daughters. They love.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Love more than anything.

[Sean Wellington]

They're not stupid. They know the impact.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

That's how much pain you cannot wreck. You don't know the pain somebody's going through. What if the pain they were going through was akin to someone. Like the moment you break your arm and it's the kind of pain that, like if you don't get morphine within 10 minutes, you're gonna flip. Like, what if you don't know that maybe that's actually what they're feeling? Probably not. But like, you just don't know. We're real quick to make assumptions and think we know and label and you don't. And the only way to know. Unless you read minds and tell me. Please give me a call if you.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You can't read minds, folks.

[Sean Wellington]

The only way.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You can't make assumptions either.

[Sean Wellington]

If you're a mind reader. This doesn't apply to you. You can stop listening. The way. The way.

[Lisa Lazy]

I have some mad spiritual gifts, my friend.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah. The way to do it. I'm telling you, the only way I found to do it is to let people tell you about it and not get in the way. Yeah, that's a lot of it. And yeah, then sometimes you gotta. You're engaged in a conversation and that's, that's. That's a. You know, these little. You, you, you. You can listen to all the acronyms you want. That's not gonna help you too much. About how to have a good conversation. The qPR and the assist and these others and prevent. That's a starting point.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Sure, dude, I did all the acronyms.

[Lisa Lazy]

All the acronyms. And I was still waking up going, I don't want to be here.

[Sean Wellington]

Why do I break? Why, why, why do people still talk to me? I'm breaking all of them. Not intentionally. I just think some of them are dumb and they're made by people who, who are either don't know any better or maybe just like, I got a pretty high paying job. I mean, the CEO of the AFSP makes over $600,000 a year. That's cool. You should be paid. That is not in line with what other non profits that have been around for 39 years pay their CEOs that have the record they have, which is really mostly not measurable and in many ways abhorrent.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You can't measure this.

[Sean Wellington]

A lot of it's not measurable. So that it.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Because you don't know.

[Sean Wellington]

So, so that, what do they measure is how many people showed up to the walkathon. You can measure that. But the suicide rate's gone up. And I'm not blaming them that the suicide rate's gone up because maybe if they weren't around, it'd be double.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, okay. So, yeah, I'm gonna tell you something right now. I've got a big talk coming up in December and the title of the talk is check this out. So I, I am menopausal. And what I was not prepared for, well, with my blood disease, I can't take treatment none because it causes clots and I have a clot, a congenital clotting disorder.

[Lisa Lazy]

So my doctor, my male doctor gives me some Valium and he's like, wing it. I was like, are you kidding me? That's it. That's it. I just killed my husband's plants and made him cry. And you're telling me to wing it? I did. I was just like in a menopausal rage.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What I did not realize is suicidal ideation is highly compatible with menopause.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

The highest suicide rate for women across the globe is. Guess what age.

[Sean Wellington]

50s. No, it's actually, it's. I, I think you're going to be wrong. It's over 80.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Is it over 80? I thought it was, I thought it was 45 to 65 somewhere.

[Sean Wellington]

Okay, guess what, Guess what. They're both, they're both high.

[Lisa Lazy]

I mean, they're high everywhere. Everywhere.

[Sean Wellington]

But, but we know 75 and older and that. And that comes with some differences is that you're getting to the end of life. There's a lot of reasons why at 75, 80, 85, there's a higher percentage that don't pertain to people a little younger, but middle aged women, perimenopausal, menopausal, the chemical changes, amongst other things.

[Unidentified Female Host]

It's the biggest neurobiological change women go through in their entire lives. And nobody's talking about it. So few people, nobody's talking about it.

[Sean Wellington]

Right.

[Unidentified Female Host]

So I, the, the, it's a, it's a small business expo, so I have to do work. So the title of the talk is. Is menopause and a depression affecting your work? But I'm going to introduce that. A study in 2025. Dude, they're just now studying menopause in 2025.

[Sean Wellington]

Right? Just starting, just starting.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And now they have linked suicidal ideation to menopause and suicide. But again we don't know because people are gone.

[Sean Wellington]

So that's the only way I, so it made sense to me that if I can't talk to dead people, I'll talk to the ones that tried. And then somebody a couple years in said you what about the people who are thinking about it? That's actually a larger group. Are you curious about them? And I was like, I really am curious about them. I wonder if the top survivors are going to have a problem with them. Yeah, you didn't try, you're not, you're not part of the club, man. You didn't actually try to off yourself. One person emailed that. I was like, I'll make the decisions but thanks for your feedback. You do, you do two years of work at the time and, and all the exhausted an hour and then I'll take your thoughts into consideration. But thank you for your email.

