Deborah Willis on her seminal history of Black photography, reissued 25 years later

Summary

---

NPR's Book of the Day

Episode: Deborah Willis on her seminal history of Black photography, reissued 25 years later
Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Michelle Martin (interview), Andrew Limbong (intro/outro)
Guest: Dr. Deborah Willis

---

Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the reissue of Deborah Willis's foundational work, Reflections in Black: A History of Black Photographers, 1840 to the Present. Originally published in 2000, this edition arrives 25 years later with 130 new images and a renewed relevance in the digital age of photography. Willis, a MacArthur Genius Award-winning author, photographer, and NYU professor, discusses her lifelong mission to recover and celebrate the history of Black photographers—voices and images long omitted from standard histories—and explores how new generations can learn from this visual archive.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins of Willis’s Interest in Photography (02:59–04:34)

• Growing up surrounded by imagery:

  • Willis shares how her Philadelphia childhood, in her mother’s beauty shop decorated with magazines like Ebony, Jet, Tan, alongside mainstream publications, sparked her fascination with images and representation.
  • She describes her father as "a serious amateur" photographer and a tailor, influences that entwined visual storytelling, fashion, and Black identity.

• Quote:

  “My mom had, as I used to call it, the black color wheel of magazines... I was always looking at images as a child.” – Deborah Willis (02:59)

2. The Research that Changed Photographic History (03:34–04:56)

• Undergraduate beginnings:

  • The book began as a college research project, driven by the absence of Black photographers in academic resources.
  • Willis scoured city and Black directories, using the notation “colored photographers” to locate individuals for her undergraduate paper—discovering and cataloguing works housed in major libraries.

• Publishing the seminal book:

  • A pivotal moment came when publisher Richard Newman encouraged Willis to expand her research into a book, assembling images and biographies left out of public knowledge.

• Quote:

  “There were no black photographers in the history books. I said, where are the black photographers?” – Deborah Willis (03:39)

3. The Power and Politics of Black Representation (04:56–07:23)

• Historical agency through the camera:

  • Willis and Martin discuss Frederick Douglass, one of the most photographed men of his era.
  • Douglass used photography “as biography,” understanding the need for dignified, humanizing self-images to counter the media’s degradation of Black people.

• The importance of positive images:

  • African American magazines like Ebony and Tan showcased Black success, luxury, and "the beauty of Black life," refusing to be defined by narratives of oppression alone.

• Quote:

  “Photography was biography. [Douglass] was really concerned about the images of black people that degraded black people... making sure that they were human and seeing that.” – Deborah Willis (05:14)

4. Documenting Painful Truths and Lost Archives (06:07–07:04)

• Confronting painful images:

  • Willis discusses seeing photographs such as the iconic image of an enslaved man’s scarred back—the importance of bearing witness to “the evidence of a lived experience and a horrific lived experience.”
  • She reveals how essential archives, like W.E.B. Du Bois’s 1900 Paris Exposition exhibition, were sometimes deemed lost or invisible, only to be rediscovered decades later thanks to Black archivists.

• Quote:

  “I was able to have access to those images after being told they didn’t exist. They didn’t exist because they weren’t processed.” – Deborah Willis (06:41)

5. The New Edition: Reframing Narratives (07:34–07:55)

• Rethinking Black visual histories:

  • For the revised edition, Willis sought to “retell the story” by adding new images and perspectives—aligning with poet Amiri Baraka’s notion that “the imagination gives us possibilities.”