[Lisa Lazy]

Did you reply? Did you?

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, I was, I was nicer than that. I'm being a little dramatic here. I'm making myself look like a bad guy and I'm not a bad guy.

[Lisa Lazy]

You're a good guy, man.

[Sean Wellington]

I'm like doing this work well, I'm like, I want to be tough guy, but at the end of the day. But the thing is this, you don't have to talk to. If I, if I said to you this, you know, there's this podcast where the, this person talks to suicide attempt survivors and it's really open and it's really honest. You don't know anything about them or the podcast other than what I shared. Describe this person. I guarantee you most people like older woman, maybe a former counselor or therapist or nurse. Really soft spoken, guess what?

[Lisa Lazy]

And then I see you. You're like, who the is this guy?

[Sean Wellington]

But it works. I'm not gonna be the guy that said, well, if I can do it, you can do it, because I've got some skills. I'll tell you not.

[Unidentified Female Host]

No, listen. Not everybody can sit with people in pain. That is true. Emotional suffering.

[Sean Wellington]

That is true. And then added to add to that, engage, have a two or three or four hour conversation.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Wow. You just let them go.

[Sean Wellington]

I direct and let them go. I'm facilitating, too. I do that in part because they need structure sometimes because they're. It's go tell you a life story. Good luck. It's hard. The questions matter. Me summarizing for the audience and them matters. The things I do matter. There's a narrative framework, but yeah, I

[Unidentified Female Host]

want to talk about that narrative. So narrative coach, talk to me about that. Well, talk to me about that.

[Sean Wellington]

Let me just be really honest about one thing.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Sean Wellington]

I have a branding issue. Okay.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Sean Wellington]

If I stay in suicide, unless I get a grant, and I've tried, I don't make money. I've tried just about everything. And I. I want to dedicate much more time. So how do I make money? So in the last couple years, you know, I did and I. It was something, but it wasn't enough. Because you got to remember one thing. On social media platforms, they don't share my stuff. They don't make it easy for the world to find.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Oh, God, I didn't even think about that.

[Lisa Lazy]

No, they won't.

[Sean Wellington]

A lot of stuff gets shut down.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

But here's another thing people don't think about. You see my. Let's get Sean's name out there. You know what? Right now, that means more work for Sean and less paid work because the podcast doesn't pay. So I'm in a real interesting backed up corner.

[Unidentified Female Host]

I want to talk to as many people.

[Sean Wellington]

I want to talk to as many people as I can, but unless I can, like, outsource the editing, I'm just one guy. There's only so much I can do. And then it ends up being that we talk today and your episode isn't out for 10 months.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Today or tomorrow, by the way, it's

[Sean Wellington]

just saying, yeah, wink, wink. So.

[Lisa Lazy]

So you gonna be out? You're gonna be out tonight?

[Sean Wellington]

Oh, I've tried. I've tried all kinds. So. So back in the day, I was a personal narrative story coach. That was like, predating. I had a Company or an organization called True Stories that Matter. But that was personal story, beginning, middle, end. Like, if you know anything about the moth. That kind of story. What I'm doing with these people is different. There's a narrative framework, but it's not a. I'm just going to talk for seven minutes about my life. It's right two hours, and then I narrow it down to an hour. But there's.

[Unidentified Female Host]

That's a lot of editing work.

[Lisa Lazy]

Yeah,

[Unidentified Female Host]

Sean.

[Sean Wellington]

I mean, but you know what? You know, you know, it gets really interesting when you. When you edit and you edit and you edit is you hear yourself and the conversations again and again and again. And you can let you.

[Unidentified Female Host]

1.

[Sean Wellington]

I can get better at what I do. But then you hear it over and over and you're like, okay. And I don't know if there are clear patterns that have emerged. I mean, there are some patterns that emerge and some similarities, at least with my guests. But I am obsessed with conversation. I mean, I just think the mechanics of it are fascinating to me, the way even, like. Sorry, I'm even, like, evaluating you, because I can't not.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Oh, I can tell.

[Sean Wellington]

I'm like. And I. And people will be like, oh, you shouldn't cut people off ever. That's just not how the real world works. But. So I do it, but I own it. Right? So I'll cut.

[Lisa Lazy]

Oh, sorry. My mom was like, I'm gonna be a. And you like it or you could not like it. Look, I'm like, I'm hanging up now.

[Sean Wellington]

I don't know if this will make sense to most people listening if they don't know a little bit about audio. I edit on one track, not two. And the only reason that matters is if I talk over you and then I edit, you're going to hear that. So I either cut it or leave it. It doesn't matter the details. But if you edit on two tracks, you can cut one person out, but it's much more time consuming. I edit on one track, which makes me think, you're going to have to edit this. So. So don't talk over them, which is good anyway.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Right, Right.

[Sean Wellington]

But the point is, I up a lot, and you know what I do? I say, lisa, I should have taught. You're in the middle of telling me the story about your first attempt, and I just cut you off. I'm an asshole. My bad. Would you please. Can you go on? I'm sorry. And they're always like, sure, because we're in the middle of a conversation. It's not an interview question answer, Bop Bob. Now, if I did that every minute, it's a problem. I. I don't do it much, but I own it. And that's a good thing for people to do.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

You're not going to be perfect. That idea is not even a real idea. It's a concept. It doesn't exist. It's ridiculous. Unless we're talking about something measurable, which this is not. It is not own your man. You talk if. If you're.

[Lisa Lazy]

I think that.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Oh, man, you could save lives if you own your. I'm telling you, I promise, if you're listening.

[Sean Wellington]

And I'm just. I'm not. And I'm not. I mean, I'm not talking broadly about everything. I'm even just talking within a conversation because that's what I talk about. So I'm not saying own your sorry I cheated or I'm not. I'm not giving you marital advice about own your. What I'm saying is, by the way, cheating isn't usually good for relationships. But I'm single, so what the. Can I. By the way, ladies, I'm single, but I'm in Mexico, so good luck finding me.

[Lisa Lazy]

Are you Mexico? I don't know you.

[Sean Wellington]

So. But like, if I'm in the middle

[Lisa Lazy]

of a conversation, somebody's talking to me

[Sean Wellington]

about going through something hard. And by the way, not all the conversations to have are only about their suicide. I'm just talking. We'll just talk about their life.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

It's a suicide. The best starting point ever.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Because you can talk about anything once you go there. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

Everything is open.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Everything's cake. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And three hours later, we're tired and I go back to the world.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Wow.

[Sean Wellington]

I like. I. But, but you have to understand, I'm in my lane. I'm good at it. I like it. I'm doing. I'm helping people, I think. And then I hang up and I go back to the world that I don't like. So is it hard for me? No. Other. Other things are hard for me, but

[Unidentified Female Host]

this is your jam.

[Sean Wellington]

This isn't hard for me. Living is hard for me. I'm a passive suicide ideator. I've been thinking about taking my life on and off for 20 years. I understand some of what you're saying. I never presume to understand anybody else's life experience. Right. So I want to be careful with that word. But I know what pain is. I know what feeling unheard is. I know what feeling marginalized is. Yes. Even as a middle class able Bodied, heterosexual male, privileged. I've been in some pain. And we can living this. We can allow for white guys to be in pain too.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes. Living is hard. I. I don't want to gloss over that. You said that this life is hard. And if you throw anything at us. Mental illness.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Psychiatric.

[Sean Wellington]

And then you do. You do what you do to cope. Right? Why does Sean. Here he goes again. Third person. I know you noticed that I drink almost every night. Not to excess, but none of your goddamn business anyway. You know why? Why?

[Lisa Lazy]

You want a drink, man?

[Sean Wellington]

No, no, no. Just. Let's just talk about and because. And I'll share this openly. Anything you want, I'll share. I'll. Because. And you know why it's not. It's not just verbal diarrhea? Because a lot of people out there are going through this and a lot of them won't talk. So maybe they hear this. I'm not saving or anybody, but if somebody tells me I've heard it, I've been on the other end. I'm like, God damn, I feel that way. I'm a middle aged, single broke guy who's busting his ass. That's a tough spot to be in. Who probably has some undiagnosed for sure, but the cognitive ability to run a podcast for six years, you just balancing it out. I got some sleep and editing.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Teaching yourself how to do it.

[Sean Wellington]

I got a relationship issues and I got all the. So people cope. Why would you drink that much to cope? Because life is hard, that's why. But you realize the damage it's doing. Yeah. You think I'm fucking stupid. Of course I know the damage it's doing.