• Quote:

  “How do I retell the story? How do we reinvent it, creating new narratives about their lives or imagine narratives? Like Amiri Baraka says, the imagination gives us possibilities.” – Deborah Willis (07:37)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Michelle Obama’s photograph in the Bronx:

  “The hug... the embrace. And I find that just fascinating. Her eyes are closed, so you feel the sense of connection, the way she’s holding on to this older veteran.” – Deborah Willis (02:14)

• On the American flag’s repetition:

  “It is because they’re asking questions about... believing in their citizenship and their rights.” – Deborah Willis (02:52)

• On the importance of celebratory Black images:

  “It was important that photographers were there to document not only the activism, but also... the beauty of black life.” – Deborah Willis (07:23)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:15 – Introduction to Deborah Willis and her role at NYU
• 02:14 – Discussion of the Michelle Obama photograph and recurring themes
• 02:59 – Willis’s childhood influences and early exposure to Black imagery
• 03:39 – The book’s origin as an undergrad research project
• 04:37 – The transition from research to published volume
• 05:14 – Frederick Douglass’s understanding of photography’s power
• 06:07 – Processing images of violence and lost archives
• 07:23 – The importance of images showing joy, success, and beauty
• 07:37 – Willis on “reframing” for the new edition

---

Conclusion

The conversation with Deborah Willis serves as both a testament to her trailblazing documentation of Black photographers and a reminder of how images can tell overlooked, vital stories about identity, resistance, and celebration. With the reissue of Reflections in Black, Willis not only expands the historical archive but challenges all listeners (and viewers) to reconsider how photography shapes both our past and present.

---

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Deborah Willis photography book Reflections in A History of black photographers, 1840 to the present is a pretty seminal text. It came out back in 2000, and up until then, black photographers weren't really getting their due in the history books, and Willis, a photographer, curator and historian, had something to say about that. The book is now being re released at a time when photography as a whole has really changed. NPR's Michelle Martin spoke with Willis about why she started the project in the first place and what it still has to teachers today. That's coming up.

[Commercial Announcer]

This message comes from Warby Parker Prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Glasses designed in house from premium material starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.

[Michelle Martin]

For decades, Deborah Willis has been one of the country's foremost authorities on black photography. The MacArthur Genius Award winner has dedicated her career to unearthing, cataloging and showcasing black photographers and photographic images of black people. This November, her seminal publication, reflections in A History of black photographers, 1840 to the present, has been reissued after a quarter century with 130 new images and a gallery show inspired by the book. I dropped by the busy hallways at the Tisch School of the Arts at New York University, where she leads the photo department to see the show and hear about some of her favorite images.

[Deborah Willis]

This is Michelle Obama in the Bronx hugging someone in the community there, just giving support for veterans, military veterans. So that's part of it.

[Michelle Martin]

Interesting. Michelle Obama has been so photographed. I was curious why this is the image that appealed to you.

[Deborah Willis]

The hug. Oh, the hug, you know, the embrace. And I find that just fascinating. Her eyes are closed, so you feel the sense of connection, the way that she's holding on to this older veteran. Not her face, just her gesture was something that I felt was really important in that way.

[Michelle Martin]

It's interesting how often the American flag features in these photographers work.

[Deborah Willis]

It is because they're asking questions about.

[Michelle Martin]

You know, what's the relationship between us and Right.

[Deborah Willis]

But also about, you know, believing in their citizenship and their rights.

[Michelle Martin]

To learn more about her in the book, we moved to a slightly quieter Space where I asked her how her interest in photography began.

[Deborah Willis]

I grew up in Philadelphia, in North Philly. My mom had a beauty shop. My mom had, as I used to call it, the black color wheel of magazines. Ebony, Jet, Tan. But also they had Life, look and National Geographic. So I was always looking at images as a child. My father was a amateur photographer, serious amateur. My father was also a policeman, and he also had a tailor shop. So fashion and dress fascinated me.

[Michelle Martin]

Is it true that this book actually started as a research project for an undergrad paper?

[Deborah Willis]

Yes. There were no black photographers in the history books. I said, where are the black photographers? And I knew there was the black photographers annual books that were circulating in New York and around a number of black photographers.

[Michelle Martin]

But also Ebony, Jett, Ebony, Jet, the magazines that you mentioned, iconic in the black community. You could not go into a barbershop, beauty salon, any black commercial space without seeing these magazines. Somebody was taking those pictures.