[Lisa Lazy]

I can tell people that my life. I mean, you have your blood disease. I'm like, everybody fuck off. Do you. I'm living with it. I'm the one living with it.

[Sean Wellington]

Do you realize that smoking is likely to end you? Yeah, I'm not. I'm on. I'm in the world. I'm aware. Obviously what you're unaware of is what it's doing for me.

[Lisa Lazy]

Well, Sean, listen. You'll love this. Listen. So my husband and I are celebrating eight years of recovery together because we. We avoid prison that way.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Seriously.

[Lisa Lazy]

And I mean literally, because I'm a convicted felon. Long story there, but yeah. Eight years ago. But he is 16 years younger than me. Okay, Now, I didn't know how old he was when I met him because he grade early. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Grade early? He had a full beard. Wait. And when he told me his age I was like, oh, hell. We were already. We were already chatting, and I was like, I gotta run.

[Unidentified Female Host]

But listen, cougar. I'm not a cougar, because apparently you are.

[Lisa Lazy]

Lisa. A still small voice said, lean in.

[Sean Wellington]

Okay.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And his. His hand was on the back of the couch, and his still small voice said, lean in. So I touched his hand, and it was electricity.

[Lisa Lazy]

And.

[Unidentified Female Host]

But I will tell you this. Yeah, he is 16 years younger.

[Lisa Lazy]

And.

[Unidentified Female Host]

And I am 50 years old, and I run businesses, and I've raised the

[Lisa Lazy]

kid, and I've survived the suicide illness

[Unidentified Female Host]

and psychiatric institutionalization and jail. And, yeah, sometimes I have to pull

[Lisa Lazy]

the authority, you know, hold up like one one.

[Sean Wellington]

You know, you can always be a guest on my podcast. You're obviously eligible. Right? You've tried to kill yourself.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes, first time when I was 15. Yeah. Very strategically.

[Sean Wellington]

I'll come tell you, it will be easier because I'll. Because then it'll become the Suicide Noted podcast right now. And you don't want that.

[Lisa Lazy]

Oh, don't do it.

[Sean Wellington]

So don't start.

[Lisa Lazy]

Look, we're at 50 minutes.

[Sean Wellington]

Give me one more. Give me one more. And then I have one final question.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You got the floor?

[Sean Wellington]

I wanted to just complete something. A loop that wasn't closed.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Okay.

[Sean Wellington]

Talked about branding.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. What's going on there?

[Sean Wellington]

This isn't me complaining about anything. The world is the world. I made my choices. I've earned my place in the suicide world. With six years, I can get on a stage and in three months be making ten grand a speech. I choose not to because that's not the message I choose. And others are already doing it. Okay. So there are other things that I do. So, you know, I. You did a little homework.

[Unidentified Female Host]

I have.

[Sean Wellington]

I'm not selling. I have something called the missing record and the final record. And they're both essentially. They're the same thing, but one's just a higher end, longer process. And they're simply this. There are people that are having conversations or not having the conversations they want to have. And it's a way to have a conversation sort of with me so that you can share that information with people that you want to have this, that you want to communicate with, like your mom, who you haven't talked to in 10 years, who's 80 years old, who, by the way, that's my story. You're never going to be able to have a live conversation. And if you try to do it yourself, the audio message, the email, it's hard. So the service. And this is a relatively new service, Both of these. Okay, well, one's called the Missing Record and one's called the Final Record. Actually, the link that you shared on your LinkedIn post, Sean gwellington.com is actually going to the one that's the more expensive one. And that's for the. Like we get you. Do you have like a six hour marathon with me and I cut it to like 90 minutes. That's like legacy stuff. That's like legacy stuff.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Love it.

[Sean Wellington]

But I think the thing that's going to be more common and it's much more reasonably priced. I think they're both priced fairly, but not for everybody. And I also do a pay it forward type of thing, but nonetheless is like the thing where you're not going to have that conversation, you're not going to write the letter and you're going to die. So if you want it to be unsaid. I'm not a conversation coach. Where I'm getting in there with you and your mom. No, no, no, no. That's not my.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You're not a mediator, correct?

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, I'm a guy who can bring the story out of you. You've got some of it. You don't have all of it. Because this stuff emerges when someone listens. Well, so maybe no one's ever even done that for you. And then we have an honest conversation and then you can include. To use my voice in it or not. And talk directly to your mother or not. Like there's different ways you can structure it. But that's a new thing for me because for the past few years I'm trying to figure out a way to use the skills I have to make enough money to expand the work that doesn't pay.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, well. And I'm absolute links. I need both of those links. And we're gonna, we're gonna talk because I've got some ideas for you actually. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

If this is the final word, can I ask you a question?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes, you may. What do you got?

[Sean Wellington]

It's going to be asked to you on my podcast as well. Here it is.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What is it?

[Sean Wellington]

You're 50 years old, you've tried to kill yourself.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes.

[Sean Wellington]

You have a life threatening disease.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yes.

[Sean Wellington]

I have a pink and purple pill. If I give you the pill and you take it, you go to sleep, you don't wake up, there is no pain and nobody knows it's a suicide, what do you do with it?

[Unidentified Female Host]

I hold on to it.

[Sean Wellington]

Why?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Just in case.

[Sean Wellington]

Thanks for answering. Appreciate that. That's honest. That's what honesty looks like.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, that's what we do in here, man.

[Sean Wellington]

I mean, I. I like it. I like it. I like your style. I like your program. I am so jealous. You have no idea. I'm pissed

[Lisa Lazy]

out there. Listen, I get on here, and I'm like, hey, Sean, we're going live on every.

[Sean Wellington]

No. Because my friend. Friend tells me. I'm like. Because I was. You know, I listen to a little bit of your podcast before I. We talk, but I get on there, I see. Oh, I'm like, she's got, like, all thousands of reviews. I'm like, this. Like, I've been at this for six years. I mean, I got some really good reviews and some really nice ratings. Right? But, like, who the are you after six weeks? What, like, you haven't paid your. Dude, now you've paid your dues in other ways?

[Lisa Lazy]

I know I did, man. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I had a friend that had to tell me that because I told my mom, and my mom's like, I don't even understand what you do. So this morning, I was crying to one of my friends, and I was like, she sucks. She doesn't understand how good this is and what I've actually done in six weeks. She's like, lisa, it took decades for you to get here.

[Sean Wellington]

100%. Let me. Let me. Let me squeeze this in real quick.

[Lisa Lazy]

All right, what you got?

[Sean Wellington]

Because you do have a big audience.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I AM Not a $10,000 keynote speaker, but I am a paid speaker, and it is. I have two. Two very similar presentations. One's called the Silence Paradox, and one's called Less Shitty, Less Alone. And they are aimed at people around. Not just people who want to kill themselves, people in pain, which is everybody. Because you're alive.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

And it is a different type of talk than you're used to. And you will walk away with nothing else. Not every tactic and trick in the toolbox, because no one's doing that in an hour from a stage, you will leave with a different kind of awareness so you can maybe get started in that direction.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Perspective.

[Sean Wellington]

And I don't fuck around. So if you don't like the real truth, I'm not a guy. But if you want to actually see if maybe what you're doing is getting in the way, which is the best starting point. And you have people, and, you know, you got to be somebody who can afford it. Like, I'm flexible. I'm not this guy who's trying to make a gazillion dollars, but working for.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Got to make 11. Yeah, yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

What I've said in my style and exceptional good looks are something you want to talk? I, I, Then we can talk. And maybe I could get on one of your stages, whether it's virtual or in real life. But I'm in Mexico, so it's probably virtual, full stop. I'm done and seen.

[Lisa Lazy]

I don't know. Can you travel?

[Sean Wellington]

Like, yeah, but you got to pay me for that.

[Lisa Lazy]

Okay, well, we'll talk.

[Unidentified Female Host]

We'll talk. The thing is, I can't.

[Lisa Lazy]

I'm not medically released to travel right

[Unidentified Female Host]

now because of my. I can't take long drives because it causes clots. I can't fly, certainly, because the altitude change causes clocks. So the talk in January or December is in Atlanta, which is only an hour from us.

[Sean Wellington]

Oh, you should drive.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. So I can drive there. So I can. But I, I've got some ideas for you. So we're going to talk. So my, I would ask you questions. Okay, my turn. Because we're at 57 minutes, and I, I keep it tighter than an hour.

[Lisa Lazy]

I don't, I don't let you roll for four hours. All right.

[Unidentified Female Host]

In your life performance, what have you performed in order to survive? And did you. And if you did drop that role, masker performance, what did it do for you?

[Sean Wellington]

I think I, I don't know how to answer the question. I think when you're asking that it's a mask type of performance, Right?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Maybe.