[Deborah Willis]

Someone was taking. And I knew it. And I just started reading black directories, city directories. And because of segregation in the 19th century, I was able to identify with the asterisk that said colored photographers. I was able. With all of the names that I compiled with my undergraduate paper, I was able to find the images that were at the Schomburg and categorize them and create portfolios for each photographer.

[Michelle Martin]

How did it become this monumental project?

[Deborah Willis]

There's. I called him my publishing angel. His name was Richard Newman. And he said, how would you like to do a book on black photographers? And I said, well, I have this and that. And he says, well, send it to me. And he read it. And he said, let's put this together and find the photographs, add to it. And that's how it started.

[Michelle Martin]

Even before photography was accessible to everybody, which it is now. You have camera and your phone. Frederick Douglass was. I think he was one of the most photographed people.

[Deborah Willis]

That's what we found of his era.

[Michelle Martin]

What do you think he understood about the importance of being photographed?

[Deborah Willis]

I believe in reading his words, that photography was biography. He was really concerned about the images of black people that degraded black people. And he wanted the images to see his self portraits. That was in collaboration with a photographer that these. That also is about humanity in terms of making sure that they were human and seeing that.

[Michelle Martin]

And also it's interesting, you kind of. But there are also, you know, famous photographs not taken by black people, but taken for other purposes that show just the intensity of the degradation of the slavery experience. I'm thinking about this famous image of an enslaved man who's back is just crisscrossed with scars from being whipped. And I just wonder, when you see an image like that, what do you see? How do you experience it?

[Deborah Willis]

I think it's the evidence of a lived experience and a horrific lived experience. And these human property images were on display to degrade black people. They were also placed in world fairs. And that's why when I heard about years ago that W.E.B. du Bois organized an exhibition at the 1900 Paris Exposition, I went to the Library of Congress looking at his nose and that it didn't exist. And then 20 years later, someone who worked in the Library of Congress who was cataloging photographs, a young black man, found the box of images. And I was able to have access to those images after being told they didn't exist. They didn't exist because they weren't processed. And Du Bois also knew the importance of photography, and he always asked, why aren't more black men studying photography also, too?

[Michelle Martin]

You know, I'm thinking about a magazine like Ebony or Tan. There have been others, too, which existed to show that black people lived luxurious lives as well, that it wasn't just a life of toil. But, you know, remember the celebrities? You know, it was a big deal to see them with their furs, their cars, their houses.

[Deborah Willis]

It was important that photographers were there to document not only the activism, but also not only the mourning but the beauty of black life.

[Michelle Martin]

How did you think about this reframed edition?

[Deborah Willis]

When I started thinking about this book, how do I retell the story? How do we reinvent it, creating new narratives about their lives or imagine narratives? Like Amiri Baraka says, the imagination gives us possibilities. And so that's something that I was considering in looking at these photographs.

[Michelle Martin]

Professor Deborah Willis is the author of Reflections in A History of black photographers, 1840 to the present. Its gallery show, Reflections in Black A Reframing, is on display at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts until December 21st. Professor Willis, thank you so much.

[Deborah Willis]

Thank you.

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, Andrew here, The host of NPR's Book of the Day podcast. And yeah, I love new books, but there's just something about rereading an old favorite on our new limited series, Books We've Loved. We're revisiting some classics from Pride and Prejudice to Dune to Everything in between and talking about why they're worth reading today. Listen to NPR's Books We've Loved right on this podcast feed every Saturday on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Commercial Announcer]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better, like cutting their own hair or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it. Learn [e-mail] this message comes from Vanguard Capturing value in the bond market is not easy. That's why Vanguard offers a suite of over 80 institutional quality bond funds actively managed by a 200 person global team of sector specialists, analysts and traders. They're designed for financial advisors looking to give their clients consistent results year in and year out. See the [e-mail] audio that's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor this message comes.

From Grainger for the ones who get it done, Granger offers access to over a million products and the scale to deliver when and where you need them. The right tools and supplies are never far away. Call clickgranger.com or just stop by.