[Sean Wellington]

I think mostly I am like one of your other listeners where, like, I kind of mostly rolled through life not being unfiltered. Unfiltered, but still performing.

[Unidentified Female Host]

What do you mean?

[Sean Wellington]

Right. Well, I, I'm pretty open and I'm pretty honest. I don't around. I'm pretty straightforward. I speak French clearly, fluently.

[Unidentified Female Host]

That's cool.

[Sean Wellington]

But. No, I just mean I say a lot. But, but that's just, that's just like, that's just the New York thing. The French is irrelevant.

[Lisa Lazy]

Like, it's a Louisiana swamp thing, too, man. Don't.

[Sean Wellington]

Oh, Cajun. Let's go. Yeah, I think, I think I don't have. Help me answer that question. I don't know how to answer a question in which it's like, how did I perform? Because I think you might not agree with me, but I respect the fact that you're probably okay with that. Is. I think we're always. Even when we're. The mask is totally off. It ain't totally off. You can't be 100. You can't be a hundred percent exposed all the time.

[Unidentified Female Host]

There's always a place where you're gonna have to perform. I will agree with that. Yeah, work, Right. You got to perform, right?

[Sean Wellington]

Right. Well, not in my case, but yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Because you've got your dream job. You just. We got to get.

[Sean Wellington]

No, I have my dream volunteer work.

[Lisa Lazy]

It's not a job is we go, we go, we're going to work.

[Sean Wellington]

So. So yeah, we have versions of ourselves that show up appropriately in a work setting.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Appropriately.

[Sean Wellington]

Right, right, right.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah, right. But like so you don't get fired.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, right. But I. I try to be open about my stuff that I've gone through in part for me, in part for others. But I haven't talked. I wouldn't tell you everything. Some of it may be just like why would you tell her that? It makes no sense. But like the thing like there's, there's about my life actually brought up here. I guarantee you it is easier for a man to tell he wanted he was thinking about killing himself and to say he's broken in debt. I guarantee you it's easier for a man to say he wanted to kill himself and say he can't have an erection.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Erection.

[Sean Wellington]

You want to get real now? I can have an erection. For what it's worth, ladies, just so. No, I'm just, I'm just saying like we think suicide's the thing, the most taboo thing. There's actually other stuff that we're even less inclined to talk about. I'm, I've. I'm north there.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

I'm north of 50, baby. And I have no savings. I have no IR, whatever the hell it is. I have no plan. I gotta get this done because this guy's not probably me. I'm not stupid either.

[Unidentified Female Host]

No, you're actually a very intelligent human.

[Sean Wellington]

I know where, I know where this is going. I know where this is going. So it motivates me to move more and work more. But this probably doesn't get it done end well. I don't know. I don't mean suicide. I just mean like it could be the 68 year old guy with no family or friend. Like what happens to that guy? We don't have a place for those people.

[Lisa Lazy]

He gets a lot of cats. I don't know man. Because I have a chance to be an Italian greyhound lady.

[Sean Wellington]

Oh man, I'm telling you, I don't know if there's a site called sugarmama.com but if there is, ladies.

[Lisa Lazy]

Oh my God.

[Sean Wellington]

That's like I am telling you the most likely, likely outcome for Me in the next 10 years is it's going to be an older rich woman who wants someone who listens well and doesn't have a high interest in sex. That I'm telling you, the art side, like, it's not about sex. It's about, like, can you.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Just being her.

[Sean Wellington]

Being company. And I'm super rich, and My husband died 10 years ago, and I'm a.

[Unidentified Female Host]

There you go.

[Lisa Lazy]

I like your.

[Sean Wellington]

But I'm gonna be like. That's like me being kind of like a cabana boy.

[Lisa Lazy]

Listen, last question. Yeah. And I know what it's going to be. Well, actually, I don't. I don't know with you, actually. All right, what do you wish we

[Unidentified Female Host]

were conversing more about? What conversations do we need to keep having or having more of?

[Sean Wellington]

What do you think it was going to be?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Well, I figured it would be about suicide, suicidal ideation. But it sounds like you've got some other things that we could be talking about, too.

[Sean Wellington]

I think we need to be talking about how we talk.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Damn, that's good.

[Sean Wellington]

Let's go meta.

[Unidentified Female Host]

That's good.

[Sean Wellington]

I think we need to be talking about how we talk. And under that umbrella are all these words that some of them I lack, and some of that I don't. You know, sometimes I said, like, the word listening. Word listening is fine. But just how do we engage? How do we talk? How do we do it?

[Unidentified Female Host]

That's where you come in. Because you can help people with that. Yeah, I could help that.

[Sean Wellington]

If they want help. And then. And they're willing to. And they're willing to change a little bit.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Yeah. Oh, you got to work with people that want to change, man. It's really difficult to pull people. You can't pull them.

[Sean Wellington]

It's hard, though, because I wish. I sometimes wish I could just be a fly in the wall and hear their conversations and be like, come here. I don't want you to have that luxury. So it's actually hard of you, for example, Lisa, like me and this hot young guy I'm married to. We are always.

[Lisa Lazy]

Actually. He looks like a young Gerard Butler.

[Sean Wellington]

Just saying, oh, we're fighting. It's like. It's all right. I can give you some thoughts. And it's actually like, I want to be in the rooms, and I can't. It's. I think it's hard. And if I'm in the room and you're. Then you're performing for me.

[Lisa Lazy]

Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

So to get.

[Lisa Lazy]

Because then I know you're like, somebody else is there. Right.

[Unidentified Female Host]

So you're not gonna be real. I'll be real with my spouse in a way that I'm not gonna be real.

[Sean Wellington]

One of the things I want to do when I do a, When I, When I, when someone I. If I could actually get on a stage and I've been on a few stages and that was more for like my storytelling world is I want to be able to play some stuff from the podcast, with my guest permission, of course, and say, here's what I did. Well, here's what I did bad. Or, or, or they're talking. What would you say here? Like, I wanted to get it as real, as close to the moment as we possibly can. Because one way presentations are like really removed from that. Yes, you can talk about things and yes, you can make people aware and then they leave and go back to their lives. And unless you have a follow up

[Unidentified Female Host]

talking to them, though.

[Sean Wellington]

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's literally is designed. Unless we form a circle and it's in the round and I invite people on stage. An immersive experience. Sure, we can do. I mean, I used to do stuff in theater that was this immersive type of thing where I was in it talking to people. I loved it.

[Unidentified Female Host]

You know, that's what I went to school for was performance and storytelling.

[Sean Wellington]

Is that right?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Full scholarship. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

You're talking to an award winning storyteller, by the way.

[Lisa Lazy]

Every goddamn agent, Georgia, for like a year.

[Sean Wellington]

You're what?

[Lisa Lazy]

On the circuit?

[Unidentified Female Host]

Storytelling circuit.

[Sean Wellington]

Like, oh, you were doing like folklore. Yeah, yeah, I was doing, I was doing personal narrative, which is the redheaded stepchild. But nonetheless,

[Lisa Lazy]

my grandma's story was real hard.

[Unidentified Female Host]

She.

[Lisa Lazy]

She got murdered in a DV situation. They didn't like that story.

[Sean Wellington]

That and my, my organization, which kind of started also during the pandemic. 2020 was a great year for me actually. And actually there's a lot of people I talked to who were on my podcast. They thrived in 2020. Isn't that crazy? People automatically assume that it would be the worst thing. There was more isolation. I think there was a peak in suicide, suicide attempts, even though those are very hard to measure. But from some of my guests, they were like, the world slowed down, quieted.

[Unidentified Female Host]

We loved it.

[Sean Wellington]

I, I created everything in 2020.

[Unidentified Female Host]

It took us forever to come back out because he's hot.

[Lisa Lazy]

I'm in menopause, dude.

[Sean Wellington]

How hard is it to be. How hard is it to say, how's up with a really hot guy?

[Lisa Lazy]

And look, his biggest fear is people dying on him. And he married a chick with a congenital blood disorder. Fresh out of institution.

[Unidentified Female Host]

I know. God love him.

[Lisa Lazy]

He's a.

[Sean Wellington]

You gotta.

[Lisa Lazy]

He's a good one. He's a good one. Yeah.

[Sean Wellington]

So Lisa in Georgia? Might be. I'll let her reach out to me, a podcast guest of mine in the upcoming.

[Unidentified Female Host]

Whenever I'm down, I'm down for. All right, friend, listen, we gotta wrap this up. Friends out there, remember, we always close out and ask you the same question. What are you performing in order to survive? And what might dropping that mask roller performance do for you? I'm Lisa. This is Sean, our new friend. When you find the answer, welcome to the Edge. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Sean.

[Sean Wellington]

Thank you.